This is a comment by Kevin on the post “I Grew Up With Guns, Then I Was Held Hostage With One“.
Kevin said:
“I love this essay. I love they way you told your story. And, truth be told, I’m not a fan of guns. I’m a firm believer that your right to bear arms ends where my right to life begins. I’ve lived in areas where gun violence has led to a minimum average of a murder a day. When I moved into a cool downtown loft in Hartford, while I was setting up my furniture, multiple people were shot just two floors down in street outside my apartment. And as an elementary teacher who grew up and taught in Connecticut (and has many friends who still do), the events at Sandy Hook have caused me to be very vocal about my feelings on gun control.
“You expose some important realities in gun ownership and use. Some guns are unnecessary for citizens. Some forms of ammunition are inappropriate. People can be responsible, law abiding gun owners, while also being somewhat (or completely) disassociated from what that gun does. And you do all of this while owning and appreciating your own firearm.
“I was for stricter gun control before Sandy Hook, before Aurora, before Tucson, and even before the assault weapons ban expired. I’m not going to try to pretend that I’m an undecided, middle of the road person here. A part of me thinks you’re crazy for still having a gun after being held at gunpoint. But I love that your essay is a middle of the road opinion. Despite what some commenters have suggested, I think your point is clear. If you’re going to sit there and say that there doesn’t need to be some form of gun control in this country, then you need to think about all of the people, not just liberal, bleeding heart, tree-hugging teachers like me, but everyone who has a reason to advocate for stricter gun control. You have to think about all of them and their reasons before you dismiss them. I get it and I love it.”
Photo credit: Flickr / teamstickergiant
Bill.
Had a thought the other day. Compare Waco and Ruby Ridge, Kelo takings and civil asset forfeiture to the bill of particulars held against the king in the Declaration of Independence.
Another theater shooting. Link is to Snopes.
Note lack of coverage.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/sanantonio.asp
In addition … Anon has a point you’re missing Kevin… The 2nd amendment to the constitution identifies the right (not gives the right) to bear arms… A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. We are the militia… like it or not it was added to the Constitution not only to protect us from foreign enemies but domestic…. including our own government Thomas Jefferson said “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is,… Read more »
Here is what I was going to send last week but couldn’t upload… lets see if it works this time… Don’t be sorry Kevin, just understand…. What you have learned about the subject is completely inaccurate, but as a “Good Man” I’m here to help…. And again. you still haven’t looked up the definition of Assault Rifle. I know the mantra is to push the Bushmaster chant, but honestly the AR-15s and AK-47s are not much different than a 30-30 or 30-06. In fact the 30-30 and 30-06 are more powerful. You can take ANY semi automatic “hunting” rifle and… Read more »
See The Battle of Athens. Tennesee.
I’m having to resort to replies to everyone. I don’t have enough time to address everyone individually. Sorry. Anon, you are not helpful in this conversation. For the record, unless you have an army of tanks and a few nukes, if the government turns on you, you’re in trouble with or without your AK-47. You shoot at the remote controlled drones with your handgun and let me know who wins. And really, the Afghan people have more freedom because they can have whatever gun they want without limitation? Well with that attitude, why have laws at all? Why have a… Read more »
Hollow points have the benefit of not penetrating through multiple people usually from what I hear which is a good thing, especially if you’re defending yourself around others such as your family. Someone mentioned that police advised concealed carry people to use hollow points to avoid the bullet going through the target into a few more people. I saw a tv show about Yukon men, they had an ar-15 I believe and I wondered why until they mentioned bears. Where they live I’d have an AR-15 and a very powerful side-arm, hopefully not having to use it much and when… Read more »
I realize there are other guns with the same capability. The problem is that most of the people on here jump all over me when I call them assault rifles, semi-automatic rifles, or anything else that categorizes them all together. Apparently, grouping guns into categories means I don’t know what I’m talking about. Same goes for the ammo. I can see your point about the bears and kangaroos, but aren’t those pretty remote instances? Does the whole public need unrestricted access so that people who run into bears can protect themselves? I would be ok with having a specific license… Read more »
Rare for many people yeah, not everyone needs it vitally like they do. For me I may want a gun, hell I want a full auto minigun to shoot old cars with but it’ll never ever happen (I am destructive to objects as you can probably tell, build it, break it, never people or animals though). Assault rifles are basically lighter than a light machine gun with full auto or burst fire capability, so calling a semi-auto an assault rifle would be wrong even if the same gun comes in full auto capability I believe. Semi-auto’s are considered an assault… Read more »
“Your right to bear arms ends where my right to life begins.” This is so backwards I can’t even believe it was written. If you didn’t know, the purpose, and reason for, the right to bear arms, is in order to protect life and liberty. How do you think someone legally owning weapons infringes on your right to life is just beyond me. In fact it is accurate to say: “Your right to freedom of stupidity ends where my right of freedom to bear arms begins”. I’m obviously not against you expressing your opinion, aka violating your rights, but the… Read more »
There is a guy named Massad Ayoob who posts on Youtube and is the most widely respected self defense/self defense shooting expert in the US. He is respected by everyone as the Go To Expert witness for trial. Invest the 45 minutes it takes to listen to his 8 part series. It will be time very well spent. Listen carefully when he talks about the documented penetration effects of a .45 Colt in Full Medal Jacket -which happens to be the standard type sold in this country since 1917. See, most cops are no more interested in the technical aspects… Read more »
Kevin’s work has, imo, two pieces to it.
