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Understanding Angry Debate
One of the first things you notice when entering a heated conversation between MRAs (including some fathers’ rights groups) and feminist scholars is that the two sides cannot seem to see eye to eye on anything.
A perfect example of such competing worlds is found in the exchange between Amanda Marcotte (a feminist contributor in the debate) and Dan Moore (also known as “Factory,” of the MRAs). For Marcotte, the MRAs are “wrong about pretty much everything”; more to the point: “They’re so wrong about everything, they’re wrong even when they’re right.”
For the MRAs on the other hand, Dan Moore offers, “Why Do MRAs Hate Feminists So Much? In a nutshell, because nearly everything they say is a lie.”
So both sides are lying. And both sides are wrong.
Who is to be believed?
My view is that it depends on which epistemic community one joins on any given issue; although there are significant internal differences within each group, fathers’ rights activists and feminists can act as different epistemic communities on strongly contested issues.
The term “epistemic community” was coined by international relations scholar John Ruggie in 1975 “to refer to dominant ways of looking at a social reality, a set of shared symbols and references, mutual expectations …” One of its most eloquent advocates is Harvard philosopher Catherine Elgin, who points to how epistemic communities are governed by their own sets of rules and criteria. She argues that our investigations, arguments, methods, and results are all “constituted by a cognitive game whose rules and criteria the epistemic community generates and enforces.”
In trying to make sense of the arguments and evidence of some fathers’ rights groups, I have come to use this framework in my work. For example, while I agree with many of Amanda Marcotte’s points, my personal and epistemological approach is not to hurl stones. I choose not to stand on one side of the road, yelling at the other side. They will simply yell back. And the worst part is that nobody can hear what the other is saying. This is because both epistemological communities are governed by different rules and criteria; they have competing sets of references and expectations and contrary ways of deciding what counts as evidence.
This argument about epistemological communities resonates with some of Thaddeus G. Blanchette’s measured contribution to the GMPM debate. As Blanchette writes, “Both groups are convinced that they know the truth about gender relations, a priori. They then tend to process evidence regarding the functioning of the sex/gender system in the real world according to these prejudices.”
So does this mean that we surrender to the postmodern mire of accepting that all knowledge is relative? No. We move forward not with anger, insults, and taunting, but through making solid and convincing arguments. It means respectfully critiquing the other side when one believes that they are wrong, and use solid research rather than taking cheap shots.
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Using Two Lenses When Viewing (and Listening to) Fathers
A second strand of my approach to combining feminism with a promotion of active fathering (while also keeping some distance from the more extreme fathers’ rights groups) is to use two lenses* to observe fathering. Metaphorically speaking, it’s like having two pairs of eyeglasses: one pair for making visible the stories that men tell about fathering, and a second pair for locating these stories into wider social, historical, and cultural contexts of changing gender relations. Put differently, taking a double lens allows one to appreciate men’s pain as set against a larger painted canvas of changing fathering and shifting gender relations.
In a nutshell this is how it works: with one pair of lenses, I see and hear the stories told by fathers when they are separated from their children. Some of these stories are, indeed, painful ones. In my research with single fathers, several fathers wept inconsolably during our interviews. In my six years of work with the Father Involvement Research Alliance (FIRA)—a Canadian research and activist program that has focused on a diversity of dads and their experiences—we heard heartbreaking stories from teen dads shut out from their children’s lives and stories of grief from dads who were fighting for custody.
These stories are real and common. For separated and divorced fathers, for example, there is ample narrative and statistical evidence to suggest that fathers mourn the loss of their children. FIRA researcher Denise Whitehead, in a forthcoming book chapter, highlights this issue of father mourning, as well as how rates of depression are higher for men than for women following the dissolution of marriage.
So one sees, hears, and empathizes with fathers’ unique and shared stories. But then one puts on the second pair of glasses (the ones with the long-range and wide-angle vision) and attends to the historical and social changes that have occurred—or not—in the social institutions of fatherhood and motherhood.
There has been a lot of social change around involved fathering. Indeed, I have argued that there has been a revolutionary shift in the involvement of fathers in children’s lives. For example, stay-at-home fathers and single-father households have increased in Canada and the U.S., and increasing numbers of Canadian men now take paid parental leave. More widely, men’s participation in domestic work and parenting is increasing toward a point of near gender convergence.
Nevertheless, while men have increased their time and emotional investment in parenting, it is still overwhelmingly women who take on the lion’s share of the responsibility for the care of others. As Ann Crittenden highlights so well in her book The Price of Motherhood, it is still women who pay a high social and economic price for taking on most of society’s care work.
And this is the main point of enduring gender difference in parenting, and the one consistent finding across my two decades of work on this subject: men and women remain judged, treated, and viewed differently as parents. Men are still viewed as breadwinners, and women are still viewed as caregivers (even in households where the roles are reversed).
Women are judged when they care too little. Men are judged when they care too much.
There is suspicion when men show too much interest in other people’s children. The opposite is true for women.
Men still feel some discrimination in playgroups. Women do in boardrooms.
The list goes on.
Perhaps the best example of how women and men are judged differently in relation to parenting is the media frenzy around the story of a mother who left (and then came back to) her children. Rahna Reiko Rizzuto, author of Hiroshima in the Morning, has been brutally criticized; as she recently noted, “I’m worse than Hitler, apparently.”
Replace this woman with a man who left his children, and then perhaps came back to be part of their lives. Would anybody blink? Indeed, he would be praised for coming back.
Most women are still held to a social norm—one that is etched in their everyday lives and in the social institutions (work, family, schools, communities) that make up those lives—that they must take on the primary responsibility for children. For most men, this remains a choice rather than an obligation.
In Canada and the United States, we are still in a process of transition around the social institutions of mothering and fathering. At the same time, there is increasing evidence that many men are, or desire to be, active and engaged fathers. This is a theme, constantly displayed here at the Good Men Project Magazine, and a goal that pro-fathering activists and researchers work toward. It’s a goal they share with many feminist scholars and activists, who share Sara Ruddick’s belief that including men in “every aspect of childcare” can lead to “radically recasting the power-gender roles.”
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I am sad to note that I while I was writing about my debt to Sara (Sally) Ruddick, she passed away March 20 in Manhattan, at the age of 76.
*This metaphor of the “two lenses” is part of a co-authored and forthcoming book chapter on fathering and feminism with my FIRA colleague Linda Hawkins.
—Photo KellyB./Flickr
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More on men’s rights from the Good Men Project Magazine:
Meet the Men’s Rights Movement
Hugo Schwyzer: How Men’s Rights Activists Get Feminism Wrong
Paul Elam: On Misandry: What’s Wrong With Men?
Tom Matlack: Adultery’s Double Standard
Zeta Male: The Top 10 Issues of Men’s Rights
Kaelin Alexander: Men’s Studies: Teaching Masculinities in the Margins
Pelle Billing: Unlocking the Men’s Rights Movement
David Futrelle: Dismantling the Men’s Rights Movement
Dan Moore of Menz: The MRA Perspective
Ron Mattocks: When Men Are the Victims of Abuse
Tom Matlack: Do Divorced Dads Get a Raw Deal?
Blixa Scott: Why Do We Forgive Adulterous Women?
Joseph Caputo: Can We Degenderize Domestic Violence?
