“Men, please weigh in on this…Do guys get the wrong impression quite often?”

This comment was from Joan on the post “In Defense of Psycho Bitches from Hell

I think guys get the wrong impression quite often. Kind gestures get misread all the time.

1.)  I was at a gas station and a man and I started a conversation about business-stuff. He seemed interested in our conversation, so I handed him a business card.  I was away from the phone all that day. When I got, home he left 4 messages on my machine…each one was increasingly personal. The last message sounded like he was in love with me…I called him back and was crystal-clear that it was strictly business and I even lied and told him I was gay.  He never called again.

2.)  Another story, I had contractor stop by for an estimate on my driveway and we talked about bricks and concrete…didn’t think any of it. The next evening, he stopped by with the written estimate and dropped off a bottle of wine. Then, on the third night, he stopped by, again but this time, in a shirt and tie and asked me out to dinner.  And all I wanted was an estimate!!!

I have more of stories, but I won’t bore you. In all situations, I was not flirtatious or suggestive, just pleasant and kind. If you knew me, you find I’m kind and articulate, but I’m not flirty.

These are the weird things that women deal with and cause us to be guarded. Am I supposed to be rude and course with men?  Or I should I start talking about Jesus and scare men off with Bible thumping?  :)

Men, please weigh in on this.

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Comments

  1. Jonathan G says:

    Yes: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2011/12/16/men-often-misread-womens-sexual-cues-study

    Summary: Overestimating a woman’s sexual interest leads to embarrassment and inconvenience; underestimating it leads to less reproductive success. Overestimating interest is thus evolutionarily favored.

    And in social terms, friends tell me that women usually forgive a guy who tries to make an opportunity, and I know from personal experience that women never forgive a guy who misses an opportunity.

  2. I think the title doesn’t match your examples. In both examples, it appears that each guy was genuinely attracted to you and took his only connection to you to ask you out. The business card guy was creepier about it, but nonetheless, you don’t say that he took your giving him your business card as an invite to ask you out. He just did it because, well, he’s like many guys. The second guy was actually more charming. He eased into it and suited up to ask you on a date, like a gentleman. You don’t say that he told you he had the impression you were interested. He simply was attracted to you and probably your personality.

    You are describing the curse of being attractive/charsimatic in a world where human contact happens less often. Perhaps your friendliness at the gas station was outside the norm but that doesn’t mean he got the wrong idea.

    So your title would have been more accurate had it used your closing sentence. The Kinds of Things We Women Have to Deal With.

    And for the record, I can clearly tell when a woman is interested in me and when it’s just business or friendliness. When I’m single, I then make the decision on how to follow up and whether or not to pursue it romantically. Sometimes I get a date. Sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I get mixed cues and I patiently wait until it’s clear because I may have developed a friendship I value.

    And sometimes, I have to screen the flirtation because someone is actually just trying to butter me up for free professional services. These are the kinds of women we men have to deal with…

    • Bill, I didn’t know this was going to turn into a full-post, otherwise I would have changed the title and edited better.

      Agreed, it is charming that he suited up…in retrospect, I must give him kudos. I have to give guys credit for approaching and initiating, but the context is important.

      The gas station guy, probably went home thought “Whoo, Score, I got a phone number, I must call it!”. I learned a couple lessons about giving out phone-numbers on that one. He may have been a really nice person and possibly my husband today, but 4 calls in an afternoon–it’s a little too enthusiastic.

  3. PursuitAce says:

    It seems to work better in sixth grade. You know that moment when Jill tells her best friend to tell your best friend that she likes you. Of course you have no idea what to do with that information, but at least you know you where you stand.

  4. PursuitAce says:

    And in regards to the US News link…how about the men who just play the odds and don’t care about immediate mutual attraction or the number of times they are rejected.? They don’t seem to figure into the computation. And they’re not worried about signals…

  5. If woman want to be guarded they should take responsibility in knowing that they’re choosing to be guarded. a few bad experiences doesn’t mean a lifetime of bad experiences.

    • AnonymousDog says:

      I have to wonder if the fact that so many men mistake women ‘just being friendly” for some kind of flirtation is an indication of how rarely women are just being friendly to them. In other words, men mistake women merely being friendly for flirtation because most of the women they come into contact with are already so guarded.

      • @AnonymousDog…

        Yes, I think this has much to do with it.

        However, it is not the fear of rape or violence that these women genuinely fear. It is their fear of unattractive men.

        It reminds me of the definition of sexual harassment in the workplace: unwelcome sexual….Ok. So, if the sexual advance is welcomed, does that mean it is OK? It is weirdest definition I have ever come by in my life.

        But, when nearly a third to one half of people are meeting and eventually marrying those whom they have met in the workplace, it seems almost self serving.

        I think so many women are guarded because they do not want the unwelcome approach from Mr. Unattractive.

  6. These are the weird things that women deal with and cause us to be guarded. Am I supposed to be rude and course with men? Or I should I start talking about Jesus and scare men off with Bible thumping?
    The first guy seems to have really crossed the line with multiple personal messages. Leaving one message to ask you out is one thing but to leave multiples (and that’s not even considering the “personal” you’re talking about.

    I honestly don’t think the third guy was out of line. He was working on an estimate for some work and chances are without that work he would have had no other contact with you. He classed himself up a bit to try to ask you out. When talking about what guys should do when trying to date, I often hear women talk about how guys should clean themselves up and look good. Well that’s what he did instead of asking you out in the dirty work clothes he wore that day.

    Now I can understand if you those guys came at you at a time when you were not looking to date not to mention that they were not guys you wanted to date. However (and mind you I’m a guy saying this) while I can understand the problems with the first guy (I’d even be willing to understand calling him creepy) I think you might be going to far on the second guy. Now I do wonder how did the second guy react once you rejected him. If he went on about his day then I don’t see a problem, if he tried to “win you over” then there might be a problem.

    Yes you weren’t interested but with the behavior you describe from the second guy he was trying to show you that he wasn’t some dusty worker and could step it up.

    And one more thing.

    I have more of stories, but I won’t bore you. In all situations, I was not flirtatious or suggestive, just pleasant and kind. If you knew me, you find I’m kind and articulate, but I’m not flirty.
    It’s not like there is some rule that says a guy can only approach and express interest if the woman in question is also showing overt active interest as well.

    • Danny, you’re right there is no rule to approach a woman. I should take it as a compliment that men are attracted or interested. But I found myself in quandry, especially with the contractor. Because my thoughts were on how much is this driveway project going to set me back? Is it a good investment right now? Is this contractor going to take advantage of single-female homeowner? Is his craft quality work, eventhough he came recommended from a neighbor? A date didn’t enter my mind.
      I could see if he worked on a project and over a period of time we developed more rapport, then asking me out would be appropriate.
      But as soon as he asked me out, I hate to say this, but I felt like he wanted a trade for his work. He subtly mixed business and pleasure, with a bottle of wine in one hand and written estimate in the other. I’m certain he did not intend it, but women receive things differently.

      • I should take it as a compliment that men are attracted or interested.
        Well you don’t have to take it as a compliment. I was just saying that it’s entirely fair to have a “How dare he try to approach me.” attitude. I don’t think you need to feel like he did you a favor by showing interest, but I don’t think it should be taken as an insult either.

        But I found myself in quandry, especially with the contractor. Because my thoughts were on how much is this driveway project going to set me back? Is it a good investment right now? Is this contractor going to take advantage of single-female homeowner? Is his craft quality work, eventhough he came recommended from a neighbor? A date didn’t enter my mind.

        I could see if he worked on a project and over a period of time we developed more rapport, then asking me out would be appropriate.
        While those things are possible should they really factor into trying to get inside his head and fathoming why he tried to approach you? It’s just as possible that he was trying to tack advantage of the situation in the ways you say and it’s just as possible that he saw you, talked to you, found you interesting, and wanted to simply ask you out.

        (I’ll say it like this. Let’s say this were a story of a guy that lived on the high end that takes his laundry to a specific dry cleaners and one of the women that works there asks him out. How would we react to that guy thinking, “Is she just trying to ask me out because she thinks I have money?”?)

        But if he worked on a project over time and developed a rapport then asked you, and you turned him down, guess what he’s be called. Yeah that.

        And that’s the bind that a lot of men find themselves in. If they ask too soon it’s inappropriate, if they wait and ask later they are feigning friendship in hopes of romance.

        • I’ve seen women I’ve wanted to ask out at their workplace (checkout person, shop keeper, etc) but never asked them out for not wanting to bother them at work. The bind is I am potentially losing opportunities for romance, or even just friendship, and if other guys are similar then she is also losing out.

  7. I’d second Jonathan G’s comment. But PursuitAce is also right to point out some guys just play the numbers game and try to ask out as many women as possible regardless of mutual attraction (maybe those guys know half of attraction is being interested in the person you’re trying to attract – but that’s only a rough rule since many women can be very interested in only guys who they could never be with.. but I digress). In the end, it depends on the guy.

    Personally, I am a Myers-Briggs INFJ, and tend to be more reserved. I would probably have to be somewhat possessed in order to try and win a girl over who didn’t show any mutual attraction cues. I can test the waters with conversation, but if someone isn’t interested in me I readily respect their space. So I guess I’m on the opposite side of the spectrum from the “numbers game” guys who I’ll probably never understand fully. I’ve heard that guys tend to overestimate their attractiveness though and women tend to underestimate – this could be a factor at play.

    Is it really that bad of a thing to know members of the opposite sex are interested in you though? Well, I guess if you’re not into them.. but it doesn’t seem like the worst thing that can happen.

    • Steffen,
      I tend to be reserved too and it takes effort to be outgoing and friendly, I am an INTJ with capital I and that’s probably why numbers-guys are a turn off. Because I need to get to know someone a little deeper before I’ll let my guard down.
      And, I know I underestimate my external value, because I don’t consider myself attractive, but I’ve been told otherwise.

  8. Copy of my comment in reply:
    I’d have to watch you interact with them to see what signals you were showing, possibilities include speaking in an extremely flirty manner. I know of a woman here who has guys who like her a lot and seems confused as to why, she sends pretty potent sexual signals from what I hear and even discusses her underwear late at night with the guys who she only thinks of as a friend, yet that guy likes her. I put it down to inexperience for her and possibly attention seeking, she’s been warned by her close female friend to stop flirting so much.

    I doubt you are flirting but there is that possibility there is something in your body language you may not be aware of. Guy number one may have thought the business card was a signal you like him, he’d be clueless if he thought that would be my best guess along with the possibility that women rarely ever talk to him for that long. Inexperienced men probably misread signs like crazy, or they’ve had women in the past sending the same signals which later turns into a relationship. The fact he left so many messages makes me think he’s probably inexperienced and even clingy.

    The contractor sounds like he was trying his luck, inappropriate of course but also sounds clueless. Sounds like he was trying to be pretty romantic as well.

    Not all people have a perfect ability to read anothers body language, interest, etc. Signals get crossed a lot for some, and some have so much difficulty reading body language it becomes a disability. I am very attuned to threatening behaviour, I was picking up on signals others didn’t when I was young. First time I met my cousins husband I said to mum I didn’t like him, I knew nothing of him but later I learned he was abusive.

    I can usually read other people interacting and spot couples, spot people interested in someone else, but either I’ve had very few women interested in me or I am blind to women interested in me (my own insecurity may have thought they were messing with me, who knows). I’ve had a woman stroke my leg before, instinct said she both liked me or was being friendly, I was pretty confused on why she’d touch me like that. She was a nurse who had just learned about calming touch? I think maybe she knew I have social anxiety and was trying to calm me, but she’s never really touched me before so it threw me off.

    I play it safe and don’t even ask women out at the moment, I’ve caught eyes with women looking at me and smiling but I never know if they like me or not or if they’re just smiling to be friendly. Seeing as I don’t wanna make them uncomfy I don’t approach (also partly my own shyness there). If I had talked to you and read signals of interest, and asked you out there is a chance that you’d be wondering why I asked you out and feeling men are misreading signals.

    But the thing is, who actually teaches the signals? I know in highschool we learn quite a lot but I was a bit of a loner getting bullied heaps, I lost out on learning quite a bit on signals plus I wasn’t very attractive and didn’t get much female attention. I saw others taking a chance and sometimes they’d be lucky, other times not. I didn’t take many chances myself, one chance I did take ended up with her telling me she didn’t wanna go out, and didn’t want to be friends because it made her uncomfy (me asking her out). She probably thought wtf would I ask her out?

    My ability to read threatening behaviour was honed over many years of bullying so now I can spot abusive people pretty quick usually, but trying to find a romantic partner? I am a complete noob there. My last relationship started from talking online, in very direct words, even then I was nervous as hell being direct about my intentions. I am pretty certain I’ve probably fucked up a few chances because I was blind to those signals, I know in highschool someone had a crush on me that I didn’t find out at all till yearrrs later.

    I’m not so sure the first guy felt so entitled to your attention, he may have simply been too damn caughtup in the first feelings of a crush. I think some people fall head over heels very quickly, and add a lil desperation or at least a yearning for love that hasn’t been fed so to speak in years can make someone call 4 times in a very enthusiastic manner, which can easily be seen as psycho. The increasingly personal messages though are weird, do you mean sexual or just him professing his feelings? Sexual would probably be more entitlement, feelings though would probably be more the case of someone desperate for love.

    The biggest problem is that women do a piss poor job as a group of asking out men, it’s still largely expected that men are to ask out women and so this burden of asking someone out is nearly fully on men’s shoulders. They have to identify who is attracted to them, who is open to dating, try to workout the right signals and then face the painful feeling of rejection if it fails or happiness if it is successful. This will definitely mean more women will be approached, and thus the chances of them being approached by someone they don’t want will be massively higher than men. I find it leads to women being guarded, and men feeling depressed knowing in a time of equality that they still have to shoulder the burden of asking out + rejection, whilst women end up waiting around sending signals (even dressed up to the nines) waiting for the man to ask them out. Getting both genders to ask out who they like, getting both genders to stop being so damn coy about their attraction and just fucking sayyyy itttt in plain English to the person they like will probably help avoid half of these issues since it won’t rely so heavily on a system of attraction fraught with errors.

    It’s not your fault either way, body language and human interactions can be a weird and confusing experience. I feel sorry for the guys in your story. What I’ve said is only a possibility and isn’t meant to defend assholes, but simply suggest that they may or may not be clueless fools who read the signals wrong.

    • @Archy…

      I would not hold my breath here in America for women, in general, to start asking men out. Only the lucky uber attractive 20% of men are going to get this kind of treatment.

      If the majority of women do not even find the majority of men attractive enough, just why would you think women would magically start asking men out? It’s not going to happen.

      Unti this matter is dealt with by many women (before their looks start to wane), it is going to be an ongoing issue.

      In my experience, being a Black guy, I do not see this issue within the Hispanic or Black communities. Women in these communities are no where near as picky, just as we Black men do not whine and bellyache about our women’s weight or the size of her ass…. Nor do we focus excessively on a woman’s boobs.

