This is a comment by Steph and NaHa on the post “The Fourth Meditation On Blind Spots”.
Ozyfrantz originally wrote:
“I mean, both of those lists kind of suck, for a whole host of reasons. However! ‘She’s just friends with me because I’m confident and have a good sense of humor’ is actually pretty flattering. ‘He’s just friends with me because I have nice boobs and am a size two and might be able to have sex with him’ is … not. At all.”
Steph said:
“I actually think that this is a really accurate reading of things, and likely says a lot about how we think about rejection as well. ‘She rejected me because I’m thinks I’m a loser with a horrible personality’ sounds a lot more damning than ‘He rejected me because of my cup size.’ The first of those says that you got rejected because you’re a horrid person. The second of those says that you got rejected because the person who rejected you was shallow. I think that this could explain a lot about the ways in which men and women tend to react to rejection, as well as the whole ‘sex is an achievement for men, but women just have to show up’ sort of thinking … ”
NaHa responded:
“Thank you, you just explained one of my blind spots to me. I’ve always wondered why rejection never seems to trigger the same essential self doubt in my female friends (many of whom ask men out, at least occasionally) it does in me and most of my male friends.
“But, as you say, it makes perfect sense: in the Cultural Narrative For Girls rejection just means you don’t pass that guy’s shallow ‘hotness test.’ It’s obviously never a judgment of your real worth as a person or your character. Because men are Sex Crazed Animals who just care about tits and ass, and not about personality and character.
“God, societies gender roles are so toxic all around.”
Photo credit: Flickr / kelsey_lovefusionphoto
Well, maybe the tide has already changed and the old dynamics have worn away. Very few men are approaching women and women have to approach as a result, learning something about rejection.Maybe this will help women give men more value.I hope so.
Here’s the deal. I think men feel that beginning a relationship with a woman (if it’s tagged as possibly romantic or even possibly leading to sex) as riskier. They are usually, even these days, the ones coming forward, after all. And many women put a negative twist (even subtly) on men coming forward this way. There is often a little hint of shockability or punishment involved. (“How dare you?” even if not expressed.) The idea is that you shouldn’t have tried because you ultimately want to make me do “something dirty.” Even for women who are pretty nice, and who… Read more »
I don’t agree it’s about punishment so much as women being fearful that they are going to be used for sex. I do agree that women do have their defenses way up which might make a woman respond with more negative zeal or think automatically the worse of something or someone in a given situation. But I don’t think it’s because women want to feel like men are dirty little boys that they get to punish so much as women don’t want to be used for sex in a culture that uses women 24/7 for sex. Keep in mind, sex… Read more »
Probably so. It’s sad.
How most women ( like Erin and Aya ) turn this debate into casual sex and its not a privilege for them amaze me. Really, approaching for opposite sex its just about casual sex? You never think that so many men approaching women is not about sex at all, its about we want a partner, lover , girlfriend, and even wife? You said you don’t have privilege, but having a man, a potential partner, a potential lover, potential boyfriend, potential husband, asking you out is still privilege, and its not about sex at all. Its initial phase of relationship, whether… Read more »
John, If I don’t see casual sex as a privilege, then it’s not a privilege for me. I should have the agency to set those parameters for myself regardless of what you believe they should be. Just because you see it as privilege, doesn’t mean I have to agree with that. My experiences have taught me that casual sex is the furthest thing from “privilege”. There was nothing casual sex ever brought me that gave me an advantage over men. I actually think casual sex gives men more privilege than it actually does women. I even recounted a personal experience… Read more »
How many times i need to tell you that its not about casual sex at all and i dont give a damn thing about casual sex and i dont give a damn shit if you like casual sex or not!!! ITS NOT ABOUT SEX!!! When i’m talking how you women have privileges is you have an advantage in initial relationship, when a man asking you out. It can be a meaningless boring casual sex that you dont like or it can turn to real relationship, thats why you having advantages….becasue you have chance at relationship, not casual sex.! ITS ABOUT… Read more »
sorry i mean ITS NOT ABOUT SEX!!!!!!!!!!!
And where i ever said casual sex is privilege for you?? I believe you dont like casual sex, but i dont care cause i think you have privilege is not about sex at all…
once again, ITS NOT ABOUT CASUAL SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many times i need to tell you that its not about casual sex at all and i don’t care about casual sex and i don’t care if you like casual sex or not!!! ITS NOT ABOUT SEX!!! When i’m talking how you women have privilege is you have an advantage in initial relationship, when a man asking you out. It can be a meaningless boring casual sex that you dont like or it can turn to real relationship, thats why you having advantages….because you have chance at relationship, not casual sex.! I NEVER SAID WOMEN HAVE PRIVILEGE BECAUSE THEY… Read more »
Well I assume many are using a similar model of privilege as male privilege, where things I don’t want are privileges such as my ability to get into all areas of the military vs a woman. You may not see it as a female privilege, but it’s a privilege that females can get and those that like it that use it are female.
The discussion of privilege generally backfires in my case. I don’t feel sympathy, I just feel fortunate. I welcome anyone who says they have a harder time than I do, because I am happy to let you win that argument. If there’s a competition out there to see who has the worst life, I will gladly let someone else win every time. In the race to see who has the worst life, I hope to come in near the bottom. If you tell me I’m privileged, then I won’t deny it, whether it’s true or not. I will just thank… Read more »
@Leia: For the most part, I’m with you in that men need and should do something different to change the dating dynamic. What that change should look like is where we are different in our perspectives. What you suggest is the short term answer. It restores some of a man’s power and leaves him less susceptible to the vagaries of dating power plays. The long-term, straightforward and simple solution is for women to ask men out and for men to DEMAND that they start doing so instead of just complaining about them not doing so.
It’s like comparing two different degrees of problems. Men are starving third worlders and women are people living in industrialized nations turning their noses up at hotdogs and beans and saying the two problems are the same. They aren’t.
Yes, yes, and a thousand times yes!
Yay for comparing human human beings to food again. I’d just love to enjoy an intimate, supposed to be wonderful moment with someone who sees me and hot dogs and beans or moldy bread. Huge privilege there. -_-
You at least have the option of being passive and not having to worry about starving to death.
“not having to worry about starving to death.”
True, because women may have options that are barely edible and borderline poisonous even if men don’t. This is the metaphor of food for sexual privilege? The increased opportunity to choke down something? Hardly a great one.
(I get the sense that this is how many women would respond to the idea that they have an easier time dating than men do.)
To be fair, on one hand, I do get it, that there is *some* privilege (although men have privilege in other arenas–slut-shaming, for example). I want sex every day. I’m often tempted by craigslist ads for casual encounters–just to get it out of my system a little or to fulfill a fantasy (for example, a massage therapist who goes too far or a threesome with a married woman). Yet, the risks often seem to outweigh the benefits. And I hate feeling like crap afterwards or risking a good man turning me down for a true relationship because I’ve had too… Read more »
Many privileges have risks n negatives, doesn’t negate the privilege since it’s still a chance at something the other gender has a much harder time getting.
@Aya: It seems clear to me that of you are currently having sex outside of your presumably primary intimate relationship this proves my point and I think is consistent with what many men have been saying. Which is that women can and do get aroused sufficiently to have great sex without the so called libido driving effects of connection. What I and many men are saying is that we would prefer to be the surrogate lover rather than the boyfriend for whom the burden of connection in exchange for a sex life rests. In fact, your arrangement proves that women… Read more »
Here’s the thing, ogwriter. While I can separate, I LOVE the “burden” of connection. I love being in love. When I have a partner, I love cooking for him, getting him gifts, making him feel loved, making him feel special, holding him, building a life together. It’s a blessing far more than it is a burden. And it’s sad that men don’t seem to want that. I also want sex as often as it’s available, but it’s so much better when there’s a connection.
