This comment was from Bob on the post Cover Me, I’m Going In: SI Swimsuit Edition 2012
Folks, EVERY image is photoshopped. From the cover to the tiniest contributor pic. They are ALL photoshopped. NO waxer plucked out all of her hairs, someone like me painted them out, or at least the ones that were missed. Her nipples were removed too, and wherever that suit (whatever there is of it) had an uncomfortable intersection with her body, a retoucher like me smoothed it out. Her hands were photoshopped, they would be bluish compare to the rest of her otherwise. Go ahead, look at your hands under real bright light. Yours are bluer than your arms too. Her hairline, her teeth, her fingernails, her legs. IT’S ALL RETOUCHING. Her breasts? Don’t get me started. The fact that someone thought they weren’t photoshopped is a compliment to someone like me, not her. It just means they were NICELY photoshopped. No disrespect to her, no body part of any one of us is magazine ready when in front of the camera. Not you, not me, not her.
Two thoughts: One, I feel better knowing that those are not ‘real’ women. Second: Is the fact that real women aren’t quite so perfect going to result in horrible shocks for guys when they see real women undressed? I seem to remember that John Ruskin was so appalled by pubic hair on his brand new wife (he’d only ever seen paintings/statues of idealized women), that he was never able to consummate his marriage. Let’s hope today’s men are smarter than that…
One, the images are manipulated, but even models and skinny girls are real women. Two, lack of perfection doesn’t result in horrible shocks for guys, any more than women are horribly shocked when real guys don’t look like Brad Pitt, Ryan Gosling, or those guys from the Twilight movies. I credit both genders with the ability to appreciate both idealized beauty, and whatever beauty they’re fortunate enough to have in front of them.
Yeah, but you’ve got a snazzy fedora, so you’re a step ahead of the average Joe. 😉 lol
But thanks for pointing out that though the images might be manipulated, the women who posed for them are still real women.
The funniest part for me is that I got called a feminist! An internet feminist! More evidence that the definition of feminist is ……….what the hell IS a feminist? Ha!
This is why I like nude beaches, pride and party parades, skinny dipping, walking around naked, and people who are comfortable with their bodies–because people get to see that there’s a wide variety of bodies, and hopefully find beauty in more than just one type or a fake picture. I’ve become more visual as I’ve grown up, so I understand why you would want to look at pictures and fantasize. I also can’t be with my partner or on a date every single time I get horny, so they’re a good go-to. I also know that I’ve always found that… Read more »
Much respect Aya, Thank-you!
This! Totally this!
Great post! I would add one thing to where you said, “I DO hate hypcrites who on one hand tell women to be classy and cover up, and on the other hand, drool over these images.” The corollary to that is that the annoying hypocrisy of a woman who says sex and fantasies are great, but being turned on by an image is wrong.
(Hears the voice of the leader of the Riffs.)
I can dig it.
Agreed! I wish there was more exposure to real bodies in a non-sexualized way. I think it would be great for everyone’s self-image and views of people in general.
Just thought everyone might enjoy this video. It’s a spoof.
https://vimeo.com/34813864
I enjoyed it Sang. 🙂
Wife: Those are fake! Me: Yeah? What’s your point? I happen to subscribe to SI. Do I especially look forward to this issue? Nope, not why I get the magazine. Does this issue somehow make me cry out in protest? Nope. They’re pictures of women in bathing suits, well , most of the time. Do I look? You betcha. I’m married with kids. Happily married, for over a decade. The sexiest woman I know is the one I sleep with every night. So what does this all say about me? How about I don’t mind looking at pictures of women… Read more »
“Sometimes a banana is just a banana.” – until you stick it up a….
Sorry, sorry…just trying to add a bit of humor into the discussion.
…tailpipe!
I’m not falling for no banana in the tailpipe. (Name that movie.)
Beverly Hills Cop?
Ding! Ding! Ding!
That was it. And if I remember correctly, the actor who gave Axel Foley the banana was Damon Wayans, before he was known for anything else. One of those bit parts you have no reason to notice at the time but see years later and realize it was someone before they were famous.
