This is a comment by John D on the post “Slut Walk: Why They Walk, Why I Walk“.
Young boys are permitted to explore sex in most circles and attain positive status when they do. Some excerpts from the article and my responses:
What do these two excerpts:
“We want to reimagine ideas of masculinity and provide examples of healthy role models in behaviour” and “My focus as a male ally is to stop men and boys from using words as violence”
Have to do with this excerpt:
“Rachel Ehmke, a 13-year-old seventh grader in Mantorville, Minn., died April 29 after hanging herself at her home. The months leading up to the tragedy were a whirlwind of peer abuse instances, her parents say… the word ‘slut’ was scrawled across her gym locker… the same group of girls reportedly threatened Rachel and kept calling her a ‘prostitute’ though she had never kissed a boy…two days before Rachel’s death, an anonymous text was sent to other students at the school…”
Oh, they have nothing to do with a girl committing suicide due to relational aggression from other *girls*. This is one of the problems I have with slutwalk. It’s more gender essentialism of the same type that comes from almost all radical feminists.
Masculinity needs fixing, but femininity is just fine. The fact is, neither is broken. What you have is dysfunctional people from both genders doing dysfunctional things in different ways.
While it is a proven fact that dysfunctional men are much more prone to using physical violence over dysfunctional women (key word–dysfunctional. Slutwalk won’t stop rapes because only dysfunctional men rape. All the masculine shaming in the world won’t stop rape), dysfunctional women (and even some very functional) use relational aggression. Keep in mind, when men do use violence their victims is men over women at a 4 to 1 ratio.
I see nothing in slutwalk that would address what happened to this poor girl. Removing the stigma of the word slut, simply means her *female* assailants would have used something else to smear her reputation.
Studies show that girls (and women) are far more prone to relational aggression than men (gossipping, clique-building, ostracization etc.). Studies also show that it is most often the most well-behaved, popular and centralized girls who do this (A students, prom queens etc.). I would hypothesize that this goes on well into adulthood as it is much less visible and hard to patrol and punish (thus establishing consequences and reducing the behavior).
This hypothesis seems to be correct as in the CDC’s report on IPV, 50% more men (over women) report that their female counterparts exhibit controlling or shaming behavior. Mothers commit 70% of all parental child abuse and parental child slayings.
Can we please stop with the gender essentialism that says men are bad/oppressors and women are good/victims? PLEASE?
Excerpts: “There is a viral and infectious desecration of women worldwide” “We deny women and girls the right to happiness, equality and even to life itself.”
In point of fact, this is done to everybody. Men are 80% the victims of all violence. Were the CDC report to include “forced to penetrate” in its rape definition, then 40% of all rapes are women raping men.
Another excerpt: “Young boys are permitted to explore sex in most circles and attain positive status when they do.”
What is hard for most who engage in radfem-style gender essentialism to understand is that men face a lot of shaming too. But, since men’s gender role revolves around action instead of inaction, a lot of gender warriors seem to have a hard time seeing it.
The flip side to the excerpt is that when a man lacks the skills to successfully secure female companionship and masturbates to porn or engages in transactions with prostitutes he is shamed: http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/is-creep-shaming-real/
When a man walks away from a fight he is shamed. When a man fails to support his family (for no fault of his own) he is shamed. When a man fails to stick up for himself (whether against a wife or a stranger) he is shamed (hen-pecked, pussy-whipped ring any bells?)
When a man face severe emotional problems he is shamed. I heard an NPR story about a soldier who suffered from ptsd/depression who’s military psychiatrist refused to diagnose him as such, and said if he didn’t get back to his unit he would be jailed for insubordination and be somebody’s bitch. His suicide note said: I don’t want to be somebody’s bitch. The father was lied to about the psychiatrist’s hand in the suicide and lied to about the existence of the note. Surprise: men are committing suicide for being shamed too!
The idea that men have no gender tightrope to walk is a broken concept I see repeated in a lot of radical feminist ideas, and I see this article walking right in line with this.
The women who engage in slutwalk are free to do whatever they want. If they believe they are really changing the world for the better, then I hope they really do some good. All I see is more gender essentialism woman = good, man = bad bs.
