This is a comment by Danny on the post “What About the Womenz?“
“I think one of the biggest misconceptions about feminism is that addressing the rights of women will automatically address the issues of men. It is only half true.”
The problem is feminists themselves are putting up that illusion. Its not as feminists are saying that they don’t want to work with men, they openly advertise that they do. It becomes a misconception when people that want to work with them on men’s stuff realize that most feminists only want to work with men who pretty much start off agreeing with them and don’t challenge/question the ideology of feminism too much.
The mindset of a lot of feminists is “help women first and foremost which will either fix everything else or we’ll just get to it later”. This is how you end up with issues that affect men being twisted around to make it about women. Take child care. A lot of them don’t want to talk about how fathers are stigmatized as child molesters and thus people don’t trust them with children but if twist it into how women are stigmatized as child care givers and thus people expect them to be good at child care (to the point of thinking something is wrong with a woman that doesn’t want to care for children) and all of a sudden its a worthwhile topic.
A lot of feminists simply don’t like the idea of men being the primary focus even on topics that primaraly harm men and will simply deny men rather let us speak up out of fear that we might disagree with them.
I don’t identify as feminist or MRA but I’ll say this. There’s a lot of hatred among MRAs and I’m trying to get away from that. Feminists don’t want to hear me out unless I agree with them. As far as I’m concerned neither side is coming up smelling like roses. (And it also doesn’t help that a lot of feminists seem to want to excuse the negativity in their own movement by going on about how they aren’t “as bad as MRAs” like JK is asking about below. As if the existence of bad MRAs excuses the existence of bad feminists…)
Photo credit: Flickr / krupp
Doing a quick Google search, I find no evidence that any pro-choice groups supported The Unborn Victims of Violence Act. Can you refer me to such a group?
Of course people are free to refer to their wanted fetuses as babies, but that’s not the same as saying those fetuses should be granted personhood.
It’s a quandary for them. They generally agree with concept of punishing killers of fetuses as if they are “human” but disagree with any terminology that implies that they are human – which would counter their own argument. That’s why you hear strong pro-choice opposition to the terms used but not the penalties given. They want it both ways. In early 2004, Senator Dianne Feinstein introduced The Motherhood Protection Act, an alternative bill which sought stiffer penalties for injuring or killing a pregnant woman and allowed prosecutors to make a double, but not separate, charge — all without attempting to… Read more »
Christian womens group. As with the attitudes towards the men’s movement where feminists don’t really care to hear what men have to say, ya’ll don’t care to actually hear what men have to say about this issue. We automatically think that conservative men are Christian. June 2010 “The woman, who was three months pregnant, told Charleston police who responded to the scene that she wasn’t feeling well, and police called an ambulance, the complaint says. Staff at Women and Children’s Hospital originally found a heartbeat from the fetus, but the baby died the next day. Police charged Burdette with first-degree… Read more »
Maybe I missed something somewhere. I don’t think I said that pro-choice groups supported it. In fact they didn’t simply because they give a rats ass about the unborn. Their interest in opposing the law was that it may cause a women NOT to abort. It had nothing to do with men being behind the 8-ball. I simply pointed out where men are screwed no matter what. And the other reason pro-choice was upset, it placed a human value on the unborn which to them was the proverbial slippery slope.
