Clarisse Thorn discusses the darker side of the pickup artist subculture in America.
This article originally appeared at ClarisseThorn.com.
UPDATE, September 2012: The Field Report that I linked below was just modified in response to criticism. (The author showed up at my blog and talked about it with us here at Comment #80.) I still have serious problems with the author’s attitudes, but I will admit that the post is better than it used to be; he’s trying to build a career, so perhaps he took my point about the fact that asshole PUAs will be frozen out of the market. The excerpts that I quote below were accurate when I quoted them, and I stand by everything I said.
When I wrote my awesome book Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser, I did my best to present a relatively balanced picture of the pickup artist (PUA) subculture. I tried to show good facets, bad facets, and shades-of-grey facets. Perhaps inevitably, a lot of people — some of whom I respect — felt that I was over-generous to this strange mix of analytical nerds, hedonists, entrepreneurs, and misogynist assholes. Others felt that I was over-judgmental.
Many feminists claim that the culture, mores, and/or tactics within the PUA community encourage rape. In my book, I quote one feminist who said: “I’m just going to come right out and say it: PUAs rape women through coercion and manipulation. Full stop.” I think that’s an overblown blanket statement rooted in a simplistic view of the community. But also in my book, I described a written report from one PUA in which he basically documented a date rape. And after I published the book, a reader sent me a link to one of the more unsettling PUA forum threads I’ve seen (thanks Jon).
I would’ve broken this thread down in the book if I’d seen it before publication. I didn’t, so I’m breaking it down for you now. I do want to start with two important caveats:
A. This does not represent all PUAs. Some guys really do get into the community because they’re having trouble figuring out answers to questions like, “How do I ask that cute girl in class for her number?” This kind of thing is, however, one reason that lots of guys who found decent advice in parts of the community won’t associate themselves with the community as a whole.
B. PUAs are not the only people who do this. PUAs did not invent this. Other people are doubtless out doing this. PUAs are just the ones who have jargon for it and document it publicly on message boards.
Here’s the thread. (It’s posted on the forum for Real Social Dynamics — for those of you who read The Game, that’s Tyler Durden a.k.a. Owen Cook’s company.) If you usually stop reading when there’s a trigger warning, you should probably stop reading now.
Let the games begin:
Thread title: Lie your way inside a womans vagina (People with morals DO NOT READ)
First sentence: When i pull girls and fuck them, i cheat, i lie, and i steal (their booze). And i feel good about it, cause in the end girls like to be outsmarted and physically and mentally dominated.
We’re off to a good start, and by “good start” I mean “this thread already makes me want to shoot myself in the face.” Sidenote: when I see words like “dominated” used in this context, I feel the immediate need to give everyone involved a lecture on S&M 101. Yes, some women are sexually submissive, but not all; also, submissive women still want to be respected, not generally treated like garbage. And since we’re talking about submissive heterosexual ladies, I’ll throw in a link to a piece of mine about men and feminism and dominance, too.
Onward! Next, the writer describes his main type of lady target: The retarded, drunk and fucking hot 18 years old. … Dont let the friends see you.
Pick someone drunk and inexperienced, and isolate her from her friends? I’m amazed how blatant this dude is about being an asshole. People, this is one reason we keep an eye on our drunk friends at nightclubs. While it’s not your fault if your friend gets in trouble, sometimes there’s a chance that you could provide support at a crucial time.
Also! A broader note on the nature of abuse: abusers very commonly seek to break their targets’ social connections.
Pace it a little bit so a vibe actually forms but never let her time to think, otherwise shea going to see her friends, and you’re done. Once you pulled her away from the friends, made out, and have a somewhat chill vibe going on (takes 15 -30mins), you say “this bar sucks, lets go to another bar”.
Based on this self-reported evidence, this guy is somewhat charming. Charming people can still be assholes and/or predators. And people, this is one reason that if a friend disappears at a nightclub, even for 15 minutes, we make sure we know where she is.
If she wants to know where it is, you say 2 min walk. … Once youre out, walk 2 blocks away from the bar. get in a cab and go to your house. If she objects, say its too cold/hot to walk./ Its just 5 min/i just wanna kiss/ can we kiss?/ ignore what she says and physically force her. If you cant verbally and physically dominate a drunk 18 yo girl that likes you, please kill yourself.
Outright lying in order to get a girl home is not an uncommon PUA tactic. It’s happened to me; I wrote about it in Confessions. (Spoiler: the PUA did not succeed in his goal.)
To get inside your house, tell her you need to get money before you guys go to the bar.
To all the women who might find themselves in this situation: If a guy tells you you’re going one place and you mysteriously end up in another with zero discussion, then firstly, let me tell you that it is not your fault. You don’t deserve to be dealing with this.
I suspect that for a lot of people in this moment, the big question would be “How the fuck do I get out of this in the lowest-stress way?” So, here’s a tactic for you: “Okay, you go up and get the money. I’ll stay here in the cab.”
Later in the thread, a PUA actually asks for advice on what to do if a woman does this. The original writer says that he would stay in the cab and make it a waiting game, basically. But it’s a cab, so he can’t make it too much of a waiting game, and you always have the option of saying “Look dude, I think I’m just gonna take this cab back to meet my friends at the original bar.”
Once inside, quickly take off your coat and shoes and put on some music, dim lights and pour yourseld a drink. In 1 min or less. Start making out, tell her youre gonna make her visit. Quickly take her to your room and if she says anything while you take off all your clothes, tell her to shut the fuck up, and make her go on her knees and suck your dick. Only worrt about taking off her clothes once youre fully naked and shes jerking you off or sucking your dick.
