Jamie Utt offers the Georgia Tech student who called women “rapebait” a sex-positive view of masculinity and party culture.
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My brother,
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I’m not sure you deserve it, and a lot of people are going to give me hell for it, but I’m going to try. Because when you wrote the email “Luring your Rapebait” to your Georgia Tech fraternity brothers at ΦKT, you touched on something much bigger than yourself.
You touched on a problem we see in masculinity and party culture on every single college campus.
It’s ironic. In the email you expressed the exact cognitive dissonance that I see with college men I work with all over the United States: You explicitly said, “NO RAPING.” Yet everything you described encourages rape!
So it makes me wonder: Have we sent you that many messed up messages about sex, consent, rape, “blurred lines,” partying, and alcohol that you don’t actually know what is and isn’t rape?
Have we, as the men in your life, taught you that many terrible messages about masculinity that you honestly think this is how men are supposed to act in order to get laid?
Have we sent you that many messed up messages about your own self worth and the personhood of women that you think it’s actually normal and acceptable to refer to women as rapebait (or any other terrible, objectifying term) when you think you’re only talking to your brothers?
If the answer to any of these questions could even possibly be a “yes”, then I have a responsibility as your brother to offer you some perspective.
Again, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, and despite what your letter tells me, I am going to assume that you don’t actually want to rape anyone – if not because you value the personhood and autonomy of your sexual partners then because you don’t want to be expelled, go to jail, and register as a sex offender for the rest of your life.
♦◊♦
So let me throw out an absolutely crazy idea: if you actually want to “get laid,” and you want your sex to be in any way better than a sloppy drunk encounter that may actually be sexually assault, forget about your 7 E’s of Hooking Up.
Instead, consider the 7 A’s of Hooking Up:
- Ask – See someone at the party that you’re interested in? Ask her a bit about herself (or him about himself – no need for heteronormativity here, but I will use the female pronoun since your letter seemed pretty focused on female “rapebait”). Get to know her a bit. And do so genuinely. I promise – should your night end with a hookup, your sex will be a hell of a lot better if you’ve talked and felt out the chemistry.
- Ask – Ask your newfound friend if they’d like to come with you to go get a drink. Don’t offer to get a drink for her, as there are some really messed up people out there (of which you’re not one, right?) who would drop something in someone’s drink. If she doesn’t want a drink, no need for “aww, that’s no fun” – sometimes sober sex is the best sex.
- Ask – Ask her if she’d like to dance. If she doesn’t, see if she’d like to play a game like bags or just hang out and talk some more. If she does want to dance, don’t do that creepy “rub your penis against their ass” b.s. that you described. I promise that showing off your ability to actually dance is going to a lot further in impressing her than grinding against her like a dog in heat. Then, if you want to grind a bit, ask! A simple, “Is this alright?” can suffice. Also, don’t just run your hands all over her body without her permission. Check in. I promise, asking is sexy.
- Ask – As the night progresses, if you have some chemistry and are getting along, ask her if she’d be interested in leaving with you. If she’s not, respect that. If she is, great! Just don’t assume that means you’re getting laid.
- Ask – Ask where she’d like to go – her place? Your place? Out on a date another time when you’re both more sober and can appreciate each other’s company a bit more?
- Ask – If it looks like you might hook up, make sure you check in along the way. Ask if you can kiss her. Ask if you can remove your clothing or hers. Ask. I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Consent doesn’t have to be plastic and boring. The single sexiest question someone can be asked is, “Tell me what you want.” Not sure how to make asking sexy? Check out this article.
- Ask – So you’ve hooked up. Maybe that means you just made out all night. Maybe you had oral or you “went all the way” (whatever that means). Rather than being a creep (“Expunge, send them out of your room and on their way out when you are finished”), consider this: Sex gets better over time with every single partner. The more you know each other’s bodies, the more you and your partner will know what will make for mind-blowing pleasure. Ask what they’d like in the future. Be honest, and let her be honest. Not really feeling something long-term? Say so. Really like her and want to pursue a relationship or at least a date or two? Communicate that. And respect what she wants.
Follow the 7 A’s of Hooking Up, and I promise your sex will be better and you and your partner will have a much better night. Oh, and you won’t rape anyone.
One last thing. If you’re interested in throwing parties where every person has an amazing time, where those who want to hook up can meet someone, and where sexual violence is not the end result, let’s have a conversation about sex-positive party culture.
I want to see you and all of my brothers and sisters have the kind of amazing, mind-blowing, sex positive experiences that are possible if we leave behind this toxic, rapebait bullshit.
In Sex Positivity,
Jamie
Also read, Want the Best Sex of Your Life? Just ask!
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Editor’s update: In a press release given to CNN, Cole Yearwood, Communication Director of the Phi Kappa Tau national office, explains, “the chapter has suspended the member in question and placed itself on suspension. An investigation remains ongoing by both the Phi Kappa Tau Fraternity and Georgia Institute of Technology. The chapter is cooperating fully.
The referenced email is extremely inappropriate and does not reflect the values of the Phi Kappa Tau Fraternity, Alpha Rho chapter or Georgia Institute of Technology. The Fraternity takes any activity seriously where its members or chapters are not in line with its commitment to learning, leading and serving.”
Photo: Flickr/James Emery
*An earlier version of this post listed the wrong fraternity name, based upon information from one of the original sources of this letter. This error has since been corrected. Thanks to a commenter for the tip-off!
