Lisa Hickey explores the dynamics of men and goodness from where she stands.
The first time I met Tom Matlack was just over two and a half years ago. When we met, all I knew about him was that he was putting together a book. He had asked me to lunch because he had heard I knew something about social media. As we rode down the elevator from his office, he carried the unfinished manuscript in his hands, about a hundred pages, unadorned, double-spaced on white copier paper.
As we walked the block to the restaurant from his office, he told me that the book was “essays”. My heart sank. In my mind, essays were boring, academic exercises. But a few steps later he explained that they were first-person stories held together by the fact that they were all “defining moments” in men’s lives. The moment – Tom explained as we were walking – when a guy woke up one morning, looked in the mirror, and everything he knew about being a man – everything he knew about being a good man – seemed to be in question. The story of the guy who wanted to divorce his wife but didn’t want to lose his son, and the only person he could talk to was a janitor in the buildings he had to inspect for demolition. The dad who had watched doctors try to jump-start his son’s heart, after his first son had died of a drug overdose. The guy who had been to Iraq taking photos of the war, had come back to Brooklyn, and realized he no longer knew how to function as a civilian. “You know”, Tom said. “Those moments.”
We weren’t even seated at the lunch table before I realized the brilliance of Tom’s idea.
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When I started talking with Tom about what this thing that would ultimately become “The Good Men Project” might look like, it was clear that the word “good” would always be up for debate. Tom was adamant that he, personally, was not about to define good. Not then, not ever. For one thing, he explained, he wasn’t good enough. For another he wasn’t about to play god. I was relieved. The last thing I wanted to do was judge people as to whether their actions were good or not. Or worse, tell someone how to be good. But what was interesting was exploring the space where that happens and why.
For the first time, I started articulating my own ideas about goodness: Goodness is not something you are born with, and it changes over the course of a lifetime. Goodness is not an inherent quality, but a moment-by-moment series of actions and decisions. We each develop our own, internal moral compass that sometimes guides us and sometimes spins wildly out of control. We develop “good” the same way we develop any other strength – by acting in certain ways, and watching the world act back. Practicing. Understanding. Internalizing. But because that moral compass is so individual, so deeply embedded in people and not something often shared, there’s often a “go it alone” feeling in developing one’s own. It is all too easy to have someone shout out from the sidelines “Hey, what you just did sucked.” It is much harder to back up to before that action, and explore how you got there.
As Tom told me the stories about the men he had talked to, he was not villanizing, not heroizing. He was looking at multiple facets of their life, how life forces had shaped them. How their ideas about being men shaped them. It was experiences I had never had. Yet when these men questioned whether what they were doing was good, I was right there with them.
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While I knew the word “good” was subjective, what I didn’t realize was that the word “men” would be up for debate as well. What traits define a man that couldn’t also define a woman? Turns out, no one has really been able to define that in a way that makes sense to me. Is gender just a performance? Are the differences between men and women all simply socialized?
And if there is no way to define what makes a man, and no way to define what good is, why on earth would I want to run a company called The Good Men Project?
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Paul Elam ran a post recently titled “All this goodness is killing me.” In it he challenged Tom, and I, and anyone else to answer this question:
Please inform us of anything, one single quality, that you think constitutes a part of being a good man – that does not also apply to being a good woman.
Tom answered in his post “What is a ‘Good’ Man?“. Jackie Summers answered here. And here’s my answer:
Goodness, as I’ve said, is not an inherent quality. Neither are most traits that are either “male” or “female”.
The difference is that men and women are raised to believe different things are “good”, and those differences are often assigned to a gender. For men. And for women. Take the very example used in Paul’s post — how the Costa Concordia cruise ship tried to evacuate “women and children first”. That has everything to do with a society that perceives there to be differences in men and women – a systematized, ingrained perception that a “good man” has to give his life in a way women are not called upon to do.
It is this difference that is worth talking about.