Shes young, shes drunk, she likes you.she wont resist. Or not a lot.
“She won’t resist. Or not a lot.” Christ. I wonder how this guy sleeps at night.
There’s more, but that’s all the important bits. Oh, and then there’s this comment from an instructor at Real Social Dynamics, responding to criticism of the original post:
We’re here to fuck girls not assuage hypothetical psychological wounds and/or better society. I’m frankly a little sick of KJ moralizing and hand wringing about this shit. Let’s not sugar coat what it is we are doing here too much. We’re FUCKING WOMEN.
Jargon time! KJ stands for “keyboard jockey,” a PUA term for a dude who does nothing but read PUA material and never puts it into practice. So basically, this instructor is saying that anyone who has a problem with that post is an inexperienced newbie.
Let’s not sugar coat what’s going on here too much. By any definition, tricking a drunk girl into coming home with you, and then forcibly having sex with her, is date rape.
Tyler Durden — again, the creator of Real Social Dynamics — also left a positive comment supporting the writer of that piece.
The gentleman who emailed me the link commented:
This points to an institutional problem. I found it especially depressing because a lot of what I had seen from RSD prior to that seemed more about honest communication and authenticity than other pick up stuff. So much for that.
There are several useful morals to be found here:
1. Just in case we needed it, this is more evidence that rape is often a crime with a lot of institutional/social support. When feminists talk about this, we call it “rape culture.” And why yes, before you ask, I have a chapter about rape culture and its PUA intersections in my book.
2. When relationships are framed as adversarial, and the only goal is “fucking women,” and ethics are dismissed as “handwringing” … then even a company that might otherwise be kind of decent will end up supporting awful stuff. Real Social Dynamics may, indeed, generally promote more honest communication and authenticity than other PUA companies. But as long as having sex is framed as an at-all-costs goal, this type of stuff will creep in. The only cure is to work towards reframing sex as a mutual journey, in which treating the other person like a person is utterly necessary.
3. On the bright side, PUA companies lose clients because of stuff like this. Decent men (which, I maintain, is most men) stop buying products from companies that are obviously full of assholes. As dating advice for men becomes more mainstream and acceptable, I’m hoping this will mean that unethical PUA companies will be relegated to a ghetto of “those guys are terrible people and no one serious pays attention to them.” (On the down side, they may actually develop a niche for that. But we can’t win ‘em all.)
Photo courtesy of Nicola since 1972 — Flickr
About Clarisse Thorn
That’s pretty goddamn disturbing, but just one gripe:
“Just in case we needed it, this is more evidence that rape is often a crime with a lot of institutional/social support. When feminists talk about this, we call it “rape culture.” And why yes, before you ask, I have a chapter about rape culture and its PUA intersections in my book.”
Often? It’s evidence that rape is sometimes a crime with institutional support. There’d have to be a little more evidence to support a conclusion as to how commonly this is actually the case.
Yuck. Just – yuck. That guy is a sexual predator who is using PUA theory to justify his actions but he’s no different than a guy who attacks women in dark alleys. PUA gives him a community, a forum, and a philosophy to make it all seem ok. It is common for rapists to justify their actions by telling themselves “she wanted it” “she was asking for it ” “she was just a dumb whore” etc. I am not saying PUA creates rapists but this is an example of how it can encourage the minority of men with those tendencies. PUA’s should be condemning guys like this yet it seems like the community accepts this point of view, which is not surprising since many PUA’s have such a deep underlying contempt for women.
If this kind of behaviour was universally accepted on PUA forums he probably wouldn’t have written the disclaimer telling people not to call him out on his BS.
The owner of the company and a prominent instructor both complimented him and defended him against criticism. This behavior may not be “universally accepted” but when the leading lights of the community praise it, it’s pretty damn close.
If the page is still up there then that points to a problem all in itself (any decent admin would have killed it, banned him and called the police). I’m just pointing out that if he’s warning people not to give out to him it means he’s caught at least some flak over it.
I’m the first to say that there are different types of PUAs (a lot of my book is about that, actually). But when guys like this are running around PUA fora and catching barely any flak for their BS, then pointing out that a few outliers are saying “wait you shouldn’t do that” isn’t going to help your case. It may not be a community-wide problem but it’s certainly a problem in that sub-community and probably extends past that.
Well, we can say the same thing about feminism and folks like Amanda Marcotte and others who espouse nothing but hate. You don’t see anyone calling them out or giving them any flak, and they do far more damage than this random dude.
This is, without a doubt, disgusting. I threw up a little in my mouth reading this. Makes things a lot more difficult for us nice shy guys. Start getting pecked at by the friends, or get looked at like a creeper predator, and then we lose a chance to meet a girl. THIS is the kind of guy who can be called a creep, not the awkward guy in the corner. This is a creep.
I have noticed a lot of interest in this site on the PUA phenomena, and I enjoy reading some of the outrageous, but often uncomfortably truthful ideas on the PUA sites. One thing that comes across again and again in PUA philosophy, is that good looking, self assured Alpha males don’t NEED this stuff to get a woman, either as a one night stand or as a long term relationship. The whole idea of PUA, is that it is to be used by second tier men in looks and confidence (betas) as some kind tool to help them get SOMETHING. PUA even accepts that there is a class of men, omegas, who simply can’t be helped and are going to be alone forever. The advice I regularly see on the GMP for guys that are struggling to find any semblance of sex or romance in their lives is always the same. Get out there, be yourself, be a nice guy, be confident, be a good man. But I have yet to see anyone write back and say “Wow! That advice worked great! I’m getting phone numbers left and right now!” On the other hand, on PUA sites, I see guys writing that all the time. Is there some kind of middle ground here? Can’t some effective PUA techniques, which are all admittedly a form of manipulation just like all advice on interpersonal relationships, be softened somehow or at least be presented in a way that doesn’t make every practitioner look like some roofie dropping maniac?
