What’s wrong with men’s bodies? Too often we’re taught that men are revolting and women are flawless.
Like countless American children, I grew up hearing the nursery rhyme that claimed that little boys were made of “snips and snails and puppy-dog tails” while girls were “sugar and spice and everything nice.” Attached as I was as a small boy to our pet dachshund, I thought puppy-dog tails were a fine thing indeed, but the point of the rhyme wasn’t lost on me. Boys were dirty, girls were clean and pure.
We’re raised in a culture that both celebrates and pathologizes male “dirtiness.” On the one hand, boys were and are given license to be louder, rowdier, and aggressive. We’re expected to get our hands dirty, to rip our pants and get covered in stains. We enjoy a freedom to be dirty that even now, our sisters often do not. No mistake, that’s male privilege.
But growing up with the right to be dirty goes hand-in-hand with the realization that many people find the male body 
repulsive. In sixth grade, the same year that puberty hit me with irrevocable force, I had an art teacher, Mr. Blake. (This dates me: few public middle schools have art teachers anymore.) I’ll never forget his solemn declaration that great artists all acknowledged that the female form was more beautiful than the male. He made a passing crack that “no one wants to see naked men, anyway”—and the whole class laughed. “Ewwww,” a girl sitting next to me said, evidently disgusted at the thought of a naked boy.
In time, I discovered that Mr. Blake was wrong about this so-called artistic consensus. But it took me a lot longer to unlearn the damage done by remarks like his and by the conventional wisdom of my childhood. I came into puberty convinced both that my male body was repulsive and that the girls for whom I longed were flawless. (I still remember how floored I was at 16, when the lovely classmate on whom I had a crush farted while I was sitting next to her in German class. I had sincerely believed until that moment that women didn’t pass gas.)
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A year later, in my first sexual relationship, I was convinced that my girlfriend found my body physically repellent. I could accept that girls liked and wanted sex, but I figured that what my girlfriend liked was how I made her feel in spite of how my body must have appeared to her. Though I trusted that she loved me, the idea that she—or any other woman—could want this sweaty, smelly, fumbling flesh was still unthinkable.
Not long after that first relationship broke up, I had a series of fleeting sexual encounters with both men and women. I knew I wasn’t gay, but I was bi-curious. I was never as sexually attracted to my male partners as I was to women—but I was powerfully attracted to their attraction to me.
I remember one night when I was still in high school that I had sex with a much older man. He was maybe 40, and I couldn’t get enough of the way he looked at me. I felt a rush of elation and relief so great it made me cry. The sex I had with him was not based on my desire for him; rather, I wanted to make him feel good out of my own colossal gratitude for how he had made me feel with his words and his gaze. As we lay on a motel bed, this man ran his fingers across every inch of my body, murmuring flattery of the kind I had never heard from a woman’s lips.
“You’re so hot, you make me want to come.”
I was floored. How different those words were from my ex-girlfriend’s “Hugo, you make me feel so good.” While she had praised my technique, this stranger praised my body’s desirability. And I realized how hungry I was for exactly that kind of affirmation. I needed something to counter that old certainty that my male body was disgusting.
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I don’t want to suggest that straight women don’t lust, and that only gay or bi men are vocal about their strong sexual craving for male bodies. In time, I’d meet women who were more confident about expressing desire, and discover that it wasn’t only from men that I could get that kind of validation. I came to see that our cultural myths about desire hurt everyone. We shame women for wanting, and we shame men for wanting to be wanted. We still have too many Mr. Blakes out there, giving that same destructive message that no one wants (or should want) the dirty, disgusting male body.
Though our culture often teaches women that their bodies are also dirty (particularly because of menstruation), we also make it clear that men “naturally” crave and desire them. That creates a huge problem for women who have to navigate their way through a world that teaches them that their bodies have great power over men. By teaching women to focus on managing male desire, women are taught to ignore or suppress their own desires. That’s a loss for women, and it’s a loss for men.