      JMO

  9. Richard Aubrey says:

    Decades ago, a woman who was a colleague said, out of context, “you have very attractive eyes.”
    I figured she was telling me I had very attractive eyes.
    About a year later, when I was in the Army, I got a letter from her. People did that in those days; write to friends and acquaintances in the service.
    She went on about various things she’d been up to, closing with a shopping trip with her mother. She’d tried on a dress which her mother told her, “makes you look like a cow”.
    I could imagine that. I imagined it quite a lot, as a matter of fact.
    Some time later, I had an epiphany. I wasn’t being treated to shopping angst. She knew there was nothing I was going to do about such things at Ft. Benning and was giving me a rough time about having been dumb as a post.

    This is what you’re writing about, right?

    • Richard,
      The post is a bit like that but the reverse. It’s about men approaching women and mis-reading signals.

      I’d need to know her, but I suspect she was being complimentary and was interested in you. She even wrote you a letter a year later, that means she was still thinking about you. I bet she was fishing for a compliment with her “cow” comment and hoping you’d tell her she’s pretty.

      I feel dumb as a post too…I’m in my 40s and I’m sure miss signals all the time.

      Thank you for your service!

  10. @Its a numbers game and men must take undo risk to have relationships, since women don’t have to.

  11. @Archy: Clueless fools sems kind of strong to me. Romantically, women are allowed to deal with men in ways that are mysterious–deceitful?- designed to save them from the kind of embarrssment that men often have to shoulder because he misread her signals.The truth is that women don’t have to be honest in these unteractions with men since part of the game is to see if he can read her many confusuing often hypocritical messages.
    I have made many mistakes of the kind mentioned in the article.There have been times when I’ve misread the signals–she wanted me to be sexually aggressive and I was not- so she fucked the other guy.And there have been occasions when I have come on too strong, even after being encouraged by the woman and said woman. didn’t like that either. True story: Two months ago I met a woman who actually came up to me and started a conversation.I took my time getting to know her and two months into the relatinship, after being patient and reading her signals, I made my move,I hate the sound of that. She inviited me over and the petting began in earnest. Mind you this woman was a professor and was in her fifities. Well, she unzipped my pants and gave me blow job. Spurned on by her “signal”s, Istripped her naked, slowly, seductively and penetrated her and had sex. Days later, after not hearing from her, I asked what was wrong and she said that I had been too sexually aggressive with her?! I expalined that I went off of her signals—the blow job– to know avali. This isn’t the only time something of this nature has happened top me. I was just grateful this nut job didn’t try to charge me wih rape.I no longer go off of signals. If the woman is not staright up about what she wants and needs, I don’t play. Also, many women play games with their sexual power,flirting and coming on to men when they are not serious. Men need to be taught to screen for that shit.

    • Ogwriter–Wow! That’s a story, some women are nutty. Luckily my stories are light-weight compared to that.
      I’m real clear with guys, WHEN I am interested. I tell guys I’m looking for a long-term, secure relationship, leading to marriage. Period. If they don’t like it too bad, they can move on.

      Most women these days SAY they don’t want marriage, so they are appealing to guys, but as soon as the find a guy, they behave like they want marriage. It sounds like this woman waited to have sex, but didn’t wait, then wanted to wait again, then change her mind altogether. wtf? That is scary as hell, if you fear rape accusations or repercussions. Ahh!!!

      I said it in earlier post, hold off from sex until you build a strong foundation…sex only amplifies emotions. ‘They’ always say, sex complicates everything.

      If were a guy (this is just my two-cents) assume ALL women want to be married someday — despite what doubletalk she says and treat dating/mating as if, marriage is your goal, not sex. I’m sorry, I feel bad for you.

  12. All of these guys respected your explicit no, and no harm was done, what’s the problem?

    If you were single, and they were hot, then surely you would want to encourage this behaviour?

  13. @Joan: According to some sexual researchers,women are the sexual gatekeepers,which I’m sure you have heard.They say that women lead men to the sexual well,then give- expect- men to the lead the rest of the way.In my view,this scenario is the preferred,dominant methodology most women use. Sexual researchers,Dr.’s Buss and Minton, from the University of Texas who wrote,Why Women Have Sex, demonstrate that there are over 271 reasons,having nothing to do with love or longterm committment, that women have sex.Many times on this site women have admitted as much and from my experience thats true.

  14. @Joan:Why the relutance to believe that ALL women don’t subcribe to your views on this matter? Some the biggest and most exclusive whore houses in America were owned by women.Some of these women came from means and were well educated. I remember how reluctant my history professor,PHd candidate in women’s studies from Cal, was to discuss this. And sadly,women don’t want to discuss women’s violence either.

    • Ogwriter–I totally agree that women are the gatekeepers of sex, BUT, men are gatekeepers of attention.

      I’ve noticed women’s violent, emotional outbursts are part of a woman’s need for attention and emotional security. Some women do not know how to communicate, in a reasonable manner, what she’s insecure about or why she needs attention. So they throw things, say vicious things, meltdown, hurt people, all sorts of violent outbursts.

      Recently, I heard one guy say his girlfriend threw a laptop at him and almost clocked him in the head (but it turns out he was criticizing her and making her insecure a couple days before, and something snapped). That was her way of getting his attention or getting even, not very loving behavior for either. Another guy told me his wife ran a key down the side of his car, out of anger (but she was emotionally insecure because he was having an affair). Not loving behavior for either.

      I’m not suggesting we endorse or accept a woman’s violent behavior…on the contrary, women need to communicate what she needs BEFORE she flames out and if necessary, put her in her place. Let her know throwing tantrums or laptops is not tolerated. I wouldn’t accept a man throwing a laptop at me, why should a man accept it? But I wouldn’t accept a man criticizing me in the first place, I’d let him know that it’s not tolerated.

      No man wants to be put in position like yours, where she says one thing, does another, and then flames out…then you sit in fear or doubt yourself that you did something wrong.

      • @Joan….

        “…….BUT, men are gatekeepers of attention.’

        Yes, you are indeed correct. However, the difference is Joan is that most women only want the attention from a few and limited number of men.

        It’s like booty calls. Usually, the woman initiates. The guy she call is sexing several other women as well. And the woman knows this too. So, it is not a fair and “democratic” process.

        Ogwriter referenced the Buss and Meston book, “Why Women have Sex..” Even in their research, women admitted they found only a few men attractive while most men found the majority of women attractive.

        I really think the discourse needs to take place at this level, first. Because, it is the real source of the problem(s). Men are sexually frustrated and this in turn leads to what you and other women perceive as scary behavior. Thus, you and other women erect barriers to ward off these poor souls whom you do not want to approach you.

        • Jules, In all fairness women have fears, but re-read ogwriter….if were him I’d have a little apprehension too. If accusations of rape even enters a man’s mind…that’s a scary thought.

          And yes, you’re correct. I don’t want attention from multiple men…just one. One man’s life is enough to handle and try to do it right and not half-a$$ it.

          Physical attraction to a man is important, but it is not a high priority to me, I know it sounds corny, but it’s the inside that matters. That’s why I need more time to get acquainted with someone, before it gets romantic.

          This my view, but I feel sex is a by-product of a healthy relationship. Relationship first-sex later. Sexually frustrated men tend to want sex first and build the relationship second.

          I’m certainly not withholder, but I’m not running around serving every sexually frustrated man who wants a date…nor do I think pity-sex is healthy for men’s self-esteem either.

          • @Joan…

            No, I am not suggesting that you or any other woman go around serving sexually frustrated men. Simply trying to point out what I happen to believe to be one of the primary causes of their sexual frustration.

            You wrote,

            “Relationship first-sex later. Sexually frustrated men tend to want sex first and build the relationship second.”

            Perhaps this is your reality Joan. However, it is not typical. When their is mutual interest and people start having sex, it is usually after 2-4 dates. So, were talking probably 2-3 weeks. I hardly see how you can call that amount of time a relationship.

            Hence, rarely is their a relationship first and then sex. It is more like dating then sex and if a relationships develops…….

            Just saying.

      • “Ogwriter–I totally agree that women are the gatekeepers of sex,”

        You are participating in rape culture.

  15. Again.

    Men are different!!!! Some guys do get wrong impression, some guys dont!!!!

    If any guy generalize women like this he would be called misogynist jerks asshole ( or Nice Guy “TM” )

  16. Yes. The same way women often get the wrong impression. I can’t tell you the amount of women who have just assumed we’re in a relationship because we’ve done a few things together. It’s stupid to make out that women are psychic beings and only men can misunderstand gestures. The second example you gave didn’t even sound like a misunderstanding just sounds like dude wanted to ask you out. Or are men forbidden from doing that now?

    • Really? Deleting comments? I guess no dissenting voices are allowed in your echo chamber? The website claims to want discussion, but only discussion that is in complete agreement with what the Authors are saying by the looks of it.

      • GMP Moderator says:

        Raegus the comment that was removed accused the writer of trivializing women’s problems and going into the hyperbole of suggesting mandatory chemical castration of all males.

        It’s most certainly possible to dissent without taking it that far. In fact people do it all the time around here.

        • Unfortunately dissent doesn’t mean “agree using different words”.

          • GMP Moderator says:

            It’s not agreeing using different words.

            You can just as well say that you don’t agree with the writer here without going into outrageous hypothetical scenarios.

            • It’s not an outrageous hypothetical situation it’s an emphasis of my point. But you already know this, my comment was deleted because it couldn’t be refuted.

            • GMP Moderator says:

              Or you could try submitting the comment again, without the suggestion of chemical castration of males to make the writer feel better.

              Take your pick.

            • So you can go back to the other original complaint of me accusing the Author of trivialising the problems of women (since any criticism of the writing in question is forbidden here)? Take my pick? My choice has evidently been made FOR me. Thank you for taking the time to clarify this for me, though, that’s better than just being ignored.

    • Raegus, can you help me/us understand the male perspective about approaching a woman?
      I am 43 years old, travelled the world, MBA, not totally inept when it comes to life and men, but I still have concerns or insecurities about men approaching women under a ‘business’ context.

      After reading some of the responses, I can’t tell if my forwardness or friendliness is mistaken for interest or am I justified in being guarded?
      And I thank the guys for their input, it helps me reflect on my behavior and understand men too.
      By all means, you don’t have to agree or disagree–feel free to vent at me, but please share.

      • It’s surprisingly simple. A man can look at a woman, find her attractive, and want to go out with her. Your friendliness isn’t the cause at all, but it can make a man feel more comfortable in approaching you (as opposed to thinking “She might be rude, better not risk it”). Every man that approached you liked you before you opened your mouth. But it seems to me like you just have an irrational fear of men and constantly strive to create complex motives behind their actions. They’re not trying to creep you out, or harrass you, or further patriarchy, they just want to get to know you. Chill out.

        Hopefully this comment doesn’t get deleted too.

        • @Raegus…

          “A man can look at a woman, find her attractive, and want to go out with her.”

          I am not trying to be petty here. But…

          My approach is: I see a woman. She is attractive (I find the majority of women attractive, not just the “hot” ones). I approach her and attempt to engage her in conversation to: 1) find out more about her, 2) determine if I wish to ask her out on a date, and 3) gauge if she has interest in me. If I do not like her, then I am not going to pursue her. Or if I feel she does not like me romantically, then it is moot point.

          Maybe too many men think that just because they see an attractive woman, she is suppose to WANT to go out with them. Well, that is totally false.

          • You have to be kidding me. I’m 23 years old and pretty attractive and every time I go out to a pub, club or what have you I get women from my age all the way to twice my age who think it’s ‘cute’ to sexually harrass me. If anything, it’s women who think just because they see an attractive guy he’s supposed to want to go out with them, and if they want to touch him inappropriately they can because they’re just women which makes it funny instead of making it the sexual harrassment they’d all cry about. Well, THAT is what’s totally false. It seems like a vast majority of women embrace all the double standards of sexism when it’s in their favor.

            • @Raegus…

              I ACTUALLY BELIEVE YOU!

              Why? Because you are viewed as “cute”, good looking, and conventionally attractive by these women. Of course you are suppose to want to go out with them. You are their favorite and most desirable man!

              But, this ONLY happens to men who are conventionally attractive, or “cute”, or “hot” or good looking.

              What bothers me about this sort of behavior by women is: 1) their refusal to admit it and 2) their refusal to see it as a double standard.

            • Women do see it as a double standard, they just won’t admit it. You have to understand that a large number of women , feminists and non-feminists alike, see THEMSELVES as inferior to men. So when a double standard appears that benefits them they say “oh, well we’re female, we need that”. This is an extension of female privilege and you’ll find women won’t give that up so easily. They can demand that men give up male privilege but men be damned if they think women are going to give up female privilege. Women want to be respected like men and treated like women, ergo possess both male and female privilege, they don’t understand they have to earn that respect because female privilege tells them theyre automatically entitled to the respect of every man.

              When I tell a woman to stop sexually harrassing me I’m a “jerk” or an “asshole” or even “gay” (though the word they most often use begins with F). Most women, as you can see in the writer’s comments and the comments of most woman if you’re looking for it, see men as a monolithic group of all-powerful beings who can never be hurt.

      • @Joan…

        Joan…

        I will attempt to answer your question. First, just because a woman is friendly or forward does not mean she is interested in the guy. Most of the time she is not, at all.

        The problem I see with women here in America is that most find only a few men attractive. While, most men find most women attractive. So, part of this “being on guard” by women is to eliminate those 80% of men who are just not attractive enough. It is not a “safety” mechanism. It is a way of being discriminating in taste.

        Because of this highly restrictive view of male attractiveness, most men are starved for attention, dates, and sex. So, when a woman IS open and friendly, I think most men take it as “finally I have a woman who is interested!” However, it is often a mistaken belief….

        It is just a completely dysfunctional dating protocol we have in America. It leads to massive confusion, anger, resentment, and just a whole lot of negatives. I have seen and experienced this myself. If I approached a woman and she was not interested, her vibes are overwhelmingly negative sometimes to the point of being a bit rude.. However, when a conventionally attractive guy approached the same woman, it was like she women the Powerball! But, all men MUST approach. I do not take it personally.

        Men like women. Most men tend to like most women. Unfortunately, most women do not like most men. Herein lies the crux of the problem. And I have no idea what we can do about it.

        Body language is key for me. I know when a woman is interested through her body language. So, when I approach, it does not take me long to figure this out (usually a few minutes). Men simply do not in general have the experience in dating of the typical woman. Most men are fairly inexperienced (as was I before marriage). Hence, women make comments about such men being “clueless.” Well, there is a valid reason why he is “clueless.” Unless he is conventionally attractive…..80% of time he is going to get shot down. So, just how is he suppose to get experience? It is virtually impossible. So, he is clueless for a reason.

        Approaching women and dating/sex is like sales. It really IS a numbers game. The bad news: a man is going to have to approach a lot of women. The good news: there are a hell of a lot of women out there to approach. As with sales, often it is about timing and having a “value proposition.” Then, you MUST be able to close.

        Clearly, this is a crummy way to see dating/sex in America. But, this reflects just how dysfunctional things really are on the dating front. I think this is why the interest in all this PUA stuff. Men are trying to break through the clutter and fog.

