This comment was by Transhuman on the post Is Creep-Shaming Real?
Slut and Creep are equivalent in the following ways:
1) Both are a perjorative based upon behaviour – sluts have sex with “too many” partners, based upon the subjective view of the person using the term. Creeps make advances to women who do not welcome the advance, their “creepiness” is based upon the subjective view of the person using the term
2) Both terms are a slight upon the target’s reputation and attribute characteristics associated with the term with the target even if these attributes are not apparent. Sluts might be considered to also be: less intelligent, suffering STI’s, have poor hygiene to name a few. Creeps also have additional attributes associated with them; sexual deviancy, psychotic tendencies, physical weakness to name some. These additional assumptions make the named person less desirable as company, friends or romantic interests.
3) Neither term has an opposite that the target can use to demonstrate the falseness of the attribution to them. Once assigned it is an indefensible label.
I think men should reclaim Creep, after all if being a Slut is something to be proud of then Creep can be lionised as well.
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photo: whatleydude / flickr
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Not sure how this would work. Being called a slut can actually be seen as a good trait for some people (if they think you’re easy at least:P) but being called a creep is universally seen as negative, never seen a single positive aspect for that label nor anyone wanting to be that yet I’ve seen plenty who see slut as positive at times. Being known as promiscuous, etc, is negative to some, ok or “who cares” to others but being known as a creep has pretty much everyone seeing you negatively. In highly generalized simple terms, a slut can still get laid/etc due to some people being ok with it but who wants to be with a creep?
I don’t know many women who want to be known as sluts. Most women I know don’t like that term when it is used non-ironically. A slut may be able to get laid, but will she be loved?
I don’t like either word personally.
Known one or two that have, might have turned them on though. I think more probably just don’t give a F if someone calls them a slut. I don’t like either word but I just don’t see any good used for creep whilst I can see those who embrace slut. I don’t recall anyone I know using creep as a joke even, seems pretty unique and has a lot of power. The younger females I know throw slut around like it’s candy, both as a joke and as a serious insult, it leaves me partially confused and partially impressed to take back the word.
A girl can be a creep too. Look at Nicki Minaj’s character in Lonely Island’s “The Creep” for an exaggerated version. Usually, when a girl is ‘creepy’ though, she’s more likely to be called a ‘stalker’ or something along those lines, or be ridiculed for her appearance, awkward behavior, or sexual behavior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPZmPaHme0
It’s sort of a humorous reclaiming of the word in itself, actually.
@Aya ” or be ridiculed for her appearance, awkward behavior, or sexual behavior. ”
Um, Clarify for me- Are you under the impression that the only time a woman calls a man a creep is because he -knowingly- violates some boundary of hers? Because I’ve seen guys called “creeps” solely for having a lazy eye or a involuntary muscle tic.
No, 8ball. I didn’t say that. Just putting out a video addressing the subject. Yeah, there are absolutely unfair uses of the word ‘creep.’ It’s used too easily and shortchanges the good men who are labeled as such. I’ll admit to using the word myself, but it’s always been in the context of guys who are married, much older, or invading my boundaries after I’ve made it clear that I’m not interested–or in a situation where they know that I can’t be mean to them in fear of getting in trouble (for example, working retail or in a restaurant, where part of the job is to be nice to everyone, and the money can depend on the ability to flirt).
ok, that video was both funny and a little twisted. I liked it. thanks for sharing.
Agree
If a woman can associate herself with other woman who share in the act and attract quality men at the same time, being a slut isn’t all that bad.
I see Transhuman’s point here. People have managed to transform some slurs into words with some empowerment behind them. (My colleague hired for his graduate degree in Queer Studies, for example. No, that’s not a nickname for that degree program, that’s the official name.) I bet fifty years ago no one ever thought you could make millions of dollars singing songs with the n-word in them.
However, I am honest enough to admit my own cowardice at trying to make this happen for the word “creep.” I will probably let others lead the way into the buzzsaw on that one and just reap the benefits later. I’ll let others take point on this one. You first….
There’s one key difference: Being a slut can’t really lead to legal action. Not like it does with creep.
Personally, I think slut-shaming is mostly jealousy. Women say it in raw jealousy, and men say it in jealousy for, in essence, women’s privilege of sexual expression. Feminine sexuality isn’t considered slimy, threatening, or criminal like a man’s, it’s something desired. So people insult highly sexual women, seeing it as taking advantage of that system.
Men’s sexuality is considered creepy, risky, and slimy, unless you meet certain requirements:
-She was attracted to you already (unlikely, as she probably hasn’t noticed you yet)
-You aren’t nervous or awkward (nervousness is only natural in a situation where the man is both expected to make a move, and a slight wrong move can result in offense and discomfort. “creepiness”)
-You already appear high-status. That is, a popular guy calling you sexy makes your day. A “nerd” calling you sexy makes you want to reference your self-defense classes.
If you don’t meet these standards, you’re basically a creep.
As long as women are held on a sexual pedestal, and men’s sexuality is seen as creepy or annoying by default, we’re going to have the slut/stud double-standard. (It’s also a setup that reinforces itself.)
If a man get’s a girlfriend, he successfully walked the tightrope of showing interest without being creepy, yet without being nervous, and achieved the great feat of winning a girl’s heart. If a woman gets a boyfriend, she basically says yes to her choice of men who have made a move. Harsh? Maybe. True? I think so, as a generalization. At least it’s going away with these conversations.
