This is a comment by Davey on the post “Nice Guys Commit Rape Too“.
Davey said:
This is a powerful, well-written article that strikes a little too close to home for me, and I’d like to actually add a different type of rape that we don’t talk about at all in society, either: the type where “consent” is given through coercion or wearing-down.
I know only too well how insidious this is, because it happened to me. Or rather, because I was the one who did it.
I was dating a woman in a long-distance relationship, and we saw each other in person for the first time in over half a year. Naturally, I had come to expect that the first night we’d have a wild night of passion liked we did every other time we saw each other. She, however, told me she didn’t want to, because she was tired from travel. And I promptly threw one hell of a temper tantrum, whining, pleading, and eventually expressing genuine anger like a child before turning over in a petulant huff and giving passive-aggressive sighs. At which point she said that okay, we could.
It wasn’t until later that she told me how betrayed and violated she felt. That I’d ignored her “no” to wear her down with repeated whining and pressure. That she’d felt scared by my anger, and worried I’d hurt her if she didn’t say yes. (The fact that I never would have is irrelevant, as it was what she perceived that led to her decision). The fact that I thought entitled to her body because we were dating and because we’d slept together before, and she agreed, which led to her feeling like she’d compromised herself. And eventually, she said the word that neither of us wanted to bring up: she felt like she’d been raped.
I always considered myself a good guy. I’ve always tried to fight for equality and for the rights of those who are marginalized. But this was years ago and I’m still not sure how to process it or how to deal with it as a man who identifies as feminist, or how to use it to maybe find a silver lining of purpose or redemption.
Yes, she said yes. On the surface, consent was given. But it was consent given after pestering and, from her perspective, threats. So she has every right to feel how she did. And at the time I had no clue I’d even done anything wrong.
Like the article discusses, we need as a society to talk about and be more aware of how (particularly) men wrongly interpret signals that (particularly) women send out. But we also need (particularly) boys to learn that a consent won through pestering isn’t much of a consent at all. I wish I’d learned that lesson before I had to.
Photo credit: Flickr / albertoabouganem
About the Editors
Why do many of you all keep saying “It is not rape if he pestered her until she said “yes”"?
If someone says “no” to sex, it is obvious that the person asked does not want sex. Asking again and again, throwing a tantrum and so on, shows that the person asking is not interested in real consent; just in the “yes” that will make it not-rape.
Someone who does not want non-consensual sex (i.e. does not want to rape someone) would accept a “no”, since, obviously, real consent cannot be obtained at that moment. (nor three seconds or minutes or even hours later, in most cases)
Therefore, you think Davey deserves jail time?
“(nor three seconds or minutes or even hours later, in most cases)”
Hours later? Like when they aren’t busy and you ask again and if they say yes it’s somehow rape now? wtf.
love this: “the person asking is not interested in real consent; just in the “yes” that will make it not-rape.”
thank you for making it so clear.
I’d agree there should be more asking and communication on the part of both parties. But still, for it to be rape of the type that deserves jail time, if the victim has the capacity (not asleep or significantly intoxicated) and the opportunity to object and is without reasonable fear of violence or other serious reprisal, then that person does need to clearly communicate what they are and are not ok with. There are a LOT of different levels of progression in a sexual encounter–continually needing to ask each other about every move of a hand or other body part to another body part, really, how would you police that? “No” only needs to be said once–unless consent is given subsequently, the attempted activity is prohibited.
yeah, i know. the logistics and rating systems would be ridiculously complex. i still like the way Gowan wrote it, and it swayed me in that direction. I’m a sway-er, I guess. I found this of interest from a website about rape:
Gray Rape
Young readers might think that “gray rape” has something to do with a certain popular BDSM bestseller, but it’s a term that’s officially been around since the ’90s. Most people think that Cosmopolitan invented the term “gray rape” in 2007, when Laura Session Stepp defined it as “sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what.” But Katie Roiphe infamously claimed “There is a gray area in which one person’s rape may be another’s bad night” in her 1994 book The Morning After: Fear, Sex and Feminism.