I think the problem with “Be yourself” is that most guys interpret this as, carry on doing what you have always been doing.
Most people are not themselves, they present a lot of masks to the world. They do things like, pretend to be richer/more successful/ cleverer ect. They try and hide their failings. Even worse, most people will hide their views and opinions, rather than make waves by saying what they really think. Often because they are worried that people won’t like them.
Be yourself means stop doing that shit. It means work out who you are, and what you want. Then go out and get it. If you have a different opinion, say it. If you are broke at the moment, be honest. If you are good at something be honest about that too. Don’t be fake. Being yourself takes courage, and that is sexy.
I could not agree more. Take it from a woman who is pursued by men pretty much everywhere I go. (There’s no way to say that without sounding conceited, so perhaps I am a tiny bit – ha!) Having the balls to discuss your world views is much more of a turn-on for smart, beautiful women. It says two things: 1) That you are intelligent enough to even have your own world views; and 2) That you view her as being intelligent enough to have developed her own viewpoint. Nothing is sexier to me than a healthy and playful debate with a man who respects me and recognizes (and matches) my level of intelligence.
If all you’re looking for is unchallenging, shallow sex with an empty-headed, doe-eyed piece of eye candy, may I suggest buying a blow-up doll? She will keep you out of prison (at least for date rape) and she’s always a sure thing. Oh, and she isn’t someone else’s daughter. All PUA’s need to realize that all 18 yr old “women” are still some other man’s little girl. And he may have a gun. Be smart, be safe and above all, make it mutually beneficial and fun for her. You can never be accused of a crime if you follow that advice.
There is a vast difference between using self help methods to learn to come across as a more confident, attractive person who can be successful with women, and training yourself to be more effective at getting drunk young women in an isolated spot where you can force them to have sex with you whether they want to or not.
Amen to that. I’ve often thought of trying tactics to help raise my confidence, but if they are drunk then I don’t want them. I ONLY want fully consenting activities.
@ J P McMahon
There are so many different aspects of this piece that I wanted to discuss that it’s hard to find a place to start, but this is as good a place as any. I don’t think there’s much argument that the example above was rape. Other examples might be rapey, but there is little grey area there.
There is nothing wrong with only wanting sex from someone. I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong with targeting someone younger, but of legal age. I don’t have a problem with targeting drinking individuals. When we use the term drunk, we already prejudice the conversation. People who drink will lose inhibitions and still retain their agency after or while drinking. It’s only after they reach a certain level of intoxication that they can no longer reasonably consent. So in answer to your question, yes, but is that what the PUAs actually mean or are they simply saying find a girl who can’t consent.
“Is there some kind of middle ground here? Can’t some effective PUA techniques, which are all admittedly a form of manipulation just like all advice on interpersonal relationships, be softened somehow or at least be presented in a way that doesn’t make every practitioner look like some roofie dropping maniac?”
John, Most PUA material is NOT about getting a woman’s interest when she is loaded. That is just the example used by the author of this piece. It is just about getting a woman interested. The reality is that the social milieus where one can meet available women, often have booze available. This can be part of the strategy, but it doesn’t have to be. Drinks can also be a bit of “Dutch Courage” for the guy to get his “game” going on, when normally he might be too self conscious, or shy. Honestly, sometimes I think women are down on PUA because it might allow a guy to date outside his league.
“Pick someone drunk and inexperienced, and isolate her from her friends?”
She can’t legally consent, it’s rape. Although if he is drunk too, and they both have sex then she has raped him. Law is odd for that one, least in Australia.
“Shes young, shes drunk, she likes you.she wont resist. Or not a lot.”
That’s fucked up. Is he trying to talk his way into her pants or is he doing something even more sinister?
Do these writers ever just make shit up purposely to stir up feminists? It’s the only legitimate (albeit stupid) reason someone would write this. Trollbait for feminists by talking about rape without referring to the word?
When the guy’s statements include:
ignore what she says and physically force her. If you cant verbally and physically dominate a drunk 18 yo girl that likes you, please kill yourself.
and
tell her to shut the fuck up, and make her go on her knees and suck your dick
I think it is safe to say this is not about “talking” his way into her pants, but yes, in fact, is something much more sinister. Specifically, kidnapping and rape.
Good point. Now do you think he is trolling or being serious?
We resort to PUA tactics because we are desperate. Nothing we do is good enough.
I have a friend I fancy. One night we were alone at her place and I made a move. She resisted so I tried the “agree and amplify” tactic they talk about on PUA web sites. It felt like I was setting out to rape her, I care too much for her to hurt her so I backed off.
2 months later she is crying on my shoulder because they latest guy she chose over me date raped her. I was horrified that she went through that. I was even more horrified to find out a month later that she is still seeing him.
PUA tactics work, I just wish I didn’t have a consience.
You can’t win em all though. It hurts when someone you like doesn’t like you back in that way but talking about her as “choosing someone over you” isn’t a good idea. It’s probably just going to sting your self esteem. By the way she sounds, I’d move on. You sound like you’re completely friendzoned and I doubt she’s ready for a relationship if she’s allowing someone to rape her, and then continues to see them.
I’m gonna sound like a real prick here, but do you want to be with a woman who will stay with a guy who rapes her? It doesn’t sound like she is in a good place at the moment, probably isn’t ready for a relationship but how would you feel to be with someone who’d stay with a guy that rapes her? Would you feel special? To me that is a major red flag, I’d say she needs help more than a date. Why didn’t she press charges?