Plus, notice how people (especially women) will try to dethrone a man’s legitimacy? It’s usually a phrase like “You probably couldn’t get a girlfriend if you were trapped on a desert island with a woman.” It’s a direct attack on his lovability as a person. It’s like attacking women politicians by telling them they’re ugly. Same basic principle.
If someone is considered immoral, they’re said to not be worthy of a woman. Does this not put women on a pedestal? The same pedestal that people will try to shame them off of? Just some food for thought.
“Personally, I think slut-shaming is mostly jealousy. Women say it in raw jealousy, and men say it in jealousy for, in essence, women’s privilege of sexual expression. Feminine sexuality isn’t considered slimy, threatening, or criminal like a man’s, it’s something desired. So people insult highly sexual women, seeing it as taking advantage of that system.”
Saying that women have “privilege of sexual expression” is so wildly inaccurate. The fact that we have words like “slut” and “whore,” that we reserve these words ONLY for women, (not for men mind you, we don’t really have insulting words for promiscuous men) and that promiscuous women (or even just women who enjoy sex and have lots of it) have been seen as sexual deviants throughout history shows that women don’t have any sort of “privilege of sexual expression” at all. (Unless you think the tendency to be half naked on a billboard is “sexual privilege”, which, if you do think that, I suggest you look up the definition of objectification and read through “Female Chauvinist Pig.” Please don’t conflate the supposed “sexual power” with other forms of power, it’s really a whole lot more complicated).
Also, you seem to conceive of the world as place where all women are simply picking from and fighting off hordes of men just clamoring for to be with them. Or as you say it, where all women are placed on a “sexual pedestal”… “where if a woman gets a boyfriend, she basically says yes to her choice of men who have made a move.”. First of all, this is not the reality, not for me, and not for any of the women that I know. And furthermore, a woman saying yes or no to whatever man she wants to be with is not a form of women exerting some innate sexual power or “privilege,” it’s women asserting her basic right to decide who she wants to be involved with romantically or sexually. To think otherwise implies that women “owe” something to men who pursue them (attractive, unattractive, awkward or otherwise). Men are not entitled to women, they are not entitled to their time, their bodies, anything, no matter how much a man likes a woman or wishes to pursue her.
Put away the Gender Studies textbook while you’re reading comments.
There are at least three levels of privilege here, and I think you and Web are talking past each other as a result.
Do our formal institutions (governments, corporations) permit women to express a sexuality? Yes, they do – women don’t have the a priori fear of institutional punishment when they invite a colleague for lunch, or touch, or flirt. Not the way men have to worry about it. Our institutions see these actions by women as non-threatening bydefault.
Socially, you are right, we punish women for expressing “too much” of their sexuality. We call them “sluts” or any of a number of euphemisms.
Sexually again, women are not just permitted to express their sexuality – it is enthusiastically welcomed! That’s how “sluts” continue to get men into bed, despite their reputation.
Can you think of more contexts in which privilege applies?
“Put away the Gender Studies textbook while you’re reading comments.”
Just a reminder that the GMP Commenting Policy bans personal insults. We ask that commenters keep away from condescending and insulting language. Thanks.
….(not for men mind you, we don’t really have insulting words for promiscuous men) …..
Dog (or some other reference to an animal or beast that only thinks about sex)
Perv
Leacher (leacherous, etc…)
Womanizer
Now if you want to talk about which ones are worse then go for it (but wouldn’t that be Oppression Olympics?) but to declare that really aren’t such words for men is untrue.
A creep is the leechy guy who followed me around in 8th grade and wouldn’t take a hint to go away until another guy (who liked me but also turned out to be a creep) had to make it clear to him…
A creep is the same guy who gets mad when he is rejected by the girl and then calls her “fat” later over some trivial encounter….
A creep is the same guy 30 years later who tries to stare at my ass surreptitiously (along with the second creep mentioned above) at HS Reunion [even though we’re all married now and my husband is standing right next to me)…
A creep is the same guy 3 years after Reunion who attends a mini-reunion and tries to come up behind me again but is stopped by my friends who are onto him….
Creepy behavior does not change over the decades….the only difference is now I refuse to be a victim of it…
“Creepy behavior does not change over the decades….the only difference is now I refuse to be a victim of it…”
Do you mean the creep themselves, or the behaviour? The 8th grade stuff can be those awkward folk that haven’t learned the appropriate way to socialize, hell what I know now compared to what I knew in 8th grade…I look back and think WTF were you thinking, but I had to go through the learning stage (occasionally thought of as a creep for lingering, reality was I was too shy and couldn’t think of what to say, scared shitless but trying to work up the courage and think of something).
I have a feeling quite a few of peoples creepy feelings is actually the person failing to understand the other, in this case it’s quite possible for a woman to misread someone as threatening or creepy when really they could just be lingering with their mind wondering what to do, what to say. Not all of us are born naturally good at socializing, I think it’s important kids be taught the local way especially the shy kids, I’ve seen and felt awkward from shy men and women who’ve tried to talk to me, usually it’s something like a long pause between speech and acting in a manner lacking confidence. What I know now though allows me usually to see the difference between it and it removed the awkward/creepy vibe.
But in this case the guy either didn’t learn, or really was a creep. Did he have any learning disabilities, or aspergers? Anything that might interfere with his ability to read social cues?