Hi Megalondon You ask: “Finally, if you only want a one-night stand and she wants something more, “respecting what she wants” in that case constitutes politely informing her that you can’t give her what she wants, and then not taking what you want from her anyway. All well and good. But at what point in the interaction should the male person have to issue this warning and disclaimer? When copulation appears to be imminent? At the first act of physical contact?” If you invite her home with the intent to have causal sex, then tell her. If you inform her… Read more »
Basically, yeah…exactly….what iben said.
If you invite her home with the intent to have causal sex, then tell her. If you inform her before you have sex and not afterwards. And you inform her before you start to make out. How much time and interaction has been spent before the person solicits the other person to return to his/her dwelling for lecherous purposes? If the person waits until that point of invitation in order to disclose their specific carnal intentions, the other person might have wasted hours or the entire social occasion due to mistaken expectations of the other person’s intentions. If she had… Read more »
Hi Megallondon
The conversation between you and HeatherN is long . Obviously I missed where you decribe how you think it should be done.
May I ask if you can repeat how and when a man best can communicate to his paertener that this is a one night stand ?
Ideally before anyone initiates anything even remotely sexual…I mean before a kiss even, really. Earlier, the better, I say. Make sure everyone is clear on what everyone’s expectations/desires are right from the beginning. But, yeah, obviously that doesn’t always happen…so AT THE LEAST it’s up to everyone to make sure everyone else knows what they expect before having sex. (And by sex, I mean a wide definition…not only vaginal intercourse). Definitely before you do the whole “want to come back to my place,” thing.
And I just now realise you addressed that to Megallondon, not me…lol.
Aaanyway, I’ve made the whole question of consent really really simple. Check it out, everyone:
http://radicalcentristblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/how-to-avoid-sexual-assault/
Hi HeatherN
We are all part of this conversation.
It is my hope that people can have sex,make love without hurting each other.
I can not understand why it is so difficult .
Strange that you claim that the question of consent is “really really simple” and yet you mock and rebuff persons who want “strict, hard and fast rules” about avoiding sexual assault and verifying consent.
First, I’m not mocking. Frustrated, yes. Mocking, no.
But more importantly…”making the question simple” doesn’t necessarily mean creating “strict, hard and fast rules.” You’ll notice my little infographic there doesn’t actually create a list of rules or anything…what it does is pose a simple question which is also open enough that it can account for the fact that every individual is different.
”making the question simple” doesn’t necessarily mean creating “strict, hard and fast rules.” They do not mean the same thing, but a person might think that some definite rule(s) should be able to follow out of something that is definitively “simple.” You’ll notice my little infographic there doesn’t actually create a list of rules or anything No, just simple commands like “Ask,” “Stop,” and “Play Safe” with emphatic color and lettering. what it does is pose a simple question which is also open enough that it can account for the fact that every individual is different If the question just… Read more »
Look, I’ll tell you what I taught the high school kids when I taught sex ed…if you’re unable to have a conversation about sex, you probably shouldn’t be having sex. If you are unable (or unwilling) to communicate with the person you want to have sex with, to the point where you understand what s/he wants and doesn’t want and is able to know when s/he is “into it” versus just trying to be nice by going along to get along….if you can’t reach the point where you can distinguish between that, then you should be having sex with each… Read more »
if you’re unable to have a conversation about sex, you probably shouldn’t be having sex More context, please. You mean conversation and discussion about sex in general, or conversation about sex with the targeted person? Middle school and even elementary school children probably have conversations about sex and all the disgusting things that they heard that adults do or glimpsed from pornography. If you are unable (or unwilling) to communicate with the person you want to have sex with, to the point where you understand what s/he wants and doesn’t want and is able to know when s/he is “into… Read more »
Hi Megalondon You write: ✺”Disclosing those intentions from the very first introduction (instead of waiting to the point of sexual ) would eliminate that risk and problem.”✺ Are you afraid of wasting a woman’s time,or your own time? If you want to meet women strictly for causal sex, and not waste your precious minutes on talk with women that look for a boyfriend,the why not try Craig’s list , a sex club or the Internet ? If you start a conversation with a women declaring you are out looking for a partner for the night, may give results, but most… Read more »
Are you afraid of wasting a woman’s time,or your own time? Neither, because I have no personal involvement in such situations, and no time or interest of mine is at stake. But I would assume neither person in such a transaction wants to waste their time on a situation that will not yield the desired outcome. Some persons do not want to expend time on somebody who only wants “casual sex,” and some persons do not want to expend time on somebody who will not copulate with them. Even if they have disparate goals, I imagine people do not want… Read more »
Hi Megalodon
You write:
✺”I’m not trying to meet people for any kind of sex”✺
Well. Then lets end this conversation and leave the problem to those that want to meet people for having sex. ( with consent ).
No rule saying you have to continue a conversation. But discussion of a subject is not necessarily reserved only for those who have personal experience or involvement with the subject.
Hi Megalodon
We can agree on that.
The main thing is that clear rules about consent can prevent rapes,and gray zones rapes.
@Joanna Schroeder: YES we want to be asked. Say, “I’ve been thinking about kissing you, in fact it’s sort of been driving me crazy. Would it be okay if I did?” and if she’s into you, she’s gonna be into that or some variation. Once you’re engaged in making out, you can do something like touch the bottom of her shirt, smile and say “May I?” and wait for a “yes” or probably, at that point, a “YES! Please!” I have a question on this: If I get to the point of making out, and touch the bottom of her… Read more »
Here’s Louis CK explaining how it’s definitely better to make sure you have consent than to just go for it in case they prefer you’re more vague: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU
More explicitly and verbally asking is better, unless you are familiar enough with the other person that you can read their non-verbal communication well…and even then…better to err on the side of caution and risk not getting laid.