A fellow contributor to The Good Men Project, Justin Cascio, explains it this way: “Men are disposable, the way Elam says, and it’s why we fight wars and go down with ships and work ourselves to death to support children. The rule about “women and children first” is just another manifestation of the patriarchy. The patriarchy hurts men enough that we should want to dismantle it out of enlightened self-interest.”
While there may be nothing inherently different in being a “good man” or a “good woman”, there are plenty of ways in which society tries to trick us into believing there are.
One of the big ways is by constantly portraying men as either villains or heroes. Are there any shades of grey in the portrayal of men in the media?
And guess who is made to feel the most “disposable” in our society? Villains, who get killed off, and heroes, who give up their own life for a cause. No wonder men feel as if they can’t win. It is understanding this dynamic that has opened my eyes as never before, and given me the greatest of empathy to men’s issues and stories.
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Another contributor, Nikki B., sees it this way “women have had decades to talk about how they want to define being a woman, and to decide that gender stereotypes and performance don’t always work for them. The genderqueer, etc. movement has brought to the forefront the idea that speaking in the binary like that isn’t really helpful and marginalizes many people — and has asked us to think more broadly about gender and its many expressions. To show the reality that you can switch genders, or blur the lines, if you see fit. Gender rules are not hard, fast, or necessary — and can in fact be restrictive and harmful.
Men, on the other hand, have not had this freedom. Men have not had the space to think about what makes them good — each as an individual. Instead, they’ve had intense pressure to uphold gender performance to prove their manhood, to stay within confined sexual boundaries to keep from being called “gay” or “feminine” etc. To leave all that bullshit behind and just allow men to talk amongst themselves about what Good means to them is what, I think, the GMP is about.”
The difference between a good man and a good women, Paul, is that men have different issues than women have. Issues related to divorce and custody. Around abuse and assault. Around being successful, defining success. Around who gets to fight and who gets to protect. Around parenting — there may not be any differences in the actions between a man or a woman when it comes to being a parent, but there is difference in perception of what is good in each role. And because any definition of good is often defined at the moment where there is an issue, a conflict, a moral dilemma, when an important choice has to be made — there will, in fact, be a difference in what is seen as a good man and what is seen as a good women as long as there are gender differences in the social constructs of the day.
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If we can’t figure this out, if we can’t talk about it in open, honest ways – it could quite literally kill us. What we’re trying to do here at The Good Men Project is let people take the parts of masculinity that they *want* to have, and get out of the box on the others.
Just because society has told us how to act yesterday does not mean we have to act that way today.
The Good Men Project is about letting men tell the stories that will give them the chance to define themselves as men. To define themselves, both individually, and collectively, as good. And I see nothing but good in that mission.
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photo: spencer77 / flickr
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We can “have a conversation” Lisa but it cannot involve women.
I obviously disagree, gwallan. One contributor (a man) said “we, as men, like to look at ourselves from the inside looking out, but also from the outside looking in.” And for me, personally, well, I don’t think there’s a conversation on earth women can’t feel they can be a part of.
That said — I would of course respect your personal desire to talk only with men about certain issues. You should never feel as if you had to talk to someone you didn’t feel comfortable with. No one should.