When the Cosmo article prompted a panel on the dangers of “grey rape,” Linda Fairstein, the former chief of the sex crimes unit at the Manhattan district attorney’s office, told the New York Times that the concept had been around long before Cosmo decided it was trendy. “Certainly, in the criminal justice system there’s no such thing as gray rape,” she said. “Gray rape is not a new term and not a new experience. For journalists, it may be, but for those of us who had worked in advocacy or law enforcement, this description of something being in a gray area has been around all the time. It’s always been my job in law enforcement to separate out the facts.”
Just sayin’
Is your point that we live in a society that too-readily uses jail time as a punishment? If so, I’d be willing to talk that out a bit. Jail sentences are incredibly destructive and our country has a particularly draconian prison system. But as long as it’s illegal to sell heroin and cocaine, HELL YES this deserves punishment.
The point is, the more broadly you define “rape”, the easier it is to say “I guess Rape isn’t always a big deal, after all.”
If I believed everything I read in this thread, I would be forced to conclude that it’s impossible to know for sure whether any sex is rape before you do it. And if *that* were true (it’s not), then Rape couldn’t be a matter for the criminal courts at all.
Are you kidding me?
If she said yes, she changed her mind. Then, afterwards, she changed her mind again. That’s all there is to it. You didn’t ACTUALLY threaten her or Coerce her; you just begged, pleaded, and otherwise showed yourself to be desperate. She then agreed because she valued the relationship more than she minded having sex. I don’t understand why you’re blaming yourself, you did nothing wrong.
You’ve convinced yourself that someone is incapable of changing their mind. She clearly did that, twice.
Stefan, I’m going to say something rather radical, here. I stated it to some extent much earlier in this discussion.
1. I think that, because of the nature of intercourse, women are more vulnerable than men. Women open themselves, men push in.
2. Once a woman is in bed with a man, her degree of vulnerability increases. No, we are not helpless creatures, and we are of course physically able to get out of bed and go out the door and hail a taxi. I get that. Still, once the nightgown is on, and we are both under the blankets, a woman generally longs for a sense of safety and love, and that makes her a little more vulnerable than the man who always feel safe.
3. A man who pesters and pleads and doesn’t give up his quest for sex despite her repeated “no’s” and even hits the bed next to where she’s lying is alarming and scary. At this point he becomes threatening.
4. So here is this woman, vulnerable to being opened up in sex, vulnerable because she’s already in bed with the man and she has let down her guard. (Yes, women keep up a guard most of the day. When we get into bed, we let it down a little. It’s the nature of being female. Not a good or bad thing, just a difference compared with men.) And then he starts ranting and raving and smacking the bed.
She wants to please him because her feelings for him have started to run deep, but his persistence and violence is increasing her sense of guardedness. She wishes she hadn’t gotten into bed with him. She wishes he would just stop yelling or go masturbate in the bathroom. She says no so many times she can’t even count them. Then she gives in. She opens to him physically and by then he doesn’t give a sh*t about her beautiful opening up, he just goes for it and gets the job done. And by the time she has opened up to him, just to get him to shut up, she has put herself into a state of depersonalization or dissociation. This is exactly the emotional states rape victims experience. “I’m not really here.” “This isn’t me.” “This isn’t really happening.” “I’ll just let him screw me and then I can be myself again, then I can feel safe again.”
Yes, she changed her mind. Yes, twice. But she was scared, suffering, longing for love, and she was depersonalizing or dissociating.
My two cents’
Thanks for a calm reply to my heated comment.
However, the fact remains that he didn’t threaten her. Pounding the bed in frustration should not equal threatening. If she felt threatened, she should have told him so. I understand her justification for giving into the pressure, but she needs to realize that she did give in, he did not force her to do anything, and that she needs to cope with the consequences of that decision instead of blaming him for it. She made the judgement that her relationship wasn’t worth withholding sex. She could have done a dozen other things, but she didn’t. If I had any respect for myself and I got in that situation, I would have said “Shut up, or I’m putting on my clothes, calling a taxi, and leaving.” It takes bravery, but if someone puts you in that situation than he’s clearly not what you thought he was.
Look at it the other way around. If she said “yes, yes, yes,” and then changed it to a “No” then the no stands. So by the same logic, “no, no no” and then “yes” is perfectly legitimate. It doesn’t matter why unless he actually threatened her or harmed her into agreeing. That’s it.
Stefan,
Maybe. Maybe you have stated some good points.
