This comment is from commenter Transhuman on the post There Is No Gender War.
I don’t know if I’m sleep-deprived or I have had a genuine epiphany.
Perhaps if men realised that Feminism is simply not relevant to them and moved on to solving their problems. Feminism doesn’t offer me anything, and I understand that it should not, and neither should I expect it to. It does a fine job of looking after the women in my life so I need to get together with some men and we need to sort out what we think men need. Then make it happen.
An example:
I do not go to my local bakery and harangue the baker when his store has no spare parts for my car. He’s a baker, not an auto mechanic.
—
photo by uberzombie / flickr
Precisely correct Eagle. Eagle writes: “Yes, Nick, it has. Certain parts of it love to tout how solving women’s problems would solve men’s problems. About how it’s all about equality.” Marcotte had an article in June or so of last year stating specifically that men’s issues would be solved with MORE feminism, because feminists fight for equality for BOTH genders. Those at the top of political feminist orgs have been saying they fight for equality for the past 30 years while actively fighting against recognition of male victims of violence, and other mens issues. Look at the harrassing by feminists… Read more »
I think that this issue may arise from certain expectations. Most of the feminists that I know support a lot of men’s issues, as well as ones that relate to women. There are a lot of feminist issues that overlap with men’s causes (rape, for example, can happen to both genders) and feminist issues that could have a positive impact on men’s issues (for example, legitimizing home work and care would make it more socially possible for men to be active parents, because it would no longer be considered ‘demeaning’). But saying that feminists support men’s issues, or that feminism… Read more »
Wylee: “But saying that feminists support men’s issues, or that feminism can help ease the burden of some men’s issues is not the same as saying that feminism will ‘cure’ the issues.” Then maybe someone should tell these feminists that because, day in and day out, we always hear how feminism is the movement for equality and equal rights between the sexes. How if we don’t agree with it, we’re dubbed anti-feminist and against equality. At worst, women haters and wife beaters. Not to mention how certain strands seem to have this obsession with categorizing everything as a feminist issue,… Read more »
I have literally never heard anyone say that if you don’t self-identify as a feminist, that that means that you beat women. I think that you may be stretching things a bit too far. And i don’t understand your viewpoint. One sentence you’re saying that you don’t think that feminism supports cross-gendered issues, and the next you say that they champion causes that affect the whole world. Which is it? Feminism brought the woman’s POV on certain issues (such as rape) to the public eye and that exposure can, potentially, help all people with those issues. There were a lot… Read more »
I have literally never heard anyone say that if you don’t self-identify as a feminist, that that means that you beat women. I’ve never heard that “beat women” part either. But have heard “you’re a bigot”, “you support the rape and beating of women”, “you’re against equality”, “you hate women”, “you don’t respect women”, and in a (hopefull) joking manner from a comdian “you might as well kill yourself”. I’m not convined what Eagle said that much of a stretch. It’s not a shaming tactic to encourage people to champion and work towards their own causes. No its not shaming.… Read more »
Amanda Marcotte, a feminist that generalized all MRAs as wanting “the right to rape and beat women”,
Actually that’s not what Marcotte said that bit about MRAs was from another feminist site. Marcotte stated here that PUAs are, “embittered jerks that are mad because they aren’t getting as much pussy as they think they deserve”.
I’ve never heard that “beat women” part either. But have heard “you’re a bigot” I mean… I guess it just depends on the context. Sometimes, people actually are bigots. Sometimes they’re called that unfairly. I know that discussions of feminism definitely do bring out the bigots, particularly on the internet. I also know that, as is the case with any large group, you’re always going to have members that go overboard. I’ve seen that happen, too. Perhaps our experiences are just different, but most of the feminists that I talk to are actually very reasonable about supporting men’s issues. But… Read more »
I’ve seen that happen, too. Perhaps our experiences are just different, but most of the feminists that I talk to are actually very reasonable about supporting men’s issues. Lucky you. I’m just finding them now. I don’t recall anything in this article, or in any of the comments (particularly mine) that said that people who champion abuse awareness of men also have to be activists for the female viewpoint. I didn’t mean to imply such (which is why I put in the “can”). You can see my other comment, but i do not particularly agree with her. I hate that… Read more »
The first thing that I want to add (I really could do a whole article on the topic) is that I think what is missing from a lot of the gender discussions is tact. Tact. The issues that gender discussions center around are, almost by definition, very emotional and triggering and very deeply, deeply ingrained into people’s personalities. Rejecting a view point very much feels like a personal rejection because the viewpoints are so personal in nature. This comes through loud and clear in your post. I’m sorry that you felt rejected by these people. Unfortunately, most people lack tact.… Read more »
If you could do and article on it, I’m quite sure we’d love to see it! Please contact me if you are interested, [email protected]
Agreed. Everyone feels like compassion is in pretty short supply, so they’re literally fighting for attention and sympathy. While that does happen I also think that there is another belief of, “this group of people deserve validation and sympathy but this one doesn’t” based on nothing more than what groups you’re talking about. For example people who think that female victims of violence should be helped but male victims shouldn’t. Maybe its how certain groups have intersected in the past there is a belief that if you show compassion and sympathy for one group that inherenty means you don’t care… Read more »
Okay Wylee my reply got a bit long do you have an email address I can send you those links to?