One is that he either believes what he says, in which case he has a problem, not least with whomever miseducated him, most likely on purpose, and which makes him look bad in open discussion. Or he doesn’t believe it and is finding out an awful lot of people, more than he expected, know better.
The other is that he thinks his view of what somebody “needs” is grounds for policymaking.
For a man that is either balding or has white hair, you have a lot of growing up to do. Your response to legitimate problems is to attack the person who points them out. Do we not have more mass shootings than any other country in the civilized world? Do we not have more gun deaths per year than any other country in the civilized world? Do we not have a problem with gun violence in this country? Because any person with a basic level of common sense can see that we do.
Maybe we should restrict peoples right to have sex due to STDs. See how well that goes over with liberals. Sorry but AIDS kills, you have to get a marriage liscense and wear a govt issued chastity belt with a camera on it that requires you to get permission before you have sex. Guns aren’t just for hunting, or home defense, they are to fight organized armies. In Afghaninstan they have the right to own full auto AK47s for crying out loud. We are less free than them. If anything LESS gun laws should be allowed since the technology of… Read more »
And you want to ban hollow point bullets? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Hollow points are the only type that will not pass thru 4-5 people in a row. I get that you hate thinking about this kind of thing, but there is this thing called reality.
In a CCW class, a Cop will stand in front of the room and tell everybody, “Never use anything but hollow-points!!!”
And Kevin wants to ban them?
Do you see why deep ignorance can be a problem?
Kevin Semi auto firing rifles have been popular and widely available in the US since 1907. Since you have never fired one, why be so willing to pontificate about the subject? They have less punishing recoil for the same power. They can be very accurate. Magazines can be changed in 2-3 seconds so it makes little difference what their individual capacity is. Until specialized bullets were developed fairly recently, a .223 was not really adequate for deer hunting. It was not legal in most states because it was below the legal and humane minimum impact force. IOWs, it was not… Read more »
My Kevin, you certainly have strong opinons and I respect that, but I certainly hope you’re teaching the children in your charge to display a little more intellectual curiosity than you’ve so far demonstrated. Before you type another word about the “devastating” .223 round, please spend some time with Google. if you do, you’ll find that the energy from a .223 round is on the order of 60% of a 30.06 round, arguably the most popular hunting cartridge in the US. Look up other popular calibers, you’ll find very few rifle rounds with less energy than the .223. The military… Read more »
BC, there’s no need to be condescending. Why do I think that an AK-47 or AR-15 would destroy any animal that a hunter kills with it? It has nothing to do with the type of ammunition. It has everything to do with things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1u2ZFzaEeA You can tell me all about the different types of bullets all you want. If you’re using the gun in that video, you’re destroying whatever you’re shooting. You can tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about because I don’t own guns all day long. You can insult my intelligence, teaching ability,… Read more »
Kevin, you’re right about the tone and I apologize, it’s unproductive and unnecessary. The intent of my post, however, wasn’t to minimize you or your opinions, rather, I wanted to point out that the superficial understanding that most gun control advocates have of firearms is a major impediment to any productive dialogue between the sides. Your video is a great example. Is the type of shooting that individual demonstrates appropriate for hunting applications? Of course not. But the assumption you seem to have made is that people who select an AR platform rifle for a hunting application are choosing it… Read more »
If people don’t use it to shoot that way, why is it able to do so? If people only want it because it’s easy to mount a scope to it or because it’s extremely accurate, why does is it capable of shooting at such speed? If legal gun owners don’t care about that, why not take that aspect out of it? I don’t need to be a gun owner or a regular at the shooting range to be able to see what guns can do. I don’t assume that all gun owners want to go out to an empty quarry… Read more »
