This comment was from Joan on the post “In Defense of Psycho Bitches from Hell“
I think guys get the wrong impression quite often. Kind gestures get misread all the time.
1.) I was at a gas station and a man and I started a conversation about business-stuff. He seemed interested in our conversation, so I handed him a business card. I was away from the phone all that day. When I got, home he left 4 messages on my machine…each one was increasingly personal. The last message sounded like he was in love with me…I called him back and was crystal-clear that it was strictly business and I even lied and told him I was gay. He never called again.
2.) Another story, I had contractor stop by for an estimate on my driveway and we talked about bricks and concrete…didn’t think any of it. The next evening, he stopped by with the written estimate and dropped off a bottle of wine. Then, on the third night, he stopped by, again but this time, in a shirt and tie and asked me out to dinner. And all I wanted was an estimate!!!
I have more of stories, but I won’t bore you. In all situations, I was not flirtatious or suggestive, just pleasant and kind. If you knew me, you find I’m kind and articulate, but I’m not flirty.
These are the weird things that women deal with and cause us to be guarded. Am I supposed to be rude and course with men? Or I should I start talking about Jesus and scare men off with Bible thumping? 🙂
Men, please weigh in on this.
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Photo by aerosolhalos / flickr
Joan…A closed mouth don’t get fed.
Joan…one thing is true,according to the experts, about humans and change:1) they only do it if they have to.2) they only do it if there is an alternative.3)there must be a path to change. Men have got to force the hand and frankly I am in shock and awe at the utter ineptitude of men. It’s pretty damn sorry.
Those are excellent points to frame these issues. No worries, we’ve all been drinking the same Kool-Aid and we just accepted these things as reality.
Change takes time, we didn’t create this overnight, but information moves a lot faster these days. I think you see clearly where the resistance is but that’s to be expected, simply human nature. These discussions are surfacing all over the place regarding gender issues…men (and women) need clarity and are frustrated, I suspect most men are ready for change or least in need of a modicum of respect. I’ll brainstorm…
Joan…As a practical matter,even IF women get the message,it will take at least a generation for change to happen. And liberal leaning men are hapless white knights who block efforts at progress. I am looking elsewhere- at different cultures- for mating.
Joan…As a practical matter,even IF women get the message,it will take at least a generation for change to happen. And liberal leaning men are hapless white knights who block efforts at progress.
Joan…I am fortunate to have lived on both sides of the hot third rail of dating.I went from unattractive to attractive in my lifetime. I feel for shy guys and I dislike the power imbalance and often times shallow,mean,indifference reactions they must negoiate to find companionship.Many times I think legal prostitution is at least part of the answer.Right now many 20 something college girls are being paid to provide”companionship” to sugardaddies.The lies,hypocrisies and flat out double sidedness of this stuff makes me want to stay the hell away from most women. I actually think the things you mention will work,… Read more »
Ogwriter–I hit frustration point too. Is it worth it to buck the system or just start speaking up when we hear disrespect for men? Collectively, our internal voice is telling us that women or feminists leading the social climate for the last 30 years has been, for the most part, a failure…it’s like girls-gone-wild, but not in a good way. Great news I as a woman, I now have the social right to be a sex worker, porn star, single, disrespect others in public, and not be judged, but I’m not allowed to bake cookies, use the word submit, be… Read more »
Jules… Yeah,with her it was all a convoluted ploy to have sex without coming right out admitting it.
I tell women to get rid of those lists of requirements, all it does is put conditions on someone. That’s probably why she got divorced in the first place. You’re better off without her.
Joan…you are on to something.I think an Occupy Wall St. type movement for relationships,perhaps, could work. I am learning more about social media and it can be,if used correctly, a good way to go.
Jules…Whats up friend?True story…I dated this golden uterus,who happens to be white,who left her marriage because her diamond parachute was unfaithful. We hit it off and fell in love,but she was used to his WEALTH-though she was a dental hygenist-and I’m middle income. She showed me her list of necessary qualities a man must possess to be with her-10-saying that I had all but one,enough money. Whatms love got to do with it?