(if you don’t want it out in the open could you contact me instead at:
dannybois-dot-corner-at-gmail-dot-com?)
Here you go: http://www.womanist-musings.com/2011/01/who-am-i-you-ask-names-danny-and-im.html And while Renee herself doesn’t ID as feminist I know that a good portion of her readership does and I’ve learned that the hard way. I messed around and did another post talking about how teaching boys a destructive sexuality that includes being forceful with girls harms boys too is a false equivalency based on an attempt to say that boys are harmed just as much by it as girls (http://www.womanist-musings.com/2012/02/we-are-still-heading-for-self.html). And as much as people want to go on about “derailing”, “trolling”, and “threadjacking” its clear to me that even when the focus is on… Read more »
Thank-you for the article on being an overweight male. I too get the sense that quite a few people feel it’s worse as an overweight female vs a male although I think both can be quite bad. I see the same kinds of insecurity, I don’t like my photo taken, I don’t like going shirtless at the beach/etc, I feel quite insecure in public especially around younger people who generally are much thinner. It’s annoying as hell though to hear n see the derailing where womengetitworse, I think the only reason people assume that to be true is because men… Read more »
No problem Archy. I would personally like to get away from the “who has it worse” thing to (and to Renee’s credit she wasn’t the one that brought that shit up and did try to diffuse it).
Wylee writes: “I have literally never heard anyone say that if you don’t self-identify as a feminist, that that means that you beat women.” Firstly Eagle said “worst case”. This may be rare, but it does happen on feminist boards. What IS very common is that if you make it clear that you do not believe in or support (or oppose) feminism, it is tossed around that you are anti-equality. Not only do a great deal of feminists posting on blogs believe that feminism = equality, but they believe that it is the one and only true way to get… Read more »
Not to, you know, sound like a broken record…but the same could be said of going to MRM sites. In general (not just with regards to feminism or the MRM), I think people are quick to jump to the conclusion that someone is attacking them when they don’t agree 100% with what they’re saying…or when they agree but bring up a different aspect of the issue they’re discussing. This is especially problematic via the internet where we don’t have tone of voice and body language to help explain someone’s intended meaning. Plus, we have the anonymity to call people names… Read more »
The difference is that when MRAs sink to personalising and ad hominem attacks other MRAs actually call them out on it and pull them back in line, in other words there is some attempt at restraint. I have observed this on more than one occassion and I have repeatedly advised MRAs to avoid emotionalising / personalising as it is self – defeating and counter productive. I am not saying that this attempt to counteract personal insults, etc does not happen on femenist sites, but I’ve never come across it. Perhaps someone could give me some examples. Yes, it’s me again.… Read more »
Funny, cuz I do the same thing to feminists. Actually I do the same thing to MRAs too…I tend to call out bigotry wherever I see it. I know plenty of other people, feminists, MRAs, neither…who do this too.
Heather, By the fact that you are posting on a sight for men’s stories, I would say you’re somewhat of a statistical outlier. When I go onto sights like jezebel, ampersand, feministing or other feminist sights, I never see posters correcting hateful anti-male commenters. NEVER In fact, I don’t remember what article it was on, but a commenter here on tgmp posted a link from one of the heavy-hitter feminist web-pages that was discussing domestic violence (or maybe the topic was MRAs). A poster mentioned the dearth of services for male DV victims, and the lack of feminist awareness of… Read more »
What IS very common is that if you make it clear that you do not believe in or support (or oppose) feminism, it is tossed around that you are anti-equality. I think that the problem here is that ‘feminism’ is a very broad umbrella. When you say “I don’t believe in feminism”, you may have in your mind a few, specific items that you disagree with. Someone else may have in mind a few, more general items like “the right to vote” or “the right to an education.” When you make such broad statements, it does seem to indicate that… Read more »
Screw you. 😉 (Kidding).
