Keith asks, “Is the casual sex marketplace heavily biased against men?”

This is a comment by Keith, John, and John D on the post “On Women and Casual Sex – Part II: Flings, One Night Stands and Same Night Lays“.

Keith said:

“These articles tell us that women are selective just because they have a risk of being sexually violated or having their reputation tarnished. They don’t mention that even if these factors were removed, hypothetically, women would still be much more picky than men and have higher standards because they just find fewer men physically and sexually appealing. They are just predisposed to find fewer men attractive. That or maybe nature just creates more ugly men than women. This is the root of the conundrum.

“In casual sex encounters, men are generally a lot more friendly, courteous than women. The women have a lot more leverage, they usually get to decide when where and how. Men are more insecure about their ‘performance’, They are more likely to ask her number for future (it’s usually up to the woman to decide if she wants to do it again). Women are more likely to kick a man out of bed after its over.”

John said:

“Let’s think about this, most women spend their days taking care of their appearance. They worry about their weights and body shape, so they are dieting.They taking care of their hairs, using hair treatment products to make their hair looks smooth and good. They go to hair saloon. They taking care of their skin using various body lotion, moisturizer, body scrub, etc. They like go shopping and searching for nice clothes which will make them look better. Men? Lets admit it, most of us do not taking care of our appearance and we don’t know how to dress.

“And you complain how women think most men are not physically/sexually appealing? I workout, taking care of my appearance, and I find nice fitted clothes. And I have receive many compliment from women (and men) about how good my looks. Its easy, if you want women to find you physically attractive just work for it.”

John D said:

“Since men are saddled with the majority of burden to put themselves out there and initiate, quiet introverted girls can and do get indications of interest from men. What sounds like a human issue is really just a female entitlement issue. The social burden for men to risk being rejected puts women into a position of entitlement and control.

“If I went through life getting daily indicators of interest and messages I was desirable as most women do, I would be very entitled and picky too and never settle for ‘just sex’ but would feel I could screen for only GREAT SEX. Especially if I was getting indicators of interest about every 40 minutes (as even plain women do).

“When men are entitled we are called on our bullshit. When women are entitled, men are told ‘You’re doing it wrong. Here’s how to re-define yourself to fit into the average entitled women’s narrow mold of a necessary mate for GREAT SEX (since women don’t need or want ‘just sex’ like men do).’”

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Comments

  1. @ title’s question. Yes.

  2. “If I went through life getting daily indicators of interest and messages I was desirable as most women do, I would be very entitled and picky too and never settle for ‘just sex’ but would feel I could screen for only GREAT SEX.”

    1. I’m not too sure where these “indicators of interest” and “messages” telling me I’m “desirable” are, but I’d really appreciate you sharing them. If you’re referring to being hit on or oggled, I promise that it doesn’t leave me feeling all that entitled, but actually pretty lousy, more like a very appealing OBJECT of desire.

    2. Are you suggesting that people should ever settle for “just sex”? Just because someone has standards as to who or what comes in contact with their body, does not make them “picky”. It makes them an independent human with basic judgement skills and personal standards which are none of your damn business.

    I think the real entitlement issue here is that someone would dare declare that another person be “picky”, or somehow in the wrong because they refuse to have sex with you.

    I am completely appalled by these comments.

    • So too much desire is bad, not enough is bad? Or do you mean desire ONLY for your body and not the rest of you?

      “2. Are you suggesting that people should ever settle for “just sex”? Just because someone has standards as to who or what comes in contact with their body, does not make them “picky”. It makes them an independent human with basic judgement skills and personal standards which are none of your damn business.”
      I believe they are saying that women get more offers and thus don’t HAVE to settle for just sex, whilst men’s only option, or that more men have to settle for sex to get ANY sex.

      • Every woman’s a special snowflake. Utterly unique. Irreplaceable. Unlike anyone else in the world. The One. If you can make her feel that way… you’ll do well. If you let them see how foolish the notion is, you won’t.

        Men, on the other hand, who needs us anymore?

    • Chris Anthony says:

      When overly concerned about another groups privilege it’s easy to ignore or downplay your own. You’re apalled most likely because you don’t enjoy your privilege,( referring to your opposition to be seen as an appaling object) not because you don’t have it. For instance I know a lot of kids that grew up with money and hated it for their own reasons. It however did not negate the privileges of having that money. Almost none of them chose to wear cheap or tattered clothing or refuse the video games , toys, vacations and expensive educations because they didn’t associate these things with their privilege. They (all but the most perceptive of them) assumed that having *some* of these things was simply a choice all people rich and poor alike made. You may assume men and women have the same currency to spend in these interactions….when we don’t.
      Also “settling” is when you choose something less than ideal because you can’t get the exact thing you think is ideal. Settling for “just sex” is only settling if you wanted more. Some settle for a full on relationship when they can’t get the “just sex” they are looking for. Perspective my friend…..perspective.

    • “2. Are you suggesting that people should ever settle for “just sex”? Just because someone has standards as to who or what comes in contact with their body, does not make them “picky”. It makes them an independent human with basic judgement skills and personal standards which are none of your damn business.”

      I don’t think anyone is saying that anyone should go for “just sex”. Just that a person with the possibility of something more is better of than one who doesn’t.

    • Manda says:
      “1. I’m not too sure where these “indicators of interest” and “messages” telling me I’m “desirable” are, but I’d really appreciate you sharing them. If you’re referring to being hit on or oggled, I promise that it doesn’t leave me feeling all that entitled, but actually pretty lousy, more like a very appealing OBJECT of desire.
      2. Are you suggesting that people should ever settle for “just sex”? Just because someone has standards as to who or what comes in contact with their body, does not make them “picky”. It makes them an independent human with basic judgement skills and personal standards which are none of your damn business.”

