This is a comment by Davey on the post “Nice Guys Commit Rape Too“.
Davey said:
This is a powerful, well-written article that strikes a little too close to home for me, and I’d like to actually add a different type of rape that we don’t talk about at all in society, either: the type where “consent” is given through coercion or wearing-down.
I know only too well how insidious this is, because it happened to me. Or rather, because I was the one who did it.
I was dating a woman in a long-distance relationship, and we saw each other in person for the first time in over half a year. Naturally, I had come to expect that the first night we’d have a wild night of passion liked we did every other time we saw each other. She, however, told me she didn’t want to, because she was tired from travel. And I promptly threw one hell of a temper tantrum, whining, pleading, and eventually expressing genuine anger like a child before turning over in a petulant huff and giving passive-aggressive sighs. At which point she said that okay, we could.
It wasn’t until later that she told me how betrayed and violated she felt. That I’d ignored her “no” to wear her down with repeated whining and pressure. That she’d felt scared by my anger, and worried I’d hurt her if she didn’t say yes. (The fact that I never would have is irrelevant, as it was what she perceived that led to her decision). The fact that I thought entitled to her body because we were dating and because we’d slept together before, and she agreed, which led to her feeling like she’d compromised herself. And eventually, she said the word that neither of us wanted to bring up: she felt like she’d been raped.
I always considered myself a good guy. I’ve always tried to fight for equality and for the rights of those who are marginalized. But this was years ago and I’m still not sure how to process it or how to deal with it as a man who identifies as feminist, or how to use it to maybe find a silver lining of purpose or redemption.
Yes, she said yes. On the surface, consent was given. But it was consent given after pestering and, from her perspective, threats. So she has every right to feel how she did. And at the time I had no clue I’d even done anything wrong.
Like the article discusses, we need as a society to talk about and be more aware of how (particularly) men wrongly interpret signals that (particularly) women send out. But we also need (particularly) boys to learn that a consent won through pestering isn’t much of a consent at all. I wish I’d learned that lesson before I had to.
Photo credit: Flickr / albertoabouganem
It’s about The Bed.
In our collective unconscious, The Bed has come to symbolize safety. Safety to let our boundaries go for the night. To join a loved one in their boundary, and vice versa.
If the author had had this event while standing in the hallway, I believe that that location would change everyone’s reaction to it. Dramatically.
The Bed. Lessened boundaries. Heightened vulnerabilities. We need, all of us, to work at communicating better about the time we spend in bed together. Less assumptions, more talking, more loving.
Another thing bothers me: A rape society isn’t a rape society if it considers “Rape through wearing down” to be a thing. It’s a stupid society. If the girl says yes unless forced to do so (And no, asking 300 times is not forcing them) then it’s NOT RAPE. Just imagine a girl asking a guy for fifty bucks. He refuses for the first thirty times she asks, then finally agrees. She didn’t steal his money! This article raises all sorts of anger in me.
I agree. I think the “wearing down” argument completely undermines prevention efforts for rape by force, overt threatened violence, or coercion (threat of loss of job/bad grade in class, etc.) It makes rape prevention workers look pretty bananas, frankly. Playing devil’s advocate, regarding the 50 bucks example, what if it’s a much larger and stronger guy with a threatening appearance and stance asking many times for the money in a private location? That gets a lot iffier. I guess I’d still say the guy with the money needs to ask if the other guy plans to hurt him or make… Read more »
oops, in that last sentence it should be “ensue” rather than “ensure”
Anat, you make such a good point about the fifty bucks. I used to live in NYC. On a subway, a really big guy came over and stepped on my boyfriend’s foot. That’s all he did. He kept his foot pressed on my bf’s. It was late at night, no one was around. We both froze. He didn’t ask for anything, but danger was in the air. If he had asked for fifty bucks, we would’ve given it to him. Lucky for us, a few people got on at the next stop and we hurried off. My point is that… Read more »
In that situation, do you think the large man’s intentions are relevant? If he wasn’t intending to look threatening, he didn’t say anything, and you handed him the money in your wallet and left, should he be considered a thief? Or would you think a person in that situation would need to (1) wait until he asked for money (2) wait until the situation escalated further before handing over money (until, for instance, the man held out his hand palm up and gestured toward a wallet,, or the victim asked the man “please get off my foot” and the man… Read more »
Anat, yes his intentions are relevant. It was obvious to us that his intention was to scare us, but we probably could never have proved that. And I select #2 for my answer. The subway car was empty, his towered over us, he continued to press down on my bf’s foot, the expression on his face was menacing. If he had put his hand out as if to receive money, we would have given it to him and we would have felt like he robbed us.
Putting your foot on someone and standing WELL within the personal boundary of a person is threatening, because the foot part is already assault and getting that close is threatening. Yelling n punching a pillow away from someone though may be done to be threatening or done simply because the person is having a tantrum. It doesn’t necessarily mean he’s trying to threaten her. Yelling itself can be threatening, but it can also be because of the person’s way they handle emotions and part of an outburst aimed at no one. Having sex with someone after that though I don’t… Read more »
My last comment was directed toward Anat… Now to you, Archy, Just realized something. You mentioned that standing within the boundary of a person is threatening, yes? (the guy standing on my bf’s foot) I think this is part of what I’ve been trying to say about being in bed together. When you’re in bed with another person your boundaries are lowered, lessened. Both the man’s and the woman’s. So there he is inside her usual boundary and he starts acting up. It’s the being in bed part that makes a difference. If they were standing in the hall or… Read more »
Well, hold on now. Hmm. In Michigan, if a man hits a woman by mistake – for example, even if she were trying to calm him down and he accidentally struck her outstretched hand, that is considered domestic violence and the state of Michigan slaps a restraining order on both of them, without consent by either party. I assume same goes for a woman hit by a man. Don’t really know. So, maybe my answer to you is No. Intention does not matter. At least according to the law in my state. What if that subway guy was just huge… Read more »
Typo. I meant “man hit by a woman.”