Just had to contribute. I was a stay at home dad for 10 years. My Ex wife is a dorctor. she worked 14 and some times 18 hours a day. In the divorce court even after hearing this fact the judge was not conviced I was the primary care giver. He gave her temporary custody in which my daughters were left alone most of the time with my 13 year old in charge. When we got back to court the next time I proved that I was the primary care giver. I had barley seen my kids for weeks. I… Read more »
John, I originally wrote a long post in reply to you, but due to TGMPM’s charming habit of automatically updating the page, I lost most of it. Here are the highlights… First of all, you make global claims regarding men and women and work, but it seems to me that most of your experience with work comes from middle class U.S. professions – in other words, the small minority of the world’s work situations. Even in those, you seem to show some charming conceits, as for example when you think of a “maid” as basically some self-employed house cleaner when… Read more »
Hey, It’s only 3.5 weeks later, but I tripped across this page & saw your message & figured it deserved a reply. Per Thaddeus: “First of all, you make global claims regarding men and women and work, but it seems to me that most of your experience with work comes from middle class U.S. professions – in other words, the small minority of the world’s work situations. Even in those, you seem to show some charming conceits, as for example when you think of a “maid” as basically some self-employed house cleaner when the vast majority of people doing that… Read more »
Well, Mark, anytime you feel tough enough to put your money where your mouth is, you just let me know, okay?
Otherwise, if you aren’t willing to analyze and defend the proof you link us to, please don’t bother claiming that anything is “proven”. You’re as much of an ideologue as the feminists you condemn, scarfed to death that someone will actually pull a fine-toothed comb through your “evidence”.
So much for MRA complaints that it’s the feminists who aren’t willing to look through the evidence, I guess. 😀
Wellokaythen: I got short with Reader because this is about the 4th thread in which she has regurgitated her mantra that men have nothing to cry about post-divorce if they setup their marriage in the provider/carer model. There have been several other instances when me & others have challenged her mantra and played “switch the genders” to show that if a mother of divorce had to seek approval from her ex & family court to build a life outside of strict caring time because she was “locked in” to the roles she chose for 18-25 years this would correctly be… Read more »
John D I am sorry but people who subscribe to a “movement’ (i.e. the MRA rhetoric) that identifies itself only by the father’s needs and rights and not by those of the children and the mother is, by it’s own definition, not capable of parenting (by the definition of child development and other experts). I have listed a number of men who ARE excellent fathers and have blogs, books, organizations devoted to this. (Badalement, Vachon, Pruett, JASmith, Poulter, Real, etc) They recognize fatherhood as a responsibility to be there personally to meet the needs of children, not just a “right.”… Read more »
Per Reader: “They recognize fatherhood as a responsibility to be there personally to meet the needs of children, not just a “right.” They get equal parenting, and have those good effects on their kids, because they show up and do the work of it, including the emotional and psychological work of focusing on others’ needs, especially their children’s needs” —– The work as DEFINED BY YOU. I think it’s strange that feminists state there are no (or few) innate gender differences, then make it sound like fathers who work long hours outside the home are just doing what they love,… Read more »
Actually Shared parenting would have a pro female effect on the wage gap, divorced men wouldn’t have to work as much because of parenting time and the reduced alimony and child support, divorced women would have more time to work and have more incentive to do so… And wage gap has nothing to with this The outrageous Peter Spitz case, in a nutshell: Mother shoots and kills mother-in-law and shoots sleeping husband three times, permanently disabling him. Mother is acquitted by reason of insanity Mother is being relased from custody and can now spend time with their son but father,… Read more »
anyway
Fathers rights is not about wage gap, making fathers rights about wage gap is just feminist slight of hand.
Father rights is about abusive women abusing their partners and their children by abusing the system,
Not disparities in visible taxable earnings due to lifestyle choices.
Reader No I did not generalise that all women in divorce courts have disorders, as you well know. I was talking specifically about the ones that are using children and the courts as a proxy weapon against their ex. and the ones that make a unilateral decision to exclude or replace the father without good reason and so generate the existence of fathers rights groups. And you have blamed the victim, and “patriarchy” for the behaviour of these women, you have also repeatedly implied that there will be no recourse for these men and their children unless certain ideological demands… Read more »
Jayne – I am sorry but people who subscribe to a “movement’ (i.e. the MRA rhetoric) that identifies itself only by the father’s needs and rights and not by those of the children and the mother is, by it’s own definition, not capable of parenting (by the definition of child development and other experts). I have listed a number of men who are excellent fathers and have blogs, books, organizations devoted to this. (Badalement, Vachon, Pruett, JASmith, Poulter, Real, etc) They recognize fatherhood as a responsibility to be there personally to meet the needs of children, not just a “right.”… Read more »
This is a small victory and an indication of why there are fathers rights groups. “PROVO — Police report that a Provo woman was arrested Thursday for sexually abusing her daughter as a tactic in a custody dispute. According to a police affidavit, Tiffany Marie Petrossi admitted to using a jagged fingernail to injure her daughter in 2009. At the time, she allegedly accused the child’s father, Jesse Huffaker, of committing the sexual abuse. The affidavit states that Petrossi told police she had found injuries on the child immediately after a custody exchange with Huffaker in August 2009. Petrossi eventually… Read more »
Got, what an absolutely horrific misandric article. Let’s start with the reason for including fathers into raising children, which they already were, but, let’s leave that aside for now. Is it better for the kids? Better for relationships? Better for men? Nope, it isn’t even better for women in general, not it’s better for the power mechanic. Yes, give women more and more power regardless of how much they already have, that’s the key! Then there’s the standard power-hungry horror of feminism: the personal is the political. After all, if the personal is simply left to persons, that might mean… Read more »
Reader says: “If you want equal parenting, set your marriage up that way with both parents earning, both parents parenting and both parents doing roughly half the unpaid work of the family.” Okay, I can see some wisdom here. It’s something of a fair statement about fathers establishing themselves as parents. If you want to get credit for being a father, then put in the work. I get that. That’s not entirely fair nor is it that simple, but I get the idea. However, if the argument is the father gets out what he put into it, then by the… Read more »
“That’s not entirely fair”
Why not?
In other words, what is not fair about the statement that “If you want to get credit for being a father, then put in the work.” ?
If you want equal parenting, then set up your marriage that way with both parents earning and both parents parenting and both parents doing half the unpaid work.
What is “not entirely fair” about this?
Books about how to do this include “Equally Shared Parenting” by Marc Vachon.
READER “In other words, what is not fair about the statement that “If you want to get credit for being a father, then put in the work.” ?” The time use surveys show that shared outside work, parenting and house work is the norm. you are attacking a strawman with this argument, repeatedly. “If you want equal parenting, then set up your marriage that way with both parents earning and both parents parenting and both parents doing half the unpaid work.” Women are free to chose what ever set up they want. “What is “not entirely fair” about this?” Its… Read more »
Jane, you’re wasting your time with Reader.
What you have to do with people like her is reverse the genders on their argument. Even if you don’t convince them, you’ll expose how capricious, bigoted and unjust their motivations are.
Reader: In other words, what is not fair about the statement that “If you want to get credit for being a father, then put in the work.” ? If you want equal parenting, then set up your marriage that way with both parents earning and both parents parenting and both parents doing half the unpaid work. =========== You know what’s interesting about this? No matter the calls to justice or fairplay, benefit of the child, equal rights or anything else you just stick by your golden mantra: “If a father wants shared custody after divorce he should have set up… Read more »
I’ll answer the question put to me. I’ll try to explain what I think I meant by “not entirely fair.” I think the idea is generally fair that a parent in a custody case should get parent status based on what parenting that person has done in the past. Note that in this last sentence I said “parent” in a gender-neutral sense. What I see as unfair is the way that it seems to be practiced. I’m not hearing a comparable standard applied to mothers. I know that this is a men’s issues blog and the article is about fathers’… Read more »
Did Hook get banned and, if so, why?
I mean, I disagreed with him, but I don’t think he did anything that required him to be censored, let alone stamped from the virtual ether….