I liked the article; I’m grateful for men in the world like Jamie who are interested and invested in helping their brothers sort out the confusing cultural messages about sex, consent and communication. Surely there is no one-size-fits-all approach to dating and sex, but from my perspective, especially if you rephrase to make the advice entirely ungendered, this is as good of a rule of thumb as one can hope for, and CERTAINLY preferable to the rules of thumb from the original frat email.
I just wish I’d never scrolled down to read the comments.
I’m a little sick of these pieces. On the one hand, no, there is nothing wrong with the consent scheme suggested here. Obviously we’d be better off if partners communicated more, etc. But on the other hand, why is the entire responsibility for consent foisted upon men? As a man, what taught me more about how “consent” works, reading articles like this, or the fact that in a decade of active sexual activity no woman has ever asked me even ONCE if I consented to what she was about to do? This might be a radical suggestion, but isn’t it… Read more »
Hi Mike L
✺” I’m never asked if I consent to sexual activity”✺
Speak up Mike 🙂
Tell your woman that from now on,you want to be asked…..
Iben,
I respect where you are coming from, but this statement misses the point. It’s like asking women who are subjected to street harassment to go up to the individual men involved and say “Hey, from now on, please don’t catcall at me.” Clearly that’s something of an unworkable solution to catcalling.
Likewise, telling men that the problem of men never being asked for consent can be solved by talking to women “one on one” after they are already in relationships is an unworkable solution.
Hi Mike L
I misunderstood you.
“But on the other hand, why is the entire responsibility for consent foisted upon men?” It isn’t. It really really isn’t. But this is IN RESPONSE to something written by a guy talking about having sex with women without asking for consent first. And that original list was written in a culture which has conceptualised sex as something men do (and take) to and from women…something always initiated by men. It’s all well and good to emphasise that women need to obtain consent too, certainly…but we don’t live in a culture which has conceptualised sex as something that women initiate…and… Read more »
It’s not derailing in the slightest, even if it might be what you don’t want to hear.
Jamie begins his article by asking a series of questions about how we arrived at this point. This seems to be a likely answer. Jamie wants to know how we got here, and the answer is clear: women played a part and it needs to be discussed.
Hi Dan
Another actual woman here.
Yes I want to be asked, and it does not make a man weak.
Maybe it is the other way around , that weak men are the ones that refuse to ask?
Just make sure she is SOBER first. Because then she does not have the capacity to consent. Then it is rape.
I think you’re extremely inaccurate with “Ask if you can kiss her. Ask if you can remove your clothing or hers. Ask. I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Consent doesn’t have to be plastic and boring. The single sexiest question someone can be asked is, “Tell me what you want.”” Have you actually talked to women about whether they want a guy to ask permission before going for a first kiss or removing any clothing? I think you’ll find most women find that behavior weak and to be a real turn-off. And “tell me what you… Read more »
Actual woman here, Dan. Appropriately phrased, yes. I do want to be asked. Ask in a witty enough way, and the asking will actually make me way more enthusiastic about a hookup.
And as much as culture leads you to believe, we do want to take an assertive role in sex. Some women want to fully take over the sexual interaction. For others, well, “tell me what you want” is a great cue–it gives us the option to lay out boundaries, suggest some things we enjoy, and then relax and enjoy it. We don’t like guesswork.
Jamie wrote about that in the article linked a the bottom of this one. YES we want to be asked. Say, “I’ve been thinking about kissing you, in fact it’s sort of been driving me crazy. Would it be okay if I did?” and if she’s into you, she’s gonna be into that or some variation. Once you’re engaged in making out, you can do something like touch the bottom of her shirt, smile and say “May I?” and wait for a “yes” or probably, at that point, a “YES! Please!” There’s a risk she’ll say “no” but isn’t it… Read more »
That is good to hear. But when you say “we,” are you referring to all female identified persons?
You know that rule is often repeated “Women are Not a Monolith!” And doesn’t that rule apply even when advocating for a good cause? I am sure that lots of female persons do indeed want prior incremental verbal consent verification for all escalations throughout the transaction. But when you start using the unqualified “we” when making such pronouncements, aren’t you committing the gender “monolith” fallacy?
“That is good to hear. But when you say “we,” are you referring to all female identified persons?” Nope, she’s referring to all people. Some people want to be asked in rather specific ways, I’ll grant you…but no one wants to actually be sexually assaulted. Absolutely everyone (unless they are suffering from some sort of mental illness) wants to have sex with someone who has first obtained consent in some way. Even so-called “rape fantasies” because they very act of having negotiated a “rape fantasy” means that it is actually no longer rape, because consent has been given. I have… Read more »
And before someone comes in here and says “oh but I know this one chick who always thought that guys should just know and hated it when men asked”…well yes, there are 7 billion people on the planet, so of course you can’t really say anything absolute about people. However, even when you’ve got people who think that the other person “should just know,” they STILL want to be ‘asked,’ they just think that the ‘asking’ is all being done non-vocally and that they’re giving out the right signals and all that. That goes hand in hand with the nonsense… Read more »
Well, of course avoidance of rape is more important than achieving copulation. And if it should not be left to chance, then implicit and unspoken consent is grossly insufficient. Every act, segment, increment, and transition must be explicitly and separately negotiated and consented to beforehand.
