This comment by Reese was in response to “The Wrath of The Feminists: A Discussion of Masculinity, Gender, and Feminism”
What Tom came across to me as calling for in his article was space for men to be able to discuss their experiences as men. That seems to be the whole purpose of this site, or I thought it was at least. When Tom notes that most of the people that listen to his talks on manhood are women, or that women are the ones in the comments on his articles, or on Twitter, I think he is pointing out that feminists, mostly women, are dominating the discussion on *both* genders.
I don’t think Tom has anything against feminism. I would personally consider Tom a feminist-ally. What I think what Tom is trying to convey is a frustration with feminists who, intentionally or not, are demanding men “play be their rules” when it comes to discussing manhood. I think this comes from a suspicion that when men want to have an active voice and role in talking about gender, it is something regressive and anti-female.
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Men should not have to check-in first with women/feminists in general to see if their feelings are valid.
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The people attacking Tom want him first to acknowledge them as the gatekeepers: either you agree with them or your feelings and experiences are invalid. And in order for them to validate his feelings and experiences, he must accept their views.
What’s at issue is that Tom is talking about men discussing their thoughts and feelings in spaces for men. When men are sharing their stories, and making space for themselves to discuss manhood, it should be organic, on their own terms. Men should not have to check-in first with women/feminists in general to see if their feelings are valid. They are sharing something that is part of their daily existence – their own unique, valid experiences as men.
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photo: DieselDemon / Flickr
About the Editors
I’m curious about whether the author of this comment (and other male writers/commenters) would prefer there be no female writers or commenters on the GMP site. Sometimes it seems that the female view might be considered helpful to the dialogue since women are 50% of the population and are men’s sisters, wives, mothers, daughters, etc. Other times the message seems to be clear that men would prefer this site to be their own space, free of women. As a female writer, this is something I’m thinking a lot about this week. This is a straightforward question.
Keep on writing Lori, you write well and have a valuable voice(remember i think youre ‘awesome’) to contribute. If someone disagrees with your article or comment, just dismiss them as a ‘jackass’ – thats what i do lol.
Like assman below, I have no problem with women whether feminist or not dominating the writing of articles or comments. I should write articles about the history of clothing, or how Im a ‘crossdresser’, or how I now behave like i saw middle aged men do when i was a young man (sex is no longer a priority, and diminished capacity to automatically empathise/sympathise) – but i dont and i wont(My fingers only currently stir into life, as a reaction to a point in an article or comment).
I enjoy the interaction between the men and women.
The men who complain should write articles, if they believe too many women write. Every man has interesting stories, perspectives on masculinities.
Lori, dont be chased off
Thanks very much. I’m just thinking about a lot of stuff, how best to contribute, how to be honest and true to myself, how to best honor the mission of the site, how to grow a thicker skin when needed. I enjoy the interaction between men and women too…usually. I don’t like when anyone–man or woman–does the angry anonymous attack thing, but that is the internet for you. I wrote on the topic for HuffPo recently–about Godwin’s Law. That helped me work through some of the frustration. I think that in the discussion of feminism, which is usually quite negative on this site, it is hard to deal with some of the viciousness and be a female writer here. It’s still a worthy challenge, though!
Females can offer helpful input to the discussion, certainly… as individuals.
Feminism, however, is a female-centered and female-oriented viewpoint. It’s simply not relevant or helpful to a discussion of masculinity, any more than a barrage of complaints about President Obama would be.
Feminism has tried to drive discussions about men and men’s issues before–for example, the blog NSWATM (No seriously, what about the men?). But those experiments have failed because they tried to set boundaries on what men were allowed to do and say in the discussions of what it means to BE a man. They effectively silenced men in favor of channeling the discussion along feminist-approved lines that worked in feminism’s favor. That’s like allowing you any flavor of ice cream you like, as long as it’s chocolate.
A discussion forum ABOUT men should necessarily be mostly driven BY men; women may offer useful input and insights, but an attempt to seize control and shift the focus onto themselves and their issues simply doesn’t work.
Wow, I am flattered that my comment was at all noteworthy!
It is interesting that you assume I am a man by what I wrote. Many women/feminists want men to have spaces to have this sort of discussion. The phrase “what about teh menz” comes to mind, the response to men who are vocally pointing out issues that men face as a group in feminist spaces. I think it is appropriate that men should not be the focus of groups centered on the issues that women face, and it can be disruptive when they want that kind of attention and acknowledgement there.
I think their fear is that this space Tom is talking about is something reactive, like some of the MRA-type websites, and hostile to feminism or women in general. I don’t blame them for having this suspicion in general, but I think if you look at what Tom has done with this project, their attacks are inappropriate. There is a difference between proactive and reactive. Tom wants men to have a space where their issues are a priority and they can discuss them in the manner that feels right to them. Tom is being proactive in creating this space, so it seems very inappropriate to me to tell him he is in the wrong here.
The issue I had with what was going on in Tom’s Twitter feed was that the others were more-or-less trying to shut Tom down. It was an argument about whether men should be able to discuss their feelings and issues without having to first subscribe to feminism.
Being hostile to feminism and simply disagreeing with it in some areas are two different things. I think that some of the MRA-type sites are reactions by men who have issues they face and they feel, justly or otherwise, that feminism and feminists are minimizing them. What is essentially a “with us or against us” argument being rehashed by the people in Tom’s feed is just odd to me. There doesn’t have to be a “war.”
Giving men positive, constructive, thoughtful environments to discuss manhood is pro-feminist. Men thinking about their gender and reflecting on their experiences in this way helps feminism. That is why there are feminists who want men to build these spaces. These feminists acknowledge that men have issues to face, but don’t want them coopting the discussion on women in order to do so. The problem occurs when feminists require men to go through them before they can actually build this environment and have this discussion.
