“Just as women rightly want to be valued for more than their looks, we men want to be appreciated for more than our job titles, resumes, or salaries.”
Fact: women are too often judged solely on their appearance, and treated differently based on how they measure up to men’s ideas of what they should look like. This much is obvious, and I’m sure the majority of us here applaud the women who stood up and continue to stand up to this offensive treatment that reduces women to just one aspect of who they are, while ignoring their many other strengths. But—come on, you knew there had to be a “but”—women should acknowledge that they often do the same thing to men—not based on looks as much as on our jobs, careers, and success.
Not to excuse this kind of treatment on the part of men or women, but to a certain extent it is a natural part of our evolutionary programming. Men seek out women who look well-suited to bearing and raising children, and women seek out men with wealth and power to ensure the children will prosper. Of course, we don’t think of it like this: men and women each interpret their mating preferences in terms of attractiveness. In addition, each person desires a unique combination of traits in another person, conscious preferences which may, on occasion, overwhelm our subconscious evolved desires. But those basic desires are always there and can cause problems when we think we’ve evolved socially beyond them—such as when women desire successful men even after they’ve achieved success themselves.
♦◊♦
Want some examples? OK, I’m “happy” to oblige—one woman I was with, very successful by any measure, actively belittled and ridiculed me through most of our relationship because I didn’t make as much money as she did. (We’ll talk of her no longer. Who? That’s right. Moving on now.) Another woman I was with, also very successful, made no secret of her admiration of my accomplishments. Naturally, this was flattering at first, especially since it came after the one with she-who-shall-not-be-discussed. She would even brag to her friends—and exes—about my success and report back to me that they “approved” of me because of it—even the exes.
However, during one of my all-too-frequent periods of doubt concerning my path in life and how my job fit into it, I asked her if her feelings would change if I decided to cut back on work, perhaps to change careers altogether. There was an uncomfortable silence, after which she said, “Let me think about it for a minute.” Nnnnnh, wrong answer, thanks for playing—but it did let me know that she placed far too much value on my career and success and not enough on the characteristics for which I wanted to be valued.
It was as if I told this woman that I wouldn’t love her if she lost her incredible beauty or her wonderful figure. Such a statement would have wrongfully reduced her to just her looks, neglecting all her other positive qualities (including her own success)—just as her statement reduced me to my job title and my publication record. In time, that relationship ended, and only much later did I realize how much pressure she had put on me regarding my job; even though, to be fair, she may have sincerely thought she was being encouraging and supportive.
I would even hazard a guess—actually, a well-considered theory, but I’m not one to brag—that this problem intensifies as a woman becomes more successful. Bear with me, please; in no way do I mean to begrudge women the success in the workplace for which they have fought so hard for decades. Most of the women with whom I have been involved have been successful, intelligent, and confident, and I was more than willing to acknowledge and celebrate this. But that never seemed enough—they also needed me to succeed as well, even to surpass their own success.
To give them the benefit of the doubt, this was likely not a conscious reaction; their unconscious evolutionary programming told them to find a more successful man even though they were successful and independent themselves. Some professional women simply don’t realize the effect this has on the men they’re with, so they don’t know to fight their evolved preference, recently made redundant by their own increasing status in the workplace.
♦◊♦
This may even explain another thing that I’ve heard professional women wonder about: why the men they know and work with, at similar levels of success, are very attracted to “working class women” such as waitresses and baristas. I freely admit, I’m one of them; I’ve had many crushes on women who work in restaurants, coffee shops, grocery stores, you name it. Many professional women I’ve known—including the ex I mention above—seem offended that the men with whom they work would be attracted to “average” women when there were many more accomplished women all around them. They seem to imply that successful women have “earned” a greater claim to men’s attentions than the less successful women have.
This may even explain another thing that I’ve heard professional women wonder about: why the men they know and work with, at similar levels of success, are very attracted to “working class women” such as waitresses and baristas.
|
They suspect—in some cases correctly, I’m sure—that these men are intimidated by strong women who might challenge them, or that they cling to outmoded gender roles by which they have to be the primary if not sole providers. But that misses the greater point—two of them, in fact. First, men don’t really care how successful a woman is; we’re primed to seek out physically attractive women, and although we may consciously seek out other things (such as kindness and intelligence), wealth and power are not high up on the list. So successful women don’t have any extra appeal for us—much less a greater “claim” on our attention—by virtue of their success.