Right, see now I’m reading what you say and I think you mean that to be an outrageous statement…but basically, yeah…everything does need to be negotiated first. Mind, negotiating consent in a longer-term relationship is quite different to negotiating in a one-night stand. As time goes on, you both become more aware of what boundaries exist, what each other likes, etc…so a simple “let’s get freaky,” can be sufficient if you and your partner(s) understand what ‘freaky’ means, exactly. Consent seriously isn’t difficult. It’s all about making sure everyone is on the same page. That’s all…just making sure that you… Read more »
but basically, yeah…everything does need to be negotiated first Alright then. Then explicit and verbal prior consent of the example Schroeder gave should be the minimum requirement for every sexual transaction in whatever context. Implicit or non-verbal consent should be condemned as insufficient. Mind, negotiating consent in a longer-term relationship is quite different to negotiating in a one-night stand. I do not see why. Relationship and familiarity do not give one person any sexual rights, entitlements, or expectations over another person. A person has no more sexual entitlement to his/her spouse than he/she has with any stranger. Every single sexual… Read more »
Hoooooly moly. So, first, let’s stop referring to sex as a “sexual transaction.” Unless we’re talking about prostitution…there is no ‘transaction.’ It’s play, expression of emotion, a communicative act, etc…but it isn’t a ‘transaction.’ Second, as I said, the reason consent within a long-term relationship CAN look different is because of familiarity. Of course boundaries change, which is why the lines of communication need to be kept open. If you and your partner(s) are out of sync, then obviously more explicit discussions of consent and sex are needed. If you are more in sync, then there is less need for… Read more »
So, first, let’s stop referring to sex as a “sexual transaction.” Unless we’re talking about prostitution…there is no ‘transaction.’ It’s play, expression of emotion, a communicative act, etc…but it isn’t a ‘transaction.’ No, that is what it is, and that is what I shall call it. I refer to it as “transaction” because it is limited encounter in which activity is performed and exchanged and then terminates. That describes most social encounters, not just prostitution. When two kids play catch, that too is a transaction. They meet for this encounter, engage in a designated activity, and then the encounter terminates… Read more »
Right-o, so I’m just replying to this bit…here is a definition of transaction via Merriam Webster.
“an occurrence in which goods, services, or money are passed from one person, account, etc., to another.”
If that is how you perceive sex, then there is a problem, mate. Sex is a shared experience, not an exchange of “goods, services or money.” I have sex WITH a person…I interact WITH that person.
Right-o, so I’m just replying to this bit…here is a definition of transaction via Merriam Webster. “an occurrence in which goods, services, or money are passed from one person, account, etc., to another.” And I do not read the terms “goods” and “services” as being exclusively commercial or pecuniary in nature. One may consider copulation to be a “service” and one may consider sexual culmination, conjugal and emotional proximity to be intangible “goods.” And it’s not as if commercial and pecuniary matters never overlap with matters of copulation and intimacy (even when it is not prostitution). And anyway, here is… Read more »
If that is how you perceive sex, then there is a problem, mate. Sex is a shared experience, not an exchange of “goods, services or money.” I have sex WITH a person…I interact WITH that person. You may find it discomfiting, but that is probably the safe and “sober” way of perceiving copulation, for all parties concerned. The author of this post is warning against the pernicious effect of inebriation during copulation. Emotional indulgence and intensity can be their own form of inebriation and danger. I have sex WITH a person…I interact WITH that person. Why do you capitalize the… Read more »
“Not that they would rape another person, but once they obtain consent (however begrudging), they don’t care how much the other person may be hating it.” That is rape! Consent is not a one-time “once you say yes then you can’t take it back” sort of thing. If someone says “yes” and then indicates that they are not enjoying the experience, it’s time to stop and for the person who was enjoying it to ASK what is going on. “Those examples are to disprove the notion that any discussion of sexual subject matter must be enjoyable and titillating for those… Read more »
That is rape! Consent is not a one-time “once you say yes then you can’t take it back” sort of thing. If someone says “yes” and then indicates that they are not enjoying the experience, it’s time to stop and for the person who was enjoying it to ASK what is going on. I am not saying consent is a one-time “no take back” thing. If the other person rescinds consent, then it should stop. However, even if the other person is visibly not enjoying the activity, it does not necessarily mean that consent has been rescinded. If the other… Read more »
Is it just me, or does this Megalodon character bear a striking resemblance to Ignatius J. Reilly? Sorry, off-topic…
Nope, she’s referring to all people. Claiming to speak for all people sounds like even more of a “monolith” fallacy than claiming to speak for all female persons. no one wants to actually be sexually assaulted. Absolutely everyone (unless they are suffering from some sort of mental illness) wants to have sex with someone who has first obtained consent in some way But she did not posit an example of general consent. When speaking as “we,” she used the example of a suitor asking if he can kiss the other person, asking if he can put his hand in a… Read more »
“If a person tells somebody beforehand that he can copulate with her body if she becomes intoxicated and unconscious, would that actually satisfy the requirements of consent?” I go with yes and no. If she were sober and mentally healthy enough to make that decision at the time that she told someone they could have sex with her after she gets too drunk to make that decision…then that totally satisfies the requirements of consent. HOWEVER now that she’s so intoxicated she can’t consent, she’s no longer able to withdraw it if she changes her mind. Mind, there’s a kink for… Read more »
They didn’t think so on this discussion board, as Daran found out when he recounted some delightful episode of intoxicated copulation that he had apparently pre-negotiated with his consort before she consumed alcohol.
http://amptoons.com/blog/2006/11/26/searching-for-proof-of-resistance-to-rape/
Aaaaaaan your point with that? That someone disagreed with me? Yeah, of course, because as I SAID that specific instance is a very delicate and complex one. But most of the time we are not talking about the very specific example of pre-negotiated sex with someone who is passed out.