That’s a bit of an oversimplification. They want the pregnant woman to be able to hire a doctor to kill the fetus since it is merely, as has often been said, a “clump of cells.” On the other hand, they want anyone that kills a fetus against the pregnant woman’s wishes to be charged and prosecuted as if s/he killed a human, not just a clump of cells, and not just a single assault against the pregnant woman. So, they actually like the outcome of the Unborn Victims Act (that the killer of the fetus can be charged seperately, just… Read more »
I agree and disagree with this post. I do think that there are some serious concerns for men, one being the all-men-who-like-kids-are-molestors mentality. It stinks. I think gender stereotypes are just as harmful to men as they are to women. The problem that many feminists have, sometimes including myself, is that the conservative men who are engaged in the war on women with respect to birth control and abortion access, often enact the bills under the guise of helping women. The vaginal ultrasound bills Or the bills that require doctors to read government mandated scripts about fetal development, are enacted… Read more »
Not Guilty: “I agree and disagree with this post. I do think that there are some serious concerns for men, one being the all-men-who-like-kids-are-molestors mentality. It stinks. I think gender stereotypes are just as harmful to men as they are to women. The problem that many feminists have, sometimes including myself, is that the conservative men who are engaged in the war on women with respect to birth control and abortion access, often enact the bills under the guise of helping women. The vaginal ultrasound bills Or the bills that require doctors to read government mandated scripts about fetal development,… Read more »
I agree and disagree with this post. I do think that there are some serious concerns for men, one being the all-men-who-like-kids-are-molestors mentality. It stinks. I think gender stereotypes are just as harmful to men as they are to women. The problem that many feminists have, sometimes including myself, is that the conservative men who are engaged in the war on women with respect to birth control and abortion access, often enact the bills under the guise of helping women. The vaginal ultrasound bills Or the bills that require doctors to read government mandated scripts about fetal development, are enacted… Read more »
Where are the large, coherent organizations that stand up for men’s rights, and speak up about how the male gender role affects men negatively? Wikipedia has a list of women’s organizations, but the list of men’s organizations is conspicuously absent. Million man march, Promise keepers and father’s rights groups are the only visable MRM’s we’ve had for many years. Have not heard much from Million Man march, Promise Keepers fizzled because it was too faith based for our society and in so far as father’s rights? Constant battle that isn’t making much headway. So I would appreciate if ya’ll, would… Read more »
Birdie-El, that’s exactly the attitude I faced in the early days when I turned 32 years of age and found out just how far-reaching the damage those women and girls did to me. Nobody wanted to hear it, very few acknowledged it, and even gynocentric feminists had their glee in minimising my pain because I was a “Priveledged White Male” Even when I wrote my article, the ONLY FREAKIN’ ARTICLE, to address girls bullying boys I still had ignorant people come in and claim I was for women’s oppression, that I should’ve supported positive female role models, and that my… Read more »
Exactly. I’ve written a post in a space that says its for all people but its pretty clear that when it comes to gender the only time you can talk about men is when they are doing something bad. The post in question was about men and body image issues. First two comments out the gate were about how “yeah it sucks for men but when it comes body image issues women still have it worse”. Submitted another post recently to that same place talking about Too Short’s “fatherly advice” and how it was damaging to boys to be taught… Read more »
ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/06/body-image-concerns-men-more-than-women
More men than women are concerned over their body image 😛 though it’s very close in number. One day people will realize both genders are very concerned without the pissing contest of who gets it worse….
My husband taught me something crucial to our marriage, which is that many men actually wish they could be noticed for their looks and be thought of as sexy. I never thought of things from that point of view, because feminism teaches women that Being Sexy is Bad (Because You Are Objectified), but it gave me something very, very important to think about. As a result, I’ve been complimenting him a lot more and telling him he’s sexy over the past 18 months. And it’s led to a much stronger bond and sex life for both of us. I think… Read more »
Oh, I forgot to mention: In my male-dominated workplaces, the guys have been a little more relaxed in discussing their fears and worries than the average mixed-gender workplace. So imagine my mild surprise (I was not shocked – just fascinated by the pervasiveness of it) when I discovered just how much the men I worked with worried about their builds, weight, abs, figures, etc. From my boss dieting to make a splash at his 25-year HS reunion to the guys I managed eating salads because they felt less-than-fit, I was surprised over and over again by how much pressure men… Read more »
