This is a comment by John D on the post “What Makes White, Middle Class Men Kill?“
JPM wrote:
“Unless we move to a society where people are constantly monitored and controlled by the government, really bad things like this are going to happen occasionally, just like lightning strikes.”
John D responded:
“Your analogy makes it sound unavoidable. That’s probably not true in every case. You can put up lightning rods to protect buildings and take other precautions. We can most likely also avoid a lot of this by improving the mental health of men.
“The simple fact is that despite the narrative being that women are much more prone to depression, men account for 80% of all successful suicides. These men typically go past the ‘calling for help’ suicide where they swallow a bottle of pills and then call a friend to tell them what they did and use a permanent method like shooting themselves in the head.
“Asking why so many men feel so helpless and hopeless would not only save the men who self-harm, but most likely avert some of these disasters.”
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One of the reason men are more successful at suicide is that men choose more violent ways to try and end their life. Men are much more likely to grab a firearm or some other weapon to try and take their life. Women are more likely to try with other mean such as an overdose. Both can be lethal but there is higher death rate connected with the firearm than overdose.
I only brought this fact up because I believe this is one of the reasons men have a higher rate of suicide. I believe the rate would be much lower if men didn’t choose the more violent ways to try and end their life’s . Men also are less likely to seek therapeutic means to try and help alleviate depression than a woman. Society has placed men in a social position that they believe it is not okay to cry or show emotions. If a man can’t show emotions in public there is not much incentive for them to want to seek out professional help.
Men are under constant pressure from work, home, friends and life in general. Society has changed so drastically as have the roles of what used to define a man. One of the main problems is that men/young men and boys are not given any options on how to deal with these new roles. Society has placed so much emphasize on redefining roles but little or no interest on how people are supposed to achieve these new roles.
We need to think about ways to teach people that roles have changed and its okay for things to change. Everyone needs to come together and be able to find ways to start at the youngest grades and teach more about equality and redefining roles. I believe men should be allowed to cry in public. It doesn’t make any of us less than a man.
Aaron
One of the reason men are more successful at suicide is that men choose more violent ways to try and end their life. Men are much more likely to grab a firearm or some other weapon to try and take their life. Women are more likely to try with other mean such as an overdose. Both can be lethal but there is higher death rate connected with the firearm than overdose. I only brought this fact up because I believe this is one of the reasons men have a higher rate of suicide. I believe the rate would be much lower if men didn’t choose the more violent ways to try and end their life’s
The whole “its only because men choose more violent means” bit to explain away why men commit suicide more often than women more times than I can count (not that you are doing that though). It’s meant to stop the discussion on men and suicide by just saying that men should just use less violent ways. Stopping short of a bigger question.
The big question is to ask WHY do men tend choose more violent means.
Is it because men feel that suicide is an absolute last option so they take to it with extreme efficiency moreso than women? (To me this makes more sense than the idea that women use less violent means as a “call for help”. To put it in terms of gambling women aren’t under bidding, men are overbidding.)
Is it because of the way violence is associated with masculinity? (As in being socialized to embrace violence isn’t just the embrace against others, but against one’s self as well?)
I think a lot of those men could be saved simply not turning them away when they seek help under the guise telling them to just suck it up (or “man up” if you will) or expecting them to deny their feelings.
I agree that saying that men are more successful because of more violent means is a cop out on a much larger societal problem. Studies have shown that women actually attempt suicide more often but men are much more successful in their attempts. I wonder though how many men never have it reported that they tried a suicide attempt.
Just like I previously stated men are less inclined to seek out any type of therapeutic help for depression. I will state as a social worker that worked with children’s and families gender roles are changing but it doesn’t mean families have a clue on what to do with it. I have had families tell me that men don’t cry and are tough. It is in these same families that I would remind them the what they do to their children have long lasting consequences and that men can cry.
The main reason men don’t show emotions is because society has told us that it is not acceptable. As a stay-at-home dad (by choice) I do cry and I am teaching my 3-year-old son that it is okay to express and feel anything and everything including crying. If we want society to begin to change we have to be willing to change ourselves and show others that it doesn’t matter if a man cries. Not showing emotions is unhealthy for anyone. It leads to depression, medical problems and a list of other things.
The main thing is that if we want men to be more accepting of seeking help we have to be willing to not only talk about these issues but practice it in front of our sons and daughters. I know and believe that change begins from within.
I would also say that it’s not just denying men the ability to express emotions that are not happiness, rage, and lust but denying that men can even have emotions outside of that narrow range. Varying from case to case it seems its a matter of “real men don’t cry” (a denial of expression of sadness and pain) and in others is a matter of “real men don’t get sad”.
As a part of getting rid of that “real men” bull I agree with what you say at the end. We basically have to kick that notions square in its ass by forcing people and society at large to deal with the fact that yes men do get sad and yes there are men that are in pain and then deal with the fact that we can express it and that expression (in and of itself) is not a measurement of how much of a man one is.
ht tp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/11/981112075159.htm
Basically men use suicide more as a means to end it all, women use it more as a cry for help.
I don’t think that the use of firearms by men is endemic to gender differences or a coincidence. It is because the men that commit suicide (with permanent methods) have fallen far deeper into a feeling of hopelessness and helplessness.
They do not try to use pills and then contact a friend because they either believe they are not deserving of help or they believe the help is not there.
I think this has a lot to do with men internalizing messages that only weak men ask for help. Men’s risk for suicide skyrockets after divorce. And yet, all we hear about is male privilege.
It’s time to take the rose-tinted glasses off that ramps up female oppression and male privilege and see that many things are not the power dynamic that many theorists once hypothesized (like marriage).