This is a comment by DD on the post “The Danger in Demonizing Male Sexuality“.
DD said:
Every time I read one of these articles and the resulting comments threads, it becomes obvious how little men and women are actually listening to each other. Both sides are largely talking past one another, and only taking in/accepting ideas that support their established worldview.
To the women: Understand that the men here are saying that they have, in many cases, done EVERYTHING you’ve asked them to do — often for decades — and yet many of them are spending the majority of their days and nights alone. To be told that, “rejection isn’t that big of a deal,” or that things would go well for them if they only did “just this one more thing…” is a massive slap in the face. That’s especially true when they see thugs, djs, bodybuilders, and bikers doing anything but what a typical reader of these articles would do, and still taking home more girls than they can handle.
To the men: The women here do seem to be sincerely trying to help you, but most of them really have no idea how. From their perspective, whenever they reach out to men, all they get is anger in return — which then begs the question, “why even bother?”
I don’t see anything on a society-wide level that’s going to change this dynamic any time soon. Ultimately, it’s up to the individual to throw off their own cultural biases and restrictions and figure out what works for them.
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The impression I get is that we are so invested in belonging to groups (men/ women/ black/ white etc.) and in representing and defending those groups that we forget that much human interaction happens on a one-on-one level. We talk to and listen to individuals, not to all men or all women.
If we recognized people as the individuals that they were (with their flaws and strengths) rather than representatives of their genders, we would be one step closer to more frank and open communication .
No one should get everything they ask for. It generally leads to a sense of entitlement and a feeling of being in power. Everyone should get some of what they ask for. It generally leads to a sense of gratitude and feeling of being appreciated.
One problem is that there are lots of people in the cultural realm making money from men’s and women’s supposed inability to understand each other. There’s a lot of short-term gain for some people to drive the wedge as deeply as possible. There’s no money to be made right now writing a book suggesting that men and women are not so different from each other. Not many comedians who have a future with routines about how men and women are quite similar to each other. Who would laugh at that today? Not so much media coverage to a politician who… Read more »
P.S. Not to mention divorce lawyers. Is their economic benefit in cooperation between the sexes or in conflict between the sexes?
Oddly, you should mention attorneys. Attorneys are turning down bullying cases, they are fed up. Boys are getting bullied, filing reports, taking self-defense classes, and they fight back. When they fight back they get suspended. But lawyers are pushing back and saying no. It’s a parent/school issue and they need to cooperate, without legal involvement.
Men have done everything women have asked and men are in checkmate, game over.
The OP comment should’ve been used for another article.
She asked how WE could work together to change our collective impression of male sexuality, but went on to list ways on how MEN could do so.
Are we honestly supposed to believe that woman haven’t played in a part in the screwed up view of male sexuality ?
I’ll be the first to say that I’ve fallen off the wagon so to speak more times than I can recall. I’ve been hostile because it gives me a small amount of comfort. I drop the hostility in order to attempt to connect and get hostility/condescension/bullshit in return. I become hostile as a result. Cycle ensues. From what I see I drop back to hostility because when I receive it I convince myself that there is no point in trying to be civil because I’m not getting any civility, much less genuine communication, in return. I’ll bet I’m not alone… Read more »
You guys have pretty good handle on where we are today, I’ve been listening. 3-4 decades of divorce and dysfunctional families. Men have been silenced in virtually every aspect of life. And shame on us for letting it happen. We all have a little crow to eat and some personal responsibility for the state of our affairs today. I’m in complete support of bringing men and women back together and restoring the ‘traditional’ man-woman relationship (ie. family) and put a halt to this adversarial battle of the sexes…because it affects all of us. I’ll share my personal beliefs…ogwriter and I… Read more »
Oh bullshit, the traditional relationship is limiting, embattled and nasty, my husband and my nontraditional works wonderfully, because we listen to each other and not antiquated gender roles
I’m in complete support of bringing men and women back together and restoring the ‘traditional’ man-woman relationship (ie. family) and put a halt to this adversarial battle of the sexes…because it affects all of us.
As long as that works for you (the traditional relationship) I say go for it. But either way halting the battle of the sexes would do us all a lot of good.
Danny, I can respect your skepticism…and yes it would do us lot of good. Please excuse me as I take my PC filter off, so I can speak candidly. I don’t give 2-s#its at this point about the non-traditional, anti-male, all about me sentiment coming from women and the brainwashed men in our leadership…because quite frankly they don’t give 2-s#its about you and our concerns. There, I said it. Most of the laws put in place after CR have been slowly chipping away at our Individual liberties (ie rights) by the feminists and give more liberty to the govt to… Read more »
Forgot an important piece of info. Many of the bills are framed incorrectly and have a left-shift and only give us a choice between govt-lite or govt-heavy. Clinton did this all the time.
The Abstinence vs Comprehensive Sex Ed Bill is an example of where it should have been designed as Individual Liberty vs States Rights.
https://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/illinois-passes-bill-for-comprehensive-sex-ed-in-public-schools/
@Joan…
I am with you 1000%. Government is NOT the answer. Government (bad laws) is the problem.