Are you kidding me?
If she said yes, she changed her mind. Then, afterwards, she changed her mind again. That’s all there is to it. You didn’t ACTUALLY threaten her or Coerce her; you just begged, pleaded, and otherwise showed yourself to be desperate. She then agreed because she valued the relationship more than she minded having sex. I don’t understand why you’re blaming yourself, you did nothing wrong.
You’ve convinced yourself that someone is incapable of changing their mind. She clearly did that, twice.
Stefan, I’m going to say something rather radical, here. I stated it to some extent much earlier in this discussion. 1. I think that, because of the nature of intercourse, women are more vulnerable than men. Women open themselves, men push in. 2. Once a woman is in bed with a man, her degree of vulnerability increases. No, we are not helpless creatures, and we are of course physically able to get out of bed and go out the door and hail a taxi. I get that. Still, once the nightgown is on, and we are both under the blankets,… Read more »
Thanks for a calm reply to my heated comment. However, the fact remains that he didn’t threaten her. Pounding the bed in frustration should not equal threatening. If she felt threatened, she should have told him so. I understand her justification for giving into the pressure, but she needs to realize that she did give in, he did not force her to do anything, and that she needs to cope with the consequences of that decision instead of blaming him for it. She made the judgement that her relationship wasn’t worth withholding sex. She could have done a dozen other… Read more »
Stefan,
Maybe. Maybe you have stated some good points.
But It just seems like something is missing here. We are so determined to be a modern society that we forget that women’s way of being in the world might, yes, might actually be different from men’s. That vulnerability factor. There’s something there that I haven’t quite been able to put in words that are effective. Working on it though.
And your comment didn’t seem heated. I’ve been in and out of this dialogue here for a while now. It’s raising everybody’s hackles.
Regards
I understand that there is an emotional level to this. But that’s not fair. It must be nailed down in an objective way, and that is it. She said yes, without being forced to do so. I understand how scary it was, but the anger wasn’t directed at her and she could have voiced her concern over it.
He clearly even feels bad! If he wasn’t needy, desperate for sex, and then felt bad for no reason, I’d imagine he’d be the perfect dude.
Yes. And….it’s often hard to do the things you know you should do when you are frightened, and in the light of day and not being in the situation it’s easy to say…you should have done this. Esp if someone you thought you trusted is hitting things (wow, you might be next), and women are socialized to be pleasing so… And if you were a 5’1″ 110 pound woman dating a 6’2″ 225 man, yeah, pounding on a bed and loud voices most certainly seems threatening. No No No he hits things and then yes? Why on earth would he… Read more »
I concur with the arguments made by you. He needs to learn to control his anger, not be desperate for sex, and above all WAIT. Just sleep the night and have sex in the frickin morning, geze.
and yet he is not a rapist, as she said yes. If you get in a situation like that, tell him to stop hitting things, ’cause it’s scaring you. Or walk away.
Re: “She made the judgement that her relationship wasn’t worth withholding sex”: I’m not sure this is the case. The judgement she made was very likely along the lines of whether the risk of being beaten up was at too high a level to be worth withholding sex. It sounds like he was behaving in a way that appeared crazy (repeated extremely intense anger/begging/whining) and was accompanied by what many women see as a sign of violence likely to be directed at them next (bed-pounding). What in his mind simply seemed like childish behavior plus hitting what he’s supposed to… Read more »
I just want to say, when I read that and had the image of a woman quietly asking, “Are you going to hurt me if I keep saying no?”, it hit me a lot more powerfully than any amount of yelling. I imagine that if I was in Davey’s position, that would have snapped me right back to reality.
My only problem with women learning to quietly ask “are you going to hurt me” to de-escalate the moment = women taking responsibility for men’s actions.
Why not ask men to learn to say, quietly, something like, “I’m sad that you don’t want to have sex with me” – ? And why not teach men to go to the couch or the guest room with his sadness?
“My only problem with women learning to quietly ask “are you going to hurt me” to de-escalate the moment = women taking responsibility for men’s actions.” What appears threatening to a woman may not appear threatening to a man though, so he may not have realized his actions caused fear. She needs to tell him that, it’s also possible she misread his actions and was feeling threatened when she shouldn’t have, asking can clarify that. Teach both, women (and men) to ask or say the behaviour is threatening, and for men (and women) to learn better ways to handle their… Read more »
As a man, sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to avoid a fight or three hours of explaining that yes, you’re still sexy and wonderful but I’m tired as shit and your whining isn’t attractive, and I’m going to want to sleep with you less tomorrow because I’ll remember this and on and on. I love women and sex and lots of both, but not always. And sometimes, like most men, I do what I have to do to avoid a fight. And trust me, maintaining a less-than-enthusiastic erection is much more difficult than laying… Read more »
This is absolutely another possible explanation for her actions. *Which she (or a guy in her situation) has a _right to do_ without the partner being accused of rape.* Is the partner being really icky? Yes. Is it possible the person who’s not into having sex at that time it is doing it out of fear, making it closer to a rape situation, but not quite there? Yes. Like I said before, we need to be able to talk about these situations–the folks insisting on calling them rape are _not_ helping folks improve their ability to engage in preventative communication… Read more »
“Still, once the nightgown is on, and we are both under the blankets, a woman generally longs for a sense of safety and love, and that makes her a little more vulnerable than the man who always feel safe.” Oh please, what men do you know that feel 100% safe in bed? I was shitting bricks nervous last time I was getting laid, I felt vulnerable, I worried about how sexy I was, worried about my performance, about her teeth on my penis, the fear of false rape accusations also in the back of the mind (no matter how rare… Read more »
Archy, now my blood is boiling! As Stefan writes, this article raises all kinds of anger (and other emotions) in – all of us. Okay, I get it that you are not emotionally safe in bed. I get the ways that you feel vulnerable. I hear you. But does it ever occur to you, when you go to bed with a woman, that she might physically hurt you? Does it ever occur to you that she might end up punching you in the face? I honestly don’t know, only you can answer. My guess is “no.” And yeah, yes, definitely,… Read more »
“But does it ever occur to you, when you go to bed with a woman, that she might physically hurt you? Does it ever occur to you that she might end up punching you in the face? I honestly don’t know, only you can answer. My guess is “no.”” Yes, it does. I know full well that in relationships women are plenty capable of being violent. What you’re advocating is women are more vulnerable than men in the bedroom, and you’re playing down the risks men face. You assume I don’t fear violence from women but I’ve had women punch… Read more »
Yikes. You are right, I was totally misandrist. You have opened my eyes about that.
