Margitte Kristjansson asks: Why am I not allowed to want to be fat?
When I was 21 I studied abroad in Rome for three months as part of my university’s Italian language studies program. Because I was studying Italian language and culture, I was assigned to live with a host family (instead of in campus housing), which in my case meant a cantankerous little old lady named Paola who spoke almost no English…which would have been fine (I was there to learn Italian, after all!), except that Paola thought she was SUPER FANTASTIC at speaking English, which usually meant that all of our conversations ended in her screaming at me (in Italian) that I didn’t understand anything.
But Paola is a story for another time. This is about my fat.
When I first arrived at Termini train station, I met up with the rest of my cohorts and, one-by-one, we were picked up by our families. When Paola laid eyes on me, she smiled big (or was it a grimace? I can hardly remember) and said “Ciao Margitte! Come stai?” (hello, how are you?) and then immediately said about five other things that were well above my Italian 101 knowledge. She helped me cram my (laughably oversized) bags into her teensy car, and we zipped off to her apartment in San Giovanni. After a traumatizing experience with her elevator (it wouldn’t fit the two of us with my luggage), she showed me to my room and I took a nap.
I awoke three hours later to the smell of delicious Italian cooking. Paola excitedly ushered me into her itsy-bitsy kitchen and sat me on a rickety chair in front of my dinner.
Which consisted of three plates of food.
THREE plates of food.
Now I had learned that it was customary in Italy to eat a lot of food at dinner, but Paola herself only had one plate. Not wanting to be rude, I smiled, said “Grazie,” and proceeded to try and eat as much of the food as possible. At a plate and a half in, I just couldn’t eat anymore. “Mi dispiace, ma non ho fame.” My Italian was pretty shaky, but I basically said that I was sorry but I wasn’t hungry.
“Mangia!” (eat!), she insisted. But I couldn’t, and Paola was shocked.
“Ma…come mai sei cosi grassata*?”
“Grassata” was not yet in my vocabulary, so I couldn’t answer. She just kept asking, over and over, “but how come you are so….?”, growing increasingly aggravated with my puzzled looks.
Then came the hand motions. “GRASSATA!!!” She exclaimed, making a curvy shape with her hands while giving herself a double-chin and sucking in air to make her face look bloated. She then grabbed her chunk of her belly. “Grassata!”
I finally realized what she was asking, but went to get my dictionary just in case I was imagining things. Horrified, I found out that I was right—she really had decided that asking me why I was fat was an appropriate topic of conversation (*the actual Italian word for fat is “grassa”… “grassata” literally means “greased” but is often used to describe fat people, from what I understand). I shrugged and said “Non lo so” (I don’t know) and tried to leave it at that.
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When we have to “explain” our non-normativity, there is no room for us to make the powerful statement that we want to be this way.
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Over the next few days, Paola badgered me about why I was so fat, growing more and more frustrated when she realized I didn’t eat a whole lot and that I was fairly active.
One night during that first week, I had a friend (who just so happened to be vacationing in Rome at the time) over for dinner. This time, Paola decided to ask Lauren why I was so fat. Was I lying about my eating habits? Did I really exercise? Lauren and I were, I think, equally horrified at this line of questioning. Then Lauren had the bright idea to take out the dictionary and look for the word “thyroid”.
“Tiroide!” I exclaimed, pointing to it in the dictionary.
Amazingly and suddenly, Paola was satisfied. All was right in the world, because it finally made sense to her WHY my fat body was so fat—because I had a bad thyroid. (In later years I would come to find out that I did not actually have said problem with my thyroid, but that is also another story.)
♦◊♦
I’m not sure how often other fat people are asked by others about the hows and whys of their particular fatness, but I do know how often I’ve felt compelled to explain it to people even when they haven’t asked. Fat hate being as rampant as it is, we fatties often find ourselves in the position of defending ourselves against the stereotype. You know the one—the one that goes “fat people are ‘x’” and here ‘x’ can be anything as long as it’s negative (lazy, stupid, smelly, slow, unkempt, compulsive, weak-willed, gluttonous, unhealthy, etc.); indeed ‘x’ is often all of these things and more. Prior to coming to body acceptance, it is usually a fat person’s only way to be okay with him or herself: “Yes I’m fat but at least I’m not ‘x’.”
Generally, we are vindicated (or at least feel “safer”) if we can “prove” our fatness is the result of something outside of our control (i.e. genetic predisposition toward a certain body type or a certain amount of adipose tissue, or a non-“obesity”-related disease or illness that causes fatness). If we can prove that our fatness is not because of ‘x’, we can at least be “good” in our fatness.
There are many reasons why this type of thinking is poisonous, not only for our own bodies but for the bodies of other fat people, as well. The painful divisiveness of the good fatty/bad fatty dichotomy is discussed very frequently within FA, and not nearly enough in the general public sphere.
Last Spring I was waiting for the bus with a friend from my grad program. We were talking about fat. He (a thin athlete and vegan) came to the conversation with all sorts of assumptions about fat bodies and health; similarly, I came to the conversation with all sorts of assumptions about his assumptions based on my knowledge of his lifestyle choices. That being said, we had an interesting conversation, which ended with me explaining that I often feel pressured to be a “good” fat in order to be taken seriously within an academic context.
“It does lend you a certain credibility,” he admitted.
I didn’t like the implication of this statement, in part because it confirmed my fears and because it even implied that he might not take me seriously if I exhibited stereotypically “fat” behaviors or if I were to become ill with some sort of “obesity”-related disease. If I had type II diabetes, for example, would the importance of my work in fat studies be any less important? Would my claims of discrimination and call for better representations of fat bodies in popular culture be less legitimate if I sat around and ate Cheetos all day?
According to him, it seemed the answer might be yes.
UGH.
How is it okay to say that only “healthy” fat people who exercise and eat “right” deserve to be respected? To see better images of themselves reflected in the media? To have equal access to health care? To sit in a damn seat on an airplane and not have to worry about the arm digging into their sides so much it makes them want to cry (this is of course from personal experience) or that they’ll be asked to leave the plane or buy an extra seat for “safety” precautions (the experience of Kevin Smith and many others)? The answer is that it’s not.
So I implore you—you, me, fat people everywhere (and especially those beautiful girls posting over at FYCB—to resist the urge to “explain” your fatness. Not only because these questions further divide us, but because they are, in and of themselves, incredibly problematic, embedded in a notion that we somehow can (and should) rid the world of fat bodies.
Every time you feel compelled to explain your fatness, you are participating (whether consciously or not) in a socially-sanctioned conversation about your fat body that is ultimately about “obesity” researchers’ bottom line: eradicating fatness.
I know that seems a bit harsh, but stay with me for a moment while I appeal to work by Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick (herself a fat woman) about a different oppressed group: the gay community.