      1. So, men initiating with you has not turned into dates or relationships ever? If that’s the case for you, from what I have been hearing on these forums and others, that is NOT the case for the vast majority of women. Shy introverted girls have an option that shy introverted guys don’t have in finding love (or sex), to screen approachers. Even if those options DON’T WORK FOR YOU they still bring you greater privilege just by the fact that you have them.
      To many shy introverted men, your problems sound like hollywood stars complaining of all the people asking for autographs. Yeah, it may be a pain in the ass–until it disappears.
      I have seen many articles showing middle aged women desperately trying to recapture that attention. I remember seeing quite a few articles of women in various positions being fired for publishing salacious photos of themselves. Not to mention the huge laundry list of female teachers who feel starved for that lusting longing male gaze so badly they initiate sex with students who can’t give full legal permission.
      2. I’m not necessarily attacking women’s pickiness, and I am certainly not butt hurt over any passed over attention. Women can be as picky as they want–after all if 80% of women will only deign to schtup the top 5% of men for no strings sex, the women are also denying themselves sex too, not just me or other men.
      That’s fine.

      My issue is that after 30 some odd years of hearing how brutish men are, and we only value women for their looks and how the male mode of attraction is all based on our pleasure and puts women on scales and makes them feel horrible. Now that men are growing safe spaces to talk about their pain what is coming to light is that womens mode of attractions is just as much based on only (or mostly) her pleasure, just as much put men on scales, and is just as capricious and cruel as mens are.

      • Chris Anthony says:

        This..
        All of this. Spot on. Brilliant.

        • Thanks for the nod Chris.

          I meant to add (but forgot at the end of my rant) this:

          Women’s reactions to this news that their mode of attraction and mate selection is just as capricious and cruel as men’s seem to be much much more poorly received compared to the reactions of men who have been force-fed the message over the last 30 years that we are brutes because we only care about beauty.

          Surprise! Men are not demons, and women are not all suffering saints.

          We’re all down here in the fugly muck of humanity. Men don’t have a monopoly on dbags, they come equally in all sex and all colors and orientations.

  3. Well, there is bias but it’s bias in the samples, not so much bias in the results.

    Consider that the bias isn’t against men, it’s against whoever does the asking. By definition the odds of me getting a “yes” every time I ask is going to be lower than 100% even if I’m Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie. For instance some non-zero percentage of potential asks are involved with someone else, recovering from another relationship, you’re not his or her type in general, or there’s something specific about you that doesn’t work for them this time. Heck, they could even have just had an amazing couple of rounds with themselves and just plain not be horny at the moment you’re asking no matter how hot they might find you some other time, right?

    Consider even further the simple lag time in the ask/answer dynamic: I’ve obviously made up my mind before I ask — any dithering, option weighing, courage summoning, and just general all-round emotional investment is water under the bridge. The person I ask, on the other hand, now has to go through everything I’ve been through (including the considerable emotional investment of answering) with the additional pressure of time: you’re sitting in front of them with (almost literally) nothing to do but wait for the answer. Yikes! Not fun for shy people no matter how they want to answer! But I digress…

    Point being, if even under the most ideal circumstances (i.e. you’re Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie) you’re likely to get a “no” chances are high that almost everybody’s going to frequently be told “no” when he or she does the asking. So. Biased against men? I’m going to change my initial answer from a no to a qualified yes: to the extent that men do the asking then yes, the casual sex marketplace is biased against them. But only to the extent they ask.

    But remember, asking bias is only one kind of bias. There’s another kind that totally blew me away when it finally sank into my thick skull: there’s extraordinary but invisible bias against those who are never asked.

    The person who brought it home for me? A woman who’s screen name was “scarred.” She thought the whole idea that “women have the power” was the bitterest lie on the planet. Because the “power” to say yes or no exists only when one’s opinion is asked. The power to respond to an initiative depends entirely on whether or not someone takes the initiative.

    And to the extent it’s women who are asked rather than doing the asking, the “casual sex market” might seem to be overwhelmingly biased against them. Although, really, it’s only biased against anyone, man or woman, who might (never) be asked. No matter how much they long for a chance to say “yes.”

    I’d just add, by the way, that it’s not just “homely” people who are never asked (if we could even meaningfully say what “homely” means, given the incredible range of qualities people are attracted to.) For some women the words “she’s out of my league” are a blow to the gut, and the words “she probably has a boyfriend who could break me in half” are salt in the wounds. But again, the “bias” comes in the form of men who decide for themselves the answer will be “no,” and never ask. Again, creating the hidden bias against those who wait to be asked.

    Last “bias.” The person who says “no” because they’re waiting for that one person who, for whatever of a million reasons, never asks them.

    It’s super easy to see only one side, but if you do then you might be missing the bigger picture.

    figleaf

    • Consider that the bias isn’t against men, it’s against whoever does the asking.

      Who of course are predominantly men.

      there’s extraordinary but invisible bias against those who are never asked.

      Who of course also are predominantly men.

      Because the “power” to say yes or no exists only when one’s opinion is asked. The power to respond to an initiative depends entirely on whether or not someone takes the initiative.

      This is of course true, but they still have an option left, namely taking the initiative themselves.

    • For some women the words “she’s out of my league” are a blow to the gut, and the words “she probably has a boyfriend who could break me in half” are salt in the wounds. But again, the “bias” comes in the form of men who decide for themselves the answer will be “no,” and never ask. Again, creating the hidden bias against those who wait to be asked.

      Women have a word for men who are out of their league and dare to hit on them: Creep. For every woman who complains that men don’t approach because they think she’s out of their league there are two who complain about too much attention. To make it even more complicated, often it’s the same woman who complains about too much attention from the wrong men and too less from the right ones. As a man, you just have to cope with the trivial task to find out whether your attention is wanted at this particular moment or not. If you’re guessing wrong you are either a creep or didn’t give her the attention she deserves.

    • I think we can conduct an experiment.