I think it can not only possibly invoved but that it must involve women if for no other reason than men and women both must either co-exist or perish in the long run (I say in the long run because while they both exist now look at how things are so messed up). But I do agree that women should not be able to dominate the conversation. In fact its not too different from the noise going on about Hugo is terrible for daring to take a leadership position among feminists given that he is a man. But as Lisa… Read more »
@Danny… Lisa continues to misunderstand. This isn’t the “good person project”. Women have no place in defining a man let alone defining what constitutes a “good” man. I would assert the opposite just as strongly. The greatest loss men and boys have suffered over the past half century is that of male only institutions. A male entering a female environment alters the dynamic of that environment. This is recognised hence numerous female only environments are encouraged. The opposite is also just as true but is not acknowledged. The mentoring, leadership and guidance once provided by men for younger men and… Read more »
Women have no place in defining a man let alone defining what constitutes a “good” man. I would assert the opposite just as strongly. Agreed which is why if I did get the sense that Lisa, Joanna, and the other women around here were trying to impose thoughts on what a good man is on us I’d have left long ago. (Which is why I’m glad that folks like Hugo are gone and/or going, people like that that try to tell us what we should be shown the door.) The greatest loss men and boys have suffered over the past… Read more »
Elam’s question is a show-stopper at first glance. But it’s a red herring. No one is questioning the common humanity of males and females. Neither sex has exclusive claim to goodness. Goodness is not gender-specific, but it is gender-related. That is, it shows up differently in males and females, as your piece points out. And as David Byron says, goodness requires different things of men than women—in his terms, a kind of doing more than being. Almost universally, manhood is a culturally defined and mandated achievement in a more distinct way than is womanhood. Moreover, we have to continue for… Read more »
Well, exactly Larry. Thanks for your very articulate explanation.
Paul Elam is not the first person to question the use of our words “good” and “man”. But — really — how telling is it that we can’t even have a conversation about the term “good men” without being questioned.
Exactly why we’re having the conversation.
I really like the idea of a place for men to share their stories and discuss masculinity. My main worry is that people may be expected to understand and accept the basic doctrines of feminism before the things they say will be taken seriously. I’m not saying I want to bash women or see this site turn into a copy of The Spearhead, I would just like to see a truly open discussion where men can be honest with themselves and each other without feminists (or MRAs) dictating what is and isn’t allowable to think or talk about. That being… Read more »
@ Melanas – people are always interested in two cents, especially in these economically challenging times! But – I want to know more about this “I would just like to see a truly open discussion where men can be honest with themselves and each other…”! I’m interested in the other 98 cents, mainly because you really can’t get much these days for less than a full dollar! So what would “truly open” look like to you? How does honest look like and how does it get written up? You said you were a “lurker and sometimes-troll”, so what would you… Read more »
David Byron. Your observation reminded me of something. The 101st Airborne had its worst day not in Normandy, or Arnhem, or at Bastogne. It was when a bunch were returning from the Sinai zookeeping duty. Their charter crashed just off the Gander–iirc–airfield. Turned out the single guys volunteered to take later flights so the married guys could get home for Christmas with their families.
What annoys some people is that the official explanation is a power failure and crash, the autopsies, such as are not redacted, show guys with smoke products in their lungs. IOW it was on fire first.
If it’s not women and children first, it’s women and children last because men can always kick the women and kids around and get to the lifeboats–or whatever other lifesaving devices fit the situation and of which there are too few. I think feminism is going to have to come up with a code word for difficulties, something that says, convincingly, “We didn’t mean it. We were kidding.” Now, of course trying to think about what the men of the Titanic thought as the water came up, the freezing North Atlantic in April, and the life boats drifted off is… Read more »
Lisa. I don’t get which men you refer to in your comment of 10:19.
Thanks.
I assume it references this quote from the article:
Oh, sorry Richard, that wasn’t clear at all. I was referring to the thought of being a man on that cruise ship and being told “women and children first.” Horrifying. It should just never happen. So many things went wrong on that ship — things that actually might have gone better if we all stopped looking at such rigid roles. The fact that the crew and captain didn’t radio for help right away. (Unable to admit a grave mistake quickly?) Then, when it was obvious there was trouble, few people stepped up to lead — many wanted to help but… Read more »
Great article, but I’ve got to disagree with you on ‘Women and Children First’. Maybe it’s because I’m old, but to me it will always be ‘Women and Children First’. I was horrified to read accounts of the Costa Concordia where men pushed past women and children to get to the lifeboats. I repeat, it’s always ‘Women and Children First’. Hey, maybe that’s the ‘Male Privilage’ the “Feministas” are always railing on about!