Second, working class women aren’t as concerned with our success as their professional counterparts are, as long as we make decent money and can support them (and any kids that come along). And since they focus less on our careers and success, working class women can be more concerned with who we really are, which can be tremendously gratifying. They’re more interested in our character—will we treat them well, be faithful to them, and help raise their children. Successful jobs help, of course, but as long as a man does well enough, they’re satisfied, and they can turn their attention to more valuable things. And that can be a huge relief, especially to men who face enough career pressure at work, and dream of coming home to a woman who won’t add to it.
♦◊♦
As men, we don’t discount the appeal of professional women out of insecurity or jealousy—believe me, most of us admire women who fought tremendous odds to succeed—but because of how they often see us. Just as women rightly want to be valued for more than their looks, we men want to be appreciated for more than our job titles, resumes, or salaries—and many of us feel that working women are more likely to see us for who we are, not for what we’ve done or how much we make.
Even the most successful man wants a woman to see him as a good man first.
—Photo KellyB./Flickr
I have recently come out of a relationship. I’m a woman on her path to success. I haven’t reached my peak yet but I’m defo in the mix of it and making serious moves. All except one of my exes have NOT been “successful” men. They all pretended that they were ambitious, know where their heading type of men, but their mask fell off eventually. My last ex boyfriend I honestly couldn’t fault much but it was his insecurities about himself as a man, my growing success and drive that eventually made him 2nd guess himself. He for the most… Read more »
I would contest the degree to which we’re primed to seek out physically attractive women. I know, from personal experience, that in my senior year of high school, I had a choice between attempting to date two women- one of which was more conventionally attractive, and the other of which was more compatible to me in personality. I chose the one more compatible with me in personality. I know, also, that of the two girlfriends I’ve had (I’m a young man), I miss this one that was more compatible to me in personality, than the more conventionally attractive one I… Read more »
But you realize that all you’re doing is talking about yourself, right?
Evolutionary psychology isn’t about you in particular, nor is it about your particular experiences. With particularity to human reproduction, evolutionary psychologists makes generalizations about our inclinations as a species- what we want and don’t in order to mate.
Again, it’s not all about you.
Waitresses are PAID to be nice. Try asking one of them out after work hours & see if they say yes. I would guess that you don’t have a chance buddy.. Maybe due to the fact that you don’t make enough money. Lol.. This comes from a former sweet waitress turned business owner. Good luck geek.
The comments on this site coming from females disgust me. They use shaming language to try and censor the author of this piece, How dare someone point out female hypergamy eh? Also the self justification shown by the woman here is laughable. Also one woman basically told him he wasn’t good looking enough to keep his relationships. If a man said such a nasty thing to a woman, there would be rightful outrage, yet due to female entitlement woman feel free to say anything they want. Demonizing male sexuality is an female attempt to control male sexuality, it is prudish… Read more »
Hi Mark – I think this is a very interesting blog. I completely agree that men want to be respected for more than their salaries and titles, but your argument that non-professional women are more likely to do this than professional women is convoluted and obscured by your emotions. Besides your limited number of sour relationships with professional women and a few “women-have-told-me” stories, where is the empirical evidence that professional women are more likely to objectify men? Where is the evidence that non-professional women are less likely to objectify men? Your article is riddled with anecdotal, wishful thinking that… Read more »
When I’m asked “so, what do you do”, I answer with what is of interest to me, my life’s passions and pursuits. I deliberately do not mention my work. You can learn a lot about someone, man or woman, by how they handle the omission of employment and salary as a measure of your self.
I am not my job.