      Pick an average looking young man AND an average looking young woman.
      Get them to approach 100 ppl of the opposite sex, representative of population in terms of attractiveness, in a bar/club/social setting.
      Compare the success rate

      Repeat the experiment with 1000 more pairs of test subjects.
      Analyze the results using statistical methods.

      If this kind of research is carried out some day by sociologists, I am wiling to bet my life’s earnings on the result that women will have a much much higher success rate

      • Well first, I don’t think only “average” people’s experiences should matter. What of the experiences of really attractive people or really unattractive people? They are people that should have voices in this discussion as well.

        Secondly, I actually think you are right. Based on the terms of the experiment you’ve set. However, what do we individually consider success? Is it mearly how many numbers you get? How many dates? How many sexual partners? An actualized relationship? Marrige? Just because you, Keith, are qualifying “success” a certain way in regards to your experiement, doesn’t mean everyone else qualifies it the same way. So while I agee that women, especially attractive ones, will ahve a much higher success fate as described by how you personally have defined “success” in your experiment, there are plenty of people out there that do not define “sucess” as you do and that needs to be remembered.

        I don’t consider it very “successful” if a man simply wants to sleep with me. I don’t consider it positive if this is the only exchange a man wants with me. It’s not a compliment and it doesn’t make me feel good. I don’t just want to have casual sex.

        I could be wrong but to me, it seems that a lot of men think that their lack of pickiness when it comes to sex strictly is a positive, and how women may conduct their sexual lives regarding their pickiness may be a negative. But that simply is too narrow of a judgement about men and women both. Men very well may be open to more “options” when it involves less committed “relationships” . But men are no less picky when it comes to picking an actual mate they are serious about then women are. It’s just that women aren’t always looking for casual sex to fill in the gaps until she finds Mr. Right. And it does seem like men are often open to casual sex inbetween their quest in looking for Mrs. Right. Men aren’t less picky then women all around. Men are just less picky about the casual partners. So it’s not fair to say women have “female entitlement” (which I actually find to be a very degrading term, especially from men that has always struggled to get men to take notice of me), simply because men are less picky when it comes to casual relationships.

        I get that some of you think women are entitled about this topic. But I can honestly say I have never, ever felt entitled in this area. I want you guys to think about the times women have told you what you were or who you were and how annoying that may have been and maybe listen to women when they tell you that they don’t feel entitled about this topic for x, y or z reasons.

        • Erin says:
          “I don’t consider it very “successful” if a man simply wants to sleep with me. I don’t consider it positive if this is the only exchange a man wants with me.”

          If your goal is long-term relationships, a man’s first step is generating interest or attraction in any target women. Since at least average women and up have about 80% of men’s interest from making eye contact her first step is who to provide signals that she’s interested and/or to screen for the right man.

          Changing the goal posts to an LTR, don’t change the game as much as you think. Women still have a major advantage and most of it can be laid at the cultural standard for men to initiate.

          • “I don’t consider it very “successful” if a man simply wants to sleep with me. I don’t consider it positive if this is the only exchange a man wants with me.”

            Well said. When a man and a women sleep together, society mostly sees it like this: The man winner of the game and the woman is the loser who gave in. She was dumb or weak willed enough to agree to his advances. And that’s a terrible feeling. I’ve had my fair share of casual sex–not with strangers or true one night stands, but with friends or people I know through school/work that might go on for a couple of weeks or months with no intent for an LTR and then fizzle. I’ve had more opportunities for people I want to only due to the fact that I’m very attractive–the less conventionally attractive women I know not only didn’t have this opportunity, but they were often ridiculed, humiliated, or treated very poorly afterwards. I never felt “successful” for having had any sort of casual sex with a man. In fact, even if I was completely into it and wanted it very much myself, the man always came out on top when looked at from the outside. I’m the idiot who falls for anything, not the clever, charming stud. I’m the one who lost value for doing something that felt good. He gained it. I do want to add that true casual sex with absolutely nothing behind it has never appealed to me. Even if it’s a short one, I’d like for there to be some story.

            • So…you’re getting physical intimacy and feel miserable, and men are being denied physical intimacy and also feel miserable.

              It seems deep down you realize that sex is for you two, but want to paint things that you pay a dear cost for your pleasure, which may or may not be true. Based, on the way I see women dressing going into nightclubs and the growth of the “cougar” theme, I don’t believe every woman pays as steep a price as you seem to be making out. What you say was true in 1960, not now.

              At least you still walk away with the memories of hot passion, many of which are being denied to shy and introverted guys. You’ll keep those memories forevere and later the circumstances of you being seen as a slut or easy will change or fade as you move or meet new people and leave old friends.

              The point is that even if it doesn’t advantage you 100% of the time what you have is still a privilege. You can rest assured that your ideal mate will more than likely be searching much harder to find you than you will him. And when you find each other, he will do much more to gain your attraction and respect than you will him.

              Beautiful women have what is closest to a fairy tale life. There main focal point is always self fulfillment. Whether that is mind-blowing sex with a rogue, or being comfortably provided for by an engineer, all you have to do is reach out and pick low hanging fruit.

              AT least 50% of men don’t have these types of privileges. Just because it’s not 100% advantageous or you have some regrets over sex (that most men will never be offered) doesn’t mean this isn’t privilege.

  4. “But remember, asking bias is only one kind of bias. There’s another kind that totally blew me away when it finally sank into my thick skull: there’s extraordinary but invisible bias against those who are never asked.

    The person who brought it home for me? A woman who’s screen name was “scarred.” She thought the whole idea that “women have the power” was the bitterest lie on the planet. Because the “power” to say yes or no exists only when one’s opinion is asked. The power to respond to an initiative depends entirely on whether or not someone takes the initiative.”

    Which is exactly what this is about. And since this affects some women, but most men it can clearly be seen as a gendered problem. That women have a superior situation in general doesn’t mean that some women won’t have a worse situation than most, but when the worst example you can find of a woman’s situation is the norm for men then clearly there isn’t gender equality in this area.