So many straight men have no experience of being wanted. So many straight men have no experience of sensing a gaze of outright longing. Even many men who are wise in the world and in relationships, who know that their wives or girlfriends love them, do not know what it is to be admired for their bodies and their looks. They may know what it is to be relied upon, they may know what it is to bring another to ecstasy with their touch, but they don’t know what it is to be found not only aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but worthy of longing.
The very real hurt and rage that men often feel as a result of having no sense of their own attractiveness has very real and destructive consequences. It’s not women’s problem to solve; it’s not as if it’s women’s job to start stroking yet another aspect of the male ego.
The answer lies in creating a new vocabulary for desire, in empowering women as well as men to gaze, and in expanding our own sense of what is good and beautiful, aesthetically and erotically pleasing. That’s hard stuff, but it’s worth the effort. I know what it is to believe myself repulsive, and what it was to hear that not only was I wanted, but that I was desirable for how I appeared as well as how I acted. That was precious indeed, and far too few men have known it.
—Photo by Jurvetson/Flickr
About Hugo Schwyzer
I don’t have a whole lot to say on the subject that hasn’t been said already, but I wanted to say: thank you for bringing this into public discourse! I am primarily attracted to men, and I have a potent visual fascination with the male form. The slovenly look that most men keep, on the assumption that they could never be “sexy,” is a HUGE turn-off for me, and makes me so sad! There are so, so many good-looking guys out there in the world, and they go around hiding it and deprecating it and depreciating it. I *want* to be able to objectify menfolk a bit more– in a fun, yummy, consensual way of course– and I want men to feel more free to set themselves up for said objectification by dressing in a flattering way, smelling good, and owning their own beauty.
I make a huge point to praise my male partners for their looks, and how much their bodies turn me on, and how much I like looking at them, touching them, tasting them, and smelling them. I’ve gotten universally sheepish but positive reception, and the reward of seeing their self-confidence blossom. I’ve also gotten more requests to be sexually aggressive with them, be the “initiator”, and I think that’s great too– I love making my partners feel desired! I know it makes *me* feel great, and I am pleased to occasionally turn it around for them.
I’m not a “feminist,” I’m a “humanist–” I want people of all gender expressions to feel fulfilled, sexy, and happy with themselves. Creating more parity in expressions of desire is a great step down that road
I am amazed and happy that a man talks so openly and honest about this theme and can only hope this will inspire other men to feel more aware and proud of their physical attractiveness. Men have beautiful, fascinating bodies, just as aesthetic, erotic and lustful as a female body! And: women love looking at them! Thanks to ages and ages of being programmed that male nudity is dirty, ugly, pornographiy, gay, whatever, we might not say or show it so easily. But then nakedmenhappywomen.com is working on it
Two thumbs up!
I’m a woman, and I watch gay porn. Why? Because THERE ARE TWO HOT GUYS in it.
Yes, so much is misunderstood about human sexuality.
Great article, truly refreshing to see such open, honest accounts of an area of sensuality which isn’t much remarked upon (and thanks gabigirl for directing me here).
It should be so easy – you fancy somebody enough to sleep with them, you should feel confident enough to tell them how physically beautiful they are to you. It’s not always that easy for so many though.
I’ll def say it to Mr P when I get home tonight!
Thanks so much for bringing this issue to light…not nearly enough is being discussed about it. This is just one more aspect of the human experience in which there is an inequality that should not exist. Hopefully, (and very soon), there will be a collective mindshift away from this faulty perception of reality.
I had never thought about it in such clear terms, but I think this is actually a very overlooked problem. I was recently in a relationship with a man eighteen years older than me whom I found incredibly desirable, and I made absolutely sure that he knew how much I felt that. He said on several occasions that it was strange to feel so desired and that he’d never really had that before. This is a man who has been in two long term relationships – one of them a marriage.