@ Aya: You miss my point. The burden I speak of is the idea that the primary male partner has to do more, invest more into her self esteem help with her insecurities, do things for her to get his woman to have consistent sex with him.The surrogate doesn’t have to do that. You say that the sex with the primary, when there is love, is better but that is just a preference not a hard and fast rule.Many men see this and are choosing to be the surrogate not the husband or the boyfriend and it makes sense to… Read more »
Ms. AYA – You really don’t think that guys do not want to cuddle with YOU, buy YOU gifts (hoping that they might please you), cook for YOU, give YOU foot massages and make YOU feel loved? From my end, you would probably walk right by guys like us and keep your nose high in the air. Is that what happens?
“And it’s sad that men don’t seem to want that.” The more some of the female writers here comment, the more I realize they haven’t got a clue about men. To seriously think men don’t want or value that, you didn’t say some, most, or define how many men, you just said men. Do you even know men at all? Even a teensy tiny bit? Even I have said I love making my partner feel special, etc. So do you think men just do that stuff all for sex or something? Seriously ladies are there any of you out there… Read more »
@Aya: Just the fact that you have considered acting out your fantasy, which I’m not judging, is yet more proof that women don’t need but rather prefer connection for arousal to some men. I have been the fantasy massage therapist and I know the power of fantasy can trump even love and connection. I’m sure from a practical perspective, the fantasy sex was in many ways better than the connected sexual experiences, otherwise, why have fantasy sex. Frankly, what you are talking about are romantic notions about love, not reality. The reality is you can get pretty hot and aroused… Read more »
“I’m often tempted by craigslist ads for casual encounters–just to get it out of my system a little or to fulfill a fantasy (for example, a massage therapist who goes too far or a threesome with a married woman). Yet, the risks often seem to outweigh the benefits. And I hate feeling like crap afterwards or risking a good man turning me down for a true relationship because I’ve had too much sex. ”
First world problems.
Just saying.
“Yay for comparing human human beings to food again. I’d just love to enjoy an intimate, supposed to be wonderful moment with someone who sees me and hot dogs and beans or moldy bread. Huge privilege there. -_-” If that is how YOU CHOOSE TO SEE IT then that is your problem. Or you could join the rest of humanity in seeing it as what it is, sex, which can be anything you want it to be. It can be a special moment between strangers, it can be a fun activity to do together without the need to be mindboggling… Read more »
Imagine the frustration of hearing women complain that they get so many messages on dating sites that they have to ignore some, then try to act like they aren’t privileged in at least one aspect of dating whilst men usually get Z E R O contact. We realize you may not want casual sex but please understand that to the men it’s better than nothing, many of us would rather some form of intimacy vs none. I have privilege in access to all military roles however I don’t want it, doesn’t mean the privilege isn’t there. Remember that many of… Read more »
Yup, better to have loved n lost…
There is a great deal of comments — mostly by women — that discounts the importance of the approach. I think we can all agree that both men and women have probably equal difficulty while dating. With that said, men have far more challenges with regard to initiating dating. I like to compare this to a game. We’re playing Monopoly, and I am stuck on Go. I can’t get off go. Sure, we may have the same difficulty after we make the turn, but the very fact that women can roll the dice and proceed forward is a HUGE advantage.… Read more »
This seems relevant to the conversation, make of it what you will. I met a woman,our paths crossed in the nieghborhood and we hit it off immediatly.She was walking her dog and had on no make up and was dressed simply. We had a great conversation that ended with me ( breaking a rule) asking her out for coffee.She was beaming. She said it was nice of me to ask and she gave me a big hug and we said goodbye. I called her and she said call back tomorrow.I did and she said call back later.I asked her call… Read more »
This seems relevant to the conversation, make of it what you will. I met a woman,our paths crossed in the nieghborhood and we hit it off immediatly.She was walking her dog and had on no make up and was dressed simply. We had a great concersation that ended with me asking her out for coffee.She was beaming. She said it was nice of me to ask and she gave me a big hug and we said goodbye. I called her and she said call back tomorrow.I did and she said call back later.I asked her call me instead. She called… Read more »
She may have been too tired, I’d say give it another shot. Some people are pretty abrupt like that.
She may have been tired or something might have happened. I had a similar experience the day my grandfather died. I didn’t want to tell that to a stranger and I tried my hardest to listen to him talk, but my head was elsewhere. I just wanted to hang up the phone and break down as soon as possible.
@ Archy and Aya: Archy i’m surprised at your position on this though I am not surprised at all in Aya’s. Here is why. On at least 4 separate interactions with this female I have initiated contact or attempted to move things forward, following her lead and encouragements. 1) Based upon our connection I asked her for her phone number 2) I asked her out for coffee, which she said pleased her. 3) After calling her, as she asked, she asked me to call again. 4) I called again and guess what she put me off and asked me to… Read more »
Og, from what I read in the first comment it was only 1 instance of brushing off, which to me means it could just be a life getting in the way (illness, tiredness, etc). If it’s a pattern then I wouldn’t suggest giving another chance, or maybe ask her what it going on? I didn’t know it happened more than once.
I completely agree that men suffer more rejection than women by virtue of being the ones that typically do the asking, and for that I am truly sorry. Being rejected is shitty. But I want to dispel the idea that attractive women are “set”. I have many attractive female friends who have not been asked out in YEARS. These are beautiful women with rich social lives and great careers, and they are NEVER asked out. This is confirmed over and over again by my friends. One of my friends who is on an online dating site recently told me that… Read more »
One of my friends who is on an online dating site recently told me that a guy she met online told her he never would have approached her in “real life.”
JUST got told this by a guy I met online.
That’s because there are a hell of a lot of guys who are shy these days I guess. I myself find it easier to approach women online but even still it’s nerve-racking. The more beautiful they are, the worse it gets too though that’s partly my history with bullying at play and the popular pretty types being bullies. Beautiful women can be very intimidating, it’s weird, but I wonder how much is based off high-school bullying? It seems fairly common that even women tell me many women in high-school that were bullies were the pretty popular type. That fear probably… Read more »
@Archy: I have to disagree with you that body image problems affect everyone. The comment while true in some a ways is deceptive in others. Body image problems problems affects those who have bought into the lie about the Nordic white woman( think Barbi) by and large, is the epitome of beauty. Yes, some black women and some Latina and Asian women have bought into that nonsense too. However, the problem for those communities, because of race, is colored differently than what a white woman experiences.Their body image issues are complicated by the demands of assimilation. Archy think of aborigines… Read more »
I meant people of all races/groups, shouldn’t have said everyone as in all 6 billion of us.
“They also feel responsible for keeping the relationship going. ”
And tend to do so by telling the man what he needs to change. Which men to a large extent try to do. Almost all couples I know of are like this. Almost all couples I see interviewed on TV or written about in relationship advice columns are like this. THe woman suggests changes to the man that he has to make far more than the other what around. What is more demanding. Figuring out how you want your partner to behave or doing the accommodating.
‘She rejected me because I’m thinks I’m a loser with a horrible personality’ sounds a lot more damning than ‘He rejected me because of my cup size.’ I don’t agree with this. According to Bay Area Guy, looks and being female are all that matter. If your’e not attractive, you’re shit out of luck finding love. Just don’t bother. If you do, you’re just being settled for. If you *are* attractive, you’re shit out of luck having a guy who truly loves you and sees you as special. You’re interchangeable with any woman who is at your level of pretty.… Read more »
Aya, I do not plan on forcing myself to like women I find unattractive just because they’re having trouble finding someone, there are limits to my volunteerism. There are men who idolize beauty and will chase it down anywhere they can find it, I am not one of them. However, on both sides this obviously goes beyond one’s ability to find a partner. This is about vanity. Men have an ego-investment in being “the guy who can get any woman he wants” and women in being “the woman that makes everyone’s head turn.” Until you get over that, you won’t… Read more »
Yeah, I doubt any woman would want a man to have to “force” himself to be with her. No one is asking you to give that kind of “volunteerism” (if that’s what it could even be called) to someone.