Photo credit: Flickr / David Shankbone
About the Editors
I agree with the main sentiment of your post, that the old women=good/men=bad face-off is wildly unhelpful, but I can’t help but feel you’re missing the point of the Slutwalks. When women talk about reclaiming the word ‘slut’ they’re not talking about the (obviously horrible) issue of young girls taking their own lives. Slutwalk is a reaction against attitudes to women who are raped or sexually harassed. Specifically that. Not ‘relational aggression’ in its most general definition. Your comment that ‘Slutwalk won’t stop rapes because only dysfunctional men rape’ is spot on, unfortunately, but also misses the point of the walks: no one thinks (at least I don’t think they do) that by marching on a walk you will stop rape; the issue is rather to raise awareness of how women are treated by the legal system/official channels when they ARE raped.
Your sweeping generalisation of ‘almost all radical feminists’ is buying into the same logic that you’re criticising these ‘radical feminists’ for in their apparently sweeping condemnation of men.
I applaud your attempt to raise awareness of male rape because I feel this is massively under-discussed, but your post has an undercurrent to it that unfortunately reads like the classic misogynist’s defence of any form of male-on-female harassment: ‘It happens to men too’. Seriously, women know this. The majority of ‘feminist’ women (and I’m not even sure how useful that label is these days) who are involved in consciousness-raising activity are smart enough to see that only dysfunctional men rape or harass, an awareness you seem keen to brush under the carpet.
I don’t think anyone disputes that slut-walks stated objective is 100% laudable. No one should have justice denied them because they appear to violate some narrowly defined, and arbitrarily discriminatory, expectation of how a person should behave.
But John’s point is that such “good” movements addressing gender issues are typically hijacked by misandrists that like to divide the protagonists and antagonists along clear gender lines for no particular reason that it fits their narrow world view that the gender binary exists to oppress women and privilege men everywhere and always. The end result is what should be a clearly rightful cause ends up contentious and offensive to half the population.
So, its not the objective of Slut Walk that fails, its the means.
Have you got any evidence that Slutwalks have been “hijacked by misandrists that like to divide the protagonists and antagonists along clear gender lines for no particular reason that it fits their narrow world view that the gender binary exists to oppress women and privilege men everywhere and always.”
From the beginning, I think one of the great things about Sultwalks have been that they are very open and inclusive of men, compared to the similar ‘reclaim the night’ type events which most certainly match the description above.
I’ve never seen any written propaganda or interviews with organisers that have suggested any of the man-hating divisiveness you allege.
I know there are some (QuietRiotGirrl on this site, for example) who argue that any attempts to frame rape in a social context of misogyny etc are de facto misandrist or anti-men. I profoundly disagree. I think rape (partly) occurs because of prevailing attitudes about deserving victims and the whole ‘slut’ narrative. If a guy thinks of some women as “sluts” then yes, Slutwalk is partly aimed at him. That’s not Slutwalk’s fault, it is his.
AllyF writes:
” I think rape (partly) occurs because of prevailing attitudes about deserving victims and the whole ‘slut’ narrative. If a guy thinks of some women as “sluts” then yes, Slutwalk is partly aimed at him. That’s not Slutwalk’s fault, it is his.”
That seems to suggest that functional men will and do rape. From what I have seen, only dysfunctional men rape. I don’t have the study easily at hand, but I remember when glenn sacks comment board was up I read a study somebody posted that showed the men who felt entitled to rape scored as dysfunctional in many areas of psychiatry. Many of the men who commit stranger rape have also committed other violent crimes against both men and women.
In other words men don’t commit rape due to male privilege or some such nonsense. Dysfunctional men who have problems abuse everybody male and female.
Framing rape as being (even partly) due to the views of functional men (or rape culture) is just as destructive and incorrect as framing DV against women by the duluth patriarchy wheel.
Evidence shows that the major contributing factors to violence is exacerbating influences like drugs and alcohol. Duluth wheel style counseling is provenly not as helpful as anger management and impulse control for both people of the couple (80% of DV is not one-sided and is more accurately termed domestic combat in which both partners escalate and make unprovoked attacks) as well as removing the exacerbating influences (drugs and alcohol).
Hi AllyF
I would agree, slutwalks has dialed down the essentialist gender profiling of victims and abusers that “take back the night” explicitly indulged, to that end it seeks to expand its audience.