I can’t imagine being with a lover and not telling him how much I want him. It just seems so natural to me. But clearly this is a problem. If a man can be forty and never have heard the words “I want you” or “I desire you” or “You’re so gorgeous” or any other variations on appearance and desire, that is definitely a problem.
I just hope there are more girls like me out there.
I met once a man like your teacher – he was teaching photography.Once he said thet many researches show that the femail body is more beautiful to both genders. I absolutely disagreed-I love the man body,especially the swimmer type.The male and female bodies are beautiful in different ways, they shouldn’t even be compared with each other.
I think this goes to the larger issue of how society perceives men viewing their own bodies as well. By and large, we RARELY think of men as being insecure over their weight, their skin, the way their asses look in those jeans….these are all body image issues we attribute almost exclusively to women. Men are told to make sure they tell their dates they look nice/smell nice/have nice eyes, but as women, we are rarely told to compliment men in the same way.
I’m almost sure that men have the same worries about their bodies as women do….are/is my boobs/cock big enough? do I smell ok? do those extra 5/10/15 pounds show? will s/he notice that blemish? But, if men express these anxieties, they’re called metro sexual or feminine or queer or insecure or beta. So it’s really not surprising to me that many men remain silent about these particular wants and needs. How many men of been met with incredulity and disdain when they’ve expressed issues with body image?
I wonder how many women routinely tell their lovers how attractive they are? That they have great hair, perfect skin, and an ass that looks amazing in those jeans….hopefully some of us will.
Great Article! As a lesbian I often remind my gay boyfriend that while I am attracted to women, I am not blind to the beauty of men. I had never thought of how men must feel about their bodies, but it’s really not so different from how girls feel about theirs. I find the male figure attractive and striking, even though the dangly bits make me laugh
God bless you. That was just sweet.
Though I have to admit that almost everything about the human form makes me laugh if I forget to look at it just a certain way – hair in all the wrong places, that waddling upright stance, and remember, women have their dangly bits too, two of them.
I completely agree. Objectively we are a plain species, as attractive as elephants.
Dolphins and certain breeds of dogs eg the lassie dog, hgold more beauty than our species
Hi,
I’ve never posted on here before; I hope I am not rude out of ignorance. Here goes.
I am a cisgender woman, a Women’s Studies major, and I LOVE this website. Brilliant, all of it.
This particular post I love. I wanted to point out, the thing you seem to be longing for is what I have often identified in my life and in gender politics as “the male gaze”. Now, it really should be called “the objectifying gaze”, because that’s what it means; it means to be brought down to a level where you are just a *thing*, not a *person*.
That doesn’t mean that what you’re talking about isn’t important or something to be wanted and longed for. I think – I hope – there’s a way to have a gaze of *desire* without coupling it with *objectification*. Of anyone. But it kind of weirds me out that you would so badly want something that makes so many (femme) women want to cover up and run away and hide to feel like a person again.
Just wondering about your thoughts on that bit. But again – I really appreciate what you’ve said, particularly about art. I think the male form is beautiful.
~Sarah
But it kind of weirds me out that you would so badly want something that makes so many (femme) women want to cover up and run away and hide to feel like a person again.
Sarah
im glad you used the the term ‘femme’, as that is the cause.
Of course you are weirded out.
It is masculinity that displays itself. Masculinity that is very often the beauty of the species where one can differentiate visually between the genders eg. The peacock with his majestic brighter tail , male songbirds with brighter beakers
’A study of why the beaks of male songbirds are so vibrant shows that the brighter the colour, the stronger his ability to fend off infectious diseases. Female birds are most attracted to males with the brightest beaks but that is not just an aesthetic preference; it is a hard-edged choice that could confer a genetic advantage on their offspring, the scientists say today in the journal Science…
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-reveal-why-the-male-songbirds-beak-is-so-attractive-593327.html
With our species, the face of the male is adorned with hair, the face of the female quite hairless (usually).
History suggests that like other species, the human male is the beauty.