Actually, there was a statement I read in another article on this site. A statement so simple, yet so profound, it explained most of the difference between men and women in todays’ world Women are allowed to be, but a man is expected to do”.
Did you mean that thing which went round where people expressed compassion for the men who didn’t want to leave their families (because they were serving a function they get to live) but said the single men ought to have volunteered to die?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122359379658821047.html
It;s an interesting (and short) article anyway but I thought this was relevent especially here:
Fascinating. FASCINATING.
Obviously the gendering of abuse and victimhood and presumption of male guilt as per. feminist doctrine was hugely problematic here. Moving on to a humanistic, non discriminatory and fact based understanding of abuse and victimhood is massive step forward for the publication.. It was also going to be very problematic if the publication was going to be continuing to publish feminists that were lying about abuse. Legal, social and ideological misandry and male disposibility in the culture are going to have be discussed further down the track as the publishers of the publication become more aware of it. I think… Read more »
Please inform us of anything, one single quality, that you think constitutes a part of being a good man – that does not also apply to being a good woman. Maybe I’m being too simplistic but ideally the only one quality that a good man has that a good woman doesn’t is that he is a man and she is not. But as has been said with the way “man” and “woman” have been constructed there some traits that some believe only apply to either a good man (like giving one’s life up for a woman) or a good woman… Read more »
What’s funny Danny is that that’s exactly where Tom and I started. We would make a site for men, because men are men and they are not women. It seemed simple enough. Who knew?
Yes it should be that simple but Lisa when are things actually simple?
Its difficult for this publication to use a PHMT argument when the publication has been tirelessly promoting feminist myths about reality that create patriarchy.
Examples.
Every time there was a HS article published and supported by the feminists that think this conversation is about them that cast men as human doings, and women as human happened upon’s this social system that feminists call “ze patriarchy” was reinforced.
Ever time the lie “men can stop rape” ir the feminist depiction of rape culture is repeated here, this social system is reinforced.
“Good”, “Men”, and “Project” all seem to have stirred controversy at one time or another. Sure, those are all interesting to dissect, but isn’t about time we blew the lid off the really controversial part: The! Why THE Good Men Project? What’s with the definite article? You don’t think there might be other good men projects out there, or other good projects, or man projects, or men projecting good? Sure, you abbreviate it GMP like it’s all humble and indefinite, but anywhere it’s official, you pump it up with “the”. Just look at the banner at the top of the… Read more »
I guess Sean Parker wasn’t there.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1285016/quotes?qt=qt1307232
HAH! Believe it or not Marcus, every time I get to thinking that my job is too important I realize that I am the sole defender of the “The”. Now my cover is blown! I wish I had a better reason for liking it other than the be cause I like it. I like being definitive. I like being proprietary. I like the fact that “the” is a simple word, a word you might find in any story. And yet — David — that was one of my favorite lines in the movie. One of the best decisions they made.… Read more »
entertaining post, a great read
+1
Well, Lisa, i came here from AvFM expecting to be nauseated by another ignorant article. While I’m not attracted to most of the white knight proscriptions on this website I found your above article reasonable and relevant, and I would add more pertinent than Tom’s response. Why more pertinent? Because you address the “women and children first” issue that worries many contemporary males.
Thanks for attempting to address the hot concerns raised, you did well.
Thank you John. I was really aghast when I tried to put myself in the shoes of those men. I really can’t imagine it. That has got to stop.
Appreciate your stopping by to say so.