And I hope the man I am with things I am the most beautiful in the world. That’s what it’s about. Being with someone you think is special above all others. Do I actually need to be the most beautiful woman in the world for him to see me that way? I don’t think so.
Beautiful in looks, or the whole package including personality? Do you want him to think of you physically as the most beautiful? This part is confusing, are you referring to how love can make someone appear even more attractive to the point no one else compares? I can understand the special part but the beauty part is throwing me off as it can mean superduper physically beautiful, or your personality mostly makes you even more beautiful, where someone who isn’t super-hot becomes so because of how you feel for them. And by superhot I mean the absolute limit of beauty,… Read more »
Why not both? Isn’ that the whole package anyway? Physically and emotionally beautiful? Why can’t a man see his wife/gf the most beautiful? Unfortunetly, it might have something to do with all the visual entitlement out there that we are experiencing with the information age. Men are overtly spoiled with visual information and images of beautiful women. I think men have become a bit entitled regarding beauty and unfortunetly, it’s their female partners that get the shaft for it. Especially when men are on a regular kick of seeking out other visuals of more beautiful women then having fits about… Read more »
“Why not both? Isn’ that the whole package anyway? Physically and emotionally beautiful?” Well I saw her that way, but I was trying to figure out if you meant looks or both as often when I hear the term beautiful it refers strictly to physical looks. Why can’t a man see his wife/gf the most beautiful? Many do, love makes this happen more I believe. “I always find it funny when men get pissed off at women about this topic because a lot of men are still looking at porn of 18-25 year olds but then give their own partners… Read more »
Well initially yes women are replaceable, and men. You aren’t going to be special straight out of the gates. Takes time to get to know people n find out what makes them special. I’d say looks get you in the door for most people, male n female. You need a certain level of attraction for each person and that varies on the scale of course but fall below it and you probably won’t get a date. And before any women come in saying they don’t care about looks, would you date a morbidly obese man with a face that is… Read more »
Men have far more power to find and connect with the woman they want to be with than women have the power to find and connect with the men they want to be with. This is logically inherent in a model of dating where the men always do the approaching. Essentially, a man can say “Yes” to any woman he sees, but a woman can only say “Yes” to a man whom has already said “Yes” to her. However, it is quite apparent that approaching someone requires an emotional investment, in fact there is even scientific proof of this and… Read more »
Women can both get hit on and ask out others. Far less women ask out men but it’s still an option for them but men are pretty much only ever going to get a relationship by asking women out. Women can and do ask out men yet very few men get asked out, they can take a proactive stance but often choose not to whilst men are forced to take a proactive stance due to women taking the more passive route. One thing that sets women apart from men is that shy women still get hit on, shy men do… Read more »
Do keep in mind that not every rejection is a declaration of your inferiority. Some people are plain old uninterested in dating, have turned down many before you, and will turn down many after.
I am sorry but it is so freaking degrading to say something along the lines of, “if you’re a woman and semi-attractive, you’re basically set.” It is also extremely degrading to say that all a woman needs to do is “show up”. For one thing, it implies that women don’t work hard for their relationships. And that you just need to be female, nothing more, for a man to ask you out. For another it implies that the only experiences that matter are of those women who are “semi-attractive” and up. Those are apparently the only experiences some men care… Read more »
@ Erin But do you know how many men I watched pass me by for hotter women? Perhaps I could have phrased it better than “semi-attractive.” However, I still think my point stands. I have never denied that men can be quite shallow with regards to looks. If you’re a woman who’s not considered physically attractive, then you’re SOL with regards to getting male attention. However, that being said, aside from looks, men are not all that picky when it comes to women. Unlike men, an attractive woman doesn’t really need to be confident, outgoing, have great social skills, etc.… Read more »
I dunno, of the unattractive women I know they’re in relationships, the men are not.
I dunno, of the unattractive women I know they’re in relationships, the men are not.
Interesting.
I guess that only further proves my point!
And I know many unattractive men in relationships and in relationships with much more beautiful women. Rarely do you see a very attractie men with a more plain women. Much more often you seen reguarly to plain men with attractive women….. or perhaps..perhaps we both see our experiences through the filter we believe in.
Funny how Archy’s experience further proves your point for you Bay Area Guy…and my experiences? Do they not matter as much? Only Archy’s or other men that coincide what you already believe is true.
My anecdotal evidence is probably only true for some areas. I’m sure others can make a similar claim of women being single, which seems to be true more so in the city. I am in a rural area with more men which may explain most of it.
Take all of our experiences, mix together, and that’d probably be the truth.
“Rarely do you see a very attractie men with a more plain women.”
I’ve seen quite a few but maybe our ideas of attraction differ?
Agree with both your commens here.
I’ve been racking my brain but I’m coming up empty on how someone could ever write a guide on these experiences, they vary so much that they could only be applicable in a very basic form and they differ between cultures, subcultures (geeks, preps, etc), ages, city vs country vs remote location, etc.
Just out of curiosity, I suggest people post what type of area they live in with their experience, I live in a rural farming area of 20k people.
I’d like to know about the social status or occupations of these “plain men” with more attractive women. I’m guessing they have a high social status of a high income occupation. That seems to be the case when I see this situation with the women I work with and on my facebook feed.
“I dunno, of the unattractive women I know they’re in relationships, the men are not.”
Numbers wise, this doesn’t make sense, Archy. If more women are in relationships than than men, they have to be in a relationship with someone. The men with whom they’re in relationships …are they robots? Is it a harem/sister wives situation? Are the *attractive* women then being denied relationships? But yeah, men on here are constantly complaining about how women deny their experiences. It’s a legit complaint. But you’re also denying ours.
@Aya, who says the number of attractive men and women are the same? I dunno what your argument is meant to be about, I’m not saying attractive women aren’t in relationships. I’m saying of the unattractive people I know, females are usually dating, males usually are not. I also know a few attractive women who are single as they are very busy with their lives, who knows the exact number but from my experience my ugly female friends have partners, my ugly male friends do not. The males are also shy usually which is half the problem as shy men… Read more »
I believe you, it’s just that if all these ugly men don’t have partners, then there must be a bunch of women who who don’t have partners too–whether they’re attractive or not. There are obviously women out there without partners if there are men out there without partners. For whatever reason.
