Men must be strong enough and vulnerable enough to be men’s rights activists in their everyday lives.
In 1792, Mary Wollstonecraft wrote A Vindication of the Rights of Woman, thereby giving birth to the women’s movement. Over time, the women’s movement came to address everything from political and societal reform to relationships and women finding their own voice.
The men’s equivalent, however, was conspicuously absent until the early 1990s, when the mythopoetic movement first caught the public eye. Since then, the awareness about men’s issues has grown slowly but surely. Men are starting to wake up, and in 2011, we have at least three different strands of men’s work:
- Learning how to meet women. This is the whole pick-up artist movement. It certainly has a lot of immature elements to it, but it’s leading to mature and grounded initiatives—such as the Authentic Man Program.
- What does it mean to be a man? It seems that both exaggerated maschismo and spineless New Age vibes are going out of fashion. Instead, more men are becoming curious about male identity, deep masculinity, and male archetypes. New websites such as Masculinity Movies are on the forefront of exploring what being a man might mean in the future, and right now.
- Men’s rights activism (MRA). Is it a fair generalization to say that men are oppressive brutes who beat women and live privileged lives? And what’s up with men always being the ones who sacrifice their lives for society? Men’s rights activists have started asking these questions in a profound way, turning our beliefs about gender issues upside down.
Some men are interested in all of these domains. I know I am. After all, as a man, you have your own depth and identity, your romantic relationships, and your place in culture/society.
The only problem is that sometimes these paths appear to be mutually exclusive or, at the very least, contradict each other. Especially the Men’s Rights Movement and the other two branches. Is it really sexy or masculine to demand that your wife take on half of the physical risks so that you can be more safe? Do you feel manly while complaining that four out of five homeless people are men? It’s easy to make the call that to explore your manhood and be successful with women, you’d better man up and forget about any men’s rights.
To understand this dilemma better, and hopefully get past it, we need to understand why the Men’s Rights Movement is so small compared to feminism.
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Who Understands Whom?
In the early 1990s, a very interesting doctoral dissertation, “His and Her Childlessness,” was published in Sweden. The gist of the research was to investigate how men and women in childless couples communicate, and how well they understand each other. Traditional wisdom tells us that the man is more or less clueless while the woman has a good grasp of how he is feeling.
Men don’t want to open up because men don’t want to burden women—men want to protect women. Men also don’t want to be perceived as weak or unmanly by either women or men.
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The results, however, were nothing short of shocking. What they found was that the women talked all the time about how they were feeling, which meant that the men had a pretty good grasp of how their spouses were doing. The men, on the other hand, were silent. They noticed that the woman became emotional and upset from talking about the subject, so they wanted to protect her by avoiding the issue.
The woman, not getting any input from the man, was still confident that she understood him from reading the emotions in his face. But in reality, her guesses were actually wrong most of the time, leading to the surprising conclusion that the men knew how the women were feeling, but the women were clueless about the men!
So what can we learn from this story, this research? Men don’t want to open up because men don’t want to burden women, men want to protect women. Men also don’t want to be perceived as weak or unmanly by either women or men. Throughout history manhood has been about performing, protecting, and providing—and none of those tasks lend themselves to being weak. Women don’t like weak men because historically a weak man would be unable to do those things, and that’s not a good recipe for a mother who’s raising children.
This dynamic is the very reason that the Men’s Rights Movement is so small compared to feminism. Women are used to telling men how they feel, and feel free to complain about everyday life. In this sense, feminism is a natural extension of women voicing their concerns about the limitation of the female gender role.
Men, on the other hand, are trapped in a catch-22. At the very moment you speak up about male expendability and the limitations of the male gender role, you risk coming across as weak and unattractive to women—while feeling exactly the same way yourself.