Thanks for hearing me out Birdie-El. My husband taught me something crucial to our marriage, which is that many men actually wish they could be noticed for their looks and be thought of as sexy. That’s probably a matter of a the idea that men are sexy not because of how we look (like with women) but rather because of how useful we are. The whole being cut, buff, and muscular thing? Pretty much centered around the “fact” that being so indicates that such a man is strong and can do lots of physical things. Also notice how fat guys… Read more »
I’m curious to ask the MRAs on here a question – as a woman who has left the feminist movement due to all the inane rules, double standards, and general misanthropy (many modern feminists seem to have a low opinion of men and women, for opposite, but equally annoying reasons): When a person is facing gender discrimination on the job, how would you address that? I think it’s safe to say that men and women both face gender discrimination on the job, and obviously while you guys aren’t concerned with women’s standing, I assume that you’ll need to address discrimination… Read more »
The best person for the job, It doesn’t matter the gender. If you think that men have a snow balls chance in hell of being able to win a sex discrimination case. A man is hired over a women and we run the chance of having to justify it. If a women is hired over a man, no question that it was right. Affirmative action is alive and well. What would I say? If it’s discrimination, then it is what it is but men are not listened to. We can’t stop it. We have a main focus on general human… Read more »
So this is a general response to many of the comments posted here. I understand that many MRAs and men who don’t identify as such are frustrated with women who call themselves feminists, and then, for example, adhere to gender roles and expect the man to pick up the tab at every date. You have, I believe, a right to be frustrated. In fact, as a feminist, that frustrates me, too. What these women are doing is believing in feminism on a macro-level, but not on a micro- or social level. They, consciously or not, adhere to gender roles because… Read more »
First, I want to agree with you on the “do you want equality or not” piece. If feminists insist on claiming they want equality and then support, expect, or even demand inequality, that invalidates their claim. So, I’m with you on that. Obviously women’s and men’s rights aren’t mutually exclusive but feminists have historically handled them in a zero-sum way; the fewer rights men have and more rights women have the better since women are the “oppressed class” and all men enjoy “male privilege.” If you are going to call yourself a feminist, know that the term comes with 40… Read more »
Thanks for stopping by A.S. A.S. What these women are doing is believing in feminism on a macro-level, but not on a micro- or social level. I’m more of a mind to say they support breaking down the gender roles only when it suits them. They, consciously or not, adhere to gender roles because feminism still has not completely succeeded in making every woman aware that expecting certain privileges and behaving in strictly gendered ways is not equality. If you go back and read almost any foundational feminist text, it is not about gaining previously withheld rights and then behaving… Read more »
First of all, I’m very glad this conversation has been so civil and that good intentions have been assumed on all sides. Secondly, Danny and Eric M – I think you’re both misconstruing my comment that ” up until very recently power has almost exclusively been in the hands of men.” As you will note, I did not say “all men.” Of course in the US that power has been in the hands of white men, but I was trying to make a more global, non-US-centric statement specifically about gender and its relation to power. What I was getting at… Read more »
First of all, I’m very glad this conversation has been so civil and that good intentions have been assumed on all sides. And I am glad as well. Secondly, Danny and Eric M – I think you’re both misconstruing my comment that ” up until very recently power has almost exclusively been in the hands of men.” As you will note, I did not say “all men.” Correct you did not say it unfortunately it has been heavily implied by many others, others who have louder voices. Heavily implied to the point that the things I pointed out happen. I’m… Read more »
” As you will note, I did not say “all men.” “almost exclusively” means “almost all men.” “What I was getting at is that globally power has been and, to a large extent, still is almost exclusively in the hands of men, not women.” There, you said it again. Do you understand what the word “exclusively” means? “Not divided or shared with others”; “Complete; undivided.” Your comments reflect that old familiar feminist gynocentric world view. Few people have much power to speak of, gender irrelevant. A few facts to consider; more women than men are managers at companies in 2012.… Read more »
I think you are, again, intentionally twisting everything I say, Eric M.
My only response, because I don’t want to engage with someone who refuses to consider my point of view as valid even though I am doing that for you, is that when I say “power” – and when most people talk about power in terms of politics and feminism – it is not about individual or personal power, but rather power in the structural and Foucauldian sense. I suggest you read up on that.
