Alyssa Royse was enjoying the year-end round up of sexy male celebrity bulges—until she realized that this is sexual objectification, just like what she fights against every day.
I will admit right upfront that I totally enjoyed starting my morning by lying in bed with a hot cup of coffee and looking at pictures of men’s penises outlined by clothing that accentuated the obvious in just the right way. I now know with relative certainty that Jon Hamm is circumcised and his penis is bigger than the penises I enjoy the most. Also, some Swedish Olympic athlete appears to poses a penis of proportion and design that I dream about —average sized, not circumcised.
But as I was flipping through the images on The Frisky’s list of The 12 Biggest Bulges of 2012, I began to feel a little uncomfortable, and not just because my sweetie had just started his 24-hour shift at the fire station, leaving me to deal with Swedish penis fantasies on my own. It bothered me because these men did not ask to have their penises judged and evaluated when they were simply walking down the street.
It went deeper than that, actually. I’ve spent a lot of my life trying to combat sex-negative images about women’s bodies in the media, such as the seemingly non-stop lists of celebrities with the best butts or hottest tits—lists that objectify women by focusing only on their sexy bits, and only those that fit a narrow description of what’s “hot”.
And there I was, doing the same thing to Joe Manganiello.
For the most part, these guys were just out doing their thing. Jon Hamm was walking down the street, not posing. There were some rowers rowing, runners running, rock stars doing whatever weird thing it is they do. I don’t have any idea what a Channing Tatum is, or what he was doing, but he was in there too. David Beckham was posing, but he was wearing a modesty panel, so we couldn’t really tell what he was packing. (But I’ll admit, I’m an ab girl, so I didn’t really care.)
The point is, they were not asking to have their junk judged any more than bikini-clad celebs on vacation are. Yet when candid photos of women in bikinis are published and judged, there is tremendous outcry about how women are objectified and treated in the media: about how wrong it is to do that to us, about how it harms our self-esteem and creates unrealistic expectations. All of which I believe, in every bone and fiber of my body.
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So where was the outcry at men being objectified this way? I thought I’d look for some in the comments on the article. None. I thought I’d look on Facebook. None. So I posted it on my own wall and asked about the double standard.
As I (unfortunately) expected, there was a lot of suggestion that it’s okay to do it to guys because: A) they do it to us, B) it doesn’t bother them, C) men don’t fear for their safety around women, and D) men like being known for their prodigious packages.
I’m not sure I buy all of that. Or any of it, really.
“But he started it” has never made retaliatory action okay. Nor does it change the fundamental dynamic. If what we want is LESS sexual objectification of people and a more holistic approach to appreciating humans for the complex creatures that they are, then this is counterproductive.
I’m pretty sure it does bother some men. After all, men are humans too. It hasn’t served most men well to be constantly told that to be the best, they have to be strong, rich, fast, handsome, and emotionless. Feminism did a terrific job of illustrating how women are much more than the damsel in distress in need of rescue by Prince Charming. YAY! However, we haven’t really tackled the Prince Charming part of this fallacy, and right now, the Prince Charming is fucking us all. I’m curious if when men see things like this, it has the same impact on their body image that critiques of female bodies have on women.
I think there is more to a sense of safety in the world than just knowing no one is going to rape you. (And let’s be clear, women do rape men, and it’s wrong when they do it too.) Safety, in a larger sense, means that you feel accepted, like you will be protected, like you don’t have to prove and defend yourself all the time. It seems to me that men have it way easier in this regard. However, making them feel less safe and secure isn’t going to make the world more safe and secure for us as women, because safety and respect is not a zero-sum game.
If we’re not choosing to show them off, our genitals really need to be off the table for discussion. They are, arguably, our most private and intimate parts. They, and the things we do with them, are the parts that society has instilled the most shame on as it is. As horrible as we are to women in the media—and we are horrible—I have never seen a woman’s labia openly critiqued. And that’s what this is.
I have talked to hundreds of men who have told me that they are afraid that their penis isn’t good enough. And let’s be clear, by good enough, we mean big enough. Because that is all that the media talks about when it comes to men’s penises.
So no, the question isn’t whether Jon Hamm feels good about the world knowing he has a huge penis, the question is: how does our myopic praise of that huge penis make other men feel? And what does it add to our culture of mixed messages about sex and masculinity?
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Ultimately, I am the most bothered by the double standard and how counterproductive it feels.