Wow. First of all, I find it interesting that, while you have crushed on “working class” women you never have had an relationship with one. I have to ask, why? And where is all this knowledge about working class women’s values and character coming from, especially if you haven’t been involved with any? Let me tell you 2 stories. 1st…my ex-husband, an attorney, has a buddy who owns a large company. He kept going in this little coffee shop and asking out the gorgeous barista. He was 43, she was 28. She’d laugh and say he was too old for… Read more »
I loved this article because it gave me some new angles to think about. I really don’t think generalizations always apply, though. Love is a big factor, and it’s not always about sizing up someone’s looks or salary. I met my first husband in college, and he did not know what he was going to do for a career then. He eventually became a successful lawyer, while I was a psychologist. He made a lot more than me, and we were well off. But what did that matter when he had a midlife crisis and left me and our daughter… Read more »
This article took away all the hopes I had in men. I always see the evolutionary factor as important (like:”poor guys, is not their fault they look for a hot girl, they came wired like that from the fabric”) but if men think that we professional women often cannot see HOW GOOD MEN YOU ARE we are in tremendous evolutionary problem, because every decade we’ll have more and more women improving their situation and getting careers to provide for their families, even if they are waitress they always look to improve (having a professional husband whom pay her career). So,… Read more »
“Second, working class women aren’t as concerned with our success as their professional counterparts are, as long as we make decent money and can support them (and any kids that come along). And since they focus less on our careers and success, working class women can be more concerned with who we really are, which can be tremendously gratifying. They’re more interested in our character—will we treat them well, be faithful to them, and help raise their children. ” -I think that is mostly a matter of men’s perceptions about women rather than reality. Hypergamy is a very strong social… Read more »
Personally, I’ve never cared about a guy’s income or what his job is. If anything, the word “professional” is actually a turn-off to me. What’s a “professional?” That says nothing about the line of work you’ve pursued and is merely meant to say “It means I pull down a good salary, and we both know that’s all that matters.” Of course, to some women that’s true, but personally I find that repulsive. I’m an independent woman with a “professional” type job, but that’s not how I describe myself or what matters to me. I have the job so that I… Read more »
Im glad someone spoke of the average working class woman, who does not make 6 figures. I was especially elated to hear it from a mans perspective. I am a hospitality contractor(proud of it)Im so tired of hearing about the “professional” woman and all her money and independence. (by the way that independent thing is just a song)I found that womans comment,about a professional man dating someone of a lower professional caliber being questionable to her, very offensive! A woman is a woman, no matter there educational background or financial status. At the end of the day we all want… Read more »
Girrrrrl, look what i stumbled on. 5 years ago, wow!
Professor White, I am loathe to ventriloquize for professional men like yourselves. But my experience of marriage to a self-employed professional woman makes me wonder if white-collar men have a preference for waitresses and baristas, at least in part because relationships with white-collar women end up just being another job in and of itself. Am I wrong? I can only imagine what down-time with women like Maureen Dowd, Amanda Marcotte and Carly Fiorina must be like. I’d insist on being paid before the first anniversary arrived! It took awhile, but I came to see my wife’s request for a divorce—she… Read more »
Maybe instead of bashing men for not fawning over these suspect social climbing women, you might wanna educate your readers on the concept of Hypergamy.
It sounds like the women you pursue are about as loyal as their next pay raise and promotion prospects will allow.
This site is intended on reducing Misogyny…right?
I often explain the evolutionary spin to mating to people. I think the point you made about women wanting a provider is part of it. Another part is the need to feel protected. In our society, wealth affords protection through resources one can wield. Protection from the elements, predators, famine, etc. That partly explains why some successful women love working class men for their machismo. I think beauty, for the man, is part of the answer, too, but what defines beauty is cultural on some level and almost genetic on others. I have been attracted to women that may not… Read more »
I don’t think the issue is evolution (although you have plenty of academic bona fides– I don’t see any natural science degrees in your bio….) or any inherent traits to the “working class” women of the world– it’s the same old patrriarchal BS that made it hard for a lot of middle class women to move up the career ladder in the first place. I also think you may be misunderstanding the concept of objectification as used in feminist theory. Women are objectified by being reduced to their physical bodies, which have historically been bought, sold, traded, commercialized, etc. What… Read more »
The successful women may also be afraid that people will look down them if their significant other is less successful than they are. They may be made to feel by people around them that they have settled because overall society still expects the man in the relationship to be more successful than the woman.
Interesting–thanks! On a related point, they also be worried that their partners’ lack of success could reflect poorly on them if people assume that the men are more successful than the women.
Good point. They probably do.
Thanks for this article, Mark.
It’s something I noticed as well, a striking “double standard” (man, how much I hate them! 😉 that has not been really acknowledged yet.
I’m not sure, however, “this problem intensifies as a woman becomes more successful”. I met several unsuccessful women, whose insecurity made them wanting much more than they could afford (and that was obviously projected on their potential partners). Insecurity is a bitch, and easily creates feelings of “it’s never enough”.
OTOH, there could be a cultural difference between your country and mine (Italy).