I will chime in here that yes, that’s generally been my impression of the disconnect. There are millions of disenfranchised men in the world. Men in prison, men in economic straits, men who feel/perceive no control. And that is part of the intersection of economic oppression (which also affects women). There are though, many rich and powerful men in government and business, land owners and shareholders. More women, too, are moving into those ranks, but that doesn’t mean that the women in poverty are any more in personal power than the men. There are structures in place that I would… Read more »
Julie: “Either way, I’ve seen more conversations than I can count come to a screeching halt with this very dynamic.” Can you blame them, Julie? I, as a survivor of serious female abuse along with males, certainly don’t want to be lumped in with those men at the top. So whenever that conversation starts veering close to it, I quit the conversation and take my business elsewhere Julie: “and a focus on individual and practical problems (while vital to address) ignores systemic issues.” Really? So I guess the systematic oppression of those girls and women who bullied and hurt me… Read more »
Eagle, I was bullied by the most “important” woman in my life, my mother, growing up. It was severe. I was also bullied by a “Mean Girl” in college. It’s hard to take the high road when you’re in that situation. While I couldn’t say whether your bullying was like mine, take comfort in the fact that I do know how you feel. I am personally angered by the majority attitude in this country, whereby mothers are always love and want their children. This mentality is so pervasive that I was chewed out and mocked for asserting MY opinion to… Read more »
Can it be said that the men in power are there mostly because of gender, or because of their family, finances, etc. I am wondering if gender is the big “privilege” or if wealth is the bigger one, since so many men feel disconnected there does appear to be a divide between rich man, middle class man, lower class man, and poor as hell man. It seems strange to just say men are privileged when they dominate the top AND dominate the bottom of the ladder, if it was just the top I could see how the theory works but… Read more »
Theory is important but can be a tool of silencing (however unintentional), and a focus on individual and practical problems (while vital to address) ignores systemic issues. The problem is there seems to be a tendency to choose what is systemic and what is personal/individual based on gender. Men get painted up at child abusers. – Personal Women get painted up as child caregivers. – Systemic What the world? Sure it might be unintentional but when it gets to the point where its clear that folks are saying that what happens to men cannot be systemic then it makes perfect… Read more »
Do I think the painting of all men on airplanes or in schools as potential child molesters as systemic. Yeah, I do. I think it’s a fear based and liability based system created by bureacracies to protect themselves and it has an personal effect on individual men.
@A.S., “I think you are, again, intentionally twisting everything I say, Eric M.” Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean your view is “invalid.” That’s for you to decide. If your argument is not understandable by most people, how can you complain about it being twisted when it’s not even clear what you’re saying? You chose to use an esoteric socio-psycho-theoretical definition of “power” used by feminist academics and their students but which is not otherwise well known or accepted by the vast majority of women or men. This is a perfect example of what I have been… Read more »
What the heck!?!?! Where are all these MRM’s???? I keep hearing things that would lead me to believe that MRM’s are this big movement with many factions. I’ve been involved in the MRM for more then 25 years and heck if I know of all these MRM’s. Please tell me so I can be in contact with them?
Actually I’m glad my first comment is in moderation because I want to say things a bit differently. Hopefully whoever sees it will just delete it after seeing this one. Concerned: Some great stuff gets posted on this site – so it is a real shame that every time feminism gets discussed it loses its way so badly and often repeats stereotypes peddled by those who think feminism is some sort of plot against men. I don’t recall saying its a plot against men. I am saying that there are feminists out there that pull a bit of bait and… Read more »
Why does Danny care whether feminists listen to him or not without him agreeing to them. He is yielding the position of authority to them which they should never have. The harsh cold fact in this world is that no movement ever works for equality and only works for the welfare of in-group. Equality is just a state of equilibrium where all sides have more or less same leverage.
Oh no its not a yeilding of a position of authority. Its shaking my damn head over the bait and switch.
Why are you shaking your damn head over the bait and switch. Did you not expect it by now?? I hope you know the fable of frog and scorpion. It is their nature and they cannot change. So many feminists have posted on this site about how great is feminism and it is all about equality. But when I asked them what has it ever done for men, none of them could ever give me a straight answer. The reason is that feminism is all about women and nothing to do with equality or men. There logic is so twisted… Read more »
I expect it but at the same time I hope to be wrong. Unfortunately I’m right more often than not.