Fathers rights groups are there mainly because of narcissist and borderline personality disordered women that use their ex’s children and the courts as proxy weapons, feminist jurisprudence has created a situation where these abusive personalities can use children and the courts in a campaign of abuse with relative impunity and the men that are targeted for this abuse have little power to do stop it. NOW.org actively obstructs parental alienation from being recognised as a form of child abuse and lobbys against mens rights groups that seek improve the system that favours these abusers. “ww w.highconflictinstitute.c om), providers of education… Read more »
High conflict people are usually attracted to – and attract – high conflict people. A healthy person does not usually marry an unhealthy person. So these husbands are often just as unhealthy as the wives – if the wives are. I gather you are a woman since your name is Jayne? There has been a substantial “second wives’ club” effort to erode the rights of first wives – and I suspect you may have fallen into their thinking. This is especially likely to happen to women who grew up in male breadwinner homes where they were 100% reliant on the… Read more »
Reader. “High conflict people are usually attracted to – and attract – high conflict people. A healthy person does not usually marry an unhealthy person. So these husbands are often just as unhealthy as the wives – if the wives are”. Citation? Also abusers look for victims, if a woman that has been victimied by a male with a PD responsible for it, or is just the case when a male is the victim? You don’t have to answer that. And you are very out of touch, a significant portion if relationships have a female breadwinner, and the shared duties… Read more »
Ok, the other point that I wanted to make is that this conversation is missing the point that under normal circumstances, there are no mens rights issues when it comes to family law, the issues are generated by abusive ex’s and mothers who are using the fathers children and the courts as a way to inflict emotional abuse on the child’s father. The issues include, mother on child abuse, obstruction of contact, false allegations against the father which the court accepts without evidence, proven abuse by the mother that the court ignores, the mother just deciding that the child is… Read more »
Why won’t my posts go where they are supposed to, I’ve put the basically the same thing through four times now trying to get it to the bottom of the thread?!
Double post, sorry I put the first one through in the wrong box, I’m trying to add this on to the bottom of the thread but it keeps posting half way up it for some reason. A missing component from this conversation is the fact that Fathers Rights groups are populated by men whose ex’s are using their children and the courts as proxy weapons. There are a whole range of issues, parental alienation, mother on child abuse, false allegations, obstruction… and so on that are being generated by abusive mothers and feminist jurisprudence leaves the father little or no… Read more »
Double post, sorry I put the first one through in the wrong box.
A missing component from this conversation is the fact that Fathers Rights groups are populated by men whose ex’s are using their children and the courts as proxy weapons.
There are a whole range of issues, parental alienation, mother on child abuse, false allegations, obstruction… and so on that are being generated by abusive mothers and feminist jurisprudence leaves the father little or no recourse.
Under normal circumstances, a non abusive woman won’t obstruct contact.
This conversation is missing the crux of the issue for fathers rights people.
There are no custody problems when the situation is being set up between normal people, it becomes a problem when an abusive ex spouse/mother is using the system and the child as as a proxy weapon or abusing the child and the father is left powerless.
Father rights groups are generally populated by the ex partners of abusive women that are obstruction reasonable contact.
Mens rights groups succeeded in getting the language of VAWA changed so that it was gender neutral in 2005 Here is the gov. document relating to the changes (take out the x) htXtp://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp109&sid=cp109WvwUu&refer=&r_n=hr233.109&item=&sel=TOC_137274& “In this part, and in any other Act of Congress, unless the context unequivocally requires otherwise, a provision authorizing or requiring the Department of Justice to make grants, or to carry out other activities, for assistance to victims of domestic violence, dating violence, stalking, sexual assault, or trafficking in persons, shall be construed to cover grants that provide assistance to female victims, male victims, or both” And… Read more »
Following is my 3part rambling monologue which details in explicit detail exactly the information (that I have to hand anyway, I’m sure there is much more) proving feminist activist organizations combat of fathers and men’s rights. Following are some of my wandering thoughts on why most of the fault of bad blood (between the two mentioned groups) lies with feminists. This is simply because the largest and most influential feminist organizations and the most active feminist members (i.e. those feminists most engaged and with clout to exert political will do so with the intent to) attack men’s equal rights. One… Read more »
Another issue in regards to fathers is forced acquiescence. Feminists were all over the concept of forced acceptance when the discussion was women dropping allegations of rape due to fear or shame. But, when it comes to father’s shared custody feminists put their fingers behind their back and cross them when they say that:”95% of fathers agree to the custody arrangement.” Feminists know full well, that any father contemplating fighting for shared custody likely has been told by his attorney that he may pay many dozen’s of thousands of dollars only to achieve less custody/visitation than the standard alternating weekends.… Read more »
If feminism is here to help men, then why did not one major feminist organization join as a signatory in the 1999 STOP RAPE NOW bill? If feminism is here to help men, then why did NOW have a closed door session with Obama to re-direct the stimulus? NOW stated that the stimulus shouldn’t be given to “sweaty men” and 41% of the stimulus (for “shovel ready jobs”) was instead given to female dominated fields in education and medicine which HADN’T been hit with the huge wave of layoffs that construction and manufacturing had? In other words, in the worst… Read more »
Typo:
That should be STOP PRISON RAPE NOW bill. in the first sentence.
Did Hook get banned? In any event Thaddeus. In the thread about the wage gap, I posted my comment that was in moderation limbo into word. Here is my response to your comment that even in metropolitan cities where single childless women making more declines to a negative (compared to men) as they age: These all verify that their is no wage gap discernible from discrimination. It all boils down to women’s choices. The last is a link to an abc story about a wife who was in a 2income household who suddenly was thrust into a provider role due… Read more »
It seems to me… MRAs are mostly only concerned with fatherhood *after* a divorce. They don’t put much effort or concentration into pre-divorce fatherhood. I’ve gone over sites like The Spearhead and A Voice for Men and couldn’t see a single article that was teaching more hands-on father skills (that would aid in a legal argument that the father did in fact know how to change diapers and had done 50% of the child rearing)… I didn’t see them bemoan the statistics that many father’s don’t know the names of the kids doctors or dentists… they don’t give men the… Read more »
“I didn’t see them bemoan the statistics that many father’s don’t know the names of the kids doctors or dentists… ”
So they aren’t moaning about mommy-blocking? They’ll get to it eventually.
Henry
Why on earth would men who have had their children taken, turned into proxy weapons and cash cows be worrying about hands on parenting skills and surely they learnt them when they were parents and thats why they want to be able to have their children in their lives,?
Besides, none of the websites you mentioned are fathers rights oriented.
Per Henry: MRAs are mostly only concerned with fatherhood *after* a divorce. They don’t put much effort or concentration into pre-divorce fatherhood. nd couldn’t see a single article that was teaching more hands-on father skills (that would aid in a legal argument that the father did in fact know how to change diapers and had done 50% of the child rearing) —— As Mark mentioned you weren’t perusing any father’s rights web-pages. If you’re really interested in why you should jump to conclusions and hate father’s rights web-pages, at least go to the correct places. Some general thoughts on your… Read more »
Amber says:
April 9, 2011 at 10:44 am
0 0
I can mention plenty of feminists at my university who are in favor of men’s rights. You just won’t hear about them because they are getting things done
——–
Such as?
If feminism is here to help men, then why did NOW have a closed door session with Obama to re-direct the stimulus? NOW stated that the stimulus shouldn’t be given to “sweaty men” and 41% of the stimulus (for “shovel ready jobs”) was instead given to female dominated fields in education and medicine which HADN’T been hit with the huge wave of layoffs that construction and manufacturing had? In other words, in the worst recession for men since the great depression feminists demanded (and got!) much more money to make the already comparatively better job prespects for women even a… Read more »
This comment was to be the third of three comments in a long ramble, but the other two are awaiting moderation. So it may not make sense until the others are posted.