But It just seems like something is missing here. We are so determined to be a modern society that we forget that women’s way of being in the world might, yes, might actually be different from men’s. That vulnerability factor. There’s something there that I haven’t quite been able to put in words that are effective. Working on it though.
And your comment didn’t seem heated. I’ve been in and out of this dialogue here for a while now. It’s raising everybody’s hackles.
Regards
I understand that there is an emotional level to this. But that’s not fair. It must be nailed down in an objective way, and that is it. She said yes, without being forced to do so. I understand how scary it was, but the anger wasn’t directed at her and she could have voiced her concern over it.
He clearly even feels bad! If he wasn’t needy, desperate for sex, and then felt bad for no reason, I’d imagine he’d be the perfect dude.
Yes. And….it’s often hard to do the things you know you should do when you are frightened, and in the light of day and not being in the situation it’s easy to say…you should have done this. Esp if someone you thought you trusted is hitting things (wow, you might be next), and women are socialized to be pleasing so…
And if you were a 5’1″ 110 pound woman dating a 6’2″ 225 man, yeah, pounding on a bed and loud voices most certainly seems threatening.
No No No he hits things and then yes? Why on earth would he want to have sex like that? It may be legitimate to have sex with her yes, but that’s really all he was having sex with, or should I say “on” cause she was only doing it to feel safe. And that is not a mutually pleasurable consensual experience.
Rape? Probably not. Gross user-ish non mutual sex? Yeah. Not cool.
I concur with the arguments made by you. He needs to learn to control his anger, not be desperate for sex, and above all WAIT. Just sleep the night and have sex in the frickin morning, geze.
and yet he is not a rapist, as she said yes. If you get in a situation like that, tell him to stop hitting things, ’cause it’s scaring you. Or walk away.
Re: “She made the judgement that her relationship wasn’t worth withholding sex”:
I’m not sure this is the case. The judgement she made was very likely along the lines of whether the risk of being beaten up was at too high a level to be worth withholding sex.
It sounds like he was behaving in a way that appeared crazy (repeated extremely intense anger/begging/whining) and was accompanied by what many women see as a sign of violence likely to be directed at them next (bed-pounding). What in his mind simply seemed like childish behavior plus hitting what he’s supposed to (bed) when he’s out of control (thus thinking he was signaling that he _didn’t_ intend to hit _her_) probably seemed to her like something where she didn’t have a good way of determining whether she was likely to end up in the hospital if she tried to leave.
So then, he turns over–a bit of a de-escalation. What’s her choice? She could leave, which can be highly provoking to someone angry–she’s not too sure whether she can get out safely–or she could take this moment where he’s calmed down a bit (and the sex seems less likely to be violent) to get it over with and ensure her safety. Or she could try to get to sleep, not knowing whether he’s going to start up again acting out-of-control sometime later in the night. It’s a really crappy choice.
I still don’t think it’s quite rape of the sort that requires jail time–that deserves the full label “rape.” I think the perpertrator’s force or threat or coercion (threat of job loss/class failure/etc.) needs to be something he’s aware of doing. This man did _not_ know how frightening he appeared.
However, what he did was still really serious, and many more people who engage in that sort of behavior need to learn what a big deal it is. If he’d known he’d thrown her into a state of mind where she didn’t know if she might end up in the hospital with torn insides (that’s where _my_ mind has gone when I’ve thought I was in imminent danger of being raped, anyway, and I don’t think it’s unusual), I’m quite sure he would not have acted that way. In addition, what if we started getting across the idea to people in _her_situation that there are things you can ask or say that could help a lot more than freezing or giving in? She and I (I’ve been in situation that had similar aspects) would perhaps both have been better off if we’d been prepped with the idea prior that we could, for instance, quietly ask “are you going to hurt me if I keep saying no?” or “you’re scaring me a lot.” It is REALLY instinctive to freeze and stay silent in these situations for women.
So, what I’d really like is for men and women to be able to talk about exactly these sorts of situations without so much vitriol. How can a man (or other person in the author’s position) who don’t know how terrifying this can be start to understand it if they can’t talk about it without being instantly demonized? If I know if I’m instantly accused with vitriol about something I’m going to have a knee-jerk reaction of not wanting to listen. If we can use a less loaded term than “rape” for similar situations, I think it will be much more persuasive in getting your average person-who-is-larger-and-stronger-than-their-partner to listen to what the problem really is.