Some great stuff gets posted on this site – so it is a real shame that every time feminism gets discussed it loses its way so badly and often repeats stereotypes peddled by those who think feminism is some sort of plot against men. First of all, lumping all feminists together like this makes it sound as though “feminism” is some sort of club that admits members and has particular rules, the characterization is faintly ridiculous. There are a diversity of feminisims and feminist voices out there. A woman claiming the label feminist does not automatically speak for all women… Read more »
“First of all, lumping all feminists together like this makes it sound as though “feminism” is some sort of club that admits members and has particular rules, the characterization is faintly ridiculous.” There is a reason people ID as “feminists” and not something else. The only reason to ID as a “feminist” is if one agrees with the base ideologies, philosophies, and arguments – otherwise they would refuse to ID as feminists. “Feminists” are obviously comfortable enough in being associated with the most radical man-hating feminists that they voluntarily identify themselves with them. If they truly opposed the views of… Read more »
I disagree. Not all feminists share the same ideologies, philosophies, and arguments just like not all republicans or democrats do. Even as a democrat I know that not all republicans are women-haters though certain radical conservatives come off that way, so why must so many men continue to see feminists as a unified group when that so clearly is not true? I am a feminist. I don’t agree with all other feminists. In fact, the very origins of feminism and feminist theory have never truly been unified in anything other than a movement for women’s rights. I’d love to see… Read more »
Not what I said. Sure, they disagree on minor details just like a married couple does. But, what I was “BASE (core) ideologies, philosophies, and arguments”, which is factual. Otherwise they wouldn’t all call themselves “feminists.” Otherwise they would call themselves an MRA, humanist, equalist or something else. “why must so many men continue to see feminists as a unified group when that so clearly is not true” Because they act as one group in anti-male ideologies, philosophies, and arguments. There is no point choosing a group to belong to if one does not accept its base ideologies, philosophies, and… Read more »
The base ideology of feminism is women’s rights (because they’re still not equal), NOT man-hating. Arguing differently just exposes ignorance of the movement.
I grant you that there are anti-male feminists (though they don’t make up the majority), but the “anti-male” aspect is sexism, not a central tenet of feminism. Just like men, women can be sexist. I’m not saying that’s right, I just think it’s important to realize that sexism occurs in all genders and that feminism does not inherently imply sexism.
The mainstream feminist influences on our legislature and in popular culture are anti-male, are sexist against men and boys.
The tired trope of “many kinds of feminism” is a weak elision away from addressing the bigotry inherent in mainstream feminism.
The base ideology is marxist class warfare applied to gender. The anti-male aspect of feminism, is central to that -women appear as the always good proletariat, and men are typecast as the bad and privileged bourgeois.
It may appear from the inside of the ideology that you are vastly different groups, but in reality feminists are all in the same group with the same underlying ideology and the differences are minor.
Feminism is also multi-layered, for example most feminists do not even know that their movement is marxist at its core.
Along with Egohan’s very accurate comment, feminism is not an equality movement although they like to use that word. It is a women’s advancement/empowerment movement, which has zero concern for men’s rights or concerns, and certainly no concern for equality. That is why, no matter how much preference and superiority women have in a given area, they “argue” that women are “not equal”, just as you have done here. The reason they can all feel comfortable in calling themselves feminists is because they have the same world-view (as Egohan explained). Anyone who joins an organization/group that (admittedly) includes sexism, discrimination,… Read more »
If “arguing differently just exposes ignorance of the movement” then why are so many specific examples of misandry evident across western culture as a whole?
I gave up keeping records of misandry, not just as exhibited by radical femenists, but in the media and even in the interactions of friends and people generally.
I threw my research into the recycling bin because there is so much negativity towards males it seemed futile to attempt to keep track of it.
My point is that this all pervading attitude came from somewhere, it didn’t create itself.
Why do women who don’t believe in the feminist movements ideologies, why do they continue to identify themselves as feminists in any way. Why do all these bleeding hearts that claim they was to level the playing field continue to label themselves as any kind of feminist. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck …. The truth is, they are feminists and really not interested in doing anything for men. Ya’ll burned your braws years ago, how about stepping up and burn your “I’m a feminist” card?