In “Axiomatic,” Sedgwick argues that conversations about the “origins” of gayness—essentially the nature vs. nurture debate—are very problematic because the desire to know how or why people are gay is really about the desire to “cure” gayness. If, for example, people are gay because they “choose” to be, the cure is super simple: just decide not to be gay. Gay-hatin’ straights can do their part to encourage this by making the world a super inhospitable place for people who choose to be gay (yay discrimination and hate crimes. Not.). If we decide that gayness is “caused” by certain childhood experiences or certain child-rearing practices, we can just work to ensure those environmental factors (“nurture”) don’t happen. If most gay people are themselves correct, and they are actually born this way, then by golly the “cure” is a lot harder but researchers sure are working their asses off trying to find the “gay gene”. Can you imagine what might happen when and if they find this rainbow-magic gene? Can you guess? Because I bet it ends with preventing gay children from being born.
A similar line of thinking happens in conversations about the origins of fatness. If we are fat because of our own behavior, just change the behavior (so says the multi-billion-dollar diet & exercise industry). Choose to be thin. If we are fat because of some other environmental experiences (childhood trauma, “bad” parenting, school lunches and vending machines, bullying, etc. and so on), then stop those things from happening. If it’s genetic, spend billions and billons of dollars to find the fat gene, or some sort of drug that will alter our biology in order to make us thin. In the end, it really is all about making fat people thin people… which is really just about getting rid of fat people. End of story. Can you imagine what happens if they find “the fat gene” (as if there is only one)? Because I bet it ends with preventing fat children from being born.
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If I had type II diabetes, for example, would the importance of my work in fat studies be any less important? Would my claims of discrimination and call for better representations of fat bodies in popular culture be less legitimate if I sat around and ate Cheetos all day?
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Every time you feel the need to explain your fatness, you buy into this system.
But it’s so damn hard not to. I get that. Part of the reason is because, within the genetic argument, non-normative bodies are begrudgingly granted basic human rights provided that they are the way they are because they can’t “help” it. If it’s not our fault, then others have to at least tolerate our existence. Indeed, this is sometimes the only way for oppressed groups to be included in laws that protect them from discrimination.
Implicit in this is the assumption, first of all, that if we could, we would naturally choose to be “normal” (aka thin, or straight, or white, or whatever). When we have to “explain” our non-normativity, there is no room for us to make the powerful statement that we want to be this way.
Why am I not allowed to want to be fat?
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Someone once asked me what I would say if given the chance to tell the whole world just one thing I wanted them to know about fatness. At the time, I said that I wished that everyone knew that fat does NOT equal “unhealthy”. While I still think this is incredibly important for people to know, in part because it has the potential to radically alter not only the medical community or the diet & exercise industry, but also the individual lives of people who have body fat (so… everyone), I don’t know that this is what I would say now if given the chance.
What I’m doing with my activism, and what I’m accomplishing in my grad work, cannot just be a fight to be seen as “healthy” or “good” or “genetically predisposed”. It has to be a fight for all fat people, regardless of how or why they are fat, to be seen as people, period. A fight for fatties to be acknowledged as having a multiplicity of identities, medical histories, eating habits, behaviors, childhoods, personal tastes and preferences, and life experiences. A fight to obliterate any notion of the fat experience as any one particular thing, to end the need to justify our existence or prove that we are not “stereotypically fat”. Rather than dividing us into groups of “good” or “bad”, “healthy” or “unhealthy”, “genetically fat” or “behaviorally fat”, we need to be understood as people who are just fat, end of discussion.
There are so many people who can be on board with FA or other fat-positive principles, provided the fat person in question is healthy, or “tries not to be fat,” or is conventionally attractive (and thus curvy or voluptuous or even “chubby not fat”). Fuck that.
I’m done with trying to please these people. And you should be, too.
For more information on divisive identity politics, eliminating “health” from the discussion of fatness, and other things I’ve talked about here, check out these fantastic blog posts:
Tasha Fierce’s “Fat As I Wanna Be”, Snarky’s Machine’s “You Are My Sisters”, The Rotund’s “Second Verse, Same as the First; Fat Acceptance is for Everyone” and Fatshionista’s “Q&A: On dressing femme, being a ‘bad fat’, and changing the FA blogosphere”
Photo–Flickr/goincase
This post originally appeared at Riots Not Diets.
About Margitte Kristjansson
Thank you. I just had a similar argument with someone today. In general. As with queer people there seems to be this feeling that if something is a “choice” that makes it okay to be rude and discriminatory.
I once saw a thin guy lecture a complete stranger about exercise. I wish I had had the courage to tell him to mind his own business.
Fat hate is pretty extreme in Australia too. 99% of my bullying was because I was overweight from a young age, copping all this abuse just because I was fat, abuse which later would spiral into depression and a severe social anxiety disorder. And for what? Being overweight? Why some people care so much about other people’s bodies?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CDC_Overweight_and_Obesity_map3.gif
It is my understanding that the national obesity trend is largely due to the corn subsidies and the consequent effects on the national diet due to unavoidable economic reasons, not due to individuals. The national agriculture policy should work to change this situation, supply side, for the betterment of the health of the people.
I believe that this can be accomplished hand-in-hand with FA, since several of the health issues are due to social stigma, and that it plain don’t make much sense or fairness to take macro scale things (eg race/crime statistics) and apply them to micro situations (eg treating people like criminals purely because of their race).
This is huge actually. I am a fan of Michael Pollen (http://michaelpollan.com/books/in-defense-of-food/) for his radical approach to eating like our great grandparents did. Cut out the foods that are in all cases fake (cheetos?, food vitamin enriched substitutes) and eat real things. Don’t fuck with how food is grown by taking cattle and giving them corn (which makes them sick and makes them need antibiotics and changes their basic cholesterol levels), eat far less meat but let it be raised as it was evolved to be.
It’s disgusting how what we’ve done in the last 100 years and obesity is actually the least of our issues from it. It’s not sustainable, it’s not going to fit into our biology as we’ve evolved, and it makes us all less healthy even as we eat and eat ourselves to deal.
Plus, the taste of an organic farm raised tomato or carrot from the CSA is like food on ECSTASY compared to storebought.
We have stripped reason and pleasure out of our food, in our (albeit at this point) pragmatic desire to feed our masses and make money on crap food products.
All I know is, I’ve eliminated about 50% of the carbs out of my diet (mostly wheat), increased raw foods by double, and veggie proteins (though I do still purchase organic free range meat) and feel better and brighter than I have in years. Have no idea if I’ve lost weight or not, but the physical “feeling” difference is amazing.
Did the same thing, Julie…and I have actually gained weight…turns out eating actual meals combined with a pretty sedentary lifestyle adds weight. You know what though, I still feel a shit ton better than I used to when I was eating over-processed food and more gluten than was good for me.
I usually hate tomatoes for being bitter, but I had one once that was sweet. Apparently that is how tomatoes are meant to be naturally…I might have to grow some!