I just want to say, when I read that and had the image of a woman quietly asking, “Are you going to hurt me if I keep saying no?”, it hit me a lot more powerfully than any amount of yelling. I imagine that if I was in Davey’s position, that would have snapped me right back to reality.
My only problem with women learning to quietly ask “are you going to hurt me” to de-escalate the moment = women taking responsibility for men’s actions.
Why not ask men to learn to say, quietly, something like, “I’m sad that you don’t want to have sex with me” – ? And why not teach men to go to the couch or the guest room with his sadness?
“My only problem with women learning to quietly ask “are you going to hurt me” to de-escalate the moment = women taking responsibility for men’s actions.”
What appears threatening to a woman may not appear threatening to a man though, so he may not have realized his actions caused fear. She needs to tell him that, it’s also possible she misread his actions and was feeling threatened when she shouldn’t have, asking can clarify that.
Teach both, women (and men) to ask or say the behaviour is threatening, and for men (and women) to learn better ways to handle their emotions.
As a man, sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to avoid a fight or three hours of explaining that yes, you’re still sexy and wonderful but I’m tired as shit and your whining isn’t attractive, and I’m going to want to sleep with you less tomorrow because I’ll remember this and on and on. I love women and sex and lots of both, but not always. And sometimes, like most men, I do what I have to do to avoid a fight. And trust me, maintaining a less-than-enthusiastic erection is much more difficult than laying there.
This is absolutely another possible explanation for her actions. *Which she (or a guy in her situation) has a _right to do_ without the partner being accused of rape.* Is the partner being really icky? Yes. Is it possible the person who’s not into having sex at that time it is doing it out of fear, making it closer to a rape situation, but not quite there? Yes. Like I said before, we need to be able to talk about these situations–the folks insisting on calling them rape are _not_ helping folks improve their ability to engage in preventative communication in borderline situations.
Bottom line for me? think I have the right to be thought to make a capable and rational decision to engage in sex when I’m not, actually, feeling super enthusiastic about it. I really resent being thought a victim when I’ve made _my own decision_.
“Still, once the nightgown is on, and we are both under the blankets, a woman generally longs for a sense of safety and love, and that makes her a little more vulnerable than the man who always feel safe.”
Oh please, what men do you know that feel 100% safe in bed? I was shitting bricks nervous last time I was getting laid, I felt vulnerable, I worried about how sexy I was, worried about my performance, about her teeth on my penis, the fear of false rape accusations also in the back of the mind (no matter how rare they are, I also avoid standing out in lightning too which is probably rarer), AND the threat of rape too. What makes you think men feel invincible in the bedroom? Nor desire safety??
This whole women are more vulnerable every-time trope needs to die out already. Women are not fragile lil porcelain dolls and men are not solid adamantium with force field shielding.
Guess what, I am 6’6 and large bodied, I guarantee I was more nervous than the woman I was with (who was about 5’5 and prob half my size), she was far more confident than I was in bed whilst I was fighting off my anxiety trying to enjoy the experience and not be so frickin nervous. Sure if I wanted to I could probably overpower her physically, and if she wanted to she could say fuck me or I’ll claim you raped me and I’d be up shits creek unable to do a thing knowing if I fight back I’ll get into the shit since I’m 2x bigger, and there’s far more chance she’ll be believed with a false claim which even if it doesn’t hit trial could fuck my reputation up let alone open me up to the risk of white knights beating shit out of me. Someone on this site has already told of their story where they were raped by a woman doing this, I think another also mentioned being orally raped with the threat of her bf being a huge bastard who’d beat em up. There are many reasons people of both genders can be nervous in sex, hell having external genitals is risky as hell, it’s pretty damn easy to injure the testicles and penis!
Archy, now my blood is boiling! As Stefan writes, this article raises all kinds of anger (and other emotions) in – all of us.
Okay, I get it that you are not emotionally safe in bed. I get the ways that you feel vulnerable. I hear you. But does it ever occur to you, when you go to bed with a woman, that she might physically hurt you? Does it ever occur to you that she might end up punching you in the face? I honestly don’t know, only you can answer. My guess is “no.”