“MRA” members do it too, John. I think it’s that site called “The Manhood Academy” but these are self-purported MRA members who sincerely believe that women need to be lorded over by men because we are children who cannot make decisions for ourselves. Visit that website, and you’ll see what I’m talking about. The extremists always get the most attention, and you are only ever going to hear the side of the extremists. They are the ones that speak up the most and speak up the loudest, so don’t lump feminists and assume that all of them are doing what… Read more »
Amber, Fair enough. I accept your argument about the manhood academy. However, if you think there is an equivalence between a single web-page calling on men to behave in a certain way and a major feminist organization diverting 41% of the $800 stimulus to female-dominated fields (even though those fields were almost untouched by the recession) from male-dominated industries which shed millions of jobs then you’re not being very objective. Both groups are only being concerned about their constituents not EQUALITY, but NOW is the only group who seems to have ill-earned credibility as an “equal rights” group that can… Read more »
Fathers and families fight for SHARED PARENTING.
NOW fights for SOLE PARENTING.
Which one seems to be fostering equality?
If Fathers and Families fought for shared parenting, they’d have the word “mother” in the name and they’d work with functional shared parenting promoters and blogs like Marc Vachon, John Badalment, etc.
***IF*** Fathers and Families fought for shared parenting?
Clearly you have never been to the F&F web-page, nor to glennsacks.com
How can you simultaneously feel comfortable arguing about a movement you know nothing about and superior enough to start doling out homework to everybody?
Wow, just wow.
If you perused their web-pages, you would know how remarkably stupid you sound.
Should have been $800 BILLION stimulus. hehe
Not sure what could be done for $800 except a really nice flat screen.
I’ve been in a firm that got VAWA for a man.
Where is your research?
The VAWA statute does not limit the gender of the abused spouse to women.
No. It has never had gendered language.
You would know that if you dealt in facts.
‘I’m posting this to Gayle, but my posts keep going to the middle of the thread instead of where I want them too! Mens rights groups succeeded in getting the language of VAWA changed so that it was gender neutral in 2005 Here is the gov. document relating to the changes (take out the x) htXtp://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp109&sid=cp109WvwUu&refer=&r_n=hr233.109&item=&sel=TOC_137274& “In this part, and in any other Act of Congress, unless the context unequivocally requires otherwise, a provision authorizing or requiring the Department of Justice to make grants, or to carry out other activities, for assistance to victims of domestic violence, dating violence, stalking,… Read more »
Is this a refernece to VAWA? Don’t you think the name itself is about as gendered as it can be?
Gayle, What you may say be true, but that DV shelter may already not be receiving VAWA funds. Marc Angelucci of fathersandfamilies.org lead a lawsuit in California with 3 plaintiffs who were abused men who were turned away from DV centers w/VAWA funding. VAWA specifically states that funds from VAWA cannot be used for grants for any dv shelter that helps men. Marc Angelucci was succesful in his lawsuit and the judge stated that the grant process was unconstitutional, allowing DV shelters which accommodate male clients to apply for grants. I’m assuming you’re in california, and if not maybe the… Read more »
Good point. Manhood academy is part of the pickup community, not MRA’s. They openly mock men like Sacks.
Thanks for the compliment. But in the future I would steer clear of personal attacks on a person. In my experience a lot of feminists aren’t liars but actually people of good intentions who get swept up in the victimhood methodology. They have been mislead from incredibly clever, smart, manipulative people at the top. It’s entirely possible Amber really believes what she says. She may really believe that feminists fight for men too. The best way to fight the man-haters, and wake up the innocent mislead is to keep hammering with feminisms total hypocrisies over and over. Another is to… Read more »
It seems pretty clear to me that feminists fear no longer being the go-to authority on equality. The fact that men may start to make legislative changes for fathers rights and men’s rights scare them. In the same way that “Men’s studies” were a preemptive strike against men fighting for equality (men’s studies on college campuses are nothing but an appendix to women’s study that teaches from the view that we live in a patriarchy and that is bad. In other words it teaches men how to be even bigger tools in aiding their rapidly declining rights) so too have… Read more »
It seems pretty clear to me that feminists fear no longer being the go-to authority on equality.
I would agree with this statement. Then again, I never thought that feminists were the go-to authority on equality in the first place.
Neither did I, however that is precisely how much of mainstream media has treated them. Every time I have seen coverage of the boy crisis in print of TV, a feminist viewpoint is always invited. In clash after clash many businesses stand down and agree to whatever demands that feminists make of them. Look at what happened with Obama redirecting nearly half of the $800 billion stimulus bill (from male-dominated industries which CLEARLY needed help to female-dominated industries which were largely untouched by the recession) just because NOW said so. This is rapidly changing. Men’s rights issues are even beginning… Read more »
That’s not going to happen, John, if MRA’s facts are as poorly researched and presented as they often are here.
Unfortunately, I still have like 6 comments awaiting moderation.
Two of them are fairly long posts that go into a detailed history showing how again & again feminists have stood against justified fathers rights.
The simple fact is when you judge the 3 or 4 leading feminist organizations on their actions (instead of letting them self-identify themselves as equal rights) they are shown to be nothing but an advocacy group for ever expanding rights (even when these rights are unjust, unequal, and harm children).
Why not? That approach ahs certainly worked well enough for feminsts over the last 40 years. Susan Brownmiller has had a huge influence, as one example.
You cant base the mrm on one piece of shitty sourcing that was done in the comment section of of a feminist publication.
Go to Breaking the Science, RADAR or loot at any information on wage gap that isn’t feminist in its source and you will find that mra positions are backed up, also John as done a decent amount of sourcing and provided links.
Thaddeus
You shouldn’t judge on the basis of one shitty piece of sourcing, if you want to see the sources that mra’s use find a site called breaking the science and every piece of independent research on wage gap backs up the mra position baring the feminist propaganda, which isn’t based on research.
Also, fathers rights aren’t wage gap, father rights is something else, this article rather cynically tries to make fathers rights a feminist issue – wage gap. So lets not all get duped.
There is an actual thread about wage gap in a different section of this site.
On gender equality and gender issues in general? Really? Note the comment below on the crisis of boys aneucation. Why would it even occur to anyone to include a feminst comment on the matter if this were not that case?
Jim,
I’m not sure I understand the question. Why does mainstream media treat NOW like they actually stand for equal rights when they CLEARLY don’t?
F*ck dude, I don’t know. Why do people act like Dubyah is a patriot, when he illegal spied on American citizens and started a war under false pretenses (and ran out of the armed forces when it was his time to serve)?
People are stupid, people need something to believe in? Who knows?
Amber, good call on that shithole of a site. It shows how the MRM has the same radfem/sanefem split as feminism has.
Jim
That site isn’t an mra site, its a very quiet site too, the comments section is dead.
Also, insane mra’s as the minority, feminism is rife with insanity the gender and radical feminists are in charge of the movement.
It looks like my other two posts (leading into this long one which was 3 of 3) were eaten.
Why I don’t know. There was no profanity or even anything incendiary.
Maybe it was just because my posts made too much sense.