Great post Margitte! It is so hard to shake off the need to be a “good fattie”–especially as a plus-sized fitness instructor. I exercise because I like it and it makes me feel better, but it doesn’t make me a better person than somebody who doesn’t exercise. I try to offer what I teach as an option that some people will find super fun but not an obligation. But it’s hard not to sound like I’m preaching and sometimes, frankly, I fail. But thank you so much for your insights and for the reminder!
In some cultures, perhaps in Italian culture, saying someone is fat is not such an emotionally charged or even impolite thing to say so much as a descriptive statement. Wondering out loud how someone’s weight seems out of proportion to their apparent eating habits is not necessarily a criticism or an attack, but it makes sense that it could sound like that. To your Italian hosts, it may have been no different than wondering how a woman can be so skinny when she eats such big meals.
In China, for example, if you’ve put on weight since the last time someone saw you, this is often the first thing someone points out to you when seeing you again. It seems to be intended just as an observation, like you would say to a child how much the child has grown. I think many Chinese people would find it odd that Westerners would get offended at the statement, especially if they’re from the countryside, where putting on weight is a damn good sign that life is good to you.
I think the “no fat chicks” thing is far from a universal sentiment, even within “Western” cultures.
I think this is a very good point…though it doesn’t make her reaction to it any less valid (and I’m not saying that you were saying that it did). Plus, though her one example may have been a bit of cultural misunderstanding, the rest of her article is spot on.
This is the best thing I’ve read on this website by far. Excellent work.
Right on Margitte. On a popular dating board website I visit, there are always posts from some men that actually have bitterness and anger toward over weight women. I can understand not be attracted to a body type. I don’t understand simply having bitterness or anger though to people that don’t have what you personally perceive to be the ideal body type.
I copped the same from men and women, and saw a lot of comments basically suggesting the overweight people cost them a lot of tax money to fix up their health even though afaik overweight people die earlier, and use less tax money since most is used in old age. (Australia btw)
Because many see it ONLY as caused by the person themselves they liken it to drug abuse and have little sympathy compared to a disability like being a paraplegic. Although logically there are some paraplegics that did silly stuff to cause it, diving headfirst intounknown water and hitting a rock, or doing stupid stuff on a motorbike in an area with a lot of tree’s for instance. I’ve always wondered if those same shamers would go annoy the person in the wheelchair because they dove in headfirst and hit their head on a rock underwater?
I forget who the comedian was who said it, but I remember a comic who was overweight, a pack-a-day smoker, and a heavy drinker who said something like: “When I get sick, don’t worry about paying for years of hospital bills. People like me don’t linger.”
I’ve heard these things before, and I personally take issue with “fat acceptance” for two reasons.
First, for reasons I do not understand, many members of the fat acceptance movement seem to hate me. I was a student at City College of San Francisco before transferring to a 4-year school, and during my time there I attended a couple of events where Linda Bacon would speak about Fat Acceptance. At every single event someone (and in fairness it was usually an audience comment rather than an academic) would attempt to demonize “thin men” as the source of all of society’s problems.
Even if you wanted to demonize thin people, why were men singled out every time?
Furthermore, my family has a long history of heart disease, so I have little choice but to be proactive about prevention or else face heart disease myself. This means I exercise vigorously six days a week and I’m very careful about what I eat. As a result, I am a thin man. How am I supposed to feel when I hear myself being demonized because of steps that I am reasonably taking to prevent the plight I watched my grandmother suffer through?
If the FA movement wanted an ally, they screwed up.
Second, even if the FA movement wasn’t problematic, the comparison to the LGBT community is preposterous. Homosexuality does not drive up my medicare costs.
Now, are there “healthy” fat people? Sure. Are fat people in America on average “healthy”? No, not by a long shot.
When the author writes:
“There are so many people who can be on board with FA or other fat-positive principles, provided the fat person in question is healthy….F*** That.”
It’s pretty clear that the author is not actually concerned with an ongoing public health crisis in America which affects all of us through insurance premiums, medicare, and medicaid. It’s one thing to argue that we should not stigmatize fat. It’s another to argue that being unhealthy has no societal costs at all.
Hi Mike,
I’m not sure who you are, as I am not from San Francisco and have never met you. That said, you seem to take issue with me and my post for a few reasons. Your first reason, that someone in fat acceptance was mean to you once, is absolutely unrelated to anything I have written here. Your second reason, that I am demonizing thin people (men, specifically) is also unreasonable: none of that was happening here. I believe in bodily autonomy and I have many friends across the size and gender spectrum, all of whom I value very much. I do not think that people who are thin, “naturally” or otherwise, deserve hate just because of their body size. Body acceptance is for every body.
It sounds like you are doing a lot of things to stave off illness, such as daily exercise and a mindful diet. Good for you! That is your choice and it sounds like you are very happy with yourself and your body. That is great.
Do I give two shits about your health? No. Why? Because it’s none of my business.
The “costs” of “obesity” are, in my well-researched opinion, extremely exaggerated. And I have yet to see a single anti-fat study where certain very important factors are taken into account about the costs of fat *stigma* (see this great post by Ragen Chastain for more info: http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/2012/06/11/the-crushing-cost-of-fat-stigma/). Another thing I think a lot of anti-fat people don’t understand is that most fat people CAN’T EVEN GET HEALTH INSURANCE because private insurance refuses to cover them based on BMI alone. So yeah, that means that a LOT of people who could have been cared for throughout their lives with important preventative medicine end up as senior citizens on medicare with a LOT of medical bills–because they had no access to a doctor until then. Please rethink your myopic views on healthcare if you’re going to continue with that line of reasoning to excuse your dislike of fat folks.
And one more thing: you say that people seem to dislike based on the fact that you are thin male alone. Are you sure it’s not because you’re a jerk?
On second thought, I feel pretty shitty about calling you a jerk. Here is my sincere question, modified: are you sure you have been unwelcome in activist circles because you are a thin man, and not because you seem to make a lot of assumptions about fatness and seem unable to approach fat activist talking points with an open mind?
Oh I see…you feel bad about calling me a jerk, so you’d rather call me “closed minded.”
Did it honestly not occur to you that I was at a FA meeting in the first place because I support the general idea?
“Are you sure it’s not because you’re a jerk?”
Way to go with the personal attacks there. I guess that’s what you’re all about, huh?
“Your first reason, that someone in fat acceptance was mean to you once, is absolutely unrelated to anything I have written here.”
You are purposefully mischaracterizing a systemic problem with the Fat Acceptance movement. The rejection of thin people by the movement is regularly debated as problematic. This is clear from even a cursory google search. Here’s a pretty good place to start:
http://unapologeticallyfat.blogspot.com/2012/02/on-thinness-and-fat-acceptance-part-1.html
Next time try actually responding to what I have written instead of what you wish I had written.
“And I have yet to see a single anti-fat study where certain very important factors are taken into account about the costs of fat *stigma* ”
Great, why don’t you do one?