I do understand that women can be violent.
All I want to add is that if you’ve been slapped for making a joke, and hit several or a few or many or whatever times for who-knows-what reasons, then I suggest you take a look at yourself. wtf? Something ain’t right somewhere.
Not sure if you’ve noticed or if it’s the same there but it’s quite common for young women to slap men, in highschool especially. There is this entitlement or overlooked behaviour where they feel completely fine hitting men. I’ve been punched by one for laughing at someone else’s joke, that had nothing to do with her but she thought I was laughing at her. These are jokes that guys don’t hit each other over, they’re made simply for a laugh and not to actually hurt anyone. Example if someone messes up their cooking and you laugh at it, usually you… Read more »
Archy, No, I would not say it to a woman hit by a man in a relationship or by friends. I can see that this sounds unfair. Listen. There’s _something_ different about women, yes? Women and men are not equal, right? They are equally important, but not equal. There are simply differences. That I can’t define them easily doesn’t make it less true. Yes, women slug men in the arm when they are playfully (or playfully seriously) (or just seriously) mad. I don’t have an answer for you about why that is okay. It’s been happening for just about forever,… Read more »
“Listen. There’s _something_ different about women, yes? Women and men are not equal, right? They are equally important, but not equal. There are simply differences. That I can’t define them easily doesn’t make it less true.” You mean like men should be paid more because they’re better workers? That women should shutup and accept a man’s rule because men are the head of the household, they’re dominant? No I don’t believe this, just pointing out where the men and women are different statements are often used to justify sexism. “No, I would not say it to a woman hit by… Read more »
Saying that women are different from men justifies sexism? Not to me. Different but treated with the same level of integrity. And yes we are excusing some of the actions of women. Women still can’t compete with men athletically. Men are stronger – a generalization I know, but still. So, yes. Men are responsible because they are stronger. They have more muscle and can handle a punch in the arm. Ahh, I can’t keep defending myself on this! Think what you wish! Good luck and farewell, I’ve gotta get to bed, by myself, within my own boundaries! This is a… Read more »
I’d agree there should be more asking and communication on the part of both parties. But still, for it to be rape of the type that deserves jail time, if the victim has the capacity (not asleep or significantly intoxicated) and the opportunity to object and is without reasonable fear of violence or other serious reprisal, then that person does need to clearly communicate what they are and are not ok with. There are a LOT of different levels of progression in a sexual encounter–continually needing to ask each other about every move of a hand or other body part… Read more »
yeah, i know. the logistics and rating systems would be ridiculously complex. i still like the way Gowan wrote it, and it swayed me in that direction. I’m a sway-er, I guess. I found this of interest from a website about rape: Gray Rape Young readers might think that “gray rape” has something to do with a certain popular BDSM bestseller, but it’s a term that’s officially been around since the ’90s. Most people think that Cosmopolitan invented the term “gray rape” in 2007, when Laura Session Stepp defined it as “sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and… Read more »
Is your point that we live in a society that too-readily uses jail time as a punishment? If so, I’d be willing to talk that out a bit. Jail sentences are incredibly destructive and our country has a particularly draconian prison system. But as long as it’s illegal to sell heroin and cocaine, HELL YES this deserves punishment.
The point is, the more broadly you define “rape”, the easier it is to say “I guess Rape isn’t always a big deal, after all.”
If I believed everything I read in this thread, I would be forced to conclude that it’s impossible to know for sure whether any sex is rape before you do it. And if *that* were true (it’s not), then Rape couldn’t be a matter for the criminal courts at all.
love this: “the person asking is not interested in real consent; just in the “yes” that will make it not-rape.”
thank you for making it so clear.
Why do many of you all keep saying “It is not rape if he pestered her until she said “yes””? If someone says “no” to sex, it is obvious that the person asked does not want sex. Asking again and again, throwing a tantrum and so on, shows that the person asking is not interested in real consent; just in the “yes” that will make it not-rape. Someone who does not want non-consensual sex (i.e. does not want to rape someone) would accept a “no”, since, obviously, real consent cannot be obtained at that moment. (nor three seconds or minutes… Read more »
Therefore, you think Davey deserves jail time?
“(nor three seconds or minutes or even hours later, in most cases)”
Hours later? Like when they aren’t busy and you ask again and if they say yes it’s somehow rape now? wtf.
Let me emphasize something here. I know I already wrote it, but to keep it clear: The consensus here seems to be that the woman should say No if she means No. That sounds sensible at first. But the more deeply I consider it, the more I see it as a 2 way street. The guy should ask; that is part of his responsibility. If he doesn’t ask, not even once, then why should his woman be expected to keep saying No? And why isn’t he curious about her feelings and thoughts? Also, for a lot of people, sex is… Read more »
Collin, do you always have to ask your woman if she had an orgasm? Do you always have to ask your woman if she’s happy or sad or tired or whatever? We all know body language, we all know, ideally, our partners quite well. I’m not talking about reading minds. I’m talking about knowing your woman. If you know her and if you know her over time, and if you know her way of being in the world, and if you know her way of thinking and if you really really know her, then do you need her to say… Read more »
I’ve gotten body language wrong when thinking someone is happy when they aren’t. If a woman isn’t mature enough to communicate her consent properly and relies solely on the guys interpretation of her body language then you’re going to run into issues, boundaries will be crossed because not everyone is an expert at reading body language. Know how people say they read the signs wrong? She smiles at you, you’re dating her, you kiss her and she pushes you off because she’s got a headache yet didn’t tell you anything except a smile that everytime before meant she wanted sex.… Read more »
I think a LOT of people don’t realize body language is not obvious to others. I do agree it’s very important to verbalize. Folks are pretty used to _not_ verbalizing when giving sexual signals, so it’s going to be a long haul getting people to talk more about it when they’re in the moment. I _do_ think it’s important to say “no” when you don’t want to do something!