I think you should check out the comments on this reposting of the article; http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-guy-talk-how-professional-women-can-objectify-men/
I think waitresses care just as much about your financial success. They’re just poorer and therefore not looking for a guy with as much money. It’s like a short woman being willing to date any guy because they’re all taller than her. I think you’re engaging in a little wishful thinking here. Waitresses are not better, nicer women who love you more for yourself and have sweet characters. They’re women like the rest of us. If they are kind to you, it may be to get a tip. Your professional women friends are probably seeing your interest for what it… Read more »
I still like your article, I just don’t agree with the bit on waitresses being nicer.
Thanks, Black Iris–but I never said they were nicer, are more attractive, or better in general, just that on the average they might have more balanced priorities.
I think you’re right that women sometimes objectify men and look at them in terms of their career/financial success.
I think you’re dead wrong with the idea that waitresses don’t do this. I think you’ve only felt this from professional women because they are the only ones who have enough money/education/status to judge you badly.
Good point–I’ve only been with successful women, and the rest are merely crushes (so far).
Hey Mark – Waitresses are successful too… Just because she isn’t climbing the professional food chain doesn’t mean she isn’t successful!
some men would love to be objectified and are made to feel bad about themselves when they are not.
https://goodmenproject.com/gender-sexuality/men-metrosexuality-disability/#comments
Your first point is dead on, Black Iris–see the exchange above about hypergamy for more on that issue. (I addressed the rest of your poitns in previous exchanges as well.)
The problem I have with this is that beauty is not functional unless the chick was a model and making loads of money off of her beauty, whereas his job serves a functional purpose. When you mention the waitress you talk about how they only care about paying bills, but what about the successful woman who also wants to pay the bills? I guess I just don’t understand why you played out the scenario with the waitress as living with her and possibly wanting kids but you didn’t do the same with the successful woman? Surely in both situations, the… Read more »
I love your article, but I don’t agree with you that this attitude is caused by evolution. I think we exaggerate the difference between men and women in that area. Biologically, women prefer men who look young and healthy. Just look at the male film stars we like. We agree on what looks good. I think the difference is cultural. Despite all the changes, women don’t really want a man who depends on the them financially. Some of it may be a unspoken desire to someday cut back on work when you have kids. Some of it is just old… Read more »
Thanks, Black Iris–I’m sure your theory explains some of it too!
I can appreciate what you are trying to say, and I do empathize with the work/life stresses that men face, especially in the realm of sexuality and relationships, but I think the overall point is muddled into a somewhat sexist analogy. I am a working class woman, I would (like to) consider myself as someone who is intelligent and empathetic (and married) who can have diverse personal relationships… I think enough credit is not given to working class women and I thank you for the nod. Even though I work with some amazing women, I also work with some very… Read more »
The irony is that I think men have felt “pigeonholed” by the criticisms of feminism. It is a very tight line indeed between observing the harmful behavior of a group of people and using that observation as a stereotypical club with which to malign the entire group. I feel strongly that Mark has taken pains to not go down that road, but I think a lot of people here feel different. Nonetheless, I’m glad that Mark has spoken up, at least to indicate that women are capable of being just as shallow and dismissive of a man’s better qualities, as… Read more »
Thank you, Darque–that means a lot.
Absolutely, Darque–there’s always a danger of overgeneralizing and maknig overly simplistic distinctions in pieces like this, but please trust that it wasn’t my intentions. (See my other responses throughout the comments on the class issue.)
To offer an alternative theory: these successful women have often had to be more driven and work even harder to get to the position they are in than the men around them (not to do those men down). It may be at least partly that they are then seeking men who are higher up than them because those men are similar to them in priorities and work ethic. Another alternative would be that both men and women seek partners like their parents, and given the history of women working, that is more likely to be a higher paid man for… Read more »
Good theories all, Livy–thanks!
Wow. I Like that you brought this up Mark. I think it is on men’s minds much more than women’s, though. I think men in this position feel a lot of shame because society tells us we should be the provider so when we are falling down on that it hits directly at our masculinity. I think we then project that on to women and probably most men never even check in with women about it because they do not want to admit to it so they go on believing what they have made up in their mind. Did you… Read more »
Thanks, Dan–believe, I hope you’re right about this being uncommon, and if it is just me, I’d be pleased.
While I didn’t want to make this post about my past relationships–I offered those experiences as examples, not catharsis!–I did talk openly with both women about this, and while this issue was sometimes tied up with others, it was very real to me as well as, it seemed, to them.