Until then I’ll stick with hard evidence about the costs of insurance, medicare, and medicaid, all which I end up paying for with each and every paycheck.
“Please rethink your myopic views on healthcare if you’re going to continue with that line of reasoning to excuse your dislike of fat folks.”
I like how you decided that I “dislike fat folks.” What I dislike is an attitude that says “I’m going to be unhealthy and cost you a lot of money and then not care about it and oh by the way blame other people.” I dislike this attitude in plenty of thin people, and I really like plenty of fat people who don’t have this attitude.
Active, athletic people often suffer serious injuries. Why should the rest of society pay for a triathlete’s knee replacement?
“Why should the rest of society pay for a triathlete’s knee replacement?”
Last I checked, they don’t. Most serious “triathletes” pay for their own healthcare.
Furthermore, knee replacement can be preventative if it allows someone to stay active and prevent overall health decline.
Until then I’ll stick with hard evidence about the costs of insurance, medicare, and medicaid, all which I end up paying for with each and every paycheck.
Okay, let’s look at the evidence.
According to a recent Forbes article, neither does obesity:
Alcohol, Obesity and Smoking Do Not Cost Health Care Systems Money
“Now there is no doubt at all that these unhealthy behaviours do have costs, that’s not at issue. The major cost is of course to the imbiber, smoker or lardbucket in the form of a shorter lifespan.”
“But what about these costs to the health care systems? Well, the clue is in that shortened lifespan. Yes, certainly, there are costs to treating the diseases brought on by too much booze, tobacco or food. But there are costs to treating all diseases, all modes and methods by which we might possibly reach that undoubted destination, the grave.
The question is, are the costs of treating the illnesses and deaths brought on by those three indulgences higher or lower than the costs of treating those who live healthily but still inevitably die?”
Click through for the data and you will find that healthy people are more expensive in terms of medical care over their lifetimes than either obese people or smokers because they live longer.
The peer-reviewed study referenced in the Forbes article may be viewed directly here:
Lifetime Medical Costs of Obesity: Prevention No Cure for Increasing Health Expenditure
“Despite the higher annual costs of the obese and smoking cohorts, the healthy-living cohort incurs highest lifetime costs, due to its higher life expectancy, as shown in Table 1. Furthermore, the greatest differences in health-care costs are not caused by smoking- and obesity-related diseases, but by the other, unrelated, diseases that occur as life-years are gained (Table 1). Therefore, successful prevention of obesity and smoking would result in lower health-care costs in the short run (assuming no costs of prevention), but in the long run they would result in higher costs.”
“In this study we have shown that, although obese people induce high medical costs during their lives, their lifetime health-care costs are lower than those of healthy-living people but higher than those of smokers. Obesity increases the risk of diseases such as diabetes and coronary heart disease, thereby increasing health-care utilization but decreasing life expectancy. Successful prevention of obesity, in turn, increases life expectancy. Unfortunately, these life-years gained are not lived in full health and come at a price: people suffer from other diseases, which increases health-care costs. Obesity prevention, just like smoking prevention, will not stem the tide of increasing health-care expenditures. The underlying mechanism is that there is a substitution of inexpensive, lethal diseases toward less lethal, and therefore more costly, diseases [9].”
Another myth down the toilet…
Another study, this from the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College, as reported in US News:
The Best Life
Good Health Raises Lifetime Care Costs
“Here are the CRR projections of remaining lifetime health care costs, in 2009 dollars, of couples who reached the indicated ages last year:
Age Healthy Unhealthy
65 $260,000 $220,000
70 $266,000 $241,000
75 $265,000 $236,000
80 $259,000 $220,000
85 $244,000 $202,000
Looking at current health care costs, it turns out that healthier people actually do face lower annual bills than unhealthy people. But as you extend this side-by-side look into the future, the healthy people keep incurring expenses every year. And the unhealthy people? Well, they’re likely to have died.”
“Another myth down the toilet…”
Not quite.
That paper looked at Europe, but I live in the US.
Looking at US costs, the obese do indeed cost more.
“Making the cost impact all the more troubling is the fact that, unlike smokers, obese people tend to live almost as long as those who keep their weight under control. ”Smokers die early enough that they save Social Security, private pensions, and Medicare” trillions of dollars”, said Duke’s Eric Finkelstein. “But mortality isn’t that much higher among the obese.””
From: http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/04/30/obesity-now-costs-americans-more-in-healthcare-costs-than-smoking/
The reality is that unhealthy lifestyles really do cost those of us living in the US a great deal.
“unhealthy lifestyles” can include alcoholism, smoking and promiscuity without adequate protection. And yet few of the people with these lifestyles are publicly shamed.
Alcoholics aren’t shamed? Then why do they need the second A in AA? Get a clue.
Smokers don’t face discrimination? What do you call the anti-smoking laws? Even seen the sneers from non-smokers when a smoker lights-up?
I’m guessing you live outside the US, or perhaps on another planet.
Anti-smoking laws (which are not universally accepted) exist because of the proven dangers of second-hand smoke. I have never seen smokers publicly shamed for their habit solely based on their own health. Smoking is still considered “cool,” as numerous articles about Mad Men can attest.
Yeah that’s a good point. I admit I do sometimes sneer at people who light a cigarette near me, but that’s because of second-hand smoke and the really horrible smell of cigarettes. Also, AA is anonymous not because drinking alcohol is considered so shameful, but because having an addiction is considered so shameful. Our society views addiction as weak and somehow a failing of the person who is addicted.
Exactly. If anything, excessive drinking is considered “cool,” and for men especially it is considered manly. The problem with alcoholism is not the drinking itself but the idea that someone “can’t handle their liquor.”
Heather,
monkey referenced alcoholics, not just people who consume alcohol. Obviously a significant difference.
And yes, there is greater public shame in that than an eating addiction. You can lose your job and children for being a alcoholic. It happens frequently.
Actually, you can be fired for being too fat.
It’s also interesting that you assume bejng fat=food addiction.
The “proven dangers” of second hand smoke face the same type of counter studies that others here say prove that fat people don’t cost more for health care. Keep trying.
The WHO, NIH, the American Cancer Society and dozens of other scientific organizations are in agreement on the dangers of second hand smoke.
However, that’s beside the point as there is no such thing as second hand fat, and yet people mock and criticize fat people out of alleged concern for their health.
Monkey,
This seems like a pretty serious straw man. Nowhere do I advocate public shaming, and my primary issue is with the author advocating for society to “stop caring” about the health of individual members. At no point do I say anything about obesity in comparison to smoking, alcoholism, etc.
I think you are attacking an argument I did not make.
Fine. Are you consistent then? When people complain about anti-smoking laws or celebrate drinking, do you bring up the health concerns?
I have seen people berate absolute strangers who happened to be overweight about how they should exercise. I’ve never seen the same with cigarettes or alcohol.
Monkey,
Again, you don’t know me, and you’re continuing to create a straw man argument.