Thanks for responding, Archy…Yeah, I was discussing this with one of my HS friends who remembers that particular guy as “THE LEECH”…I think what saved me then were my friends surrounding me…he was quite intimidated by them (they were tall and could give quite intimidating looks!)….I, however, look like a nice, petite Asian girl (I guess he assumed that because he liked me that I should like him just because I was being nice)….
He’s the head of some techie/computer company….plus I have seen him interact with other classmates/friends of mine where he seems to be appropriate but I guess he looks at me like I’m the one who got away….which I understand…but openly leering at my rear is just rude….!
Have you ever told him about how the leering makes you feel? Maybe “I’m not sure if you mean to do this but I’ve noticed you checking me out which itself isn’t bad however I find it quite uncomfortable when it is for so long, it feels like you are leering at me. It feels quite rude and I’d prefer you not to do it”.
Basically don’t say creep, creepy, but say uncomfortable and hopefully that will wake him up to the behaviour. It’s quite possible he has NO idea of it’s effect, speaking as a guy myself who has checked women out before I never ever mean to make them feel uncomfortable but it can be hard to resist looking at such beauty, it really can be like a magnet. A common case of this would be tops that show cleavage and talking to a man or even a woman who is attracted to women. Cleavage can be a majooorr magnet, not only because breasts can be quite beautiful but because usually the clothing contrasts a lot with the skin tone, so it becomes even more noticable. I’ve had plenty of experiences of looking at someones eyes when speaking but my eyes looking down (usually when they look away as I really don’t want to make them uncomfy) and quite frankly I don’t always notice I do it.
Purposely walking up behind someone to check them out and leer though is very rude and no way on Earth would I do that, but I don’t think all people actually realize how rude it could be. We usually learn social cues and the appropriate behaviour of our region but I didn’t actually learn it fully until my mid 20′s, I was quite shy (and my bullying made me socially anxious and avoidant) and didn’t get much socializing done in highschool with the opposite sex so I would watch other guys and try to mimic them to fit in. Ever seen someone say something others just think “why on earth did you say that”, the awkward attempts to fit in and be humorous? I had my fair share of that but in my 20′s I actually learned better ways to socialize and now find it muchhh easier, make people laugh and it’s not awkward.
I was called creepy in highschool by a few girls (not all thankfully) and after looking back on my behaviour and asking around my best guess was because I lingered without talking, I’d linger after saying hi, how are you, trying to figure out what to say and probably losing track of time, then noticing their body langauge saying it’s awkward and leaving feeling frustrated because I had failed to talk. Did it for a while but mostly gave up near the end of highschool and became a bit of a loner, or only talked to guys. Now I dunno what went through their head but my guess was they wondered why I was around without talking much, I was also 6’4 or so and quite large at the time whilst they were quite short and petite which added probably another level of fear to them. The thing is I was more scared of them then they were of me, but they probably didn’t recognize that on me so it could be intimidating. A guy twice their size, being afraid of them, imagine that.
Now I don’t now what he is like but I am wondering if maybe you or others didn’t really think of him as being afraid, shy, socially awkward, insecure whilst trying to strike up the courage to really talk to you properly. It could be that he had a crush and froze up around you, on the outside that can look quite creepy if you don’t know what is going on in their mind. Do you think that could be a possibility here?
I can sort of see the comparison, but for me, “creep” isn’t a label that I simply give to unappealing men who approach me, it’s for men who genuinely make me and other women feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Creep implies that this person has a real potential to harm. Slut? Not to much. And yes, while both terms serve to shame someone, a slut, at least according popular belief (not my own mind you), doesn’t really threaten anyone’s safety other than her own ( in instances, for example, where sluts “set themselves up” to be harassed or assault). I feel like reclaiming “creep” would undermine the very real sense of danger that some women get around certain men (this isn’t to say that all women feel unsafe all the time or that we see every man as a potential criminal. At the heart of it, I feel safe around almost all men that I meet or encounter. The exception is when I experience street harassment or when I actually DO encounter a creep).
Again please keep in mind that I don’t think sluts “set themselves up”! I think that is the on the part of the assaulter/ harasser. No one ever asks or sets themselves up for assault/rape.
@ Juile
- The problem with the term “creep” is that it’s based on a woman’s feeling towards a man.
A woman’s feelings should not have weight in a person’s mind.
- A woman who drinks until she becomes inebriated has set herself up to be taken advantage of, some people even find being inebriated rewarding as it lossens them up.
also a woman who goes somewhere with a man she barely knows.
William, I think you could make the same argument about sexual harassment in that it also relies, to some extent, on subjective experience. Also, harassment, like “creeping” disrespects and violates someone boundaries. I would never say that women’s feelings should have weight in any one’s mind, but I would say we should all be mindful of other’s boundaries, man or woman. Creeps and those who who sexually harass others tend to either miss boundaries entirely or simply ignore them.
Too much alcohol and going home with strangers can be poor decisions but they are not excuses or reasons for sexual assault. People make think certain contexts make it easier for assault to occur, but at the end of the day, assault happens because someone decides to have sex with someone without prior consent regardless of how well they know each other or who has been drinking.
@Julie
Funny thing is i HAVE made the same argument about sexual harassment.
Someone who’s stepping over a person’s boundaries should be warned verbally, in a way that there’s no doubt the offending party understands.
While assaults do happen to woman who aren’t intoxicated by men they know, being intoxicated can still be a contributing factor.