Anat, of course you are right that we need to learn to say “no” when we don’t want to do something. And as you can see from my response to Archy, I think ASKING is very important too. What woman wants to keep TELLING when the guy isn’t ASKING? If he doesn’t “see” your yawn and continues moving toward sex without asking if you’re tired, you have to tell him. If he can’t “see” that you turning away from him is possibly a signal that you don’t want sex, and if he doesn’t ASK “Do you want to mess around?”… Read more »
Hmm. Well, let me try again. I am not talking about body language. I don’t know — there I am again with those 3 words, I don’t know — I guess here I am again, like Anat pointed out, thinking in terms of a long term relationship. For a short term one, or a one nighter, well, yes, we do rely on some limited amount of body language. But I would never expect a guy to read my mind. But I also do not think every single thought gets said out loud. Some are understood. Some are misunderstood. Let me… Read more »
Obviously it is better if there is clearer communication. But in these grey areas, does one or both people really deserve to go to jail? I think that to most people, “rape” means that the perpetrator should go to prison. Does Davey really deserve to be jailed if he wasn’t physically violent (did not physically hurt _her_ and didn’t realize punching a pillow appeared threatening to her?) I’ll just reiterate that I think he was acting pretty jerky but that she _did_ have a reasonable option to continue to refuse. I really don’t think anyone deserves jail time unless they… Read more »
Overall, here’s what I’m asking everybody.
Are we really embracing this idea? That a man cannot tell if a woman really wants sex unless she says Yes? Or, conversely, that a man cannot tell if a woman really does NOT want sex unless she says No?
If you guys are that blind to your woman’s emotions, then that is just too sad.
Reading someone’s mind is not part of our job description, sorry. There’s this wonderful thing that we humans have called verbal communication. We use these things called “words” that have “meanings” and when you say words it is assumed that you mean what you say — barring instances of humor. I tend to believe what people say, and I don’t make a habit of building multi-level mind games out of everything. Maybe you have such a low opinion of women that you don’t think they mean what they say and have a pathological problem with telling the truth, but I… Read more »
I know a _lot_ of guys who have a ton of trouble reading body language. Verbalizing helps a lot. On the other hand, when you are frozen in fear it’s hard to verbalize. If your partner’s just pestering you should say something. BUT, if the pestering is so intense it seems crazy, and he’s also bed-pounding, and you don’t know whether the bed-pounding means he’s trying not to hit you or that it’s indicative of escalating violence, you should do whatever you think’s going to keep you safest, I’d say. It’s so hard to tell when you’re not right there.… Read more »
This is a tricky one. I’ve been in both situations where exs have woken me up because they were in the mood and I wasn’t (and vice versa) and I’ve complied not because I wanted to have sex but because I wanted to make my girlfriend happy. So this is now rape??
Of course, sex should only be consensual. But part of being in a healthy relationship is wanting to please the other person.
Yes Roy M. same thing happen to me, both X’es and gf. And if I dont find myself in the mood or if I have to get early up in the morning (sleep is important to me) they can get so pissy over my lack of willingness. And sometimes it even exploded in arguing and fight, uintill I either consent or go to sleep at the sofa.
I think most men have been in that situation, that’s where the giving in after pestering = Rape issue falls apart. I’ve given in when I didn’t want to, even when my very nasty heart condition made it risky, Did that mean my wife Raped me? If that’s going to be the new standard for sexual relationships expect one heck of a lot of women to be charged with rape. An Erection does not equal consent .
I’d say agreeing even though you don’t really feel like it but do want to make the other person happy is fine. I think individual situations of getting pissy or pestering or arguing isn’t rape but deserves condemnation. Especially with the heart condition issue–I don’t think I’d tolerate a partner who pestered me for sex where it presented a life-threatening issue! I’d probably not call it rape, but certainly rational grounds for a break-up. Anyway, with pestering I don’t think it’s ok regardless of gender, but I don’t think it’s rape.
But she didn’t say he raped her–Davey wrote that she said “she _felt like_ she’d been raped.” I think saying that she _felt like_ she’d been raped is reasonable to say, since his behavior was such (pounding on bed with fists, anger, tantrum) that she wasn’t sure she could leave without getting hurt. There’s a pretty big difference between saying “I feel like I’ve been raped” and “you raped me.” The former means “I feel _as though_ I’ve been raped [although I was not in fact raped].” If he had known his behavior was having this effect, then engaging in… Read more »
Bleah–this was supposed to go under Ben’s comment. Sorry.
Davey, thank you for writing this. You show great bravery for thinking about it and writing it. These responses are mostly maddening, in my opinion. Of course it was rape, and it shows you are a good person because you are willing to write about it and to process it internally. A verbal “yes” is not necessarily a true “yes.” A verbal “yes” can be a true “no.” I am a feminist, but that does not mean that I think women are always strong. Women are vulnerable beings, especially once in bed, undressed, ready for sleep. We are vulnerable in… Read more »
I can’t tell if you’re serious, or if I’m being Poed. If serious, then besides presenting one of the most chauvenistic descriptions of women and sex I’ve ever seen, you’ve also described consent such that it’s impossible for anyone to ever know when yes is a yes, so all sex is rape. I’m glad to say, I think very few people would agree, even feminists.