Though history in most times, most places. It was the male whose body was more uncovered than the female, until 200yrs ago. When the puritan commercial caste usurped the warrior caste, and gave to themselves power that they neither deserve nor can handle.
Femininity is the judge.
Masculinity parades before feminity for selection.
This is love of being gazed at, is not bizarre to the average holders of masculinity – whether in male or female bodies ie. masculine straight, bi or gay men, butch lesbians (ive spoken with), maybe even str8 tomboys (I haven’t spoken with them about this).
Im one of the few men that women will gaze at, and when a woman looks approvingly at me it usually triggers sexual arousal in me. Im more facially attractive than most women. And yet on 80% of women in the UK under 70, I estimate Id find a part of the body that sexually arouses me.
I like the majority of str8 men and from speaking with a butch lesbian, a fair number of lesbians, I am sexually attracted to the general form of woman.
The hit of euphoria I feel when a woman gazes at me. Why don’t you feel that hit?
What percentage of men sexually arouse you, just from looking at their bodies?
For those who will explode at the gender essentialism – i don’t deny the plasticity of the brain, the effects of culture in contorting notions of masculinity and feminity etc.
However the tabula rasa-ists are just like the religious. They both take great emotional offense at the idea humans are just animals – nothing more.
The subconscious which is the true governor of human behaviour, is fully animal in behaviour and practise.
This will only fully change with the advances of bioscience, when we are able to rewire the brain, genetically enhance our bodies eg. when women, and I wonder how may will – a fair number I bet- will genetically enhance their upper body strength so that it matches mens.
To deny the effects of this machinery on our behaviour, is as odd as denying evolution
I shamefully forgot about transmen when writing about masculinity whether it is found in a male or female body
Article: http://selfportraitas.com/archives/2011/03/in-praise-of-th-1.html
There definitely are double standards in popular entertainment and advertising. There may be more pressure on women than men to look a certain way, certainly more attention to the way that women look. But, in my experience, it is way more common in our culture to see men’s bodies directly portrayed as disgusting – sweaty, hairy, smelly, poorly washed, etc. There is still a lot of misogyny on TV and in movies, but it’s really uncommon to see a sympathetic male character disgusted by a woman’s body. In popular culture, usually the men turned off by women’s bodies are men who are themselves immature, disgusting, and superficial, while the women disgusted by men’s bodies are simply patient, long-suffering, civilized adults justifiably grossed out by men.
Maybe as a hairy married guy who sweats quite easily I’m overly sensitive about this, but I get a clear sense of a double standard out there: if a woman finds a man’s body disgusting, he needs to change; if he finds a woman’s body disgusting, he needs to change.
On the subject of male beauty, what I see on the magazine racks is possibly LESS diversity about male beauty than about female beauty, even more of a narrow range. I swear all those men’s fitness and men’s health magazines have exactly the same guy on every cover: short wavy hair, perfectly defined six-pack, not a hint of body hair anywhere. I see more variety on _America’s Next Top Model_.
You would never know from American media that a) many men have chest hair and b) many women like it or at least don’t mind it. I was really happy to see that Diet Coke ad with women lusting after a shirtless construction worker who had some chest hair. Whatever happened to messages like that???
I’m not saying men have it worse than women in terms of body image issues, just that men don’t get only positive messages about their bodies.
It is a sign of the importance of the issue dealt with in this article that it has elicited such a variety of self-revealing feedback.
I’d like to deal with an issue raised by Sarah. And I’m surprised it took so long for someone to mention it.
We are not our bodies. We are in our bodies. Our bodies are an important part of us. But when you look at my body you can’t see my feelings. You can’t see the responses I have made – brave or cowardly – to the challenges my life has presented. You cannot see the pain I may be carrying from the things that have been done to me. You may see clues to these things. The lines around my eyes may speak of tears or the erectness of my walk may speak of pride. But when you respond to my body you are not responding to the totality of who I am.