I like The Frisky, and I really like Amelia McDonnell-Perry who wrote the piece. She commented on my Facebook post that it was just a silly end of the year round-up, no big deal, and she’s not wrong. But all those round-ups of women’s bodies are met with uproar.
It feels a bit like coming down from the high road. As my mother-in-law says, “There’s no point in fighting with pigs, you both get dirty and they like the mud.”
All of which leaves me with a lot of questions, and very few answers—at least partly because I’m not a guy. So I thought I’d ask you guys, the men of The Good Men Project.
Is turnabout fair play? Does this level the playing field, or make it harder to play on?
Is there much difference between that photo of Jon Hamm and an upskirt shot of a girl on a bus?
Do images and messages like this bother men? If so, how?
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Maybe we all need to relax a bit. Maybe openly judging bodies is a step towards accepting that we all have them. Maybe if we get comfortable here, then we can look at more diverse bodies? Then more diverse gender expression?
I really don’t know. All I know is that it didn’t seem any more “right” to me than all those posts about women’s bodies. And that awareness totally ruined my fantasy about the Swedish dude with his average-sized, uncircumcised penis.
Which gets me back to thinking that maybe more awareness, and more discussion about these complex issues, is what is needed in order to create a world in which we all feel safe expressing ourselves, our gender and our sexuality in a way that creates pleasure rather than harm.
I know I’m an over thinker. Easily one of the best things about having smart friends like Amelia is that they make me think, they trigger perspectives in me that I might not otherwise see. So I don’t want to go making devils out of people whom we all know mean no harm. But I do think we need to continually look at an question that things that we just do out of habit, because those habits eventually create societal patterns—or at least reflect them.
For a penis-free end-of-year list from The Frisky, check out The 12 Best Dressed Men of 2012.
About Alyssa Royse
And the other question wasn’t about how it makes the man with the cock feel, but how the obsession with Jon Hamm’s penis makes other men feel. Does the focus on size as the only indicator of cock worth serve anyone?
Size isn’t the only indicator of worth. There’s also the performance issue.
Also, I fully share in John’s experience about the “attractiveness” of the male body. A lot of women seem to think that “wanting to be attractive” is a flaw, a defect, in a male psyche. It’s a catch 22, if you need assurance that you are attractive as a man, you aren’t!
PS. Tell your friend at Frisky that the Swedish athlete wasn’t in the Olympics. Hint, they don’t have advertising on the number tags there…
I’m a bit older so my perspective is probably a little out of date. I hear that males make up about 25% of people with eating disorders so things have probably changed since my time, but here is my take. Muscles were strength and strength was valued. No one could push you around. I started weightlifting with cans and such when I was about 10 or 11 and started with weights in my early teens. It wasn’t even images of men that started it, but the ads in the back of comic books plus the need to be able to fight. Everyone my age has heard of the 98 pound weakling and don’t let someone kick sand in your face.
The weight lifting actually augmented martial arts. You tracked your performance by exercise, amount of weight, number of sets, and number of repetitions. I started to juice and started really liking the way I looked and I felt strong and fast. I started to measure my muscles to track how they looked as well as how they functioned. I started getting attention from strange women; some wanted and some not. It felt good to feel attractive. I was getting conceited. The women I actually cared about were the ones who set me straight.
When I was younger, I used to worry about penis size. Am I average, above average, or below average? It wasn’t I need to be this big. I remember reading an article where the author asks women to describe the perfect penis. The answers he got back were along the lines of the perfect penis is the one attached to a man who loves and respects me. That and my friends worrying more about the inside than the outside changed my perspective. A female friend even told me that she starts seeing people differently after she gets to know them. She meant in a physical sense. She became more physically attracted to men she felt an emotional attachment to.
There were times I felt sexually harassed and don’t believe that stuff about men not feeling threatened. I’ve been more scared of women than I’ve been with any man. A man I’d just hit. How do I defend myself against a woman when her word will be believed over mine? I know I’m the one getting arrested even if she sexually assaulted me. I think a lot of that supposed lack of fear comes from society teaching men that they are disposable and should be able to handle themselves in a fight. What kind of man are you if you can’t protect yourself against a woman? Of course if you do, you’re getting arrested.