And yeah, yes, definitely, women are more vulnerable. Do you really want equality of the sexes? Really? In my opinion we should celebrate our differences; we are different but have equal rights in the pursuit of happiness and all that. I understand that what I say is outdated and sounds ridiculous, but there is a very precious part inside of each woman that, if appreciated and nurtured and desired, would make our whole society, a rape-society of not, richer and better.
And that I say that women are vulnerable does not make them li’l porcelain dolls. If you really let yourself consider deeply what the difference is between men and women, you might surprise yourself with your honest answer. But if you are hanging around with nasty arrogant ball-breaking women, then I’d say that they are not in touch with their own magical vulnerability – they are just trying to act like men, which will not work in the long run, and you should run away as fast as all hell.
“But does it ever occur to you, when you go to bed with a woman, that she might physically hurt you? Does it ever occur to you that she might end up punching you in the face? I honestly don’t know, only you can answer. My guess is “no.””
Yes, it does. I know full well that in relationships women are plenty capable of being violent.
What you’re advocating is women are more vulnerable than men in the bedroom, and you’re playing down the risks men face. You assume I don’t fear violence from women but I’ve had women punch me, slap me, etc, even in public with no one stopping them. I’ve been in bed and been slapped for making a joke, I mean seriously wtf, the joke wasn’t about her nor offensive enough to warrant a slap.
“But if you are hanging around with nasty arrogant ball-breaking women, then I’d say that they are not in touch with their own magical vulnerability – they are just trying to act like men, which will not work in the long run, and you should run away as fast as all hell.”
Listen to how you speak, it’s misandrist. You’re pretty much saying men are nasty, arrogant and ball-breaking, that women have this magical vulnerability that men do not. Do you seriously not understand that women can be violent?
You may not realize this but physical size isn’t the only indicator of vulnerability. I am a big person, but it doesn’t mean I’ll automatically defend myself and not be scared. Punches hurt, a punch to the nuts hurts really really really bad and can cause permanent injury. Women are well within the strength capability to inflict seriously damage. I hate having to defend myself, I am both scared of being injured but also due to my strength I am scared of inflicting too much injury, I am also scared of narrowminded bigoted fools who will think because I am big that I am automatically a tank vs a woman. I have female cousins who’ve KNOCKED GUYS OUT with 1 hit, I don’t think of women as weak. Defending against a male attacker is one thing, defending against a woman is even more scary because you have a decent chance as a man of NOT being seen as a victim but the aggressor.
How am I supposed to defend myself against a woman who hits me? I can try leave, but I can’t bruise her (which would happen in trying to escape) otherwise it may lead to me being seen as the aggressor? Definitely can’t hit back, even at half the force she uses.
Yikes. You are right, I was totally misandrist. You have opened my eyes about that.
I do understand that women can be violent.
All I want to add is that if you’ve been slapped for making a joke, and hit several or a few or many or whatever times for who-knows-what reasons, then I suggest you take a look at yourself. wtf? Something ain’t right somewhere.
Not sure if you’ve noticed or if it’s the same there but it’s quite common for young women to slap men, in highschool especially. There is this entitlement or overlooked behaviour where they feel completely fine hitting men. I’ve been punched by one for laughing at someone else’s joke, that had nothing to do with her but she thought I was laughing at her. These are jokes that guys don’t hit each other over, they’re made simply for a laugh and not to actually hurt anyone. Example if someone messes up their cooking and you laugh at it, usually you laugh with them over it especially if they have gotten cranky about it. I don’t go hitting people who laugh when that happens, I LAUGH or if it annoys me I’ll brush it off and if bad enough I’ll tell them it’s not ok.
“All I want to add is that if you’ve been slapped for making a joke, and hit several or a few or many or whatever times for who-knows-what reasons, then I suggest you take a look at yourself. wtf? Something ain’t right somewhere.”
Would you say this to a woman hit by men in a relationship or by friends? Let’s say I slapped my gf (I wouldn’t but for arguments sake), she’s been slapped by other guys too, would you suggest she takes a look at herself and say something ain’t right somewhere? Or do you think it’s fine for women to slap men if they feel offended by them? Could I then slap women that offend me?
Archy,
No, I would not say it to a woman hit by a man in a relationship or by friends. I can see that this sounds unfair.
