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	<title>Comments on: Am I a Man Yet?</title>
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		<title>By: Tim Abrahamsen</title>
		<link>http://goodmenproject.com/families/boys/am-i-a-man-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-1038</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Abrahamsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodmenproject.com/?p=4794#comment-1038</guid>
		<description>Your story is really interesting.  If you&#039;ve read any stuff by Robert Bly, he talks about how in many ancient cultures (especially in pre-agricultural ones that still to this day subsist on hunting and gathering), the concepts of the ordeal and initiation were very important in the transition from boy to man.  I think the importance of it is more than just symbolic; going through something extremely difficult gives you confidence that you can do anything, and being ceremonially initiated welcomes you into a community of men, and connection with those who have come before you.  It sounds like this &quot;initiation&quot; you had at camp was like that, but didn&#039;t really connect with the real needs that were there - so it felt hollow, like it was all just a game.  A friend of mine once told me that one of the biggest problems with society today is that &quot;we are a nation of uninitiated men.&quot;  We are untested, unproven, directionless, and we&#039;ve lost the connection to our fathers and elders who in the past would&#039;ve taught us and accepted us into that community.

So is the answer to try to bring back the ordeal and initiation, or to accept that we never really pass a specific point that says, &quot;now I am a man&quot;?  I&#039;d say a combination of both.  I think growing up is a gradual thing, but ceremonies can certainly punctuate it - in my college fraternity, initiation is our most important ceremony, when we accept the new brothers in and swear an oath to support and protect each other.  And when I witness it, year after year, I definitely get the feeling that there is something very fundamental to what it means to be a man going on there.  But then come even more challenges of maturing, accepting leadership, and guiding younger brothers - all which happen gradually.  So I&#039;d say a mix of both.

-Tim

PS - I&#039;m also an Eagle Scout.  Troop 219, St. Pete Florida.  Be prepared.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your story is really interesting.  If you&#8217;ve read any stuff by Robert Bly, he talks about how in many ancient cultures (especially in pre-agricultural ones that still to this day subsist on hunting and gathering), the concepts of the ordeal and initiation were very important in the transition from boy to man.  I think the importance of it is more than just symbolic; going through something extremely difficult gives you confidence that you can do anything, and being ceremonially initiated welcomes you into a community of men, and connection with those who have come before you.  It sounds like this &#8220;initiation&#8221; you had at camp was like that, but didn&#8217;t really connect with the real needs that were there &#8211; so it felt hollow, like it was all just a game.  A friend of mine once told me that one of the biggest problems with society today is that &#8220;we are a nation of uninitiated men.&#8221;  We are untested, unproven, directionless, and we&#8217;ve lost the connection to our fathers and elders who in the past would&#8217;ve taught us and accepted us into that community.</p>
<p>So is the answer to try to bring back the ordeal and initiation, or to accept that we never really pass a specific point that says, &#8220;now I am a man&#8221;?  I&#8217;d say a combination of both.  I think growing up is a gradual thing, but ceremonies can certainly punctuate it &#8211; in my college fraternity, initiation is our most important ceremony, when we accept the new brothers in and swear an oath to support and protect each other.  And when I witness it, year after year, I definitely get the feeling that there is something very fundamental to what it means to be a man going on there.  But then come even more challenges of maturing, accepting leadership, and guiding younger brothers &#8211; all which happen gradually.  So I&#8217;d say a mix of both.</p>
<p>-Tim</p>
<p>PS &#8211; I&#8217;m also an Eagle Scout.  Troop 219, St. Pete Florida.  Be prepared.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Graves</title>
		<link>http://goodmenproject.com/families/boys/am-i-a-man-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-1037</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Graves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodmenproject.com/?p=4794#comment-1037</guid>
		<description>I always assumed at some point I&#039;d &quot;feel&quot; grown up - but with 4 kids and an amazing wife, job i love, and house I somehow manage to pay for - that feeling hasn&#039;t happened yet</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always assumed at some point I&#8217;d &#8220;feel&#8221; grown up &#8211; but with 4 kids and an amazing wife, job i love, and house I somehow manage to pay for &#8211; that feeling hasn&#8217;t happened yet</p>
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		<title>By: Rydal</title>
		<link>http://goodmenproject.com/families/boys/am-i-a-man-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-1036</link>
		<dc:creator>Rydal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 02:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodmenproject.com/?p=4794#comment-1036</guid>
		<description>If you don&#039;t know whether or not you are a man then nobody can tell you.  You aren&#039;t going to know it through external validation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you don&#8217;t know whether or not you are a man then nobody can tell you.  You aren&#8217;t going to know it through external validation.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://goodmenproject.com/families/boys/am-i-a-man-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-1035</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodmenproject.com/?p=4794#comment-1035</guid>
		<description>You are an Eagle! How are you asking this question?