Most of the time…and in Jamie’s article…we’re talking about people who are either completely sober or people who are intoxicated (without having ever had a conversation about consent while sober).
Aaaaaaan your point with that? That someone disagreed with me? Exactly? Whose determinations and rulings are authoritative in these putative consent scenarios? If some “consent’ advocates say some situation is rape and other “consent” advocates say it is not, that is not a minor quibble. This is the risk of committing sexual assault. Most of the time…and in Jamie’s article…we’re talking about people who are either completely sober or people who are intoxicated (without having ever had a conversation about consent while sober). And how many rapes or non-rapes can occur within those marginal cases that fall outside of your… Read more »
You want strict, hard and fast rules, apparently. So for me to say, THIS act is always sexual assault…THIS act is never sexual assault…if you just follow THESE STEPS you will never be accused of sexual assault. But that’s like the relationship advice lists which give you simple rules you’re meant to follow on dates…they don’t actually work because people are individuals with all sorts of individual differences in desire. In the simplest terms, sexual assault and rape occurs when one person does something sexual in nature to the other person’s body that the other person doesn’t want. (I’m not… Read more »
You want strict, hard and fast rules, apparently. Um, well, aren’t hard and fast rules necessary and appropriate for something as grave and egregious as sexual assault? We are usually told that sexual assault is a clear cut thing, that consent should not be a difficult concept to understand, and that notions like “gray rape” are a pernicious canard. If these admonitions are true, the rules and understandings about sexual assault should be strict, hard, and fast. But, okay so…how do you know what sort of sexual contact the other person wants? You ASK. The end. That’s it. No, it… Read more »
Women are individuals. I seriously think that perhaps an inability to fully internalise this is part of the problem. Individual women are individual people and so you have to ASK and then LISTEN to each individual woman you want to have sex with. You know, that whole thing called communication…active listening…etc. You cannot list hard and fast rules for all sexual encounters because you are not having all your sexual encounters with the exact same person every single time…and even if you are, people can change…because people are individuals…so thus you ASK and LISTEN. (Yeah I added the listening part… Read more »
Women are individuals. I seriously think that perhaps an inability to fully internalise this is part of the problem. Is that supposed to be some kind of insinuation or accusation? A person can internalize the fact that other persons are individuals with their own subjectivities, interests, rights, etc. That does not therefore mean one can accurately discern and determine all those things about other persons and selves. You keep saying that “women are individuals.” Yes, they are. And some individuals of any gender sometimes do active things like lie, deceive, mislead, conceal, obfuscate, etc., so that their true interests and… Read more »
@Joanna Schroeder: YES we want to be asked. Say, “I’ve been thinking about kissing you, in fact it’s sort of been driving me crazy. Would it be okay if I did?” and if she’s into you, she’s gonna be into that or some variation. Once you’re engaged in making out, you can do something like touch the bottom of her shirt, smile and say “May I?” and wait for a “yes” or probably, at that point, a “YES! Please!” I have a question on this: If I get to the point of making out, and touch the bottom of her… Read more »
Hi Dan
Another actual woman here.
Yes I want to be asked, and it does not make a man weak.
Maybe it is the other way around , that weak men are the once that refuse to ask?
“Maybe it is the other way around , that weak men are the once that refuse to ask?”
Bingo! It’s the insecure and weak ones who are so worried about a woman actually saying no who refuse to ask.
Bingo! It’s the insecure and weak ones who are so worried about a woman actually saying no who refuse to ask. Probably some, but not all. Some people are sincerely and authentically arrogant enough to believe that they do not have to ask because they cannot fathom that anybody would want to refuse them (in many matters, not just lecherous ones). There is this whole trend of saying that assertive and imposing behavior must really indicate weakness and that deferential behavior must really indicate strength. For example, the notion that bullies are insecure and weak people on the inside. I… Read more »
Have you actually talked to women about whether they want a guy to ask permission before going for a first kiss or removing any clothing? I think you’ll find most women find that behavior weak and to be a real turn-off. And “tell me what you want” is asking a woman to LEAD the sexual interaction. Do you really think women want the role of leading in these things? I think the problem is there is enough of a split that you may not be able to say that how “most women” feel about asking. While its easy to just… Read more »
I certainly wouldn’t call it “weak” but it’s not something we’ve prepared anyone for.
I’m glad we have all these real women here saying how much they want the guy to ask. I really wish those real women had been around when I was in college and literally got laughed at by several women when I asked. I really wish those real women had been those girls’ friends instead of the ones that gossiped and made fun of the fact that I had asked. I get that there is more than one way to ask and that there are witty ways to ask, but when you’re a teenager or college-aged kid just starting to… Read more »
Exactly this. In my short and painful foray into the sexual world I’ve only encountered women who have ridiculed me for asking. There are women who are raised in the same environment as the frat boy who penned this disgusting email. They too grow up with the same expectations of male behavior and mock anyone who deviates for such behavior. Think”Jersey Shore” or “Party Down South “.