        JMO

        • “While, most men find most women attractive.”
          This is a relief to me and probably millions of women with tragic self-images. Women need to hear that they don’t have to be supermodels to be attractive…not so we can let ourselves go, but at least not panic over one flaw.
          Same thing applies to men, most women are more forgiving on looks and money than it appears…it is about who the man is and how he treats us, not the superficial stuff.

          I love men and appreciate the value they bring into my life and that’s why I’ve been reading these posts and trying learn from you guys. When I was in my 20s and doing the college thing…I didn’t value men, I was clueless. I bought into the rhetoric, ‘you don’t need a man, you’re independent.’ I find the many of my best experiences have been with men…many painful ones too, but with the good comes the bad.

          I’m still somewhat clueless, because I’m a female…I never walked a mile in your shoes, but guys haven’t walked a mile in ours either. I hope, I never “shot a man down”, I’ll be careful in future…hopefully other women reading this are more careful too. Thanks Jules.

  17. Here’s the thing- In reality, the only *rule* in play as far as when it’s acceptable for a man to approach a woman, is when “she feels” it’s appropriate. Yes, certain situations are socially better than others, but when do men really know for sure that an approach is ok ?

    The workplace is tricky and professionally dangerous, but this is where many people spend most of their time. The party, bookstore or bar isn’t a lock either. Maybe you just want to hang out with your friends, read a book, sip a latte, walk in the park- without being hit on. For every woman who is irritated when a man takes a shot, there’s another who is ecstatic- no matter the time or place. There are just too many variables involved, so our choices are to make the most of the situation, or do nothing.

    As far as your behavior, don’t change a thing. A scowl may work wonders for deflecting unwanted advances (very effective on me), but do you really want to walk around looking pissed all the time? Just continue to read people and situations and adjust accordingly.

    • “The workplace is tricky and professionally dangerous, but this is where many people spend most of their time. The party, bookstore or bar isn’t a lock either. Maybe you just want to hang out with your friends, read a book, sip a latte, walk in the park- without being hit on.”
      Exactly! Where exactly is a safe place? Only online in dating profiles is close enough to guarantee asking someone out is ok. But where offline would you go to meet women or men?

      I also prefer to know someone before asking them out yet I see women saying they have men faking friendship to ask them out and how annoying it is, OTOH you have women annoyed when strangers hit on them. It’s all a gamble, it may or may not work whenever, wherever you ask someone out and taking that chance means also you’re potentially going to make them uncomfy if they are bothered by strangers asking them out, or friends asking them out.

      • @Archy…

        “….OTOH you have women annoyed when strangers hit on them.”

        It is even worse. You have women who think it is “creepy” or “weird” for a strange man to even say “Hello” to them.

        I grew up in the Deep South here in the US. Most Southerners are warm and friendly. But, I just cannot understand what is so horrible about just having a simply non threatening conversation with a man. Of course, if the man is conventionally attractive, it is OK.

        Also, here is another contradiction. Women do not like talking to strangers (at least some). But, they have no problem going online and selecting a good looking, cute, hot guy to meet for drinks. He too is a stranger!!!

        I read so many stories by women who pick a guy from an online dating site to meet. They are excited: he is successful, thin, cute,blah blah blah. Then when they actually meet him, they discover the pic was 10 years old and he lied about his age. HE IS NO LONGER ATTRACTIVE.

        Just saying…

  18. @Joan: You must have known this woman I dated?! We were out once dancing and she freaked me tfo when she got upset claiming I wasn’t looking at her enough while we were dancing. I did as you said and called her on it.Things settled down,then she began to flirt with the maitre di.Sensing what was going on,I said it was time to go. By the time we got to the car she then claimed she never got jealous or upset. Whoa?!

  19. I can’t speak to whether men get the wrong impression quite often, but I can comment on the fact that many women are sensitive to the impression they are giving, or more to the point, not giving – that is, it’s common for women to worry about “giving him the wrong idea” — whether the “he” is a stranger, an employer/employee/contractor etc., a coworker, even her own partner. It comes from this idea that the average man will jump on any opportunity presented, so if a woman doesn’t want that kind of attention, she feels responsible for not doing anything that might trigger it. The logic of that seems sound on the surface and it isn’t even that bad of a rule to live by (if not carried to extremes), but what it ignores is that the man may create the opportunity himself with or without being ‘triggered’ by anything but his own attraction (as supported by male commenters above me).

    So that’s just something women need to keep in mind before they start analyzing their own actions. It’s worth taking a look at your behavior and the messages you’re sending, but don’t put too too much stock in that analysis because it’s not the end-all.

  20. @Jules: How you been?Well, I hope.I agree with you on so many points. One thing that fascinates and frustrates me is men of color, generally, are far more broad in what they find physically attractive. As you stated, cup size and weight are not the concerns they are elsewhere in pop culture-I doubt that Jay-Zee is complaining about Beyonce’s hip”s being too big. Shouldn’t that attitude result in more opportunities for men of color with women who are tired of that stuff?

    • @ogwriter…

      Greetings! I hope you are doing terrific. I am doing well, Thank you.

      While I intentionally limit the number of women I have sexual encounters, I do find that being a Black guy, intelligent, successful, charming (Southern), and a good listener does translate into more success with women, namely white women or Hispanic women.

      Though my ex wife was a Black woman, I have always had “communication” issues with many Black women. I have always accorded them the same level of respect as I give all other women. But, for some reason they felt they could treat me like some okee doke from the hood.

      It’s funny. A well known Black actor lived in my neighborhood for about two years. He starred in the TV drama “Homicide.” He once remarked to me: “The problem with most Black women is they do not understand you cannot treat a man who makes $500,000 a year the same way you treat one who makes $50,000.” He was right!

  21. @Raegus: I hear what you are saying about some women coming on to men, taking liberties because of the double standard of perception. I once had a married woman, who I was talking to at a bar, continually rub her thighs against my legs as we were talking. Finally, I tired of the game and wryly said, “So, do you wanna get a room?” Of course she was aghast at such a suggestion and tried to tell me that it was all a mistake and wasn’t trying to give me hints. You are only 23…let the games begin! These kind of things, where a woman sends signals–sexual signals– then denies that what’s she was doing is common because of the dynamic we have in place between men and woken where deception is reality.

    • @ogwriter…

      “…..because of the dynamic we have in place between men and woken where deception is reality.”

      And this is what makes the whole damn thing so dysfunctional.

  22. I think Jules is being a bit liberal with his comments about ‘most men like most women’. Men who are at liberty to be more selective, are. Personally I wouldn’t go below a 7/10, I think most guys who are deemed attractive would say similar. Most men like most women within their level of attractiveness, would probably be a more accurate statement.

    • @Raegus…

      No, I am not being liberal. It is documented with research. You can find evidence in the book, “Why Women Have Sex” by Buss and Meston.

      Most men think most women are average 7/10. However, nearly all women fell THEY are 9/10. But, most women think OTHER women are 6 or 7/10.

      So, you are confirming what I said when you state you would not go below 7/10. Now, how many women do you know would find a 7/10 man attractive? Seriously.

      Yes, we all have or taste and/or preferences in women. Unless the woman is just revolting, most men are going to find her attractive enough. Since you are a pretty boy, I guess you have higher standards because you can have higher or high standards. Hey, more power to you.

      JMO

      • 7/10 is above average to me.

        Most women who fall below a 7/10 would go for a man who is a 7/10. And most women fall below a 7/10. So the answer to your question is most women. I’m not saying they’ll hang up posters on their wall of a 7/10 but when it comes to real life they’ll jump at it.

  23. I think it flucuates greatly,even among attractive men.Especially, if the guy gets burned.From a practical perspective,dating only attractive women narrows the field dramatically.Which I think increases the liklyhood that one will meet a difficult person to deal with.

    • It does, but just being honest, not really. Especially these days when you can go to a club and pull 10 attractive single girls in one night, lol. It actually messes you up in a way tbh, makes it very hard to stick to one woman.

  24. I hear you young buck,but when the lights go out,pink is pink. Too often youngmen like yourself don’t realize there is a price to be paid when having lots of easy sex with many women.I got to a point where I was so jaded and cocky that when I wanted to feel something for a woman,I couldn’t.I really believed I had lost the ability to be in love,scary. Wear your jimmie hat,take care of yourself and don’t fool yourself.

    • Love is dead lol, who needs it.

      • You need it! Love is not dead, there’s hope. Basing relationships on sex and superficial appearances…didn’t work for me either. I felt completely empty and gave up all together for virtually ten years. That’s why I came to the conclusion, I need to get to know someone and build a foundation first before it gets romantic. Sex is meaningless to me without the love, almost feels like a transaction. With the love, sex is the ultimate way to show my partner love and connection. Sex becomes a loving experience for both.

      • @Raegus…

        Well, you’re 23 and going on 19. no offense. But, it does show.

        Obviously, you are a “cute”, “hot”, good looking guy that women love to throw themselves. Not hating on your game. Women do the same. So, enjoy while you can. Hey, pretty people have an edge. But $$$ is the great equalizer!

        However, love is not dead. Perhaps it is for you. If you feel that way, more power to you. I cannot tell you how to live your life. Something has gone horribly wrong in America. People just do not seem to like people anymore, other than for sex I guess. Women do not want to talk to “strange” men…..

        What I often see, with both men and women like yourself, is 5-10 years down the road, they are complaining about how hookups and “empty” sex is so terrible. Joe Stalin once remarked, “He who is on a peace crusade has already placed his order for tanks and planes.” It always amazes me that the very people who have gone out and whored it up are the same ones that always come around telling people like me (late to the party) how bad it is.

        I just hope you do not turn out to be one of these people.

        Cheers!

        • I already think it’s terrible, that’s why I’m on this website right now. Unfortunately there needs to be more effort made into turning women into good women, you can choose a wife out of the women of my generation but finding a woman who’s actually wife material? Ha.

          • Raegus, that’s why all of us are here….it’s called the Good Men Project, women are looking to settle down with ‘Good Men” like You, Jules, Archy, Orgwriter, and most of the “Good Men” writing on these posts.
            So that begs the question, what is a ‘Good Woman’ in your opinion?

            • Well from what I’ve seen here good is nothing more than a synonym for emasculated. Either we have to admit men are innately evil or we’re not good men, a contradition apparently lost on most who post here.

            • Not to mention my point wasn’t exactly “there’s not enough good men for women to date”.

            • Raegus, I’m not going to argue with you. Men have been emasculated-not just 20 year olds-but probably every man on this planet at least once in his life.

              I suspect most women don’t intentionally emasculate men, but I know it happens.

              You are free to own your own opinions, but I don’t view people as innately evil or innately good. We all have the capacity to do ‘evil’ things, and we have the capacity to do ‘good’ things too…it’s choice.

            • And my point with the good women comment was getting women to realise this. Instead everyone is focused on the ‘evil’ men. Merely pointing this out in real life makes me a sexist misogynistic asshole.

            • Hah, am I a good man? beats being called nice:P

              “Unfortunately there needs to be more effort made into turning women into good women, you can choose a wife out of the women of my generation but finding a woman who’s actually wife material?”

              I use to be jaded n think like this. I’ll tell you a secret, there are plenty of them. In my town it’s harder to find certain kinds of women because simply there’s fuck all to do in this town, clubbing/pubs you may find a good woman but being as they may be drunk it can mask their “goodness”. I use to think there were no good women because I’d mostly see women my age drunk as hell because I’d only meet new women by going out to clubs n pubs, some of those women were probably great women but having a good time and alcohol made it harder to notice. I knew some wife material women but they were already wives or dating someone. Then it dawned on me how many decent men I know avoid the nightlife, including myself these days, I am positive there are probably heaps of single and great women here but actually finding them is pretty difficult just as it’s probably difficult finding those great men who don’t go out much.

              If you are young then you’re also still quite immature, and the women your age are immature, still finding their feet. Very few young people appear to be decent wife/husband material because they’re still immature! How many of them truly know what they want in life? I was a real asshole when I was 18, I had a lot of anger n bitterness and I wouldn’t have been a good husband at all, I wasn’t a good man but a bitter angry lil shit. I judged women so negatively as I see you are doing and largely it was because I had key friends who were just shit friends, they used me and other women I didn’t know too well so I became biased in what I thought women my age were like. When you meet a bunch of shitty women it can easily make you feel like women are shitty basically.

              But then I grew the fuck up, learned more about humans, learned a few of the women I thought were bitches weren’t actually bitches because they were inherently mean but just the times I saw them they were very defensive and in pain. They too had been through an abusive past like I did, I was a judgmental asshole who was very defensive n thought most people wanted to fuck with me n treat me like shit, so I thought of them as bitches n assholes. I had associated beauty with that too due to pretty bullies in highschool giving me a lot of shit, so beautiful women I’d expect them to be bitches.

              I grew up more n started to get more friends, slowly forced myself to open up more n got to know new people including some models and beautiful women, I mean realllly beautiful women, who had hearts of gold that proved every stereotype I believed wrong. I also got to know men who I thought were the ‘jocks’ and learned they too weren’t all bad.

              Now I ask what is wife material? Someone trustworthy? Someone that doesn’t cheat? There are a hell of a lot of men n women that make good partners. Seeing them as wife material though is limiting and pretty shitty, think of them instead as just compatible partners for you because even if they aren’t they may be perfect for others.

              What do women your age lack that you want in a wife? Have you had the misfortune I had where I was only meeting shitty women? Do you also suffer confirmation bias like I did? I was overlooking a lot of women because the negative ones stood out to me. I bet if you look at women and realllly think about it, think about who they are you’ll find there are plenty that one day would be a great partner for someone. But do remember many people once they hit 18 act out with new freedoms, they have to learn about how to handle alcohol if they haven’t already, they’re in college and a less restrictive lifestyle than at home with the parents (very very apparent in many sheltered kids). So many youngsters wanna have fun, don’t wanna settle down yet and I don’t blame em.

              Expecting them to act like 100% mature adults when their brains haven’t even developed their adult-level emotional centers (happens around 25ish) is unrealistic. Why do you even need wife material at 18? I found many people change 18-25’ish, and as my father said you’re too young to get so damn serious.

              Try not to judge people so much and be more open to the fact that what you see may not be who they really are, not to mention people also change.

              I agree that we need a goodwomenproject to to unravel femininity, but the GMP is far more than just a bunch of emasculated men. If you didn’t notice, there are a hell of a lot of men who actually call out any article that acts emasculated, there and men n women from all walks of life on the GMP from what I’ve seen.

            • Seems my point went completely over your head.

            • You want more articles telling women to be better women? All the while making a joke about your generation having women that aren’t good wife material?
              Explain your point because I am confused. Also what is good wife material to you?

            • Archy–Well said, I’m not sure how many people meet the love of their life at the club under drunken conditions. When I was young, it was fun to cut loose at the clubs and I recommend that people enjoy themselves, but safely.

              Also Archy I like your idea of a goodwomanproject to unravel some of these conundrums and maybe start building and rebuilding ‘good’ women. Most certainly we, women need to reconsider, the bill-of-goods we’ve be sold about some of this modern-independent woman stuff. Functional relationships are not all about good men but good women too.