I don’t berate anyone publicly, whether they are fat, smoking, or binge drinking.
What I do is point out that it’s a bad idea to argue that the health of other people “is not anyone’s business.” Indeed, public health concerns should be all of our business.
But this does not mean there should be public shame. I have supported pigouvian taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, and tanning booths. This is important because public policy should discourage these activities. Yet this is a far cry from “berating” anyone.
Please stop trying to put people into boxes and start listening to the things they have actually said.
Actually, what is none of your business is the assumption that someone is unhealthy simply because they’re fat.
Please quote to me where I said that (hint: I never did).
Or at least scroll down a bit to where AI mention supporting HAES.
And please start giving others the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically assuming the worst in everyone.
My point is why even bring up health at all? Why is it your business?
If we lived in a world without Medicare and Medicaid, one where private hospitals could completely refuse treatment, then I would agree with.
But we do not live in that world.
We live in a world where Medicare picks up the tab for elderly healthcare, regardless of what situation the person is in. Forgot to exercise for the past 4 decades? It’s cool, the taxpayers will pay for triple bypass surgery, regular bloodwork, and your type II diabetes treatment.
Kept yourself healthy? Great, you get no actual benefits, but your tax dollars go to those who didn’t keep healthy.
Have private insurance? Great, you’ll be overcharged for the bill that Medicare just stiffed the hospital on. This will be reflected in higher premiums. The hospital can’t help this because they hav to provide care by law.
This is why I care about public health legislation: because I pay for it out of my taxes and insurance premiums.
“We live in a world where Medicare picks up the tab for elderly healthcare, regardless of what situation the person is in. Forgot to exercise for the past 4 decades? It’s cool, the taxpayers will pay for triple bypass surgery, regular bloodwork, and your type II diabetes treatment.”
So then the morbidly obese would be best since they die off quicker? Your logic is a bit sketchy here Mike, people living longer costs more money. Those who have bad health will probably die much earlier due to heart disease (especially men), so taxpayers wouldn’t be paying for pensions, etc. (Unless your welfare system doesn’t pay for the elderly like ours in Australia does?)
We all pay taxes, or at least we should. I don’t drink, smoke, do drugs or drive recklessly, but as long as those behaviors don’t harm other people I have no say over what those people do.
Nobody is under obligation to you or me to be healthy.
@Archy
The point is that there is no accountability. Why should my taxes subsidize someone else’s bad habits? Where are we as a society that we effectively subsidize unhealthy activities by covering the associated medical costs without asking any questions? Have you seen personal responsibility anywhere lately? I sure haven’t.
Finally, follow my link up-thread: thanks to outrageous medical spending the morbidly obese do not actually live shorter lives. They stick around and cost us more money.
@monkey
You are still missing the key piece here.
You write “but as long as those behaviors don’t harm other people I have no say over what those people do” and I completely agree with you.
But I am harmed every time a medicare/medicaid deduction is taken from one of my paychecks. I have demonstrated this through links up thread, and you still seem to be ignoring this basic fact.
Alright let’s pretend for a moment that somehow the healthcare costs of obese people are greater, and that somehow (even if they’re privately insured) you’re feeling that cost (because it’s driving up your rates or something). Let’s pretend that’s true. And you hate it, because you don’t want to have to pay for someone else’s choices.
Brilliant, then let’s stop paying for police officers with tax dollars; largely what you’re paying for is the time and effort for cops to clean up the messes people make. Let’s get rid of prisons entirely, as goodness knows what a drain they are financially, and everyone in there who is guilty has made a poor decision. How about whenever there’s a car crash and some part of a public road has to be fixed, let’s let that clean-up wait until the private insurance of whoever was at fault sorts it out. Or better yet, let’s get rid of car insurance altogether (as your premiums might go up) and just force the person at fault to pay out of pocket, and if they don’t have the cash, let’s liquidate all their possessions to pay for it…and if they still don’t have enough cash to pay for it, well tough luck and the road just stakes screwed up…because my hard-earned tax dollars sure as heck aren’t going to repair a road I didn’t even break!
See the problem…
What if you one day need to use medicare or medicaid? Do you see any benefit to paying into a system you may need to use at some point?
@HeatherN
The comparisons you make seem immaterial. Not only do I benefit directly from having police (compare the crime rates in San Francisco and Oakland, and then compare their relative population sizes and relative police force sizes: more police help), but those who drive up my police costs are literally punished: they are fined and/or sent to prison.
The same goes for prisons, etc. those who abuse the system (by committing crimes and thus costing us dollars) are punished by the system with fines and jail terms.
Those who drive up my medicare/medicaid costs experience no such consequence. They receive the treatment and that is it.
The comparison is totally immaterial.
@Julie
I have heard the argument before, and in general I would agree if there was any form of accountability at all.
As I wrote above, if I abuse other sorts of services, I am punished. People who commit crimes go to jail. People who start fires go to jail. People who commit fraud go to jail.
People who abuse the healthcare system by forgetting to exercise for 4 decades do no go to jail. They get their medical expenses covered, and are sent on their way.
This, to me, is unacceptable.
So is your solution to kick them off of insurance or to enforce some kind of state mandated exercise and menu plan?
Not Exercising or eating badly or smoking are not currently crimes. Should they be? What are the penalties? How do regulate people’s private lives? What if some one can be seen to adhering to proper state mandated nutrition and exercise but still is obese or has high cholesterol?
I’m sorry, but I don’t consider taxes a “harm.” It’s a fact of being in a society.
But again, my point is that you are assuming something based on someone’s looks, whereas many vices (smoking, drinking) are hidden or even considered “cool.”
I find it odd that you consider paying taxes an undue hardship but are essentially advocating much more intrusive policies towards other people.
Which is more “harm”: a tax burden that is spread over everyone or singling out some because of their unhealthy behavior?
In any case, this just shows me that universal single-payer healthcare is the sanest system possible.
Offer weight-loss surgery for cheap/free then, it’s beneficial overall. Offer free gym and a personal trainer or free stop smoking courses, etc to help combat those issues. But what about the many injuries people have due to stupidity with alcohol? Alcohol costs the economy quite a lot, tax it more? Put in a health tax if there isn’t one already? Why should my tax money pay for someone who got drunk n got into a fight? Why should my tax money pay for someone who had a car accident because they were a terrible driver? Why should my tax money pay for a paraplegic’s care because they dove headfirst into unknown waters? Why should I help pay for shark attack victims, the sea has sharks so obviously they knew the risks? What about snake bites when hiking? What about getting the flu when being around another person?
Accountability is a slippery slope and I can easily justify a hell of a lot more than blame the fatties n make them pay their own way with it.
@Archy
In the US alcohol is already subject to additional taxes, referred to as an “excise tax” with the understanding that this helps to cover, in part, the costs created by the use of alcohol.
I know you’re from Australia, and I don’t know if there’s a similar tax there.
