“Women are not the benchmark for manhood.”

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  1. “They are not the end all be all benchmark for manhood that some of them like to think they are. It doesn’t matter how many you have sex with. ”

    Are you sure it’s women sending this message? In my experience it’s “bros” and the like who enforce the message of “get ‘pussy’, acquire manhood”.

    • Sadly there are women out there who even as adults think and behave as though the world revolves around them, and who police behavior (including male behavior) when it doesn’t mesh with their expectations.
      I’d like to think they’re probably in the minority, but no one collects stats on these things.

      • I’d like to think they’re probably in the minority, but no one collects stats on these things.
        I’m not sure about them being a minority of women but as you say there are no stats on such things. But even if they were more than likely the would only be used to shout down the experiences of men who have the lived experience of it being mostly women that enforce these things.

        In other words if any sort of study were to come along to say that it was a minority of women it would become nothing more than another in a long line of tools to minimize the experiences of men who have the experiences of it being a majority of women (majority of women in their own lives). Just another pat on the head and, “I’m sorry you had it so rough but not all woman are like that.”. It would be more used to excuse the women that do act like that and to minimize the experiences of such men than anything else.

      • You know, trying to tell someone what they have and have not experienced is actually pretty offensive. There’s no real reason to doubt what he’s saying, and so many different kinds of people and so many different sub-cultures out there

        There’s so much talking about some of the screwed up mentalities some guys have. And while I don’t know any guys like the one described, and resent it when people imply I’m somehow like them, I won’t doubt you when you tell me that those guys exist.

        And yet, just because it doesn’t fit the narrative you want to believe, when someone tells you about women enforcing traditional gender roles it somehow must be wrong. He must be mistaken, it was his guy friends all along, he just didn’t realise it?

        WTF? Seriously?

        • Come on now, I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of KKZ’s post. There certainly are those who have done that in this comments section, but I wouldn’t classify KKZ’s post among them. If anything, she’s confirming what was said. That she would like to think they are in the minority, but acknowledges there is no way to be certain ether way.

          Given Danny never gave a gender to who does the enforcing, only of the expectations, the goalposts (so to speak), KKZ’s pointing out women are guilty of enforcement too is actually support in light of manda’s comment, and should be recognized as such. Now, if your comment was directed at manda, then clarify that and disregard my post, because I wholly agree.

          • It was directed at Manda. I probably picked the wrong point in the thread to post it on, so sorry for the confusion there.

            KKZ, you’re pretty awesome. Nothing in my post above was aimed at you.

            It’s also somewhat in response to a tweet response to this being on comment of the day by Hugo Schwyzer (it wasn’t posted here, but it was even more on the nose than Mandas response (“They never have been.Men enforce the Guy Code on each other “).

            The whole thing was really getting to me, so I had to post up a response.

            • It’s also somewhat in response to a tweet response to this being on comment of the day by Hugo Schwyzer…
              Glory and mercy.

              His tweet: “They never have been.Men enforce the Guy Code on each other ”

              This is exactly what I have been talking about with Julie Gillis and the others in her recent post “Men Deserve Real Emapthy Not Deference” (http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/men-deserve-real-empathy-not-deference/).

              In that comment section I brought how the first step to truly empathizing with men is understanding the things that harm men. Well would anyone like to tell explain how we are going to confront the issues with the Guy Code when people like Schwyzer clearly have no problem making sure the top priority is ensuring that women are absolutely never held responsible for their part in enforcing it?

              I understand the desire to defend women at all costs but this has gotten out of hand.

    • It’s probably irrelevant who is sending the message – but the message received by many is that we are unimportant if we don’t have a woman in our lives.

    • Are you sure it’s women sending this message? In my experience it’s “bros” and the like who enforce the message of “get ‘pussy’, acquire manhood”.

      “It doesn’t matter if they think you’re a coward for not doing something that is against your own moral/ethical code. It doesn’t matter if you deem it necessary to defend yourself against one (meaning you shouldn’t be expected to put up with abuse, physical or otherwise, just because she’s a woman and you’re a man)”

      sorry, Manda, but many women send this message to men. And not minority like KKZ said, I believe its majority of women.

    • Are you sure it’s women sending this message? In my experience it’s “bros” and the like who enforce the message of “get ‘pussy’, acquire manhood”.
      Yes I am quite sure it is.