Being intoxicated isn’t a crime, whether you’re doing it to loosen up, as part of a social function, or because you like the taste of a certain alcoholic beverage. The fault still lies SOLELY no the person who assaults. Women are supposed to keep from enjoying their lives or watching their every move just in case they get assaulted?
The fault still lies SOLELY no the person who assaults.
Certainly but this doesn’t stop people from pointing out how the person who was assaulted took certain actions that contributed to it.
William:
Someone who’s stepping over a person’s boundaries should be warned verbally, in a way that there’s no doubt the offending party understands.
The problem with this thought is that an assailant could very well just do something to their victim so that such clear communication isn’t possible. In fact that’s probably why assailants specifically look for people that are drunk, so they can argue, “But they didn’t say no.”
@Danny
The assailant can even say that since they were drunk they shouldn’t be believed.
“The fault still lies SOLELY no the person who assaults.
Certainly but this doesn’t stop people from pointing out how the person who was assaulted took certain actions that contributed to it.”
Yes, and that’s not a problem–it’s just when it becomes the point to shame or insult the victim that it becomes the problem. We’ve discussed the drinking thing somewhat, below. The other factors usually mentioned in this context are clothing and sexual history. Yeah, women go out looking to get a mate/get laid, impress other girls, or express themselves through clothing. Men do the same thing. I don’t see how this is grounds to shame them if they’re the victim of a crime. I guess you just have to take risks in order to live your life to the fullest and this is one of them. If I want to impress a good man I’m into or want to express myself, I have to take that risk.
I don’t think they mean it’s justified, I think they’re just saying the person has made themselves more vulnerable and that is risky? Although quite frankly I’m confused as to what they’re trying to discuss, do they mean when people refer to drunk women as sluts and mention how they are setting themselves up/increasing their vulnerability?
Define “assault” in this case. Are you suggesting having consensual sex with an intoxicated, but self mobile woman is assault, or you talking sex with a passed out, feel noting drunk? Because it sounds an awful lot like you are trying to claim someone can not be held responsible for their own choices they make while drunk, and I will never agree with that assertion.
Sorry, this question should be aimed at the comments upstream
Mark: Assault in this case is not having drunken or tipsy consensual sex with a willing partner. That’s fine, happens all the time, within relationships and outside of them. It’s using a woman being drunk as an excuse to assault her, violate her body and space, or shame her after she’s been hurt.
So it’s okay when it’s okay, and not when it’s not. Could you be more specific, like how a guy can tell the difference between tipsy/drunken consent that is real, and the kind that can be revoked and called assault later if the consent-giver changes her mind after sobering up? I’m talking about consent of the yes, let’s do it, actively reciprocating variety, not some BS about being too incapacitated to say No.
Also, do the same standards hold for men? If a guy has sex with a woman after he consumed a few drinks (let’s assume she’s sober for easiest comparison) and feels ashamed and regretful after he sobers up, does that mean she assaulted him?
“do the same standards hold for men? If a guy has sex with a woman after he consumed a few drinks (let’s assume she’s sober for easiest comparison) and feels ashamed and regretful after he sobers up, does that mean she assaulted him?”
Who said this was OK for women to do? It happens, and it sucks and can cause problems…but it’s no cause to put a man in jail, and the same vice versa. The point I was initially trying to make was that women can drink too (as men do often) and not be blamed when they end up in a ditch or something, or choking on their own blood, as has happened to a friend of mine.
I don’t know that I can be more specific. I know that I’ve personally never accused a man of anything when I’ve had drunken sex with him, but I can’t speak for all women. It does have to go back to the incapacitated thing, and that’s a hard line to draw. If a girl is lying there pretty much passed out or talking in tongues, then it’s probably wrong.
Aya, “Who said this was OK for women to do?”
Actually, a great many of the rape victim advocacy groups say any use of alcohol makes any sex, consensual or not, a rape. The FBI definition does so as well, a definition created with the aid of many of those rape groups.
“but it’s no cause to put a man in jail, ”
Except it is, which is one of the reasons the MRM dislikes the FBI definition (the other being the exclusion of forced envelopment as rape).
The problem Marcus has is, you say “using alcohol as an excuse to justify assault”, but did an assault occur and the man is justifying it by saying she consented while loosened up due to being drunk, or did consensual sex occur and the woman is justifying calling it assault because she was drunk and wouldn’t have consented while sober…Both are using alcohol as an excuse to justify their perspective (consensual vs assault). Under the way the system is currently going, drinking and having sex is very much becoming a crime.
And Mark, I think that is definitely pushing the definition of rape too far. There is a lot of inebriated consensual sex that goes on this world–from college campuses to within marriage. Even TV shows friendly towards women have depicted it. Two examples off the top of my head are Lilly getting drunk as she and Marshall are trying to have a baby in HIMYM and Carrie from SATC getting wasted so that sex with Berger won’t be as awkward as it had been. The FBI definition is dangerous.
Your second paragraph poses a good problem. It’s too situation dependent to know if there was an assault or not, and in most cases–probably not. It’s not a crime, just kind of sad that this man needs to get a woman plastered in order for her to want to have sex with him. In most cases, they were probably just having drunk but consensual sex. There’s even a strong chance that the woman decided while sober that she wanted to have sex with him, but then had some drinks later. It’s way too dependent on the situation to make a call. Simply being drunk doesn’t make it assault. But not every man is ethical enough to make a call on the situation. Some men will even go as far as to brag about taking advantage of drunk girls or to take explicit pictures of passed out girls.