Dear Daddy, When I grow up I want to be an Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition cover model. Why? Because I want the whole world of “sports” to have “happy” thoughts about me when they see my picture. Just like you do when it comes in the mail. And like you said, I’ll make lots of money and then I can get lots of candy. Love, your little girl A few years later… Dear World, Why does my pre-teen daughter keep posting sexy pictures of herself on Facebook? Why does she dress so sexy in pushup bras and super tight clothing… Read more »
Lol, lol, lol, lol Oh this is priceless!!! LOL, LOL, LOL,. 🙂
I second Debra. 🙂
Dear Daddy, When I grow up I want to be an Internet feminist. Why? Because I want the world of men to respect me for my mind and not be physically attracted to me unless I’ve already enthusiastically consented to them noticing my body. Like the Internet feminists say, when a man thinks a woman is sexy without her consent, that’s the first step toward rape. Love, your little girl Dear World, Why does my pre-teen daughter seem fearful of men? Why does she hold models and Hooters waitresses in contempt, even though her mom and I have tried to… Read more »
Can you stop with the anti-feminist vitriol?
Lol, lol, lol, lol Oh this is priceless!!! LOL, LOL, LOL,. 🙂
So, the caricature of men that Joss painted didn’t strike you as anti-men vitriol – only the post that used the same tone and turned the tables?
Wow.
I was the one that said wow, and I wasn’t too happy with either of them actually. Because 1) the information in both is inaccurate, and I also don’t much like secondary snark as a response to primary snark. Snark for snark can leave the whole world blind. Sorry Gandhi, I hate paraphrasing, but I had to.
Maybe I read Joss’s differently than you, but no. And yours came off as much more specific. Maybe it bothered me more because 1) I’m a feminist and I did not go through that process you so snarkily described to become a feminist. I actually became a feminist because I realized that the gender stereotypes of (specifically men) that our society paints are extremely harmful to both genders and are frankly wrong. and 2) because Joss’s actually rang true for me. Not like with my Dad or anything, that would be weird, but because I learned by the time I… Read more »
“I am also still irritated because I can’t get through a single comment section on this website without some snide remark about feminists and as I identify as a feminist, yes I take those remarks personally.” Blame the bad-gynocentric feminists, they’ve poisoned the name and the egalitarians have to work at healing the movement in peoples minds. Many of us are irritated that feminism can so easily be hijacked and used for non-egalitarian purposes, get called misogynist for daring to criticize the church of feminism. Many men learn from youth that the way to get attention is to gain power… Read more »
Awesome insight. If it rhymed it would make a great bumper sticker for egalitarianism. 🙂
2) because Joss’s actually rang true for me. Not like with my Dad or anything, that would be weird, but because I learned by the time I was 10 that all I had to do to get attention and be wanted as a woman was to act sexy or show cleavage. Which isn’t a fatherly thing, but more of a cultural thing. I actually agree with what you’re getting at there, but Joss’s comment didn’t frame it as a cultural thing, it framed it as a fatherly thing. I’m a father of daughters, so I took that a little personally,… Read more »
Is it anti-feminism, or is it anti-some parts of feminism? Quite a lot of the anti-feminist stuff I see is anti-gynocentric feminism and actually seems to fit into the egalitarian feminist idea. People would do well to understand why Marcus is upset, especially at laying responsibility on the women as well and women’s magazines (both genders have responsibility, as they each help cause the issues in BOTH genders at the same time).
Notice he said what’s wrong with feminism TODAY. It’s not anti-feminist, it’s anti-modernfeminism if anything.
I wasn’t upset exactly, but wanted to counter the caricature presented in Joss’s snark with and equal and opposite caricature. I didn’t think either one was vitriolic, personally, but my purpose with that post was to take the energy it put out and reflect it directly back, and hopefully exposing it as ridiculous in the process, or at least balance out the snark a bit.
I think there is truth to Joss’s snark about what men experience before they have daughters. It’s all fun and games for him until he has a little girl himself and then he doesn’t understand why she places her own worth in her looks when he probably placed the worth of women throug their looks for decades before she came along. It’s a cycle.
And I think there is truth to Marcus’ snark about what feminists experience before they become feminists. Its all good when they are taking men at worst faith, dictating their experiences to them, and shaming them into silence until those men strike back with anger (and no its not all unjustified) and they don’t understand why men’s responses to feminism range from indifference, to constant suspicious, to instant hatred when they have probably treated men in those exact same ways before the the anger came along.