Gosh, Marcus, you’re a real charmer. My post was and is serious. You think it impossible to tell when a woman really wants to say No but gives in and says Yes instead? Then you, Mr. Williams, are not taking the time to really get to know your woman. Women as weak flowers, yes, once we’re in bed we become smaller and much more vulnerable. It’s the way life is for human beings. It takes a brave feminist to say this out loud, to write it. And that brave feminist is me, at least in this discussion. And in case… Read more »
Sorry, I am not a weak flower. You do not speak for me or for all women.
I hear you, ok.
well generally women have the ability to verbal communication, if a woman say no, then its no period. If she say yes then its yes (unless somebody is holding a gun on her). And no I disagree that sex is a gift women give to me. LoL sex is something we do together its not a concession somebody does to another. If she wants my body, I can say no…if im not in the right mood, or yes if I am 🙂
For the rest, if you consider yourself a fragile weak flower, maybe you are? who knows…. 🙂
Mr. Supertypo, of course we make love together. But don’t you see any credibility at all in what I am saying? Women open themselves up, quite literally, and invite men to enter.
I’m pretty sure I never wrote the word “weak.” I wrote “vulnerable.” Opening one’s self up to being entered is a vulnerable position and invitation. Nuff said.
In my opinion, saying women aren’t capable of saying “no” to pestering, absent a real threat, robs of us a huge amount of power/agency/self-determination. I’m not willing to say women are so lacking in ability we don’t even have the ability to say no in the face of mere pestering. I just think you’re wrong.
Thank you for your comments, Mary, and I appreciate your words. I’d like to think that there’s at least some bravery involved in this, sure. I’d like to think that my willingness to try and self-examine and confront this in my own mind is some kind of boon; some kind of plus in the grand cosmic columns. I also think that it’s literally the least I can do if I want my interest in feminism and equality and good, non-harmful masculinity to actually mean anything other than to be band-aids I toss on my psyche to make me feel better… Read more »
Davey, We’ve all pounded the bed in frustration at some point. It’s a hell of a lot safer than putting a fist through a wall. You are being way too hard on yourself, my friend. You validate all of your girlfriend’s post-coital rebukes while lashing yourself with contemptuous words. She said yes. Petulant huffs and passive-aggressive sighs do not equal reasonable physical threats. Did you physically prevent her from leaving the house? Did you force her to take off her clothes? Was she intoxicated past the point of consent? As a writer and teacher and single dad who often stays… Read more »
Huh. I will think about your comment next time I consider initiating sex with my boyfriend. Maybe it is better not to. No way do I want him to reluctantly satisfy my clitoral needs with obligatory sex.
Suit yourself. If he’s willing to drop the rest of his life whenever you ask I imagine you’ll bore of him soon enough.
I was with a man sexually who was in a privately open relationship (those people who needed to know did but he didn’t advertise the fact nor did his wife). We had a long history of sexual encounters at the point this incident took place. It was new years eve. He was drinking with some girlfriend of his. I was at home an in the midst of some family health crises and my own cancer scare. It had all come to a head over a period of a week. I am bisexual and this man thusly thought that bisexual equates… Read more »
Kat, as you say your experience is a whole other monster.
If he verbally threatened you (and you had gone through with it) then that WOULD have been rape.
But just wheedling and cajoling is more about making the other person feel guilty and/or wear them down.
That is not rape, but it is unethical, rude and bullying behavior.
Pestering someone into consenting to have sex is not rape. It’s petty and intrusive and really bad personal boundaries and feels shitty to the person who consents, but it’s not rape. You can rightly consider it a bad way to treat someone else, but that’s not the same as rape. I’m afraid that if we stretch the definition of rape too broadly, it will become meaningless. For example, I remember as an undergrad attending a speak out against rape and violence against women. (At the time, only women were allowed to speak at the microphone.) One young woman said that… Read more »
I totally agree.
Two things: 1. I don’t think that simply whining and pestering until one person “gives in” counts as rape. Stressful and sometimes legitimately traumatic, yes, but not something that deserves legal consequences. I’d say it deserves some type of censure, though–the person who “gives in” certainly is justified in saying the other’s behavior was not ok or was morally bad and should be changed in the future, or in breaking up with the other person. 2. I’m guessing this is a highly unconventional opinion, but I think there are some situations where one person is experiencing rape or something very… Read more »
That’s a very mature and well thought out narrative.
Thank you.
Legally, consent in cases of alleged sexual assault is judged by an “objective standard” which means the jury is told to consider how “reasonable people” would have acted. So if one person gives objective indications of consent, their subjective feelings aren’t relevant if not communicated. Similarly, the jury must decide whether the alleged perpetrator’s conduct would have overcome the resistance of a reasonable person. If someone is charged with raping an intoxicated person, the jury must decide if the victim was too intoxicated to consent and whether the perpetrator knew or reasonably should have known that. Actually, “date rape” cases… Read more »
Ok, that fits in with how I was hoping the legal system would have worked in the incident where I was heavily intoxicated. I remember enough of what happened to be comfortable saying I was giving the impression of willing participation. So having sex with someone who is heavily intoxicated isn’t illegal if s/he is appearing to participate willingly or verbally consents and does not withdraw consent? That’s not what I’ve heard before and it makes me uneasy on behalf of other people. I’d like to hold myself to that standard, though, in the same way I’d hold myself to… Read more »
Legally the question is whether the person is too intoxicated to consent. There’s no bright line definition of where that point is. It depends on the facts. An intoxicated person can be capable of consent. Cal Penal Code 261(a)(2) says its rape if the person is “prevented from resisting” due to intoxication.
Discussions on this topic get confusing because what people mean by “rape” is often not consistent with the legal definitions, which are very specific.
