This is a comment by Apolloapo on the post “Are Men Lazy?“
“Your preferred title still seems to be implying the same thing – that men are lazy if they don’t plan their careers around giving women what they want.
“As for your questions, yes, I initially did plan my career to allow the option of being a sole provider for a family, and I pushed myself hard (I certainly wasn’t lazy). I don’t think this way any more though. A man who pays attention to the divorce rate (over 50%) and the percentage of cases in which custody is assigned to the mother (over 90%), and to how men are devastated financially and personally by divorce soon comes to the conclusion that marriage is a very risky proposition.
“It’s ironic that now women seem to want the very same thing that Feminists, only a few short decades ago, struggled mightily to free them from. You know, the thing that they claimed was caused by oppression at the hands of men? Perhaps it wasn’t really oppression at all, and now that women have gotten to experience the great careers we men are so ‘privileged’ to have they decide that they don’t like them so much after all, and would rather have what they had before.
“Unfortunately though, society has changed. Now we have Equality. One of the outcomes of this are the serious risks for men now associated with divorce. We also have an educational system that favors girls over boys, with the result that women now outnumber men in University graduations, meaning less men in high powered jobs. And we have a trend of delaying marriage, meaning that men don’t get the signal from women that they should start preparing to be a husband until their late twenties/early thirties (giving them more time to realize their growing relative attractiveness to women, and to become more aware of the risks of marriage before becoming committed). Also sex outside of marriage is much more easily obtained than in the past. For some men at least. The men who can get easy sex have less reason to marry in order to get sex (why buy the cow … ). The men who can’t get easy sex (coincidentally the very same hard working guys who probably could support a stay at home mum) get angry and drop out when they realize the script of being a responsible, good, nice man doesn’t get them the girl like they were told it would.
“All this adds up to bad news for women who want to marry and be a stay at home mum.
“Only now that women have been given the ‘privilege’ of having a career do they realize it’s not really a privilege at all, it’s a requirement. Those women are going to NEED to work those jobs to support themselves, just like men do. Like men have ALWAYS done. Don’t complain ladies, you asked for it.”
Photo credit: Flickr / virgohobbs
About the Editors
“one of the out comes of equality in society is the serious risks for men associated with divorce ”
The more accurate statement is :
” one of the many out comes of misguided feminism in society is the serious risks for men associated with divorce “.
Men do not have to believe in the ideology of feminism to believe in equality &
Since the whole discussion is based on the notion “we are all in this together ” as a statement of honesty & fairness it’s important not to dictate to the average man what to believe about equality in this discussion.
I was attempting to use poetic license, referring to the continually reinforced association between feminism and equality. However, if you want to get technical, then sure, “misguided feminism” is a more accurate explanation than “equality” to explain the cause of the marital risks I referred to. In practice though, so many of the equalists I know of, especially those with power and influence, are also feminists, and they approach and implement equality with a feminist perspective. Consequently, while technically there is a difference, in practice I don’t think the distinction between the two is actually as great as you claim.
Setting aside the marital risk issues the other examples I gave can all be attributed to “equality”, whether of the misguided feminist kind or not. Or to be technical, its due to unintended (I assume) consequences resulting from the way equality is implemented in our society.
Men falling behind in schools? It’s at least partially due to our educational system taking a more feminine approach to teaching, in order to address past poor performance by girls/women. Now girls are doing better but some boys and men feel frustrated and constrained by this system, and they tune out and drop out. With the problem of boys falling behind now well established by the way, I’ll watch with interest to see what the equalists intend to do about it.
The delay in marriage? In this case the drive for equal career achievements for women is causing them to delay marriage and family formation. The whole thing about easy sex is tied in with this as well, but is also due to a push to have an equal sexual standard for men and women. Men have reacted to these changes of course, in the ways mentioned in the original comment (unintended consequences!).
Anyway, my intent here is not to dictate what people should think about equality but to make a case for my own chosen perspective. After they have read my opinion, they can make up their own mind (and they will anyway, regardless of whether I relent and give my permission for them to do so).
“We also have an educational system that favors girls over boys, with the result that women now outnumber men in University graduations, meaning less men in high powered jobs.”
Simply utter bullshit!!! Women are simply going to college in greater numbers. We live in a time where cognitive ability is rewarded. Hence, a college degree in the appropriate field pays great $$$$. Take a family with a son and daughter in a middle class family. They will each qualify for the same amount of financial aid. Where they end up will depend solely on their individual initiatives, period.
Men simply are falling behind. I see this everyday with young males who are eschewing college. How can you blame the women? It is up to each individual to take the initiative. I have a 15 year old son. I do not allow him to sit on his ass and play video games. He has to study, read, go to the library 4 days a week etc…
As for men not getting high paid jobs…you must be kidding! White men still run America. White men still have privilege in America. Just look at corporate America. Who are the CEO of the S&P 500 cos…
Yes, marriage does represent risk to all parties, especially men if he is the dominant breadwinner. What is interesting, if you get behind the divorce data, is high income marriages have a much lower divorce rate.