If anything I’d say Marcus and Joss make good points.
SOME MEN. Sheesh!
Can we not assume the “some” at this point?;)
Wow.
Michelle, I’ve learned that women don’t understand the nature of male sexuality. And I don’t think most of them really want to know. Any explanation I’ve attempted is either ignored or scoffed at. So here we are. No understanding of a key issue in the gender battles. No truce in site. Carry on.
Um, no. There is no “male sexuality.” There is no “female sexuality.” There is too much variation within both genders for there to be a universal “sexuality.”
All you can do is understand a person’s sexuality.
Thank you, I was about to say that, Artemis. 🙂
Sexy stuff is appealing and get us aroused. I totally understand that. My mother, being the practical one…or call just call her prudish would wonder why men even bother with these type of girly magazines? These magazines are targeted mostly at grown men, men who have had sex and know what a woman’s body looks and feels like — they come in all shapes and sizes — So, why do men need these magazines then? Why ogle at air-brushed women and live in your head in fantasy? Why not go meet girls, have a relationship with a REAL woman and… Read more »
Michelle bear in mind that as men not only is the sexy stuff appealing to us but according to the script of being a man it is also supposed to be on our minds all the time. Even a guy that’s in a relationship has been led to think that he is just so full of desire that he must look at ever woman imaginable. And as for the guys that aren’t in relationships its served to us as something of a solace reminder that we are still men. Doesn’t a real live woman — who you can touch, smell,… Read more »
I highly doubt the target audience for Sports Illustrated have NEVER been in a relationship nor had sex before . My post doesn’t target that minority group… there are a lot of teenage boys having sex and have girlfriends…so this is an insignificant minority; moreover, this minority does not drive the sales of Sports Illustrated — get what I mean? My post deals with the majority — the 99 percent who know about sex and relationships but choose ink and paper instead…or taking this further — choose porn.
Regardless of your doubts the target audience of a lot of those mags are young men. Young men that buy into the idea that its all about the sex. Whether these men have lots of experience or no experience with women there is something for each of them. In addition to what I said above about the guys who have no experience the ones that do have experience are working under the impulse ogling the “perfect body” and ogling as many bodies as possible because what is a man if he isn’t his sex drive (or at least that’s what… Read more »
“My post deals with the majority — the 99 percent who know about sex and relationships but choose ink and paper instead…or taking this further — choose porn.” I know of plenty of guys who have been burned in relationships and are shy to enter a new one, or cannot find a suitable partner (quite hard especially in a small town with poor night life and regular social events). There are far more single guys and girls using porn/visual stimulus than people realize I think. And conflating two very different cultures is a bit much MichelleG, the culture in Afghanistan… Read more »
Choosing to look at porn isn’t the same as choosing porn OVER a real woman. Men in relationships or with relationship options still look at pornography (which this photo is not, by the way). Many women look at it too. Some men and women look at it together! It doesn’t mean they are choosing to live in their minds rather than in the real world unless it is taken to an extreme. People watch tv and read books, but unless either becomes an addiction it is just a pleasant get-away, not a denial of reality.
“… so the problem is not women, it’s men …”
The problem is neither women nor men. The problem is FEAR. Until you understand this, you understand nothing.
Can you elaborate? You mean men fear women’s bodies being too sexy, so Afghanistan women need to cover themselves up? I already know the basis of why these women cover up — they FEAR being raped. (It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out! I don’t like discussing the obvious, please.) Women there do not rape other women — men rape; they cover up, because they FEAR MEN. Why should these women fear men? Why do men want to behave so juvenile as to instill fear in women and their young daughters? At the core of all of this… Read more »
Men fear the dehumanization and dispossession of law enforcement, family court and criminal court. When a man sees another man in uniform, he sees the enemy. It does not matter if the uniform is blue or black. The woman in the picture cannot accuse me of doing something I did not do. She cannot take my income, my property, my dignity, my liberty, or (most important) my children. She cannot harm me. I have no fear of the woman in the picture. You, however, are very different. I would be very, very afraid of you, if I were to meet… Read more »
Anthony, I think your viewpoint is ridiculously skewed. Apparently your ex-wife took everything in the divorce or an ex-girlfriend accused you of rape or both. Most men look at porn because they like looking at porn, not because they fear having an actual relationship with a real women will ruin their lives and make them lose everything. That is a mental illness-level paranoia/anxiety if it is keeping you from having real relationships and not the norm.