Not rape. Absolutely, positively, under-no-circumstances rape. Consent was given. Period. Having sex with someone in order to get him to shut up and stop whining is a choice, just as buying a toy for a nagging child is a choice. Your only crime was whining and begging for affection from an unenthusiastic woman–a crime every heterosexual man has committed. Certainly not your proudest moment, in fact, even pathetic, but we’ve all been there at least once. I’m sure the sex was less than fulfilling–for you and for her no doubt–but I’m just as sure that you have done nothing wrong.… Read more »
I’m not understanding why the guys are focusing on the whining instead of the fact that she was afraid he was going to hurt her because he was acting so angry. We can’t know how angry or threatening he appeared to be. She was afraid he would hurt her if he refused, and that to me makes the situation very borderline. I doubt it was prosecutable (or should have been), but at the same time it sounds like _her_ experience was that she did not really have a reasonable choice–she felt she was risking being physically hurt if she didn’t… Read more »
An earlier comment said “He punched the bed. That’s threatening.” My first reaction was “No, that’s whining.”
Guys are focusing on the whining because they don’t really *see* the threat. We know that we at least stand a chance in a fight with another unarmed man, and potential attackers know it too. Our experience tells us that he won’t *actually* attack unless he’s drunk or at least a little crazy.
Punching the bed means he can’t control his emotions, and he doesn’t want to attack you. That might actually seem *weak*. Davey described it as a childish “temper tantrum”.
Yeah, I’ve started figuring this out now! Until I read all of this I would likely have considered punching a bed to be very frightening and threatening. (And the intense whining to be pretty crazy, depending on how insistent/intense it was.) I get a pretty intense fear response any time a guy starts yelling; my instinct is to do whatever it takes to calm him down. Not sure how it is for most women, but I’d imagine most of us assume we’re going to lose a physical confrontation with a guy. So any show of anger that involves physicality is… Read more »
Sorry, but I don’t agree that this can be called rape. If you are in a relationship with someone and she agreed to have sex with you even though she was tired or whatever other reason, then it is consensual. Women have to take responsibility for their actions and stop playing the victim all the time. Take control of your life and stop being swayed into doing things you don’t want to. Have some backbone. If you don’t want to have sex with someone then just say no. Don’t go along with it and then the next day tell the… Read more »
I know right (to the last sentence)?
What happened to “I am women hear me roar”?
John D, this IS women roaring.
“whiny or obnoxious behaviour is not the same as threatening behaviour. Maybe this seems insensitive but I’m tired of constantly seeing women being portrayed as weak, helpless beings who can’t control their circumstances.”
I agree. I don’t feel like “wearing-down” is something women are helpless against. I certainly wouldn’t consider myself raped just because I acquiesced to whining.
To clarify, I’m saying this with regard to a one-time event. Not with regard to long-term psychological abuse.
“Maybe this seems insensitive but I’m tired of constantly seeing women being portrayed as weak, helpless beings who can’t control their circumstances.” Yes! Since reading this article I’ve started reading more and I’m getting really shocked at some folks who are calling “rape” things like repeated requests for sex (followed by the other person saying “yes”) or mutual fondling leading to mutually engaged-in sex after an initial “no.” If my “yes” isn’t due to physical threat or other serious threat (being fired, etc.), I expect to be taken at my word–women are perfectly capable of standing up to simple pestering.… Read more »
Hi again Anat,
Yeah I get that. I’d like to be considered capable of making my own decisions. Sex is….such a big frikking deal isn’t it? My ex used to say “Men step on the gas, women step on the brakes, and that’s just the way it is.” I wish it were that simple!
It is definitely complicated! I agree!
Many sex positive feminists expound the importance of enthusiastic consent. Often they defend it by noting that the enthusiasm doesn’t have to be about the sex itself, but something associated with it. However if the enthusiasm she feels in for him to stop whining and STFU that doesn’t sound so great to me. So I agree with the notion that it isn’t rape, it isn’t a crime, but it is still a very bad thing for a relationship. It’s natural for a guy to get upset, but it the only mature thing to do is masturbation. I have heard of… Read more »
this happened when i was a virgin. it was with a guy who i considered one of my best friends. when i actually gave in, in the moment, i don’t think considering how i fell about it even came into play. i didn’t know how to deal with it, and he hadn’t listened to all the other ‘no’s. the one thing that would get him off of the subjection, and stop whining and begging, and let me move on with my day, just happened to involve giving him whatever he wanted. he was sixteen, so was i, and he didn’t… Read more »
Ditto what Elle wrote.
Elle, you pulled it all together in your response, thank you.
Pretty much exactly this happened to me once with an ex boyfriend. The details are different, of course, but the basics were the same. He wanted to have sex, I didn’t. He went on and on and on about it (although he didn’t threaten me) until eventually I gave in and said yes…even though I still didn’t want to. While we were having sex I was asking myself if it was rape. Afterwards I told a friend about it and she didn’t think it was a big deal, so I thought maybe I was wrong. I didn’t feel great about… Read more »
It’s not rape.
It’s not rape. It’s bullying and manipulation yes. But, stating it was rape reduces your agency in deciding (DECIDING) to have sex. Real rape victims do not get to make a decision. I agree it’s unfair and unethical and rude, but it’s definitely not rape. I have seen this being a prominent theme from many feminists (not that you’re making this point), that ANY coercion or “uninvited touching” to try and rev her engine should be legally considered sex assault. If that’s the case then my wife has sexually assaulted me several times fondling me without invitation. Adult functional women… Read more »
I agree its not rape and if it were rape you wouldn’t be confused about how to feel about it.
Not rape. No way, no how. Consent can’t be retroactively revoked, or almost everybody with an ex who ever consented to sex would turn into a rapist. This comment/post muddied the already murky waters by combining coercion and wearing down as if they’re the same thing. “Coercion” can include circumstances that would pretty indisputably be rape, like if someone threatens violence to get consent – with or without a weapon – that’s not really consent, it’s coercion. “Wearing down”, along the lines of begging, pleading, whining, persuading, etc. is not that kind of coercion. All those things can feel shitty,… Read more »
I experienced that kind of intense whining/pestering for sex from boyfriends a few times in my early 20’s. Sometimes I gave in, feeling very irritated, but I would not call it rape. I could have said no, I never felt threatened, it just became such an issue at that particular moment that I finally said “ok let’s just get this over with.” I have never encountered that kind of behavior from a man after my early-mid 20’s. Maybe I’ve just been fortunate but I think it was immature behavior caused by my boyfriends’ youth, lack of frustration tolerance, and overwhelming… Read more »
Tori, I’m sorry you are being bullied here.