Hey Jamie! I saw/met you for the first time at a HOBY seminar a few years ago–anyways, as always, powerful and insightful words from you. I go to Syracuse University, a classic “party school” where the number one problem I have seen is young men who, when faced with the combination of poor self confidence and our “get laid quick” generation find themselves transforming into something they’re not. You’re so right–just playing it cool and showing that you have a genuine interest in me an getting to know me is a much more surefire way to get into my pants… Read more »
Where do these kind of messages come from? The messages that lead to letters like this? Which we know isn’t unique to simply this faternity. I remember being in 7th grade and the popular boys running around trying to unhook the girls’ bras. The girls never said anything because they didn’t want to be seen as “uncool”. And I am sure the boys ran under some of the same pressure. But as I got older, I was always curious where that attitude came from. And who came up with that idea to run around and snap our bras. These were… Read more »
they probably learned it at home, like most people do
This is great advice. But not for college-aged men.
because college aged men require rubbing their boners on things?
Benefit of the doubt for Raegus here, maybe that means that this sort of education needs to start even earlier – middle school and high school.
And I agree.
From a female who appreciates men like you, I think I speak for pretty much all women when I say THANK YOU for writing this. This is the only time in recent memory that this silly trend of “open letters” is actually merited, because this rapey douchebag poor excuse for a human needs to be outed and shamed. This should be required reading for every single college-aged guy.
Like just about everyone else who’s ever handed out dating ‘advice’, you assume that your listeners are encountering a constant stream of potential partners. Not everyone lives there.
I’m not assuming that at all. I am simply saying that no matter how many “potential partners” a person comes across, getting people drunk and running your hands all over their body without consent in hopes of “getting laid” is unacceptable.
But Jamie, it’s not a secret what goes on at these parties, and the girls can see what goes on out on the dance floor before joining in. They have plenty of other social opportunities on campus and off. Yet they choose to keep going back to those parties to hang out with those guys. I see it happen. I overhear them talking on campus. They make an informed decision to participate, and it sounds like even the kid who wrote the email would respect their decision to opt out.
So in what possible way is it “without consent?”
so going to a frat party means a woman gives up her rights to not be treated like meat?
Bingo. Why is it the girls’ responsibility to avoid these parties altogether rather than the boys’ responsibility to behave in a decent manner?
This is simply rape-apologism. Next step is “don’t drink alcohol, ladies, ever!” and after that, “Don’t leave the house without a trusted male with you, ladies, or you may get raped!” and after that we’ve got situations where a woman is raped and actually receives 100 lashes for being out of the house without a male relative. That actually JUST happened. Not in the US, but it’s all a slippery slope.
It’s the rapist’s job not to rape. It is NEVER the other way around.
That’s not fair, Joanna. What if I extrapolated your argument to say that pedestrians shouldn’t have to look both ways before crossing the street, because it’s motorists’ duty by law to yield to them? I’d find myself a grave man, post haste.
It is the motorists’ duty by law to yield to pedestrians, even if they aren’t looking.
I prefer to look at both sides before crossing the street. And actually, you are supposed to look before crossing. Dont be a fool into believing that a driver can brake or avoid you. Sometimes it isnt enough time.
I agree 100% Joanna, but I like to add the advice to avoid meeting or going to a party with sinister people (follow your gut feeling) be their men or women. Preventing is always better than curing.
There’s a combination of things that have to happen – people need to be smart and make smart choices because there are predators out there (and bad drivers) who are going to hurt them no matter what we teach them. However, if someone makes a choice to drink, wear a crop top, go out without their brother with them, it is NEVER their fault if they are raped. Teaching people NOT to rape is crucial to preventing and ending rape. Equally important is teaching people not to allow rapists to get away with rape (criminal justice system, colleges, high schools,… Read more »
Do you know how many car accidents there are every year? How many serious injuries and fatalities result from those accidents? Do you still drive?
Mind, that’s a poor analogy for a multitude of reasons…but the point stands that simply saying “they know the risk,” doesn’t mean they consent to whatever happens to them. You know the risk of getting into a car, but I bet you still do it…and not because you’re consenting to the possibility of getting into a fatal car accident.
Oh, for Pete’s sake, what about this analogy: The guy walking down the tracks didn’t consent to get flattened by a train, either. But everybody’s gonna blame him for walking on the tracks. Or a better analogy: If I get dressed up all spiffy and go wandering around Englewood late at night and flashing stacks of cash, that’s my right, and nobody’s got a right to accost me. To assault me and/or take my money would be criminal, and we should hold criminals to account and punish ’em. But I’m not gonna get any sympathy from anybody, because if I… Read more »
And here is where analogies with cars and cash break down… You have a shit ton more control over what you do with your body (i.e. whether you rape or don’t rape someone) than you do a huge hunk of metal that is separate from your body (i.e. a car). And flashing cash or expensive stuff is ENTIRELY different to simply existing in my own damn body. My body is not property. Cash is property. Cash and cars and a nice watch and all that are external to my self…they are separate from me and taking them from me is… Read more »
Ooh, I’m not so sure about the man walking on the tracks analogy. Is the woman going to a party the same as a man walking on RR tracks? That means the rapist isthe train? so, he’s just on a one-track, unstoppable journey, at the mercy of the physics of inertia, doing what he is supposed to do and all of society wants him to do, like a train on a track. Ick.