My guess is it’s partly to do with location, eg town vs city vs out in the middle of nowhere. There are towns here with 6-10x or more men to women, my town I think has slightly more men (55-45 or maybe 60:40) but in the city’s like Sydney I think it reverses where there are more women so there are plenty of single women there. Another aspect is that the ugly guys I know tend to be shy + low self-esteem, and seeing as men do the majority of asking out that means they’re triply fucked, hard to hit… Read more »
Bay Area Guy, this argument seems to come down to, “your pain isn’t as great as mine” or “what you deal with doesn’t matter compared to what *I* have to go through.” And that thought mentality is so degrading toward women. The thing that gets me is you don’t even seem to understand how you are being degrading to begin with. It is not that men have it harder in dating all around the board. Though men certainly have it harder in the initial approach since the expectation is greater for you. But this does not mean that men collectively… Read more »
Just show up? That is so incredibly insulting. So no woman ever is special to any man? She just has to have a vagina and a base level of prettiness. Gross. No wonder men are getting rejected. I wouldn’t give a man who thought like that the time of day if he was the most handsome, richest, talented, greatest in bed man on earth. Oh, the privilege to be someone’s moldy bread (directly stated in the comments in Nerdlove’s article). Please. Sure, even if I were less attractive, I could probably walk into a bar and ask around for sex… Read more »
I’m not picky about women, but it doesnt mean all she got to do is being pretty and having a vagina. What i mean is i really dont care for her social skills, like confidence, have many friends, good sense of humour. Sure, all of it makes interesting women, but its not what make me fall in love to woman. I dont know, i can have sexual attraction to super gergoreous girl without really known her, i can have sex with her. But to fall in love is different matter. Its like i have this emotional connection, that’s got nothing… Read more »
“Just show up? That is so incredibly insulting. So no woman ever is special to any man? She just has to have a vagina and a base level of prettiness. Gross.” Why do you ask if no woman is ever special? I believe he is referring to being somewhat attractive and someone will probably ask you out. If you are female, and attractive, yes it will spark interest and probably get you asked out. Some people use dating as a way to getting to know the person, I get this feeling you want men to befriend the woman first before… Read more »
@ Erin I have interpreted this to mean that it isn’t looks men aren’t picky about but everything else that men compromise on in favor of a good looking women. Do you honestly think that’s a positive nod for women? Do you really think it feels good that a woman doesn’t have to be anything but sexy or hot or pretty for a man to pursue her? Yes, I do. She’s at least getting action, unlike your average guy. Believe me, most men would KILL to have women go for them just for their looks. It would certainly relieve the… Read more »
IT’S STILL NOT A PRIVILEGE IF IT FEELS LIKE SHIT. Why do guys dismiss that, answer me? Why do they not understand that having the ability to get casual sex from someone who doesn’t respect you and that you find gross is NOT A PRIVILEGE. I’d much rather sit home and masturbate than have dangerous, unsatisfying sex.
The reason guys dismiss it when women say it is because women dismiss when guys say it.
It sets up a weird balance where something is a male privilege regardless of how much damage it may do to men but if she slightest bit of damage is being done to women then that’s enough to render it as not a female privilege.
It sets up a weird balance where something is a male privilege regardless of how much damage it may do to men but if the slightest bit of damage is being done to women then that’s enough to render it as not a female privilege.
What he said.
Agreed, Erin take notice of this, when people are saying women are denying female privilege they mean this. There are negatives you can find in male privilege, eg men have the privilege in to be a soldier all aspects of the military however they also get conscripted far more. Women can get casual sex easier, but it can be dangerous and not what all women want. Privilege can be seen as good or bad depending on the person, there are positives, there are negatives, doesn’t change the fact that it’s something the other gender doesn’t really get. Aya, why do… Read more »
I don’t really understand what Danny said to be honest. And I don’t agree that “privilage” can be seen as good and bad because the very definition of “privilage” has nothing to do with anything bad. I am sick of hearing about “male privilage” and “female privilage” to be honest. I think that modern society came up with these terms to hate on the things that the other gender struggles with and allows a dismissive attitude towards those thigns when vocalized. I think that attaching “privilage” to either a female or male experience is degrading to both. I again have… Read more »
Yeah the privilege debates often don’t end well, only suggested you look at it to show you a female privilege being discussed from an earlier comment. I dunno if I want casual sex to be easier, I’d rather finding love be easier:P It’d be nice to be loved, wanted, AND have good sex and I think casual sex is more of a fill in like having a snack for dinner instead of a full meal. I agree that casual sex is only one aspect, it’s a benefit that women can get more but one that they don’t particularly want in… Read more »
Because many guys will literally pay to have sex with someone they find gross who doesn’t respect them, i.e. prostitution. EVEN if they feel like shit afterwards.
How is this NOT a privilege?
Is it privilege that men use to be the only ones to work even though some thought working was shit?
You only think it makes things easier for women because *you* personally qualify sex over everything else. But most women don’t think that way! Most women don’t want to just be wanted for sex! I don’t understand why you don’t get this. I don’t understand why you think because *you* qualify sex higher than love or anything else that women should. Or that because you qualify sex higher that means it’s the right way for everyone to qualify it the same way. If a woman wants love and respect and a deeper relationship (and the majority of women do) ,… Read more »
Erin, dont dare you generalize that men only want sex from women. Dont dare you. You said women want relationship over sex, and thats also what men do. At least thats what i (and most of my friends ) do. When i said i want to asking out a woman, its because i want to have a girlfriend, a lover, not just casual sex partner. When i have difficulties pursuing women, im depressed not because of i’m not getting laid, its because i’m alone and dont have someone i can be in emotional and romatics relationship. You said dont dare… Read more »
@ Erin: I don’t, for one moment, imagine that “we” know much at all about how most women really view sex. First of all, we imagine on these threads that all women and all men actually represent all men and all women. What is closer to the rt truth is that we are talking about white men and women of comparatively similar world views. So the biology you speak of as representational of everyone isn’t. Women have sex for all, kinds of reasons and love, connection are only two of hundreds of those reasons. I believe that most women want… Read more »
Ogwriter, I do agree that women have sex for all kinds of reasons. But just because women are having sex doesn’t mean they are satisified or even semi-nourished or even happy. Like we said, they have sex for all kinds of reasons. I do think a majority of women aren’t happy to have causual sex as men are still even in the 21st century. I also don’t understand why why you think Black or Latina women wouldn’t be interested in a conversation about body issues. Especially since the media doesn’t really do a great job of portraying Black and Latina… Read more »
Many of the body/self esteem blogs, etc I see n read have a lot of black women such as “The Body Is Not an Apology” on facebook. Body image affects EVERYONE, male and female, all races, even kids.
John, excuse me but where did I generalize that men *only* want sex from women? You are pointing to the wrong person! I never said men only want sex. You want to point someone out for generalizing that men want casual sex? How about you look to Bay Area Guy? I don’t think men only want sex from women. I do think that when a man says that women have “female privilege” because some women can have casual sex more easily, then they are infact prioritizing sex over other things regarding dating and relationships. Does that mean that men only… Read more »
I think it’s more about having privilege SHOULD they decide to use it, like some of the male privileges such as higher chance of being a boss should he decide to climb the ladder so high. It’s a benefit you get simply because of your gender in a world where your gender is in high desirability for that position, such as a boss for men, or casual sex for women (or positions in child care for women, military n violent occupations for men, etc)
Who is going to get further in life? The gender that has more financial opportunities to be successful and taken seriously or the gender that more easily acquires careless, meaningless sex with people that don’t even respect her? Gee that’s a tough one!