But you can’t deny that the gender essentialists are still in that camp, dividing and alienating would be supporters. Take one popular slutwalk slogan that made the rounds in the blogosphere “teach men not to rape”. It could have said “teach rapists not to rape”, or “criminals not to rape”, or “people not to rape”..but they chose “men”. Perhaps its not representative of the movement, but it came to be associated anyway. Regardless, the movements hasn’t really explicitly attempted to distance itself from that posture.
“‘It happens to men too’. Seriously, women know this. ”
I get the feeling from this then that women don’t particularly give a damn about men then based on the sheer lack of awareness for male victims of rape then. If women know this, and especially women in these anti-rape campaigns, why are there no campaigns showing female perpetrators? If there are…please show me, I’d love to see even 1 poster showing a female perpetrator. There is a reason there are so many comments on these kinds of sites saying men are victims too, it’s because these men are desperate to get attention to these issues and it seems the major anti-abuse campaigns really don’t pay much attention to it. I see so many violence against women, rape against women campaigns and haven’t seen a single damn campaign for men apart from showing a male perpetrator.
What are YOU prepared to do about this? My suggestion to all men is do what the women have done: get organized, write letters, scatter pamphlets, etc…..do what the feminists of old had to do to get started. If you want to be heard then speak…don’t just type on forums and blogs complaining. It is not the job of women to make posters for you, write letters for you, remind the public about YOU. We can guide you…but we will not be responsible for speaking on your behalf. Join SlutWalk and speak about your experiences “as men”… Form male only support groups and even offer all inclusive support groups. There are those in the feminist community who hear you…and we can help, but you (Men, MRA’s) have to be willing to listen first. Crawl before you can walk and things will happen in due time. Good luck.
It’s my understanding there are already men involved in the various campaigns, I am just surprised it hasn’t happened sooner. What am I prepared to do? I’m still learning of what I can do, who to letter write to, etc. I’m also busy as hell battling physical n mental illness so I’m not quite in the position yet to do much, I do hope there are others especially those who’ve had experience in the campaigns doing something for this.
Deena:
A lot of men helped those original feminists. What I hear a lot from feminists is that: “Women’s issues are everybody’s issues.” The idea is that men have a duty to lend a hand (and many did, in and out of government. The equal pay act and sexual harassment laws happened within a few short years that feminists rallied around them. In contrast, fathers get primary custody 6% of the time versus mothers 80% and that rate has been frozen for nearly FORTY YEARS).
The prevailing wisdom from a lot of feminists seems to be:
Women’s issues are everybody’s concern, but men’s issues certainly aren’t my concern.
Remember: what you reap is what you sow. The riots in UK have largely been tied to a generation of men being raised in fatherless homes.
Very very late, the UK parliament is now discussing passing laws guaranteeing fathers a right to see their kids post-divorce.
It shouldn’t take riots for women to be concerned about men’s issues.
I’m sorry if my comment sounded dismissive @Archy – it really wasn’t intended to be. Rather, I was reacting to the irritating suggestion made throughout this article that the majority of women involved in this activity are so darn wrapped up in themselves and ‘smashing down the patriarchy’ that we’re unable to sympathise with any men’s issues. I would think the fact that there are several female commenters on this thread – and throughout the site – would suggest otherwise. If any women have made you feel that your opinions aren’t valid or applicable to conversations about these matters than I apologise on behalf of my gender! The majority of feminist activists are delighted to involve men who understand their concerns in their campaigns.
Incidentally, there’s a poster campaign here in the UK at the moment encouraging male rape victims to speak out, which – though I’m not sure they’ve worded it quite right and as a consequence it comes across as slightly tasteless to me personally: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/20/real-men-get-raped-campaign-london_n_1288823.html
Thanks for the link, I guess it’s a start. My faith atm is pretty diminished, I do feel like men have been long ignored in the sexual abuse (hell all abuse) campaigns, but it’s great to see campaigns starting up.
“The majority of feminist activists are delighted to involve men who understand their concerns in their campaigns.”
I guess I am curious if these are anti-rape campaigns for both genders or one usually?
Good point – I have to say that all those I know of are gender-specific
I’m thinking of male support for things like anti-street harassment campaigns, but there’s certainly room for a more all-encompassing entity. Hell, it all boils down to having respect for other people really, regardless of gender.