    • Have you really never heard the “no woman will ever want you anyway” shaming tactic? Or “you’re just lonely and need a good woman to love”? There are lots of them in this vein. The basement dwelling virgin is a similar attack.

    • @ Manda You do realize that some people have experiences that don’t match yours right ?

      • @ William

        Yes, thank you. I have no doubt that there is no specific gender attached to being a shitty person. So perhaps pawning off the blame on to women is a bit silly.

        • Projection. You are the first to have assigned the behavior to one specific sex:

          “In my experience it’s “bros” and the like who enforce the message of “get ‘pussy’, acquire manhood””

          William didn’t even restrict this to women only, he only stated that your experience (of it being “bros”) wasn’t universal.

        • Mr Supertypo says:

          “Yes, thank you. I have no doubt that there is no specific gender attached to being a shitty person. So perhaps pawning off the blame on to women is a bit silly.

          Oh there is no doubt that assholes comes in all shapes, gender and colors. But we should not minimize this with generics. Women experience bad behavior from men, and naturally this should is adressed all the time. But men also experience bad behavior from women, and it deserve the same attention.

        • “I have no doubt that there is no specific gender attached to being a shitty person. ”

          Do you? Because Danny never associated any particular Gender to who enforced these ideas, but you did:

          “In my experience it’s “bros” and the like who enforce the message of “get ‘pussy’, acquire manhood”.”

          So it seems a little off that you know try playing off the “don’t blame any particular sex”

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      As a DJ who goes around the best and worst places of the nightlife. I have to agree with Danny. This message comes from alot of women; also from guys to be fair. But the women part are not a minority and they should be minimized.

  2. Its very important who is sending this message.

    I wouldnt like to hear this advice coming from a woman

  3. Imagine a group of women who have sex with a particular man, or a particular type of men, telling you (a guy who doesnt get any sex from them) that ‘sex doesnt maketh a man’ and that a REAL MAN is one who is responsible, honest, individual etc.

    I would be skeptic of their message and feel they are not being honest. I would reason that the REAL MAN, in their eyes, would be the one who gets attention, affection and sex from them. I would reason that that man is worth more in their eyes, hence they consider him for sex, affection and intimacy.

    So, I dont want this message coming from women.
    I want to arrive at this ‘message’…this ‘lesson’ myself. I want to hear this message from other men who are just as sexually worthless in womens eyes, as me.

    A woman telling me this would be like salt on wounds

  4. I agree with you Danny.
    But it’s easier said and done for alot of men. ironacilly when you get a tight game and can get sex easily it’ suddenly easier to take women as just people.
    If women would be more forward and take their responsibility in the love and dating game then this wouldn’t be a big problem.

    • Perhaps more men should be open to the idea of prostitution to get a healty sexlife?

      • It probably would help with people getting more comfortable with their own sexuality by giving them a way to explore it. It could also provide a good outlet, so they aren’t so worried about sex when they’re interacting with women. The whole surrogate partner approach seems to be a good fit here, and it’s probably an idea more men should explore.

        But I’m not sure how effective that would be for addressing the self-esteem side of the issue. Having to pay for sex does carry an implied slur (that you’re unattractive and can’t get it any other way). Of course, having sex with other people just to prove something to yourself is also a pretty sh**ty thing to do.

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      If women would be more forward and take their responsibility in the love and dating game then this wouldn’t be a big problem.

      I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  5. I already posted this comment in the original article but I need to get it here.

    Here’s what I would add in as part of the cirriculum.

    To all the young men and boys here in this class, I would like to say:

    You are NOT at fault for the ills of the world. Don’t listen to the people that rub it in your face with “Men start all the wars”, “If women ran the world, things would be more peaceful”, “All men are rapists and criminals, statistics prove it” etc. Anyone who does that, you have the right to defend yourself, your principles and your integrity. This class supports, and endorses, you.

    You are NOT responsible for women’s oppression. People forget that society involves both genders so women are responsible too. But if anyone tries to pin it all on your shoulders, believing that men should get a taste of their own medicine for oppressing women a long time, you have the right to point out just how hurtful and exclusionary this point of view is. This class supports, and endorses, you.