I don’t really know you all that well Mr. Chambers, but if you are an Eagle, then you are a man by all definitions. Most of the males in America you will come across are not even close to this level of manliness. I’d say you are more of a man than 83% of the males out there (26 million veterans/active duty, I figure service makes you a man too).

You are certainly more of a man than ‘The Situation’ or any of that unfortunate part of our culture. These pseudo-men are fickle and lie to their family and friends in order to look cool or get some material item. They lack any sense of true friendship and undependable, skipping work due to hangovers. They are selfish and lazy, barely lifting a finger to help with chores or friends move. They call people racial slurs and ridicule missteps and faults. They fail to be chivalrous to their fellow man, cutting in lines, laughing at people when they are down, fighting and drinking to excess among strangers. They mock the hard work of others and vandalize the public areas. They ignore and disrespect their bosses, sleeping with the wives of other men. They are sour, seeing the bad side of life instead of rejoicing in the beauty of existence, complaining of the bad choices they made. They are cowards, picking fights only when they have the advantage, running from their responsibilities, scavenging the works of others. They are slobs who waste their money and the money of others, they take loans they cannot repay, they gamble their rent, and they cannot repair their property. They are filled with diseases and wantonly spread them, they appear nice but their beauty is only skin deep. They flaunt responsibility and pray for pity yet remain unreformed.

However, being an Eagle and a man, you are not these things. You are trustworthy; a man tells the truth, is honest, and he keeps his promises; people can depend on him always. You are loyal; a man is is loyal to those to whom loyalty is due. You are helpful, a man cares about other people, helps others without expecting payment or reward, and fulfills his duties to his family by helping at home. You are friendly; a man is a friend to all, a brother to other men, offers his friendship to people of all races, religions, and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own. You are courteous; a man is polite to people of all ages and positions, understands that using good manners makes it easier to get along. You are kind; a man treats others as he wants to be treated, knows there is strength in being gentle, and does not harm or kill any living thing without good reason. You are kind; a man follows the rules of his society, he obeys the laws of his community and country, if he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he seeks to have them changed in an orderly way. You are Cheerful; a man looks for the bright side of life, cheerfully does tasks that come his way and tries his best to make others happy, too. You are thrifty; a man works to pay his way and to help others, saves for the future, protects and conserves natural resources, and is careful in his use of time and property. You are brave; a man faces danger even if he is afraid. You are Clean; a man keeps his body and mind fit, chooses friends who also live by high standards, avoids profanity and pornography (worse than simple nudity), helps keep his home and community clean. You are Reverent; a man is reverent toward God, the universe, or the flying spaghetti monster, is faithful in his religious duties, and respects the beliefs of others. (Taken from: http://www.troop97.net/ideals.htm)

I hope to have convinced you that by virtue of being an Eagle you are a man without any doubt. Let me further enumerate. To be something, there has to be a counter point to it. On to off, ying to yang, light to dark, and so on. Therefore to be a man, you have to not be something else. ‘The Situation’ believes that to be a man, you have to not be a woman. That the man’s counter is the female. This is false. It is the adult not the adolescent that makes a man. To be a man, you must not be a boy. Man to boy, not man to woman.

Let’s be clear though, you are a man. The simple fact that you worry about being a man is enough to make you one. The cast of the ‘Jersey Shore’, Spencer Pratt, Glenn Beck, most office drones, frat boys, these males wouldn’t even conceive of asking this question of themselves. They sit down at night and ask if they are happy. A man asks if he has done well that day, and smiles because he has.