What exactly happened and why did it feel like rape to you? Trying to understand what the agree n amplify tactic is and what was going on for it to make you feel that way? If you felt that way, it’s a good sign that you give a damn about people.
The world is teeming with women who stay with, or go back to, men who abuse them.
This leaves men who “give a damn about people” in an invidious position, and telling them to stop caring and “move on” is not exactly helpful.
But if she’s clearly showing she isn’t interested in him, then it’s probably best to move on. That doesn’t mean dump her as a friend but to realize that he probably isn’t going to get a relationship at the moment with her.
I have to agree with Archy, why are you still friends with this woman if you are hoping for a relationship and she is not interested? Is she a drama queen? Does she have an unstable personal life?
Please Google “histrionic personality traits” – it may be enlightening about her personality and why she acts the way she does.
Maybe – I dunno, this is crazy, but – maybe he values her friendship for reasons besides sex? i’m told it can happen!
I’ve got a friend I fancy. She’s taken. Her boyfriend’s so great for her I find it impossible to be jealous, and I’m beyond hoping for anything more than friendship between us. I still enjoy her company. Should I stop being friends with her?
Actually, now that I’ve removed as much identifying detail from that example as I can, the other three or four I was going to follow up with are redundant. Consider them reprises.
Knowing these women doesn’t stop me looking elsewhere for sex; but nor does looking elsewhere for sex stop me giving a damn about my friends.
I completely understand where Retsie is coming from. The reason he is hanging in there with a woman who might have personality disorders, is that he is looking across the couch at her crying about some drama that had nothing to do with him, and she is RIGHT THERE, in the same room talking about intimate stuff. It’s not like he can click on to his amazon.com account and under the “you might like this” section, they’re going to have a nice selection of mentally stable women that are going to fall in love with him. When you have nothing else going on romantically, ending up in the friend zone with a completely messed up woman is better than sitting alone, or with a bunch of equally frustrated guys, getting plastered. Hope springs eternal.
Sarah–you seem to be suggesting that a woman’s company is only worthwhile if she’s having sex with you. If the friendship is hurting him or keeping him from exploring other dating options, then yes, he needs to back off and take some space for himself. See if friendship is a possibility at a later point. If, on the other hand, their friendship is deeper and isn’t affecting his dating life or emotional wellbeing too much, it seems kind of cruel to just callously toss her aside just because she isn’t having sex with him. From your posts , you’ve mentioned that you’re in your 40s. You’ve had some time to navigate the dating world and relationships and figured out a lot of things. Plenty of young and inexperienced women (and men…I know many who kept going back to partners who treated them like shit) haven’t quite figured out what they want from a relationship or sadly end up having to learn from mistakes (whatever side of the abuse they’re on). As to the question of not reporting. Even if I was violently raped now, I don’t know that I’d report it because I’m scared to go through the legal system. I’m not in a place where I can do that right now—time and money issues as well as skeletons in my closet that I’m not ready to come out. The fear of being interrogated by a mean prosecutor who might engage in victim blaming at a time in my life where I’m not in a good place and do not have a tough skin.
Sounds like she got what she was looking for… it doesn’t mean that you have to be the one who gives it to her. The problem that I’m hearing from you is that you look at this as some sort of a failure on your part when the reality is that you’re just fine and girls like her and the guys she goes for are failures.
Here’s an example of a woman who claims that she wouldn’t be cheating on her husband if he was “a little better in bed and emotionally available”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVqeo4jMlXE&feature=player_embedded Then she lets out the bombshell that she’s filed for divorce over 3 months ago. Emotionally available, huh?
“I just wish I didn’t have a consience.”
I’ve thought that a few times myself, but why haven’t you used PUA stuff on an equally attrative woman you don’t know? Part of the attraction you felt was knowing her and seeing her as a person. You cared for her. That wouldn’t be the case if you were an ass.
I can sympathize with you. My former sister-in-law’s cousin was the only person in that family that I liked. Besides her being gorgeous, she was a geniunely kind person, who my mom called the perfect woman. She was an educated professional with a decent paying job. She cooked. She made Holloween costumes for my niece and nephew. She always spoke to me when she saw me alone. She was a genuinely nice person, who wanted people to feel welcome.
The first time I met her future husband, I had this urge to tear his windpipe out of his throat. It’s the first time I ever felt that way when first meeting someone. My mother would remark that he didn’t like me. His eyes were always on me when we were in the same room. My niece was 2 or 3 at the time and was deathly afraid of him. She didn’t ike him at all. I found it odd that she looked for me when he was around instead of her dad. If I believed in reincarnation, I would say that we were probably enemies in at least one past life.
Her family loved him. He was a successful business man who was a millionaire before he turned 30. Two days after putting two bullets in her head, he took his own life leaving their son an orphan. At her funeral, I’m looking at her lying there and could only say that I was sorry that I didn’t rip his windpipe out when I had the chance.
I am deeply sorry for your loss. I know this must be a very heavy burden on your soul. No one has a crystal ball, but we all have instinctual senses when it comes to evaluating another human being. Children are better at this because they haven’t been taught to doubt their inner voice yet. If there is anything that you can take away from such a senseless situation, it’s to remember to listen to yours and to act on it. It’s highly likely this woman was abused by her husband before he killed her. Strong, intelligent women have a hard time admitting that they are abused (even to themselves). They are embarassed to reach out for help, and often think they can handle it themselves. It’s all part of the denial that goes with Battered-Women’s Syndrome. I hope you never find yourself faced with this again but if you do, talk to the woman privately, like a brother. Explain how you came to learn this lesson and tell her about what your senses are telling you about her man. Ask her to keep this between you both and let her know she can reach out to you anytime if she ever needs help. She may laugh it off or act insulted but if you let her know it’s not a burden you wish to bear at HER funeral, I venture to say most women would be endeared to you for putting yourself out like that, even if you’re wrong. If you are mistaken, no one is harmed. But if you aren’t, you may turn out to be her only lifeline. Most big life lessons repeat themselves at some point. You’ve gained wisdom from this that can be applied if this one does.