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This quote sums it up well: Woman, having her own inevitable task, will never demand the right to share the toil of men in the mines and in the fields. She could only demand to share in the fictitious labors of the men of the wealthy classes. ~Leo Tolstoy, TO WOMEN: http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/2740/ The men in the wealthy classes did seek to make money without labor. more from Tolstoy’s essay TO WOMEN: It is not the childless woman who has conquered man, but the mother, that woman who has fulfilled her law, while the man has not fulfilled his. That woman… Read more »
I’m not an MRA supporter. Not by a long shot. But if there’s one thing that the past week has shown me, it’s that you guys do not get a fair hearing. Let’s take a look at the three articles written by feminsts here. Some of the points they bring up are quite good, in my opinion. But how are they brought up? In two cases out of three by basically mocking MRAs and parodying their positions. And is there a need for this? No. Marcotte’s points, for example, are fairly valid IMHO. So why does she feel she has… Read more »
If you are referring to Marcotte’s article regarding the solution being more feminism, then I would ask you to read my response to that article (and the response to myself then further breaking down here article) (linked bellow). If, after reading my response, you still feel marcotte has some valid points, I would love to here them. I am always looking for a discussion on what feminism has done to help men’s issues that didn’t first and foremost benefit women, and if it happens to help men in the process…”meh, it was bound to happen on occasion.”. https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/solution-mra-problems-more-feminism/#comment-19514 “So what’s… Read more »
Mr. Kratch, I think it’s fairly evident that feminists have fought for the right for women to enter into dangerous jobs that were previously closed to them: miner, pilot, fireman, police, frontline soldier. The historical record is pretty clear on this point, I believe. So if it is indeed one of MRA’s complaints that all dangerous jobs are male (and it is), feminists should be lauded for attempting to democratize and socialize those risks across both genders. Ms. Marcotte makes that point and I find it reasonable. Also, the whole Ladies Night thing… Friend, I worked as a barman on… Read more »
“So if it is indeed one of MRA’s complaints that all dangerous jobs are male (and it is), feminists should be lauded for attempting to democratize and socialize those risks across both genders.”
That’s all well and good. Now they need to address the greater social pressures on men to achieve that lead them to take a job in the ‘death professions’ over women.
Well, to my mind that’s the MRA’s job, not the feminists.
In any case, it doesn’t negate Ms. Marcotte’s point, which is that you can hardly accuse feminism of trying to keep women OUT of the dangerous jobs. In that sense, at least, feminists have been a boon to men.
So you will openly acknowledge that all of feminisms claims of being about equality and breaking down gender barriers was a lie? that it was only ever truly about female empowerment and all those men, such as yourself, who joined up with feminism thinking equality included them can go to hell as far as feminism is concerned?
Well, if you’re convinced – as feminists are – that your gender is systematically oppressed, then working in favor of it IS INDEED working for equality. You might disagree with feminists’ analysis of the situation, but that doesn’t mean that they are lying. A lie presumes that they know the truth and are trying to hide it. The truth, to then, is that fighting for female empowerment is fighting for equality because females are disempowered. Give women power and you’ll create greater equality. This is another point where feminists and MRAs converge IMO: many people in both groups will call… Read more »
Thaddeus, You made some good points there. The confusion about lying is quite simple. If one researcher lies about their research that is one liar, but if ten thousand repeat the lie in ‘good faith’, then there is still one liar, but now ten thousand repetitions of the lie. Misrepresentation and selective quoting are other ways to avoid lying, while being economical with the truth. Accusing your opponent of lying in a debate is risky because lying requires intention and proving intention is very difficult. In my opinion most feminists are not liars, however feminism, nevertheless, is based on lies,… Read more »
Have you read Harry Frankfurt’s essay “On Bullshit”? It’s probably pretty easy to find on-line. There’s truth, there’s lies and then there’s bullshit. “Bullshit” is when we say something with no concern for the truth at all, but with concern for what sort of impact it will make upon its audience. All rhetoric is bullshit, to a certain extent, but true bullshit only occurs when you really don’t care about the facts one way or the other. Again, many MRA’s and feminists share a characteristic: they are bullshit artists. Misrepresenting and selective quoting is a problem both groups have and… Read more »
I disagree.
Because I find a lot of MRA arguments to be based on verifiable facts.
“Mr. Kratch, I think it’s fairly evident that feminists have fought for the right for women to enter into dangerous jobs that were previously closed to them:” Yes, they have established equality of opportunity for all jobs, including the dangerous ones, for those women who “choose” to do them. However, they continue to campaign for the prestigious jobs, demanding more then simply equality of opportunity. If it is unacceptable that woman only represent 33% of the corporate boardrooms (or whatever the number is now), then it is unacceptable that they only make up 7% of the low end jobs. If… Read more »
” If it is unacceptable that woman only represent 33% of the corporate boardrooms (or whatever the number is now), then it is unacceptable that they only make up 7% of the low end jobs.” I find it very hard to believe that women are only 7% of the low end jobs. Does that stat include off-the-books domestic labor, prostitution, agricultural work, child-care and etc? Where does it come from? Smells like bullshit to me, man. In fact, I’d wonder how the category “low end jobs” was created, there. Here in Brazil, women are massively over-represented in low-paying service labor… Read more »
The best and worst jobs are based on: environment, income, employment outlook, physical demands and stress. http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/st_BESTJOBS2010_20100105.html 95% of the worse jobs have a majority male work force. Considering that women have access to more money then they earn (via alimony, child support and intra-relationship transfers in marriage, dating, etc.) you could also make an argument that the ‘income’ criteria be dropped–in which case almost all the pleasant, low-payed jobs would be utterly dominated by women. “I find it very hard to believe that women are only 7% of the low end jobs. Does that stat include off-the-books domestic labor,… Read more »
” she doesn’t want to engage with what the MRAs are actually saying ”
Why should she do anything like that? She is not interested in truth to come to light.