Believe what your heart is telling you.
Seriously? She didn’t have the ability to say no just because he was asking a bunch of times? I don’t think women are even close to being that weak. And I don’t think it does us any favors to say we are. It felt traumatic and super crappy to her, absolutely. Her experience was bad. She is entitled to feel it was traumatic. She is entitled to call the guy a big jerk. But pestering is not rape. And as an incest survivor, yes, I think to say so massively trivializes actual rape and sexual assault. The pestering case needs… Read more »
Hi Anat, again you have a good point. I think I’m going to do some research about the definition of rape. Maybe we could call it molestation? I think it’s like manslaughter, accidentally killing someone. Davey was driving the car, he didn’t “see” her saying no, and he ran over here. I’m an incest survivor too. More vague than most. A brother 9 yrs older than me who took me on a motorcycle ride, I was 13 and he was 22. We went into some stores and pretended to be married, kissed and made out. Ewww, when I think it… Read more »
Thanks, Mary. It does sound like there are pretty different definitions of rape going on. A comparison to manslaughter (accidental) makes sense. I don’t think a bed-puncher should be legally culpable without a past history, but I definitely think the woman in the girlfriend’s situation should be believed to have gone through a serious trauma, and the bed-puncher educated about how threatening his behavior appeared. Really, I think so much depends on exactly how frightening he appeared, how crazy he seemed to be with the intense whining, whether she was cornered or had easy access to an exit and safe… Read more »
Hi, I got nervous reading your post, just thinking about being in the position of wondering if I could tiptoe out and make it to the door, those kinds of things. Eww. And yes, education – a big sigh. I’m in an “I don’t know” stage on this whole thing!
I’m so sorry about your repeated molestations from your brother. And isn’t it amazing how our instincts often involve protecting the molester? I mean, there you were, so humiliated that you couldn’t let your molester know that you knew. Hoo, we humans can be a sad bunch.
Yeah, I’m on the fence about that. I think I was meaning more something along the lines of taking a couple of steps and seeing if he’s going to stay where he is or act more threatening. But does a person really have the presence of mind to test that sort of thing if they’re feeling threatened? So much grey area.
Well, I think anyone who’s been in these kinds of positions certainly deserves to think what they want about it! “I don’t know” is pretty freakin rational!
Did you actually threaten her or just whine?
He punched the bed. That is threatening her.
He punched the bed and then started calming down. He didn’t punch the bed and then go after her.
Sigh. This morning I just don’t know. I truly believe that once a guy punches a bed or a wall or a whatever, then that threatening behavior isn’t invalid just because he stops that behavior.
I know a therapist who wrote a book about relationships, and she says that each partner gets ONE punch or push or slap or whatever. One. And, this is super important, they must afterwards be contrite, seek therapy, be willing to discuss it as long as it takes for the hurt person to feel safe again, deeply safe. Interesting, yes?
I punch punching bags when angry, but have zero interest in hitting someone. The act itself of punching something releases a bit of anger and doesn’t have anything to do with wanting to be violent to someone. Sometimes people just lash out with frustration, could be that men are more prone to this whilst women lash out with words more? I treat someone punching a pillow as less threatening as someone directly yelling at me as to me punching a pillow is just frustration and I’d rather them take it out on a pillow vs me.
Sounds like this is something that would be _really_ helpful for men and women to be more knowledgeable about. I’d guess most women would see someone who was angry at them and punching a bed as being frightening and threatening–“he’s punching stuff, is he going to punch ME next?” But sounds like a lot of men grow up being advised to punch a pillow when they are mad, specifically so they _won’t_ punch a person. If more women had that dynamic in mind they would interpret the threat level differently, and if more men know how threatening it looks when… Read more »
Yep. It’s like a steam valve, think of it as going pashooooooooo and releasing pressure vs a gun being loaded.
Mary, I agree that it is threatening behavior. Just that if he’s punching a bed and then stops and starts sighing, it’s not imminent enough to mean the subsequent sex qualifies as rape. Additional violence seems _possible_ but without a past history, perhaps not probable. But this depends on past behavior–if bed-punching by the person in question is sometimes followed by people-punching, that’s a different matter entirely. I do agree that either way, what the guy is doing is NOT OK. I just don’t think it’s rape in the first case.
true Anat, I agree depends of the story of the person. But usually when people punch a pillow or wall is because they dont want to hurt other people. But the angry punching is not the real issue, IMO, the real issue is why he got so mad. whats the matter its just sex. It isnt like he lost 10.000 bucks. She just wasn’t in the mood because she was tired. Same thing Kan happen to me. I can also be tired, and actually it happen a few times. One night my x-x gf got all offended and went to… Read more »
Did you apologize and did relationship survive?
This is a first. The issue comes between marrieds consistently, and can undermine trust. If sex cannot be discussed, and resolved, it should not happen. Some folks never understand.
Count yourself blessed.
As f’d up the circumstance may be we should not consider this “rape” it’s coersion and it’s giving in to pressure and it’s got something to do with less willpower and a keep trying attitude but rape is taking it forcefully. Rape is even that last stroke after they say stop but this isn’t rape. Also insinuating that it IS rape is an extremist point of view. You MAY (as in maybe but not definitely) be a scumbag, but a rapist you are not (as in DEFINITELY not). However you can choose to define yourself however you please. But don’t… Read more »
I’d say the real issue is that she was afraid he was going to hurt her if she refused: “she’d felt scared by my anger, and worried I’d hurt her if she didn’t say yes.” The “wearing down” is beside the point. We can’t know how angry or threatening he appeared to be. She was afraid he would hurt her if he refused, and that to me makes the situation very borderline.