“PUA tactics work, I just wish I didn’t have a consience.”
??? You might want to rethink that one. Are you saying you wish you had it in you to rape someone?
‘ PUA tactics work, I just wish I didn’t have a consience. ‘
PUA tactics work and it doesent have anything to do with rape, Its about improving yourself, learning vital social skills, becoming a interesting person. Otherwise they wouldn spent so much time with peacoaching and inner game. They would instead teach you to hide in a bush with a mask. And what they do, is nothing special, its just what people (men and women) have done for centuries. Just now it has a name.
I didn’t bother to do much more than scan this article because I don’t like PUA or the kind of people who support them. PUA shills exist on virtually every discussion board and space on the internet covertly or overtly pushing their product. PUA is only an issue because it has a financial stranglehold on the subject of meeting women. They are organized and have the money to engage in cut throat anti-competitive tactics. There are zero other books on the subject available for men at bookstores. Plenty for women though. Doesn’t anybody see anything wrong with that? That is the real issue.
Big up that comment! its a market that needs to be addressed I guess….
i really hate this phrase “rapey.” Someone either forced someone into sex or they didn’t. This guy seems like a jerk and a misogynist but he didn’t force anyone into sex.
If someone resists even a little bit when you try to have sex with them, then you have committed rape. That is what this guy did.
Rapey behaviour is when someone behaves like a rapist, I don’t like the word, because it sounds kinda cute, rather than describing the crime for what it is. The title should have been “Rapist PUA field report” or something.
I’m trying to figure out if he meant resist and then the guy successfully asked again, or if he used force? Rape is by force, though not sure how coersion plays a part, if it’s a separate category of sexual assault or not. At what point does asking again n again become rape, the first time after a no?
I don’t know if he did or not, but he specifically advised people to force women who don’t consent. I honestly can’t think of a better definition of rape.
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/dr-nerdloves-guide-to-building-sexual-tension-part-1/
This is a good article on GMP that gives advice, but in a non-rapey, non-creepy way. A lot of people have been asking about this. Where’s the advice other than “be yourself”? This is a good start.
Aya, That is an interesting article, but it gave me the impression that it is for the guy that is already on a date, already has his foot in the door, has already booked a legitimate phone number, etc. Doing the things that the good doctor suggests (the gazing, the running your hand down her neck) in that article before you are in that position are clearly going to mark you as a serious creeper. And he includes a video of James Bond (Daniel Craig version) and a nice big picture of George Clooney. Those are big confidence builders.
“Those are big confidence builders.”
I got to thinking about that whole confidence thing and I’ve seen changes in guys, who hadn’t dated for a while after they got a couple dates. It got me wondering is it just me misinterpreting it, is it the change in the guy, or are women more attracted to a guy when he already has a girlfriend? Is it just particular women? Are they just in it for the competition or do they really think that they must be missing something if someone else finds him special.
I have a male friend. He has ‘nice guy syndrome’. We dated about 3 years ago. At the time I was still in love with my unavailable ex and was in a bad place. Yeah. Didn’t go anywhere.
After that we became friends. He has been a very good person to me. He’s that care taking guy. That guy who looks after others before himself. He’s also low in confidence with women (!) which strikes me as so odd because in social situations he’s takes the lead. After a heavy drinking session we had sex at the beginning of the year. Over a period of time I started to say to myself ‘how about him? he’s cute, he knows all my flaws and is still here, he’s talented, he’s be an amazing dad, he’s not afraid of intimacy (!)’
then my shallow side came out – ‘but he’s also over weight, complains when walking to much, smokes weed, isn’t that confident in the bedroom’. We went out on a couple of dates and kissed and I decided that I just wasn’t feeling it as much as I’d like to. We spoke about it and he was hit by it. He started saying how he’s always in these situations with females and that the nice guy finishes last. Eventually, I said to him that his ‘problem’ is
1. I am probably STILL not emotionally available. Im getting there…..yes hopefully
2. He lets him be friend zoned by girls he likes.
3. Hes not dating enough. His dating skin isn’t thick enough.
4. What is most unattractive about him is this gaping, void ish, self doubt, low confidence in this area of his life thing. That is the repellant.
I told him to fix up and stop feeling sorry for himself and go out there aimed with some tools.
Be a little more risk taking, Be a little bit more selfish. He has a habit of always putting others before himself and his state gets left behind.
I’d loved for him to call me up one day and say I’m with a girl, I’m happy, she’s great. I’ll tell you when the wedding is. because he deserves it.
I realise the awkwardness in me telling him this advice – as I am a girl whose ‘rejected’ him.
But he needed to hear it.
Has he taken your advice?
This was very recently – so we’ll see. I do get the opinion that he is less of a ‘mug’ (I really don’t mean that in a disrespectful way!). Just in his reactions to conversations we’ve had afterwards. If I was more manipulative or had a histrionic disorder then I could of walked all over this dude. His development is way more important to me than my emotional needs being met in the present. I need to fix up also. Because ‘almost’ using nice guys when you know your not i love isn’t nice.