Jen writes:
“I’m sorry if my comment sounded dismissive @Archy – it really wasn’t intended to be. Rather, I was reacting to the irritating suggestion made throughout this article that the majority of women involved in this activity are so darn wrapped up in themselves and ‘smashing down the patriarchy’ that we’re unable to sympathise with any men’s issues.”
Jen, I’m just an avg joe, not an author. My comment was pulled from the slutwalk article and turned into a post.
The problem I have is the anti-male, anti-masculinity, anti-male libido excerpts I posted from the original author’s comments.
Remove the side-purpose of slutwalk to “redefine masculinity” and I would have much less opposition (it would still be very woman-centered and not address any of the shaming that happens against men, or the shaming against women by women, but if that’s what the slutwalkers want to concentrate on fine).
Once again, remove the anti-male sentiment and I wouldn’t have a care.
Hi Jen,
You wrote:
“I agree with the main sentiment of your post, that the old women=good/men=bad face-off is wildly unhelpful, but I can’t help but feel you’re missing the point of the Slutwalks. When women talk about reclaiming the word ‘slut’ ”
Then the directors and organizers and pro-slutwalk bloggers need to drop the language about “redefining masculinity”.
Stop demonizing men, masculinity, and male libido and we have a winner (winner, chicken dinner–couldn’t resist).
Thanks for your reply, JohnD. Despite all the comments, I do think your article’s an important one simply for opening up a dialogue between women and men about this. Just a note: I’ve personally followed news of the Slutwalks from their beginning, and haven’t myself been aware of an overt message about redefining masculinity – BUT that may just be my experience and may be a US/UK difference.
That was the message of this male blogger who wrote the original article. Maybe that was just his take, but I tend to doubt it.
I wish you could walk in my shoes (and they are not “slutty” at all) for one day…and you could experience what it’s like to wear a business suit and ride the subway or commuter train and have random men try to grope parts of your body (just because you are an attractive woman)…or walk on the street in broad daylight and have sickening, perverted things whispered at you or kissy noises made in your direction….as if my college and grad school degree don’t matter at all …the fact that some horny guy needs an Asian prostitute and assumes that any random Asian woman on the street or on public transportation must be one instead of a career professional with various degrees hanging in her office…It’s the disrespect and the assumptions that piss me off…My husband has the same exact degrees and he does not get the same treatment (and I assume it’s just because he is a man)…Perhaps I should dress up like a man just so that I don’t get harassed out in public!
Things are never gonna change because the man who commit those act don’t want to change.
The conduct of these men is wrong, pure and simple.
However, I will always maintain that masculinity is a very good thing. Men should not back away from their maleness, period.
Too many women (who are both confused and confusing) simply want to eviscerate our masculinity.
Nonsense!!!
Those men’s behavior is inexcusable. I would not want to have that experience and am glad that I don’t.
“….as if my college and grad school degree don’t matter at all …the fact that some horny guy needs an Asian prostitute and assumes that any random Asian woman on the street or on public transportation must be one instead of a career professional with various degrees hanging in her office…”
Small bone to pick here, though. It shouldn’t matter what your education or career is in terms of getting a modicum of respect. I hope you are not suggesting that one function of graduate degrees is to place one above mistreatment that other people face, or the corollary, that it’s more acceptable for less educated women to be harassed. (Is that what grad schools are telling applicants now?)
Besides, one can actually be a sex worker AND have advanced degrees. They are not mutually exclusive.
I have been street harassed since the age of 11 or 12 riding the subways to school…..it’s a powerless feeling being put down like that by random men in the street/on public transportation…I just always thought that it would magically stop now that I am all grown up and wear expensive business attire….I have grown up but the street harassers are just as crude….
So, yeah, I don’t think the 11 year old middle schooler girl that I was should be picked on any more than the professional career woman that I am now…. it just makes me angry that strange horny guys in the street would disrespect a woman, who otherwise commands great respect at work….as if they assume that all girls must be prostitutes….
I have an 11.5 yo son and I fear for him walking in the streets….but probably more so if he was a girl…
Men account for 80% the targets of violence of stranger violence.
I myself have been backed into fights that I didn’t want and couldn’t escape from.
There is a counter-balance to women getting oggled and groped. And that is that weak or meek men get threatened and bullied.
Don’t assume the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, because many times it isn’t.