Other resources:
* http://artofmanliness.com/    a fantastic resource
* http://www.esquire.com/    for the swagger
* http://jezebel.com/    for the woman’s take
* http://www.eaglescout.org/    for a reminder

**The Eagle Scout Oath**
I (re)affirm my allegiance to the three promises of the Scout Oath.
I thoughtfully recognize and take upon myself the obligations and responsibilities of an Eagle Scout. On my honor, I will do my best to make my training an example and my status and my influence count strongly for better Scouting and for better citizenship in my troop, in my community, and in my contacts with other people.
To this I pledge my sacred honor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are an Eagle! How are you asking this question?</p>
<p>I don’t really know you all that well Mr. Chambers, but if you are an Eagle, then you are a man by all definitions. Most of the males in America you will come across are not even close to this level of manliness. I’d say you are more of a man than 83% of the males out there (26 million veterans/active duty, I figure service makes you a man too).</p>
<p>You are certainly more of a man than ‘The Situation’ or any of that unfortunate part of our culture. These pseudo-men are fickle and lie to their family and friends in order to look cool or get some material item. They lack any sense of true friendship and undependable, skipping work due to hangovers. They are selfish and lazy, barely lifting a finger to help with chores or friends move. They call people racial slurs and ridicule missteps and faults. They fail to be chivalrous to their fellow man, cutting in lines, laughing at people when they are down, fighting and drinking to excess among strangers. They mock the hard work of others and vandalize the public areas. They ignore and disrespect their bosses, sleeping with the wives of other men. They are sour, seeing the bad side of life instead of rejoicing in the beauty of existence, complaining of the bad choices they made. They are cowards, picking fights only when they have the advantage, running from their responsibilities, scavenging the works of others. They are slobs who waste their money and the money of others, they take loans they cannot repay, they gamble their rent, and they cannot repair their property. They are filled with diseases and wantonly spread them, they appear nice but their beauty is only skin deep. They flaunt responsibility and pray for pity yet remain unreformed.</p>
<p>However, being an Eagle and a man, you are not these things. You are trustworthy; a man tells the truth, is honest, and he keeps his promises; people can depend on him always. You are loyal; a man is is loyal to those to whom loyalty is due. You are helpful, a man cares about other people, helps others without expecting payment or reward, and fulfills his duties to his family by helping at home. You are friendly; a man is a friend to all, a brother to other men, offers his friendship to people of all races, religions, and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own. You are courteous; a man is polite to people of all ages and positions, understands that using good manners makes it easier to get along. You are kind; a man treats others as he wants to be treated, knows there is strength in being gentle, and does not harm or kill any living thing without good reason. You are kind; a man follows the rules of his society, he obeys the laws of his community and country, if he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he seeks to have them changed in an orderly way. You are Cheerful; a man looks for the bright side of life, cheerfully does tasks that come his way and tries his best to make others happy, too. You are thrifty; a man works to pay his way and to help others, saves for the future, protects and conserves natural resources, and is careful in his use of time and property. You are brave; a man faces danger even if he is afraid. You are Clean; a man keeps his body and mind fit, chooses friends who also live by high standards, avoids profanity and pornography (worse than simple nudity), helps keep his home and community clean. You are Reverent; a man is reverent toward God, the universe, or the flying spaghetti monster, is faithful in his religious duties, and respects the beliefs of others. (Taken from: <a href="http://www.troop97.net/ideals.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.troop97.net/ideals.htm</a>)</p>
<p>I hope to have convinced you that by virtue of being an Eagle you are a man without any doubt. Let me further enumerate. To be something, there has to be a counter point to it. On to off, ying to yang, light to dark, and so on. Therefore to be a man, you have to not be something else. ‘The Situation’ believes that to be a man, you have to not be a woman. That the man’s counter is the female. This is false. It is the adult not the adolescent that makes a man. To be a man, you must not be a boy. Man to boy, not man to woman.</p>
<p>Let’s be clear though, you are a man. The simple fact that you worry about being a man is enough to make you one. The cast of the ‘Jersey Shore’, Spencer Pratt, Glenn Beck, most office drones, frat boys, these males wouldn’t even conceive of asking this question of themselves. They sit down at night and ask if they are happy. A man asks if he has done well that day, and smiles because he has.</p>