  5. Bay Area Guy says:

    The love marketplace in general is biased against men, whether it’s casual sex or dating.

    • “The love marketplace in general is biased against men, whether it’s casual sex or dating.”

      I don’t believe so. The casual sex, probably–but not love. Men are very cruel to women they don’t consider ‘marriage material.’ Whether they’re not conventionally attractive enough, have had too many partners, or have any sort of imperfection that they find important–even something as silly as liking the color pink too much. Women can and do get broken too.

      • Absolutely dating. How many men have you asked out on dates, Aya? I don’t even know exactly how many hundreds of women I’ve asked out on dates. Guess how many relationships I’ve been in? I gigantic zero. It’s not fair to compare the problems people face later on in relationships — which is probably evenly split between men and women — and ignore the fact that men have an infinitely harder time getting to the relationship stage than women do.

      • Aya

        Why is it that women’s magazines, online forums, expert advice, and their grievances center around problems women face within relationships?

        “How to not fall prey to jerks”
        “How to KEEP Mr Right interested” (once youve got him in bed)
        “How to get out of an abusive relationship”
        “How to spot a predator”
        “1 Million ways to please your man”

        Its because attracting men, being attractive to men, getting male attention, getting men in bed, has never been a problem for the ordinary woman. It has never been a problem for women to attract men and initiate relationships. Their concern is to take the relationship where they want it.

        For men, the most difficult task is to attract women, get them in bed and initiate a relationship. Thats why men’s grievances and the advice given to them centers around this.

        • Keith:

          “has never been a problem for the ordinary woman. It has never been a problem for women to attract men and initiate relationships.”

          Do you really think it’s that easy for a woman to get a relationship?
          If men really want to have all this casual sex, I’d switch places if I could!

          • Yes, it really is that easy. I know zero women that want to be in a relationship that are not in one and I know many MANY men, including myself, that want to be in a relationship, are actively trying to get into a relationship, and are having no success.

          • Yes Alice, I think its easier for women to INITIATE relationships, although the average woman will not consider 8 out of 10 men, who are available to her, good enough for her standards.

            Its only difficult for women to MAINTAIN relationships and SHAPE them the way they want them to be.

            • It depends on what kind of relationship. If it’s sexual, yes its easier for women. Other than that, its not so easy.

            • Keith:
              Since its so easy for women to initiate relationships, how do you think guys would respond to me if I walked up to them and said:
              “Hey, wanna be my boyfriend/husband???
              Not well at all!

              Also, you are not taking into account how difficult it is to have a relationship with a man that’s not based on sex. I’ve known women who’ve gone years without seriously dating, bc either their wasn’t chemistry or guy just wanted to get it on.

            • Sorry, the last comment was for Collin

            • “Since its so easy for women to initiate relationships, how do you think guys would respond to me if I walked up to them and said:
              “Hey, wanna be my boyfriend/husband???”

              It might be a better idea to give him your phone number or ask him out first, so he has a chance to get to know you… If you do that I guarantee you most average guys would respond positively.

            • I’d laugh at the approach but if I liked you I’d say we can see how it goes and go on a date, and if I didn’t I’d probably say no thanks but try that guy over there as I know he’s looking? Don’t mention the husband part though, say you wanna go on a date instead.

            • Archy & Emulator:
              I highly doubt it would work, especially if it was clear that the objective was not sex. I doubt most men want to be asked out *romantically* by women, but I think it could be a fun experiment!

            • Well you have 2 guys saying they’re ok with it. I know many guys who would be fine with it, the only problem is saying marriage which sounds like you’re too fast and could pressure the guy but for dating it’s fine. There are a lot of men, especially shy men like me, who would be more at ease if we were asked out for a change. Ladies, get off your asses n start asking guys out!:P

            • Archy:
              I think one thing guys should realize is that if women start asking men out, doesnt mean men in general will get asked out! lol

              go on a date, and if I didn’t I’d probably say no thanks but try that guy over there as I know he’s looking?”
              O lol. If i asked out a guy, and he said no, there’s no way I’d ask out another guy. I’m cool with leaving alone if I dont get the one I want. It would be unwise to assume that I’d be hopping from one man to the next, like men would do with women.

      • Aya

        Yes women can and do get broken. But they are totally unaware about how selective and shallow they were when they chose the men who broke them.

        Women’s lament reminds me of Goldilocks. She sits in many chairs to see which one is most comfortable and fits perfectly, but the one she chooses, breaks.

  6. I used to think that the “casual sex marketplace” was biased against men. Really I was just turning down all of the sex that I was being offered.

    Imagine that you are a man who is afraid of sex… You can’t admit not liking or wanting sex, it’s un-manly. You definitely can’t admit to being scared. It is much easier to not try, then blame women for not throwing themselves on your cock.

    I have had a lot of therapy to reduce the effects of my abusive childhood, and now I want sex, and suddenly there are a lot of women who want it too. Looking back, there were a lot of women in the past too, I just didn’t try, because I was scared.

    To be clear though, they don’t offer by saying “Hi I’m Jenny, and I want to have sex!” If they did that, they’d get called a slut :(. Instead they do things like dance next to you, look you in the eyes and smile, spend all night talking to you etc… Then you have to make a move. (Acceptable moves include lines like: Hi I’m Mike, what’s your name? and Do you mind if I sit down?) If you don’t do anything, then they will go off and find some other guy who will.