How is having endured attention from other men a rationale why one, specific man owes you anything at all? Does that work in reverse? Are men who’ve endured the visual harassment and spamming of female sexual display owed something from specific women? On the one hand we have, to use an analogy, telemarketers and on the other hand ubiquitous commercials and billboards. Which is worse? Do telemarketers owe me for interfering in my life; do advertisers owe me for cluttering up my brain space? BTW, any woman who believes her mate ‘owes’ her for the actions of other men is… Read more »
Typhon, my point is that Ms. Marcotte’s is a reasonable argument. I did not say that I necessarily agreed with it. Arguments can be reasonable and not necessarily correct. So given the fact that it’s a reasonable point and presuming that Marcotte is arguing in good faith, why does she apparently feel the need to diminuish and demean the MRA point – which is liewise reasonable? I think the only possible explanations a re the following: 1) She’s not arguing in good faith but using a cynical rhetorical ploy to try to attack MRAs perceived character instead of their arguments.… Read more »
“Arguments can be reasonable and not necessarily correct.” I see. Perhaps the word substantive would be a less ambiguous choice then reasonable. Reasonable implies a value judgement. Substantive just says there’s something there to engage with. “Either way, she’s got a problem if she indeed believes that she’s a feminist and feminism is the solution to men’s problems.” I think the main problem is that feminism, or many feminists if you will, will not ceed an inch of the victim high ground. Often they don’t have any substantive(much less reasonable) arguments against some of the more egregious examples of male… Read more »
Oh, there’s definitely something there to engage with. Again, that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s RIGHT. With regards to “victim high ground”, are MRAs any different? Most come across as photo negatives of feminism: what feminists say is good, MRAs say is bad and vice versa. But the two sides seem united in the belief that their gender of choice is the most horribly oppressed, disenfranchised and picked upon. Frankly, I’d be more impressed with MRAs if 90% of their arguments didn’t sound like they came straight out of the feminist playbook, only with the genders reversed. I’m most impressed with… Read more »
Wow. Another point of disconnect. “Frankly, I’d be more impressed with MRAs if 90% of their arguments didn’t sound like they came straight out of the feminist playbook, only with the genders reversed” Really? That hasn’t been my experience at all. The more I looked into the MRA–because I didn’t pop out of my mother’s womb agreeing with MRAs–the more I found reasonable counterarguments to many feminist claims and substantial evidence of both discrimination and oppression of men. And I also developed my own arguments. Which, of course, I find reasonable. Why don’t you describe one MRA argument that you… Read more »
Well, this line was often used against women fighting for equal rights, and turn around is fair play: if you guys and girls don’t like that women now have more equality in this country, how about just heading to a country that doesn’t? Typohblue, please do go. Clearly things are intolerable for you here. Just choose any country where women have less rights than men and be on your way. Bon voyage!
It is my experience that if a man speaks up for men’s rights, he will be perceived in only one of two ways. If he is polite and reasonable about it, he is perceived as weak and whiny. If he is not, IE, if he is assertive, he is perceived as a misogynist and Neanderthal. There is no room for a happy medium. You are ether whining or hateful.
This guy is a prime example, IMHO. Not once is his point addressed. He is simply categorized as hateful and dismissed.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=60266912006&topic=14674
What is perhaps the most ironic is the feminist reaction to men expressing their pain. It is rarely supportive, as can be seen in the feminist articles about the men’s movement above. Men who express their discontent with the current situation are typically called whiners or told that women have it much worse. The hostile feminist responses reinforce the social attitudes that keep men from speaking up. It is understandable that society in general would oppose men appearing vulnerable, but it is rather odd that feminists — who claim to want to deconstruct rigid gender roles — oppose men showing… Read more »
Yes, exactly. Some feminists in the blogosphere loudly proclaim that they want men to be sensitive and to have sympathy and empathy and all that (female feedback was ranting on some thread around here that men had to have this kind of mindset before they could be parents and if they didn’t they were actively, willfully and intentionally abusing any child in their care). They insist that they want equality, that they do want men to be able to have their own spaces to ‘bond’ and ‘share’ and ‘experience life as men’. Mostly, I think they might be well intentioned.… Read more »
Yes and SallyStrange is a perfectly good example of such vile vitriol.