Nice post Natty! I’ve gotten the same kind of lecture from women too. I have a woman friend who is like a peace, love, and grooviness hippy girl. Not long ago, she told me I had to be more “aggressive”. I blew a drink through my nose when she said that, because I couldn’t believe it came out her mouth. I am very outgoing, and friendly with just about everyone I meet. I will also not hesitate to speak up, stand my ground, or take the lead in any situation. Ultimately, I guess it means that I should be more of an A-hole, and that I should just be hitting on women all the time, no matter how uncomfortable I make them. But even after steeping myself in some of the PUA literature, that is really hard for me. It is against my basic nature. It is not “being myself”. I could wait and meet a reasonable, nice woman, but at this point it looks like the world will end before that happens. I honestly think that they are all taken.
Have you looked into MILFs? I know of two women who are extremely hot even after three kids for one and two for the other. They hooked up with nice guys after having dealt with jerks. They adore their husbands. One has two kids with her husband and one with her ex. The other doesn’t have any kids with her husband yet and has two with her ex.
When women have kids, I think that sometimes their priorities change. They don’t look for Mr. Excitement. They look for Mr. Stable (not just financially, but more so emotionally). My mom told me that when my dad died people were asking her why she didn’t remarry and she told them that she was worried that her new husband might abuse her children.
A lot of times women with kids expect you to jump right into the daddy role so a lot of guys won’t even consider it, but if you think that it won’t bother you, you can really date out of your league and still be a nice guy.
Thanks for the compliment JP!
Do you think that this advice you’ve received has been correct for you? You don’t sound comfortable about it. Perhaps your interpreting the advice in the wrong way. I wouldn’t use the word ‘aggressive’ I would use the word ‘assertive’. I don’t think you should be ‘more of an a hole’ or hitting on women all the time when they’re uncomfortable.
I am sure there are times when women might welcome you hitting on them? (!) ?
But also getting use to rejection is key to this. Thats the advice you can take from the PUAs I guess. Because if you confidently walk away from rejection without a whimper than thats sexy.
Baby…I’m sorry…Natty,
I’ve got a hide like a rhinoceros.
I have been in a lot of situations in life where I have had to learn humility. But that has not stopped me from saying f0(# you to somebody or something and walking away. But I generally have to say that I abide by Michael’s sentiments as posted further up the thread. A lot of women can’t deal with someone that is too passionate, or too lively, or too smart, or too much themselves. Unless they are good looking of course. The fact that I look like the south end of a north bound mule doesn’t help me much in that department. But the way that people look is not really something that is talked about on the GMP, and I understand why, because it messes up a lot of feminist and lefty theory about the way that humans operate. Looks can never be made fair. Some people will always have an advantage because they are good looking. And that applies to every single aspect of life. Exhibit #1: Sarah Palin. Anyway, thanks for your advice, and have a great day!
You are right it is much easier for good looking guys. I did not comment on the phrase about ‘being yourself’ at all in my post. I find it annoying when people say that after a request for advice. It has nice intentions but its all fluff.
Its a bit like when I told a male mate about a guy I dated recently. He replied with ‘your awesome. he doesn’t know what he’s missing’. NIce of him. But I wasn’t fishing for that compliment.
Natty, I hope someday your friend follows your advice and transforms his “vibe”. You may have hurt his feelings initially but honesty is necessary. We have a hard time viewing ourselves objectively; as everyone else sees us. There’s a huge difference in picking on someone for their shortcomings and pointing them out so they can be addressed. You probably told him things he already tells himself. But hearing it from a woman has now made it real to him. Perhaps you will be sitting at his wedding someday, jealously wishing you had snatched up that keeper when you had the chance! Best of luck to your friend. Here’s to having him thank you someday for helping him reposture himself to find what he’s looking for.
” What is most unattractive about him is this gaping, void ish, self doubt, low confidence in this area of his life thing. That is the repellant.”
What do you think happens when a guy gets friendzoned for his entire life?
erm….he doesn’t get married? or get laid often?
pfft….im sure your going to tell me?
If you don’t think a lifetime of rejection puts a serious dent in self confidence or creates a sense of desperation, I’m not sure what to tell you.
stop commenting with questions.
it can be hard to detect sarcasm on the internet. my apologies!
of course he’s going to have a dent in his self confidence – ?!?!? how on earth did you think I did not know that?
Sorry! I use sarcasm so much that I forget it can be difficult to follow sometimes.
As for not knowing that, you would be surprised how many people think it is no big deal and that only weak people take repeated rejection badly.
Fair enough. Common sense in my mind. Unfortunately I happen to think that people are a product of their environment. Nurture is far more influencing than nature. You are not inherently born ‘weak’.
‘ Where’s the advice other than “be yourself”? This is a good start. ‘
I agree, I hate that advice. If you are a person who feels like a living failure, and you have lots of selvhate. Giving this advice its like spitting him/her in the face.
I think this deranged advice that doesn’t work anyway. Whomever this person had sex with would have just as readily had sex with him without him having to secretly plan it out like a proto-rapist. If the girls wouldn’t want sex with a certain guy, they probably wouldn’t have done any of the things that he says he’s done with them. I think he’s basically stupid, trying to convince himself that he’s in charge of an 18 year old girl when for all we know she’s in charge of him and he’s playing along to her expectations. Clearly she isn’t aware that he’s a disgusting pile of filth, but I think that both men and women should take this as a learnable moment about their expectations of one another on the hookup scene.
We also don’t know what “forced” means in his scenarios, whether he’s grabbing them by the neck and throwing them in the cab or whether he’s using it as a sort of “manly” euphemism for begging them or flirting them into agreeing at each step of his scheme. Not that it matters much – whatever it is that he does in real life, he is clearly trying to convince other men to rape women.