I live in Bulgaria in the mid 80s. The whole “official” state was a complete farce. The people knew this but had to conform as it was a police state. But, they knew it was just a systemic pack of lies.
America is headed (or is already here) to this point where this small elite think they know what is best for everyone. Too heel with them I say.
Give me liberty or give me death! – Patrick Henry
Jules, yep. We’ve drifted. The Tea Party, nonetheless, is the new conservative party. They are people just like you, asking why are we living in a socialized police state?
Problem is the faulty thinking plaguing the left. People like Melissa Perry, an activist for parent’s rights and wants more government in parenting…she wants the govt to raise kids. Fathers already have no rights and feel disposable. Her audience is the African American female. I recommend she give public apology for misleading her audience.
We the People!
Yes, both sides are indeed talking past one another. I hear AND listen to what women are saying. My problem is that what women are saying versus what women are ACTUALLY doing. They are two different things. Hey, they (women) are free to do as they damn well please. However, it does not engender much credibility when women tell men to do and be A, B, C, D, E but they (women) turn around and go for men who do not or are not A, B, C, D, E. These guys are exempt and given a free pass. Why? Only… Read more »
Jules, you are right. Women are not being 100% honest with men…and most of us aren’t being 100% honest with ourselves either. I could go into a number of social and cultural reasons I think contribute to this but you seem like an intelligent guy who probably already knows about that stuff. So, the 100% honest answer from at least one woman’s perspective… Women have turn ons and turn offs. When a woman tells a man that she wants A, B, C, D, E (nice, funny, sensitive, etc.) she is not giving a list of turns ons. She is giving… Read more »
@woman. Thanks for sharing your inside views. I would tend to agree with most of what you said. Let’s take a closer look. “I bet if you look at the guys who are “exempt and given a free pass” from A, B, C, D, E qualities you will find and abundance of S, E, X, Y qualities (being physically fit, self confidence, leadership skills, etc.)” OK. I am willing to buy this. But, if two thirds of all Americans are overweight, then it means that women will only find the remaining men physically attractive. Can we agree? Same with self… Read more »
Jules, I can’t speak for women, but I can share my own experience with this. Genuinely sexy, non-douchebag guys are in high demand, and the women they are with know it. I think many of the women in these situations would genuinely like to marry the sexy guys, but the guys are less inclined to do so since they have so many other options. Daniel Tosh does a great joke about this in his latest stand up. Paraphrasing: “Babe, it’s not about you versus any other girl… it’s about you versus ALL the other girls!” Self-sabotage is also very common… Read more »
DD, I guess being 50 and having been married for over 15 yr before divorcing, much of what you’re saying just does not resonate with me. America is a very shallow and faddish type of society, relative to say Western Europe. We are always in a hurry to go no where! As for the genuine non-douche bag type of guys, it all starts with what “woman” above noted. They must be S,E,X,Y. Most men period simply do not fit the S,E,X,Y imagine. Hell, two thirds of American men AND women are overweight. More women are overweight than men. I am… Read more »
Basically a douchebag is great for a one nighter, because you can get rid of him in the morning secure in the knowledge that A: he doesn’t give a fuck and B: even if he is attached to you he’s basically a shit person,
However, I held out for ABCED in a husband (as well as SEXY)
@Madeira….
So the non douche bag becomes a pest?
Are also stating that ONLY douche bag guys are good for casual sex?
Just asking.
So, you got it all in your husband. Great for you and him. But very rare. Both of you are indeed very fortunate.
Over time, I’ve come to understand the inherent difference between hearing what is being said vs listening to what is being said. In one instance, you’re hearing the words only and not absorbing the meaning but rather you’re formulating your next response. Definitely missing the opportunity to learn what someone is trying to tell you. Some people are not very articulate with saying what they mean so you have to become the active listener and repeat back to them, what you heard and what you thing they meant by what they said. While we may practice this in general in… Read more »
DD, as woman in this blogosphere, I see the same thing, “From women’s perspective, whenever they reach out to men, all they get is anger which then begs the question, “why even bother?” This is where women give up. But this is exactly where women need to stand firm and LISTEN to men’s anger, bitterness, frustration…and try to understand it, not argue with it, give up, or take it as a personal attack. I have learned so much from these discussions by partnering with men on topics and to get to the bottom of things. I thank the Good Men… Read more »
It’s a cliché, but true, that because men are taught anger is the only okay emotion to express, anger is what you get a lot of. We’ve all seen instances of a man expressing an emotion other than anger and being told by a woman to “man up.” So then he get angry and everything’s the way it should be. So there’s a lot of work toward changing that social norm – and it can only be a joint effort. Here’s another true cliché: “I statements” really do work. When one says, “You so-and-so,” it’s over. So even anger can… Read more »
We’ve all seen instances of a man expressing an emotion other than anger and being told by a woman to “man up.” So then he get angry and everything’s the way it should be.
Aint that the truth. But you know that sets up a catch 22 right?
If he expresses something other than anger he is told to “man up”. Well when he does get angry and shows it then he’s a bully/brute.