    Also, if you like data and graphs, this is pretty cool. My favorite line in the paper is “evidently, in sexual-contact networks, as in other scale-free networks, ‘the rich get richer’”
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v411/n6840/full/411907a0.html

    • Chris Anthony says:

      Mike you make a very good argument as to why someone who once needed therapy to come to a place of healthy sexual desire would have thought the marketplace was biased against men. That viewpoint however neglects to consider the majority position that men with standard healthy (uncoached if you will) sexual desires have. It’s beautiful that you have come into a personal reconciliation with sex, however this personal reconciliation reflects your personal thoughts. I don’t know many men who expect women to “jump on their cocks”. That attitude is quite laughable indeed. What we are talking about is how men are not and do not feel entitled to sex. What we are speaking in is the fact that women control the sexual landscape. Women are the landowners so to speak. They decide what gets planted, when, who, how much and how long. If we are midst role and they say stop we MUST stop (or become a rapist…no thanks). Women are notoriously choosy with who they will spend their sexual currency with. And nothing is intrinsically wrong with any of that necessarily. But it still is a system of entitlement whether you’ve learned to navigate it well or not.

    • “Instead they do things like dance next to you, look you in the eyes and smile, spend all night talking to you etc… Then you have to make a move.”
      Sure, and some who do this are only interested in being a friends if anything, hit on them and get that awkward discomfort after she’s rejected you. Hell some may be offended if you were asking for casual sex. Trying to guess what she wants based off body language isn’t all that great…

      • Whats wrong with friendship? I wouldnt mind just being friends with a guy.
        Honestly, I’d rather a guy be upfront and honest rather thing sweet talking me.

        • You realize I’m talking bout how confusing it is for him to decode her actions, not saying friendship is bad? That the actions can mean she wants to be friends, or she wants to fuck his brains out and he runs the major risk of fucking up a potential friendship if he goes for the romantic route and if he sticks to friends he also potentially misses out. Being upfront would be nice, I’m pretty nervous to do that myself though. I tended to shy back vs get in the game when younger, and now that I am a bit more confident pretty much every woman I meet is married or dating already lol.

          • One of my best female friends is a woman who I have hit on. She said no, and we didn’t have sex. We are still good friends. If you read the signs wrong, it doesn’t matter.

            I think women respect you more if you are honest and open about what you want.

    • Hey, can I nominate Mike for the next Comment Of The Day?
      He hits a lot of very good points.
      fl

    • Sorry Mike that is just warm fuzzy feel good crap that we’ve listening to since ages.

      Most men dont get the subtle signals you talk about, that can prompt men to make a move.

      Again, Im not complaining. It is what it is and nothing can be done about it. But atleast lets call a spade a spade.

      • “Most men dont get the subtle signals you talk about…”

        Seriously? Consider all the other stereotypical domains in which men are supposed to be able to notice incredibly subtle signs: fishing flies, game tracks, poker tells, speed traps, parent’s opening the garage doors, the difference between grilles on a ’57 vs ’58 Chevy, etc?

        I know some people have more ability to detect those things and others don’t (for the most part I don’t.) But here’s the important difference, based on what I’m hearing here: most guys understand that fish go for different flies, that deer leave tracks, that poker players have tells, that cops setup speed traps, that parents come home, that there’s a difference between Chevy grills. And so at least they know to look for them. But a lot of guys don’t seem to understand that women ~96% of women are interested in men and they signal their interest even if they don’t say it right out loud. And so, evidently, a lot of guys don’t know to look.

        Another difference, I guess, is that we generally don’t say poker, or deer, or fish are biased against men even though faaaaarrrrrrr more men end up in good relationships with women than master all those other things.

        figleaf

        • Because men are raised in a masculine stereotype relying on verbal communication more than body language for certain things. Not many seem to teach men what women’s body language is like so (and same for women) so you get a shitload of arguments that can be solved partially by reading men are from mars, women from venus books which seem to describe the gender roles decently. Women often mistake actions men do, ever seen the argument occur when a woman starts saying things she thought the man said and he sits there clueless as to how she read into that? I’ve seen that plenty of times and it’s probably because if a woman had said it it means Y, but a man saying it means X and so she mistakes it for Y as she is more used to feminine communication. I get caught in this trap when women say “You ALWAYS do this” and I say no I don’t, yet it’s meant to mean something like “you often do this”. I’ve heard women communicate with 5 vocal tones but men only with 3 which could also be an issue.

          There are plenty of comments around these sites where women are saying men are mistaking their friendly behaviour for interest, so a touchy feely type of woman may feel like she is into you because men aren’t so touchy feely. If you hang around your gender more and don’t get enough time with the opposite gender this problem may be worse as your view of behaviour is partly molded by how your friends act. I notice some women will say men are such aggressive brutes when the men are displaying competitive nature, they sometimes think the man is being more aggressive than he is from the male perspective. I notice some men will say a woman is acting emotional if she’s showing tears and venting her frustrations without what men think as logic (“they always do this to me”, “it’s the worst thing in the world”) and thus the man may think she is OVER-reacting.

          This is vvvverrry stereotypical gender role behaviour, doesn’t apply to all. I read the Mars Venus books and found they are a decent guide to dealing with people of a gender role, not necessary that gender. Learning to overlook the “always” statements and trying to decode what she is saying is helping me understand some of the women in my life better. It’s difficult when you are raised in a masculine manner to really understand feminine behaviour n vice versa, soooo many arguments arise from it and so many miscommunications happen. I am use to men being very direct with their anger for instance whilst women tended to be more subtle, passive aggressive, use psychological aggression vs physical.

          It’s easy to understand the differences in a hobby we love such as cars because it’s not as complex as human behaviour. It’s like how women are raised to notice other women’s makeup far more than men, and seeign as they often wear makeup they will understand it more than a man on average. Whereas men are raised to be builders more and put more effort into things like cars, so men on average will more often notice subtle differences and see a machine of beauty in cars where women may only see a method of transportation.

          The signals for attraction that women send, what are they? Looking at you a few times? Could mean she likes your clothes, could mean she wants to be your friend, could mean she is scared of you. Body language can be very subtle and relies hugely on a person’s experience, quite often people can get it wrong. Arms crossed? Is she cold or is she closed off? Playing with her hair? Is she nervous or is she attracted to you? Something I do, averting my eyes…am I nervous, am I disgusted by you, am I shy, am I not interested in looking at you? Saying I wanna have sex with you is infinitely easier to read than body language. Not all of us get a great chance to learn body language, I myself sometimes find it difficult to read due to my history with bullying and people looking at me I associated with them teasing me but I may have overlooked a bunch of women who were totally attracted to me.

