Dan Griffin thinks there’s a place for single-gender spaces, so long as the people involved are genuinely of good will.
Question: Do men deserve to have a place where the whole conversation is about how we as men are trying how to figure out how the hell to live our lives as men that we – and those who love us – can be proud of?
Answer: Absolutely yes! And that means it is a conversation that should not be allowed to be co-opted by women (or men) who have other agendas. Yes, I said it. You are welcome to participate but if your focus is not on advancing the conversation then perhaps you should find another place to hang out. Cyber-space is really really big!
Before I say what I am about to say, let me state unequivocally and unabashedly that I am a feminist. What that means to me may not be what it means to you. For me it means something very radical and quite simple – that men and women are inherently equal. Different but equal. It also means that I believe we live in a society that has not been built upon that equality and the impact of that permeates our relationships, our communities, and many other aspects of our lives. That does NOT mean, however, that men are not also deeply affected by the way this society has been set up. Women do not have the market-cornered on existential suffering – that is something that transcends race, gender, socioeconomic status, and any of the other labels and characteristics we have decided to ascribe to human beings’ value. I am so tired of the response that we, men, get sometimes when we have the audacity to imply that women can also be part of the problem. Sorry but it is true. Unequivocally. Irrefutably. If you cannot admit that then you are not ready to be a part of the solution.
There are, however, only two types of feminists in my mind – the ones who haven’t done their own personal work and the ones who have (and continue to do so) – the actual type of theory is less important. What does that mean? I mean the emotional, psychological, and spiritual work that gives us a completely different insight into the human condition. That is the process Tom is referring to with all of those people gathering in church basements and schools and other alcoves all over the country. There are amazing men and women gathering in those places that I feel honored to call friends and family. I, too, am part of those men’s meetings where men are transformed from little boys to men. There is work that we do in those meetings that we could never do in mixed-meetings. These meetings help prepare us to then be able to do the hard work with the women in our lives. We need that private space. Maybe that is another website, then – with different guidelines and policies. Or maybe GMP wants to step back and re-evaluate how it is meeting its mission. You can’t be everything to everyone. Maybe the Huffington Post approach doesn’t work. I don’t know. I do know that we NEED that space and right now GMP does not seem to be it.
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You would be hard-pressed to find a woman or man who has done/is doing their own personal emotional and spiritual work who does not get how much men are hurting and being hurt by the same gendered logic that permeates our society with all of its contradictions. I know many women like this and they understand that men need to do their work and have a safe and supportive place to do it. They also get – and this is important – that they DON’T KNOW what men need or what that work has to look like. Finally, they also understand that a lot of that work has to be for men only. These are the women I would lay down in front of a truck for. I love these women. They are powerful and grounded. Sometimes, they really kick my ass. I listen to them.
What I see all over GMP from men and women, feminists and the men’s rights guys, and many others is an inability – or lack of willingness – to own the feelings driving their reactions and their assertions. Some of them have no idea how much feeling is defining their perception. Of course that is most of the polemics in our society as a whole. I do not tend to trust that kind of perception. That is not the world I live in today nor the kind of world I want to live in. Have you ever read some of these posts and comments and seen how much fear is driving what people are writing and saying? A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. I see a lot of scared and hurt feminists reacting often in self-righteousness and arrogance. The same goes for the men’s rights guys. And a lot of other people, too. I try hard not to do that – and if I do (as I have done) I try to then own it. That is what is most important to me – are you willing to create a space for vulnerability and authenticity in the conversation? I know that is what Tom and many others seek to do and they are the ones I pay attention to.
I am pretty clear about my focus and my mission and how I am impacting this conversation about what it means to be a good man. I do trainings and speak all over the country about rethinking and redesigning the way we provide mental health and addiction services for men. Women were not going to lead this battle – and should not be expected to. They are not also going to direct it but they are more than welcome to participate. When I do those trainings with my partner, Rick, we are pretty blunt about some of the issues that men face and the role that women can play in those problems – and the solution. We focus on depathologizing men and masculinity – we put it in a social context – most of men’s ignorant and harmful behavior is a result from how they have been raised and their attempts to live by the “rules for being a man.” That does not make certain behaviors acceptable but it does create a space for understanding and compassion. It allows us to talk about homophobia, abuse and violence (both experienced and perpetrated,) privilege and entitlement, detached fathering, sexism, and pornography. But it also allows us to talk about the sexual abuse of boys and men, body image, creating healthy relationships and challenging the bullshit myth out there that men don’t know how to do relationships or don’t care about them, creating a space for men’s grief, and helping men to realize that there is nothing wrong with wanting power and control rather it is how we go about it. Our whole mission is to help men feel good about being men and help them realize they have a choice in who they can be. When we help men heal it automatically helps women and children.