Andrea: Thank you for this article. Unlike some other authors who appear on this site, you make your points without talking down to a portion of your audience. I never feel like you’re clubbing anyone over the head with your views, and even when I don’t fully agree with you I’m appreciative of what you’re saying. I think what you’ve laid out in this piece is very true, especially regarding the disconnect between feminists and MRAs. What’s interesting for me personally is that before reading the GMP, I had never heard of the MRA movement. But because I dared to… Read more »
Dear Daddy, I had exactly the same experience, although my connect to being trashed came at the hands of self-acclaimed feminists who categorized me as an MRA on P.Z. Myer’s Pharyngula page. Frankly, I would have never even heard about the current bafafá with the MRM or have been moved to write my article here if it hadn’t been for Myers making snide remarks about them. Some of his commentators took my reactions to that as an excuse to attack me and then go running to Papa claiming that they had been victimized when they set me up to make… Read more »
Andrea, I think this is a great piece that takes a uniform look in the areas both MRAs and Feminists struggle in. For me, the end message is that we all want to be treated equal, improve our quality of life, without loosing our individual identities just because we might be advocates of MRAs, Feminism or neither; just men and women who see gender social issues. I don’t have to be feminist to think that women are treated unfairly in certain areas. I don’t have to be an MRA advocate to see that men are treated unfairly in certain areas.… Read more »
I agree, Erin, that slander and ignorance happen on both sides. However, I’ve never heard of someone getting banned from a run-of-the-mill site like Pharyngula because they were a “feminist”. I got monkey-piled upon, insulted, virtually abused and set up and then banned, simply because I was supposedly an MRA. From what many men are saying, this is typical all over the net. It was a wild experience. I’d never been subject to such a virtual monkey-pile in my life. The level of (purely symbolic) violence was astonishing, as well as what I’d qualify as gross abuse of power (though… Read more »
I can empathize….try being a woman who is also an MRA. Hell, just try saying you’re NOT a feminist. Other women tell me I’m a ‘traitor’, or that I must hate myself and/or my gender, or that I just want a certain kind of attention from MRA men…..or the best of all (and this is a direct quote): “You are a feminist, sweetheart, even if you don’t know it yet”. Or more telling: “You are a feminist, even if you’re too stupid to realize it”. This from a group of women who claim to want to ’empower’ me and make… Read more »
Sorry about your less than stellar experience with feminists. I’m not a woman and I’ve had a few similar moments. For some reason its like they have convinced themselves that they are synonymous with all things ethical and moral. But I guess that’s what happens when you resort to guerrilla tactics instead of actual arguments. Its like they just can’t handle the fact that its possible to be for equality while at the same time not being a feminist. …apparently I’m not even allowed to identify what I am for myself, because the feminists know what’s best for me, lmao.… Read more »
What’s astonishing is that fathersandfamilies I have read (and believe) are nearly 50% women.
Second wives, daughters, sisters see how anti-father (and by extension anti-child) laws harm the men in their lives and the children whom they are no longer allowed to parent.
There is study after study which proves having fathers in children’s lives lead to better outcomes and a more well-adjusted balance.
Natasha – I suspect most feminists don’t think they know “what’s best for you.” Most likely they probably don’t care to deal with you, because you don’t seem to care about yourself. No one likes to have to take care of another adult.
hahah ok…so to my above post, please add to the list of insane things feminists say to me, that I “…don’t seem to care about [my]self”
Thanks for illustrating my point so well, Reader.
You’re welcome. The MRAs love women who deny their existence as separate people so they’ll love what you say. You can probably get laid by them in a second. Then when the baby is born, you may end up in divorce court or suing them in for palimony or fighting for rights to protect your children from abuse/neglect which they deny men are capable of doing! And you will have helped them get into their overempowered, authoritarian, irresponsible position in the court system! Good luck with that. I wonder if you understand you’re an adult, even if you lack separate… Read more »
ou’re welcome. The MRAs love women who deny their existence as separate people so they’ll love what you say. You can probably get la id by them in a second. ============= Wow, this just goes to show you: When women don’t fall in line with the feminist party line feminists can be some of the largest misogynists ever. What happened to a woman’s sexuality is her business? As original as you may have thought your comment was Reader, I have seen this MANY times. Feminists see all men-loving women as traitors to the cause. How sad. The hypocrisies just keep… Read more »
Reader
“You’re welcome. The MRAs love women who deny their existence as separate people so they’ll love what you say. You can probably get laid by them in a second.”
Can you stop making things up?
You also get accused of being a feminist if you disagree with the MRA side. I identify as being a humanist, and if people want to slap me with the feminist label, so be it. I can’t argue I’m not one, just as I can’t argue I am one. To argue that I’m not a feminist, or to argue that I am a feminist, is just pointless and stupid.
I’ve been accused of being a feminist by several self-proclaimed MRAs right here on TGMPM.
Source for that last stat on women earning more, please…?
So you’re basically saying that women’s dominance in the field of domestic spending somehow translates into more general economic power, Hook?
Y’know, here in Brazil, I bet maids make the lion’s share of those purchases and influence many more. So does that make our domestic worker class the true Illuminati when it comes to Brazilian economics?
My original question, however, wasn’t whether or not women still do the lion’s share of the shopping: it was where is the source of those numbers you cite regarding women’s supposed superior pay?
Could you please give us that source?
In short, you have sweet fuck-all to back up the claims which you are asking us to accept at face value. You think being asked to show proof of your assertions in a public debate is being asked “to fetch”. Ironic, given that you’re one of the voices on this blog most consistently whinging about “political correctness”. Apparently, science is all well and good until your pushed to actually show proof of your claims, Hook. Then, you feel you’re being sorely put upon. I guess I made the mistake of thinking I was debating with someone who actually cared about… Read more »
Here you go…..
http://blogs.forbes.com/jennagoudreau/2011/03/14/jobs-where-women-earn-more-than-men/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/03/us-workplace-women-idUSN0334472920070803
Thaddeus, there is a break in your logic. Maids earn money buy their own two hands, they aren’t “in charge” of spending for somebody else who (potentially) makes much much more than they ever could.
However, this is precisely the situation in many U.S. households. In fact (from what I have read in the past), the higher the income bracket the more of the discretionary spending the wife controls.
Here is a link:
http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=12789
Women control 73% of spending within their households.
http://www.msmagazine.com/news/uswirestory.asp?ID=12789
John, with all due respect, you don’t have a maid working for you, do you? Like most lower middle class and up Brazilians, Ana and I do. Anilda comes in once a week to cook and clean for us. Twice a month, she does our shopping for us. Before you accuse us ofbeineg Evil Brazilian Middle Class Exploiters ™, she makes a better hourly wage than either of us do and gets full workers bennies. Still, one would have to be dense or blind to believe that Anilda’s practical control over 95% of our domestic budget translates into economic and… Read more »
Thaddeus, First of all I don’t know where you get the concept that I was trying to slam you in anything. You’re the person who brought up maids, and I did not see any post of yours stating that you hired a maid, so how you jump through hoops to arrive at the conclusion I was trying to slam you I don’t know. I am a buyer for an automotive plant. Would I presume that I am empowered because I make purchasing decisions at my plant? No. Why? Because I don’t own the property that I’m buying! That is also… Read more »
I don’t think you’re necessarily trying to slam me, John, but I’ve already been accused oncve on this blog for being an unfeeling, exploitative member of the Brazilian elite, so I felt it would be a good thing to defuse the inevitable charge before anyone bothered to bring it up. However, that is NOT true of wives who were secretaries or cashiers at walmart who have heart surgeon husbands and suddenly find themselves wielding purchasing power many times over what she ever could have achieved on her own. That IS empowering. John, seriously: how common do you think that sort… Read more »
I don’t think the heart surgeon male and walmart cashier female is very common, but you’re getting caught up in the examples and not debating the points. The point is your argument about maids don’t stand because while they wield some1 else’s purchasing power, they do not own the property. Why do feminists make all this bruhaha about different wages when husband and wives live in a communal property contract? Men are 95% of those who work in hazardous or grueling jobs like: mining, foresting, roofing, garbage collection (many businesses illegal throw away dangerous chemicals and other contaminated items), commercial… Read more »
John, if it’s not very common, why do you bring it up? Hook’s point is that women are “normally” hypergamous. If you want to support that point, bring up a “normal” relationship, then, and show that it’s hypoergamous. Don’t use as your example a relationship which probably occurs less than a half dozen times throughout all of North America. As for women being property owners, I’m not sure how this is supposed to support the idea that thyey have greater economic power simply because they are the ones tasked with going down to the supermarket to fill up the family… Read more »
Still arguing the example and not the point. I’m not here to defend Hook, so if you want to refute my points then do that. I love how you avoid the point that we live in a common property marriage society. How come women’s wages are evidence of female victim hood but evidence of male disposability (which earns them the higher wages, which women DIRECTLY benefit from–maybe more so than the men themselves) isn’t evidence of anything? Concentrating on 1 example of mine (merited or not) will not detract from the evidence that your maid analogy is in the tank.… Read more »
“women generally determine what brand of toilet paper you use, just like Anilda does the same for us. That is not economic “control” in the same sense that being a major shareholder of a Fortune 500 corporation is control. ” And this is not what John is talking about. Advertizers have discovered that misogyny and misandry sells. If you look for misandrist ads, these are generally aimed at woman as customers. Misogynist ads are generally for vehicle sales. Misandrist ads are basically everything else – food, especially convenience food(!); even home improvement items. There is a study waiting to be… Read more »
What about doing some internet research by yourself?
