This is a comment by David Byron on the Comment of the Day: “If men get together for this kind of movie, it’s sleazy. If women do, it’s ‘good, clean fun’.”
“I’ve stated my criteria to oppose discrimination which is simply to oppose it always, with an exception for affirmative action under narrow circumstances….
“I think race gives a real problem because where it intersects with gender and ‘it’s OK if you are not a white male’ thing gets out of whack. I mean would you say it’s OK for black men to view porn or go see a sexy movie in a way that white men can’t?
“To take another example of sex discrimination you almost certainly support, which is gender segregation in domestic violence shelters, most people who support that discrimination against men say it is because women might be afraid of men, and in general they support many forms of ‘safe spaces’ for women that discriminate.
“But many white people are also afraid of blacks. You would not support racial segregation on that basis I bet. You would not support domestic violence shelters that excluded blacks or ‘safe spaces’ which were white-only.
“You probably wouldn’t demand that black people should cross the road when the see a white person coming in case that white person is afraid of blacks either. So I imagine your opposition to racism is not exactly on the same track with your feelings about sexism.”
Photo credit: Flickr / David Shankbone
If a woman abused me, I’d probably like a place to be where every would-be Patricia Heaton wasn’t telling me I deserved to be hit because I took out the trash wrong. But that’s an extremely rare, on-the-nose example, there are people out there who need to be specially separated from peanut butter for gods sake. If someone was traumatized by explosions, that doesn’t make fireworks evil. That being said, I’m not supporting womyn-born-womyn subway cars any time soon. NOT ONE BIT. I’m not standing in the freezing cold for an extra 45 minutes because the only available seats are… Read more »
Do women who have been through abuse by a man feel fear of a man who himself is a victim from his female partner? I’d think they’d realize that guy is also a victim and be less afraid of him. Are these women afraid of their male relatives?
Maybe setup shelters to have a single sex zone for both sexes, and a coed area?
Assuming it is a good idea to offer women, who have been victimized by men, women only shelters, so they feel safer, where should men, who faced abuse by men, and women, who faced abuse by women, turn?
One oddity here is the way that DV shelters treat male children. In many cases, a shelter that takes children has a cutoff age for male children. Any boys under that age can stay there with their mother, but above that age they cannot stay there. There must be cases out there in which a boy is sheltered as a victim, but then he has a birthday while he’s there and then has to leave because his birthday transforms him into a potential perpetrator. The day before your nth birthday you’re a survivor, but the day after you’re a threat.… Read more »
Yes it’s child abuse obviously. But I disagree that it is an oddity. It is simply a bunch of bigots being consistent in their hateful extremism. The same logic is why transsexual women are also not allowed in DV shelters, or to work in them, but eg. lesbians are even though wouldn’t the lesbians fear other women, instead of men?
Is that really a common policy? I did a quick google search and did not find any shelters with such a policy. I found once that said male children can stay at the shelter up to age 18.
There are a lot of single-sex AA meetings and single-sex group homes and halfway houses for recovering addicts and so on. There are also co-ed ones, obviously, but there can be a benefit to single-sex environments when we are talking about people who are in a very vulnerable place emotionally and physically. Tom Matlack had an article about that a couple weeks ago, where he claimed that men need single sex support groups and won’t get the same benefit if women are present. If men need domestic violence shelters then maybe the solution is to fund shelters for men, not… Read more »
Is there any basis whatsoever — beyond bigotry that is — for the sex segregation? Show me the scientific study that supports the idea that this prejudice actually helps any victims of domestic violence? To me it is obvious that if a woman is worried about men the very last thing you want to do is confirm her irrational disabling fears with an authority figure telling her men are all scum. You’re entirely wrong about the early movement too. Erin Pizzey deliberately wanted men in the shelter precisely to show the women that some men are kind and good with… Read more »
Bit curious as to how she is entirely wrong about the early movement as I don’t see her mentioning whether or not the early movement wanted men in shelters or not rather that women saw other women having a need and started shelters for them with almost no societal support. I doubt that’s entirely wrong seeing as how domestic violence against men is relatively new in awareness and support. More curious as to why for you creating an environment where women are less likely to relive their trauma and not seek help is ‘telling her men are all scum’ and… Read more »
Please provide evidence that sex segregation helps victims. To me it is obvious it hurts them more. One obvious example we discussed already being the child abuse handed out to young boys who are suddenly told they became evil monsters on their 14th birthday.