There are also additional taxes on tobacco in many localities in the US, again to compensate for the harms as well as to discourage use.
Personally, I would support additional taxation of unhealthy foods, as well as possibly providing tax breaks for “goods” like gym membership.
Your other concerns are non-sensical because they involve very slight probabilities. Very few hikers get regular snake bites, very few swimmers get bitten by sharks, etc.
There is no “small probability” for the individual that consumes 4000 calories a day and gets no exercise: there is only a definite outcome.
For me this is the fundamental difference between health and any other sort of issue. We are NOT talking about slight probabilities here, we are talking about FORESEEABLE society-wide detriments. We all know the statistics, we all know the situation is getting worse, and we all know that without change the increases in type II diabetes, hypertension, etc. are inevitable.
There is nothing inevitable about a shark bite, or a snake bite, or anything else. There is simply no comparison.
@Monkey
The key difference is between a tax I *have* to pay and taxes that people could *choose* to pay.
At present, I have no choice but to pay medicare/medicaid taxes. If I don’t, I will be fined, and over the long term probably go to jail.
On the other hand, I can easily avoid paying a tax on tobacco: I just won’t buy tobacco.
If you cannot see the obvious difference in government intrusion here, I cannot help you.
@ Julie
I really liked the book “Nudge” by Thaler and Sunstein, and I would probably recommend a lot of their solutions. Mostly this would involve carrots in the form of tax breaks (say for gym membership) and sticks in the form of excise taxes (say for sugary drinks).
I’m not looking to jail people, I’m just looking for accountability.
This whole debate began because the author of this piece advocates allowing anyone who wants to eat themselves into type II diabetes to feel no repercussions for this action. As someone who inevitably will end up paying for their medical treatment (through higher premiums and increased medicare/medicaid taxes) I object to this sort of argument.
I don’t want to “criminalize” anything, but I also think it’s foolish to make pretend that we should just let people be as unhealthy as they want to be because “it isn’t hurting anyone else.” Indeed, through taxes and insurance premiums it is hurting EVERYONE else.
Something needs to be done about this, we cannot simply pretend that this isn’t a problem.
What do you think about holding the government accountable for allowing advertising of bigger better meals, utilizing HFCS, etc etc and supporting a corporate food culture that allows for food products instead of food.
Julie,
Frankly this is difficult for me because two of my core beliefs (consequentialist libertarianism and pragmatism) are running up against each other.
In my “ideal world” we wouldn’t have medicare or medicaid and charities would care for those who couldn’t afford services. I also believe that in such a world the cost of services would be considerably lower in the first place because government-created market distortions (such as medicare underpayments) would not exist, meaning that care would actually be more available. I recognize this position is unpopular, but I would also point out that very few economists, regardless of their political affiliation, believe that medicare and/or medicaid is a good idea. I could go on a long tirade about why they are correct, complete with empirical evidence, but suffice it to say: I’m with them.
However, I also believe in pragmatism and recognize that the electorate is going to force medicare and medicaid upon me whether I like it or not. In light of this reality I am forced to support policies that will minimize the harm of those programs.
This is where ideas like pigouvian taxes on tobacco, alcohol, and sugary drinks come in. Ideally, I don’t want them, but because I have to live with medicare/medicaid, I’ll support them as better than the alternative.
When we look at advertising, farm subsidies, etc. it’s going to get murkier.
I don’t think there should be curbs on advertising in the slightest, mostly because the evidence that advertising actually impacts consumption is weak. Prices and personal tastes are much larger components. Again, I could site sources and empirical studies, but suffice it to say that I have seen sufficient evidence that I believe this position is justified.
I don’t like farm subsidies, so those can go, but I don’t like them because they are market distorting, regardless of their impact on diets.
Finally, as for HFCS and “corporate food” I’ve found the evidence to be rather thin. When I have spoken with/read articles by people with titles like “Dietician” or “Nutritionist” I get to hear about how HFCS is evil. Yet when I speak with/read articles by people with titles like “Chemist” or “Biologist” I get a very different story. I tend to believe the latter and dismiss the former.
Mike L
You may not choose to pay for tobacco and alcohol, but you still pay for the Medicare/Medicaid of people with lung or liver disease.
Taxes go to a lot of things I don’t approve of. But I live with it, and it’s still less intrusive than literally body policing fat people.W
Monkey,
Frankly I am tired of this. You have repeatedly misrepresented my position with strawmen arguments, and here you are doing it again.
Not once did I ever suggest we should “body police fat people.” I have made this repeatedly clear, and yet you have consistently claimed that this is my position.
I am done debating with someone who consistently misrepresents my statements.
I apologize if I’ve misrepresented you, but it comes from a place of misunderstanding. What exactly are you proposing? You don’t like paying for other people’s health care. So what’s your solution?
I think poverty and income inequality have more of an effect on rising medical costs than obesity. People with low wages often don’t get health insurance from their employers so chronic health problems develop due to combination of smoking, alcohol consumption, poor diet and insufficient maintenance healthcare. I work in healthcare and see many more people of lower income status develop cancer, heart disease, emphysema, and diabetes than obese people in middle income levels and up. The catastrophic medical expenses come when the 54 yr old restaurant janitor has a heart attack or gets hit by a car walking to work, goes to the ER without insurance and has surgery to save his life, then requires medication for the rest of his life. Those are what drive up costs for the “pool” of insurance policy holders with access to routine care for most of their adult lives. It is not obese people because most people who weigh over 200lbs are technically obese but face far less health problems on average than morbidly obese people.
http://meps.ahrq.gov/mepsweb/data_files/publications/st247/stat247.pdf
Click through for the data and you will find that healthy people are more expensive in terms of medical care over their lifetimes than either obese people or smokers because they live longer.
This is not a good argument in favour of being obese or a smoker.
Children are not born fat. The comparison with LGBT and fat people is completely absurd. We have had a trend over the past 50 years to massive levels of obesity. This isn’t a result of natural, genetic issues. It’s not like being gay where in the past they were just in the closet. There is no closet for being fat. I don’t think it is fair to burden the rest of the world for your poor choices. You can say WHATEVER you want about not being able to control your being fat due to “genetic” issues or whatever but you won’t find fat people in famine-plagued areas of Africa. Why? They eat fewer calories than they burn. There is a simple equation of calories in and calories out. I’m someone with an incredibly efficient metabolism. I’m a 6ft tall man and I eat approximately 1,000 calories a day. Why? Because if I eat more I will get fat. Is it fair that my 5’2″ female friend can eat 3x as much as I do and not gain a single pound? No, not really. Does it change the fact that I can and do eat an appropriate amount of food to match my metabolism and exertion level? Nope.
I won’t say no one can be overweight because of an unavoidable medical issue that prevents them from actually being able to not be overweight. I’m sure there are very very rare instances of that. With that said, it is not the 30% of Americans that are obese certainly. I don’t think it is fair that you think I should happily welcome additional costs and inconvenience just so you can consume more calories than you burn. Don’t fit in the airplane seat? Lose weight!