Is there a website that academic feminists hangout? I’ve been trying to find an egalitarian feminist hangout, and one that will discuss both males n females as well. The most common feminist I seem to find is focused on women’s issues with little discussed of mens, and things like rape are discussed as women’s issues instead of human issues. Seems to be a lot of victim mentality which i feel undermines the discussion, it gets to the point it minimizes rape against men for instance and really confuses me on their intentions since they profess to be all about equality.… Read more »
Unfortunately, I’m not aware of a particularly good academic feminist blog that deals with both men’s and women’s issues. Discussions of the two together, at least on the internet, is sadly wanting. I’m in the liberal feminist mecca of grad school, so I find that most of my discussions of feminism happen in real life in classrooms, at bars, with friends, with strangers, etc. The writers I mentioned are Judith Butler (who’s pretty philosophical and most famous for her work on gender performativity), Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick (who generally writes about men), Julia Kristeva (who identifies several types of feminism), and… Read more »
Egalitarian doctrines tend to maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status All you who claim to be this, how can you call yourselves a feminist in any way shape or form. It’s BS, you so called “egalitarians” on here are in my opinion, feminists.
You won’t find an egalitarian feminist site in that having “feminism” as part of it means that it’s not egalitarian. At least that’s what the definition says. I wonder if the so called egalitarian movement is no more than a Trojan horse?
and though most discussions of feminism on the GMP have had activist rather than academic leanings, where’s Butler, Sedgwick, Kristeva, or Rubin? Feminism is so much more than than this site, and, more frequently, its commentators, acknowledge.
instead of naming dropping in an attempt to silence, why didnt you instead use their work to add to the discussion on this thread.
A quote from Betty Friedan, founder of the National Organization for Women, and considered one of the founders of the feminist movement. “Womens’ resentment was being manipulated into an orgy of sex hatred that would vitiate the power they now had to change the conditions they resented. I’m not sure what motivates those who viciously promulgate, or manipulate, man hate in the women’s movement. Some of the disruptors seemed to come from extremist groups, some seemed to be using the women’s movement to proselytize lesbianism, others seemed to be articulating the legitimate and long-buried rage of women into a rhetoric… Read more »
Even prominent, well known feminists disagree with the man-hate rhetoric. There are many feminists (indeed most I know) that disagree with the extremist ideologies of some members. But if you don’t spend much time reading feminist literature; you won’t be exposed to it because the extremists (in other words, the loudest and most sensational) get all the attention. The problem is that the man hate rhetoric isn’t so much man hate as man disregard. Sure you won’t see too many feminists say they want all men killed but its not too hard to find some that will say that denial… Read more »
**”The problem is that the man hate rhetoric isn’t so much man hate as man disregard. There’s no shortage of feminists that actually do think male privilege washes away the harms that men suffer (or at least makes them a lower priority than what happens to women). You can easily find ones that support the idea that female against male sexism does not exist. And I know I’ve been to a community where its apparently okay to say that all men are rapists. So while the overtly extreme ways aren’t very common the people that did used to spew managed… Read more »
“Extreme ideologies need to be tempered, and that’s more easily done from the inside.”
As long as there is a desire to “temper” extreme ideologies, they will persist because a desire to temper them means that they aren’t unacceptable, just not ideal. Tolerating misandry, in essence, endorses it. If you want to rebrand feminism, exorcise/rip-out any and all vestiges of persons who promote misandry.
You misinterpret what I mean by “tempering ideologies”.
Yelling across the room at some one does nothing but harden resolve. The Socratic method works better to permanently change ideologies.
I don’t believe in tempering hate, whether it be misogny or misandry, racism, whatever. I believe it must be rejected. Period. No excuses.
To temper it is to not absolutely reject it. Not the way I roll.