I read the article and it made me remember an experience I had in a bar. A group of male friends wanted to go to a club. I didn’t want to go, but had turned down a few social activates already sp felt I had to accept. Part of being friends is compromise so I went. I went with a group of Hispanic and a couple Asian friends. There were about ten of us. They took me to this suburbanite bar were we appeared to be the only minorities, not good.
They decided to hold up a wall, while I was being antsy. They tried to drown their boredom in alcohol and wanted me to do the same, but I was too pissed at them for dragging me there. A friend decided to play fight and kicked me in the ribs so I kicked him in the head. Neither blow was hard, but it seems to have been observed. I walked away from them over to the bar. Grabbed a long straw and started flicking it around like it was a knife. I guess I got the group by the bar nervous because they bought me a drink.
I stepped away from the bar and noticed the huge black guy who was built like a linebacker staring at me. It didn’t occur to me that he was black and I hadn’t seen any minorities there. I just saw a guy staring at me and I was in a foul mood already. So I started staring back with that WTF look. He stands there and another one comes by and stands next to him. They’re staring at me and I’m staring back. Then I notice the name of the bar on their shirts. Oh shit, I just stared down two of the bouncers.
So I look away and step a little farther from the bar. This young girl actually comes up to me. She’s just turned 21 and her cousin and his friend were taking her drinking. I’m talking with her and doing quite well when my cock blocking friends come by. I drive them away a couple times then suggest that we go to the other side of the club where there was another bar. She says OK and we head to the other side. We’re stopped by some people who say hi to me. I never saw them in my life, but they might know of me that’s possible. Anyway, she’s convinced that I know everyone in the bar. I found out what neighborhood she lived in. She liked to dance, but was too shy to dance in public. I told her that as long as she was with me, no one would make fun of her. She started dancing for me and I was just starting to get handsie when a friend grabbed me and said it’s time to go. I’m trying to talk to her while I’m being dragged out.
We get outside and he asks me if I still had my wallet. Now they decide to protect me. I ask if that had to do with the three guys who were following us. He was surprised I saw them. The only reason they were still standing is because they were her cousin and his friends. Granted I was about 30, but there were only three and she was hot. That was the capper to a night of being pissed.
What I didn’t realize was that I was using PUA tactics young, drinking, and separated from her friends.
I wanted to sleep with her eventually, but would have settled for some kisses, a dance, a feel or another date. I never lied to her and I was willing to take no for an answer at any time and that’s the difference. If a PUA defines sex as the only form of success, there will be significant pressure to rape.
None of what you did was unconsentual though, and you didn’t try to trick her into going home with you (I’m guessing you would have just asked when the time came). There’s a world of difference between that and “just force her.”
“PUAs did not invent this. Other people are doubtless out doing this. PUAs are just the ones who have jargon for it and document it publicly on message boards.”
In fact men are not the only ones doing this. Women target younger, inexperienced, guys too and many women use alcohol or another drug to incapacitate someone to take advantage of them. There are female rapists. Are there female PUAs?
ha ha ha – yes there probably are
Female PUAs? I think they are called “cougars”. The thing is they don’t need any “game”. Just some spray on tan, a gym membership, a good dye job, a low cut blouse, and purse with a few condoms in it. I was talking to a well put together 40 something (I am older) in a bar a few weeks ago, and bought us a shot of Fernet. I went to talk to a friend on the other side of the joint briefly, and when I came back she had split. A little later, I saw her and a similarly accoutered woman on the street in a pedicab. They were looking for a place with a lot of “young, hot guys”. The driver suggested a frat party, and off they went. The problem is, they will get together with one of these young guys, have some good lovin’, and then get upset because these fellows act like…young guys who are not interested in a “relationship”.
‘ Female PUAs? I think they are called “cougars”. The thing is they don’t need any “game”. ‘
Depend what the goal is and lot of women lacks confidence (just like lot of guys) not all women are the cool hot chicks you see in clubs. Beside that she may be interested in a particular guy, not all guys?
And a cougar is a older woman interested in young boys. A female aspirant PUA can be a young shy girl or a lusty older woman. Age is not so determinant as you think.
If there are 40 year women going out there trying to pull a guy in his early twenties into a relationship. She’s delusional.
‘ If there are 40 year women going out there trying to pull a guy in his early twenties into a relationship. She’s delusional. ‘
Who say she want him into a relationship?
‘the problem is, they will get together with one of these young guys, have some good lovin’, and then get upset because these fellows act like…young guys who are not interested in a “relationship”.’
?
‘‘the problem is, they will get together with one of these young guys, have some good lovin’, and then get upset because these fellows act like…young guys who are not interested in a “relationship”.’’
J P McMahon, said that.
I was replying to his comment. not yours
‘ The problem is, they will get together with one of these young guys, have some good lovin’, and then get upset because these fellows act like…young guys who are not interested in a “relationship”. ‘
I know some older women who are into young guys. And they are perfectly aware that its nothing serious, beside some occasional fun. Although some serious is not to exclude. There are tons of young guys interested in older women for long term relationship.
‘ n fact men are not the only ones doing this. Women target younger, inexperienced, guys too and many women use alcohol or another drug to incapacitate someone to take advantage of them. There are female rapists. Are there female PUAs? ‘
PUA’s dont resort to this cheap tactics. The thing with PUA’s is to make her willingly have sex with you, not drug her or raping her straight away. I think the world of pickup art, should do a cleansing work and remove all this ambivalent individual who make this kind of advices.