Children aren’t born alcoholics, smokers, drug addicts or prone to engaging in unprotected sex, and yet most of those behaviors are no longer shamed to the same degree as fat is. So what’s your point?
True, smoking has been removed from a lot of public places. But I’ve never seen anyone approach total strangers about their smoking habit.
Then like I wrote earlier, you must live somewhere other than Earth.
When Adele said that she was comfortable with her size, numerous people posted online to claim that they were not just criticizing her for her appearance but showing concern about her health.
By contrast Johnny Depp is pretty much a chain smoker and I have yet to hear one person claim to be concerned for his health. When David Bowie had a heart attack many were shocked because he was “so thin,” not acknowledging his years of drug abuse and smoking.
When Christopher Hitchens was dying of esophageal cancer, he actually got away with his claim that his excessive drinking and smoking had nothing to do with his illness.
Smoking and drinking are still considered “cool,” and therefore users are exempt from the constant shaming plus size people get “out of concern for their health.”
And your point is what? People should be more vocal against smokers, besides forcing them outside and forcing them to pay higher insurance premiums?
I’m not celebrity obsessed, perhaps you are, but has Jonny Depp ever tried to publicly state that smoking was healthy? or that he should have to right to smoke on a plane with non-smokers? Didn’t think so.
No, the problem is that people who are not Adele’s personal physician need to either a) admit that their “concern” for her health is just prejudice or b) shut the fuck up. Preferably b).
Hitchens, BTW, *did* make some idiotic claims about smoking staving off Alzheimer’s. And Depp once said he wished he had two mouths so he could smoke more.
Alrighty, this is becoming a bit of a back and forth, so let me explain a couple of things. Firstly, I don’t think that shaming someone because of their use of a controlled substance is okay. Either they’re just recreational and in control of it, in which case everyone should back off. Or they’re not, in which case they need help, but they shouldn’t be shamed for being addicted. With regards to laws surrounding controlled substances (including cigarettes), I think it’s totally acceptable to limit where substances can be smoked, and what activities people can do while under the influence. Those laws aren’t about shaming or discriminating…those are about protecting the general public. That’s what laws are supposed to do.
Fat shaming, however, is something on top of addiction-shaming. In the case of AA, people are afraid of being shamed for an addiction they actually do have. In the case of fat-shaming, anyone and everyone who is considered fat is assumed to be addicted to food and/or lazy. This is totally inaccurate. Does food addiction exist? Certainly. Are some people lazy? Well yeah. But neither of those is necessarily true of someone just because they are fat, and both of those could just as likely be true in someone that is skinny.
Society at large assumes a whole host of personality and behaviour traits of a person based on nothing more than their size, and that’s wrong.
This is exactly what I was getting at. The attitude is usually to show disgust at someone’s fat and then justify it by claiming they’re doing it out of concern for the person’s health.
My point was that if it were really about health, there would be more criticism of smokers and drug users – not smoking and drug use in the abstract, but actually criticizing individuals. As it stands, they usually get “who are the puritans to tell people what to do?”
It always seems to me like some people are simply disgusted with the look of people who are heavier (or the perception that the people are highly indulgent or lazy or some other puritanism) and so they justify that feeling with concerns over health and costs. Smokers are extraordinarily high risk in terms of health and I don’t see that level of disgust over them.
It’s just strange to me.
Julie,
Respectfully, this view point seems dismissive of ACTUAL concern over health care costs. It also seems dangerously close to a strawman argument that looks something like “Anyone claiming to be concerned about healthcare costs must be prejudiced against fat people.”
We have a REAL problem with healthcare costs in this country. You cannot imagine that away as made up.
I am aware of the crisis and I also believe it is born of a very complex set of systems. And I also believ that there are some peoPle who, instead of admitting their
Personal distaste for the obese, couch their bias in concern for
Costs. Not all, some.
Look, I don’t know how to say this, but, on this site I have been repeatedly told that similar views points are wrong, including at least once by you, because it’s wrong to assume that others are being inherently disingenuous.
Usually, those instances look something like “Some racism is real, but some people of color also exaggerate the amount of racism they face in order to justify their own beliefs.”
This usually gets me called a racist, accused of calling people disingenuous, and a host of other negative responses.
Yet here we are, and you are making substantially the same argument, that “some concern over health is real, but some people are exaggerating their concern over health in order to justify their own beliefs.”
This seems like a huge problem to me. Either the argument form is acceptable, or it’s not.
I have an even bigger problem with smokers.
I love how it’s always this individual choice and will power thing. There is so much self righteousness in it. Food and metabolism and how the last 100 years of industrialized food affects our metabolism is so amazingly complex I don’t think anyone can understand why bodies seem to be changing as they do.
I see a system filled with the following: A culture based on “more and bigger,” subsidies for icky things like high fructose corn syrup, food deserts, McEvil meals costing less money than healthy food (in many cases), parents and families working multiple jobs, schools with far far less alloted time for PE and open recess times, more time spent community instead of walking to a bus and then to your job, people who feel pills should do the work of healthy food, a media culture obsessed with thinness to begin with (especially with the ladies having babies and losing baby weight in a month’s time-NO GOOD NOT HEALTHY to lose weight that fast), will power and discipline are actually limited (http://lifehacker.com/5662132/youve-got-a-limited-supply-of-willpower-so-use-it-wisely), metabolic functions being affected by processed wheat and sugar, leaching chemicals from plastic bottles and more and insulin resistance being a real thing that actually makes it harder to lose weight when the weight is gained.
But for some, it’s always this choice thing, this self righteous thing. Reminds me of sex and abstinence and what a useless method that is to stop kids from having sex. “Just don’t do it, I didn’t!”
And I say this as a woman with a low BMI and healthy weight (though one who suffered an eating disorder in college). Food should be healthy, bring joy, and bodies come in numerous shapes and sizes. Several of my relatives, even at their thinnest were big big people. Big frame, big muscles, prone to padding. No diet in the world was gonna make them look like me, medium to small framed. No shaming would make them change how their bodies worked. Their mental health and happiness is important.
I would prefer that we stop with the fat shaming and move more towards a culture of food that creates and provides food that is actually nutrient filled, real (not processed to death), and contains minimal ingredients. Kill the trans fats, kill theHFCS, get rid of the monocultures, bleached wheat, and glutens. Eating almonds and berries is much healthier than a fruit-and-nut bar sprayed with vitamins and filled with cheap cornsyrup binders. I’d also love better national health care and limits on marketing for the pharma companies that love to create solutions for problems that don’t exist. Lots of costs hidden in there.
Perhaps we could maybe all be healthier (lower costs of medical care) and actually accept that people have different body types.
Much harder to do it my way, and I suppose not nearly so much fun as blaming all the fatties for our medical costs. Makes me quite angry.