What I do agree with rape advocacy groups doing is educating both victims and potential perps that rape isn’t just a guy coming out of an alley with a knife–that date rape does exist. For example, in college, I was asked by a male friend to go to his apartment so he could get me into this new show everyone was raving about and catch me up on it. I agreed, and he picked me up and drove me over to his place. We had a couple of drinks, some snacks, watched the show, and talked. He then proposed sex. I was not at all attracted to him. I, as well as other girls I know, had plenty of great platonic male friends, so it wasn’t naive to assume that ‘hanging out’ with a guy meant sex. I said no over and over and over. Eventually, I begrudgingly gave in because he was the only way I could get home that night, since he’d driven me. I was dating another guy openly at that point, so when I told him, he, not liking the guy I was hanging out with, punched me so hard in the jaw that it locked. I’ve only really paid attention to rape advocacy groups in the last year or so, so at the time, I took it as my fault (especially since at the time, I was engaging in ‘slutty’ behavior around campus, such as wearing sexy clothing and having casual flings).
Now, thanks to rape advocacy groups, I’m glad that I don’t place the blame on myself anymore and that I understand the importance of consent.
“The FBI definition is dangerous.”
Yes it is, yet, any time an MRA brings up this problem outside of spaces open to the discussion, we get called rape appologists (at best). Far too many advocacy groups have openly stated “A woman can not legally give consent while under the influence of alcohol”, and as you know, this has been incorporated into the FBI definition. IE, this way of thinking is actually making policy. This is why so many MRA’s are so picky about this discussion/distinction.
“It’s not a crime, just kind of sad that this man needs to get a woman plastered in order for her to want to have sex with him”
This demonstrates the issue I have with these discussions, the blame placed squarly on the man. I never gave any indication that it was he who got her drunk. I never gave any indication that he knew she would reject him if sober. It is entirely possible, given my scenario, that he didn’t know she would regret sex with him once sober until well after the act was done and forgotten (by him). But somehow, you managed to inject the creepy man taking advantage of a girl by getting her drunk narrative and blame so very common in our society these days. If there is a dispute, before any real information is known, the man is to blame until proven otherwise. Honest question, did you realize you did this (I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you didn’t intend to or do it conciously)? Do you realise how much of a negative impact that kind of narrative, so pervasive that people do it without realizing, has on our young men AND women (I think you do, given your calling the FBI definition dangerous)?
“Some men will even go as far as to brag about taking advantage of drunk girls or to take explicit pictures of passed out girls.”
The second is sexual assault, I will wholely support that, but that has less to do with alcohol and more to do with the lack of conciousness. Adding alcohol to the discussion as anything but a catalist for the unconsiousness confuses the issue. The first case is, as you said, situational. If the woman said yes and was cappable of participating, it’s not a crime as far as I’m concerned. Sleezy, yes. unethical, yes. crime, no.
I’m OK with raising awarness of Date Rape, I’m not OK with many (not all, there are some good ones) agencies definitions of date rape and their methods of advocating.
As to your situation, I’m sorry that happened, but I would not define that as rape. Coercion, most certainly. Unethical, definately. But you did ultimately consent, for reasons other than a desire to have sex, but for reasons that were your own. You admit you were in a relationship, could you not have called your boyfriend for a pick up, or to get money for a cab so you could cab it to his place? Did the guy refuse to drive you home if you didn’t have sex, or was that just an assumption on your part?
Don’t get me wrong, you didn’t deserve that to happen, nobody does. But you did have a choice, that choice wasn’t denied you. It was just a choice between unwanted (sex) or unpleasent and possibly dangerous (walking home), or embarassing (calling a friend or family). Rape, as far as I’m concern, is when the choice is denied (due to force or unconsiousness), or sever consequences for failing to perform are threatened (blackmail or threatened violence/death). If he wouldn’t let you leave the apparetment, that’s different, but that’s not what you described.
To be honest, while both men’s actions were reprehensable, I’m actually more concerned about the boyfriends reaction, and consider THAT the crime within the example. It almost seems to me you blame the locked Jaw on the guy you identify as rapist.
First of all, I’m very glad we can have this conversation in a civil manner and hopefully educate each other.
As for your honest question. I didn’t realize that I was doing it and I do see how it’s damaging. The reason I said that was that you said that if he got questioned, he would use her being drunk as the reason that she had sex with him. That was where the assumption came from.
As for the other thing.
If I hadn’t been embarrassed about putting myself in that situation, I might have at least called someone. As a college student without a car and whose friends mostly didn’t have cars (not to mention that I was scared and not thinking clearly, and I would feel like a bitch for asking someone to come get me all the way out where I was). It was known that I was in a relationship, but also that it was open. My boyfriend also didn’t have a car. This is college, remember. Public transportation was not an option where I was, especially after a certain hour. I would have had to walk a very long way in the dark to find a bus, and at the time, I didn’t have a smartphone to make things easier. I wish that I had considered a taxi, but it just didn’t enter into my head–I guess I brushed them aside as an expense only used in big cities or if you can’t find a ride from the airport and forgot to book a shuttle. The problem with situations like this is that while it may not be a crime, there was a real problem with people consenting when they see it as the only option. It’s better to eventually consent than to have no way out, to fear violence, or to be stuck in a situation for a number of hours. I could have called my conservative mom, 45 minutes away to get me, but isn’t that itself dangerous and a form of blackmail? Waited outside at night by myself? It may not have been rape, but he should be educated on how to behave like a good man.