          Studying cars is a hell of a lot easier than studying body language, cars don’t generally change car to car as much as humans do nor are cars so utterly complex in my view. We don’t even fully understand the role of hormones n chemicals in human relationships yet we know a huge amount about adding a turbo, fuel to air ratios etc that are more of a set thing vs variable like a human. We’re also far more comfortable learning about cars as generally people aren’t shy n nervous around them, they aren’t blinded by their own love or lust. I’ve never had anxiety when studying how to fix my car, but if I even LOOK at a woman I feel nervous inside and keeping eye-contact is difficult. This makes learning body language quite hard as I’m already jittery and my rational thinking, my intelligence is being affected by other parts of my mind that are full of questions like am I ok, am I doing alright talking? What do I talk about? Do I look into her eyes for more than 3 seconds? Will that be taken the wrong way?

          There’s also potentially brain differences. I’ve heard that women are more attuned to relationships, whereas men are more attuned to things like spatial awareness, stuff related to hunting, engineering/machines, etc. Could be a biological difference giving women the edge on body language, could be social conditioning, could be a mix of both. Men’s body language reading might have more to do with threat assessment vs more friendly interactions.

        • Figleaf

          96% of women might be interested in men. But a much smaller percentage of men. I agree with Tim that this is just feel good crap, people shove in our faces. I’m gonna repeat this, women are attracted to fewer men, while men are attracted to a much larger number of women.

      • @Tim:
        Most men dont get the subtle signals you talk about

        Do you men “don’t get” as in “don’t understand”, or as in “don’t receive”…?
        Because there’s an ocean of difference between the two, and quite frankly I think most men don’t receive the signals you are talking about at all.

    • @Mike:

      Well, i can only assume you are one of the handsome, i.e. “rich getting richer” guys, then.

      To be clear though, they don’t offer by saying “Hi I’m Jenny, and I want to have sex!” If they did that, they’d get called a slut . Instead they do things like dance next to you, look you in the eyes and smile, spend all night talking to you etc…

      And what if noone ever does? That must mean you’re just butt ugly and unattractive then, right?

      But you are right that women do this. I’ve seen half of soccer teams go up and grind themselves to one of my friends on a dance floor. But I haven’t had anyone come close to me like that in 25 years, I think.

  7. wellokaythen says:

    One problem with the marketplace model is that it tends to assume there are only “goods” out there being traded, but no “bads,” for lack of a better term. In the marketplace analogy, any attention is good attention. Having sex is like closing the deal, and the deals are what everyone is after. You either have something in demand or not in demand. In real life, however, there are negative forms of attention, and it’s not just a question of “ones” and “zeroes.” There are also “negative ones” circulating out there.

    If we’re going with the marketplace model, let’s enrich the metaphor and include things like “toxic assets” that are hard to unload, like bad mortgages. In your dating life, are you underwater in your payments?

    For some (many?) people, not all sexual attention is welcome or even useful. Sure, getting attention maybe gives you more options than not getting any, but some kids of attention will make your life worse, not better. It’s hard for many women to see themselves as privileged by something that feels often like it’s a big hassle.

  8. Bay Area Guy says:

    I think the whole “men pursue” model of courtship is what makes the casual sex marketplace biased against men.

    Think about it. If a woman constantly gets hit on, complimented, or otherwise has numerous men seeking her approval, it’s bound to get to her head. She’ll realize that she can afford to be choosy, because she can easily find a man.

    On the rare occasion that women have come up to and hit on me, it made me feel like hot sh*t. I can only imagine how I’d feel if that were a regular occurrence.

    Maybe guys need to pull a Lysistrata of their own. Stop cold approaching random attractive women, applying to be their suitors, etc. And for god sake, stop sending loads of messages to women on online dating sites.

    Or, maybe guys need to become much more picky as well.

    • Yes. I had a discussion with my boyfriend once where he rented on and on about how much power beautiful women have and how unfair it is. I finally told him, “Men give beautiful women their power. If men would stop treating beautiful women like they are the most special creations on the planet, and their power will disappear.”. He responded, “but we can’t help it, it’s how we are.” Well, in that case, stop complaining, I guess!

      Personally I also think it is unfair that beautiful women get so much handed to them. I’m an average looking woman, and I never had bazillions of guys chasing after me. Yes, actually, I did have to throw myself on guys’ cocks, to use the words of an earlier comment, to be completely crass about it. When I became desperate to lose my virginity, at age 20, I had to talk the guy I was casually dating at the time into having sex with me! He didn’t want to at first! a couple of my casual encounters in college & grad school involved ME chasing after the guy and having to actually persuade him. How do you think this makes me feel, when I read all these comments about how men find 80% of women attractive and how they are so desperate for sex that they will have sex with anyone? What kind of an uggo am I? :-)

      Granted, I was able to persuade the guys I wanted sex with to have sex with me, and I’m not denying it is way way easier for a woman to do that, than a man. So, that’s a female privilege. But it didn’t leave me feeling too good about myself. This idea that most women are just wallowing in constant positive attention from men is so wrong. Certain women are wallowing in that attention, many women are overlooked and ignored.

      So, back to my original point — beautiful women don’t have inherent power, they only have the power men give me.

      • *the power men give THEM

        Autocorrect again,

      • I’ve found a lot of women attractive, have wanted to have sex with them but didn’t due to shyness and also many are taken. So you may not be uggo like you think, but there could be a lot of shy guys around, I know quite a few…

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        If men would stop treating beautiful women like they are the most special creations on the planet, and their power will disappear.

        Well, that’s why PUA’s advocate “negging” as a way to take attractive women down a notch.