    If any of you have ever been hurt by women or girls in the past or currently going through it, you MATTER! People say that men’s pain, when caused by a woman or girl, isn’t worth examining and likely have pulled the “Women have it worse” cannard. Especially towards male survivors of female abuse. In this class, YOU MATTER! No one is going to dismiss, diminish or invalidate your pain and sadness. If you feel the need to express it, do so. No one is going to judge or belittle. A safe, supportive, non-judgemental environment is the key towards building your self-esteem back up and defending yourself against the ignorance society pushes on your trauma.

    I would at least use that as the opening towards the cirriculum.

  6. Oh Danny! Bro, you NAILED IT DEAD CENTER! Men who live their lives trying to please Women, well picture a dog chasing it’s tail. “Treat me as an equal!” Except when the check for dinner comes or when paying for the movie or concert tickets! “I’ll decide when and if we have sex!” You just make sure you’re ready when and if I do! “You’re job if we do have sex is to figure out how to please me the way I want to be pleased!” But don’t dare suggest anything for me to do for you, that’s just whiney and selfish! If I wan’t expensive shoes , cloths, or jewelry, well I NEED these things to feel beautiful! It’s your job to figure out whethe money to pay for it comes from! “Oh, I also want an honest relationship. Of course that means you tell me EVERYTHING and I’ll tell you what I feel you need to know.” Guys, look inside yourself. The right way’s in there. If the women’s compatable great! If not, move on,theres plenty more out there!

  7. You know, I think most women DO believe they are “The end all ,be all benchmark”. I mean, here’s a site called the ‘Good Men Project’ and it’s pretty much run by women. Probably half the articles are penned by Women, and I would guess that at least half the respondants, if not more, are Women. The reality is, in 58 years, I really can’t think of any good advice on being a man that I got from any woman in my life. Matlack’s right when he says it’s up to us MEN to step up and advise the next generation of men (as well as a few from this generation)

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      Probably half the articles are penned by Women, and I would guess that at least half the respondants, if not more, are Women.

      Yeah, I find that a bit curious.

      I can’t imagine a site like Jezebel running articles by men with MRA perspectives.

      • Lisa Hickey says:

        Actually, only about 20% of the articles are written by women. It creeps up to about 30%-35% of the commenters. We’ve done analyses. For men who are looking for women on this site, they seem to be all over the place, but it’s just not true. I think what happens is that the really provocative pieces — which often have to do with gender — get a higher percentage of both commenters and authors.

        • Yeah Lisa. If you check out your ‘Sex and Relationship’ page, you’ll find of the first 16 articles listed, 9 are penned by Men and 7 are penned by Women. Look, I’m not picking on the GMP. If you check out Mens Health magizeine, you’ll find their staff to be about 70% or so Female (including their entire research dept.). I recently contacted a site called ‘Ask Men’, but there were no men to ask! That’s right. The whole contact staff was Female! All I’m saying is that if you go to any gyno-centric site, you’ll find 1 or 2 token males. Men however, it seems that Women want to be the ones telling them ‘How it is’.

          • I don’t know if Women can understand this (it’s NOT an intellegence thing!) , but when a young man is told something ‘Man to Man’ it seems to resonate more. It did for me and just about all my friends growing up, and I see it with my son. If I or another Man tell a Man how he should behave or approach a situation, even if he doesn’t totally agree, he knows I’m telling him for HIS benefit. Whereas if a Women tells him , he feels she’s telling me how a woman WANTs him to behave’ to please her! Which brings us back to what Danny states! What I see with my son is what I did when I reached a certain age. Mom tells you something, you ‘Yes ‘ her, and do whatever you were going to do anyway!

          • To be honest, I’ve never really been bothered by that – and one of the things I like about the GMP is the diversity of opinions you get. There isn’t one core message, it’s up to the reader to consider multiple viewpoints and reach their own opinion.

            And I like that, because that sort of thing nourishes personal growth.

            So, just as a counter-opinion to bobbt – I’m quite happy to see men and women contributing articles. Yes, a woman’s perspective is often very different from a man’s – that’s what’s good about having both.

  8. wellokaythen says:

    There’s a simple question of logic here. Obviously gay men are men as well, so clearly one does not need to have sex with women to be a complete man.

    Likewise, there are some boys just out of puberty who are having sex with girls or women, and that does not really make them men.

    So, when it comes to being a man, there seems to be something inherent in the individual, not necessarily in relationship to women.

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