And a rather similar situation to this happened to a male friend, where he had sex with a girl he found disgusting because he felt that he had to. He was humiliated. This type of thing doesn’t only affect women.
“That was where the assumption came from.”
Fair enough. at least it wasn’t completely out of the blue. I suspect I’ve gotten so used to being on the defensive in these discussion I included the defence as subconsciously as I suspect your part was.
Again, I don’t disagree his behaviour was reprehensible, or that he should be educated not to do that shit, just that it wasn’t rape (unless there was a confinement or threat of violence, and not just an internal fear, which would bring us around to the Schroedinger’s rapist discussion, which I’d rather not get into, as we’ve derailed enough.). The only question I really have left is, what was your plan to get home if he got drunk? You said you two had been drinking, did he drive you home drunk?(tisk tisk
) My point for this question is that I feel girls ALSO need to be educated to take responsibility for their own safety (and my reasoning for using drunk driving is to remove the whole victim blaming angle so often injected when this point is brought up). Had you been educated to not leave your safety solely in the hands of others, but to take responsability yourself, you may have already had a contingency set up, and you when the coercion began and you started to fear and panic, that contingency, already considered, could have allowed you to avoid an undesireable situation. Please don’t take this as blaming, as it’s not intended as such.
“And a rather similar situation to this happened to a male friend, where he had sex with a girl he found disgusting because he felt that he had to. ”
I’m aware of similar situations. I’ve read two accounts online where a guy was forced to have sex under threat of a false rape accusation. That’s rape, because it overtly “threatens” severe consequences. regretably, the Law does not see it as such.
People often say alcohol helps give courage, lowers inhibition, etc. If a person is feeling shy and someone offers alcohol to loosen them up, does it become rape? By loosen up I don’t mean stumbling drunk, but maybe happy buzz or less? Still able to walk, and say no (though to what extent consent exists is confusing with the Australian laws), they are still capable of initiating etc. But due to alcohol beind in their system, at what point does this neutralize the ability to consent? 1 drink? Is the person offering a drink a decent person, a jerk, or a rapist?
For myself I think 1-2 drinks would have helped me the first time when I had sex, just enough to help lower my anxiety a bit. But I can still think at that point. If I was overly insecure of my body and didn’t want to have sex, but had alcohol to the point I wasn’t insecure and was ok with having sex would it be rape? Is there ever a way to positively give alcohol to reduce inhibitions/insecurities/fear enough so someone could have sex when they may not have sober due to high level of insecurity? Or would it be rape?
At the moment I’m not getting laid but it’s been bugging me for a while, if I meet someone at a party and we’ve had some drinks are we legally able to consent to sex? I never ever want to take advantage of someone, I’d hate myself if I had sex with someone who was drunk and later felt like I took advantage, to me alcohol and sex sounds risky as hell and thus makes me very nervous to do it unless sober. The law on alcohol and consent just confuses me more, if she initiates and is all over me but she’s had quite a few drinks then having sex with her becomes rape??
So long as a person can be held accountable for drinking and driving, or for killing someone while under the influence, they are responsible for their own choices to actively and willingly participate in sexual activities while under the influence. Do note the active and willing participation part, meaning passed out drunk doesn’t count.
Aya appears to agree with this, as determined in our conversation that follows. Regrettably, laws and policies are being put in to place that don’t agree with this, and that is why there is such a problem for men these days (because the reverse scenario would never be taken seriously. This is evidenced by the fact they can both be drunk and only the man is considered to have raped the woman).
@Aya
- “Women are supposed to keep from enjoying their lives or watching their every move just in case they get assaulted?
YES
Everyday we take actions to protect our property and ourself, but when it comes to sexual assault all of a sudden it’s wrong ?
If someone wants to safely drink themselves silly they should stay home.
Really, William? So when I go out with my friends, the men in my party are allowed to get drunk but I’m not? Unless I’m the designated driver, that doesn’t sound very fair. A vagina (or any other part of my body) isn’t an IPhone. They’re an integral part of who I am, my physiology–as is my sexuality. They’re not some ‘property’ I’m I need to put a lock on or make sure I don’t accidentally drop. I can’t have a long, annoying week and go out and get some beers by myself at the local pub? I can’t enjoy a wine tasting? And again–a night with friends–the women should just watch the men get plastered while they twiddle their thumbs? No thank you.
@Aya
I wouldn’t hold someone else responsible for getting me home safely.
I didn’t say you couldn’t have a drink, just that you couldn’t become intoxicated.
Both men and woman should be responsible when drinking.
I think reclaiming creep is going to be hard if for no other reason that there are some instances in which it actually fits. But I can understand the desire to push back against people that use it incorrectly. Because unlike what a certain former contributor may have said creep shaming is real and no amount of “its my opinion” will change that.
There’s a big difference between creep and slut. “Slut” as an insult is dependant on the idea that it’s bad for a woman to have sex, and that women who have too much sex are bad people, which is obviously gendered. Meanwhile “creep” is the noun version of “creepy” which basically just means scary. The reason it gets applied to men is the assumption that only men would pursue sex, or at least only men would do it in a potentially dangerous way. There are a lot of times where men cross women’s boundaries, and these men are potentially dangerous and thus deserving of the word creep. The problem is that all men stereotypes this way, and that in some circumstances are encouraged to pursue sex in this way.