I’d say the real issue is that she was afraid he was going to hurt her if she refused: “she’d felt scared by my anger, and worried I’d hurt her if she didn’t say yes.” The “wearing down” is beside the point. We can’t know how angry or threatening he appeared to be. She was afraid he would hurt her if he refused, and that to me makes the situation very borderline. I doubt it was prosecutable (or should have been), but at the same time it sounds like _her_ experience was that she did not really have a reasonable… Read more »
Hi Anat, I may have never touched her, but I did pound the bed between us in frustration a few times. Again, pretty much like a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum might. I… can’t say that I would have found it threatening myself, but I also recognize that that’s coming from a place of A.) male privilege and B.) I’m a big, muscular guy. She wasn’t. The dynamics are completely different. I wrestle with some of the memories to this day and it’s been five years. But my own personal doubts aren’t enough to deligitimize how she feels. She… Read more »
My personal opinion is that if you weren’t intending to be physically intimidating, and weren’t aware that you were appearing to be physically intimidating, then your level of culpability was pretty low, even though she may have experienced it as something traumatic and/or where she didn’t have a lot of choice because she wasn’t sure she could safely leave the apartment. (We need better language for this sort of situation!) Your behavior sounds like could have seemed bizarre to her, and coupled with the fist-pounding I’m sure I would have felt concerned for my safety if I were in her… Read more »
I should maybe also point out that in the situation with the athlete, although it was difficult, I don’t really feel victimized, either–in a way, I felt brave that I got myself out of there without getting physically hurt or having unprotected intercourse. Mentally I’ve tended to resist the feeling of being victimized–I’m not a fan of the trains of thought that seem to me to add more ideas of victimization than need to be there. The word people are using is agency, I think–in that situation and the one I describe below where I was heavily intoxicated, holding onto… Read more »
Anat, I can’t even read beyond your first sentence. Are you really saying that abuse only happens when the man is intentionally abusive? Did you know that if a man is angry and waves his arms around in the air – and if the woman tries to shush him and he accidentally hits her while her hands is reached out – did you know that is considered domestic abuse? It is, in Michigan. And do you think that every man who punches a woman in the face plans it ahead of time? They all say that it wasn’t intentional, they… Read more »
Punching someone isn’t legal regardless of intent, yes. It actually causes bodily harm regardless. Making someone afraid that bodily harm might occur? I think intent matters there. It sounds like he’d calmed down a bit before she said yes, wasn’t still punching the bed. Doesn’t threat usually need to be imminent? I think the guy deserves censure, but not being labeled a rapist. I don’t think the situation meets the standard of of an imminent threat. OTOH, I think the gal reasonably felt as if she’d been raped. It’s hard to say for sure since I don’t know to what… Read more »
Anat, you have some good points. I’m sorry I was so impatient with you previously. It’s such a complex issue, isn’t it? No easy answers. I still think there’s a degree of vulnerability for women that happens when they are in pj’s or a nightgown, under the covers and suddenly being harassed. Does that vulnerability allow her to call it rape? I don’t know. Someone in my life once convinced me to go to a hotel room with him, he convinced me to say okay to having hookers come to the hotel room to have girl-on-girl sex. The agreement was… Read more »
I want to follow up my last comment with this information. The guy and I were in a long term relationship and there was a high level of trust assumed after years being together. He worked on me for at least a year to even say Yes to the whole hooker thing. I’m a strong woman. I should have kept saying No. I should have left the relationship. So many “shoulds.”
Also, I really have _no words_ for that man you were with. Well, I do but I can’t even begin to say them here!!! I am so incredibly sorry you had to go through that. That man deserves to rot.
And in that situation _your_ ability to say no or leave was highly compromised. He’d engaged in some horrid long-term manipulation.
Hi, thanks. I can’t believe I even wrote about it, and I thank you very much for your empathetic response. Makes me feel like crying, as if I haven’t cried enough about it over the years. Yes to the long-term manipulation, a sad case in a relationship that I shoulda gotten out of years earlier.
I think part of the reason you and I have had a difference of opinion here hinges on the difference between a first-time incident and one where there’s been long-term manipulation or mental or physical abuse prior. I was assuming the former in all my comments, and I think your basis was the latter; there’s a huge difference there, I would say, and I’d lean _much_ more toward your interpretation in a number cases given a prior abusive history in the relationship. If Davey had physically abused his girlfriend before the point he describes, I’d be far more likely to… Read more »
Anat, yes, I agree. I’m really glad we are more in alignment. What a relief! However, for Davey’s case, it seems like his relationship with the female “victim” was not new, right? We are all getting so far onto other tracks, I might need to go re-read Davey’s original post! At any rate, it seems to me that the 2 of them had established a certain level of trust. So, yeah, there is a huge difference between a first-time sex experience, or a one-night stand. In Davey’s case, it was a fairly long term relationship. On the other hand, he… Read more »
I’m relieved too. It’s _great_ to talk it out and understand where we’re coming from and how that’s influencing our assumptions better! Thank you so much. I’m guessing that she was afraid, but that instinctively (not consciously) she was weighing potential risk of refusing against “well, I’ve slept with him a number of times before and doing it again even though I don’t feel like it isn’t dangerous.” When you’re afraid you probably just do what seems safest without having time to think it through carefully. It sounds like long-term manipulation/mental abuse can just happen so slowly and incrementally that… Read more »
I’ve dated a few women who I know have rape fantasies and like the Louis CK joke I never “went for it”. Pressuring a women into sex? Maybe your girl just isn’t very attracted to you or her sex drive is null. I can see how this is an issue with people but so is the flip side of the coin were the access to sex is used as coercion in very painful and unhealthy relationships. People are a mess.
I can help thinking this ban on speaking freely of dark and natural sexual urges is a uniquely American trait, much like our insane preoccupation with secondhand smoke–no, you won’t get cancer from the guy puffing his Camel 50 yards away–and our inability to enjoy food without feeling shame. RE the rape fantasy: a Colombian friend sees them as perfectly normal and frequent among her friends and wonders why we can’t just accept them as part and parcel of the human experience. Uptight Americans we are.