Men are killed at 4 times the rate of women. The streets aren’t any safer for us. We’re just conditioned to believe that a man should be able to defend himself. If you can’t you’re not much of a man and your life wasn’t worth that much in the first place anyway. It’s not courage, but a feeling of disposability.
Two issues prevent these sorts of adds from raising the ire of males: Invisibility and disposability. The reality for the average man is that we will never be looked upon by the larger society and the female members of it specifically as much more than disposable cogs in the overarching infrastructure.
Unless you work in some form of media or athletic area that endorses commercial products the chances of ever being subjected to even small scale objectification are pretty small. There are the female to male sexual harassment cases, but even those impact a very small part of the male workforce.
For the vast majority of men its just not an issue, we just kind of smirk at it, maybe note the double standard, and press on.
Well, speaking as a guy, and a guy that used to be far from the ideal male body image (some 70 pounds overweight), I can tell you that this sort of thing does NOT impact men the same way it appears to impact women. I think there are a LOT of reasons for this, because yes, I agree, the objectification is the same thing. Men are just conditioned to react to this sort of thing differently.
First, lets take this backwards, to childhood. Whenever you talk about the female body image ideals and societal expectations, eventually Barbie gets brought into the discussion, so lets talk about boys toys, specifically superheroes. Comic books often catch criticism for putting women in revealing costumes with unrealistic proportions, but they do the same thing to the men. Over-muscled and clad in spandex head to toe, just about every image in your average superhero comic or cartoon is an objectified male form. Of course, we don’t call it that, we call it the “male power fantasy”.
We men love the “male power fantasy” so much, the entire action movie genre was created. The 80s were filled with muscle-bound shirtless men in “guy movies”, and you never heard a guy walk out saying the movie made him feel helpless or inferior. If anything, those movies, those images, despite the fact that the majority of men consuming that media could ever achieve a result like that without surgical assistance, come out of that experience fired up.
I don’t think men take it as, oh, women/society likes him because he has great abs/huge muscles/a huge package, I think men see stuff like that and say “Yeah, that guy has X going for him, good for him, he is being the best him that he can be. I want to be the best ME that I can be.
Basically, I think this comes down to self-esteem coping mechanisms, and I think men are just much better internally equipped in that regard, on average. Also, society gives men a LOT of options for attracting a woman. We believe we stand a good chance to attract a mate if we are any of the following: tall, handsome, hung, rich, talented, funny, have great hair, or are intelligent.
For women, the list would seem much shorter. They get told that being beautiful is the ONLY way to attract a man. Much more of their self-worth is tied to their appearance.
If a man KNOWS he is physically unattractive, and many of us DO know it, we will focus our attention on some other quality we possess from the above list. We don’t keep beating our self-esteems against the wall by trying to live up to what society says we should look like. We accept that we don’t, and either do our best to make changes, or accept that we don’t and never will, and focus on one of the other desirable qualities in a man.
I don’t think the solution to this problem is to somehow STOP objectifying women, or even to spend time drawing attention to the fact that doing that is wrong. The solution is to start emphasizing the other things women can bring to the table, and telling women that those things are just as valuable as beauty. The reason decrying objectification hasn’t worked, is because there aren’t any replacements for women’s self-worth.
Until you hear men say “well, I know she’s not all that pretty, but shes so smart/funny/talented that I find her very sexy anyway”,
This does bother me, and I feel I have to say so. I am not well endowed, and I know it. What’s even worse is that I can’t even express that without feeling embarrassed.
I was wondering how the penis-objectification felt to people who are outside the median, in either way. I suspect that it is similar to how Victoria’s Secret models trigger feelings of inadequacy in women who are very heavy, but less so in women who are closer – though still a few sizes bigger – to them.
As a sex educator, I can assure you, there are plenty of ways to work with what you’ve got – at both ends of the spectrum. Plenty. (Doing a whole show on that next week, actually.) But also, as someone said earlier in a comment, most of the women I know and have talked to professionally have been very clear that the best penis is the one attached to someone they are wild about.
And then we have this from a woman whose guy is “great” but he’s just too small for her. Sexual compatibility is important to some people, particularly those who are interested in and enjoy having sex. Size matters, for some people.