You and I are using different definitions of “temper”. Temper verb (used with object) 1. to moderate or mitigate: to temper justice with mercy. 2. to soften or tone down. 3. to bring to a proper or desirable state by blending or admixture. . I believe you are using definition #1 or #2, while I am using definition #3. “Tempering”, the way I’m using it, means to change by a slow additive process, hence my reference to the Socratic method. Telling someone to “quit hatin’ cause it’s wrong” does nothing to bring about permanent change in attitude. Asking someone to… Read more »
“Asking someone to explain why they feel that way, offering counter examples, and forcing them to question their own beliefs is the most effective way to get people to rethink, and permanently change, their positions.” Agreed. And that can be done from the outside. Voluntarily joining a group where hated is tolerated and even sponsored indicates some level of agreement/concurrence to those within the group because by one’s presence, s/helends support to their cause, and indicates agreement/concurrence to those outside the group – especially those who are their targets. Perhaps you can imagine how difficult it would be for that… Read more »
I would like to write an article about Betty Friedan. I think she has some ideas that could unite MRA’s and Feminists. The fact of the matter is that Betty Friedan is marginalized by the dominant discourse. She is even called an anti-feminist. When men complain that extremist feminists are in the mainstream what they mean isn’t that feminism is a monolith what they mean is that feminists who are not extreme are not given the priority that they should and that criticism of extremist feminists is non-existent at least on the internet. You wont find any feminist sites on… Read more »
““Feminists” are obviously comfortable enough in being associated with the most radical man-hating feminists that they voluntarily identify themselves with them. If they truly opposed the views of other feminists they would not belong to the group.”
That is certainly not true. Feminism is a big thing; it has “waves,” for example, which differ in their various viewpoints. You are the one identifying any feminist with those you perceive as man- hating. No one else is doing that for you.
Feminism has one name. People join a movement because they identify with, agree with, and support its core philosophies, tenets, policies, and people within the movement – otherwise they would stay out. If one does not support the movement they would not be a part of it. If the movement did not tolerate elements of misandry, such could not exist in feminism but it does. It’s possible to steer clear of being tainted by, being associated with any elements of misandry by staying out of the movement.
“It’s possible to steer clear of being tainted by, being associated with any elements of misandry by staying out of the movement.”
Does this disassociation also apply to Conservatism? Should Fiscal Conservatives steer clear of being tainted by being associated with any elements of the misogyny of Social Conservatives by staying out of the Conservative movement?
“Birds of a feather flock together. . .” If a person is exclusively fiscally conservative (but not socially conservative – and believe that there is misogyny permitted within it, and they abhor that), why would they get involved in the conservative movement when it is largely about social issues, and they disagree on core social issues and policies of the movement? So, in answer, yes, if one disagreed with many of the Conservative movement’s core ideologies, they would logically steer clear of it. Out of all the ideologies and movements, people specifically select the one(s) that they feel represents their… Read more »
“Secondly, putting “feminism” up against MRA and saying ” neither side is coming up smelling like roses” is a bit like saying “well there are those who feel the end of segregation was really hard on white folk and those who fought for black civil rights. I can see both sides.” To pretend these “sides” are on the same footing when one is about progress and recognising structural oppression of minority and disadvantaged groups with the aim of advocating for equality, while the other is reactionary, denies structural oppression even exists for minority and disadvantaged groups, and instead claims that… Read more »
” by those who think feminism is some sort of plot against men.”
The feminists are the ones who think there is a worldwide plot against women called “partiarchy”.
Some great stuff gets posted on this site – so it is a real shame that every time feminism gets discussed it loses its way so badly and often repeats stereotypes peddled by those who think feminism is some sort of plot against men. First of all, lumping all feminists together like this makes it sound as though “feminism” is some sort of club that admits members and has particular rules, the characterization is faintly ridiculous. There are a diversity of feminisims and feminist voices out there. A woman claiming the label feminist does not automatically speak for all women… Read more »
Tip for feminists: If you find that men who favor equality still disagree with you, then I’d suggest using the opportunity to take a deep breath and listen to them. You never know, you might learn something.