Sorry I couldn’t resist. I totally agree with what you’re saying here.
Wylee, You assume and put the emphasis on the poster as in they are not following rules of etiquitte, rather than accepting our stories that there are many sites that are VERY radically anti-male. Please explain how things could be the fault of the poster for disagreeing with: http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have Feminists who supposedly decry equality demeaning and dehumanizing male victims of dv. *this* is the kind of attitude that we face. The simple fact that a lot of these echo-chambers seem to view that men are going to get what they deserve because it’s time for pay-back for the mothers and… Read more »
Eagle34 responded, but I think the post may have been nicked due to some rough language. I do want to reply, though. “Then you haven’t read the likes of Amanda Marcotte or Hugo Schwartzer who have published articles here” As I’ve stated before on this site, there are many different types of feminism and many points of contention, even among people who all self-identify as ‘feminists’. I’ll be the first to say that I really do not like Amanda Marcotte. I think that her arguments are usually very flimsy and are typically more interested in having a strong point than… Read more »
What’s needed is to recognize that feminism is simply Advocacy for Women, period. There’s nothing wrong with that; there are advocacy groups for all sorts of causes. Nobody complains that the NAACP isn’t doing enough for Jewish Americans, for example, or that the SPCA isn’t promoting healthcare reform. They’re separate issues.
Feminism has relinquished its claim to being about ‘equality for all.’ It’s a movement to look out for women’s interests, period… as indicated by its very name. That’s fine; just stop pretending it will show equal concern for men’s interests when reality has proven otherwise.
just stop pretending it will show equal concern for men’s interests when reality has proven otherwise. Has feminism ever really made that claim? There is a fundamental language problem here, which I think Transhuman’s comment speaks to. I don’t think the claim has ever been that feminism’s goal was to show “equal concern” for men’s and women’s interests. I believe the goal of feminism has been and remains “equality” but the approach is decidedly one-sided. That is, in pursuing equality they are focused on eliminating what they see as the systemic disadvantages to women in our culture. Sometimes feminists, like… Read more »
Why should we retroactively expect feminists to know, for example, that the rates of domestic violence are quite close between men and women, particularly when every narrative in the culture paints it as almost exclusively a man-on-woman thing? Because if they look in their own history they will see that there are folks who operated (or are still operating) under that same label who contributed to the very cultural narrative. And it doesn’t help that some of those folks while playing that narrative retroactively hold today’s men responsible for the actions of past men, all because we share gender. How… Read more »
Nick, My understanding is that radical feminists in the DV industry aren’t simply ignorant, but willfully spread deceitful lies and even use censorship to promote the idea that DV is not gender symmetrical. Male victims of female intimate partner violence are *banned* from speaking at VAWA reathorization hearings. The famous researchers Gelles and Strauss (who were once feminist darlings and famously estimated that one woman is beaten every 17 seconds in the USA) are also *banned* from VAWA reauthorization hearings. The reason is that all of their research for the last 30 years showed that DV was gender symmetrical and… Read more »
Nick, Mostly: “Has feminism ever really made that claim?” Yes, Nick, it has. Certain parts of it love to tout how solving women’s problems would solve men’s problems. About how it’s all about equality. Nick, Mostly: “Why should we retroactively expect feminists to know, for example, that the rates of domestic violence are quite close between men and women, particularly when every narrative in the culture paints it as almost exclusively a man-on-woman thing?” Maybe if these feminists were about equality, they would be fighting against this narrative and actively looking for and supporting stats like the CDC report in… Read more »
I feel this post is valid. I’m quite tired of reading incredibly negative comments continuously bashing feminism, even when the original post has nothing to do with feminism or any of its ideals! What I take from this post, is instead of finding common ground by disliking something (such as “feminism”), maybe find common ground on something positive that can go to better the issues that matter to you.
Tell the baker to stop lobbying for laws against the automotive repair industry.
You nailed it, Patrick!
Or help the auto-motive repair industry lobby for itself, and against the lobbying of the baker that harms the auto-motive industry.
Which laws would those be?