I think one of the messages that is lost when we talk about there being “plenty of ways to work with what you’ve got” is that your partner needs to also be interested in working with what you’ve got. We should be careful to not universalize our attitudes and preferences to the general public. “Most of the women [you] know and have talked to professionally” are probably interested in making it work, but there are a fair number who aren’t. The percentage of the women a guy might meet where “size” is important is unknowable, but for that percentage a component of being “wild” about someone is clicking sexually with that someone. It’s best to weed those people out early, and improve your sexual skills and attitude so when you do find someone compatible you approach sex in a way that is more likely to enhance both of your experiences.
“Size matters, for some people.”
Nick, Womens Health magazine ran an online survey on Twitter. It recieved over something like 20K responses, and guess what over 70% of the women responding said… SIZE MATTERS. It seems todays woman is puting that old myth “It’s not the size , but how you use it” into retirement. Now, I realize that there are other options for men. If your penis isn’t large , but say your WALLET is, you’ll still do alright(seriously, when’s the last time you saw a plain looking girl in the ‘shotgun’ seat of a Ferrarri?)
Size almost always matters, but that’s because there is a range of tolerances for most people. There are very few women for whom something resembling a baguette is going to be pleasurable. But just as there are women who enjoy cocks on the larger size, there are also women who prefer men on the smaller side and the great many who land somewhere in the middle.
Case in point: The first woman I had sex with had had a few partners before me, and it was through those experiences that she came to discover her preferences. One of her prior boyfriends was on the smaller size (<5"), but she was able to get off using the CAT. Another possessed a member that was so large they couldn't actually have penetrative sex, no matter how they tried to align it. Funny that Alyssa calls it the "Cinderella Cock" as I've always referred to it as the "Goldilocks Cock."
It’s probably a matter of positioning more than size or at least length. Go down on her. You won’t miss. Let her have her’s first. She won’t be that concerned with size then.
Well as a confirmed lover of the old sausage, and having tried as many varieties as time, opportunity and appetite have allowed, I do have to agree that as a general rule bigger is better. Humongous is not much use other than as novelty value. On a personal straw pole of the many guys and gals I have spoken to about la Savaloy I would say the 70% is about right. Of course, after the moment and orgasm has worn off, It is nice to have a human to deal with.
So, in general bigger is better, but Brainy gets Breakfast! P^)
Guys, in my LONG life I have known at least 3 men who were ‘Hung’ (As in, like porn stars!) One was my best friend through high school and after. He actually used to get ‘Creeped Out’ at some of the women who’d stalk him . We coached a Little Leauge team togeather and these women would track him down to the ball field! My wife (Fiance at the time) would get upset, figuring maybe that I would get the ‘left overs’? I told her “Don’t worry, I don’t have what these girls came for!” Another was a friend from work. He was in his early 40′s and his nickname was 81/2. (Hint, it wasn’t his shoesize). Anyway, being he lived upstate, some distance away, he would find a 20 something year old woman to ‘shack up’ with during the week. It was’nt difficult for him. The third was more of a ‘friendly aquantince’ . anyway, Enzos’ uncle owned a ‘Strip Club’ in Queens and basically just about all the dancers had to try Enzo ‘on for size’ So maybe you can understand my sceptisim at the old ‘Size doesn’t matter’ argument.
I’m not saying it doesn’t matter especially for a one night stand or when people just want to hook up, but that’s true for guys who are good looking or physically fit too. I got lots more play when I was younger and buff, but right now old, out of shape, bald, and without an ounce of fashion sense I’ve got a stalker and a friend 17 years younger than I crushing on me. I sincerely doubt that’s lust. It’s an emotional / intellectual attachment they made possibly coupled with younger men today failing to launch as the saying goes.
I sense a follow-up post.
What’s the difference between relationship material and one-night stand material? I suspect that we are all capable of knowing the difference. I have certainly had the occasional “this is just sex” thing with a guy that I had no hopes at all of having a relationship with. But when I fall for a guy, virtually nothing about his physical appearance matters to me. I dated a guy for 2-1/2 years who I was not even remotely attracted to when I met him. Then, slowly, it built. By the time we had sex, I was so wild about him that I THOUGHT nothing would matter. I freely admit that when I finally saw him naked, I wondered if I could do it. And 20 minutes later, I knew I was in it for the long haul. A week later, I was fantasizing about the precise physical traits that had ALMOST (but not quite) turned me off in that instant. Literally, dreaming about them. When the relationship ended, i went back to my generalized aversions. Knowing full well that if I was really into the guy, they wouldn’t matter in the slightest. When I met the man that I am about to marry, I wasn’t sure I could date someone who was shorter than me. But kept going out with him because he is ridiculously awesome. Next thing I knew, I was happily ever after. All of which is to say, yes, if we are engaging with people as human sex toys, it’s possible that the physical is the most important aspect. And that’s fine, as long as everyone is clear about the nature of the interaction. But if our hearts and souls get involved, it’s very likely that the physical becomes almost irrelevant.