Michelle, your violence information is pure fiction. If you care about the truth, study table 2.1 (page 18) and table 2.2 (page 19) of the CDC’s 2010 “National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS)”: http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf Here are the facts. In 2010, the NISVS estimates that there were 2.537 “intimate” assaults in the United States: 1.270,000 assaults of women, by men (female victim, male perpetrator) 1,267,000 assaults of men, by women (male victim, female perpetrator) These refer to non-consensual forced intimacy. The crimes have a different name depending on the gender of the perpetrator. You can thank feminists for this.… Read more »
Where did you get Afghanistan from Sports Illustrated? Seriously I am at a loss to understand it. Anthony is talking about some men being afraid of dating women in the U.S.A (I’m presuming the US), where domestic violence, sexual assault and rape happen at significant numbers against the men by the women so quite a few men can legitimately be afraid of women. There is also the problem of the gendered view of abuse where male victims can be caught up, thought to be the attacker and punished by the justice system. And there is also the issue of family… Read more »
“I can see how some men would be afraid by this just as I can see some women too being afraid of dating men.”
So very true…and it’s such a problem. We have created a society where men are potentially afraid of women because they could falsely accuse the man of rape. And women are potentially afraid of men because common wisdom says that any man is a potential rapist. It’s messed up on either side.
Why is it a “problem” that people have fear? Fear can be healthy when it is justified.
Relationships between people have certain risks. I cannot speak for women, but the current situation clearly warrants that every man, in every situation, should completely avoid all women. It is not that women are “bad” in any way. It is that a women can do anything, absolutely anything, to a man in court, with the full complicit and enthusiastic participation of the feminist state.
Let me be more clear:
>>> Men should live alone <<<
And these images help that happen.
It’s a problem because if anyone feels like it’s safer to live alone rather than with other people…that should be fixed. We should all feel safe enough to live by ourselves…but we shouldn’t feel as though having a relationship is such a huge legal/safety risk.
ahh okay, I see.
Men who don’t like other people should live alone. Men who like other people can do whatever the f*** they want.
Same goes for women. If you don’t like the opposite gender, then yeah, don’t live with them. If you do, then go ahead, have fun. And many people here do enjoy the opposite gender.
Oo. Oo. Self-promotion just now. For more on headscarves, etc. see: https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/headscarves-and-men-holding-hands-coming-out-as-a-cultural-relativist/ Even in a place like Afghanistan the reason for covering up isn’t a fear of rape. In Egypt, where sexual harassment against women is quite high (or at least it was 4 years ago), women don’t go fully covered as a way to prevent it…because they know the issue isn’t whether women are covered or not. One woman I talked to in Egypt said that the first day she went out completely covered, she was verbally harassed. It’s a cultural issue about how men are expected to behave… Read more »
When you go to the beach during the summer, do you take your top off? Why not? Men do. Would you fear being raped if your breasts were showing in public?
Visual stimulation for masturbation would be one usage. Not everyone has a partner, and not every partner is around every-time someone desires sex so many men AND WOMEN use porn, magazines like this to get off.
I don’t know what you’re talking about there, Archy. I have never ever heard of women using porn. I most certainly have never used a Sports Illustrated in such a fashion. I bought my swimsuit edition for the articles, I tell ya. For the articles. 😉
That was sarcasm, by the way.