Johnathan, I feel like you answer your own question by suggesting that a college-aged woman going to a college party would be indicative of an “astounding lack of sense” on her part, on par with walking down the railroad tracks while a train approaches head-on. The original email implied that, if a woman doesn’t want to have sex with you, just keep plying her with booze and “escalating” until she either changes her mind or winds up too intoxicated to know what her mind wants. Drinking leads to drunkenness. Drinking leads to hangovers. Drinking should not necessarily lead to sex… Read more »
So if a female college student goes to a frat house, it’s like visiting wild animals in the zoo and consenting to being put in the same cage? Frat brothers are expected to behave like wild animals?
Thank you for this thoughtful, compassionate response. Also, you rightly acknowledge that this guy’s twisted and ugly ideas about sexuality didn’t come out of nowhere but are learned from his culture. I hope the young man who wrote the letter (and everyone who read it) stops to take your words of wisdom to heart.
Yes Jamie
A warm hug from me.
Sometimes all it takes is these romantic ,respectful words:
” will you let me make love to you tonight ?”
I, for one, refuse to ask that question. It supports the awful notion that sex is something that women “let” men do. Sex should be a collaborative effort or, for me, it just ain’t worth it. But it seems a lot of women think that way, which feeds into the attitude at issue here, that men have to go get it.
Hi Jonathan
Why so negative?
It is actually a offer 🙂
You this more complicated than it is Jonathan.
Sorry moderator, typo
You see this as more complicated than it is Jonathan.
No, he is right. Even among modern, independent (and not egotistical) women the notion persists that the way sex should happen is that they lie back and enjoy the pleasure of the man working his ass off to give them an orgasm, without offering any help whatsoever. His own pleasure is what he can snatch in between on his own. For him, sex is characterized by “duty”. It is rather ironic how that state of affairs seems to be the exact opposite of what the popular myth says. But nevertheless, it is how I experienced it with every woman I… Read more »
Oh for goodness sake…in this world which still stigmatises women masturbating, with all sorts of ‘jokes’ about women having to fake an orgasm, and which STILL prioritises vaginal intercourse as the THE sex act…you suggest that we have privileged women’s pleasure during sex? The belief that women are meant to sit back and do nothing during sex has fuck all to do with their pleasure…it’s absolutely all about the belief that sex begins when a man gets an erection, the act involves him thrusting, and then ends once he’s orgasmed. It’s rooted in the belief that women actually don’t enjoy… Read more »
The belief that women are meant to sit back and do nothing during sex has fuck all to do with their pleasure…it’s absolutely all about the belief that sex begins when a man gets an erection, the act involves him thrusting, and then ends once he’s orgasmed. It’s rooted in the belief that women actually don’t enjoy sex, but rather it’s something they put up with. Not quite. I’m not saying that messages you talk about here don’t happen but at the same there actually is an element of “if you don’t rock her world, you failed” going on as… Read more »
There is A LOT of the “if you don’t rock her world you failed” going on. I’ve seen guys competing over how many times they can get a girl to go in a single night and how long they can last. You don’t want to be the guy who blows his load in the first 30 seconds, can’t seem to get up, or can’t make his girl’s toes curl. You can’t please your woman? You’re less of a man and you better watch out because soon some other guy will. I’ve seen what you’re talking about too Heather, that mentality… Read more »
And yet you’ll notice, Danny, that even when talking about the aspects of mainstream conceptions of sex which do seem to focus on women’s pleasure….it’s still about what that woman’s pleasure SAYS ABOUT THE MAN. Thus women faking orgasms…specifically thus women faking orgasms during vaginal penetration (with a penis). We don’t give a shit about whether women actually orgasm…we care about whether the man thinks he made the woman orgasm.
I agree that as a society we don’t do a good job of teaching women how to take ownership of their own sexual pleasure and how to be involved in a good sexual experience. We should. That said, if we didn’t care about the woman’s pleasure why would she feel need to fake it in the first place? If the woman’s pleasure doesn’t matter then why pretend? Why is it that treating erectile dysfunction is a multi-billion dollar business? Because there is a narrative, a strong one, that a man’s worth is directly tied up with whether or not he… Read more »
“That said, if we didn’t care about the woman’s pleasure why would she feel need to fake it in the first place?” I think you are missing my point. This hypothetical woman fakes it because her pleasure matters ONLY so far as it either affirms (or denies) her partner’s masculinity. A woman’s pleasure does not matter in of itself. If her pleasure was the top priority in a sexual encounter, she’d never fake it because sex wouldn’t be finished/complete/done properly unless she authentically felt pleasure. But her pleasure isn’t top priority…a man’s belief that he is causing her to feel… Read more »
One thing I have been learning in the last years is that there are different sorts of mentalities and cultures existing at the same time. Among rapey frat brothers and their ilk your description (which I had termed “the popular myth” will be most likely appropriate — I am SO glad I grew up in an enligthened part of Europe and never had to be exposed to that rotten, toxic U.S. college culture. So in that part of the population female pleasure is certainly not privileged. You are right about that. But neither is male pleasure, when you look closely.… Read more »
Actually I remember the 60s as being pretty mutually consensual, pretty democratic, and mutually empowering for both sexes. (Yes I know about all the myths that they weren’t feminist enough – but what I saw leadership from both sexes, at least in California.) They weren’t especially “fratty” either. I think a “discourse” of victimization has replaced that. I do think those things had to come out as well as sexual liberation, but the victimization discourse is or should be the minor moment, the sexual liberation the major moment.