            • “Archy–Well said, I’m not sure how many people meet the love of their life at the club under drunken conditions. When I was young, it was fun to cut loose at the clubs and I recommend that people enjoy themselves, but safely.”
              I was at a party a lil bit drunk once and I had taken my medication without realizing it gets affected by alcohol, it made me really tired and harder to talk to. I was talking to a girl I liked but I eventually had to say sorry I am really tired, not normally like this and I felt so bad because the way I am normally is much different. She could easily have thought of me as JUST a sleepy drunk or even just not interested in talkign to her. She was someone I had a big crush on and I was very interested in talkign to her!

              Drugs can really fuck up the mood and behaviour of us all at times. I try to avoid judging people based off one experience now.

            • @Joan:Thanks,but I don’t care much for the name of the site nor am I looking to belong to some fraternal order of “good men.”Been there,done that doesn’t work. I try to be,first and foremost,a good person.This gives me the flexibility I need to be adaptive in a world that can turn on a dime.Trying to be what “women” want me to be is suffocating and self defeating.

            • Ogwriter, I’ll be careful with labling men as a good men…I damned if I do, and damned if I don’t…take as compliment. Sheesh. It seems like you guys have done homework and have diverse experiences that add value and perspective.

              This is a good site for women to read and think about men’s views, not pigeon-hole you guys into categories.

            • @Joan….

              I will agree with you. The purpose of this site is a free flow of ideas. You get to see how we men see the world and we get to see how many women see things. There is a diversity of viewpoints. I have actually learned a few things from the men and women. I have gone back and reconsidered some things. So, for me it is open and honest discourse. We all need more of this to move forward.

              The only thing I do not like of recent is all the talk about rape. I am not sure why it is taking up so much discussion. I do not mean to marginalize rape by any means. But, according to FBI data, the incidents of rape are down over 50 percent in the past two decades.

              But, rape is a real threat to individual women. I do not wish to make light of this fact. Nor do I wish my comments to suggest so much.

            • Jules–as a woman I don’t like the talk about rape either, because it has gone down. It’s always in back everyone’s mind…whether were male or female, mother, fathers, brothers, sisters but sensationalizing it doesn’t add much value to move us forward. I’m not marginalizing it either, because even one instance of rape is unacceptable.
              —-
              I must admit I’ve learned a lot from this kind of discourse too. Because once I’m in a relationship…I find myself tongue-tied and I don’t want wreck the mood by over-talking things or asking dumb questions like, “So, how much sex is good for you?” It’s kind of weird when you have ask your partner point-blank questions, because I know I’m not going to get straight answers.

              But also it is hard for women to communicate that we crave attention–about the same amount–men crave sex. It’s hard for me to ask for attention once I’m seeing someone. It sounds dumb when I say “Can you pay attention to what’s going in my life, or do I have to spell it out for you?” I feel like a 10 year old, if I have to ask for a man’s attention. So, it’s good to have these discussions in a ‘safe’ place.

            • @Joan…

              What similar sites for women would you recommend for a guy like myself? I do enjoy the pieces on HuffingtonPost-Women.

              If you could suggest some, be they feminist oriented or not, I would appreciate it. I like to get all perspectives.

            • I just found this site haven’t looked at yet http://goodwomenproject.com/ I guess it exists.

              I find hodge-podge and niche sites, like women’s health, fitness, beauty, religion, cooking, or family…but most have a love and relationship tab. Psychology Today has women’s issues. Youbeauty is geared toward younger girls. I recommend that fathers with young girls read some of those Q &A discussions…to snoop into a young girl’s life.

            • @Joan, goodwomanproject.com is a christian site I think. I don’t think there is an equivalent to this one.

            • Archy- I briefly looked at and I concur. This one appears to be more salient.

  25. @ Drew: hmmm…that comment is so outrageous.Unless you know for a fact that I support rape,I’ll thank you to not besmersh my character with such ungrounded accusations.I am not interested in dialogue with you.

  26. @Jules: I’m well man.My youngest son just officially graduated from UCLA.I went 3 for 3,all my children have college degrees.Not bad for a single father who ran away from an abusive home at 16.A man of means- who has money-deserves no more or less respect than does a man who has few luxuries.Just because that actor makes 500,000 doesn’t mean he is anymore or less intelligent or giving,or caring or compassionate towards others.I grew up around Danny Glover and his family.He bought our family home when my parents divorced.He’s regular guy.I would argue that blacks who have made lots of dough-in a practical way-mean little to the black community.If you had told me in 1968 that there would be black billionaires AND a black president in 2013 I would have said, “Black people had finally arrived.” I’ve never earned more then 40,000 in a given year,but I’ve helped put about 20 youngmen in college,who might otherwise ended up in jail.I don’t how much respect I should get for that.I bought pizza yesterday because the team hit a goal and every boy said,”Thank you Coach Mass,I was really hungry.” I,unbeknownst to them,choked back a few tears, and told them their thank you meant the world to me.I know where your actor friend can be appreciated.

    • @ogwriter…

      Congrats to you on you last son’s graduation from UCLA! I know it must feel special. I have a ways to go with my only one, a 15 year old son.

      I do not think the actor was trying to make about whether or not the $500K brother was more or less intelligent than the %50K man. He simply felt that he was not given any added respect for being a high status man. He brought more to the table and he was simply seeking some appreciation and validation. He had to go elsewhere to get what he was seeking.

      All Black men feel this lack of validation often from our women. I grew up in a very patriarchal family structure 4 generations deep. All fathers were in families. The women for the most part allowed these men to lead. The put food on the table and brought home money. They were all homeowners and the wives appreciated them for providing….

      So, when I came to Washington DC for college, I experienced some real pain from the DC sisters…

  27. @Raegus: I get that.I think your energy,cynicism notwithstanding, is needed as well as the specific experiences you bring to the table. Some of which of confirms the persistance,across generations of some of these issues.At the same time,men have for too long been puppy dog compliant,complicit in their own ruination.

    • It’s true. As bill burr said, relationships used to consist of a queen and her king. Now it’s a queen and her peasant.

  28. @Joan:I REALLY like you.Your funny and possess a good balance of guile and honesty.I am here in hopes that women like yourself will,as you wrote view men more broadly.I think female biases need to be addressed concurrent with male biases.And your right,for the most part,guys on GMP are well-informed.

  29. @Raegus: Check this out,maybe you can appreciate it.I was living with my girlfriend and a female I didn’t know, let a mutual male friend of mine know she was interested in me-she wanted me to sex her up. I avoided her,but she made a point of being wherever I was.Eventually,I had to confront her,telling her I wasn’t interested.What do you think she did? She started a rumor amongst my friends that I was gay?! My point is that many men have not had much “success” with women. I grew up stupidly thinking that most men had the same relationships and sexual opportunities I had.Understanding this wasn’t true is important and helps me better know why some men approach women as they do.

    • An interesting story but I’m not quite sure about its relevance?

    • @ogwriter….

      I can really empathize. Because I am very adamant about a limited number of sex partners, I often do not go after women who are interested in me. It not like it is whole lot. So, I am not bragging.

      Well, there was this one woman last year who, after I turned her down, said I had to be gay or impotent…I had known her for about 8 months through a mutual friend. She was so miffed that when I ran into at the same restaurant/bar, she gave me a nasty look and departed!

      She was an attractive woman who I am sure usually gets her way.

      But, no I certainly do not assume most men have much “luck ” with women.

  30. @Raegus: The point is that experiences like yours and mine are important to this dialogue because many men don’t experience women as you have.Which is why,I think, many men are naive and play the white knight at the hint of criticism aimed at women.Especially criticism around the sexual behavior of women.

    • I get the feeling most of the writers here are white knights tbh.

    • @ogwriter…

      I would go farther and say MOST men are naive and very sexually inexperienced. Unlike MOST women. Hence, they play the white knight .

      I was once one of those men. In fact for most of my life I was one of those men. I saw all women as good and to be protected and/or rescued…..Oh how stupid I was for so long.

      • What’s a white knight? Is that like an Emotional Hero or Rescuer, who she runs to when she’s has boyfriend problems?

  31. @Joan: You have nailed it,for me anyway.You speak to the frustration that many men feel with an empathy I don’t often hear from a woman. You are honest in an unconditional way that is refreshingly accessible. You could teach some women how to talk men. Men get that women want attention-damn do we know it-but there must be limits, otherwise we get taken for granted.Men have noticed that they have paid a heavy price-emotional subordination- to women for giving women attention.Swear to God,sometimes it’s like feeding a tapeworm.Worse-and this drives men apeshit,women take up most of the emotional space in the relationship, then complain about not getting enough attention. Personally,I ask a woman I may be dating specific questions about sex.I don’t want to hear any complaints about dissatisfaction because I didn’t know something.

    • Ogwriter- ‘tapeworm’ that is a good way to explain it. Emotions are akin to tapeworms inside of us, because emotions are not stable, not consistent, and they always need to be watched and fed. BUT that applies to both sexes. Emotions and emotional security is HUMAN and is not reserved for women…it must balanced in a relationship or something is going to go haywire. Men need emotional security and your feelings validated too. (many women fail to recognize this)

      We’ve all heard this stereotype, so I’ll repeat it “men are all insensitive jerks who look at women like objects and only have one thing on his mind.” To further that if you don’t fall into that stereotype, there must be something wrong with you: you’re gay, you’re impotent, you’re a virgin, you’re arrogant, you’re selfish…the list goes on. You get the point.

      But that pervasive stereotype—subtly implies that men don’t have feelings—which cannot be further from the truth. Humans are emotional creatures and quite frankly we’re all emotionally needy, especially today as technology consumes our lives.

      With that said, here’s the dumb thing I did 2 weeks ago. I’m talking with a guy friend (he’s 53, I’m 43) and he called me a name “Pandora”. I respond with “Ouch, you insensitive jerk, that hurt my feelings!” Really? Two grown people, acting like 10 year olds, calling each other names. Wow, how advanced am I? But we submitted to each other asap and laughed about it. That’s why I don’t know how people can have multiple partners and survive emotionally…one man and one woman is enough to handle, if we care about each other’s feelings.

  32. @Jules: The persistance of the rape narrative isn’t accidental.It is part of a well designed political strategy that started in the 70’s.The lesbian feminists community was central in this effort.Ironically,and this really upsets me,lesbians rape and commit dv against women.Of course,lesbians don’t scream,yell and picket other lesbians who rape women.It works like this.Feminists have relied on rape to bring passion,attention and money to the movement.

  33. @Jules: Yo what’s up youngman? I kinda figured you probably experienced the arrogance a woman scorned can bring to bear. I have, more than once, experienced it in all it’s glory. Been the whiteknight too.

  34. Joan…In general, a white knight is a naive man who thinks that wowen are all good and men are shady and untrustworthy because thet are men.Did you get my post about 30 mins ago?

  35. Joan…What do think the impact of your beleif that you didn’t need men had on men in society?

  36. Ogwriter— It’s had terrible impact. This is THE foundation of our big problems, in my opinion, this “I don’t need a man or I don’t need help” has had the worst effect on everyone and it has global-reach. I feel its negative effects on my life and you feel it your life.

    The underlying question is, do women still need men? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding YES. Women still need men. Women still need men and we rely on our significant males: our fathers, husbands, or SOs for self-esteem, security, and love. It comes in the form of attention or help. Yes, men still need women or SOs for the same things in order to feel respected, loved, and secure.

    I’ll say it out loud—we are ‘dependent’ on others. This creates that co-dependent feeling in a relationship. Co-dependence when kept in check is healthy. But someone made relying on others, co-dependence, and helping women ‘bad-words’, now we’re paying the price.

    Finances aside, men make us feel secure and guard our esteem; otherwise we girls get a little needy at times. (Don’t we all know it?) However, that’s what men do best; men guard us from life’s enemies and help us along in life. We forget that ‘neediness’ (clinginess) is woman’s way of saying, we need you.

    This is also why I’m convinced marriage is not dead, respect is not dead, and love is not dead.

    • Do women need men? Take a look at the crime rates by race in America to find out. Black Americans have a higher crime rate than white Americans. That’s a fact. You know another fact? If you take out the criminals from single mother homes the crime rate between races is almost exactly equal. The disproportionate level of women who “don’t need no man” in the black community is what’s destroying the black community.

      • And if you look at rates of poverty? I’d bet those are more of a correlation than lack of fathers. Do we need men? Do men need women? Probably not at this point in time, but shouldn’t we be thinking more about “wanting” each other? Choosing relationships because we want them not because we are desperate or relying on a man/woman to take care of us?

        • Poor black Americans commit more crime than poor white Americans. There’s only one variable so far that has successfully equalised the crime rate between the races when removed, single motherhood.

          • Are you from the US? There are loads of white single mothers, so you should also find crime rates due to that as well. I’d chalk the crime up to other things related to the economy. And racism. And historical pressures related to racism.

            • Race is a very complex issue indeed, which is why no judgements have been laid out or made, in regards to race. There are MANY variables involved in why a person commits crime. But only one variable being removed from the equation has resulted in completely equal crime rates between black and white people in America. I know there are many white single mothers, and they help contribute to the white crime rate. Sometimes single motherhood is something that happens, and there should be no stigma against that, but the GLORIFICATION of single motherhood in recent years (mostly by feminists)? Super-moms etc? I’m all for women empowerment, I really am, but I think it’s actually gone too far (or too far in the wrong direction at least). We have a generation of women thinking a father for their children is “nice, but not necessary”.

            • I am gonna put my computer away for a while, but I thought I’d say this. It is more complicated than “black women don’t like black men” thus crime. Do I think all kids do better (less crime in society) with two happy, loving parents (no matter the gender)? Yes I do. I also think that if one parent is shiftless and abusive, it’s better to find safety than be in abuse, for the kid as well.

              I also think that there would be less crime if jobs were more plentiful and not shipped overseas, if families could live closer together and share support of childrearing, if we had good public schools that were well funded (instead of gutted financially), health care that was offered to all, and an economic system that wasn’t based on greed and born out of slavery and the idea of corporations as persons. Slavery has had a huge huge impact on the western American culture and economic system and we are still dealing with today. See this for a good primer.

              As for needing, again, I’d love to see couples together out of want and friendship/desire than “need” because when people are having to rely on another (not like partners in crime in it together but because one person has no option) that’s totally unequal. And being equal in desire for each other and choosing to stay with a person not having to, I think sets a greater example for children.

              That being said, I don’t think people should divorce for frivolous reasons. Intimate commitment is important.

              To just say, well, it’s because black women don’t stay or get married, is simplistic.

              Good night, dialogue onwards…

            • @Julie..

              “Slavery has had a huge huge impact on the western American culture and economic system and we are still dealing with today.”

              Julie, I could not agree more. When I was in grad school I edited a term paper written by a gentleman from Cape Verde. It was a great paper. It dealt with slavery in the US. One of the things he pointed out was that slavery in America was the first episode where slavery was based on race. Previous incidents of slavery was non race based. There were Roman slaves during the Roman Empire. Even while the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, it was not race based.

              So, I agreed with him because his work was well documented. This is why I think you are so correct in how slavery has so warped American, black and white.