When we long for affirmation, it is an affirmation of our value as a person. The fact that we may or may not be physically attractive doesn’t really come into it. But, if we can’t get what we really need, we may settle for what we can get. To be ignored might be worse than being appreciated for something irrelevant.
But this doesn’t mean that viewing someone as a sex object is a form of oppression. It can be, but it needn’t be. Largely it depends on whether we view them as only a sex object. It is possible to appreciate a woman for her intelligence, her kindness, her sense of humour, and her massive juggs. These things are not mutually exclusive.
My own experience as a heterosexual male is that beautiful male bodies exist and give me pleasure. I remember realising this when I was in high school. One of my Latin text books had a picture on the cover of a famous statue called Laocoon and His Sons. I was enraptured by Laocoon’s beauty. Later I had a similar reaction to the site of Joe Dallesandro’s nude body in the movie Flesh (1968). I have no desire to have sex with those bodies. But to see them, and presumably, to touch them, is something that can give joy. And I know that a man is sexy when I would like to look like him.
As for being viewed as a sex object myself, I’d love it. I even like to delude myself that some women might see me that way. When I was with a woman I loved to be naked in front of her, but I think I probably enjoyed it more than she did. I want to be a sex object, but not enough to lose my flab or my facial hair or even comb the hair on my head most of the time. I want it, but not if I have to work for it.
But one advantage that men have over women is that an ugly man can be viewed by women as sexy. Look at Humphrey Bogart. It seems that character and personality play a bigger role in sexual arousal for women than they do for men.
So why do we find the body types sexy that we do? Leaving aside the exceptional tastes, such as desire for the very obese or those with missing limbs, etc., what we find pretty (and thus sexually arousing) in women tends to be a youthful appearance – the slimness of adolescence, the rosy cheeks of childhood, a lack of wrinkles and wide untroubled eyes, combined with those features which indicate a suitability for breeding – wide hips and large breasts. Sexual attraction of the male to the female is that of the genes seeking out a healthy non-neurotic mother for its offspring. In general the older we grow the more we collect the scars of emotional suffering and thus the more energy we have to put into nurturing ourselves and the less we have to nurture others. Thus physical signs of youthfulness, misleading as they sometimes are, are naturally associated with the ability to love a man and his children. (Sexual selection for youthful appearance is how we as a species lost our body hair.) What we see as attractive in a man is physical perfection, strength and a confident stance. These are the qualities we think will make him a good protector and a reliable long-living father figure.
None of this would be a problem if it were not for the fact that every single member of the human race currently alive is intensely neurotic. Neurosis is a cumulative problem which is only cured by complete understanding. Most of the time we deal with our insecurities by burying them deeper and trying to carry on. We’ve been doing that for a couple of million years at least and the problem has been getting worse to the extent that we can barely function any more as a society. For most of us, male and female, our lives are ones of quiet desperation. For myself I have to say that gazing at the beauty of the female form and a pretty face have been a source of succour in the abyss.
In this situation it makes little sense to continue to cling to the concept of romantic love. I don’t know about anyone else, but I want to fuck women I don’t even like. So how is sexual attraction the basis for an ongoing relationship, let alone a reliable foundation for the raising of children. Of course that doesn’t mean that it is not possible to find someone whose neurosis is compatible with ours and that that person cannot be someone with whom we enjoy sexual relations. But if we want stable families we have to decouple the concept of sexual attraction from that of life partnership. Fuck whoever you want, but if you are going to try to form an ongoing community or family, do it with someone with whom you can have an emotional relationship which is therapeutic to you both and to any children you might produce. We often acknowledge the damage done by people’s unrestrained behaviour, but less so the intense trauma we inflict on ourselves and our children by allowing our unfulfilled desires to make us bitter and hateful.
I really like this article. I have thought about similar things, particularly a while back when I was into drawing nudes. I couldn’t go to a life drawing class due to lack of money, so I looked for stock photos of non-sexualised nudes. I found far more women than men. Apparently, very few other people wanted to draw male bodies. When I found online a man who took many pictures of nude men for art purposes, many praised him for what he did.