By what means do you define getting further in life? The person who earns 500k a year, or the person who has 5 kids at home and LOVES being a mother/father? You’re also comparing only 1 privilege to another privilege. How about the female privilege of being 4-6x less likely to die from violence, and less likely overall to suffer violence than a male? Is that worth more than a slight advantage with financial opportunities? How about much better health-care awareness, better ability to form social bonds and have support vs the men’s finances? The most common mistake I see… Read more »
THe comparison wasn’t career vs family. It was the “privilage” you personally described men as having finacially and workwise vs the “privilage” you believe women have regarding the ease with wich they might be able to get casual sex. And that’s right. I am only comparing 1 privilage to the other. I am comparing the exact prvilages you referenced. Who is more likely to be sexually abused, battered or molested? Who is more likely to be sexually trafficked? Usually women suffer more sexual abuse than men do. Although men certainly suffer from sexual abuse as well. You made a distinct… Read more »
Sexual abuse victims usually live, already they’re better off than those that die. They get a CHANCE at life vs those who are killed, so yes there is privilege in women with avoiding murder vs being sexually abused. Would you rather die or be sexually abused? Would everyone rather die than be sexually abused? I know of plenty of men n women who go on to lead productive lives after abuse, although of course with more difficulty. Someone who is murdered has their life stolen. But when you say who’s going to get further in life you only take into… Read more »
Did you read Bay Area Guy’s comments regarding casual sex and how he believes women have it easier in dating because it’s easier for women in general to have casual sex? And I find it mystifying the way you continue to interpret this as meaning that I *only* care about sex. My whole point that women have it easier in dating because of easier access to casual sex is not that sex is the only important thing. The reason why that makes it easier for women in dating is because greater options means more advantages. So yes, perhaps most women… Read more »
“I do think that when a man says that women have “female privilege” because some women can have casual sex more easily, then they are infact prioritizing sex over other things regarding dating and relationships. Does that mean that men only want sex…no. It does mean that they are prioritizing casual sex at the expense of other things, even love and respect. They think women have it easier because casual sex comes easier to them in some cases” Erin, please. That’s why i said your’e generalizing us men and your’e degrading men. We say your’e having privileges its NOT because… Read more »
Every man is different, some prioritize casual sex, others a relationship. It’s a very easy concept to understand. Some will accept casual sex all the while looking for a relationship to bide the time n combat loneliness.
@ Erin Okay, let’s break this down one step at a time. If a woman wants love and respect and a deeper relationship (and the majority of women do) , it doesn’t matter if she can get sex easily. Spare me. Tell that to the growing number of involuntarily celibate men out there, including several guys I know. This time, I’ll use the metaphor of two starving people. Both people are within the vicinity of an exclusive restaurant. Person A is granted entrance into the restaurant. She is only served one basic, greasy appetizer. It’s not quite the nourishing, multi-course… Read more »
I think there’s a difference in perspective here between two sides, and that’s why the arguments keep missing each other. And, I think there are some logical leaps happening here that happen when people are tapping into pain and anger. First, it looks like there’s a leap here from “easier” to “easy.” If there is one gender who has it worse than another when it comes to rejection, that doesn’t mean one has all the advantages and the other has no advantages. It’s always going to be relative. If you say my people have it easier than your people, and… Read more »
Bay Area Guy: “Spare me. Tell that to the growing number of involuntarily celibate Bay Area Guy: “Spare me. Tell that to the growing number of involuntarily celibate men out there, including several guys I know.” What am I suppose to be sparing you? When I read that Bay Area Guy, when you said, ”Spare me”, that sounded extremely dismissive of the point I was trying to make. Please answer what I am suppose to be sparing you? The truth about how some women view this topic? I also articulated a personal experience of mine that you don’t seem to… Read more »
Wait a minute, you’re going to deny the power of sexuality in a marketplace where the demand for sex in one gender is much higher than the supply of the other and you’re going to tell me there is no power in that?
Funniest comment I’ve read in ages, thank-you.
Laughing at something I said with absolute sincerity in regards to my own experiences as a woman, comes off as belittling. My response was well thought out, sensitive and true to what I know and have experienced. You can laught it all you want. I still mean what I said and take it seriously and it was sincere and heartfelt.
I disagree with the power of 1000 suns. Do you honestly think women have no power with sexuality? Considering that their power of sexuality has successfully been used for espionage, celebrity, desire of MILLIONS, ability to get paid for sexuality, access to casual relationships, etc.
It may not be power you want, but it’s power none the less.
I didn’t say that women had “no power” regarding sexuality. I said that “casual sex” didn’t translate into “power”, especially for *me*. And I know it’s true for many other women as well. We were talking about the ease with which women acquire casual sex from men. We weren’t talking about women using sex for espionage, celebrity status or whatever else you concocted that had nothing to do with the original statement. I am not a spy or a celebrity. I don’t really know about those things. But for me, casual sex isn’t *power*…as a regular, normal woman. What do… Read more »
Sex is used as a weapon in relationships at time, mostly by women. There is power in sex, you yourself may not feel/want that power but it can be power none the less. Casual sex can also be power, the ease of access of casual sex can give a woman quite a bit of power as there are more men desiring casual sex than women as far as I know (I could be wrong of course). Supply n demand basically, she has a more powerful position, and should have more of a choice of partners to sleep with. Casual sex… Read more »
Wait a minute, you’re going to deny the power of sexuality in a marketplace where the demand for sex in one gender is much higher than the supply of the other and you’re going to tell me there is no power in that? Yes, thank you! Erin, I know that YOU and the women you know personally find casual sex to be icky. But whether or not you choose to acquire casual sex, you have that OPTION. You have the OPTION of just sitting back and having members of the opposite sex approach you. Men don’t. Also, I know that… Read more »
You’re pain is greater than mine Bay Area Guy. Your pain is worth more than mine. Everything you experience in dating is worth more consideration than anything I or other women could have experienced. That is ultimately what you really want anyway. Which is why you keep dismissing my comments. I’ve done my best to try to get you guys to see it from the other perspective. That the grass isn’t greener on the other side. But I don’t think you really want to see it. I’m tired of being dismissed and told how much less worthwhile the troubles women… Read more »
“I’m tired of being dismissed and told how much less worthwhile the troubles women face in dating are compared to you.” You dismissed female privilege in casual sex, but are annoyed that others are dismissing your experience? Everyone has a different experience, I guess it begs the question are differing opinions dismissive? How is that comment he made dismissive of you? “By the way, there are plenty of men that easily get casual sex.” But it could be far less men than women I suspect, which is the point. Another point is that even shy women get easier access to… Read more »
You continue to ignore the fact that getting into a RELATIONSHIP is easier for women than it is for men. Let us IGNORE casual sex entirely. Women still have a far easier time finding themselves in relationships. You completely ignored the analogy. I want a girlfriend. I have ZERO interest in casual sex. In fact, I’ve had the opportunity to have casual sex a bunch of times over the past couple months, and I have neither enjoyed it nor been able to perform. I want a relationship with a woman I love. As I said, I don’t have the opportunities… Read more »
But women are also dating in a world where a lot of men don’t exactly what to settle down and usually want to sleep with you as quickly as possible without forming much of a connection. Most men, when they first date you, want it to be pretty casual with little responsibility to you but will push for sex very soon. If you don’t have sex with him, there is always bound to be some woman that will. Of if you don’t have sex with him soon enough, he might think you aren’t interested. And if you have sex too… Read more »
How do you know that you’re not acting like a jerk to some of these women? I’ve known men who consider themselves nice betas but act like total douchebags to women. Objectify, ignore, insult, generalize, stereotype, use them, deny their experiences, whatever. And they actually think that they’re nice guys. They actually think that when they don’t have luck in dating it’s because they’re nice betas. But I do think preferences change when you get older. I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with that. People aren’t as good of a judge of character at 18 as they are at… Read more »
I’ve known men who consider themselves nice betas but act like total douchebags to women.
And I’ve also known guys who are douchebags or male chauvinists, and yet they’ve had great success with women.
Either women really do like a**holes, or perhaps their “misogyny detectors” (to paraphrase Joanna) aren’t as good as they think they are.