If we really wanted to “reclaim” the word creep is to de-gender the word and words like it. A woman who obsesses over a guy is a creep. Woman who intentionally manipulates men are abusive creeps. A woman who coerces a guy into having sex with her isn’t a “cougar” or even a “man eater” she is in fact a rapist who happens to be female, which is more than just creepy.
The term creep is supposed to denote someone who is vaguely threatening, and being threatening, even vaguely threatening is a genuinely bad thing, unlike being a slut. The only problem of course is the assumption that women can do no harm. Yes being bigger and stronger does make men more threatening, but the current climate takes that idea WAY too far.
I am curious why being seen to be threatening, even vaguely threatening, is a bad thing? Consider that it is based on the perception of others. I have been called aggressive and threatening; when I asked why it was simply because I was taller than them. I find it amusing that those who called me aggressive have never actually seen me angry, they were projecting their own inadequacies into the situation..
Men, as a generalisation, are raised to care far too much about the approval of women. When we can set that irrelevancy aside, creep will lose its sting. I am bigger and stronger due to my biology, I will not permit someone to try to make me feel ashamed of that.
I find it amusing that those who called me aggressive have never actually seen me angry, they were projecting their own inadequacies into the situation.
Good point. Maybe some of the folks that like to paint you up as aggressive just because you are tall/black/large/male (and BTW I am all four of those meaning I hold the title of Big Scary Black Man) are doing so because they are projecting. I guess instead of being aggravated by their insistence that I need to change my I should just feel sorry for them and the fact that they are so insecure.
Men, as a generalisation, are raised to care far too much about the approval of women.
Oh yeah there is truth here, lots of it. And I think that is why its such an effective tactic for women in impose on us that we are the ones that need to make them feel safe whether we are long time friends or Random Stranger 1 that we’ve never crossed paths with before and will never cross paths with again.
When we can set that irrelevancy aside, creep will lose its sting. I am bigger and stronger due to my biology, I will not permit someone to try to make me feel ashamed of that.
I’ve been thinking about this myself some lately too. Instead of going out of my way to make them feel safe I think it might be better to just do my thing. If they have a problem with men or “feel threatened” then that’s their problem, not mine. Thing is those at first I was of the mind that that was a little cold hearted but at this point if my choices are cold hearted or walking on eggshells to make women feel safe when I’ve done nothing to deserve that presumption of guilt, cold hearted is looking real good.
“Men, as a generalisation, are raised to care far too much about the approval of women.”
“Oh yeah there is truth here, lots of it.”
Right well, not to derail, but the opposite is true too. Women are raised to believe that our self-worth is centered in how men perceive us. Yes, even with feminism, that’s still true. (To a certain extent everyone’s raised to care a hell of a lot what everyone thinks about them…constantly trying to get approval of others, but that’s another topic).
And not looking to argue, because I agree with the quotes from you both that I used. I just felt the need to step in and provide a bit of perspective…point out that women aren’t living these charmed lives free from social expectations and burdens.
. Women are raised to believe that our self-worth is centered in how men perceive us.
Agreed. And this belief that one’s self worth is tied to how others perceive us is often used as a weapon to get us to act in certain ways. Appealing to that deep belief that what others think of us matter so much that we must change our behavior in order to please them, and thus be considered “right”.
I just felt the need to step in and provide a bit of perspective…point out that women aren’t living these charmed lives free from social expectations and burdens.
Fair enough.
“I just felt the need to step in and provide a bit of perspective…point out that women aren’t living these charmed lives free from social expectations and burdens.”
Until you added this to the discussion, it didn’t concern whether women have it worse, or equal, or not. I believe you are trying to make a positive contribution but whether women have comparable experiences is, in this case, irrelevant. Every conversation about men is not necessarily an opportunity to talk about women.
To be fair, what you just said is very similar to many of the arguments used to justify not including men’s concerns in feminist discussions about women. It’s far less condescending and far more reasoned than “what about the menz”, but very much along the same lines.
I say let this mention be. I don’t want to be like some feminist that flips the hell out at the mention of men and assumes that any mention of men is an attempt at taking over the conversation.
You know I’ve been thinking this way for a while. I’ve grown pretty tired of being expected to walk on eggshells for women so they don’t “feel threatened”. I understand that is the result of their own experiences and fears that are shoved down their throats, but since they shouldn’t feel obligated to sooth my fears why should I feel obligated to sooth theirs?
Men, as a generalisation, are raised to care far too much about the approval of women.
True and I think this is a big reason why guys will bend over backwards to make sure women feel safe.
I am bigger and stronger due to my biology, I will not permit someone to try to make me feel ashamed of that.
I can dig that. I may be the trifecta of presumed guilt (male/large/black, but oddly I’m only allowed to complain about two of those three, guess which one I can’t talk about without being declared a hater of women?), but that doesn’t mean that I owe it to women to address their insecurities, especially if its deemed unfair that I expect them to address mine.
@ Danny
“I can dig that. I may be the trifecta of presumed guilt (male/large/black, but oddly I’m only allowed to complain about two of those three, guess which one I can’t talk about without being declared a hater of women?)”