First of all, lumping all feminists together like this makes it sound as though “feminism” is some sort of club that admits members and has particular rules, the characterization is faintly ridiculous. There are a diversity of feminisims and feminist voices out there. A woman claiming the label feminist does not automatically speak for all women who also identify as feminists. You’re right, not all feminists are the same, and at the same time I heard a quote the other day that answers this statement perfectly: “How many times a day does this have to happen before we start to… Read more »
That’s rife with confirmation bias. The feminists (who identify themselves as such) have culminated in negative experiences for you. But you don’t know how many feminists you meet everyday that do not identify themselves to you.
You can’t assume that every woman that treats you like crap is a feminist rather than just a nasty tempered person. And you can’t assume that any woman who is nice to you is not a feminist solely on the basis that she is nice to you.
@TheUglyGirl I’m not talking about “every woman that treats you like crap” I specifically said “feminist” and I am specifically referring to “feminists” and people who openly identify as “feminists.” I’m also not saying that they have treated me poorly; on a personal level, as a human being, I’ve never had a feminist treat me like crap, I’m talking from an ideological level or in attempting to create a working relationship. The experience I’m talking about is when I am actively working with feminists or when I have attempted to engage with feminist organisations and communities. The funny thing is… Read more »
Thanks for the clarification.
I wish I could tear apart your narrative piece by piece and tell you all the ways that you’re wrong…. but I can’t. I’ve witnessed these things as well.
I don’t know what its like to be a man facing down a group of feminists; but as someone who often openly disagrees with the rhetoric, I find that if I stand my ground, they will eventually listen to me. Maybe that’s because I have a vagina and so they feel I deserve to have a voice.
It is refreshing to hear that you are actively attempting to make these changes from within the community itself and I commend you on the fact that you are willing to accept the criticism to a movement that you believe in and that you believe (and I will agree with you) has the best intentions at heart. I know that sort of experience isn’t easy; I work with a lot of fraternities where alcoholism and violent sexism are systemic problems that many, many people are working eliminate. I have to regularly deal with criticism being lobbied at fraternities as a… Read more »
I’m sure you, as with many in here, have never been active with MRM but have plenty to say about them. We LOVE women, all shapes and sizes. We HATE “feminism” and it’s so called movement. We hate what it’s done to men and fathers. If ya’ll knew anything about MRM’s you would know that we attack issues such as child custody, a court system that’s more interested in drop kicking men into jail then helping men, male abuse. VAWA hasn’t changed in years yet men are abused but who cares? Because women are abused more, screw the men, who… Read more »
First you start with “you”- meaning ME personally- and then proceed to lump me in with “ya’ll”… meaning “all those feminist who don’t give a shit”. I’ve had plenty of loud, adamant disagreements with those “ya’ll”s your lumping me in with. **“VAWA hasn’t changed in years yet men are abused but who cares? Because women are abused more, screw the men, who cares?”** I care! My mother not only abused her children, but my father as well. It wasn’t even a matter of money; he made all the cash and could have walked away, but doing so meant he would… Read more »
I have to LOL when I read your response that I was lumping you personally into what I say. I work in a residential facility with 38 adolescents. There are occasions that I have to address the entire community because of their overall behavior. Of course when someone is addressing a group, some may not be part of the issue. We have an old saying, “if it doesn’t apply, let it fly” If what I was saying doesn’t apply to you specifically, then why respond?
That being said, I very much appreciate your view.
“Secondly, putting “feminism” up against MRA and saying ” neither side is coming up smelling like roses” is a bit like saying “well there are those who feel the end of segregation was really hard on white folk and those who fought for black civil rights. I can see both sides.” To pretend these “sides” are on the same footing when one is about progress and recognising structural oppression of minority and disadvantaged groups with the aim of advocating for equality, while the other is reactionary, denies structural oppression even exists for minority and disadvantaged groups, and instead claims that… Read more »
Amen to this!
It’s a good point. Many feminists welcome men’s participation… in working on women’s issues.
That’s really not the same thing as working on equality, much less addressing men’s own issues. And that distinction is often overlooked.
I won’t believe true equality has arrived until women can choose to allow fathers primary custody without being judged by other women.
Look, I don’t want to seem like I’m jumping on you, because I agree with what you’re saying here, but the fact you used the word “allow” sort of underlines the problem.