Kevin, many things in this world have a potential functionality that isn’t appropriate for every situation. I’m sure that you don’t drive 55mph through your neighborhood, that wouldn’t be appropriate, but that fact wouldn’t prevent you from driving 55mph on the highway. Even more to the point, why is your car capable of driving in excess of 100mph? When is that appropriate? Certainly never, but the overall functionality that it allows may be. The rapid fire capability is not particularly appropriate for hunting, but many people use AR platform rifles for sport and competitive shooting events. There’s often a rapid… Read more »
BC, I get your point about cars. I’m guilty of often driving too fast. But if there was an argument to make sure cars couldn’t drive faster than the highest speed limit in the country, I wouldn’t be able to say much in response. The problem is that people put more value in the second amendment than in any other. Repealing an amendment is not unprecedented. The right to free speech does have some limits on it. There are things we can do to make people safer that gun enthusiasts might not like, but would still allow people to buy… Read more »
So why aren’t you advocating for banning pistols which are involved in 75% of homicides in the U.S??????? And you don’t sit there firing round after round into an animal, semi-auto is mainly good for professional shooters doing culling so they can drop many animals quickly + also for home-defense if needs be though a pistol is probably better for that. A bullet that tumbles inside the body also does a hell of a lot of damage. a .308 or higher will do a hell of a lot more damage than a .223 as well. My camera can burst fire… Read more »
I created a great reply with a boat load of facts but unfortunately for SOME REASON, I don’t’ know if someone is filtering the replies, it never made it. Long and short, Kevin, you REALLY don’ t know what your talking about when it comes to rifles and ballistics… I will be surprised if this make it to the post… unfortunately it may be because some people don’t want to learn the truth.
Kevin. It’s not a minor modification. What remains is…semi auto and a scary look. As for hunting. The conventional deer-hunting round has been much closer to the standard Infantry round, such as the American 30.06, followed by the NATO 7.62 mm and their counterparts in other countries. Considerably more powerful than assault weapon ammo. The military gave up power and long-range effectiveness for weight. Now, as it happens, this is a big day. Chicago racked up its 500th homicide, mostly without assault weapons, which, as it happens, are responsible for a very small proportion of gun homicides anyway. Then there’s… Read more »
Richard, it’s not for hunting. What animal are you hunting with an AR-15? A deer? If you can’t hit a deer in 15 shots of a semi-automatic weapon, you have no business owning or shooting one. Any person with basic critical thinking knows that that kind of weapon combined with the kind of bullets that are currently available for sale in mass quantities will destroy a deer and make it’s meat and fur unusable. The only type of hunting it may be used for is a sadistic type of hunting that I’m not interested in protecting. Why didn’t this stuff… Read more »
Kevin. Couple of points. As I mentioned, fifty years ago at least one item which would qualify as an assault weapon was all over the place. NRA would sell you one for $20 if you signed up as a new member. That was the M1 carbine, a military item made by the millions for WW II and Korea. It had a small round compared to the standard Infantry round, like assault weapons, and was semi-auto. For Korea, the Army built the M2 carbine on the M1 chassis, if you like, including a full-auto capacity. For the M2, the Army got… Read more »
How about this… LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF AN ASSAULT RIFLE! geez… if you’re gonna have an opinion, at least get educated on the subject. NONE of the school shootings used an assault rifle!… An assault rifle isn’t legal in the USA unless you are military, law enforcement, or have a VERY special permit. An assault rifle will cost you about $20k minimum! Yes, everyone has a right to his/her opinion guaranteed by the one amendment to the Constitution that precedes ‘keep and bear arms’… but an opinion based on ignorance is not an opinion, it’s just perpetual ignorance. “The… Read more »
Sorry, Bill. I forgot that the makers of the Bushmaster made the minimum modifications to make sure that their weapons weren’t considered “assault rifles”. Yes, crazy people, when allowed to slip through the cracks, will find a way to hurt people. Like the one in China who went into an elementary school on the same day as the Newtown shooting and attacked 22 children with a knife. The difference? No one died. So yes, I think the availability of guns in this country should be looked at very closely and greater restrictions should be put into place. Why did so… Read more »