There are also things like adenovirus 36 which apparently trigger more fat cell production and from what I know, the more fat cells, the more fat you absorb like a sponge. You also excrete up to 20% of calories depending on the food but with processed foods I think that drops considerably as it’s quicker to uptake. Not to mention foods can be addictive, I have a sugar addiction sadly and the cravings are evil! During childhood I comfort ate a lot and became obese as the food made me feel good in a time I was being bullied and felt like shit. Partly it was my fault, but I do put some responsibility on society that allows traumatic experiences to happen where some of us are unfortunate to have poor self-control.
I had lap-banding surgery and before surgery I would be able to eat a meal, get full, but STILL be hungry, but after I found I could be full AND satisfied finally. I’d like to see how many of the willpower lovers would react when they were hungry constantly and had major cravings for energy dense foods. Could you resist a constant gnawing hunger? Now imagine that with tastebuds that absolutely hate many veggies and make you nearly want to throw up just trying to force yourself to eat them, it’s a vicious lil combo.
As I age though I add new foods to my diet and I am eating healthier, I use to hate onion but now I am ok with it. I had a chicken burger once with beetroot and caramelized onions once, the flavour mix was amazingly good. Years before I wouldn’t have dared to try the burger with any veggies.
Maybe we need to find ways to train our taste better so folks like me can eat veggies and not be disgusted by them. It could be as simple as a different recipe or way of cooking food that can make the difference, there have been a few that I can’t eat alone but go ok when cooked right with the right ingredients.
“Perhaps we could maybe all be healthier (lower costs of medical care) and actually accept that people have different body types.”
Julie, this would be great, but it is also NOT what this author is advocating.
Personally I really believe in the Health At Every Size (HAES) movement. But the key word in that movement is HEALTH! People will have whatever body shape they have, but they also have a responsibility to both themselves and society to be healthy.
This author has said exactly the opposite: that people can be as unhealthy as they want and it is none of our business. Aside from being a problematic attitude, this is also a world view that will literally cost us money in terms of insurance premiums and medicare/medicaid.
The shape of your body does not matter, but that does not mean we should turn our backs on health.
I agree that there is much much more at play in the obesity epidemic than simply people have poor self control and lack the willpower to eat right and exercise.
Look around anywhere you go, city, rural, suburbs, you can spend $5.95 to have lunch at an all you can eat chinese buffet but 3 apples cost $6.
Food and healthcare have been hijacked by a for-profit mentality that priortizes making money above all else. When profit is the goal, you start getting cows fed on corn and drugs because its cheaper and makes them grow bigger, faster, than letting them graze on natural grass. The demand is always going to be there for food, and people want as much as they can get for as cheap as they can get it, just like every other product for consumption. And with healthcare, when you look at the big picture it is more profitable for healthcare providers, specifically drug companies, for people to be chronically ill but still able to live as long as possible. So we get endless floods of drug saturation for every thing you could imagine.
“Food and healthcare have been hijacked by a for-profit mentality that priortizes making money above all else.”
This.
“I don’t think anyone can understand why bodies seem to be changing as they do.”
I was just having this conversation with a couple women I know. We noticed that people seems to be reaching puberty at earlier ages now. One woman mentioned that her seven year old sister has underarm hair and the other mentioned that her eight year old daughter has started developing breasts, which the other woman noted that her sister did also.
You can want to be fat. Why am I not allowed to think that’s a foolish desire?
I have a problem with this article in the same way I would have a problem with an article that encouraged people to drink polluted water; sure, you can do it and be alright, and some people have to do it, but if you see a kid drinking polluted water, when clean, safe water is available, you should absolutely tell them not to do it.
“A fight for fatties to be acknowledged as having a multiplicity of identities, medical histories, eating habits, behaviors, childhoods, personal tastes and preferences, and life experiences.”
I agree with the vast majority of what you just said. However, how I deal with the “why is there fat?” questions is by delving into what you described in the above sentence, . I get that the question is loaded but I’m also not comfortable with completely ignoring it because I’m not comfortable with telling me people to stop asking certain questions. Also, me ignoring it isn’t gonna make the “why?” questions stop. People still wonder, they still ask, and I’d rather answer with getting into nuance and discussion than completely ignoring it at all times. Sometimes depending on who it’s coming from, it’s not worth getting into and the “why” question should be ignored, sometimes if people actually want to have a good-faith conversation about fat it’s worth discussing the “why?” questions.
I’m a thin man and I generally prefer fat women. I’m married to a gal who tends toward the curvaceous, voluptuous, pleasantly plump, etc. She exercises, eats “healthy”, and does most things right healthwise. Her health problems (and by that I don’t mean her weight) tend to come from genetic causes. I know the ins and outs, and I’m not judging.
But I can check out an anonymous large and lovely lady walking down the street, and on a certain level, I don’t give a shit if she’s an strong, athletic big gal or someone who habitually says yes to all of life’s pleasures and has packed on the pounds. All I know is that she looks good.
A secondary issue is that guys can and do catch crap from other guys when they date fat women. Also, guys cut themselves off from a portion of the dating pool (even when they secretly prefer the shapelier babes), simply out of fear of what their knucklehead friends might say. Not cool.
i don’t think comparing fatness with addictions like smoking or alcohol is appropriate. People EAT because they need to, out of necessity. Yes, sometimes it can be about food choices and other lifestyle choices.
Alcohol and cigarettes do not have any beneficial value. People don’t have to indulge in those things in order to stay alive.
It’s a little off topic, but I think it’s related. The conversation going on GMP at
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-single-biggest-obstacle-facing-boys-and-men-today/
I view fat like excessive porn use. It may be unhealthy, but hurts no one else so why is it a problem?
you are required to explain “thin” as well. my youngest daughter actually came home from school, with not only a report card, but a physical fitness evaluation that says she is “very lean”, a BMI that is, according to the school, too low and cmment that she needs to gain weight. um excuse me, but stfu. leave my 11 year old daughter, already upset that she does not have the required boobs for middle school, out of your judgements. we need to make it unacceptable to judge size PERIOD.
Can I also add that we pay for hospitalization of people with liver disease and diabetes caused by alcohol abuse?
Before the world jumps on the bandwagon slamming on every overweight person, it would be great for each judge to first look themselves in the mirror. “Have I acted in any unhealthy manner myself?”
I actually had this argument with someone today. We are both “in shape” because we work out and eat fairly healthy, as well as being blessed with decent metabolisms. He happens to be on the cusp of alcoholism, so I challenged him when he went to judge a group of overweight people. I said “You can see the symptoms of their [illness or gluttony, or some combination]. But you can’t see the symptoms of an alcoholic’s gluttony except the moment he or she is drunk.”
So, to the readers and writers, I say, “If you are working at it, consious of staying fairly healthy for yourself, don’t do anything to make OTHERS look at you differently. To HELL with those sitting back judging. I have seen those judges, and I know their weaknesses too. Shame, really…