For the millionth time, women aren’t all the same. Some like assholes, some like jerks, some like nice guys, some like sweet guys, and there is more than one attribute that makes people attractive. I like nice women, but not all the women I know who are nice are attractive to me. Nice is a good attribute for a friend, and also a lover but I still need sexual attraction, chemistry, etc to truly like someone. From what I’ve seen nice guys tend to fuckup by not being confident enough, being too vague with what they want, and also many… Read more »
“I have known women in relationships for 2 years + where the man still wasn’t sure he was ready for marriage with her.” 2 years? I wouldn’t marry until after 5 years to ensure we’re a match. Why the rush to get married? Why are you viewing her in a better light for wanting to get married earlier than him? Why is that better? I think it’s rushing in to get married before 3 years. It’s not a sign that he sucks at commitment, it’s a sign that her need for marriage is different to his. I’ve heard how men… Read more »
@Archy I’d say you’re spot on with the marriage thing. First of all women take on little risk in marriage. Secondly (and maybe more importantly) women confuse the wedding with the marriage. The wedding is their fairy tale princess fantasy come true and all the romantic fluff that comes with it. Are they really thinking of the hard parts of marriage when they are complaining that the guy doesn’t want to get married? Doubtful. If I was a woman I would not want to be with someone who rushes into marriage or who could be pressured into marriage. A couple… Read more »
This is the kind of denial of privilege that gets shown time and time again. You can’t get a woman to admit that women have privilege when it comes to dating. All of the types of arguments you make in this post are the sort that men are told aren’t legitimate when we try to dispute certain male privileges. So, which is it? The very fact that you’ve had men ask you out in public already gives you infinitely more opportunity than the vast majority of men. I’d wager that at least 90% of men here in the U.S. have… Read more »
Good point.
That isn’t fair Collin. Denial of privilage? What “”privilage” do you think I have? That is so freaking demeaning. And it completely ignores where I clearly said that men certainly have areas of dating that are more difficult. It completely ignores where I said that men certainly have a lot more pressure regarding the initial approach. Yes men certainly have more to contend with there. But that doesn’t mean I have female “privilage”. There are different aspects of dating that men and women struggle with! Why is that hard for you guys to admit? I don’t understand why you don’t… Read more »
Do men have privilege?
I’d say there are privileges for both genders in different aspects of dating, eg easier for a woman to get hit on, less need to ask out others. But then there are other things where men prob get it easier, less stigma for casual sex for instance.
That’s all I have been really saying Archy this entire time. That men and women face different issues in dating. It’s not that men collectively have it more difficult in dating, it’s that men have certain aspects of dating that are harder for them and likewise for women. But it seems like a number of men don’t even want to acknowledge that when I hear statements being made about how much more difficult men specifically have it in dating. And by believing that men specifically have it more difficult in dating, these people that believe that are shutting themselves off… Read more »
Well the problem is already we have 2 women denying females having any privilege in dating, or denying the specific privilege of casual sex. So some of the men are annoyed at the privilege denying.
I’m also wondering whether people are saying dating as the early courtship time, or dating = a relationship, 1 year old, 20 years old, etc.
You women go around and trumpet male privilege left and shout down men who say that not all men have privilege, but when it is suggested that women have privilege in areas you all deny it and get defensive at the very suggestion that women can have privilege.
Whilst you bring up good points Erin, the fact is the vast majority, I’d say 90%+ have NEVER had a woman ask them out, whilst I’m guessing you have and the majority of women have had at least one time where they were asked out. Even women I know who aren’t conventionally attractive or whatever you wanna call it have been asked out whilst pretty decent looking guys, even those with money n status go through life without being asked out. There is a female privilege in being asked out, but that’s not to say women don’t face their own… Read more »
Archy, please go back and read what I wrote. I actually agreed that men have more difficulties regarding the initial approach. But dating isn’t just about the initial approach. But to say that because women aren’t the same as men and don’t pursue men in the fashion that is stereotypically attached to how men pursue women and to call it “female privilage” is flat out degrading. And the fact of the matter is that while you say you know women face their own troubles you clearly don’t consider these troubles as worth as much as what you and other men… Read more »
And being a shy woman can be just as PAINFUL as being a shy men. In what way? I’m willing to bet that shy women have way more romantic opportunities than shy men. Erin, I’m guessing you don’t give as much weight to the initial approach as I do, but at least I think that it’s a HUGE deal. And shy girls don’t have the burden of making an approach, while shy guys are put under constant pressure to do so. With that in mind, I would be interested in hearing how being a shy girl (well, at least an… Read more »
I am guessing yes shy women have more romantic opportunities too. Take 2 similarly attractive people, male n female, who are both shy then the shyness will only really hinder the male as he has to do the asking out to find a partner in the current setup of dating in our society. It’s an overly simple look at it but I do think it works out that shy women have more romantic opportunities.
“In what way?”
In ways very simliar to men. Not being acknowledged, not being talked to, being pased up for hotter more outgoing versions. Not having the courage to talk to, smile or encourage men to talk to her.
Well, okay.
Compared to more attractive or outgoing women, the shy woman has a harder time. No argument from me there.
But compared to a shy man? I’m still not buying it. The shy woman (provided she’s not ugly) can at least hope to be approached or have men initiate things with her.
But if you’re a shy guy, you’re SOL. Shy women at least have the option of not having to approach or initiate. Shy guys don’t have that luxury.
You don’t buy what I’ve said. Why should I buy what you say? We can all sit here and commiserate about our own situations or we can try to take steps in aknowledging our own situations in combination with the possibility that the view from the other side isn’t as green as we may have fault and recongnize the different ways men and women struggle. I know which way I perfer. But that can’t be accomplished if you are automatically going to “not buy” what I’m saying because your ability to only see it your experiences through your own filtered… Read more »
But if you got all the answers Bay Area Guy and I don’t have any of the answers, then you tell me what the solution is. The solution is for American women, and feminists in particular, to truly mean equality when they say it. Not just equality in the boardroom or workplace, but in other aspects of life as well. That includes dating. That means doing a bit more asking out. That means maybe paying for a date or two. If women are upset about all the unwanted advances and attention from men, or upset about how a growing number… Read more »
Okay, yes, lets have “equality” as you personally have defined it..one problem with that…not everyone defines “equality” as you do. And not everyone wants to take all the feminine and masculine differences out of the other gender. I like doing stereptypically womanly/housewifey things for my boyfriend. I like cooking him dinner. I like doing special things for him. And I like when he opens doors for me and treats me like a girl. Should I be ashamed of that? And are you kidding me about women paying for a date or two? LOL. Lots of women do that already. It’s… Read more »
The lack of dating advice for males in his comment alone doesn’t mean he only thinks women should change. Did it ever occur to you that he only generally knows what can help women to change, and it’s up to women to suggest back what men need to change? That’s pretty much half of my comments, I say the male perspective hoping women will give the other side to bring balance, I haven’t got a clue of what men can change apart from be more confident, and be respectful in your approaches.
And not everyone wants to take all the feminine and masculine differences out of the other gender. I like doing stereptypically womanly/housewifey things for my boyfriend. I like cooking him dinner. I like doing special things for him. And I like when he opens doors for me and treats me like a girl. Should I be ashamed of that? You shouldn’t be ashamed, but it’s something worth thinking about. All I’m saying is that if American women want to proclaim their independence and rise through the ranks, great. But then don’t expect to be given the chivalrous treatment or treated… Read more »
“Because a woman isn’t going to care if he doesn’t approach her. She isn’t even going to notice him”
not really, my ex gf is the one who ask me out, and no, we didn’t have casual sex, instead we went to dinner and movies ( asking a guy out is not all about casual sex ).
I’m not approached her and she noticed me. Imagine if she didnt ask me and i approached another girl. Whose loosing there? my ex gf, not me.
And sorry Erin, the way you say ““Because a woman isn’t going to care if he doesn’t approach her. She isn’t even going to notice him” means a woman is never attracted and having a crush on a guy that not approached her. My experience with hearing from some women tell me otherwise. They often have a crush on a guy that do not approached them, even guy that don’t noticed them) , and they confused about how to make those guys noticed their feelings . Maybe you never have that kind of experience ( have those high school crush… Read more »
Archy, considering the fact that he previously told me that he doesn’t buy what I say, I don’t think he is particularly looking for me to give him advice about how men can change. Almost everything I’ve said about my experiences as a woman on this topic as been underminded and dismissed as being of less value than what men experience.