Our bodies are revered for what they can do… make, break, perform and kill. They are seldom idolized for their looks or being.
The fact that more men are using plastic surgery to perfect their bodies might represent our evolution – but to what I don’t know.
Worshiping a body for its looks is fine if we aren’t worshiping perfection. I don’t see adopting the feminine model, which I feel comes in many ways from our male ancestors that physical beauty is what we should have is desirable. There must be something that is more than looks and performance that both sexes can appreciate in themselves and the other.
Our old models of beauty rarely serve the individual. They serve the corporations that want to market to us. Having women being appreciated for what they can do and men appreciated for their beauty is good – but there is more to being human than looks and doing.
Figleaf has a very interesting point – that the vast majority of intellectual thought has been driven by heterosexual men, and that the distaste towards male bodies emerges from that.
I am not quite sure I agree though. I think times have changed quite considerably. Why is it women are comfortable acknowledging each other as beautiful, but not men?
Very, very interesting post. Gave me a lot to think about.
Very interesting article – and equally interesting stream of comments.
I think there is a lot of truth in the various viewpoints offered. I hope there is some in mine.
Desirability is a subjective determination that (in my mind at least) goes beyond mere form. I make a distinction between lust (self centered) and desire (a bit more complex). It is common knowledge that confidence is attractive (desirable?) and though it may seem like a bit of a chicken and egg problem it really isn’t. Our form may give us confidence, but it is the confidence that is attractive. Many of us have met or heard of the physical beauty with no confidence that was (as a result) unattractive. Only desirable as an object of lust.
What gives us this confidence, the feelings of self worth tempered with humility is the subject of another post.
I am not certain being the object of lust is what we aspire to as either male or female (except that there is a certain shallow power in that as well). What I believe we really want is to be worthy of desire. To be desirable. For whatever reason the traits that make men and women desirable (though they share many common attributes) are different. The characteristics of the nursery rhyme (defining standards from 1800?) echo these attributes as Hugo points out so well. In the context of that standard women are free to attend to their desirability in ways that men are not.
We may argue the basis of these differences (female smell sensitivity? http://www.livescience.com/3457-women-smell-men.html), but they do exist. I say, “vive la difference”.
OMG, Hugo you took the words out of my mouth! I’m a woman and I’ve felt this way for the longest time. I live in Singapore, and this article describes the situation here somewhat accurately. I’m so sick and tired of seeing the women around me going to great lengths to doll themselves up while the men just kick back and accept that they are ugly. Yes, this state of affairs bothers me because I love a good-looking man, so men who don’t make an effort sicken me. Sometimes, I look around me and feel depressed when I see so many gorgeous ladies paired up with really blah looking guys. I feel sorry for the lady who doesn’t get to enjoy her partner’s body. I also feel sorry for the man who doesn’t get to experience being admired.
(I know, I almost sound like I hate the male body, but really I don’t. I’m just fed up that so many men buy into the myth that women aren’t visual creatures, and therefore completely neglect their appearance. I also think that many men here actually WANT to believe that women don’t care about looks; maybe deep down they are afraid to compete in an arena where you have only limited control. )
Hugo,
Perhaps great artists acknowledged that the female form was “more beautiful” because most great artists where heterosexual men? The art world was dominated by men. Even today, men dominate the art world and a male artist is more likely to get a larger commission for a piece of work then a female artist.
Add in the fact that some men still have fears of homosexuality that any expression that the male body was beautiful (even if they weren’t attracted to it) made them fearful of their own sexuality?
Off the top of my head I can list a couple fantastic and world regarded works that display the male form. Michaelangelo’s David, Auguste Rodin’s The Thinker,” Alessandra Allori’s “Allegory of Human Life”… The Romans certainly thought the male form was beautiful. They were also more in touch with their own feelings of homosexuality.