There are many MRA-websites and you can easily find the links to such articles by yourself.
Again, you’re the folks with The Cause, Yohan, trying to convince others. I just want to see what your assertions are based on. I do a lot of work on prostitutes’ rights issues. When people ask me for proof of my claims, there are articles and more articles at my fingertips and I am HAPPY to link folks to them. Why do I do this? Because a) I know my stuff and am not simply spitting sour grapes and asking people to accept my claims at face value, b) I’m really trying to CHANGE peoples’ attitudes about prostitutes, so I’m… Read more »
The best place to start is glennsacks.com Glenn sacks is probably the nicest guy of the MRA bunch. He’s a pro-gay feminist, who actually was in the care-giver role for about 4 years of his daughters life. If I remember correctly, he stated that the reason he got to be involved in men’s rights was that he felt so lucky to spend so much time with his children. The “being a caregiver is doing the HARD work” of a marriage is total bunk. Being the care-giver is the more fulfilling and easier job of almost 95% of paid work, and… Read more »
John, I just wrote a 3 page response to a colleague who asked me for an opinion re: an article on the prostitution of Chinese women in late 19th century California. I backed my points up with pointers to specific information he could look up. That’s myjob because I’m purveying a point of view. That’s how science and informed debate work. I am not at all interested in spending hours combing through the tons of dross produced by MRAs (or feminists, for that matter) to find proof (or rebuttals) of Hooks’ points. The man has an axe to grind and… Read more »
Thaddeus, I’m not going to defend Hook’s tactics. He’s free to debate in any style, and you’re free to call him on whatever you find lacking. Personally, I look for stuff on the internet for my job anyway, so it’s not a big deal to me. I have figured out kind of the technique needed with the google equations so I can find what I want fairly quickly. I typically do try to post studies, because I want to open people’s minds as much as possible. I don’t want to necessarily win an argument, I want to convince as many… Read more »
So many men choose jobs that might get them killed like mining. They must be easy, why else would so many men choose it?
Perhaps for men and women there are other circumstances to choices that we should acknowledge?
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html
Here is one. I tried looking for others, but this is all I could find quickly & easily
Thank you John.
Now note what else is said in that article:
Here’s the slightly deflating caveat: this reverse gender gap, as it’s known, applies only to unmarried, childless women under 30 who live in cities. The rest of working women — even those of the same age, but who are married or don’t live in a major metropolitan area — are still on the less scenic side of the wage divide.
So this information applies to a minority of American women. apparently the situation isn’t as cut and dried as Hook would have us believe.
Just so you know I posted a bevy of studies that show the wage gap is all due to the different work/life balance choices women make compared to men, but it’s in moderation hell.
The more links you post the more comments seem to be frozen in moderation for some reason.
Probably to avoid spam-bots. I notice Hook is putting a gap between the Ht ant tp in http. That might help.
Thanks for the tip.
I will try to re-post my comments when I have more time.
Right now I have to do some dishes I’ve been putting off.
How much do those maids cost?
The Time article John D. linked us to certainlyy doesn’t say that, Hook. I’m not at all sure of which article you’re talking about here. Being precise leads to fewer misunderstandings.
In fairness, he referenced the Time magazine article & date. That would be a breeze to lookup.
Wow, Hook. That’s incredibly cynical that you would edit that MassMutual article so that it would read something completely different than it actually does. Here’s what the article really says (I added the caps for emphasis): “Senior women ARE AMONG the group of Americans aged 50 and older who control a household net worth of $19 trillion, own more than three-fourths of the nation’s financial wealth and own 70% of all money market accounts and certificates of deposit assets.” I’m sure I don’t have to explain to a person of your intellectual caliber how that differs from your quote: “Senior… Read more »
Thaddeus:
As for women “controlling consumer wealth”, I’ve dealt with that in my reply to John, above. Deciding which brand of toilet paper to buy is what they mean by “controlling”.
Incorrect. These studies are on discretionary spending which would exclude consumables and other household maintenance items.
These are the studies reported in Ms. that you’re talking about here? Here’s what the article says: Women, according to the JEC report, control 73 percent of spending within their households, which is equivalent to approximately $4 trillion in yearly discretionary spending. Furthermore, women are more likely than men to control daily expenditures in more than half of middle and upper-class households. So that 73% of spending is ALL spending within the household and includes consumables and other household goods. Of that, 4 trillion dollars a year is “discretionary spending”, which comes out to be about 25,000 dollars per woman… Read more »
Good point. I will have to hit the books and verify that my beliefs are validated. The terminology I have always seen in the articles I have perused stated discretionary spending. If I have a rebuttal, I will come back on this later. However, even deciding on toothpaste and toilet paper give women some marketing power, just not to the same degree as true discretionary spending. If nothing else, they can always buy products that are doing some type of “Pink Ribbon campaign” or even buy items specifically because their “dad as doofus” campaign gives her a giggle. Here is… Read more »
John, this kind of power that you’re talking about does exist and it even has a name in sociological theory: the weapons of the weak. I’m not saying that women don’t excercize a disproportionate share of decision-making in some aspects of life. I’m not even saying that this can’t give them some degree of power. What I’m saying is that it’s a very weak and conditional form of power compared to the type of power that has traditionally been wielded almost exclusively by men: the power to own and direct major ammounts of capital. When women start overtaking men as… Read more »
Thaddeus, This is really more of a magician’s trick. Watch one hand, while I perform sleight of hand with another. This obsession with women being 50% of the power brokers of society leads a very mis-guided message. This obsession that 90% of the elite are men, leads to the VERY INCORRECT idea that men as a whole have it good. Nothing could be further from the truth. When we take the metrics we use to indicate blacks are powerless and disenfranchised and apply them to genders we find that it is men NOT WOMEN who are the black genders of… Read more »
This obsession that 90% of the elite are men, leads to the VERY INCORRECT idea that men as a whole have it good.
Agreed. Which is why I go for an intersectional analysis rather than a feminist analysis and why I believe kyriarchy rather than patriarchy better describes the society we live in.