Bay Area Guy: “You shouldn’t be ashamed, but it’s something worth thinking about. All I’m saying is that if American women want to proclaim their independence and rise through the ranks, great. But then don’t expect to be given the chivalrous treatment or treated like a “lady” either. It’s a simple matter of wanting to have your cake and eat it too. ” So wanting respect and equality in the work place means I can’t have doors openned for me and treated traditionally like a “lady”? And that’s inequality???? I don’t get that. I don’t see what my work life… Read more »
John: “not really, my ex gf is the one who ask me out, and no, we didn’t have casual sex, instead we went to dinner and movies ( asking a guy out is not all about casual sex ).” I iagree that asking a guy out isn’t all about casual sex. I didn’t say that at all. I am curious, what was the paying situation for the dinner and movie? John: “I’m not approached her and she noticed me. Imagine if she didnt ask me and i approached another girl. Whose loosing there? my ex gf, not me.” You both… Read more »
I think part of the dismissiveness, is defensiveness in some commenters here. Just out of curiosity, would you stand in front of your man in a fight and defend him for equality? And what gender roles are used, opening doors alone or the extra ones like the man paying more in a relationship? The part that makes me curious about those who want equality in the workplace yet still be treated like a lady is that some women (not you) have told me the man should pay, and that it’s romantic….but if the man is paying than why shouldn’t he… Read more »
The part that makes me curious about those who want equality in the workplace yet still be treated like a lady is that some women (not you) have told me the man should pay, and that it’s romantic….but if the man is paying than why shouldn’t he earn more money in the workplace? Wasn’t the idea of paying men more in workplaces born from their duty to the family household in earning? That women would have a man to pay for their stuff so she didn’t need as much money? That’s the problem with keeping some gender roles, and it’s… Read more »
Erin, Look, the fish aren’t biting like you want and for that I apologize, but for the sake of moving this conversation forward, please just pretend that we gave you all the validation and emotional mirroring you’re demanding from us and let’s proceed. Can you do that, please? Thanks. The dating experiences of women are obviously not perfectly uniform and exist on a continuum. I knew a woman with burns on her face and scars on her arms who was probably infrequently approached by men (relative to most) for reasons that I don’t need to explain. A large subset of… Read more »
William: “…please just pretend that we gave you all the validation and emotional mirroring you’re demanding from us and let’s proceed. Can you do that, please? Thanks.” I’m sorry but I can’t do that. That would be insincere to the conversation. I also consider it highly patronizing on your behalf that you’ve asked me to “pretend” that I was specifically “validated” so that we could move on and you could ignore and gloss over the points I’ve made in respect to the conversation. I am infact stunned that you even asked such a thing. I am stunned that you thought… Read more »
Erin, Too many conversations on the GMP that start off discussing men’s issues become hijacked and we end up focusing on women’s issues. From the looks of it, no matter how many qualifications are made to our points you are not going to stop whining and we will never actually have the opportunity to discuss the circumstances that make men more trauma-prone in the face of rejection and what to do about it. I want to discuss the mechanisms by which rejection triggers self-doubt in men and I would seriously wire you cash if there were a way to get… Read more »
I know when someone isn’t open to hear what I am saying. It’s when they use words like “whining” to attach to another adult in a conversation. I get it William. I’m whining and what i have to say is of little worth to you. But just because you see it that way, that’s not how I see it. I am not even ignoring men’s issues in this discussion. Have you actually read my posts? Have you read the parts where I’ve said men have more difficulty in the initial approach when it comes to dating? Have you seen where… Read more »
“My fear is that by men believing and saying that men have it more difficulty in dating, they close themselves off from women and the issues women face and that men loose empathy for women and only thing about what best self serves them.” They’re actually playing the victim role a bit there and yeah it does close people off assuming they have it worse. Both genders have some areas they are better, others worse at. I think the guys are collectively trying to say they’re worse off at approaching, which is the same as you are saying, some might… Read more »
“But to say that because women aren’t the same as men and don’t pursue men in the fashion that is stereotypically attached to how men pursue women and to call it “female privilage” is flat out degrading.” I hope you spark up and tell feminists the same about male privilege. In this case I am using privilege in the form of both men and women have privilege, in different areas. Women have the privilege of being asked out more, but that doesn’t mean overall they’re winning the dating privilege game. The privilege term itself is loaded, maybe change it to… Read more »
Right, it is much harder for men at the approach and about equal in actual dating, but you and most women seem to fully discount the approach. Tell me something. If you can get off square zero whenever you like (as a woman) and I, as a man, am stuck on square zero and cannot get off, it doesn’t matter if we both have the same degree of difficulty on squares 1-6 because I CANNOT GET OFF SQUARE ZERO while you can.
HI Collin, I have said several times in this thread that men certianly have it more difficult in the initial approach. Did you not see me say that?
As for the comments about who can get sex and who can’t, please refer to my comments to Bay Area Guy.
I believe he may be referring to dismissing the casual sex privilege as well. One gender gets that option far more easily than the other, call it privilege, call it whatever you want. I don’t think the majority of women use that privilege but still that doesn’t negate the fact that it’s still an option that is used quite often by some. Maybe option is a better word? Something that can be a positive or a negative depending on your values but isn’t as accessible to the other gender.
So the rest of it is entirely irrelevant. You just can’t accept it; you really can’t.
Archy, I can agree that casual sex can be more of an “option” for women but I don’t agree with calling it a “privilege”.
I have no clue at this point what you are talking about Collin. But telling me I can’t accept it is a strange thing to say to someone you are having a conversation with..it’s pretty meaningless because you really aren’t expressing your view point very well by saying something so over simplified and generalized.
Well that’s good enough for me, acknowledging it as an option. That’s all the guys here wanted I believe, to have that point acknowledged regardless of terminology.
You keep suggesting that I’m talking about casual sex when I’m not. Women have a much easier time with dating for the very reason that they have a much easier time with initiation. My point is that if I have to ask out 1,000 women in order to get into a relationship and you have to ask out ZERO men, you have immense privilege over me. It is that simple.
I would definitely say it’s a privilege to sit there and wait for people to approach you then pick and choose at your leisure than it is to be the person to (1) pick out a person, (2) get the courage to approach/be ready for rejection, (3) come up with something interesting to say/an opening line (4) go talk to the person.
I don’t know why you ladies just cannot admit these things to yourselves.
Would it be better not to do any of those things? I mean, maybe the better approach is no approach at all….perhaps a guy could just do some activity or sport (i.e., biking, scuba diving, or frisbee football) that he really loves or enjoys with a bunch of friends…just have fun and hang out….that positive energy you exude with your guy friends is infectious and very attractive….other people, including women, will be drawn to you naturally….
http://www.meetup.com has activities that gather like-minded people together to have fun…and maybe more!
Drawn to you naturally? So wouldn’t one of them have to ask you out still?
How many times does every man in the world have to say that this won’t work. WE WILL STILL HAVE TO APPROACH THE WOMAN. Great, I’m out at meetups with women. I’m hanging out and having a good time, and there is a woman I am interested in maybe getting to know better. That’s awesome! Now what? I MUST ask her out.
Also, I might be able to offer and answer to the above question: Women get asked alot more. If you’re being asked out a few times a day, one person turning you down really is just another fish in the sea. If you’re a guy… women don’t tend to ask. This isn’t just me, I’ve had it confirmed by a whole bunch of male and female friends.