Hi theorema This is your personal experience sexually with women: ✺”Even among modern, independent (and not egotistical) women the notion persists that the way sex should happen is that they lie back and enjoy the pleasure of the man working his ass off to give them an orgasm, without offering any help whatsoever. His own pleasure is what he can snatch in between on his own. For him, sex is characterized by “duty”. It is rather ironic how that state of affairs seems to be the exact opposite of what the popular myth says. But nevertheless, it is how I… Read more »
Well, I will not give a lot of details out of respect for the persons involved (one of which is my current girlfriend and probably future wife). All three of them are from middle resp. eastern Europe, in their mid 20s, from a solid middle-class, secular Christian background with university education. My background is the same. Two of them did not have any sexual experience before me, and the third’s experiences were mostly bad. All in all it looks like my “sample” of women seems to be a statistical outlier. Part of the strangeness certainly stems from my own neurotic… Read more »
The moral of the story? It’s never good to widely share your misogynistic sensibilities, but it is always okay to be one in private…(fraternity) women always swoon over that stuff…
Masculinity in chaos and oblivious to what counts for etiquette…
http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2013/10/georgia-tech-frat-brother-sends-mass-email-score-rape-bait/
1. Ask her a bit about herself He did: If not, choose one of the following: where are you living, where are you from, have you been here before, how are classes going, or where all have you been tonight. 2. Ask your newfound friend if they’d like to come with you to go get a drink. He did: First, introduce yourself and get their name, ask if they are having a good time, and then ask if they want anything to drink. If they say yes, walk them to the bar and tell them what we have to drink.… Read more »
Brushing the hair over an ear can also mean she has a tickle, it does not mean she is asking for anything
You’re kind of missing a couple of things here. First, the critical difference between the two rulesets is that the original is pretty explicitly and exclusively about getting sex, whereas Jamie’s is about actually getting to know a person and forming an attachment to them that doesn’t necessarily have to do with sex, since that’s generally a less shitty way to approach human relations. (I mean, if you really, really want sex and nothing else, okay, but a) you’re missing out on a lot, b) you should be prepared to meet a lot of people who want more than that… Read more »
Seth, you’re missing a couple of things too. The differences you’re pointing out between the E’s and the A’s aren’t the difference between rape and consexual sex. Just because you’re trying to get laid doesn’t make you a rapist, and that’s actually a really terrible conflation to make. People absolutely have the right to pursue strings-free sex, in fact both men and women do it all the time, because this is a free society and people have the right to say no. If you ignore another person’s freedom to choose (which the original letter never advises), THEN it becomes a… Read more »
As a woman who has been raped, I’ll have you know that persistence is NOT sexy and it is rapey of you to assume that most women like it when their “I’m not into this” is disrespected. Consent is enthusiastic, if a woman is not into something, persisting and/or convincing her lead to RAPE.
Finally, if you only want a one-night stand and she wants something more, “respecting what she wants” in that case constitutes politely informing her that you can’t give her what she wants, and then not taking what you want from her anyway. All well and good. But at what point in the interaction should the male person have to issue this warning and disclaimer? When copulation appears to be imminent? At the first act of physical contact? At the very first encounter between the persons? I imagine that some female persons do not want to waste time interacting with a… Read more »
Seriously, folks, do you all just not talk to the the people you’re interested in having sex with or something? It is not nearly as complicated (nor as clinical) as you’re making it sound. Yes, before having sex with someone new I mention “I’m not interested in one night stands,” just to make sure that’s clear. And then if the other person says, “Oh I thought this was going to be a one-nighter,” I then make a decision about whether I’m going to make an exception or not. And then when I say “Naw, sorry not interested,” I expect the… Read more »
Seriously, folks, do you all just not talk to the the people you’re interested in having sex with or something? Did you mean to include another “not” in that question? I would assume people talk to other people for many reasons, sometimes for lecherous reasons, and sometimes for other reasons. Though if people were to give certain sexual disclaimers at the outset of each encounter, I am guessing that some people will end and terminate the encounter at that point because they see no reason or interest in continuing. And so that will be one less person that they talk… Read more »
You know, a lot of what I’m getting from you (and a lot of other people who keep talking about communication and consent as though it’s impossible to negotiate)…is a general theme of: “Sometimes people lie about what they want. Sometimes people manipulate others via communication.” And that’s ridiculous to use an a reason/excuse to either A: not ask at all, or B: not respect whatever the person you are communicating with tells you, or C: Act as though you can never know whether the other person really wants to have sex, so you might as well not bother. Yes,… Read more »
And that’s ridiculous to use an a reason/excuse to either A: not ask at all, or B: not respect whatever the person you are communicating with tells you, or C: Act as though you can never know whether the other person really wants to have sex, so you might as well not bother. I started off by encouraging the use of certain explicit disclaimers when persons encounter each other so as to reduce misunderstandings. But considering the stakes involved and the importance of avoiding sexual assault, I think that particular “reason/excuse” is a rather compelling one. You yourself said that… Read more »
Seriously, the best sex I’ve had is with people whom I’ve had the most conversations about sex with prior to ever hopping into bed with them. And then keep talking about it even once in bed with them. Like, how can anyone think that talking about sexual fantasies and what-not isn’t sexy? It’s essentially real-life sexting.
Wonderful job, Jamie. Very powerful stuff. Thanks for being so damn good at this.