Tom says this in his post:
In the end I think we all want the same thing: a new kind of macho in which men are allowed to express themselves as fully formed human beings who change diapers, are capable of intimacy, do meaningful work, and aspire to goodness in whatever way they define it.
What I think is missing from Tom’s statement – though I believe it to be part of his and GMP’s mission – is that part of the new macho is men co-creating a space of equality for women with women. One where we are willing to honestly and openly look at homophobia, sexism, privilege and entitlement, and some of the little gremlins that hide in the darkest corners of masculinity. But what so many women and men, particularly some feminists, often miss is that men do not just create suffering for others – they are suffering. We are suffering as a result of trying to live up to these rules that are so limiting and dehumanizing. That suffering cannot be ignored, minimized, or devalued. I don’t like when we miss the human aspect to all of this. Is suffering a phenomenon relegated to one gender or race? Absolutely not. It is when we tell the stories of our joy and our pain that we all realize that we are one. That is the beauty of the Twelve Step communities – at our best because we are able to touch that place in amazing ways.
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Here is the deal, as I see it. There are men and women out there who want us to be able to transcend the limitations of the boxes that society tries to put us in. Tom Matlack would be one of those men and the Good Men Project, at its best, is a vehicle for being able to do that. Or at least that has always been what I understood it to be about. There are also men and women out there who would rather pretend that it is women against men – that it is a zero-sum game. And, of course, there are the women and men out there who don’t care. They are happy in their worlds, following the rules of being a man or a woman, not realizing they even have a choice.
In the end, I do not think the issue is really about men having private conversations. It seems more that women – and some men – don’t trust us men to have the really tough conversations. That somehow if men have private conversations we are simply going to protect our power and our privilege and avoid responsibility for looking at the darker side of masculinity. Not the darker side of men but masculinity. As in – how men are raised to be men but not who we are inherently. That is such a great disservice to us, men, who understand at an atomic level that who we are in this world is severely limited if we do not have the tough conversations. I have ALWAYS seen GMP as a place that wants to have the really tough conversations and honor all of the different points of view. Our freedom and peace of mind as men are inextricably bound to that of women, there is no doubt. We have to have our sacred spaces just for men just as there need to be sacred spaces just for women just as there need to be sacred spaces for men and women. I believe it is in our suffering, our efforts to transcend that suffering, and telling the truth about who we are that we all come together. Or at least we can. Our liberation as human beings is bound together. That is the conversation I want to be part of – and in that conversation all are welcome.
Photo—Group of men from Shutterstock
About Dan Griffin
This concept of having the “tough conversations” might be a real roadblock for those who don’t wear their man pants lightly. Tough situations force us into a role as tough individuals, which excludes conversation. You keep silent or you do one-way communication – you tell stories, you pass on wisdom, you assert authority, you chew ass. The toughest thing to do is what makes you traditionally weak – you open up and you share.
Great Point! You are absolutely right – which is why we have to learn how to have those conversations with compassion and understanding. You might be amazed at what we have been able to get men to talk openly about and while they are in treatment for addiction (oftentimes not wanting to be there.)
Do men deserve to have a place where the whole conversation is about how we as men are trying how to figure out how the hell to live our lives as men that we – and those who love us – can be proud of?
What gets me is that someone is even asking such a question in the first place. “Do men deserve…?” Feels pretty condescending….
When we help men heal it automatically helps women and children.
Nice framing. I think I’ve seen it framed the other way around where it’s a matter of helping women (first) and then that help will trickle down to men.
Nice one Dan.
Nice to hear from you Danny! You are right – it is condescending! It’s fear and even understandably so because some “men only” environments have been exclusive and reinforced separation from community and protecting power and privilege. A point I will probably be taken to task for as it is missing from my post
It’s fear and even understandably so because some “men only” environments have been exclusive and reinforced separation from community and protecting power and privilege.
Well considering that I don’t get to judge all women only spaces based on some of the ones where anti-sentiment were nurtured I think they can come down off their high horses long enough to admit that they don’t get to judge all men only spaces by the way some of them have been conducted.
I concur Danny!
The article is contradictory.
“Answer: Absolutely yes! And that means it is a conversation that should not be allowed to be co-opted by women (or men) who have other agendas. Yes, I said it. You are welcome to participate but if your focus is not on advancing the conversation then perhaps you should find another place to hang out. Cyber-space is really really big!”
So women are welcome it is respect for the topic of discussion that is important.
“There is work that we do in those meetings that we could never do in mixed-meetings.”
Women are detrimental to the discussion by the mere fact that they are women.
Personally, I support male only and female only spaces. I support freedom of association and the right not to associate.