I think all most men want here is for women to acknowledge their privilege in this particular respect and to not dismiss or reframe the psychological difficulties associated with always having to initiate encounters and endure rejection while never having overt interest shown to you as insignificant. Will this happen, probably not?
@Williiam: What you name is one of the consistent themes and wishes from men on this site to women on this site; please admit to your power and control when you have it.It almost imposible to have forward movemnt in these discussions beacuse women generally don’t /won’t own up when they use power and it hurts people.
I’m a bit bothered by the assumption that women only judge men based on “lofty” criteria such as personality and men only judge women based on outward appearance. It’s sexist.
Also, is it so unreasonable to have some physical requirements when entering a physical relationship? I might have the most wonderful personality in the world, but if you’re just not attracted to me then there isn’t much hope for a relationship.
Quite true, but we run into many many many MANY women who seem to say how looks really don’t matter at all. I think it is the height of bullshit to have tons of women suggesting that looks don’t play a huge role. Does any man here have experience with a woman who found you unattractive, but she gave you the time of day and ended up liking you despite not finding you attractive?
And, if you think about it, it’s not very flattering to their dates, boyfriends, or husbands for women to say they don’t care about looks. Imagine your girlfriend telling you that she doesn’t care how you look, she loves you anyway. Or she says, don’t worry, I never cared about looks. Ouch. Besides, how could a woman be heterosexual (for example) and NOT care about the physical side? Isn’t she going to be physically attracted by the man’s body, including the way he looks? Otherwise, she would also be equally attracted to women. She would never use the word “handsome”… Read more »
I’m demisexual and pansexual, attracted to all kind of bodies. I like a certain aesthetic disposition, but not a certain sex better. Maybe my preference is more likely to be cis men, but it’s far from them only.
When did men become so sensitive to rejection? Don’t get me wrong, I have been there. but one of the reasons women don’t ask men out is because they DON’T want ( and don’t have to ) to deal with rejection. I was taught early on that romance and sex was a numbers game and a certain amount of rejection was a part of the process. Do I think that women should share some of the rejection burden, hell yeah! Do I think men that who do feel bad when rejected, are less than masculine, hell no.
Greg, the question you need to ask in answering wether you live up to your standard for not being superficial is how much of the looks you can actually get are you willing to forsake for more inner beauty. If you do not actually get any offers from very attractive women, emphasizing inner qualities is hardly saintly. Now if you DO in fact get that how much are you willing to trade of so to speak? Are you willing to drop a really gorgeous woman with a nice personality for someone you find ugly but with an amazing one? Or… Read more »
Could we try to prevent this thread from becoming another self-help guide for men by women for at least 24 hours?
Another explanation could be that nowadays women have more going on for them outside of relationships while (hetero) men are still heavily defined by their “success with women.” A lot of books out there today saying that women don’t really need men in order to be happy (I agree), but not many books saying that men don’t need women. You would be accused of misogyny for suggesting such a thing, in fact. Sure, there’s still a lot of pressure for women to “find a man,” and a lot of judgment about them if they don’t, but with men today there… Read more »
On another note, I would be very interested in an article that actually does a good job at highlighting the hardships women face in singles/dating life, or challenges some of the things I’ve said.
And no, Nerdlove’s “dating power” article does not qualify, as it didn’t actually refute the so-called “myths,” but rather provided rationalizations for them.
I always find these discussions regarding dating power interesting.
Many women and feminists always like to go on about “male privilege” and how men have countless blind spots when it comes to the sexism women must endure.
And yet on this specific topic, I can’t help but notice that women have serious blind spots with regards to how easy they have it in dating compared to men.
As Danny once said, it doesn’t feel so good when YOU’RE subjected to the whole “you’re all privileged” routine.
If it’s true that women are less bothered by rejection, this means that women DON’T assume that all men are only after sex. They DON’T assume that any man will try to have sex with anyone available. They must recognize that men actually do actually make distinctions and have some discrimination in their preferences. (I don’t mean discrimination in a bad sense, necessarily. In the sense of “being discriminating.”) If a woman thinks every man is desperate for sex, and a man rejects her, then that would be a deep blow to her self-worth – if men chase after anyone,… Read more »
“if men chase after anyone, but not me, then what does that say about me? How ugly I must be to be rejected by men, who we all know are totally indiscriminate.” Very true. I also disagree that rejection doesn’t hurt just as much for women. It could also be that women don’t show it due to pride. It’s humiliating to be rejected by a man. If you tell people how hurt you are, it’s so embarrassing. Not to mention that talking about it a lot makes it seem like there’s something wrong with you. Maybe you’re too slutty, ugly,… Read more »
Hank in another thread you mentioned you were born in 1945 so you are basically my father’s age. I think it can be said that you grew up in a time when women were actually thrilled and excited when asked out on a date by a man. I’d be willing to bet you didn’t experience even a quarter of the rejections from women that the majority of posters here have. You also grew up in a time when men would give women engagement rings without being given a list expectations for the ring. Things have changed. Men go through a… Read more »
Jimbo, I think you are right that women probably have more expectations regarding their romantic relationships then previous generations. Sometimes that’s good and sometimes it’s bad. There is pressure on men to be this perfect hybird of masculine energy with perfect understanding of his female partner. But I also think men have different expectations regarding their romantic relationships then previous generations as well. Do you think your grandmother was being asked to swallow your grandfather’s jizz, watch porn, do anal or dress up in porno-fantasy like costumes for his pleasure? All things that men regularly now request in the bedroom..that… Read more »
“Women often have to tow a tough line of what is their fault and responsbility and what isn’t. And honestly, often women take greater responsbility for relationships that don’t go well than I have seen men do. Women ofen internalize it as a failure of her feminity in ways I don’t see men do to themselves.” What’s interesting is I often see the reverse as being true, where the man takes on more responsibility, where women are “always right” and men cannot argue with his woman because the final say is hers, they submit to her rule even when often… Read more »
“What’s interesting is I often see the reverse as being true, where the man takes on more responsibility, where women are “always right” and men cannot argue with his woman because the final say is hers, they submit to her rule even when often she is wrong.” For me, this is more of a tv projection of relationships then what actually happens in real life. On TV, in a lot of sitcoms, the women are often portrayed as being “right” and the “smart” ones. But in real life? Rarely do I actually see that play out in real life relationships.… Read more »
Yeah I think TV influences some relationships, quite a few male friends of mine tell me the women are always right. It’s called Happy wife, happy life, they basically let her be right to try keep the peace.
And yep the burying of feelings happens all too much sadly, did it myself for a long time.
I agree that TV can influence relationships. I also agree that pornography influences people’s sexuality and thus their relationships. If you agree with tv influencing relationships then I am surey ou agree regarding pornography and sexuality.
But that’s not the point I was making at this time. I said that I find the perception that women are always right to be found more in TV in real life.
Porn can influence relationships, we’ve only disagreed on the level of influence. I think with TV it builds upon existing stereotypes and reinforces them. And of course for each person the level of influence differs.
Come to Australia, I can point you to plenty of people who think the woman is always right, “Happy wife, happy life”.
Porn affects some people and not others. In fact, I’m dating a guy who has troubles in bed due to to porn. This was *his* diagnosis, not mine. Too much porn, and not enough real life experience. Luckily for me, he’s ok (for now) with me getting sex elsewhere–and I do. Sure, I want to with him, but it’s going to take a little while for him to rewire his brain. In the meantime, other people are there to satisfy my needs and I’m very grateful for that. If I were on the other side of it (I think Archy… Read more »
Luckily porn just makes me want a gf even more and I have no intention of looking at porn if I have a partner I want. Do you ever have issues with jealousy?