“because those weapons would destroy the game being shot.” Ummm no they wouldn’t. .223 is regularly used for hunting, so is a .308 for larger game. Some idiot firing 20 rounds into an animal will destroy it. You can argue that you don’t or shouldn’t need follow up shots so quickly. You’re also ignoring something, recreational sport shooting, target shooting and shooting car doors on abandoned junk cars etc. They’re legitimate uses that don’t involve killing. If I had more cash I’d have guns solely to shoot paper and water bottles at long ranges, I’d love to shoot a .50cal… Read more »
I’m sorry, but if you think that I’m going to believe that an AR-15 wouldn’t destroy a duck if you hunted with it, you’re sorely mistaken. You can continue to say it, and maybe even believe it, but everything I’ve seen, read, watched, and been told tells me otherwise. It doesn’t matter what type of bullet you use, an AR-15 isn’t a hunting gun. If you’re going to tell me that I need to accept your want to shoot abandoned car doors, I’m going to laugh at you. If the choice is between protecting the rights of innocent people to… Read more »
“I’m sorry, but if you think that I’m going to believe that an AR-15 wouldn’t destroy a duck if ”
Kevin. You shouldn’t have gone there, as the saying goes. An AR15 for a duck? A duck is hunted with a shotgun. Not a rifle. And AR15 is a rifle. Nobody would use a rifle on a duck, even a sitting duck. Do you think as many as one person is going to buy your argument? After this?
My cousin uses .223 remington ammunition regularly to hunt kangaroo, the same type that a civilian AR-15 uses. You use shotguns to hunt duck, and will destroy targets at close range. Do you actually know anything about weapons? You use a .223 for midsized prey such as kangaroo, if it is bigger or has a tougher hide like boar then you probably use a .308 or greater. What is it that an ar-15 does that makes it bad for hunting? It fires a projectile in semi-auto fashion, just the same as “hunting rifles” do. It’s not even an assault rifle… Read more »
So this is a hunting rifle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1u2ZFzaEeA
You need this to hunt kangaroos?
I don’t care what it looks like. It could be rainbow colored with a snuggie attached to it. It has no practical use except to shoot a target multiple times in a row. What are people shooting that many times in such a short amount of time? Car doors? Water bottles? If you can’t hit your deer or boar or kangaroo until that last shot, you have no business shooting that weapon. I don’t care what bullet you’re using.
Yes because people can’t control themselves when they use a semi-auto rifle. Why do people need a semi-auto pistol? The sheer level if ignorance displayed in these discussions by anti-gun people is insane. AR-15’s can be a home defense weapon used to hunt as well if you wish, people do live on farms you know and have multi-purpose weapons. And semi auto probably comes in handy if you are doing pest control and need fast follow up shots, sometimes animals do get into numbers so great that they exhaust the food and end up ALL starving so population control is… Read more »
Archy, everything you’ve said just strengthens my idea that all guns need to be more regulated. The reason I often focus on assault rifles (or whatever name you want to give them) is because they are so clearly unnecessary. Pest control? You think they’re useful for pest control? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1u2ZFzaEeA If this is the most useful way you can think of to take care of a mouse problem, you have a problem. I’m all for much greater limits on all gun sales. More thorough background checks, longer waiting periods, a national registry, a tracking system so the government will notice and… Read more »
“If this is the most useful way you can think of to take care of a mouse problem, you have a problem.” Now you’re just trolling or being wilfully ignorant. KANGAROO’S reach population numbers that are so high they STARVE TO DEATH and require culling so they don’t exhaust a food supply in an ecosystem, so yes a semi-auto rifle can come in handy there. Cmon, think a bit about why someone would need such a rifle. Linking to that video so many times makes me think you’re simply replying from a knee-jerk reaction instead of thinking with LOGIC and… Read more »
Kangaroos? I didn’t take into account kangaroo infestations? Shocking, seeing as I’m talking about the US and kangaroos don’t exist in the wild here. Name a pest in the US that require a gun the size of an AR-15 to hunt it.