Men are 35% of college graduates.
Source, please. That does not at all jibe with what I’ve heard, but hey, it could be possible.
I think the idea of kyriarchy is pretty interesting. I tend to be skeptical of any global model of human power that fits into just one word, but the idea that everything boils down to gender difference (It’s patriarchy! No, It’s matriarchy!) seems pretty flawed, as is the idea that everything boils down to socioeconomic class. I find it hard to make useful, sweeping, globalized statements that put all women in the same category, regardless of income level, or put all poor people in the same category regardless of gender. Not to mention all sorts of other differences and distinctions… Read more »
Wellokaythen:
You’ll find that most privileged white middle class feminists shy away from kyriarchy specifically because it proves that they’re not victims, but actually have about 90% of the advantages of white middle class males (in fact I would contend white middle class women have more privilege but that’s another debate) and puts them 2nd on the power pyramid.
They don’t like to see the justifications for more and more female-only privileges aimed at white middle class women go
go *poof* and disappear
Blame anyone but the Ruling Class-archy.
I’m seriously thinking of proposing a three part series on kyriarchy to the editors, of TGMPM, Wellokay. I’m only worried that they’ll find it too heavy and theoretical.
As for violence being funny when it happens to men, especially if it’s sexual violence, this is a MRM point that I’m 100% behind. The social tendency to ignore, glamorize or find humorous the most appalling violence, as long as it’s directed against a male victim, is absolutely unjustified and has been almost completely ignored by feminists and even by gender studies in general. We easily descry sexual violence against women, but against men…? Hell, even the most outrageous and egregious examples are routinely handwaved away. I am much more worried about this than I am about men’s supposed impending… Read more »
I would also be worried about father’s custody rights. Men raised in fatherless homes are MANY times more likely to engage in violence than men raised with a father. If violence does become the word of the day, it will mostly be these men doing it. Look at the most patriarchal country: Japan. I have never been there, but I have read a lot of articles (not recently, several years ago) about people traveling there. Even in very impoverished neighborhoods, you do not have to worry about your safety there. There are far less violent people and many more father… Read more »
Thaddeus,
I think you’re casting aspersions upon hook unfairly.
I just found this link:
http://she-conomy.com/report/facts-on-women/
The second paragraph reads just as hook produced it.
There is no “among” comment.
Can you reproduce the link to the article you referenced that had the “among” comment?
Sometimes articles are loose quotes of other articles or studies and things get jumbled.
Off the cuff if there is any dirty bs going on, it looks to be you (from what I have uncovered).
Dear John, The original article can be found here, entire: http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6432978/Women-s-work-MassMutual-s.html You will notice that it does not support the claim that Hook is making. You’ll also notice that if Hook had doen the decent and reasonable thing and shown his sources, I wouldn’t have gone to the original article. He only brought up the “facts on women” article, however, AFTER I went to the original source and found that his claim didn’t match the facts presented by the Mass Mutual people. Now, this is a guy who has repeatedly chided me for not doing “due dilligence” and yet the… Read more »
Okay, I read the massmutual study highlights. However, it doesn’t just say that senior women over 50 are among yada yada. It says senior women are among the group of people OVER 50 who yada yada. That vastly changes the number as it would exclude anybody under 50. That changes the group of over 50 women from (in my mind’s eye as I was watching you two debate) that represented like 20% to something more like 55% of this group or more. Another highlight from the massmutual page: * High-net-worth women account for 39% of the country’s top wealth earners;… Read more »
Wow. With those kind of crappy secondary and even tertiary sources underlying your opinions, Hook, maybe you need to do some “due dilligence” and go directly to the sources?
You’re really in no shape to complain about other peoples’ ignorance when you’re quoting crap yourself, man.
OK, Hook, let’s take ONE claim, at random, from that MRA bricolage you’ve linked me to. How about the McCall and Land piece “Trends in White male adolescent, young-adult, and elderly suicide: Are there common underlying structural factors?” This article seems to be splattered all over the daddy-rights and MRM bloggosphere and the most common quote from it – presented pretty much everywhere – is this: “A family structure index — a composite index based on the annual rate of children involved in divorce and the percentage of families with children present that are female-headed — is a strong predictor… Read more »
Hook, when you can accurately report the information presented by the articles you use to support your points, come talk to me. The fact that you have to change the quotes you present so that they say something completely different tells this old professor volumes about the quality of your “analysis”. If you were to present that kind of crap in a classroom, you’d get an “F”. Were i presented in a court of law here in Brazil, it be chargeable as a crime (false ideology, i.e. knowingly adulterating the content of proof). Why should I take you seriously when… Read more »
By the way, Hook, when you repeatedly call your intellectual opponents “liars” and then get caught changing the text of the article you cite as “proof” for your opinions, you’re really in no position to lecture anyone about either “due diligence” or abusive behavior.
Hook, I’m not going to page through a ton of articles, the most of which are poorly written based on even worse science. You can link me to what you consider to be the BEST article showing proof regarding your claims of fatherlessness, or not bother, as you please. As for changing the text, if you didn’t change it, then the MRA source you are citing changed it. Go directly to the ORIGINAL source (MassMutual Financial Group–2007) and you will quickly see that the information is not as you have reported it. Whether it is you or your secondary MRA… Read more »
The site which, I remind you, you linked us to here as proof of your opinions. Hook, it seems pretty clear to me that anyone can get you to believe pretty much anything, as long as it shows women coming out ahead of men. If it does, you’ll not check the source or show any skepticism whatsoever. Meanwhile, when othe people misstate themselves, quote bad information, or are simply wrong, you choose to call them “liars”. I AM considering the sourse here, Hook. As I’ve said many times, feminists and MRAs tend to believe what they WANT to believe. As… Read more »
Thaddeus “Proof…?” Women at the top of business outearn men – Saturday, December 13, 2008 By Torsten Ove, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette A Carnegie Mellon University study has concluded that women executives out-earn their male counterparts. The study, which examined 16,000 executives over 14 years, found that women at the top of the business world bring in a bit more than men and are promoted at the same rate, countering the popular notion that women earn less than men for the same work. “That common perception is not borne out by this study,” said Robert A. Miller, professor of economics and strategy… Read more »
How many of those 16,000 execs were women, Mark? The gripe about wage disparities is not usually about people at or near the top of the socio-economic pile: it has to do with why certain female-oriented professions typically earn less than like-skilled male-oriented professions. I don’t know a single person out there who complains that female execs are getting grossly underpaid in comparison to male execs. I HAVE heard women complain that there are very few female execs. And I what do you reckon that if I go to that source, I’m going to find relevant information that you’re not… Read more »
(hope this one goes through)
Thaddeus
Why does it matter that you have heard women complaining about the number of female executives verses male when the number is relative to the number of women that chose to be executives verses that of males and relevent information like what? that women that chose not to be executives dont become exectivies, or that women that chose to become partial house wives on the strength of the combined wage make less visible income to those that work part time?
edit
or that women that chose to become partial house wives on the strength of the combined wage make less visible income to those that work full time?
Mark, I am disappoint. 😀
Seriously, I don’t want to be accused of intellectual bullying later, so can you please do this?
Read that article about executive wages carefully and then clearly and concisely explain what you think that study proves and what you think this indicates with regards to gender and economics in ngeneral.
Then I’ll give you my analysis of the article from a social scientific viewpoint.
But seriously, man: this is the second time I’ve had an MRA refer me to “proof” that was nothing like what he said it was. It’s getting kind of annoying.