              Thomas Sowell, a Black conservative economist at the Hoover Institute wrote a book called “White Liberal Black Rednecks. Dr. Sowell is an intellectual giant. His work is often well research and common sense. He pointed out in this book that if you want to understand the behavior of inner city blacks in America, you only have to look at the behavior of the people who most influenced them: poor uneducated whites from the South. In essence, he argues and shows that much of the behavior is the same.

              I laugh sometimes over the t shirts called “wife beaters.” Being from the South, it was not uncommon to see rednecks arguing and fighting with their wives while wearing these t shirts!

              Dr. Sowell also traced much of this behavior back to parts of Ireland and Scotland where many of the white immigrants in the South originated. These immigrants, unlike the whites who settled the North, were largely crude and uneducated with a propensity for violence.

          • Raegus – if the sistas don’t need yo help or don’t need no man (slur included for everyone’s pleasure.) Then by all means, help your mom or someone’s mom. Better yet help me. I love help. I will never turn down a man’s help again.

            • Lol Joan, I don’t think you need help, you’re the first woman I’ve met with more of an understanding of gender issues than just “women were oppressed so we never have to pay attention to how men feel”. Admittedly I’ve only talked to women my own age about it (who have the passion of youth) but that’s the general vybe I get from older feminists too.

            • Archy…I don’t think Raeus meant that black women don’t deserve respect. He meant that they get percieved by some black men as not deserving of respect.

            • @ogwriter…

              And many black men, myself included, feel black women do not think we (black men) are deserving of respect.

              But, I am preaching to the choir here!

              Peace.

          • @Raegus….

            Yes, poor Black Americans commit crime at a higher rate than poor White Americans. As a Black man it pains me to admit it. But, such is the facts.

            However, crime is highly correlated with poverty, education, and income. With strong causality. So, since more Black Americans reside in poverty than White Americans AND educational achievement is lower, it makes since. So, I am just not so sure what being a single mom has to do with it? Being a single mother is also correlated with the same variables as crime. How do you separate the two?

            Thus, even if you were to remove single motherhood, you are still going to be left with higher crime rates for Black Americans. So, is single motherhood really the driver?

            • sense not since.

            • Thank you for all of your comments, Jules. I really appreciate your insights here and though I’m a white woman, what you are saying rings true for me from conversations I’ve had and books I’ve read, not to mention growing up in the south. As for the additional comments about feminism, thank you again.
              I’m a feminist, I know thousands of women and men who’d identify themselves that way, and hatred of men is not anything that happens in our slice of the discourse.

        • FYI, none of the women I’ve grown up with want to be single mothers. All have wanted partners. No one has welcomed divorced but seen it as something that bettered their lives and their children’s lives. Most women’s magazines I’ve seen have been about “how to get a man” not how to lose one, so as a mid 40’s American woman with a large group of women friends with kids, and as someone who has worked with a very wide variety of ages of women in and out of the arts, I see a lot of dating, mating and marriage before children. That’s my window and it’s middle class. I have no idea what it’s like in other class structures but my thought is I probably should spend time asking and listening, rather than deciding I know what they are going through and why.

          • Julie – you got it, we have problems across the board. But Raegus has a major point. Our black community is suffering. We can either let it go to hell or we get the crap attitude that “I don’t need no man and I don’t no help” out of the black woman’s vocabulary…because most of us have heard it. (at least Raegus and I heard it)

            It’s destructive to our black families and black man’s self-respect. He’s losing respect at home daily when he hears that. Where do men turn when they don’t respect at home? Other women? Crime? Work? Often they get fed up and leave. (this applies to any man of any color)

          • The problem I think, Julie, is that feminists are only concerned with taking men down. They don’t actually care about things like family structure and the needs of women. It’s not going to be as visible in your generation but in mine it is. Women are trained to hate men, act against men, men hate women due to their actions. It’s a continuing cycle that’s only going to get worse as time goes on. Just that right now it’s at the stage where most people can just keep these thoughts and feelings in the back of their mind. A few generations time though, I’m not sure.

            Look at Sweden, I went there once and the men are completely emasculated. They live in self-loathing because they were trained from birth to see themselves as evil for being born male. But the worst thing? The Swedish women were jumping on us (foreigners) and complaining about what ‘pussies’ Swedish men are. Yet they all supported the continued development of feminism in that country which turned their men into ‘pussies’ in the first place.

            • @Raegus…..

              Curious, what exactly do you think feminism means? Why did it come about?

              To me feminism, broadly speaking, is about the dignity of women. It is about women being viewed, treated, and respected as human beings. The movement originated because women were oppressed and treated in an inferior manner by men. Women were not according rights and privileges conferred to them by our Constitution. Hence, their Constitutional rights and liberties were being violated. Just what is wrong with trying to eliminate that injustice? Nothing! So, I have no issue with feminism as this is how I see it.

              Let’s compare it to the Civil Rights Movement. What does it mean? Why did it come about? It came about due to the long suffering and violence against Blacks. It came about due to us not being able to live free and enjoy Constitutional guarantees. So, it was about dignity and being able to live as human beings.

              Yes, maybe it (feminism) has gone to far. I don’t know because their is no one monolithic feminism.

              Women have, and deservedly so, a new found freedom. It is best for men and women. I would much rather date and be with a woman who wants to be with me because of who I am instead of my status.

              It is like guerrilla warfare. if you do not have tanks and airplanes to fight, you use car bombs, IUDs, ….Why? You are in an inferior status. So, if women are free to achieve the same heights as men, they are less like to engage in “predatory” behavior. You’re going to get the real person. That why it is better.

      • I’d also caution you to draw opinions about black Americans. I think it’s an excptionally complex issue race in the US, class, economic pressures, and racism.

    • No one really NEEEEDS their partners but it does help. If anything we need community, including police, etc for safety. It’s nice to have people there for us to help us but we won’t die without our partners. I think both genders desire their partners a lot for the benefits they get, I know I like having a loving woman helps me feel better and helps ease life’s troubles.

      • Archy- needs is a word that always provokes debate. You’re right we don’t need anyone person, but it fills our desire/craving to be loved…which is part of the basic Maslow-type Hiercharchy of Needs and Theory of Motivation.
        We need air, food, water, shelter (basic survival things) or we will die.
        Then we need security like police and community (to feel safe)
        Then we need belongingness and love. (work, family, affiliation)

        Having a loving woman is good because it makes you feel better and satisfies a need–I lump everybody into the “we need love” category…even Austrailians.

  37. Raegus…now,that’s 800lb Medusa in the room.I am one of the aforementioned black males and I work 5 days per wk with young black males.From that place,I say with absolute confidence, the systemic dienigration of masculinity by black women plays a role in the prevalence of dysfunction in the black community.To even suggest such a thing is to be hated by the community and by black women,for the most part.I heard from the time I was 12 these gems,all black men ain’t shit, I don’t need no man,black women are more men than black men…and this is just a small sample.

    • Guys, I know you understand it from an insiders perspective…I don’t how to get this thinking out of women and men (of all colors)…and replace it with something better. And maybe throwing an 800lb Medusa into the room is what it takes.
      Those ‘little gems’ you mention start in our homes and muck up a lot of men (and women).

      With that said. Next time hear/see/read those ‘little gems’, I recommend being proactive and let women know those gems are disrespectful, period. Reinforce women need help and women need men.

      And if they don’t believe you. Tell them you know at least one woman, who loves help and loves men. Send them my way.

    • @ogwriter…

      Personally, no black woman has ever uttered such stuff to me. My problem has been a different sort as mentioned earlier.

      I love that you work with our young black men. I do one 1/2 day per week of volunteering to help black men make better life and financial decisions in Baltimore. Sometimes, it can inspired someone (man or woman) just to see and hear in person a successful black man that is not a preacher.

      Last week I was in my local public library. Several high school black guys were in there on Youtube. Say it was four guys. I am familiar with them. They come in after school (around 3:00) and are noisy as hell and use profane language. Honestly, one day I challenged one of them over the loud talk laced with profanity in a public library. It is as if they just are oblivious and do not care. I digress.

      But, what bothered me that day was two young girls showed up. They all chatted…..When the girls left, all I heard was that “Ho” is this and that. That bitch is hooking up with that “N” Rock….I said nothing to them. Rather, I just observed. Several older white women were just disgusted. Anyone should be.

      So, my point is we have on the flip side too many young black guys showing utter disrespect for black women. We cannot have our sons showing such disrespect for young girls either.

  38. Julie… racism has something to do with it too,but is not nearly the force it once was.I know because I can compare my childhood to my children’s and there are other obvious markers. I am not saying racism doesn’t exists,but it ain’t what it used to be.

  39. Raegus…what you mention is the unmentionable truth but…Single parenthood isn’t the culprit.I submit that when a boy hears his mother say,all black men ain’t shit in ten thousand different ways there are multiple negative outcomes.I know from personal experience.

    • Well ogwriter I think we more or less agree. If you’ll look at what I considered the main culprit it was, and I quote – “The disproportionate level of women who “don’t need no man” in the black community is what’s destroying the black community.” These types of women are usually completely indoctrinated by feminism and think it’s some ode to women everywhere to emasculate their sons.

      I hate to keep the discussion on black Americans, it’s just that the affects of gender are more visible there. You can look on WSHH to see many clips of black men hitting black women like they’re men (the women are usually running their mouths), women have thrown away the respect they once unanimously garnered from men and it’s only a matter of time before this becomes common in all of American society. I can already hear it in how other white men (and pop culture) talk about women, there’s just no respect whatsoever. There’s your mother and your sisters and then there’s women, who don’t deserve any respect.

      • “There’s your mother and your sisters and then there’s women, who don’t deserve any respect.”
        Can you clarify what you mean here? Do you not think any women deserve respect or are you talking about a select few?

        • No, I’m saying that’s how more and more men are viewing women. Women in your family are just “mom” or “kate” or whatever and then every other woman is just a woman.

      • @Reagus…

        “These types of women are usually completely indoctrinated by feminism and think it’s some ode to women everywhere to emasculate their sons.”

        This attitude in the black community has zippy to do with feminism. This has been around even long before the feminist movement. When young black boys are raised by their mothers, I think it creates both emasculation AND loathing for many boys. Not all.

        I was told by a black man who was raised by his mother that he loved her dearly, but resented her for her harsh treatment of him. So, he pushed back not on his mother but on the women he met.

  40. Raeus…The point,for me, isn’t that black women are any better or worse than any other subgroup. Uri Bronfrenner’s ecological model of child development suggests that homelife is the most important component in the development of humans.Therefore,a poor homelife can be an extreme detriment to a child’s development. Overcoming problems at home,for a child,is almost impossible. As a man child who was raised hearing this kind of hateful,emasculating,language and suffered physical abuse–the language IS related to the abuse–I consider myself lucky to be somewhat whole and cogent. There is no excuse for it.Personally,blaming an absent parent, whether through death,divorce,separation for a child turning out poorly is illogical.There are examples of this everywhere,across class,economic status,race and religious lines.Too many of the boy’s I see raised by women don’t learn male toughness.

    • I wasn’t making a point about black women, I was making a point about the “don’t need no man” ideology that is prevalent in women of all races and using black women as an example of it.

  41. Raeus…Yo son…I saw…er…read her first.Besides,you are too young for Joan?!Seriously though,I feel you about her.You should know I have never,in my entire life,spoken to a woman like her.When one considers her views on healthy codependency and the accomplishments of her- life,traveled,educated—she’s marriage material dog.

  42. Good point.

  43. Jules…It was the Civil Rights movement that gave women the legal means to get where they are today—NOT FEMINISM.This is a misunderstanding encouraged by feminists because most don’t know their history and they gain from it. Civil Rights Act of 64 is the legal backbone holding up freedom for everyone who has been disenfranchised in America.Jules,feminism has a history of blatant racism.They refused,during suffrage,to allow black women to join them.More white women have sued for job discrimination than blacks.It was Civil Rights not feminism that freed gays.Hispanics,women and ALL other out groups.Secondarily,there is a single dominant voice of feminism that impacts lives negatively.That’s where the War on Women cry came from. Personally,I don’t think they give a rat’s ass about men,unless those men are white knights.The, we are not them -a monolith-meme,is an attempt to avoid confronting the really fxxked up aspects of feminism.Feminism too often refuses to confront it’s racist,sexist, classist history.

    • Exactly ogwriter! It was the Civil Rights movement that go women where they are. It’s always amazing to hear white women complain about Affirmative Action considering they were the _largest beneficiaries_ of that practice.

    • @ogwriter…

      “Jules,feminism has a history of blatant racism.”

      ogwriter, what in America does not have a history of racism? Seriously. Let’s just take labor unions. Blacks were forbidden to join labor unions. So, do we indict the labor movement as a result? I am of the AME church denomination founded by former slave Richard Allen. Mr. Allen was kicked out of a Methodist church in Philly. So, we have a history of racism in the christian church in America too. So, do we need to indict Christianity in America? I think not. Sometimes in life you have to let go of things.

      We live in a country today which has never come to terms with it history of slavery, injustice, and racism. It is genuinely trying. But, for some reason race and discussions of race just send people over the cliff. Honestly, I just do not get it. Especially when it comes to whites. I cannot to this day figure out why so many white get bent out of shape over a group of people: 1) they screwed over, and 2) are mere 10-11% of the population. I am being rational I suppose. Racism is anything but rational.

      Anyhow, I think you are judging feminism, as it relates to the black community, too harshly. I can recall a few decades ago when I believe the city of Cleveland school system voted to create separate schools for black boys to get them properly mentored with all male teachers….Well, the NOW and the ACLU got involved. On Nightline with Ted Koppel, there were black mothers who confronted these white women from these organizations. One mother I recall told the NOW white woman how until she has lost sons to violence and drugs she had not right to file a suit that blacked the program.

      NOW and the ACLU were not being racist. They were just being overzealous and failing to see that there are some things you need to back away from…

      I just have to disagree with condemning an entire movement as racist when so many aspects of our legacy and history are mired in racism.

  44. Raegus…I got that.Her point of view is rare and valuable.

  45. Julie…young people across the board speak to each other using hardcore language.I hear youngwomen refer to each other as bitch,ho,slut,etc.I also hear them use emasculation lauguage all the time.They learn this stuff from HOME.A mother said this to me about her son- a senior in a high school after hearing her son had a 1.89 gpa-“You mean I have another dumb motherfucker?I just got rid of one.”I can record this stuff for you,if you like,it’s that common.What do you want, girls calling each other bitch or boy’s?I teach the boy’s to give respect and demand it. I have seen and heard this stuff my whole life,it’s real and I’m tired of not being validated!Women fxxk up too?!

    • So, of course women fuck up. I don’t know what that has to do with poverty, cultural norms of communication, class issues around language, empathy compassion and all the rest.

      I’ve grown up with NOT any of that in my schools or work places…and there were plenty of women there. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe you, or that I don’t believe there are problems, only that maybe we have some extremely different windows on the world and that leads to bias confirmation.

      I know hundreds of young people from middle school through college, and work with hundreds of students each year. I see a window of behaviors and attitudes you are not seeing. I see feminists not doing what you are seeing them do.