This one sounds right to me. I have no idea how many guys like Anthony describes might somehow be choosing pictures of women because they’re afraid of real women, but it’s never been than complicated for me. Pictures are fantasy fodder for me, nothing more. They don’t make me expect real women to be like that, or make me feel entitled to sex with every woman I meet, or every pretty woman I happen to see in person. In this age of Internet porn, the SI Swimsuit issue is hardly the most provocative source of bodies available for young men… Read more »
Archy, people aren’t only using porn when their real life partner isn’t available or because they are single. Those aren’t the only two situations where people use porn. I also wonder when we switched from the mindset, “My partner isn’t home right now, I will wait until they get home and we get settled in so we can have sex”, to “Oh no! My partner isn’t around I need to jerk off to porn now!” What happened to some self control? Because I got to say, if I ate ice cream every time I craved it, I would be obese.… Read more »
What Archy is referring to isn’t a systematic need for immediate gratification. We could have a discussion about that…but that’s a step beyond what Archy’s talking about. Two people (or more) in a relationship don’t always have the same libido. So people masturbate, and porn helps with that. Not to mention, masturbation is not just a sex-substitute. Everyone needs selfish moments in their lives, and masturbation is part of that…where it’s all about your pleasure without worrying whether you’re doing it right, or whether your partner(s) find you attractive, etc. Plus it’s a good stress release. And what I’m talking… Read more »
Well said, Heather. I would add that I think it’s strange how photoshopping takes so much heat, as if it’s to blame for bad relationships and unhealthy body image. (Those problems existed before photoshop, right?) It’s just a technology, but before photoshopping, there was airbrushing, and no matter what medium artists have depicted “beauty” in, there has been enhancement and misdirection. Lighting and makeup in movies or photos; selection of unusually attractive people as models or actors, instead of depicting “average” people; even classic painters and sculptors depict mostly what counted as beautiful and desirable at the time they made… Read more »
“Or that you have more fathers in the habit of telling their daughters they look fat than mothers.” I will add onto this. I’m totally agreeing with everything your saying, Marcus. I’ve never known a woman whose father told her she was fat. If either parent said something, it was always a mother. And then there’s my mother, who never told me anything other than that I was beautiful…but she was constantly worrying about her own appearance and weight. So I got it into my head that that’s what adult women do…they fret about their weight and about looking older,… Read more »
Amen to this, I do feel women put unrealistic expectations of beauty on EACH OTHER, more so than the men. The harshest judging of beauty I have heard of women was by other women, in my experience many guys are too busy drooling over boobies to care but the ones that do seem to care are in the fashion industry making clothing who seem so far apart from that average male that you might as well make a new category for them. I realize there are a lot of men that go ga ga over the latest supermodel/actress (Olivia Wilde… Read more »
“I also wonder when we switched from the mindset, “My partner isn’t home right now, I will wait until they get home and we get settled in so we can have sex”, to “Oh no! My partner isn’t around I need to jerk off to porn now!”” Erin: Regardless of how much sex I have, I still want to masturbate. And vice versa. So what is wrong with me taking time when my boyfriend is at work/class to masturbate? It doesn’t interfere with our sex life, we both do it, it’s not unhealthy. Masturbation is a completely different experience from… Read more »
“Honey, I’m home.”
“Get on me now, sugarlips.”
You don’t find that romantic? 😉
Bob, you have no idea what you are talking about. The most appealing aspect of this image is NOT photo-shopped. It is genuine and true. It is impactful and profound. It is the understanding that separates boyhood from manhood. >>> This image cannot do harm <<< It cannot falsely accuse out of utility, spite, or boredom. It cannot take a man's property, income, dignity, or freedom. And above all, it cannot take a man's children from him. If you think that these images would be any less appealing if photo-shop did not exist, then you do not understand the predicament… Read more »
Anthony, I have no idea what you are talking about. Clarify?
Men do not choose images over women because images look better. Men choose images over women because they see the devastation of fathers who are dismembered and cannibalized in family court. The images cannot take you to court, accuse you of things you did not do, take your property, take your income, take your dignity, take your liberty, and take your children. Women can.
Clear?
You just don’t like women as people do you? You scare me, Anthony.
Women have nothing to do with it. I spend half my time telling other MRAs “women are not the problem.”
Feminism is the problem.
I’d rather choose a woman? Anthony, you’re post is a bit confusing. You’re basically saying it’s less risky to like images?
I believe he is indicating that to admire an image (unreal) means no risk is involved. The image cannot divorce a man, bear or take his child and so forth.
You did not say feminists, you said women. You said you would choose a picture over a woman. Which leads me to believe you do not like real women.
Women are people, which means they can nice, they can be jerks, they can be heroes or villains, just like any other person. But you would rather have a fantasy so you don’t have to deal with people?
Maybe you are just a misanthropist?
OMG! This is crazy. How did this turn from a simple informative subject to rape, feminist, family court, Afghanistan and all this other s_ _t. People the point of the matter is that MOST PHOTOS ARE RETOUCHED. That’s it. Just information the public should know. Don’t take it to the heart you’ll get heartburn from all that worry. Lol.