<p>Other resources:<br />
* <a href="http://artofmanliness.com/" rel="nofollow">http://artofmanliness.com/</a>    a fantastic resource<br />
* <a href="http://www.esquire.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.esquire.com/</a>    for the swagger<br />
* <a href="http://jezebel.com/" rel="nofollow">http://jezebel.com/</a>    for the woman’s take<br />
* <a href="http://www.eaglescout.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.eaglescout.org/</a>    for a reminder</p>
<p>**The Eagle Scout Oath**<br />
I (re)affirm my allegiance to the three promises of the Scout Oath.<br />
I thoughtfully recognize and take upon myself the obligations and responsibilities of an Eagle Scout. On my honor, I will do my best to make my training an example and my status and my influence count strongly for better Scouting and for better citizenship in my troop, in my community, and in my contacts with other people.<br />
To this I pledge my sacred honor.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://goodmenproject.com/families/boys/am-i-a-man-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-1034</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodmenproject.com/?p=4794#comment-1034</guid>
		<description>I sure thought by Forty I&#039;d have it figured out. Went back to school to get advanced degree and ended up moving backwards career wise. Going through a divorce now and really trying to figure it out. Becoming a father was the pivotal moment and then reevaluating things now with gut wrenching uncertainty  as I navigate the divorce and all that that entails with broken visions for how fatherhood and consequently my own manhood would play out. You begin to become a man when you wake up at forty and think &quot;what the hell happened to my 30&#039;s&quot; and then begin to accept it and refigure out what is really important for the rest of your life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sure thought by Forty I&#8217;d have it figured out. Went back to school to get advanced degree and ended up moving backwards career wise. Going through a divorce now and really trying to figure it out. Becoming a father was the pivotal moment and then reevaluating things now with gut wrenching uncertainty  as I navigate the divorce and all that that entails with broken visions for how fatherhood and consequently my own manhood would play out. You begin to become a man when you wake up at forty and think &#8220;what the hell happened to my 30&#8242;s&#8221; and then begin to accept it and refigure out what is really important for the rest of your life.</p>
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		<title>By: suzanne</title>
		<link>http://goodmenproject.com/families/boys/am-i-a-man-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-1033</link>
		<dc:creator>suzanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodmenproject.com/?p=4794#comment-1033</guid>
		<description>Girls are told they are women the day they first menstruate.  Trust me, that&#039;s  confusing as hell because becoming one&#039;s gender is about becoming one&#039;s self ~ and there&#039;s no age for that.  However, there is a voice that emerges as your own and we&#039;re reading yours.  Well done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Girls are told they are women the day they first menstruate.  Trust me, that&#8217;s  confusing as hell because becoming one&#8217;s gender is about becoming one&#8217;s self ~ and there&#8217;s no age for that.  However, there is a voice that emerges as your own and we&#8217;re reading yours.  Well done.</p>
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		<title>By: Darury</title>
		<link>http://goodmenproject.com/families/boys/am-i-a-man-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-1032</link>
		<dc:creator>Darury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodmenproject.com/?p=4794#comment-1032</guid>
		<description>To paraphrase an old Matt Groenig Cartoon (Life in Hell):  You know you&#039;re a man when you wake up one morning, look in the mirror and realize you sure as hell aren&#039;t a kid anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To paraphrase an old Matt Groenig Cartoon (Life in Hell):  You know you&#8217;re a man when you wake up one morning, look in the mirror and realize you sure as hell aren&#8217;t a kid anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: David Wise</title>
		<link>http://goodmenproject.com/families/boys/am-i-a-man-yet/comment-page-1/#comment-1031</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodmenproject.com/?p=4794#comment-1031</guid>
		<description>From what I gather in some American circles, the things that define you as a man most are: marriage, procreating and a career. If you don&#039;t have all these things lined up, you&#039;re somehow less than a man to some people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I gather in some American circles, the things that define you as a man most are: marriage, procreating and a career. If you don&#8217;t have all these things lined up, you&#8217;re somehow less than a man to some people.</p>
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