I do not see it as contradictory. You write: “Women are detrimental to the discussion by the mere fact that they are women.” It is interesting that you choose to interpret it that way. I see it another way. Women are not detrimental to the conversation – that implies the conversation that we have with women present is not of value which is not what I am saying at all. I am merely saying there is a difference when women are there and to not have women there has its own value. Different, not better, per se.
I agree, allowing it slide into soft bigotry like that is not needed. We’re better than the haters.
Thanks, Dan, For not pulling any punches. I appreciate the openness. As someone in recovery I can relate to the difference in vibe a men’s AA meeting has vs. a mixed-gender one. Either offers something important, too.
The attitude of “Should we permit men to have a private discussion? well, only if they convince us that it benefits women” absolutely reeks of female privilege… and it’s surprisingly common among the ‘fair-minded’ feminist blogs and forums out there that claim to embrace men. (As long as they know their place….)
“Before I say what I am about to say, let me state unequivocally and unabashedly that I am a feminist. What that means to me may not be what it means to you. For me it means something very radical and quite simple – that men and women are inherently equal. Different but equal. It also means that I believe we live in a society that has not been built upon that equality and the impact of that permeates our relationships, our communities, and many other aspects of our lives. “
Granted you “qualified” you feminist view but nonetheless inserted that you are a “feminist” and for me, that is an automatic turn off. You want us guys to be honest, well that’s what I’m being. Yup, my myopic view of feminism may not be that which you described and yup, my taste for “feminism” is sour at best but it is what it is. Personally I’m tired of the attempts to redefine feminism when it’s not what you and others want it to be.
I’ve seen countless responses at GMP that people hate “labels” but when it comes to being a “feminist” … that label is okay simply because the label is “qualified” in some way and doesn’t completely resemble that which feminists outside these walls truly represent.
In my opinion, a place for men will never be a place for men if there is the slightest hint of feminism. Yup, as I said, I have a distaste for feminism and as you say “… and many others is an inability – or lack of willingness – to own the feelings driving their reactions and their assertions.” So here I am, I am owning my feelings and where these feeling come from and accordingly, I, as a man, can’t accept any form of “feminism” no matter how it’s pained to look. It appears that the GMP feminist want to re-write what feminism is and it’s not working. Am I saying you can only have credibility if you’re a card carrying “masculist” or “MRA?” Absolutely not. But the truth is, masculist groups and/or MRM’s do address the needs of men far more then any feminist group.
Look, I’m not nearly as educated as many who write/respond in this forum but I can tell you, I’m a simple guy that hangs with simple men. Men that are struggling on countless levels. GMP can analyze, throw theories and history until the cows come home but the common Joe couldn’t care less. He’s feeling it in his real life of joblessness, homelessness, helplessness and family (lack of). And now, here at GMP wee are being asked to accept the new image of feminism? The progressive feminist (aka GMP feminist) wants us to just open our arms and hearts to that which has screed us over for 30+ years simply because a few have some disagreements with true feminism? Won’t happen, at least not with me. Okay, let’s try this, rather then trying to sway the men who have been behind the 8ball for 30+ years to see feminism in a different light, how about going to the real feminist movements and make changes. Get THEM to change their way and when men see these changes happen, maybe guys like me will listen. Take the energy shown in here and apply it to the organizations that stand and lobby in Washington.
…… just my opinion
“…the truth is, masculist groups and/or MRM’s do address the needs of men far more then any feminist group.”
What they do is feed on the bitterness of men and reinforce it as a “need” they’re “addressing.” I’m convinced that it’s mostly a pseudomovement, and that any good faith efforts it had at the beginning have long since been reduce to lip service in the drive to demonize a strawwoman feminism. Any gains men make from such a movement will come only at the expense of women, other men, or society at large.
I’ll be the first to admit that MRM’s are far from “together” but what the existing MRM’s do is not what you claim. Feminism as it’s been for 30+ years, the feminism that’s distroyed men on all levels should be demonized for what it’s done or not done. The groups I belong to are resource groups for me. They provide information that isn’t seen in main stream media. The truth about VAWA wouldn’t have ever been discussed here at GMP had it not been for MRA’s. So called “masculist” groups have afforded many men to let their feelings out, let their feelings be known to other men.
Feed on bitterness? How about this, help men with their bitterness?
Feminism is not a “stawwomen.” It’s a reality and the feminism that exists outside the walls of GMP is still dangerious.
“The truth shall set you free.” When The Innocence Project frees men who have been in prison for decades for crimes they did not commit it is serving a valuable function. The Innocence Project uses truth to set people free. Whatever faults the MRM movement might have, it remains an arena where taboo truths have a chance of getting an airing, despite the orthodox government-university-NGO’s heavily-funded efforts to further ideology-based social engineering agenda. I wish to see online publications give more space in articles to facts (broadly researched, not cherry-picked), to truth, and less space in articles to opinion and utopian projection.