Listen. There’s _something_ different about women, yes? Women and men are not equal, right? They are equally important, but not equal. There are simply differences. That I can’t define them easily doesn’t make it less true.
Yes, women slug men in the arm when they are playfully (or playfully seriously) (or just seriously) mad. I don’t have an answer for you about why that is okay. It’s been happening for just about forever, I guess. I don’t think it’s just American. Things like women slapping men’s faces and men just shaking it off. It just is. It’s kind of like that old saying about porn: “I can’t define it but I know it when I see it,” which is a weird comparison considering this discussion.
Let me ask you this. What is the essential difference between women and men? You know, aside from physical obvious differences, what makes a woman a woman? Can you define it?
One more thought: Men go around saying that the sweet smell of their woman’s hair has lingered long after they parted. Can’t tell you how many men have said that to me. And I don’t use any special shampoo!!! And I am certain countless women have heard the same thing. So what’s that all about? You guys want us to be sweet, so sweet that our sweetness lingers, and yet you want us to be as tough as you guys, too. You can’t have it both ways.
“Listen. There’s _something_ different about women, yes? Women and men are not equal, right? They are equally important, but not equal. There are simply differences. That I can’t define them easily doesn’t make it less true.”
You mean like men should be paid more because they’re better workers? That women should shutup and accept a man’s rule because men are the head of the household, they’re dominant? No I don’t believe this, just pointing out where the men and women are different statements are often used to justify sexism.
“No, I would not say it to a woman hit by a man in a relationship or by friends. I can see that this sounds unfair.”
Why? Don’t those women deserve it too? Or are we only assigning responsibility for men and excusing women’s actions?
Saying that women are different from men justifies sexism? Not to me. Different but treated with the same level of integrity.
And yes we are excusing some of the actions of women. Women still can’t compete with men athletically. Men are stronger – a generalization I know, but still. So, yes. Men are responsible because they are stronger. They have more muscle and can handle a punch in the arm. Ahh, I can’t keep defending myself on this! Think what you wish! Good luck and farewell, I’ve gotta get to bed, by myself, within my own boundaries! This is a vital discussion and I’m still appreciating it as it goes along…
Another thing bothers me: A rape society isn’t a rape society if it considers “Rape through wearing down” to be a thing. It’s a stupid society. If the girl says yes unless forced to do so (And no, asking 300 times is not forcing them) then it’s NOT RAPE. Just imagine a girl asking a guy for fifty bucks. He refuses for the first thirty times she asks, then finally agrees. She didn’t steal his money! This article raises all sorts of anger in me.
I agree. I think the “wearing down” argument completely undermines prevention efforts for rape by force, overt threatened violence, or coercion (threat of loss of job/bad grade in class, etc.) It makes rape prevention workers look pretty bananas, frankly.
Playing devil’s advocate, regarding the 50 bucks example, what if it’s a much larger and stronger guy with a threatening appearance and stance asking many times for the money in a private location? That gets a lot iffier. I guess I’d still say the guy with the money needs to ask if the other guy plans to hurt him or make a small move toward the door to gauge reaction to get a better sense of whether force is likely to ensure before I’d call handing over the money theft, though.
oops, in that last sentence it should be “ensue” rather than “ensure”
Anat, you make such a good point about the fifty bucks.
I used to live in NYC. On a subway, a really big guy came over and stepped on my boyfriend’s foot. That’s all he did. He kept his foot pressed on my bf’s. It was late at night, no one was around. We both froze. He didn’t ask for anything, but danger was in the air. If he had asked for fifty bucks, we would’ve given it to him. Lucky for us, a few people got on at the next stop and we hurried off.
My point is that circumstance, isolation, who’s doing what, who’s saying what and in what tone of voice -these things are all very important to consider. Even if this huge guy had just stood there looming over my bf, that probably would’ve been enough for us to hand over money. And he’d be able to say, Hey, I didn’t use a weapon, I didn’t say a word, I didn’t touch them.
In that situation, do you think the large man’s intentions are relevant? If he wasn’t intending to look threatening, he didn’t say anything, and you handed him the money in your wallet and left, should he be considered a thief? Or would you think a person in that situation would need to (1) wait until he asked for money (2) wait until the situation escalated further before handing over money (until, for instance, the man held out his hand palm up and gestured toward a wallet,, or the victim asked the man “please get off my foot” and the man started to be even more threatening instead of complying).