And perhaps a young girls comment of “ewww” when talking about a man’s naked body has more to do with a young girls, yet to bud, immature sexuality? Girls don’t stereotypically lust after a boy’s body like a boy might lust after a girl’s body. When I was younger, all I cared about was romance and sweet fairy-tale happy endings wrapped up in a pair of dreamy eyes. It wasn’t until I got older that I realized I really liked a man’s hands, his back, his shoulders, that awesome ridge where a man’s hip connect to his upper thigh. The more I matured, the more mature aspects, both physically through his body and emotionally, I looked for in a man.
I do slightly disagree with you a little on your comment that seems to be a small reinforcement that at least men make it clear they they naturally desire or crave women. Men might naturally desire or crave women, but women are also sold a narrow set of ideals they must live up to to have a man’s “natural” desire in them. We are to shave, pluck, wax, implant, work-off..etc etc, just to live up to a perfect ideal of womanhood. Our natural bodies aren’t celebrated. What we mold our bodies into through self abuse is. And those standards are sometimes so unnatural, women aren’t always left feeling that the desire a man has for them has so much to do with them, as it does the narrow ideals she strives to live up to just to have his “natural” desire.
But I do agree with you that we too often shame men for wanting to feel desired and women for desiring.
And this paragraph really stuck me because I didn’t realize how personal it could be for men. I just always assumed men were more happy to lust after women then have strong feelings about knowing they are attractive too:
“The very real hurt and rage that men often feel as a result of having no sense of their own attractiveness has very real and destructive consequences.”
Erin where do you get such false history. the great european masters thought the male body was the most beautiful. That is the recurring theme found in ancient greece, rome and the european renaissance.
It is the male body and face that is venerated and worshipped as the most perfect form
James, what false history did I express? Didn’t I acknowledged that there was much art dedicated to the male form? Didn’t I mention the Roman’s themselves and their view of sexuality and the ease they expressed beauty for the male form?
Fact remains that the art world is dominiated by men. Hugo recanted his experience with his teacher Mr.Blake that said the female form was “more beautiful”. I didn’t say it, Mr.Blake did.
If you can show proof by link or qoute that the Great European masters “all” thought the male body was the most beauitiful, then I encourage you to share it. Because that’s the only way I am going to believe it. To me, the male and female body are both beautiful for different reasons. And I am not content with this being a competition of male vs female for the perfect form when both men and women bring different things to the table. You oddly, seem to want it to be some kind of competition. Not of equality where men are recongnized for their beauty equally as women are. But where men are recgonized for being *more* then what women are.
And maybe in Rome, the male body was venerated as the most perfect form. But perhaps that had nothing to do with beauty, so much as arrogance and a desire to dominant in all facets. We all know that Rome’s demise was it’s arrogance. Cultural beliefs change with time.
Today it’s clear that the female form is upheld to beauty. Women are more often sexualized. There are also 10 fold the clubs dedicated to female strippers showing off their bodies then male strippers showing off theirs. Men today have of a more invested interest in watching preening females then women have an invested interest in watching preening men. At least in the context of body only.
erin you are welcome to continue to believe your feminist false history.
im not going gently lead you through basic historical knowledge you should already possess. esp when you claim,
‘Perhaps great artists acknowledged that the female form was “more beautiful” because most great artists where heterosexual men?’
‘And maybe in Rome, the male body was venerated as the most perfect form. But perhaps that had nothing to do with beauty, so much as arrogance and a desire to dominant in all facets. We all know that Rome’s demise was it’s arrogance. Cultural beliefs change with time.’
wow, just wow
so i withdraw my comment feminist.
you can hold fast to your false feminist history, i wont intrude on yr religious beliefs
im more than happy for you to win.
you need to win.
ive lost, youve won
You’re not going to “gently lead” me “through basic historical knowledge” (something that sounds like you easily know about so it wouldn’t be hard to do) but you’re going to quote me with things you disagree with then stomp your feet and tell me “I won”, Offering no further knowledge, explanation or discussion, but making sure to make some kind of pointless point about who “wins” and dictating what I should already know. A) That makes no sense. B) It’s condescending C) You’ve offered no real information and C) You tried to use reverse phycology where you try to set yourself up as the more mature one by being the “bigger person” and letting me “win” (win what I don’t know) through what you perceive to be a contest instead of a discussion between adults that can disagree and still share ideas.