      It just isn’t as simple as “angry single women” or “more fathers” it’s got layers and layers of dynamics involved and it has to do with economics, class, norms, access to education and health care and jobs and all the rest. AND, kids need as many consistent stable loving caregivers as they can get.

      And jobs. And health care. And safe schools. And media that doesn’t tell people to be narcissistic and selfish and all about “me” and a host of other things.

    • @ogwriter…

      Just because a lot of young people talk like that talk to one another that way does not mean we should condone it. We should strive to teach our children properly.

      The place where I volunteer is across the street from a Nation of Islam run center. The great irony is the NOI center does a hellva much better job than our organization. Why is it you think? I will tell you why: 1) they teach people to respect other people, 2) they teach their people to conduct themselves in a dignified manner, 3) they teach their people to respect AND obey the law, 4) they do not tolerate excuses, 5) no tolerance for slave thinking (use of the “N” word….)

      I tried to get our Director to “partner” with NOI but he almost had a cow on the spot! Even though NOI was willing to help without the religious message and component. You see, there is heavy lifting and tough love being demanded with the NOI regime. We did not want to do that. Plus, it would have endangered our grant $$$.

      So, I prefer the NOI approach. There should be no tolerance for the kind of language used by a lot of young people. NOI has a success rate that is 3:1 better than most similar programs for “re-programming” black men. Are they perfect? No. But, they have more of what we need, period.

  46. Julie…First of all,blackmalea are loath to ever publicly criticize their mothers.The black community considers this the ultimate betrayal from men.Few,beyond me, will even speak openly about the chronic “harsh” treatment that man told you about. Black women support this unreckoning.Which,ironically and tragically comes back around.This points out a major flaw of feminist ideology.If abuse were discussed and handled holistically,instead of along gender lines,we could get somewhere.Abuse was rampant in my house,headed by her.But the only person whose abuse mattered was that which happened to her not what she did to her kids.Feminism had no room for us too.

    • I have no argument, nor ever had an argument, that abuse isn’t indeed a universal human problem. I’m a feminist and had abusive women in my own life. I’m not sure, but I think you think I’m denying that women can abuse and that there are mythologies in place that support that belief. Human beings have had equal opportunities to be horrible to each other.

    • @ogwriter…

      Here I will not disagree.

      While I grew up in a two parent very patriarchal family, I strongly feel that black girls are favored over black boys. The expectation from a parent or parents is not as high for their boys as it is for their girls. That is plain wrong.

      Several years ago I got into a heated argument with another black guy at work. He was married with 3 kids. The son was the oldest and was a sophomore in college doing well academically. They had a daighter about to enter school. Well, he was looking for a car for his daughter who was, like his son, going to live on campus (different school). I asked him why did his daughter need a care if she was living on campus? His son I knew did not have one. His answer, “Oh, a girl needs a car. She needs to have a car.” I pressed on, “Why? If she needs one then so does your son” He was like, “He is man. he can fend for himself. He does not need a car!”

      Now, to me it was biased and ignorant thinking. Btw, all she was going to do was to be riding some degenerate around in it anyway or letting him use the car and tear it up..

      It was if it is OK to throw your son to the elements but my girl has to be protected. It smacks of this stuff often I read here about women needing protection from evil, violent, and sexual predators called men.

      I think this thinking in the black community is unique to our community in favoring girls over boys due to the disproportionate influence of the mothers. My Dad would NEVER have gone for that crap. Nor would I today if I had a daughter. If one get a car, so does the other, period.

  47. Julie…feminism made all of the harsh treatment even worse and added another layer of disinterest to the process.Feminism-my mother was one too-protected her from seeing her behavior as abusive cause women aren’t capable of it.

    • You hit the nail on the head right there. I hate to call myself an anti-feminist, especially as I still have to hand in pro-feminist essays, but I believe that’s the morally right thing to be in this day and age.

      • Reagus…Whats wrong with not being a feminists?That doesnmt mean anti-equality or anti- female.

        • There’s nothing wrong with not being a feminist. But feminism does have a lot to offer, it’s just used in the wrong way. It amplifies the grievances of women instead of solving them. Tell a feminist more women now attend college than men and they will cheer, what great news that is. Tell a feminist more men attend STEM courses than woman and it’s proof of institutionalised sexism and must be fought against vigorously. It seems like there’s no compromising with a feminist, either women have everything or they have nothing. They let their emotions cloud their judgment, in my opinion. Because they’ve been trained to view themselves as an eternal victim it doesn’t matter how many advantages women get, they’ll always crave more. The upper and middle classes could be composed solely of women and feminists would still be trying to pass laws against men.

    • @ogwriter..

      You know it is very rare to read where a woman admits to bad behavior of any kind, especially if said behavior fxxxks up a man’s life.

      Dr. Laura Schlessinger wrote a book a while back called, “Ten Stupid Things Men Do to Mess Up Their Lives.” The very first chapter speaks directly to your point about the harm women often do to men. She argues, and I happen to agree, that most men have the white knight view of women.

      The area where feminism fails is its utter refusal to chastise and criticize the behavior of many women. Behavior that many feminist women know is absurd and wrong. When feminist women, or women in general it appears,do not like the behavior of these women, they opt for silence instead of criticism. That is wrong in my opinion. Dead wrong.

      Of course those same self avowed feminist women have no problem chewing up Dr. Schlessinger or Michele Malkin, or Ann Coulter….

      Again, let the state that this is my only annoyance with many feminist women (most women in America). If the GMP encourage men to speak out against the wrongs of men, I think women can step up and do the same. It is your responsibility.

  48. Jules…I agree with Sowell to a point.Much of the customs the slaves adopted came from the Gentry or master class not just poor whites.What is really interesting is the possible connection of the American southern Scott Irish cultures and today’s violence in the hood.That culture was a honorbound society where respect meant everything and duels were common amongst the elites.Southern slave culture- men and women- was very,very, violent. Frederick Douglas describes a murder of a slave by her mistress that helped convince him to escape.

  49. Jules…the other issue is immigrants in the north were extremely violent,Not because they were poor and uneducated or Irish -which they were- but because they were forced into ghettos and tenements,sometimes 10-20 people LIVING in rat and disease infested room with no heat or water.Name the city Boston,NY or Philly they were crime ridden pits because labor demanded cheap labor from the government.

    • Julie…truedat,I believe you. However,the commonly understood truth is a purposefully calculated lie held together by mainstream feminism.And it pisses me off that those feminists who sold everyone the lie- women don’t abuse,women don’t rape-and have not been held accountable and don’t hold themselves accountable.They just ignore,rather than admit to hurting anyone and they have a lot of power.Any group with that much power,but no accountability,is dangerous.

  50. Jules…Check out The Female Brain website,I think you’ll like it.

  51. I’d like to offer an experience as a Latino and what I saw in my community growing up with regard to men and women.

    In my HS there were two types of Latinas, there were the girls who liked the thugs and losers and would date those guys, but not a academically inclined guy like me. The rest of the Latinas pretty much had the attitude of “Mexican (their wording) boys aren’t going anywhere in life they’re worthless. I only date white guys because they can offer me something”. That’s a pretty harsh thing for a teenage boy to hear. White girls don’t want to date you, you aren’t “hard” enough for some of the Latinas, and the rest think you are worthless (we had no blacks or Asians at our school).

    Obviously attitudes were different once I got to college, but that had a huge impact on me and how I related to women going forward. Very harmful to hear from the women of your own community.

  52. Jimbo…You know Jimbo I get the impression that women just don’t think they can hurt men badly with their words/actions. I have found much misunderstanding in America about the history of feminism.

  53. Jules…I hear you man.The problem is this hidden double standard of which you note.One of the issues is that girls are not seen as being bad-sexist- as the boy’s. Girls are told they can say anything to the boy’s and the boy’s have to respect them. For me and my staff,we don’t play that game.Respect is like a kithchen door at a good restaurant,it’s always swinging in both directions.Two of our best basketball players,before the biggest game of the year,screwed up in class—they didn’t play and we lost the game but we matured two youngmen.Both are raised by females.Most of our youngmen raised by females exclusively are soft and lack toughness;just a fact.

  54. Jules…I hear you man.The problem is this hidden double standard of which you note.One of the issues is that girls are not seen as being bad-sexist- as the boy’s. Girls are told they can say anything to the boy’s and the boy’s have to respect them. For me and my staff,we don’t play that game.Respect is like a kithchen door at a good restaurant,it’s always swinging in both directions.Two of our best basketball players,before the biggest game of the year,screwed up in class—they didn’t play and we lost the game but we matured two youngmen.Both are raised by females.Most of our youngmen raised by females exclusively are soft and lack toughness;just a fact. NOI is about discipline,structure and accountability which is what my staff brings to the table.We have this years NBA rookie of the year- Damian Lillard- from our program. We have players all over the country doing well and possibly more professionals in the future.

    • ogwriter I want to compliment the work you are doing in your community.

      I’m wondering how modern feminists (knowing that 99% are college educated and white) would react do your demands of respect from the girls. I would guess they would portray it as a man telling girls how to think, act, and feel. Then they’d write an article how what you doing is “patriarchy”.

      This is the whole problem with today’s feminists. They believe everything bad that happens to women is because of men and they almost never examine what they need to do among themselves to foster change.

  55. Jules…You might also like to read The Male Brain. The author is a joy!

  56. Jules & Ogwriter – You’re speaking words of wisdom. Respect is respect, it is colorless and genderless.

    As I see itn we have two issues going on: a gender issue and a race issue. It appears to be amplified in our African-American communities. The Civil Rights movement included the Woman’s empowerment movement too. African-American women in the 60-70s were not only empowered with political and economic rights, but woman social interest rights too. (Not to suggest that Civil Rights actually cured racism or discrimination, but according to the law, everybody became equal…and were dealing with racism and sexism)

    I know this is a generalization, I’m missing pieces of this puzzle, and you guys can straighten me out.

    The “lack of respect of men or disposability of men” is in our collective thinking today. Most men are suffering: black, white, Latino, Swedish, Australian, etc. MEN in general are socially disenfranchised. (I suspect is largely due to the feminist-dogma “I’m an independent woman, I don’t need a man, and I can do anything”, because we all grew up with those subtle and blatant messages). Men virtually everywhere are asking ‘What purpose do men serve, I’m just a paycheck that women can abuse at will?’

    But here in the US we have the unique race issue that confounds this, born from our history of slavery and racial discrimination. African-American women since the 60-70s have been exercising their political and economic rights and social freedom and power. (we all have been empowered to a greater degree)

    In a nutshell, she gained woman-power and black-power at the same the African-American males, only gained black-power and white women, gained woman-power. But African-American males were at a disadvantage during this time, as we were overcoming racism publicly, sexism overpowered our homes. It appears African American families suffered as group, because men were told they were ‘no longer needed’.

    I can’t speak for all womankind or white males, but I know many white men that are feeling disrespected and emasculated by women: they’ve lost credibility too.

    I know you can’t speak for all African-American males, but is it the general sense that black men have the double wammy from the African-American woman-empowerment?

    P.S. Not picking on black women only, because all women, me included, need to stand down a bit more at home.

    • What the heck are you talking about?

      Those women in the past, that’s a more likely time when women needed men for their paycheck. Shouldn’t that be the insulting thing? Like, the only thing those men were being required for was supporting women? Not because the women loved them, longed for them (their personalities, their knowledge etc) but that the deal was “she’d take care of his needs at home and he’d take care of her financial needs.” Sounds super romantic.

      We are in a time where both genders can discover what it means to “want” each other. To like, adore, admire, choose to be with each other.

      The entirety of our economic system has turned all of us into cogs that seek our meaning in how much money we make instead of the way we are in the world, “what we do” instead of “who we are.” Then our corporate leaders take those jobs away from people here and send them to other countries, leaving people not having a “what we do” to talk about, losing income etc. That’s where the lack of purpose is coming from, being expected to be a cog in a machine that will eat you up, isn’t like corporations of the 50’s, and realizing that to only be needed by a wife for money? I’d think that would release men (and women) from that particularly toxic bond and allow them to find friends and partners out of desire and choice, having it not be a “what do you do” but “who are you” relationship.

      Maybe that’s a bigger issue in men feeling disenfranchised then women acting and being equal in a house.

      Standing down? What the hell does that even mean? Lying to your spouse when you know they are wrong so you won’t seem like a harpy? Deferring to them when you should be honest? It’s a marriage and a relationship, there is give and take and equal mutual respect in how people treat each other and make decisions together, not in some weird system where there is a higher authority because of gender or money.

      • Joan makes a good point, I guess it’s up to you if you acknowledge it or not.

        • What is the point? That men need to be needed? We all of us want to find callings, connection, purpose in life. But that doesn’t mean one gender has to be subordinate to another in order to have that purpose. If that’s the case, we have far more problems than can be addressed on a web magazine.

          Humans “need” other humans” for emotional and group survival. But it shouldn’t be about paychecks, or gender roles. It should be about people coming together our of want and desire and respecting each other as human beings, forming family and group units and facing the crap the world throws at us, largely from economic systems out of our control that yes, does make all of us feel helpless and disenfranchised. Me standing down, whatever that means, at home doesn’t mean there are more jobs on the market to pay us a decent living wage, nor does it get us more socialized health care, better schools, and societal supports that other countries have.

          It might make a man, for a minute, feel like the big leader, but it doesn’t solve any problems. Both of us are in changing times, let’s be creative and face all those issues together, like a team, even if it means veering away from traditional roles.

          Standing down, if I’m understanding her correctly and again, I asked her what she meant, means not being an honest partner. And if a woman is dominating and not listening and respecting her mate, or if the man id doing the same, that’s imbalance period….

          As for roles, What if the woman loves working and the man loves painting and staying home with kids. Can’t that work? I think it can, I’ve seen it. Those couples work together to support each other and it isn’t about a prescribed gender role, it’s about respecting each other as human beings and liking each other because of that respect not “needing” each other for services.

          I asked her what she meant, by the way, and was talking to her, not you. Your condescension wasn’t really helpful

          • And…isn’t it insulting in some way only to be needed as a partner? Like, if 50-100 years ago the only reason I would marry was to be taken care of in an economic exchange (sex, children, and housecleaning for my home and board) then how could any man know that the woman chose him for him, out of want, not need. Wouldn’t it be more of a relief for a modern man to know that he’s wanted, not needed? If Joan, you felt women should “stand down” more in the household, which I assume means deferring to a male authority (so he feels needed), that also means that he would not necessarily be getting a fully honest connected and committed partner. If any one person in the relationship is dominating (and not in the negotiated way), that’s an imbalance period. But to stand down so that someone gets the illusion of being needed…that seems really messed up. I think men are better and deserving of much more than that.

            What about gay relationships? Does someone have to “play the man” and “play the woman?” I think queer relationships can show us the creative possibilities of what real equality and choice in roles look like.

            And I’ll quote a male friend of mine with whom I’ve been discussing this very topic, had this to say, “I think relationships are always tricky combinations of both need and want. All relationships involve power dynamics of some sort, whether handled gracefully, thoughtfully, equitably or the reverse. Whatever advances women have made in the last 100 years have been to slightly equalize their prospects in that constant and unavoidable negotiation. The idea that men have somehow “flipped” in that power dynamic is so ridiculous – historically, sociologically – that the author of it would lose all credibility with me immediately.”