All of which is a bit of a digression from the original post. How, if at all, should the media be addressing this? Should we be openly talking about these differences, and can we do so in a sex-positive way that lets us know it’s okay to have sex for the sake of sex, if we are honest, consensual and clear about it. And that the deeper bonds that bind us may change our perception of “sexy” without diminishing the importance of sex and sexual compatibility?
In other words, he wasn’t ‘Well Hung’.
I’m talking about the guy at the beginning
I think she’s saying that at some point it stopped mattering. She seems to be saying the same thing my female friend said when she told me that she sees people differently after she gets to know them. She becomes more physically attracted to a person she has created an emotional attachment too.
Alyssa is more specific as to how this occurs and it seems that she associates the person’s other qualities and her feelings with the person’s physical traits. That’s probably why parents can see their children as beautiful or handsome even when they aren’t by society’s standards of beauty.
“How, if at all, should the media be addressing this? Should we be openly talking about these differences, and can we do so in a sex-positive way that lets us know it’s okay to have sex for the sake of sex, if we are honest, consensual and clear about it”
Start telling women that as they give so shall they recieve. They don’t get to complain about shallow men and how they (the women) feel preasured by advertising when they (the women) do just the same thing.
I have said this before and I still think it is true. Women saying that size doesn’t matter is just a rouse to cover up the fact that women are every bit as shallow as men. Because if that became public knowledge the support for women feeling bad not fitting to an ideal female apperance would drop like a rock.
Let the women experience being at the bottom of the meat market for once.
Nick, you’ve nailed it.
I would argue that sexual compatibility is vital to the health of any long-term relationship, but that’s a slightly different subject. (One I can easily write at length about.) But there is not a set definition of what that means, it is unique to each relationship and needs to be handled thusly. And yes, we can all make sex work, IF we are invested in doing so. Thus, the line about the best penis being attached to someone we are “wild about.” If we want to make it work, we will, but both parties have to be willing. (Or all parties, if we’re talking about non-monogamy.)
I agree, totally, that not wasting time trying to force sexual satisfaction where fundamental compatibility does not exist is often the best approach. Though that is more of an attitude thing than a physiology thing, in my opinion and experience.
I do know, historically, what kinds of penises work best with my physiology. That said, I have strayed in both directions, many times, and been totally rewarded with great sex that expanded by horizons. That said, I did settle into a life partner with what I would refer to with my girlfriends as “my Cinderella Cock.” Which is, of course, different for everyone.
I’m sorry, but why when people talking about men body issues, its always about penis? I have to remind you that men have bodies too , arms, legs, chest, abs, ass, like women have boobs, ass, legs, etc. What I remember growing up as a skinny scrawny kid is I have always been insecure with my body , but never about my penis size. That’s the reason I went to gym and lift weights back in high school . I gained confidence trough my fit bodies I achieved from weightlifting . My body image clearly affects my confidence. My penis size? I never seriously think about that.
And I do think with many fit guy pictures in media and pop culture with toned biceps, round shoulders, and sculpted abs, there’s more demand from women to have men with fit bodies. I have heard my female friend talk how she want her boyfriend to workout and get rid of his fat bellies and have “six pack abs” like “Jacobs” from Twilight.
And for the one who said body image doesn’t affects men at all and men rather focus on other qualities, ask million of young guys who went to gym to get buff and “six pack abs”.
” I’m sorry, but why when people talking about men body issues, its always about penis?”
HAHAHAHAHA soooo true
Kinda annoying, since I find the penis to be the least of my bodily concerns.
I agree – It seems my mouth is the biggest issue – due to an apparent oral fixation and extreme Dontopedalogy.
Your right John, and just about every young man at the gym I go to will tell you they’re there to ‘Look good for the women.’ However, after the women check out his biceps, pecs and abs, if he’s wearing something kind of form fitting, guess where their gaze goes? That’s right, to see if he belongs on the ‘Frisky list’ (several women have admitted that to me, of course they were slightly drunk at the time.)