In the US we have to have car insurance for exactly that reason, so thank you.
A special license that requires updating and more than just a one-time application? I’d be willing to accept that.
Likelihood of getting into a car accident is most likely a hell of a lot higher than your firearm being used for murder. If you want liability for guns then why not knives?
Dunno about pest species in the U.S, maybe deer? But from what I gather they are in the woods mostly which makes it hard to spot multiple at a time to cull quickly. Here they often use helicopters to shoot from and big spotlights at night
From what I remember of gun licensing in Australia they check your police history for violent crime, I remember needing one to get a license and you can’t own guns without a license. Buying guys at the mall sounds completely bizarre to me and especially when they’re given out by banks (if that movie was true).
“Pest control” in the US doesn’t refer to mice or cockroaches for this discussion. While we don’t have kangaroos, we have invasive species every bit as destructive and problematic, for farmers and ranchers in particular. Wild hogs, groundhogs, and coyotes are three examples of animals that often require “pest control”because of the damage they do to property and livestock. The .223 round and AR platform are excellent for this application. Kevin, I’m really trying to take you seriously. Please tell me that you realize that was the type of animal being referred to.
Archy. I don’t like to pull age on you, but about forty years ago, professionals who should have known better claimed schizophrenia was a lifestyle choice. IOW, no meds, no hospitals, no looking askance. The non-professionals are even more liberal, until somebody starts crapping on the sidewalk in front of their home. Not so bad if it’s somebody else’s home, of course. The last presidential initiative that had any results was Ladybird Johnson’s attempt to get junk yards to, in effect, cover themselves in the view from the highway. Or maybe it was to reduce billboards. Other initiatives have been… Read more »
Archy. Presidents can do that? Why wasn’t I told? Hell, why weren’t presidents told?
Jeez. What an opportunity we’ve missed all these centuries.
To be more serious, see “The Titticut Follies”–good explanation in Wiki. Deinstitutionalization of the demented is one reason. Attempts to avoid stigmatizing the mentally ill, and see Rosenhan lead to looking the other way at questionable behavior.
By that I mean the president to push for things to reduce mental illness, abuse, etc vs just similar knee-jerking away the type of guns that are probably the extreme minority of gun deaths in the U.S compared to other weapons like pistols.
Gun control is one thing but how about a major presidential push to change WHY people commit crime?
Archy
@ Getting people the help they need before they go about harming themselves and others ?
Now that’s just crazy talk.
There is stringent gun control in this country. Just not what you would wish. Do you have any ideas which would have practical value? That is to say, would not grossly infringe the second amendment? Would have a better chance of being effective than, say, the drug laws? Keep in mind that, if the border with Mexico is porous to US government guns going south, it is certainly porous to a return of the favor. The crimes you mention were committed with guns outside of gun laws, as was the act of murder. It’s illegal. Presuming I own a gun,… Read more »
I’m shocked that my comment was named “comment of the day”. Moreover, I’m shocked that people care enough to reply to little ole me! In response to Richard Aubrey’s question, I have several ideas about gun control laws that I think are some level of reasonable or enforceable without infringing on the second amendment. For example, I’d love to see gun insurance. We have car insurance just in case we have an accident. Actually, we HAVE to have car insurance to drive legally. And if we get caught driving without it, we get in trouble. Why not require gun insurance?… Read more »
kevin The accountability for what happens with stolen guns would founder when the concept is applied to, say, money. Or a car taken for a joy ride. One insurance company discovered that a third of their clients’ accidents were caused by uninsured motorists. IOW, being irresponsible in one way tracked with being irresponsible in another. Not likely that the insured ratio with guns would be much higher. Ammunition tracking wouldn’t help much, either. The shooters of note didn’t carry all that much. Couple of hundred rounds maybe. As one commenter on another blog said, ammo in bulk is “trust”. As… Read more »