            • I suspect people want both. They wanted to wanted and they want to needed too.

              I don’t think saying to a partner “I need you in my life”, would be offensive…as a matter of fact it has nice ring to it. Personally, I would like to hear that more often.

          • And finally, before I head out for the evening, I don’t get the clinging to the past, to the idea that the old ways were somehow so much better. It isn’t feminism taking jobs away from America and laying people off (leading to male and also female alienation) it’s corporate greed. But those corporations seem “male” and strong so how much easier to blame women for being more adaptable and taking jobs to support their families when the layoffs occur. It’s not the man’s fault he got laid off. It’s the greed of the corporation that wants to outsource his job to another country for less cost to the corporation!!! Meanwhile, someone has to pay the freaking bills? A couple who is in balance should be happy to have one person working, and I get it, I do, I really do, men staying at home in traditional female roles feel wiggy about it.

            So learn how to break your mind open and live in a different way. The system is what is screwed up, not the people trying new things. We all want to feel empowered and we all want to feel needed. Who doesn’t want to feel like they have a calling? A place in the world and a role in a family? Everyone does, but it isn’t women getting equity that is causing the economic devastation of men (and women) in this country.

            The cause in my opinion? Greed and lack of social support systems in a historically conservative country that places individualism WAAAAAY over support for the group, and what you wind up with is millions of people unprepared to adapt to a very new way of living, trying to use the “bootstraps” method when they don’t even have boots (and of course you can’t ignore the influence of age old racism and a very weird kind of America classism where “everyone can be President”, mingled with a Puritanical religious history in which might made right and if you where healthy and rich, it was because God loved you, and if you weren’t, then it was your fault for being a sinner) and then feeling individually devastated by the failures of an economic and governmental system that doesn’t give a shit about it’s citizens. Only money.

            So no, I don’t see “feminism” as the big bad monster ruining the lives of men. I see corporate greed and the above as a much bigger indicator of our current cultural emotional and financial breakdown.

            As for me, I’ve been married 20 years to a man, happily. Out of choice. We’ve both taken turns working, raising kids, making art, and not worrying about “getting rich” but being good, loving people, making happiness in the world. We have two boys and we are raising them to keep their minds attuned to “being” not “doing,” (as in who they are not what they do) that roles are fluid, that creative “yes-anding” the world and being willing to question roles, and mediated stereotypes of what men and women are supposed to do will help them so much more in the long run then being stuck in old ways of thinking, and that love and sex should be happy choices not economic transactions.

            But what do I know.

            • It might help clear up some confusion to let you know nobody is talking about economics here. We’re talking about relationships.

            • And economics on the meta scale influence understanding and experience of individual relationships on the micro scale. And I wasn’t really talking with you, but Joan. She and I are handling things fine, thanks. I understand what she’s offering, I simply disagree with some of her points.

            • Julie- we need you in this discussion, because you are elevating other issues.

              We can agree to disagree. One thing we can agree on, is that we both care.

            • Yes, indeed. Much respect to you, Joan. I’m gonna be out for the night, but will check in in the morning. Take good care.

            • You weren’t talking to me at all, but being that this is a page for public discussion I figured you wouldn’t be as offended as you evidently are by me interjecting. No need to throw a tantrum about it though.

            • You are funny! I wasn’t offended at all, more like..vaguely annoyed cause you seemed condescending. And if you think that was a tantrum, you sorely need to get out more. Or have kids. Lots of feet stomping and crying in a tantrum. Not nearly the same thing.

            • Get out more..To witness tantrums? I would’ve pegged them as being more of an indoor thing. And I don’t consider adult and child tantrums the same.

            • “Get out more,” if you don’t know, is an expression meaning get more experience. That being said, children can have tantrums any darn place they like, that’s why they are tantrums. Because the child is losing their grip about…the cotton candy at the zoo, or not getting dressed, and they just lose it wherever they are and indoor or outdoor, it does not matter.

              That’s not the point though.

              What I find interesting is that you see my snark at you, or my pointing out your condescension as a tantrum. Do you always accuse people of having tantrums if they disagree with you and push back? Is your snark and condescension to me a tantrum? Good for the goose and all, right? A tantrum, if I were going to have one online, would probably involve me calling you names, accusing you of horrible things, emailing other moderators to get you banned, stomping around my living room and swearing…but none of those things happened. I posted and returned to my thread with Joan. While lying calmly on the couch.

              So it seems like you were taking my disagreement and push-back and minimizing it as a “tantrum” in hopes of insulting me, making me look small, etc?

              You could have easily, said, “Hey lady, I wasn’t being condescending, what’s up and why do you feel that way.” And yeah, I could have asked you more questions about what I perceived as you picking at my posts, but I wonder why we didn’t do that.

              Probably because you were discounting my offerings because I’m a dreaded feminist (and because we’d argued before about racism and homophobia) and probably because, for me, I was assuming we’d argue anyway. that you’d made posts I strongly disagreed with and so forth. So our history has now created a nasty little dynamic.

              We should call it off, behave more equitably and kindly, and try to see each other as people.

              I’m for being nice, cause Joan is asking really important serious questions. And I just don’t see the point in us being mean at each other. It’s clear you have some really serious worries about how men will be in the world in this next 100 years, and it’s obviously really concerning to you. We may disagree about what and why that is, but I can see your frustration. But, I’ll let you make the call, Raegus.

      • I’m referring to women’s empowerment and that “I don’t need a man” sentiment and its effect on the male presence and credibility in the home during the last several decades. Many men have said, that they feel disposable, disrespected, and the only reason women need them today is for an extra paycheck (or something to that effect) I can’t speak for every man, but many have echoed they don’t want to get trapped in a marriage with a demanding woman who sees his as a paycheck. I think we agree that sucks for everybody.

        I hope didn’t imply standing down means lying to a spouse, that is not my intent. Standing down is submission to another’s decisions, authority, and needs…out of respect and love.

        We’re asking men to stand-up in our homes, families, and relationships, men want to stand up, and many are standing up. But it is very difficult ask men to take back the lead, if women won’t let him.

        For example decision-making. In my opinion, men do not have to check with women on every decision, if there’s respect and trust. The problem is when men are de-valued and disrespected to point where they’re afraid to make decisions.

        • I don’t disagree that people need to respect each other and that any partner continually questioning the other, dismissing them, (or doubting them, nitpicking etc) is problematic to the relationship. Or using the other, that’s not good either. That’s quite bad actually.

          I simply disagree that submitting to another’s authority is a useful model, or really means you are “needing” that person. It’s a falseness as I see it, it means denying my own skills and decision making ability and intelligence out of deference to a gender role that has served it’s time and my playing small doesn’t help my husband. His playing small doesn’t help me. Each member of a household needs to, in my opinion, share authority and decision making. I’m much more about consensus and collaboration than a hierarchical model. If anyone was submitting to me I would not feel respected, I’d feel as if something was very out of balance and that a manipulation was occurring.

          Feminism, as I was raised with it, and as I see it, encourages creative collaboration, new ways of bringing our full selves and intelligence to relationships, each partner “driving” sometimes, each partner “riding.”

          But I can’t see that as submitting, so much as …listening, talking, collaborating and making mutual decisions.

    • Joan…As I was explaining to Jules, the empowerment I get and have always supported. I have raised a daughter who is strong and independent.The empowerment shouldn’t come at the expense of men and it has.It wasn’t neccessary to condemn men as evil and the like to become empowered.

      The worst part is mainstream feminists don’t ever admit to being wrong and they fancy the4msselves as being morally superior to most men.They don’t have to answer to anybody for the many errors in judgement and in theory that have hurt so many people.And let us not forget that in the 70’sand 80’s they complained that the Civil Rights Movement was sexist and didn’t care about the rights of women.Name one law that feminits have put on the books that does anything for anyone other than themselves.This in my view is not leadership.
      I have little respect, if any ,for folks who bitch about fairness and equality who aren’t those things themsleves.

      • I agree we should raise strong daughters, but like you said, not at the expense of men. The world needs strong sons too. But who is raising them? It’s us, single moms, and the internet.

        I couldn’t name a law and obviously you folks have followed the feminists more closely. But Civil Rights on the other hand, brought equally to the sexes, races, religions, and rights to the physically disabled, etc. The Civil Rights Movement was successful, in opinion…we are finally equal under law politically and economically.

        But in the process, we’ve disenfransized males socially and many people are saying “Oops, I guess we do need men, we changed our minds. I’m sorry about the a$$ pain in the last 20 years, divorce laws, and broken homes.”
        My hunch, is that many African-American families may have suffered the most through this. My hats are off to you guys.

  57. clarification: sexism didn’t overpower our homes, women power overpowered our homes.

  58. I should have written..who don’t praftice those things themselves.

  59. Julie…The last time I checked,corporations and their board of directors and shareholders they work for are composed of men and women.Of course one could say that if women were in power things would be better.History tells a different story.

  60. Julie…The last time I checked,corporations and their board of directors and shareholders they work for are composed of men and women.Of course one could say that if women were in power things would be better.History tells a different story. Corporations have no sex or gender.

    • Oh. My. God. I”m talking about systems not people. Systems, norms, cultures and styles of operating. Does anyone get that? Like, systems of socialization that inculcate belief systems about how things work, regardless of the gender of individuals in them?

  61. Joan… In that place that is guarded with the utmost consideration and careful attendance rests the realization of my incompleteness. I know in my heart and supported by my research that men and women are linked physiologically.

    • Ogwriter…Agreed, when we let our guard down, we become vulnerable. But with that said, here’s a big hug coming at you.

      • Joan… As I have written before the condition of the men of color and poor people in general in America are the canary in the mine shaft for white males.I was shocked to find so many similarites of the problems that white men face compared to the rest of us men. THE FINANCIAL MELTDOWN CHANGED EVERYTHING.

        • We are all in the same boat. The majority of working class folks feel at the mercy of the economy. Oddly enough, the lower income families had lesser impact in the meltdown. It was the middle income families that took the biggest hit. This was wake up call for middle income guys, of every color.

  62. Julie…Reagus has a point in that the issues of concern for many men are relationship not sociopoliticoeconomic oreintated.Does one matter to the other?Yes,but neither I nor Raegus can prevent you or Hillary or any other woman from running for president. it’s tiring Dear lord,Shirley Chisolm,a black woman from Barbados, ran in 72,just 8 years after the Civil Rights Act was signed.Maybe its time women to stop whining for and instead start running for office.Random men don’t control corporations,government or other institutions.Occupy Wall St. got one thing right,the future isn’t about coalescing our energies around a new faction like black rights,feminism,or whatever.Its about breaking down those boundaries.

  63. Julie…I have lived through and been a part of feminism, the Civil Rights movement, the black liberartion movement,I’ve been a christian, an atheist,an altar boy and a criminalMy father was lost to me because of his service in Korea and my surrogate father, who was my brother, was almost lost to me in VN..I discussed the impact of socioecopolitical conditions on humanityover cornflakes first as a clever 13 years old growing up in the Haight Ashbury.

    The bottom line is I can’t tell a kid, boy or girl, straight or gay who is being abused at home, that it isn’t the fault of the person who did it.That isn’t fair to them nor is it correct.Are there connections to the issues you raise and the abuse, possibly, but the solution lies in the here and now.I have tro empower the kids I work with now.Your macro view of the world, for me, doesn’t allow that to happen.

  64. Julie…I’m trying to figure out the seperation of systems from the people and values that create,manage and implement the systems.Take slavery.The people that created it were already corrupt.The system reflected their values and beliefs.It is commonly understood in the political science community that systems created by people are a reflection of their values not the opposite.

  65. Joan…I believe that on occasion, needing someone,who is better at something than you,or gives you something of value, does require a kind of submission in certain situations.I believe this builds appreciation between couples of the other’s skills. Jules is right feminists don’t seem to understand the power of compromise,inclusion or of the apology.

  66. I like the Webster’s definition of submission I found years ago, because it doesn’t have scriptural or subservient baggage attached.

    submit: to offer oneself of free will, to cease to offer resistance, or defer to another’s opinions, decisions, authority, wishes.

    By this defintion, submission doesn’t take anything away from the individual and we don’t have to submit and accept everything…but we don’t have resist everything either. For example, try to get a 16 year old to clean up their room without a debate. They grummble and resist. Some parents don’t even command enough respect to get their kids to follow basic rules. But teenagers are a different story altogether.

    It becomes resistance and obnoxious when women challenge everything a man says or does. For example, she starts telling him how to do his job better or challenges his fathering ability or seeks everybody elses’ guidance instead of submitting to his guidance. This stuff starts driving men nuts, when her way is the right way and his way is always wrong. Aggressive women view submission as a weakness and they tend to challege everything a man does. Submission is healthy respect for another, in my opinion.

  67. Raegus…let me reframe my point about feminism. I compare my experience as a member of the Civil Rights movement,the feminist movement,Christianity and black liberation,realizing the most successful one,CR, was the most accepted and inclusive.CR taught me to love everyone,even my oppressors. feminism doesn’t do those things,it has history of teaching hate and disregard for others.A person is perfectly capable of treating people as they should by simply following the golden rule.

    • Raegus- He stated that well. CR teaches us to embrace cooperation, acceptance, and understanding.
      Some concepts imbedded in modern thinking, teach us to embrace separatism, which is fine as long as it’s not at the expense of others or careless disregard other’s values.

      History shows us, when we embrace cooperation, acceptance, and understanding whether it’s a race, religion, gender we win.

      I just visited the feminist site for the first time and I see glaring hypocrisy too. (Take note that feminist site is pink.) There was one article on chivalry and feminism. The same group of women who killed chivalry, now thinks is ok. In all fairness, there are some items of interest, but also things of concern.

      They advocate Middle Eastern women get out the burkahs, but they ignore the cultural, religious, marital belief systems of Muslim men and women. After spending a year in the Middle East, I learned the Islamic culture respects the opposite sex, marriage, and community a lot more than we do. In my opinion, they are dictating how males and females should behave in this country and others. Check it out if you want http://www.feminist.org/

      I appreciate this conversation, because it challenges my thinking too. You guys and gals are raising awesome points.

      • I agree with most of what you said, although I feel the need to mention that that website is actually just one feminist organisation out of many and not the spokesman for feminism. But yes there is a number of glaring hypocrisies within the feminist movement in all three waves. They believe they have the monopoly on wisdom and they can never ever be incorrect. Any man who tries to correct them is a sexist, any woman who tries to correct them is an indoctrinated ‘handmaiden’ (an actual feminist pejorative term for women who aren’t feminists).

  68. Raegus…In my view creating a social climate where all men are seen as monsters is encouraging hate.

  69. Joan…I might even suggest that between couples in love who behave as you speak,they access a spiritual dimension where deep connection resides.

  70. Well, I have hope that people can re-connect with each other and maybe on a deeper level too. I’m in complete support of ideas that bring people closer together, instead of driving us further apart. It’s much like this feminist behavior we’ve been talking about that drives men away from women. I know I picked on the ‘angry black women’ stereotype, but I picking on white women too.