Yes, there are female PUA’s. Google FPUA and you’ll read all about it. But I don’t think they worry as much about potentially date-raping a guy. There’s an old saying ,”you can’t rape the willing”. I’ve never heard of a guy who needed coercion to get naked and have a good old-fahioned roll in the hay. I think the FPUA platform is more of how to get “hot” guys or how to date out of your league (so to speak) if you aren’t an “HB9″. Lol. The BEST men in relationships are those that aren’t gorgeous. I’ve been approached by plenty of good-looking idiots who turned me off as soon as they opened their mouths and revealed what’s in those empty heads of theirs. AFC’s with just enough confidence (even if they’re taking it and I can tell) are far more attractive to me han some slick bastard with an angle. Nice guys, fear not! There are babes out there who want you for who you are…being yourself means being real. Don’t put your best foot forward. Reveal your doubts in yourself, but also reveal your strengths. That’s what being yourself is. And it’s soooo much sexier than any frame or game.
When I was 18 I would not let my friends out of my sight. Especially if she was vulnerable or naive. Although when a friend was adamant that she wanted to leave with a guy she was looking at me like ‘I wanna get laid’ in that case, go ahead. Where were hers? I agree with another commenter – if his game was better he probably wouldn’t need to be so aggressive. Rapist. Sigh.
Except that, in real life, a lot of ‘friends’ don’t actually back off when the girl makes it clear she wants the attention. They decide that she’s had two drinks, so she can’t possibly ‘want’ the attention. Or they get upset because they aren’t getting all of the attention. Or they decide that because they aren’t attracted to you, the girl you’re talking to shouldn’t be attracted to you, either. So they keep playing third wheel, or they try to ‘prove’ you unworthy by making nasty comments and otherwise harassing you.
You really shouldn’t project your normalcy on other people. YOU back off, because YOU are only looking out for your friends. But there are a lot of other people out there who have far less than noble reasons for doing this. That’s why we rarely approach groups, and that’s why we try to ‘isolate’ (because god knows, the last thing a relationship should be is between two people) women. Not because we’re predators, but because we know that not everyone is a decent human being (and that goes for women, too).
The use of ‘I’ in my example is talking about MY experience and my immediate friends.
I also commented that if a friend is adamant that she wants the guy then its her choice.
Obviously the ‘rapist’ guy in the original post will pick someone without a good support structure around her.
As if I think that everyone is like me, with my nice morals! Of course there are undesirables out there. If you are using PUA tactics then you should be able to tell if the girls friends are not going to get in the way or not after observing for a period of time. Granted this is not always possible. But MOST people respect other’s privacy.
This also sounds like your experience has been with 16 year old girls. I do not know any girls my ages (26) who carry on like this.
Being a pickup artist can be a source of pride. Taking clients that have never been able to express themselves in a way that is attractive to women and unlocking their inner confidence and personality is, I think, a truly worthy endeavour.
People like the person who started the RSD thread are not “pickup artists.” The PUA forums are too often jam-packed with teenage boys, keyboard jockeys, and creepers like this who, most of the time, are writing works of fiction. These threads make me cringe because I know that I will be associated with them simply because the author called himself a PUA. The tactics described do not describe any that I have heard any professional PUA teach, and I’ve worked with and/or thoroughly examined the teachings of all of the big names, including RSD and Tyler personally. Again, this is NOT what professional PUAs are teaching their students, and I’ll note that the first RSD instructor to comment on this person’s thread quite clearly told him off.
A real pickup artist does not seek out drunk women to dominate into submission. Beyond it being totally wrong, it’s entirely unnecessary. Real PUAs can meet and attract sober, intelligent, attractive women, and in the words of one of the most talented pickup artists I’ve worked with, “Being picked up by a PUA should be the most fun experiene of a woman’s life.” He may be exaggerating, of course, but if that’s the attitude that one has while interacting with people — the goal of the interaction being to make things fun — it will lead to good places.
~~Affection, Project Manhattan
@Affection
Good to hear a resonable voice.
Thanks for putting time in writhing a clarificating comment.
put very nicely
can I send my male friend your details?
Of course… but from reading your earlier posts, it probably won’t do much good! Most men and women (including myself) have learned the hard way that trying to change someone doesn’t work. People can indeed change, but the motivation to change has to come from within.
…and same goes for you.
I’m sure he’d love for you to stop falling for a-holes, but that’s not going to happen until you decide that there’s a reason to change. For now, there’s no pressing (enough) reason for you to trade the excitement of your current type for the stability of the nice guy.
~~Affection
I fell for one a – hole. Not lots of a – holes. It took me a long time to get over him. Because of that one a-hole (and a dysfunctional childhood with abuse that probably caused me to chase him out) I haven’t been able to trust, commit and move into a long term relationship.
Also – he has expressed an interest in changing himself. I am in no way going to try and change him. You are forgetting that I’ve known him for a long time and he’s been talking about and has started doing stuff to move on this change. He invited that advice from me.
I may have lost out here, but there is not much I can do except concentrate on myself and making myself available and healthy. Not sit down and cry over thinking I was ready for a nice guy, when I wasn’t.
Thanks any hoes.
@ Affection
“Being picked up by a PUA should be the most fun experience of a woman’s life.”
That’s interesting because that’s what I usually tell people. Just go out and have fun. I know personally, when I’m out with the idea of just having fun and not necessarily trying to get dates, I seem to do much better with women. It might be because there’s no pressure on me, it could be because there’s no pressure on her (no expectations on my part) or it could be because people just like hanging out with people who are having a good time. I could never see the purpose of my friends going out just to hold up a wall.