May be that’s a good thing ask early…does she have a list? Run if she has a list.
Money is not love. I must be a good catch now that I’m hearing more, makes my day.
I am not surprised. You can screw her brains out, but for anything more serious it all about the $$$$. This is why I keep telling my white male friends it is not about money just to get sex. A man can have “pretty eyes” and get laid. He can have “soft hands’ and get laid. He can be ‘cute” and get laid. He can be “broke, busted, and disgusted” and get laid, so long as the woman finds him attractive..Just the way it is out here. A lot of these guys think they need to kill themselves to become… Read more »
Joan…there must be a way to connect likeminded men and women thirsty for change…any ideas?
Joan….I am often stunned by the passiveness of,in particular,men on this site,who seem to content to complain themselves into obscurity.
It gets better. Women’s Health Magazine had an article about couple’s therapy about 9 months ago. Young women are dragging our young men into couple’s therapy at 22-25 years old after 3 months of dating and are proud of this! Young girls are emasculating guys at 22 years old. What 22 year old man needs couple’s therapy and needs to hear that HE needs to change, from some chick he picked up 3 months ago? She’s bossing him around by month 3 and disrespecting who he is as a person. Women have lost their minds. Sounds like of shrews need… Read more »
I believe this site gets about 3 million hits per month? I’m sure the editors have some ideas too.
One possibity is have controlled or moderated theme discussions each week, using the strategic approach.
Google, Bing, Facebook, YouTube are large audiences.
Joan…If women on the sideline spoke up and whiteguys-mostly-stood up,things could change faster.
Joan…when ARE white guys gonna DO something besides bitch about bad things?If they chose to simply exercise their power things would change…tomorrow.It is increasingly difficult to respect the constant whining. When are white women-on the sidelines gonna-make their voices heard?
I’m making my Army of One Voice Sideline heard and I’ve slicing-dicing on the net, but it’s not enough.
This is one major site to unite men and women, and do it in a discussion, just like we did, instead of b-t session. Men are not getting solutions by bitching with other men…it only turns into pity party or derails.
Thoughts, feedback, suggestions?
Yup!!! One Big Ass Pity Party by a lot of white guys! I have lots of white male friends. Good friends. They think I have the edge because I am a black guy and today all women want black men (even gay white men)…..BS. Most people prefer their own. But, will screw whomever they feel like if the timing is right. I tell them all the time: f**k what you are reading about what women want. They don’t know what they want! Believe only about 30% of what you read….I also tell them women have sex for about 1000 reasons.… Read more »
Jules–exactly, people need to be careful of what they read. Because most women are not out there screwing like rabbits. There’s a minority of women servicing the majority of men and those women are dictating and shaping public thought about sex in some of these studies. If all women were that sexually active, men wouldn’t be having problems getting laid. Most men and women are reading this stuff, and saying ‘that’s not me, that’s not my reality’.
Raegus – First and foremost I want to say thank you for your insight, because you have been the star player in this discussion. I must agree those messages we all receive about what ‘woman should do’ and ‘what men should do’ is not limited to one site…it’s in our collective thinking. It’s almost as if women are the arbiters of gender behavior. We’re all confused by it. I used the Middle Eastern as the extreme example, because it’s the one pocket in the world that has been untouched by the western independent movement. I’m not surprised they resist western… Read more »
@Joan… Thanks for your wonderful contributions. You obviously see the big picture. While I have nothing against the feminist movement, I just think like so much else in the USA things have just gone too far. So, it makes so much out of balance. There are mixed messages everywhere. Nowhere are messages more confusing than over the issue of sex. “If men can’t get beyond a 3rd date or even hope for a decent girl, we got problems.” Third date! Are you kidding me. Most white men cannot GET a date. Being a black man mostly Hispanic and some white… Read more »
I didn’t know it was that bad for white guys, but I know they have a harder time. Please help them with game, I know they’re terrified.
This stuff crept up on all of us in the last 10ish years, I’m not surprised guys are depressed and angry. Nothing surprises me at this point about women.