To answer your question, I don’t feel that this means men don’t want women participating at all, but I do acknowledge that there are men who would like to just discuss some of these issues with other men. I’ve read some wonderful articles on here written by women and I think it is helpful for the dialogue to have women involved. The friction occurs when women/feminists start to dictate to men how they should feel, what “true” manhood is, how serious their problems “really” are, what the causes are, and how they should act or talk when discussing them.
Reese
I also wonder why some did not recognize Tom’s use of irony? He is known for his ironic one liners when he wants yo make a point.
There own comments were laced with Irony!
As they say – give some people Irony and they will think it’s Iron and make it into a weapon to lash back.
It wasn’t just shutting down communication that was a factor – but also how!
It is interesting that you assume I am a man by what I wrote.
I think it was your name, that may have triggered that automatic assumption
Yep, that’s all it was. And I still don’t know if the author is male or female. Not sure if it does or doesn’t matter.
Thank you for replying so thoughtfully.
Eiye, that was a great post by Reese
I don’t have a problem with women dominating this site or with the feminists dominating discussions and articles. I have a problem with the defaults that accompany the domination.
The default of this site is feminist. I have been accused of trolling for criticizing feminism repeatedly. A snarky comment is never accused of trolling if it agrees with the values of the dominant group. And there have been many snarky feminist comments on various articles that are very anti-male.
The main problem with this site is that because this site has many feminists commenting and writing it is presumed that this is a feminist site.
GMP isn’t feminist. It never was. Please remember that. So don’t presume that we have to agree with you or your feminist POV.
I don’t think feminists dominate this site. I’ve seen statistics quite to the contrary. But when women write or comment, it may stand out more, especially if the positions are not liked. And let’s say 20-something percent of the readers/writers are female and 80-something percent male (those are the real stats if I remember correctly) it may feel that 20-something % is too much, or they are too vocal, or whatever it is that some male readers may feel.I don’t pass judgment on that. That’s one of the things I was wondering about when I posted my question. I also do not assume anyone will agree with any POV I have–feminist or otherwise. That would be pure folly for anyone. But it should not stop anyone from presenting their POV. I just wish there were more mutual respect. There is so much anger, snarkiness and incivility in the comment threads by both men and women, and of course this characterizes the internet as a whole. Thanks for your reply.
“But when women write or comment, it may stand out more, especially if the positions are not liked.”
That is true on just about every single web site in my industry (outdoor sports). You want special attention for your comment, comment as a woman and you’ll get it; the guys will laser in on it as if they’ve never seen a female post a comment on a web site before.
Agree heartily with the rest of your reply!
Did you see this? http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/helen-lewis-hasteley/2011/11/comments-rape-abuse-women
I should add – comment with the same sentiment as a guy and the comment will be ignored. I’ve run that experiment countless times, always with the same result.
A snarky comment is never accused of trolling if it agrees with the values of the dominant group. And there have been many snarky feminist comments on various articles that are very anti-male.
That would certainly explain why Amanda Marcotte has gotten the leeway she has in the posts that she writes while at the same time people critical of views expressed by feminists are attacked.
Come on now. We’ve gotta have our feminists. This is my favorite site at the moment. I don’t want to see it ruined with all that man talk. As a man, I don’t find men all that interesting. Women. Now that’s a topic I’d like to get my hands on…so to speak. As soon as I saw that title, “The Good Men Project”. I just knew I was in the right place to hear from women about men. Haha….
“Have fun or go home, boys”
When I stumbled on this site, I was encouraged to find a place where I could sort out my issues by reading other men’s experiences. I do sense a feminist slant which is discouraging to me since I am not a feminist. I personally feel bombarded by often hostile points of view. Not sure where i will go from here…everyone has a right to their own opinions I guess.
It’s there, Jef, but at least it’s freely challenged and freely discussed. That’s a big step up from most “gender issues” sites which are explicitly and purposely feminist in tone, and which engage in censorship to keep it that way.
You might like to check out a blog called FeministCritics.org, which addresses such biases and blinders in a rational manner.
Women or whoever wants to control the conversation can’t have it both ways. For decades many have complained that men don’t communicate, that they only want to control everyone and everything.
Men are now expressing their own thoughts and feeling, leading others to criticize them. If men don’t speak we are just sitting back controlling. If we speak we are not doing it right. As with all double binds, it doesn’t work. Men are breaking out of this. That scares those who are the keepers of emotional communication.
Some men are saying, I’m speaking – if you don’t like it’s too bad, but I’m not shutting up. I would be the first to admit that we often stumble at communicating our emotions. But, let’s have some compassion for men. After centuries of not speaking it will take a while to master emotional communication.
We also need to realize that a man’s emotional intelligence will be different than women’s. Because it is so new for men to speak emotionally we really don’t know what masculine emotional intelligence is.
I also find that most of my comments on my blog and Facebook are women. Most are very supportive of what men are doing. Some are critical. To them I like to say, most men want to improve their emotional communication skills. They want to collaborate with women which require women to open up and trust men.
Let’s end the battle between the sexes. No one wins.
I have no problem communicating and I am a man. Most Men just want equal rights across the board for both men and women. If I want to be a father and raise the child the significant other wants to abort I should have the right to be. I should have equal rights in court for granting of child custody. These are just a couple issues that agravate me.
I don’t declare myself a feminist. I prefer to declare as a humanist. But we all seem to be hung up on assigning labels and then setting up binary debates and leave us all painted into corners of our own making.
My father loves this sort of stuff. I would like a book that i could get him for christmas related to this subject.