They have been discussed here a lot, but in case you missed them: – VAWA – Debtors’ prison laws for fathers who fall behind in CS payments but not for mothers who intefere with visitation -Legal tolerance for MGM but legal prohibtion of FGM – Rape laws that recognize only female victims and immunize female rapists by not characterizing their actions as rape. -DV laws that presume the man is the perpetrator when it is unclear which partner is the perpetrator (“Predominant Aggressor” laws) – Laws that require a husband to get approval from his wife for a vasectomy where… Read more »
Can you find a cite for this? Using LexisNexis I was unable to locate any such laws for any state in the US, and for other countries I was only able to find laws that prohibit vasectomies outright (but they also prohibited tubal ligations as well). Perhaps my search wasn’t comprehensive enough?
Yes Nick, my understanding is that there may not be laws on the books, but some doctors choose to require that their patients sign forms and include a spousal form. That would create a barrier to access, but there isn’t, so far as I can tell an actual law.
I did note that it’s “some” doctors.
Well then the baker needs to quit advertising that they are THE PLACE to go for car parts and THE PLACE to go for automotive work. The baker has no reason to get mad when people some in looking for automotive assistance when the banker’s shop has ads, photos, and other things related to cars in the windows and on the shelves. Let’s see. The baker claims that people that need automotive help should come to the baker’s shop. People come to the baker’s shop looking for car help and the baker replies, “We don’t do that stuff here!”. Is… Read more »
Maybe the baker and the auto guy ought to consider a business where the auto guy fixes cars and the baker has a cafe for folks to wait at and have a snack while their car is being fixed. That would be cool.
That would be ideal.
But to continue the example you have a baker’s shop and an automotive shop both already claiming that they offer both but when a customer goes to one expecting to find both they are turned away because “they shouldn’t be expected to do that”.
It would be great if they both did come together and open a joint shop but that’s going to be a hard go as long as both continue to act like they (and only) already offer both baked goods and car stuff.
Well in my example, the baker, when asked about changing oil, would say, I can’t help you directly but let me take you to my friend the auto guy and vice versa. Why wouldn’t they collaborate (I know I know), but that’s how Groovy Lube and Il Tarrazza work here in Austin!
Nice.
Or we could make a fully functional car out of doughnuts that runs on biofuel.
(I’m gluten-deprived, and no I’ve no idea who is the car and who is the doughnut).
I don’t know anymore either. But I”m hungry now. 😉
Baker is feminism, car shop is men’s activism I think. Some of the feminists/bakers tell men that feminism = egalitarianism and they will help champion men’s rights but others only want to handle women’s rights and bake cakes and dealing with cooking oil, not motor oil. 😛
Feminism is too often cries for equal treatment under the guise of wanting special treatment. I’m for fairness for all, so I do not call myself a feminist. In fact, a woman recently tried to get me fired from a paper that runs my syndicated advice column (which is science- rather than ideology-based) on the grounds that I am “anti-feminist.”
If feminists were truly for fair treatment for all, they would speak out when men’s rights are violated, as I do.
Quite right Amy. In the many forays onto feminist boards I have made, the prevailing concept is that women’s issues are everybody’s business, but men’s issues certainly aren’t THEIR business. I remember a while back somebody posted a link on tgmp from a jezebel thread discussing male domestic violence victims. One poster said something (roughly analogous to) “eff men, let them build their own shelters like we did” which was two posts above a different poster who said: “feminism absolutely is about equality, feminists care about all victims”. I thought it was interesting that the 2nd poster was willing to… Read more »
But bakers don’t go around saying they can fix cars. That’s the key difference with feminism, there are plenty that will say they are egalitarian and care about male issues whilst others are simply…bakers.
At the risk of starting an argument, the name should have changed years and years ago when it was clear that helping women would and could also help men. It’s moot now, since the name is entrenched. Too bad.
@Julie, my point is Feminism doesn’t help men. In some cases it actively, whether intentionally or not, harms men. Thus, to my mind, Feminism offers men nothing. Time for us men to leave Feminism to the women and work on something for ourselves.
Yes, in the case above the baker has been advertising it is a place to go for auto-maintenance but we no that is not the case. Time to accept the reality, rather than entertain the dogma, and move on.
‘Know’ not ‘no’
Egalitarianism? The new super car shop, eat nice donuts and bread whilst your car gets repaired! 😛
Fine by me.
Damn… that sounds good.
Its worse than what’s happened to the name. The name could change tomorrow but as long as the damaging ideas are there the effect will still be the same.
Feminism is exactly what the name says. No more, no less.
Besides, names are not important, content is.
This post doesn’t offer anything by way of solution, other than perpetuating a discourse that “something, somewhere isn’t quite right” and that it’s all our fault. Nonsense.