I can’t say I’ve seen white guys have problems getting dates, shy guys however need all the help they can get. Why has the fear of rejection gotten so bad?
Archy—Could be past rejections or just media angst. Fear of rejection is universal…shy guys don’t corner the market on fear. It’s like anything, we’re not confident before we do something, it’s only after we do something we become confident. I recommend shy guys practice approaching women in ‘safe’ environments, like a grocery store. They can strike up conversations with women shoppers about how to cook broccoli or how to bake a cake. It takes the dating-pressure off by talking about neutral subjects. It’s good practice getting the marbles out the mouth. And to take it a little further, they can… Read more »
But didn’t you hear all the feminist articles saying how they don’t want to be hit on whilst shopping etc:P (sarcasm). I think men probably also heard too much from quite a few feminists on when it’s ok to hit on someone, and seemingly the advice is pretty much never unless you can mindread the woman and know she likes you first. I know it made me paranoid about when it’s ok to hit on someone, some would suggest pretty much never…
Archy–I thought about that might not be clear after I sent it. Shy guys can practice the art of striking up conversations in a safe place where there is no assumption of a date. His objective is not a date or a phone number, his objective is practice conversing with women, eye contact, like Jules said…listening, and taking an interest in her expertise without fear of rejection. For example, an 18 year boy can find someone who looks like a 40 yr old mom or an 80 yr old grandma and strike up casual conversation. He can practice how to… Read more »
The website is blocking all my messages regardless of their content. I guess that goes to show just how ‘free’ speech is here. Agree with everything they say or you’re not welcome.
Raegus–we hear you and we want to hear your voice. The gender-blender issues affect all us and I think we all agree that men and women are in this life boat together: we need each other. These discussion boards are a great place to pinpoint and identify problems, but more importantly to solve problems.
Men are good at solving problems. If I’ve learned one thing in my life, when I have a problem I reach out to men and they help me solve problems. That’s why I’m here.
Archy- there may be additional ‘rejection’ feelings from e-dating too. About a year ago I signed up for a month of e-dating. Wrote a profile, included a picture and some special interest stuff about me–talking points if you will. Probably close to 90% of guys start with Hi! or You’re Hot! or You have a pretty smile. Those comments deserve a ‘thank you’…but that’s about it. Men may feel rejected or frustrated, depending on a girl’s response. I accepted one e-date out of hundreds of intros, because of what the man said in his profile and his approach. He didn’t… Read more »
While we’re on the subject of shy guys, or any guys for that matter, I recommend men NOT accept pity from women. ‘Pity’ can turn into a downward spiral of mothering or that patronizing thing that some women do, quiet guys fall into this trap. Instead tell women politely, “I don’t need your pity, but I would appreciate your support.” I clearly states you need support too, but will not accept her putting you in lower status. Just my two cents.
@Joan, Yeah pity is useless. I’d much rather her say sometime about how to talk to women, help me practice, give tips without treating me like I am a lost dog.
Yep, pity and criticism are deal-breakers for everyone; I know I’ve made a million mistakes in my life…I’m not sitting in an ivory tower. It’s really about taking an interest in someone else, and the more practice you get the smoother is becomes. You don’t appear to have problem communicating here. You’re speaking your mind candidly and articulately and mixing it up with some humor and wit, you shouldn’t have anything to worry about. One book I recommend, which is a classic, is ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’ by Dale Carnegie. It’s old, but it’s still used in… Read more »
Joan…There must be better options than this for men…other women somewhere who are more ready,where culture is more able to include men.
Well, I have hope that people can re-connect with each other and maybe on a deeper level too. I’m in complete support of ideas that bring people closer together, instead of driving us further apart. It’s much like this feminist behavior we’ve been talking about that drives men away from women. I know I picked on the ‘angry black women’ stereotype, but I picking on white women too.
Joan…I might even suggest that between couples in love who behave as you speak,they access a spiritual dimension where deep connection resides.
Raegus…In my view creating a social climate where all men are seen as monsters is encouraging hate.