Well now I had to go read the original article over at AVfM. To me the whole thing boils down to AVfM saying “I figured the Good Men thing was about saying what men had to do for women, but now I’m not so sure though still suspicious”. I think one of the most significant lines was therefore, in recent times that Ms. Hickey’s “voice” has begun to express a great deal of compassion for men; not for men that are being what women want them to be, but for men as they are outside of their utility; men demonized;… Read more »
Thanks David. Yes, I did see this as an olive branch, which I was willing to accept with my reply. When you talk about how some men like to dedicate themselves to women — well — it’s probably in part for what women give back. When it is an equal partnership, it is truly wonderful. Why would anyone want to go ruin that by declaring war? —— (*) The thing worse that shill that Paul called me was “lying feminist scum”. Which got me riled up for about 5 minutes. But now, when I go do speaking engagements, and talk… Read more »
Lisa – some are still trying to figure out is it “Darth Hickey” or “Lisa Skywalker”?
Just be grateful that no one has as yet decided you are just a drone, and made it C3PHickey or R2-Lisa-D2!
May the force be with you!P^)
Thanks MediaHound! That’s the *really* interesting thing about talking about goodness — how easy it is to be held up as bad — yeah, Darth Vader bad, even — just for having the conversation about goodness. It’s been fascinating real-time looks at social behavior, for sure.
Lisa – It is not just the conversation of goodness that is considered to be you meddling with the Dark Side! It’s putting the words “Good” and “Men” on the same page! Yikes – the galactic meme is in danger – and no Wookiees or Ewoks in sight to save the day! P^) Besides – all of the Star Wars films are gender biased and hopelessly sexist as the majority of charters are presumed male – and some are still wondering how do you sex a Wookie – and for that matter a Droid! P^) You need to be cast… Read more »
Haha, that’s just what I thought when you were talking about how to define “good”. I thought, well at least they get to define “project”. And I think you have from time to time. It’s the least powerful of the three but it still packs a punch.
Project, to me, always meant this whole big thing that we’re building. The combined effect of over 5,000 stories of or about men.
It *never* meant to me that *men themselves* were a project, something that had to be changed. What’s weird is that some men see it that way. It’s too bad, really. We really set out to celebrate male goodness, just to do so honestly, forthrightly. Men can be loved and valued just for being men. That is enough. That is good.
There is a joke that goes like this:
Men marry hoping their wives never change,
Women marry hoping they can change their husbands completely.
So you may have hit a hidden nerve with the whole project name,because so many gals take on a bad-boy as a project to try to fix him,then complain endlessly to the nice friend zoned male.
So there is your hidden resentment there,or part of it.
Glad to be of asistance
Thank you freebird. I can see that now.
Drat, well — don’t you go changing, ok? And thanks for sticking around to help build this thing.
Great post, Lisa – I really like your point that it’s in the expectations, and the context, and the fact that society and history have given men and women different issues. For me personally, I’d like to see us deconstruct that into what are *human* issues. But, of course, that’s my place – and this, again, is the Good Men Project, not the Good Person Project. I applaud it for that – a place men can, as you say, pick from traditional gender stereotypes if they so choose, but *also*, and maybe more importantly, learn that they don’t have to.… Read more »
There are certainly things I like being about a woman that I wouldn’t want to lose — so too should men, imo, be able to keep what they like about being a man. And what’s cool is seeing men describe all shades of they both like and dislike about being a man.
See, yeah, but we have to remember that it’s not traits like being strong or a protector that are feminine or masculine. It’s either taking from gender stereotypes or from outside them – which really means breaking them down so we can determine without them. In addition is the point you make: it’s the context and expectations, too. What is difficult about being a man as society explains it to us that we’d change? What would we keep?
“And because any definition of good is often defined at the moment where there is an issue, a conflict, a moral dilemma, when an important choice has to be made — there will, in fact, be a difference in what is seen as a good man and what is seen as a good women as long as there are gender differences in the social constructs of the day”
Amazing piece. I’ve said this before Lisa, this is messy work, hard work, but it’s work of great importance. This is a beautiful piece.
Thanks Julie. I also like your view that we “act as candles and mirrors for each other, lighting the way and reflecting back goodness.” Not easy in the least, but we have to try.
Yes we do. And you clearly do so for me as do the writers here. I’m grateful for that. It’s sappy but it’s true.