  71. Joan…There must be better options than this for men…other women somewhere who are more ready,where culture is more able to include men.

  72. Raegus – First and foremost I want to say thank you for your insight, because you have been the star player in this discussion. I must agree those messages we all receive about what ‘woman should do’ and ‘what men should do’ is not limited to one site…it’s in our collective thinking. It’s almost as if women are the arbiters of gender behavior. We’re all confused by it.

    I used the Middle Eastern as the extreme example, because it’s the one pocket in the world that has been untouched by the western independent movement. I’m not surprised they resist western ways, because they are looking at our irreverent women, emasculated men, dysfunctional families, sexual promiscuity, lack of community, and they don’t want any part of it.

    I certainly wouldn’t suggest women don burkahs, but something’s out of balance. If our western culture is sending mixed messages “I don’t need a man, I don’t need a man’s help”, yet the same woman says “I need a Good Man; I need you to get off your lazy butt and help me.” These mixed messages are everywhere. And it’s been a slow process of disenfranchising males and male authority. If men can’t get beyond a 3rd date or even hope for a decent girl, we got problems.

    These messages have negative effects on women too…people like me who stayed on the sidelines.

    Let me share one instance of how this attitude affects women. A couple years ago I’m at barbeque with about 20 people, all married couples, except me. The topic of men and marriage came up and the wives systematically berated their husbands in a joking manner about how women don’t really men and men don’t help enough, etc. Off the cuff, I blurted out, “well, I still need men and I still love men.” Immediately, the wives launched into me about being naïve and furthered their crusade against men…in front of their husbands. The husbands couldn’t speak up and I couldn’t correct these wives either.

    About 10 years ago I knew there was wrong with our gender identity. I baked some cookies and brought them to work. The women copped an attitude and called me Betty Crocker and Susie Homemaker. I felt like I was defending the right bake cookies and share with friends at work. Someone feminist made cooking and cleaning a stereotype. I mentioned the Susie Homemaker comment to my mom who was about 70 at the time, she said “these damn today, they’re going to be sorry. She told me to make a choice, be a girl or be a boy, but I still expect you to work hard.” I understood what she meant, don’t cave into the hype.

    Many of us never stopped being women; we simply went to work outside the home–but adopted everyone else’s negative attitude. I suspect this is why there is groundswell of this good men and good women project. People are fed up with disrepectful women and the mixed messages, dating, and marriage world. Women aren’t going back to being homemakers, but it would be nice to move forward.
    The internet may be the vehicle to re-shape some of this anti-male attitude, but men must ‘stand for’ something instead of ‘against feminists’.

    • @Joan…

      Thanks for your wonderful contributions. You obviously see the big picture.

      While I have nothing against the feminist movement, I just think like so much else in the USA things have just gone too far. So, it makes so much out of balance. There are mixed messages everywhere. Nowhere are messages more confusing than over the issue of sex.

      “If men can’t get beyond a 3rd date or even hope for a decent girl, we got problems.”

      Third date! Are you kidding me. Most white men cannot GET a date. Being a black man mostly Hispanic and some white women, I have no problems getting a date. But, I will be honest: many of these well educated professional white women I avoid. They are just a pain in the ass. Double talk and hypergamy out of the ass.

      Many of these women rant about how hard it is to find a good man/nice man. But, they fail to mention he needs to 6 feet tall, athletic, making six or high six figures, Ivy League or similar education, handsome blah blah blah. It is endless list of requirements. The only reason they really want said man is for making baby and family for about 5-7 years and then they will shun him…..On to the next one while collecting lots of child support…It is almost like a hustle with these type of women.

      • I didn’t know it was that bad for white guys, but I know they have a harder time. Please help them with game, I know they’re terrified.
        This stuff crept up on all of us in the last 10ish years, I’m not surprised guys are depressed and angry. Nothing surprises me at this point about women.

        • I can’t say I’ve seen white guys have problems getting dates, shy guys however need all the help they can get. Why has the fear of rejection gotten so bad?

          • Archy—Could be past rejections or just media angst. Fear of rejection is universal…shy guys don’t corner the market on fear. It’s like anything, we’re not confident before we do something, it’s only after we do something we become confident.

            I recommend shy guys practice approaching women in ‘safe’ environments, like a grocery store. They can strike up conversations with women shoppers about how to cook broccoli or how to bake a cake. It takes the dating-pressure off by talking about neutral subjects. It’s good practice getting the marbles out the mouth.

            And to take it a little further, they can practice some eye contact and superficial flattery. Eye contact is big deal with women. Guys can easily do that once a week for a month and gain extra confidence approaching and talking to women. All a man has to do is getting a woman talking, she’ll take from there.

            • But didn’t you hear all the feminist articles saying how they don’t want to be hit on whilst shopping etc:P (sarcasm). I think men probably also heard too much from quite a few feminists on when it’s ok to hit on someone, and seemingly the advice is pretty much never unless you can mindread the woman and know she likes you first. I know it made me paranoid about when it’s ok to hit on someone, some would suggest pretty much never…

            • Archy–I thought about that might not be clear after I sent it.

              Shy guys can practice the art of striking up conversations in a safe place where there is no assumption of a date. His objective is not a date or a phone number, his objective is practice conversing with women, eye contact, like Jules said…listening, and taking an interest in her expertise without fear of rejection. For example, an 18 year boy can find someone who looks like a 40 yr old mom or an 80 yr old grandma and strike up casual conversation. He can practice how to flatter her on cooking tips or her secret family recipe that she shares…don’t flatter her purse or physical appearance. This is ‘the context’ I mentioned earlier.

              This is where many guys fall apart, because they are too self-conscious about getting a date or a phone number, instead of taking an active interest in her. This is also where the contractor in the beginning of the story fell apart. He didn’t pay attention to context or take an interest in my concerns; he was more concerned about getting a date.

              Maybe a good way to say it is, men can stop approaching women but start striking up conversations with women in general. Develop a sense of who she is, before even attempting to get her phone number. Just because a girl is pretty, doesn’t mean you want her phone number or just because a woman is 80 years old, doesn’t mean she can’t add value to a man’s life.

            • The website is blocking all my messages regardless of their content. I guess that goes to show just how ‘free’ speech is here. Agree with everything they say or you’re not welcome.

            • Raegus–we hear you and we want to hear your voice. The gender-blender issues affect all us and I think we all agree that men and women are in this life boat together: we need each other. These discussion boards are a great place to pinpoint and identify problems, but more importantly to solve problems.

              Men are good at solving problems. If I’ve learned one thing in my life, when I have a problem I reach out to men and they help me solve problems. That’s why I’m here.

            • Archy- there may be additional ‘rejection’ feelings from e-dating too.

              About a year ago I signed up for a month of e-dating. Wrote a profile, included a picture and some special interest stuff about me–talking points if you will. Probably close to 90% of guys start with Hi! or You’re Hot! or You have a pretty smile. Those comments deserve a ‘thank you’…but that’s about it. Men may feel rejected or frustrated, depending on a girl’s response.

              I accepted one e-date out of hundreds of intros, because of what the man said in his profile and his approach. He didn’t mince words. He came right out on the first email and said I like what you wrote about such and such, and asked for date. He wasn’t there to monkey around, we talked some more, and set a date.

              But e-dating is different; it’s okay to come out and ask for a date right away, because there is a clear assumption that it’s about dating.

              Men may want reconsider their e-dating rejections, based on their approach and profiles. Put something unique about your character or you as person in the profile.

          • While we’re on the subject of shy guys, or any guys for that matter, I recommend men NOT accept pity from women. ‘Pity’ can turn into a downward spiral of mothering or that patronizing thing that some women do, quiet guys fall into this trap. Instead tell women politely, “I don’t need your pity, but I would appreciate your support.” I clearly states you need support too, but will not accept her putting you in lower status. Just my two cents.

            • @Joan, Yeah pity is useless. I’d much rather her say sometime about how to talk to women, help me practice, give tips without treating me like I am a lost dog.

            • Yep, pity and criticism are deal-breakers for everyone; I know I’ve made a million mistakes in my life…I’m not sitting in an ivory tower. It’s really about taking an interest in someone else, and the more practice you get the smoother is becomes. You don’t appear to have problem communicating here. You’re speaking your mind candidly and articulately and mixing it up with some humor and wit, you shouldn’t have anything to worry about.

              One book I recommend, which is a classic, is ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’ by Dale Carnegie. It’s old, but it’s still used in business and interpersonal skills training today.

              My dad gave me a copy when I was 12 because I was really shy. By the time I hit high school, I was voted most like Doris Day, who was a sunshiny, friendly actress of the 1950-60s. I liken most of that confidence to the stuff I read in that book.

  73. Joan…when ARE white guys gonna DO something besides bitch about bad things?If they chose to simply exercise their power things would change…tomorrow.It is increasingly difficult to respect the constant whining. When are white women-on the sidelines gonna-make their voices heard?

    • I’m making my Army of One Voice Sideline heard and I’ve slicing-dicing on the net, but it’s not enough.

      This is one major site to unite men and women, and do it in a discussion, just like we did, instead of b-t session. Men are not getting solutions by bitching with other men…it only turns into pity party or derails.

      Thoughts, feedback, suggestions?

      • Yup!!! One Big Ass Pity Party by a lot of white guys! I have lots of white male friends. Good friends. They think I have the edge because I am a black guy and today all women want black men (even gay white men)…..BS. Most people prefer their own. But, will screw whomever they feel like if the timing is right.

        I tell them all the time: f**k what you are reading about what women want. They don’t know what they want! Believe only about 30% of what you read….I also tell them women have sex for about 1000 reasons. All this gibberish about emotional connectedness is horse crap! it only applies when they are married or in relationships. Otherwise, anything goes.

        Just do your thing. Make yourself attractive, dress better, listen, have some confidence, be able to read body language, stop acting desperate, stop trying to impress women with your job/car/wealth. Obviously these women are screwing somebody. My attitude: why not me!

        My grandfather was a big moonshiner. He use to always say, “Boy I am giving the folks what they want!” So, white men need game. If it is PUA, whatever.

        • Jules–exactly, people need to be careful of what they read. Because most women are not out there screwing like rabbits. There’s a minority of women servicing the majority of men and those women are dictating and shaping public thought about sex in some of these studies. If all women were that sexually active, men wouldn’t be having problems getting laid. Most men and women are reading this stuff, and saying ‘that’s not me, that’s not my reality’.

  74. Joan…If women on the sideline spoke up and whiteguys-mostly-stood up,things could change faster.

  75. Joan….I am often stunned by the passiveness of,in particular,men on this site,who seem to content to complain themselves into obscurity.

    • It gets better. Women’s Health Magazine had an article about couple’s therapy about 9 months ago. Young women are dragging our young men into couple’s therapy at 22-25 years old after 3 months of dating and are proud of this! Young girls are emasculating guys at 22 years old. What 22 year old man needs couple’s therapy and needs to hear that HE needs to change, from some chick he picked up 3 months ago? She’s bossing him around by month 3 and disrespecting who he is as a person. Women have lost their minds. Sounds like of shrews need taming, in my arrogant opinion. The troubling part is how many women read that article and thought, “Hey that’s a great idea, I think my man needs therapy too”.

    • I believe this site gets about 3 million hits per month? I’m sure the editors have some ideas too.

      One possibity is have controlled or moderated theme discussions each week, using the strategic approach.

      Google, Bing, Facebook, YouTube are large audiences.

  76. Joan…there must be a way to connect likeminded men and women thirsty for change…any ideas?

  77. Jules…Whats up friend?True story…I dated this golden uterus,who happens to be white,who left her marriage because her diamond parachute was unfaithful. We hit it off and fell in love,but she was used to his WEALTH-though she was a dental hygenist-and I’m middle income. She showed me her list of necessary qualities a man must possess to be with her-10-saying that I had all but one,enough money. Whatms love got to do with it?

    • May be that’s a good thing ask early…does she have a list? Run if she has a list.
      Money is not love. I must be a good catch now that I’m hearing more, makes my day.

    • I am not surprised.

      You can screw her brains out, but for anything more serious it all about the $$$$.

      This is why I keep telling my white male friends it is not about money just to get sex. A man can have “pretty eyes” and get laid. He can have “soft hands’ and get laid. He can be ‘cute” and get laid. He can be “broke, busted, and disgusted” and get laid, so long as the woman finds him attractive..Just the way it is out here.

      A lot of these guys think they need to kill themselves to become high status and all to get sex. No, what that will get you is married with NO SEX! I know.

  78. Joan…you are on to something.I think an Occupy Wall St. type movement for relationships,perhaps, could work. I am learning more about social media and it can be,if used correctly, a good way to go.

  79. Jules… Yeah,with her it was all a convoluted ploy to have sex without coming right out admitting it.

    • I tell women to get rid of those lists of requirements, all it does is put conditions on someone. That’s probably why she got divorced in the first place. You’re better off without her.

  80. Joan…I am fortunate to have lived on both sides of the hot third rail of dating.I went from unattractive to attractive in my lifetime. I feel for shy guys and I dislike the power imbalance and often times shallow,mean,indifference reactions they must negoiate to find companionship.Many times I think legal prostitution is at least part of the answer.Right now many 20 something college girls are being paid to provide”companionship” to sugardaddies.The lies,hypocrisies and flat out double sidedness of this stuff makes me want to stay the hell away from most women. I actually think the things you mention will work, but… is it worth it for men to do this?

    • Ogwriter–I hit frustration point too. Is it worth it to buck the system or just start speaking up when we hear disrespect for men? Collectively, our internal voice is telling us that women or feminists leading the social climate for the last 30 years has been, for the most part, a failure…it’s like girls-gone-wild, but not in a good way. Great news I as a woman, I now have the social right to be a sex worker, porn star, single, disrespect others in public, and not be judged, but I’m not allowed to bake cookies, use the word submit, be gentle with others, and share without being condemned. Thanks for progress ladies and one big social guessing game.

  81. Joan…As a practical matter,even IF women get the message,it will take at least a generation for change to happen. And liberal leaning men are hapless white knights who block efforts at progress.

  82. Joan…As a practical matter,even IF women get the message,it will take at least a generation for change to happen. And liberal leaning men are hapless white knights who block efforts at progress. I am looking elsewhere- at different cultures- for mating.

  83. Change takes time, we didn’t create this overnight, but information moves a lot faster these days. I think you see clearly where the resistance is but that’s to be expected, simply human nature. These discussions are surfacing all over the place regarding gender issues…men (and women) need clarity and are frustrated, I suspect most men are ready for change or least in need of a modicum of respect. I’ll brainstorm…

  84. Joan…one thing is true,according to the experts, about humans and change:1) they only do it if they have to.2) they only do it if there is an alternative.3)there must be a path to change. Men have got to force the hand and frankly I am in shock and awe at the utter ineptitude of men. It’s pretty damn sorry.

    • Those are excellent points to frame these issues. No worries, we’ve all been drinking the same Kool-Aid and we just accepted these things as reality.

  85. Joan…A closed mouth don’t get fed.

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