Lets not forget the part where you call me a feminist and it’s clear by your commentary that that’s close to a four letter word for you.
If you are going to accuse me of being incorrect on something, then discuss it with me. You said my history was wrong and I just asked which history was wrong. You said the great european masters thought the male body was the most beautiful, I just asked for some proof on that. I acknowledged that Roman culture and other artists depicted the male form. Before you did. But it’s not exactly uncommon knowledge or “feminist history” (who even knows what that is) that heterosexual men dominate the art world. That’s just pure fact.
Also, Rome’s demise *was* its arrogance. My “perhaps” part is just a way to share ideas and discuss. You don’t have to take it as a personal affront. Clearly in Roman cultural, there was a worship of the physical form for men. That’s also reflected in their gladiator games where there was stress on brute male strength. Both for competition and to survive. My point in bringing this up is that cultural ideals shift. And there was a different mentality about the male form in Roman culture then there is today.
ancient greeks thought that women had the higher sex drive.
ancient greeks thought a tiny penis beautiful.
ancient romans thought the larger penis more beautiful.
like today a minimium wage roman worker could only afford a single room.
at some point in roman history having tanned skin was seen as desireable, it should you could afford not to work, while others toiled indoors
maybe i can provide links for all this. or maybe i cant.
So again I completely withdraw my comment. and i withdraw what i just wrote about ancient history.
i havent back it up.
anyway less typing from you. more reading of REAL history,history of western art, and philosophy
“i havent back it up.”
That’s true. You haven’t. But I’ve invited you to do so several times now.
If you could provide links or cited sources, why wouldn’t you?
Instead you proceed with childish nonsense and nonsensical commands.
It’s one thing to disagree with me. Please go ahead and we an talk about it . That’s what discussion and topics are for yes? I’m here to read and learn. I’m here to talk about my own ideas too. Just as you are.
But it’s quite another to stomp your feet, pout, make comments then whine about how you withdraw them all the while telling someone else to type less and read more when you can’t offer anything knew other then to be offensive.
You’re really rather silly aren’t you.
If my childishness, emotionality, silliness are like an acid on me or my comments.
So be it.
im free to behave as i wish.
so are you…. arent you?
So you want this “discussion” to be about your ability to act any way you choose instead of focusing on the discussion at hand and our differing viewpoints.
Okie Dokie.
So I’m late on this one, and I really don’t want to chime in about perceived attractiveness between tthe sexes, or the roots of it.
That said, I find the paradox of male attactiveness as it relates to female attractiveness very interesting, bravo Hugo.
I’d like to be part of the solution and I agree that because were not socially conditioned that way, men lose out on what could amount ot anything from a brighter day to resolution of body issues. BUT, before I begin my campaign to make men feel more desirable, I’d like to ask one thing of some of men out there (not all, not all).
Please take it at face value when a woman compliments you. It’s not (necessarily) an invitation to more than just telling you how attractive you are. From past experience it’s often why we don’t say what we are thinking, it’s not worth what generally happens next, so we keep our mouths shut.
Men ARE beautiful in many, many ways and they should be acknowledged as such. But often the consequences of such actions are more costly than the benefits.
I think ice cream is great and I openly express that, but it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m up for a sundae, does it?
I love the male body. I am highly visual and yes, get turned on looking at men. (I thought I was going to die watching Lord of the Rings: all those manly men). Yay men!
Incidently, that tired old trope of women are emotional/men are visual needs to die.