        • But PUA’s still pedastalize beautiful women. Negging is just a technique. The whole PUA movement is built around the worship of attractive women as the pinnacle of — well, the pinnacle of everything that’s of any value in life, apparently. I find the whole PUA philosophy to be kind of demeaning to men, actually, like men who don’t have beautiful women on their arms are worthless scum.

          • Sarah,
            I agree there is a lot of PUA theory that isn’t very cool.

            That being said I think there is a lot of good PUA articles that can teach men how women’s mode of attraction works.

            Often my wife and I have been laying in bed while I gently cup or caress her curves. It gives me pleasure and makes me feel closer to her.

            From what I have read women typically don’t fondle and caress women in the same way. When a woman wants to feel a man’s “manhood” she doesn’t literally grab his junk but instead gives him a shit test.

            The most insightful thought-provoking article on women’s attraction was from a PUA sight and I paraphrase below:

            Women just don’t want to admit that they want a powerhouse larger than life man who grabs hold of life and doesn’t let go. A man charming, confident, a leader among men. It seems to me what gets women’s motor running is to know that they have a confident man who won’t needle or whine or give in to unfair petulant demands from her (after all how is a man who bends and breaks easily to his woman supposed to be a protector?).

            The way women “feel” a man’s manhood is to give him a shit test. If he passes she knows she is still with a real man (and she gets lusty towards him). If he fails, her vajayjay will get dryer than the mohabi desert.

            I don’t necessarily agree with a lot of PUA articles, but I think it’s important to stop falsely attributing noble or pure motives to women’s interactions with men and admit they are just as self-serving as men’s actions are.

            There are some excellent sights like “married man sex life” by Athol Kay. There are also some gems in some of the other PUA sights, but like you said you have to wade through a lot of caca.

  9. Solution? Get a hooker. Problem solved.

    It probably is harder for men. Men seem to be a lot less picky about who they have sex with and what they find attractive. I would say women want to have sex with someone they like or to gain something while men flat out want to have sex. Men could just save themselves all the trouble of trying to find sex by getting a ‘pro.’

    • But that’s illegal in many areas and there are quite a few articles trying to assert most are forced into the life against their will somehow which doesn’t sit right with me. It’s legal here so hopefully it’s better but it is one issue that holds me back from procuring their services. Plus there is shame in having to pay for sex cuz you can’t find it elsewhere…

      • Archy:
        “Plus there is shame in having to pay for sex cuz you can’t find it elsewhere…”
        I think guys should be more ashamed of lying and sweet talking women into bed.

        With prostitution men get:
        NSA sex
        variety, as much as he can afford
        Not having to hear some woman talk about her problems

        This solves more problems than it creates.
        ~~~~~~~
        “and there are quite a few articles trying to assert most are forced into the life against their will somehow which doesn’t sit right with me.”
        Some people would argue the same is true for some porn stars. Would that stop you from watching porn? Some porn stars have meltdowns, complain about the horrible work conditions, contract stds (4x as likely as prostitutes ive heard), etc., yet the porn industry booms.
        (This is a gripe I have with society in general-street prostitution is taboo, but porn is great.)

        • I generally watch webcam girls and can talk to them but you do have a point. I feel it’s worse for being with prostitute forced against her will than watching porn of someone coerced into it though both are bad. I’m not sure how it’s meant to work though for forced porn, they’d have to be pretty good at acting? The ones I see are all smiles n happiness and are enthusiastic which kinda leads me to believe they want to be pornstars. But I haven’t heard the arguments of women forced into porn anywhere near as often as I have for prostitution, haven’t heard of trafficking for pornstars but I have for prostitution which may be biasing my view and making me worried disproportionately.

          Would a sex worker be offended if I asked if they were in the job willingly?

          • I’m not sure how it’s meant to work though for forced porn, they’d have to be pretty good at acting?”
            Most porn isn’t even good acting. All they have to do is look at the camera, moan, groan, scream. Actually, what porn I have seen i find quite hilarious because oftentimes its so obvious they are putting on a show. Of course, they are going to smile-the director is telling them to.

            I’m not sure if there’s any element of human trafficking, but they can definitely coerce a girl into doing something she doesnt want to. For example, girl may have agreed to do bukakke with 15 guys, but then 75 guys show up (really a story I read, though they numbers may be different). Then they’ll get an 18 year old girl to sign a contract. She doesn’t want to, but they tell her she has to because she signed the paper. What 18 year old is contract savvy?

            • I completely support legalization of Prostitution.

              It’s about time society acknowledges that sex is much more difficult to obtain for men and considers paid sex to be acceptable outlet for men.

              I understand that paid sex can never measure up to the sex which is based on mutual attraction BUT its a lot better than nothing at all.

              Whats hurtful is that the main disapproval of paid sex comes from women and feminists. Its unfair if you think of it. They dont want us to have this alternative either.

            • Keith:
              My thing is this: prostitution is prostitution. Why should someone get special protection for having paid sex just because its on camera as opposed to a private location?

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      Solution? Get a hooker. Problem solved.

      I don’t know what country you live in, but here in the States, it’s not exactly an easy thing to do.

      However, perhaps feminists should keep this in mind. If they’re tired of unwanted male attention and advances, maybe they should lobby to legalize prostitution.

  10. I have very little experience with casual sex vs. monogamous relationship-sex. For a while I’d read articles about it and say Hmm, that sounds like it could be fun in the right situation; were I single, I might consider it.
    But by now I’m pretty convinced that the whole idea just isn’t worth it. Between PUAs and Nice Guys(TM) and Creeps and Picky Bitches and Double Standards and Friends With Benefits and now Marketplace Bias…it just seems like a whole lot more trouble than it’s worth, and I’m having trouble understanding why any man OR woman even wants to set foot in this marketplace.

    • Trust issues, polygamous people who don’t want to stick to monogamy, not ready to settle down for a relationship. Don’t forget that many of those issues also exist for relationships too, it’s hard enough getting casual sex but probably just as hard for men to get a relationship.