And just why do you think only men should have high paid jobs? It is a free and open economic system. Everyone should have the same shot at it! You just seem to be crying and whining over change, instead of getting with the program. Instead of crying about the way things are, how about asking “Why?”
“Simply utter Bullshit”
Have you ever asked yourselves Jules, could there be more to the story then ” boys don’t want to study & they are lazy (video games) , or the other prevalent notion that the big problem stems from parents who should be doing a better job parenting boys when it comes to school.
Even if you look at it from an ideology perspective , in which you believe men deserve what’s coming to them & since the Alpha 1% are still running things (apex fallacy ) & besides since my son is doing good then the millions of other boys falling according to the stats are not my problem.
Simply utter bullshit!!! Women are simply going to college in greater numbers. We live in a time where cognitive ability is rewarded. Hence, a college degree in the appropriate field pays great $$$$. Take a family with a son and daughter in a middle class family. They will each qualify for the same amount of financial aid. Where they end up will depend solely on their individual initiatives, period.
Yet when the opposite was true…..When More men went to college it was something that had to be “fixed”
The deck has been stacked….Boys today are paying for the “sins” of their father’s. Somehow this is seen as justice.
“Women are simply going to college in greater numbers. We live in a time where cognitive ability is rewarded….”
The idea that the education system favors girls style of learning is not exactly new or revolutionary. Google it, you’ll find lots of support for the idea.
And yes, I agree that more women going to college will lead to more women graduating. Thats fairly self evident. But as you said to me… have you asked yourself “Why?” Why men don’t even want to go to college that is. It’s not only because the education system stifles, bores and represses them, but that’s certainly part of the reason.
“How can you blame the women?”
I’m not blaming women for anything, other than maybe not being happy with getting what they asked for.
“As for men not getting high paid jobs…you must be kidding! White men still run America White men still have privilege in America. Just look at corporate America. Who are the CEO of the S&P 500 cos…”
That’s an apex fallacy – assuming all of the members of a group are doing as well as those at the very top of that group. Fortune 500 ceos make a tiny percentage of the male population, they are not at all indicative of how the average man is doing. If youre talking in terms of how many men with average well paid jobs there are to support all the women who want to be stay at home mums (and I was, because that was the subject of the article that I commented on) then the number of fortune 500 ceos who are men is irrelevant. Unless we reinstate polygamy there aren’t enough of those dudes to go around.
And I was also speaking in terms of possible near future outcomes – it only makes sense that if less men in a generation are attending University that there will be less men from that generation in high paid white collar jobs.
“Yes, marriage does represent risk to all parties, especially men if he is the dominant breadwinner. What is interesting, if you get behind the divorce data, is high income marriages have a much lower divorce rate.”
Interesting maybe, but not particularly relevant when you’re thinking in terms of marital related risk faced by the average guy who isn’t overly well off. Put simply, will the average man have his fears of getting financially destroyed (or at least mangled) by divorce lessened by the fact that people who are better off than he is aren’t getting divorced so much?
“And just why do you think only men should have high paid jobs? It is a free and open economic system. Everyone should have the same shot at it! You just seem to be crying and whining over change, instead of getting with the program. Instead of crying about the way things are, how about asking “Why?””
I don’t think that only men should have high paying jobs. I implied in my comment that women should be working and stated directly that they will need to work to support themselves in future. That’s not quite the exact opposite of what you’re claiming I said, but it’s close.
And I’m not crying about the change at all. Frankly, I see a lot of positives in it for me personally. Maybe not so much for society as a whole… but me? Im cool. So no need to worry. I appreciate your concern though.
What I was actually focusing on was the difficulty that women who want to be stay at home mums will have in finding a guy who’s able AND willing to provide that lifestyle for her. That’s where dudes with high paying jobs would come in, because if women want to be stay at home moms, then it follows that THOSE WOMEN would logically prefer guys to have high paying jobs, so that those guys can support them.
As for me, my preference is that jobs be assigned purely and solely on merit, based on the ability to do that job.
For the record Apolloapo – I am convinced that the educational system is feminine. Jules should simply ask herself how many male teachers she had between kindergarten and college and the answer will be clear.
Further, she doesn’t want her son to play video games? LOL Video games are proven to improve performance so she’s already setting her sons back. At first it looks like a waste of time to play video games…but it’s also documented to have benefits when done a certain way. The reality is that as long as boys are primarily raised by women we will fall behind.
“Boys will be boys” and their fathers need to be around to let them.
@Apollo
I see what you mean now Apollo, my issue was associating equality with this new age radical & by many standards harmful ideology called feminism.