I remember in a discussion months back about woman fearing men as they walk down the street, some people couldn’t see the comparison between: being BLACK walking the street and being a MAN walking the streets.
I’m also black and agree that we’ve gotten the ok to complain about this but it still hurts to know our complaints wouldn’t be taken seriously if it weren’t for our race.
Oh I remember that as well.
Just another day in the world of it being okay to talk about how you’re bring treated unfairly….unless you’re a male then nothing is unfair and you deserve how you’re treated.
“You know I’ve been thinking this way for a while. I’ve grown pretty tired of being expected to walk on eggshells for women so they don’t “feel threatened”.
And I don’t think too many women feel that you should. It goes back to being able to live your life. You shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells in fear of threatening women any more than I should not drink on the town or not wear my favorite mini skirt in fear of being blamed if I’m assaulted. As long as you’re not actually disrespecting personal boundaries, you’re free to do whatever you want and walk wherever you want.
And I don’t think too many women feel that you should.
I’m not sure about that. Its been more than once I’ve said something about this and as a black male I was basically cut in two where it was fine to say such treatment was a problem because I’m black but saying something it was a problem because I’m a man is taken as a sign that I want to control women.
I’m in a situation where I could actually stop such an assailant or if I myself were one then by all means hold me responsible. But as it stands the only thing that such women have to hang that gendered responsiblity on me with is the fact that I’m male. If I can’t draw assumptions about women because they are women then women shouldn’t be allowed to draw assumptions about men because they are men.
You shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells in fear of threatening women any more than I should not drink on the town or not wear my favorite mini skirt in fear of being blamed if I’m assaulted.
Agreed. What you wear, what you drink, and how you act are not invitations for assault. It just bugs me that some of the very same advocates that would say you should not have to live with such fear over the way you dress will turn around and say that it is not a problem when I am treated the way I am because I’m male.
I’m nominating Creep Creep as the alternative to the Slut Walk. Or Creep Stalk.
Can we just all join hands and make a Slut Walk Creep Stalk?
All we are saaaayin’, is give creeps a chance…
Nice!
I think it’s as more playa hatin.
Remember, “don’t hate the playa, hate the game.”
I read “playa” and saw Spanish and thought “Who hates the beach?”
Haters gonna hate. Those words of wisdom get me through every Christmas visit with my family….
The usage of creep seems to differ a bit from the one I am accustomed to. I’ve had guys initiate romantic interactions that I am uninterested in reciprocating and I wouldn’t necessarily call their behavior creepy. I would use the word creep in the following instances: unwanted physical contact, especially if repeated and especially if the subject has been asked to stop; unwanted requests to enter the vehicle of an unknown subject especially if accompanied by comments on my physical attractiveness, and especially if the subject appears to be stronger than me physically; threats–either physical or nonphysical (either on their own or in relation to the above). I’ve experienced the above more from men than women but I’ve had guy friends who have experienced women behaving in similar ways. So I wouldn’t define creep as attached to one gender.
I feel the same way about the use of the word slut. All too often I hear slut defined as a women with a lot of sexual partners, but I’ve never known actual counts to be related. To me, and most men I know, a slut is someone who overtly and unashamedly promotes and provides their sexuality in a manner deemed inappropriate for the situation. A woman who has a lot of sexual partners is not a slut. A woman who is actively and openly trying to attain as high a sexual partner count as she possibly can IS (FYI, such behaviour in a man, to me, is just as reprehensible.). A woman in a short skirt is not a slut. A woman in a short skirt, no panties and not enough modesty or concern to know that her cooch is showing when she bends down spread eagle to touch the dance floor, or places that new guy she just met on the dance floors hands between her thighs so he knows she’s not wearing any panties, she might just be (especially if this is at a wedding, for example). Oh, and slut is often used as an insult by a man against a woman when he feels slighted in some sexual way, such as cheated on or rejected (as irrational as that may be), but this has less to do with the woman herself and more to do with the man feeling sexually slighted and wanting to attack the woman’s sexuality (this particular example tends to go one way (towards women, though it can come from other women who feel slighted due to the targeted woman’s sexuality), but there are similar examples for different situations of these behaviour being common amongst both genders).
For this reason, the whole “stud vs slut double standard” argument has never fully sat well with me
Reminds me of the joke definition: a “slut” is woman who has sex with other men but not me.
As ludicrous a definition, that’s exactly right, for one of the meanings/examples. The thing is, like most derogatory words, the meaning changes based on the person saying it, their mood/attitude, the person they’re saying it to and the reason.
My personal experience is the word is used most often by women who feel threatened by the overt sexuality of another woman, and by men who feel sexually slighted. All other uses are rare in comparison.
And I’d like to point out, nether of those uses has anything to do with number of partners.
The usage of creep seems to differ a bit from the one I am accustomed to. I’ve had guys initiate romantic interactions that I am uninterested in reciprocating and I wouldn’t necessarily call their behavior creepy. I would use the word creep in the following instances: unwanted physical contact, especially if repeated and especially if the subject has been asked to stop; unwanted requests to enter the vehicle of an unknown subject especially if accompanied by comments on my physical attractiveness, and especially if the subject appears to be stronger than me physically; threats–either physical or nonphysical (either on their own or in relation to the above). I’ve experienced the above more from men than women but I’ve had guy friends who have experienced women behaving in similar ways. So I wouldn’t define creep as attached to one gender.
Nope, I can’t own “creep.” Need a new word.