  11. Mr Supertypo says:

    I admit I never had to much trouble finding sex. But I know far to many guys who are frustrated in this, who cant even get close to a woman without getting turned down. Sex isnt a easy thing to find, no matter what the media tells you. Its hard work, if it was easy there want be any prostitutes, PUA’s, dating coach’es, hairdressers, maybe even clothes would be out. And whoever tryes to squeeze male privilege into this, is totally off road.

  12. I am starting to wonder if the difference between women and men is not in the genes. I think that if we guys thought about girls we would think in grays. Most girls are basically a maybe. Girls see guys in black or white, yes or no. This goes on because we guys are the ones that approach.
    I wonder if we would switch roles for a month. As a test, if we guys would become as picky as women? We probably wouldn’t see our self as picky either.
    The best thing for us guys is just stop fighting it. I want to change the system as much as any other guy. It’s unfair and outright harmful to men. But I feel that changing it is harder than beating it.

  13. A complex question, but guys ease of getting sex generally increases over time, and for pure casual sex the availability of single women 30 + (and birth control) has done wonders for the chances of getting laid with little to no strings or hassles. If one’s lucky you can end up with booty callable friends with benefits for months or years on end.
    I also find that increasing knowledge (Game, PUA, Ladder theory etc) and technology such as Blender, personals, craigslist and texts are great at facilitating casual sex. etc.

    One could argue that men are generally less fussy about who they will have sex with than women, but for this to be a positive the guy has to be fairly desirable and able to get access to some, and preferably desirable women.
    Another factor is that men seem to be engaging in more casual sexual contact with other men, blowjobs etc, as the stigma is lower than in the past and as technology makes it far easier to organize casual meets.

    • Another thing that is improving the landscape is that women desire, expect, and are allowed to have a sex life and sexual appetite these days, so regardless of how picky and “hard to get” they play, some guys will end up being its 11 o’clock on Friday night, and your “Mr Right for Now”.

  14. The problem isn’t just bias, it’s the way that bias is dealt with. When nature hands women a raw deal, all of society is expected to contort itself in ways to mitigate the rawness of that deal. We lower strength requirements for physical jobs when women apply to them. We construct entire welfare schemes that apply only to women and their children. We institute child support systems to help women that are ‘abandoned’ by men. Men are told, repeatedly, to be less shallow, not to overstep our boundaries, never to do anything that might make a woman uncomfortable.

    When men are handed a raw deal, all of society shrugs it’s shoulders, tells them to ‘man up’, and walks away. Teachers are known to favor students of their own gender, yet despite the fact that most teachers are women, men are never given a hand up. When men lose their jobs, they’ll be lucky to collect unemployment for a few weeks before they are called into the office, given the third degree, and strongly exhorted to get off the dole. No other help is given at all. Prostitution is illegal, mostly due to the influence of female voters (prostitution was illegal almost nowhere before women’s suffrage), so when men are ‘abandoned’, they are pretty well screwed. Women are never told to be less shallow – they are instead taught to never ‘settle’, no matter how unrealistic their desires may be. They are taught that making men uncomfortable is the height of empowerment.

    “That’s just the way it is” would be a whole lot easier to take if applied to everyone equally, instead of just men.

    • They dont even let us have ‘paid sex’ as an alternative because it hurts the sensitivities of the common women and it ‘destroys families’ .

  15. Back in my gloriously more attractive years of my life (when I was tiny and cute and had that young ditzy thing going on) my boyfriend and I would go out and pick up people together (open relationship). Spent a lot of time at parties and bars and what not doing this on the weekends. He was a male of above average attractiveness according to societal standards in the US. He was also quite charming. He still had to work to get a girl to go home with him. And I honestly watched him go through a lot of girls in a night before one took the bait and went with him. I even had an easier time picking up girls than he did and certainly men back then.

    I am no longer that cute young thing and when I want to I find it’s incredibly easy for me to find a casual sexual encounter. And having observed the mating habits of people in the bars where I live now. Women who are not as conventionally attractive (per society’s standards) are going home with guys at the end of the night. And not just the only guy that would take them. Now it’s a small town and I know some of these ladies have some reputations for doing some things that other ladies won’t. But still it’s easier for them than it is for the men. Especially if the women are outgoing and open about their motives.

    I’m looking at this topic from strictly a casual one time no strings attached sexual encounter perspective. Again I see the blurring of the lines between a sexual encounter and relationships. I have found in my years on/off of casual sex that both men and women will sleep with people that they are not likely to get into relationships with. Pretty much every single person I have a casual sexual encounter with is not someone I would get into a relationship with and I would feel it’s a safe bet that those people would say the same about me. In my experience people look for different qualities in the people they settle down with versus the people they want to screw for a night. Some people get this confused and feel one night of sex means a relationship is on the horizon.

    People over complicate this no strings attached sexual encounter thing I find too. But I do agree, as a woman, that it is more difficult for any man of any level of attractiveness to secure a woman for a night of sex than it is for a woman of any level of attractiveness.

  16. Chris Anthony says:

    Most of the women I see posting seem to bring relationships into this conversation totally breaking subject with “casual sex”. Are we forgetting what the OP’s question was. And that the answer is yes. I think much can be accomplished if we stayed on subject. Lots of good things being said nonetheless but mostly off topic.

    • I think this whole issue of bringing relationships into the conversation is indicative of the reality of looking for casual sex. To me casual sex and a relationship are two distinct things. To some people casual sex is initially no strings attached sex to be followed by a relationship. I know I run into men like that and men I know into casual sex run into a lot of women like that. Those men are then branded pigs. I’m branded a slut. But the reality is (at least for me) I’m open and honest about my intentions from the get go. It’s a one time thing. Most all the men I know state up front they don’t want a relationship. But people hear what they want to hear. They hear the sweet talking and avoid the reality.

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