Anat, yes his intentions are relevant. It was obvious to us that his intention was to scare us, but we probably could never have proved that. And I select #2 for my answer. The subway car was empty, his towered over us, he continued to press down on my bf’s foot, the expression on his face was menacing. If he had put his hand out as if to receive money, we would have given it to him and we would have felt like he robbed us.
Putting your foot on someone and standing WELL within the personal boundary of a person is threatening, because the foot part is already assault and getting that close is threatening. Yelling n punching a pillow away from someone though may be done to be threatening or done simply because the person is having a tantrum. It doesn’t necessarily mean he’s trying to threaten her. Yelling itself can be threatening, but it can also be because of the person’s way they handle emotions and part of an outburst aimed at no one. Having sex with someone after that though I don’t consider rape unless they’re punching you, or directly threatening you vs having a silly tantrum. The actions are ambiguous and can’t simply be only a threat against her, it could very well be just a tantrum. It’s not good or healthy but I wouldn’t call it coercion or rape by itself, it’d be nagging which is bad in itself.
If you feel he is dangerous and have sex with him to avoid being beaten up, it relies upon your judgment of his behaviour. Saying he will hurt you, directly hurting you, saying he’ll beat you up unless you have sex is coercion. Punching a pillow n having a tantrum though doesn’t necessarily mean he’s threatening you, and choosing to have sex with him after that I can’t see where it’d be rape. Are you unable to leave? Unable to say no? Are you accurately judging his aggressive behaviour? I fully understand someone would feel violated if they chose to have sex thinking it will save them from being beaten up but how far does that judgment of aggression n threatening behaviour go? If he yelled? If he looked at you funny? Or only if he hits a pillow? I believe that type of behaviour though might be covered under abuse, might be psychological abuse but that might be related more to objects you own being broken vs a physical outburst of aggression towards a pillow.
Not legal advice however, and of course his other actions, his body language, etc all matter, proximity to her, what he is saying when he’s hitting the pillow, etc all matter and can affect this. It could very well be sexual abuse, I don’t think it’s healthy or good at all either way but I don’t think it would be considered rape, MAYBE coercion but that may depend on if the threatening behaviour was against her vs being a tantrum.
My last comment was directed toward Anat… Now to you, Archy,
Just realized something. You mentioned that standing within the boundary of a person is threatening, yes? (the guy standing on my bf’s foot) I think this is part of what I’ve been trying to say about being in bed together. When you’re in bed with another person your boundaries are lowered, lessened. Both the man’s and the woman’s.
So there he is inside her usual boundary and he starts acting up. It’s the being in bed part that makes a difference. If they were standing in the hall or the dining room or wherever, having that long interaction of whining and pleading and yelling and hitting a pillow on a chair, I would have a very different opinion. And she would have been much much much more likely to just leave. But it’s the BED.
Being in bed together. It is unlike any other location. It’s where we feel safe enough to sleep and cozy up and relax and snore and do whatever else we might do while we sleep. The bed is a symbol of, maybe, “no boundaries.”
Well, hold on now. Hmm.
In Michigan, if a man hits a woman by mistake – for example, even if she were trying to calm him down and he accidentally struck her outstretched hand, that is considered domestic violence and the state of Michigan slaps a restraining order on both of them, without consent by either party. I assume same goes for a woman hit by a man. Don’t really know.
So, maybe my answer to you is No. Intention does not matter. At least according to the law in my state.
What if that subway guy was just huge and had a very low IQ and was half blind and couldn’t see that he was standing on anybody’s toe? Eh, my mind is swimming with what-ifs. You got anything?
Typo. I meant “man hit by a woman.”
It’s about The Bed.
In our collective unconscious, The Bed has come to symbolize safety. Safety to let our boundaries go for the night. To join a loved one in their boundary, and vice versa.
If the author had had this event while standing in the hallway, I believe that that location would change everyone’s reaction to it. Dramatically.
The Bed. Lessened boundaries. Heightened vulnerabilities. We need, all of us, to work at communicating better about the time we spend in bed together. Less assumptions, more talking, more loving.