Hi Tom and Pwlsax –
First, I do not care if someone calls me a feminist or not – I believe in the inherent equality between men and women and that our society does not honor that or do a very good job of demonstrating that – to the detriment of both men and women.
thanks to you both for being upfront about where you are coming from. I hear the conversation between the two of you and to me it is obvious that there is a middle ground – which is where I am always trying to get. Feminists have screwed up a lot and so have MRAs – both have also done some good. At their best both groups could learn a lot from each other and even – as crazy as it sounds – support one another. It’d be nice to see that happen.
I do not mean to be condscending but so much of the comments on GMP are people just barking at each other and talking past one another with no interest in dialogue. You two are actually close to being able to make a meaningful connection. I hope it can happen
I wish I had the energy for it right now. I just saw this.
You’re optimistic in the extreme if you think these 2 groups of men can support each other. I do think pro-feminist men can learn from anti-feminists as long as they express themselves frankly and boldly, but I see so little good faith among the MRM. It’s all about keeping up the noise and killing debate.
Reading Jack Donovan here on GMP helped clarify a lot of my own beliefs and what I don’t believe about men. But there was never going to be a dialogue, because an ideologue will not dialogue with you. Jack’s message is that men impose their will on others or they become worthless, and it’s typical boilerplate MRA – seductive to men who feel powerless but deeply troubling to men who are not all about power.
Tom B, I do have some ideas about your posting that I hope are not just barking. I’ll come back later and bring them along.
Hi Dan,
How can I contact you directly?
The marxism-inspired theory that the notion “gender” (which is described as a social construction) should replace the “sex” of a person was a 1970s vogue. The thesis was disproved by science (origin of sex definition in the fetus). Because social engineering workers prefer to have the public believe in social theories (regardless of whether they are inaccurate) the “gender” terminology has nevertheless been promoted by bureaucracies. We need not be obedient to the bureaucrats who want to engineer our minds. Le’s use the correct word “sex,” and use gender ONLY when we want to talk about theories about “social constructions” and for the term’s proper use: grammar.
Dan writes: “In the end, I do not think the issue is really about men having private conversations. It seems more that women – and some men – don’t trust us men to have the really tough conversations. That somehow if men have private conversations we are simply going to protect our power and our privilege and avoid responsibility for looking at the darker side of masculinity. Not the darker side of men but masculinity. As in – how men are raised to be men but not who we are inherently. That is such a great disservice to us, men, who understand at an atomic level that who we are in this world is severely limited if we do not have the tough conversations. I have ALWAYS seen GMP as a place that wants to have the really tough conversations and honor all of the different points of view. Our freedom and peace of mind as men are inextricably bound to that of women, there is no doubt. We have to have our sacred spaces just for men just as there need to be sacred spaces just for women just as there need to be sacred spaces for men and women. I believe it is in our suffering, our efforts to transcend that suffering, and telling the truth about who we are that we all come together. Or at least we can. Our liberation as human beings is bound together. That is the conversation I want to be part of – and in that conversation all are welcome.”
To ALL men everywhere, I say wow. I for one, as a woman marvel at all the ways you contribute, the things you are responsible for and how difficult it is to truly be a man. It’s not easy being a man and I want to acknowledge you and say thank you for all you do; including the work you do to improve yourselves because in that we as women are blessed and may even improve along with you. Now, I’m speaking about real men here, not those who avoid responsibility and sidestep contributing. I speak of the givers not the takers.
I could not do what you do. I’ve tried and stepped outside my arena into the male role on occasion and found it beyond daunting. I am not your average woman, all feminine, soft and fancy, resting like some poor weak thing on the arm of my man. I am, as my wonderful husband puts it, a strong woman capable of accomplishing anything I set my mind to (and have for many things), but even I know my limits. I am not able to be what my husband is. We each have our own things to excel at and yes, there are some traditionally male things I do well with, but I am a woman. And as such, I appreciate the things men do, for me as an individual, for women in general and for the world as a whole. Now do you guys do it perfectly? Ah no, but then again, neither do I. All I can say is thanks to all of you who step up and do what it is that you do best, being men. And for the shortcomings, well he who is without sin cast the first stone. I’ll complain when I get it all right myself, okay?
Husbands, fathers, brothers, soldiers, firefighters, police officers, leaders, trailblazers, discoverers, health workers: providers and protectors all. I would not be the woman I am today if it were not for what men have contributed. Thank you. I know I risk being thrown out of my gender as a traitor, insert chuckle here, but I would be more than remiss if I didn’t say thank you, the way my DAD taught me to when someone has done something I’m grateful for.
I wholeheartedly agree, Dan. “Our freedom and peace of mind as men are inextricably bound to that of women, there is no doubt.” I for one am grateful for this.