Raegus…let me reframe my point about feminism. I compare my experience as a member of the Civil Rights movement,the feminist movement,Christianity and black liberation,realizing the most successful one,CR, was the most accepted and inclusive.CR taught me to love everyone,even my oppressors. feminism doesn’t do those things,it has history of teaching hate and disregard for others.A person is perfectly capable of treating people as they should by simply following the golden rule.
Raegus- He stated that well. CR teaches us to embrace cooperation, acceptance, and understanding. Some concepts imbedded in modern thinking, teach us to embrace separatism, which is fine as long as it’s not at the expense of others or careless disregard other’s values. History shows us, when we embrace cooperation, acceptance, and understanding whether it’s a race, religion, gender we win. I just visited the feminist site for the first time and I see glaring hypocrisy too. (Take note that feminist site is pink.) There was one article on chivalry and feminism. The same group of women who killed chivalry,… Read more »
I agree with most of what you said, although I feel the need to mention that that website is actually just one feminist organisation out of many and not the spokesman for feminism. But yes there is a number of glaring hypocrisies within the feminist movement in all three waves. They believe they have the monopoly on wisdom and they can never ever be incorrect. Any man who tries to correct them is a sexist, any woman who tries to correct them is an indoctrinated ‘handmaiden’ (an actual feminist pejorative term for women who aren’t feminists).
I like the Webster’s definition of submission I found years ago, because it doesn’t have scriptural or subservient baggage attached. submit: to offer oneself of free will, to cease to offer resistance, or defer to another’s opinions, decisions, authority, wishes. By this defintion, submission doesn’t take anything away from the individual and we don’t have to submit and accept everything…but we don’t have resist everything either. For example, try to get a 16 year old to clean up their room without a debate. They grummble and resist. Some parents don’t even command enough respect to get their kids to follow… Read more »
Joan…I believe that on occasion, needing someone,who is better at something than you,or gives you something of value, does require a kind of submission in certain situations.I believe this builds appreciation between couples of the other’s skills. Jules is right feminists don’t seem to understand the power of compromise,inclusion or of the apology.
Julie…I’m trying to figure out the seperation of systems from the people and values that create,manage and implement the systems.Take slavery.The people that created it were already corrupt.The system reflected their values and beliefs.It is commonly understood in the political science community that systems created by people are a reflection of their values not the opposite.
Julie…I have lived through and been a part of feminism, the Civil Rights movement, the black liberartion movement,I’ve been a christian, an atheist,an altar boy and a criminalMy father was lost to me because of his service in Korea and my surrogate father, who was my brother, was almost lost to me in VN..I discussed the impact of socioecopolitical conditions on humanityover cornflakes first as a clever 13 years old growing up in the Haight Ashbury. The bottom line is I can’t tell a kid, boy or girl, straight or gay who is being abused at home, that it isn’t… Read more »
Julie…Reagus has a point in that the issues of concern for many men are relationship not sociopoliticoeconomic oreintated.Does one matter to the other?Yes,but neither I nor Raegus can prevent you or Hillary or any other woman from running for president. it’s tiring Dear lord,Shirley Chisolm,a black woman from Barbados, ran in 72,just 8 years after the Civil Rights Act was signed.Maybe its time women to stop whining for and instead start running for office.Random men don’t control corporations,government or other institutions.Occupy Wall St. got one thing right,the future isn’t about coalescing our energies around a new faction like black rights,feminism,or… Read more »
Joan… In that place that is guarded with the utmost consideration and careful attendance rests the realization of my incompleteness. I know in my heart and supported by my research that men and women are linked physiologically.
Ogwriter…Agreed, when we let our guard down, we become vulnerable. But with that said, here’s a big hug coming at you.
Joan… As I have written before the condition of the men of color and poor people in general in America are the canary in the mine shaft for white males.I was shocked to find so many similarites of the problems that white men face compared to the rest of us men. THE FINANCIAL MELTDOWN CHANGED EVERYTHING.
We are all in the same boat. The majority of working class folks feel at the mercy of the economy. Oddly enough, the lower income families had lesser impact in the meltdown. It was the middle income families that took the biggest hit. This was wake up call for middle income guys, of every color.