Again why for you is creating an environment where women are less likely to relive their trauma and not seek help ‘telling her men are all scum’ and ‘the demonization of men’? To me it’s obvious if a woman is bieng abused by her husband she’s likely already in a state of fear and would probably be less likely to call a shelter housing men than she would be calling a shelter housing women only. That obvious example of supposed child abuse wasn’t discussed you claimed it without providing any evidence and had no response to: “Is that really a… Read more »
To take another example of sex discrimination you almost certainly support, which is gender segregation in domestic violence shelters, most people who support that discrimination against men say it is because women might be afraid of men, and in general they support many forms of ‘safe spaces’ for women that discriminate. I’m all for this. I can totally understand the reason behind such separation. And I would also support it the other way around. So I imagine your opposition to racism is not exactly on the same track with your feelings about sexism. Probably not because the dynamic of male/female… Read more »
So do you think women should be afraid of all men? Whereas you realise that whites being afraid of blacks is racist? And on that basis you are happier with female-only spaces? Just seems like you’ve shifted the sexism. When women are afraid of men they are sexist in the same way as whites afraid of blacks. The problem is because women have so much power nobody will call them out as sexist. If someone genuinely has a phobia you don’t treat it by pandering to their irrational fears and telling them, eg. “Oh yes, it’s rational to be afraid… Read more »
So do you think women should be afraid of all men? No. But in the event that they are I can understand. What I have a problem with is not that they are afraid of all men but the ones that cast the presumption of worst faith on men and then have the nerve to say that it’s on men to dispell that presumption. And I have an even bigger problem with how this illusion is not just goes unchallenged but is sometimes actively defended while at the same time saying that other illusions are an -ism. And on that… Read more »
You’re attacking a strawman of course, with those 13s. Does that mean you have no rational disagreement? Women meet men in normal life so if any of those women are afraid of men then they are already acclimatized to them to a large extent. By eliminating the presence of any men the DV shelters induce fear, possibly where none had existed before. Nobody was suggesting your strawman scenario of overloading these women with images of men, but just to continue the normal mix of men and women that they are already entirely used to as anyone who lives in society… Read more »
“By insisting that any phobic women, and more to the point the perfectly ordinary women who have no fear of men, must go without any contact at all with men (to the point of the child abuse of rejecting teenage boys) ” I highly doubt that male on female domestic violence survivors are perfectly ordinary women much less have no fear of men. I thought that women meet men in normal life and are already acclimatized to them to a large extent so I’m unsure how are the shelters insisting the women go without any contact at all with men.… Read more »
I’ve researched shelters and I haven’t seen it be common policy for shelters to reject male children particularly after their 14th birthday as you claimed in another response.
I don’t know about the “kick them out after they turn a certain age” thing but I have seen cases where if they are already over the limit their parent is not allowed to being them in and that limit seems to be pretty low (as in less than the usual 18 for adulthood).
I’ve seen a cases of not allowing guys 16 and over unless he was abused as well however that doesn’t seem to be common policy. In the cases you’ve seen what was the limit that seemed pretty low to you and would you consider that limit to be common policy?
I’ve seen a few where it like 14 (if I recall correctly). But even then, the problem isn’t how common it is but the fact that it is happening in the first place (I’ve seen similar about the gender wage gap, it’s not how much less women make than men but the mere fact that women make less than men). If people are so worried about helping people that are being abused then why put them in the painful position where they have to choose between their under aged son or a shelter? I’ve seen a cases of not allowing… Read more »
Different views as to me it’s about how common it is and whether it’s the norm. Most likely people are worried about putting other women in the painful position of not seeking help and not getting as much help due to male presence. As for that painful position of choosing between the underage son or a shelter for me the best suited solution would be having shelters for women with male children and existing shelters placing the child in legal custody or having a male-only youth area. Unsure why you’d question if 16+ year old girls be held to the… Read more »
Unsure why you’d question if 16+ year old girls be held to the same or similar conditions or it’s a gendered matter when it’s a woman only domestic shelter and the view is male presence is considered a possible hindrance for seeking and getting help. I’m questioning it because if the problem is that a male presence is a possible hindrance then why the “if he’s been abused too….” condition? Let’s say an abused woman with a young son is trying to find shelter. I am questioning how “….if he’s been abused too…” makes a difference when considering offering the… Read more »
It likely makes a difference as it’s a woman only shelter and it’s more like they’re presuming since he’s a male his presence will be a hindrance to women seeking shelter and getting support. Different views to me it’s seems more like the boys unlike the girls are being asked for why their presence is warranted since male presence not female presence may hinder the goal of the women only shelter. The potentials may be less likely to seek a shelter with males and the ones present may be less likely to unburdening themselves of the experiences of male violence… Read more »
I see where your coming from but I think a matter of age comes in. We’re talking about boys, not men.
I think a matter of age did come in and the guys passed it. They’re not babies or toddlers whose presence generally invokes feelings of protection.
They may not be men but the boys are male presence.
Does that mean you have no rational disagreement? Women meet men in normal life so if any of those women are afraid of men then they are already acclimatized to them to a large extent. By eliminating the presence of any men the DV shelters induce fear, possibly where none had existed before. But that meeting of men in normal life happened before the trauma. An event so horrible that it can override previous thoughts, feelings, and mindsets. That’s part of the definition of trauma isn’t it? So while it is certainly possible that such fear did not exist before… Read more »
My opposition to racism is exactly on the same track with my feelings to sexism asI’d support racial segregation in the case of a violence victim shelter for blacks that have been violently victimized by whites or vice versa. In my opinion domestic violence shelters are probably best suited to be gender segregation as I doubt many women would feel safe at the shelter much less seek support out of their violent situation. The best option to me rather bemoan gender segragation of men in domestic violence shelters than increase women to reliving their trauma and decrease women seeking help… Read more »
Good point.