Men are also 80% of the suicides. I would suspect because our culture largely shames men when they talk about their victimhood.
And I wish that you could walk in mine, so I could call you a pig based on what some random man who I’ve never met and will never meet did.
Leia writes:
I wish you could walk in my shoes (and they are not “slutty” at all) for one day
I posted a response about some of my difficulties as a male (mostly dealing with aggression of other males) but for some reason it’s still in moderation, or the mods saw fit to delete it for some reason.
Trust me, the grass is not always greener. I have faced physical aggression simply for being male and in the wrong space at the wrong time.
I have never street harassed any woman, but I have to admit that women do get it a lot.
However, men also get physical or escalating verbal aggression from other men in public. So, don’t for a second believe that men’s lives are carefree.
I do hope folks read my original article, and check out previous work…comments like this highlighted one from the article are SO off the mark. My work has been to highlight the impossible ‘gender tightrope’ men and boys walk on a daily basis. The costs of patriarchy for men show they have an invested interest in ending gender stereotypes and gender roles that create impossible standards for men and devalue and denigrate the women and the feminine in every corner of society. They should also want to create a world where women and girls are not subject to the hate and violence they face…but most of these so-called men’s equality groups refuse to acknowledge that piece.
That “gender tightrope” was created by both men and woman, woman have also played a part in their devaluing.
“They should also want to create a world where women and girls are not subject to the hate and violence they face…but most of these so-called men’s equality groups refuse to acknowledge that piece.”
Maybe they’re too busy trying to avoid the violence THEY face? You do realize men die 4-6x more often from violence than women and suffer an absolute shitload? It’s not just women and girls who face violence. Maybe people need to acknowledge that lil fact…
Archy just said what I wanted to say.
Believe it or not, many many men’s life experience also revolve around being a victim too. But, when men voice their pain they are sissies and wimps, and that comes from women and men and a good deal of feminists even (in my personal experience).
If the author can take an event like slutwalk and make it about some sinister agenda of feminists to oppress men, then I’d say the dysfunction lies with him. Why do some people see the battle for respect and equality as a zero sum game? No need to be so resentful.
“Why do some people see the battle for respect and equality as a zero sum game? No need to be so resentful.”
Because some of the members of the movement treat it as such and do act like %*##)#)#’s. This can leave a bitter taste in someones mouth, and too often some people judge the entire movement on the actions of a few. Doesn’t excuse the behaviour, just trying to give reasons as to why it may happen.
Raindrizzle:
I stand by what I said. If slutwalk wants to avoid criticism, then they should restrict their pontifications to only helping victims, not making pronouncements about “redefining masculinity”.
As I said, masculinity isn’t broken. Rape or even slut-shaming is about dysfunctionality *NOT* masculinity as the case of the poor girl who committed suicide due to taunting from a group of *girls* clearly shows.
I’m not picking a fight w/slutwalks, slutwalks are picking a fight with men (through demonization). Criticism is not resentment.
Remove the anti-male, anti-masculinity sentiment and I have no beef w/slutwalk.
“While it is a proven fact that dysfunctional men are much more prone to using physical violence over dysfunctional women (key word–dysfunctional.”
Dutton found that the rates of violence and aggression were equal, its just that women’s tends to be in the home, against family and close friends and is often covert, and men’s is outside of the home and more often overt.
Its time to sweep away the superstition and the lies, and look at violence holistically, particularly at where it starts, in the home during early socialization.
Eoghan.
When I wrote that, I was thinking in terms of simple assault of strangers. Without delving too deeply into the numbers, I am aware that women do a lot of covert violence (like poisoning).
But when you look at murder men are 80% of the murder victims and (if I remember correctly) those murder victims are assaulted by men like 90% of the time.
Without going into the numbers, I don’t think the numbers come out even, especially when you look towards the highest levels of violence. This isn’t superstition.
If you want to compile some evidence in the form of links that include dv, stranger violence, and parent on kid violence and make a tally or compilation to show that women and men come out equal, go ahead.
But, I have briefly gone over the dept of justice numbers and from what I have seen, I’m pretty sure that men still edge out women even when you include the hidden areas where women do more violence (like parental slayings of children).
If you have some evidence please post it.
I applaud John D for his efforts to raise awareness, however futile. The fact is, we can only have one victim at a time. Women are it and probably will be it for a long time yet.