Thaddues The “proof” that’s been offered to you is that women when they chose to, they can our earn men, (Young childless women in cities, and that chose to get to the top of business and in a host of individual professions, some of the very surprising, truck driving for instance), and the women that make up the wage gap, are on a combined wage which is half theirs anyway. And you are talking about comparable jobs paying the different wages based on which sex dominated them… cleaning offices and laboring outside in all weather for example, are not really… Read more »
It’s all a metter of simple choice, then, John? Is that what you think that study on executive wages is saying?
I know you`ve flooded us with links, John. I can only take them one at a time. Mark seems to like the exec wages link, so let`s start there, shall we?
Or would you rather not discuss this proof and just have us all take it on faith? Because so far, I have to say, the MRA record for links here on this economic topic has been pretty poor.
“Because so far, I have to say, the MRA record for links here on this economic topic has been pretty poor”
Thaddeus,. you’re being dishonest now, one piece of shitty sourcing isn’t a record of sourcing, and that piece of sourcing makes up I’m estimating around 1/30 of the sourcing that has been done for this thread.
This is the second piece of shi77y sourcing MRAs have done on this thread, Mark. The first was a claim that Mass Mutual says elderly women control 75% of the U.S.’ investment capital. Now, my question is this: are you going to step up to bat behind that “shi77y source” (your words) that you linked us to regarding executive wages, or can we discard that and move on to ANOTHER one of your “shi77y sources”? Because I’m willing to lay you dollars to donuts, Mark, that at least 2/3rds of the sources you linked us to regarding women’s supposedly superior… Read more »
I’m not bowing out, I’m suggesting that we allow men to discuss fathers rights on this thread, fathers rights is not a feminist issue and its not wage gap. That was a cynical appropriation and a slight of hand that we have allowed ourselves to be sucked in by…. this Trojan horse of a publication is constantly doing this to its readers.. The mass mutual thing was four or five days ago now and you are still using it dismiss the other 30 or so pieces of sourcing that have been posted here. I think what we are seeing are… Read more »
Mark, I’m talking about analyzing the links you posted. I’ve already read through most of them and I’ve noticed a common trend: most of them don’t say what you seem to think they say. Now, I’m one guy: I can’t analyze them all simultaneously. I can only do it one at a time. I took the exec salary link as my statring point, but if you’re reluctant to start there, I’ll be happy to start at ANY link you choose. Now, I agree that we can discuss father’s rights. But you folks brought up the wage gap and why it’s… Read more »
Thaddeus The proof is there that women, when they do the same work, often get paid more than their so called “oppressors” – young single women in cities and women at the top of business, for example. You can make stereotypical feminist arguments like pointing to the fact that married women often choose to engage the tax farm system less and so pay less direct tax and therefore are economically oppressed, while ignoring the facts that these women are actually on the family wage which is a combined wage, have more rights over the property, can dismiss the tax farm… Read more »
Mark, claiming that “the proof is there” isn’t the dame thing as discussing that proof. If those articles DO NOT say what you claim they say, the proof isn’t there, is it? So I invite you to choose any one of those articles and we’ll take a look at what it really says, as opposed to what you claim it says. We’ll go to original sources, if at all possible. And then we’ll look at a couple of other articles. In short, we’ll really dig into your claims. If you honestly believe that “the proof is there”, Mark, then I… Read more »
Thaddeus You have set the bar at inconclusive proof, set another rule where you can’t follow links because you know what they say already, set another one where female execs out earning male execs doesn’t matter because you have only heard women complaining that there aren’t enough female execs… and so on. You’ve received decent sources/proof of Women out earning men when they do the same work… and women controlling most the money that comes in off the family wage when they chose not to do the same work…. and its no secret that in that situation the tax farm… Read more »
How about this bar
You back your dogma based assertions that
1) the job market doesn’t adjust for dangerous and extreme working conditions.
2) that saying that fatherlessness is a strong predictor of adult dysfunction is outrageous
3) a women that can have her working partner evicted from the property the couple share on a whim and controls the majority of the money that her partner earns, is the less powerful component of the unit.
You have set the bar at inconclusive proof… Yeah, that’s some bar, man: let’s see what the studies actually say as opposed to what MArk says they say. Whooh. Can’t imagine why anyone would find that reasonable. You’re right: looking objectively at claims to proof is an inexusably high bar. Why, that would make this sort of thing SCIENCE instead of just warmed-over political rhetoric. And neither MRAs nor feminists really want scientists poking into their claims, do they? You back your dogma based assertions that 1) the job market doesn’t adjust for dangerous and extreme working conditions. So let… Read more »
Thaddeus,
You’re putting forth a straw man. If you have a contention that fields are deliberately under paid (because they are female dominated) then show us your study that states that.
I have already tendered many links that show the wage gap entirely due to women’s life/work balance choices they make during their life.
Now you’re claiming that entire fields are put on the sh*tty end of the stick because they’re female dominated? Talk is cheap, produce a study (not another feminist echo chamber article stating the same thing, but a study).
John, I have made no contentions at all yet, only reaspnable hypotheses. I`m discussing YOUR hypothesis that women are economically in an equal or stronger position to men. That`s the proof I`m looking at for now. I`ll take your studies one at a time. Right now, I`m talking about the exec salary study. Or would you rather I looked at another study? Citing tens of studies via google doesn`t make any difference if they are all or mostly shite. So let`s see if they are valid, shall we? Or are you seriously saying we should take these things on faith… Read more »
The comment I’m specifically referring to is: The gripe about wage disparities is not usually about people at or near the top of the socio-economic pile: it has to do with why certain female-oriented professions typically earn less than like-skilled male-oriented professions. I saw a little of this covered in Warren Farrell’s book The Myth of Male Power. It is covered much more clearly in his new book:”Why men earn more. I remember seeing an interview between John Stossel and Warren Farrel on 20/20. If I remember correctly in 23 of 25 attributes of jobs that tend to bring extra… Read more »
Dear John, I’vbe read quite a bit of Warren Farrell and he’d be the first person to admit that men earn more money than women. His thesis is NOT that gender economics are equal. Furthermore, one or another of those “extra compensation” attrbiutes can be found in most jobs, male of female. Oddly enough, they generally only tend to be compensated for in high-status male work. If the work is not high status and/or male compensation typically doesn’t occur. Let’s look at them, shall we? Travelling for your job: sex worker, migrant worker, cleaning person (many make HUGE commutes). Willingness… Read more »
Thaddeus, Since the comments have been all chopped up, I will re-post your comments, then add my own. ** Dear John, I’vbe read quite a bit of Warren Farrell and he’d be the first person to admit that men earn more money than women. His thesis is NOT that gender economics are equal. Furthermore, one or another of those “extra compensation” attrbiutes can be found in most jobs, male of female. Oddly enough, they generally only tend to be compensated for in high-status male work. If the work is not high status and/or male compensation typically doesn’t occur. Let’s look… Read more »
Dear Andrea, Thank you for a thoughtful and interesting article. I wholeheartedly agree with you: looking at our expectations regarding fathering is a keystone to this whole debate. I would only add that there’s a whole class component to this that also needs to be addressed. Until care work is taken as seriously as boardroom work, we’re not going to see much change and the less powerful partner (whomever that might be) is going to get the dirty end of the stick. Another comment: you seem to think that relativism is postmodern and leads us to a directionless mire. In… Read more »
Thanks for this comment, Thaddeus, and your thoughtful additions to this debate. I agree that class is central as is the issue of the devaluation of care work. I also think that the issue of relativism (with its varied shades) is too large to unpack here, but your comment is appreciated and well stated.
In my online writing and blogging (a recent activity for me), my goal has been to compress rather than expand; the downside is that elaboration and complexity are written out. Thanks for helping to expand some of the points made in this short piece.