This comment was from Justin Cascio, responding to Danny and other commenters on his post “5 Ways Feminism Helps Men.”
For the purposes of this article, I’m talking about the social effects of a movement. It’s a huge movement and it contains internal contradictions and it has evolved over decades. I could write a similar one about, say, Christianity, that allows for how a large movement that contradicts itself (there are gay affirming churches, and there’s Fred Phelps and his family, for one example) can still have a coherent meaning, identity, and discernible effect on mainstream society. The points I made about the effects of feminism are not traced to one distinct school of feminist thought, and they don’t deny the existence of SCUM Manifestos, lesbian separatists, or the prejudices of leadership at the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival against trans women. The ideals that I have drawn from feminism can be applied to men’s lives. There are also people out there who call themselves feminists, who are hateful toward men, or indifferent, or ignorant. But they don’t get to define all of feminism, any more than Amanda Marcotte gets to decide what all MRAs are like. The total of people who speak out and call themselves feminists get to define what feminism is. I especially don’t accept the definitions of men who don’t identify themselves as feminists. It would be just as inappropriate for me to tell Christians what they believe.
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photo: shankbone / flickr
Justin writes: “The total of people who speak out and call themselves feminists get to define what feminism is. I especially don’t accept the definitions of men who don’t identify themselves as feminists. It would be just as inappropriate for me to tell Christians what they believe.” In reverse order: The critics of your article (including me) weren’t declaring to know what all feminists believe. We were expressing frustration of the negative affects of feminism on men, and the seeming inclusion of anti-male behavior under the banner of feminism without any consequences or policing from other feminists. Also, when you… Read more »
Everyone, men, women, feminists, masculinist, MRM, MRA, LGBT you name it we are all judged by those outside our sphere of identification based upon what we say AND what we do. In practice, what we DO is far more influential upon peoples opinion of the groups we ascribe to than what we say we believe. In this case we are discussing Feminism and the claim it is good for men, in case in point five specific items were listed as good for men. Yet when men, posting on a site called Good MEN project, take issue with the claims, many… Read more »
Well said TH, well said!
Why are articles concerning feminism on the Good Men Project the most heavily censored? It is not a debate when an article is presented lauding Feminism and then any dissenting comments are removed by the mods. If GMP only wants Feminists on this site then come out and say so and I’ll find another forum to discuss issues concerning men.
Actions speak louder than words. By their actions taken as a whole, Feminists are not for equality and not concerned with men’s well being. The regimes we vilify in the west also had good points, but their bad points overwhelmed their benefits. From a man’s perspective, Feminism may well work for in the interests of some women, but it does not work in the interests of most men.
The total of people who speak out and call themselves feminists get to define what feminism is. I especially don’t accept the definitions of men who don’t identify themselves as feminists. It would be just as inappropriate for me to tell Christians what they believe. The only way a group gets to wholly define itself is if it has no interaction with any other groups. Once a group interacts with others, it is just as fair for people to define what the group represents as any member of the group. Sometimes those definitions are fair and sometimes they are not,… Read more »
“There are also people out there who call themselves feminists, who are hateful toward men, or indifferent, or ignorant. But they don’t get to define all of feminism, any more than Amanda Marcotte gets to decide what all MRAs are like” First off, there is a distinct difference in you analogies. For one, the hateful people you say can’t define the whole movement are feminists in both scenario’s, so it’s a dishonest analogy to begin with. As to who defines the movement, no individual or segment defines what the movement IS, but they most certainly do define what the movement… Read more »
Mark Neill writes: “As to who defines the movement, no individual or segment defines what the movement IS, but they most certainly do define what the movement ISN’T.” Exactly. If there are unwritten rules of the governance of the feminist movement one of those rules would be that fighting for the rights of men is not mandatory (i.e. there is no policing to make sure members are egalitarian), it is *optional*. Also, when well-known critics (even ones who self-identify as feminist) talk about the excesses of feminism, they are ostracized from the mainstream branches. Warren Farrell (who served as chairman… Read more »
Should Nazi’s get to self-define themselves too? Because Hitler and most Nazi’s thought they were the last vanguard of civilization and European culture.
I define myself as: the person who is right about everything. Since my self-definition cannot be questioned it must be accepted. Now I say that Feminism is evil. Therefore it must be according to wonderful logic of Justin. QED.
Feminism is defined by the most powerful and influential groups like NOW.
They don’t fight for equality, that’s a lie.
More succinctly:
A group is not defined by its claims, a group is defined by its actions.
“I especially don’t accept the definitions of men who don’t identify themselves as feminists. It would be just as inappropriate for me to tell Christians what they believe.” We don’t allow bears to define themselves. If we did would they not define themselves as cuddly and harmless that they might gain our trust and gobble us up? We don’t allow criminals to define themselves. If we did would they not proclaim their innocence and walk free? We don’t allow members of hate movements define themselves. If we did would they not assume the mantle of “the good guys” and claim… Read more »
The points I made about the effects of feminism are not traced to one distinct school of feminist thought, and they don’t deny the existence of SCUM Manifestos, lesbian separatists, or the prejudices of leadership at the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival against trans women. And that’s the thing. When talking positive about feminism there seems to be a demand that we “just know” the positive comments are not including those negative influences. But then those who make that demand won’t pay that same courtesy to others. Again I’ll say that the feminists and parts of feminism that support the stuff… Read more »