No one cares about men and that’s just the way it is. Be sure to keep your elbows up in the corners guys because the referee ain’t gonna be calling any penalities on your agressors. You’ll have to stick up for yourselves.
As for your sons ladies, well, eventually they will go to the wolves. Either they become one or become lunch.
I am of course engaging in hyperbole, but not by much. No one does care about men and them’s just the facts. We see it (or fail to see and thereby demonstrate it) all the time.
So it goes…
Except for this, rather popular website called The Good Men Project…oh and another pretty dang popular blog called No Seriously What About Teh Menz. Not to mention the ways in which mainstream feminism is concerning itself with men and boys.
I’m being snarky…but I hope you get my point.
All which, if we’re being honest with ourselves, amount to squat. Where are the laws? Where are the institutions? Where are the court cases? Where is the reform in family law? Where are the media saying “Men, women and children were [killed, injured, harmed, etc...]“?
Any one of the foregoing would be something amounting to caring. Our blatherings here on the GMP and NSWATM don’t amount to anything, except perhaps a bit of an awakening. I’ll be satisfied when I see at least one of the items mentioned above. I’m not holding my breath on seeing any one of those before the end of this decade in the Western world. If anything, I expect to see more attention to women and children where it’s always gone. Also, stuff for rich men, because they can pay for it (payola goes a long way…). For the rest of us average chumps, we’ll get what we always got, a kick in the behind and demands for more. Such is our lot in life. But at least we get Superbowl Sunday if we don’t have to go to the Mother in Law’s, so all is not lost right?
The Wet One
Wet One:
I’m not sure I would paint it so direly. Fathers and families seems to really be on nitro and is ramping up nicely. I believe they do this because their message *really is* egalitarian “we believe children should have a right to both parents post-divorce”.
They have actually put their money where their mouth is by paying for the lawyer fees of a soldier mom who’s husband used her deployment as an excuse to change the custody when she got back (F&F has passed laws in about 6 states so far protecting soldier parents from having their deployment used as an excuse upon return to change custody).
F&F is starting to get some big donors from hollywood and other people who have witnessed first hand the misandrist family courts. They are getting a lot of face-time w/politicians and passing laws.
They helped put the minnesota shared parenting initiative to a successful vote (although the governor veto’d it).
We’re getting there. As with feminists in the 60′s men will have to do it with the help of good-hearted women who want a good standard of living for their sons and other male family matters and are willing to look past the goody-bag of rights w/no responsibilities that radfems keep selling women.
It may seem futile sometimes, but things are slowly changing.
As a feminist, I would suggest that it is important to problematize the gender roles of both males and females. It’s not that femininity and masculinity do not have good qualities as well, but that when we are assigned a gender and then expected to behave in a certain fashion, it is limiting to who we are, and who we develop into. Hence why the gender binary is so problematic.
“What you have is dysfunctional people from both genders doing dysfunctional things in different ways.”
This encapsulates a lot of what I’ve read in debates about gender here. I could have saved myself a lot of time and energy putting it so succinctly. Well said.
Women of the GMP:
So in the name of reaching a higher level of mutual empathy, can I ask you how you would feel if mass protesters took to the street to raise awareness and demand attention for universally appealing issues like high unemployment, incarceration, suicide, premature death and injury rates; low educational attainment rates, limited parental and reproductive rights. Probably totally supportive, right?
Then suppose the protesters identified explicitly as masculine, not just the sex of the protesters, who happen to be overwhelmingly male, but in the use of symbols, artifacts, clothing and colors. You’re probably feeling somewhat excluded but still supportive given the alignment of the issues at hand.
Then suppose those protesters directed their message to a group you identify with, and perceived to be the cause of their problems. They talked broadly of the problem of women in the third person, of feminism, femininity and some vague gendered power structure called matriarchy. They carried signs saying “teach women not to…hit me or my children, to abuse drugs or alcohol, to send me to die in a foreign land or on the factory floor, to cheat on me, to fear me, to hate me, or prejudge me. Teach women not to fixate on materiality, use sex to manipulate me, or deny me access to my children”.
I’d imagine at this point, you’d be feeling pretty alienated, singled out and perhaps even, threatened. You’d probably feel disinclined to support such a movement. How would you honestly feel?