The first clear, well put together, unbiased, unfeminist article on this site. Good luck staying hired…
“We tend to think of women as more empathetic than men, and that may well be true.” Compare the reaction of men to the women’s rights movement with the reaction of women to the men’s rights movement. Compare how common it is for men to ask for 50/50 custody and women to ask for 100% custody. Compare how, when divorce favored men, divorce was rare, but now that divorce favors women, they initiate the vast majority of divorces. One could try to explain this away as the result of men being the protectors and women the protected. But men are… Read more »
Anyway, glad to see your article here, Pelle! Have you seen this video?
http://www.avoiceformen.com/2011/01/29/everyone-in-the-mrm-should-watch-this-video/
I’ve seen it now. Thanks for the heads up.
“I can’t imagine how fast a group of female soldiers would wave the white flag, faced with death.”
Boy, talk about a bunch of anti-women rhetoric. Women are in the military around the world. Not waiving of the flag going on. Might be nice if you educated a bit before foaming up at the mouth with your hatred.
“I can’t imagine how fast a group of female soldiers would wave the white flag, faced with death.” Just did a very quick search and I came up with these links about women warriors. I can understand not wanting to visit your local library or bookstore (all those books might be so taxing to your brain! And no, that has nothing to do with you being a man. It’s just that your a lazy and you have only yourself to blame for that), but not even doing some research on the internet before you spout your anti-woman rhetoric? But why… Read more »
Hello, Dr. Billing!
I will never forget the tears in my 6 year old son’s eyes after seeing a feminist anti-boy dehumanization poster. Just three months ago, that event brought me to the MRM … and to your web site.
I later found that your vision for the MRM is rather tame and accommodating to feminists, and as a result I have seldom gone back. All the same, thanks for your hard work!
Actually AntZ his approach is not tame, just insidious.
Great article, Pelle. Very inspiring. I like the piece about how being vulnerable is akin to being an interior warrior, although I would’ve liked to know more about your definition of what that actually means.
To me, being vulnerable is mainly about not storing undue tension in my body. When I dare voice how I’m impacted, then it doesn’t hurt and I’m free to be proactive again. So in that sense, vulnerability enables me to stay ever vigilant, loving and free.
Great article Pelle.
Jim
I know my wife like’s the warm bed. Now if only I could train my cats to attack. 😉
If you protect your wife Excuse me, what? Are you arming yourself and standing watch at night while wifey sleeps? Are you accompanying her at all times whenever she ventures out of the house, armed and alert and prepared for hand-to-hand combat with your mad karate skillz? Do you live in Somalia, where death by firearm or mortar is a real threat? If not, then I propose that the value of such protection is zero and you don’t get to negotiate some sort of compensation for labor you perform only in your imagination. This is the Western world after all;… Read more »
What makes you think “protect” was meant only in a physical sense ? Overreact much ?
Well what other sense of ‘protect’ are you talking about? XD
Excuse me, what? Are you arming yourself and standing watch at night while wifey sleeps? Are you accompanying her at all times whenever she ventures out of the house, armed and alert and prepared for hand-to-hand combat with your mad karate skillz? Do you live in Somalia, where death by firearm or mortar is a real threat? If not, then I propose that the value of such protection is zero and you don’t get to negotiate some sort of compensation for labor you perform only in your imagination. Proof positive that you don’t know about the part of the script… Read more »
“Excuse me, what?” Yeah, natural reaction. The man thinks he is protecting his wife against whatever is causing all that emotional turmoil she voices all the time, so he covers up. She on the other hand doesn’t think all that drama is such a biog deal, doesn’t think she needs any emotional protecting from anything and so on. He ‘s treating her like she’s made of glass. Doesn’t mean protection wasn’t his motive. “If not, then I propose that the value of such protection is zero” Well the kind of protection I was talking about is of about zero value.… Read more »
Thanks, Sally, it’s good to know that, as a man, the value of my protection to the women around me is absolutely zero. I will keep this in mind and make sure not to make any effort help any woman, under any circumstances, especially if it endangers my own personal safety or comfort.
It is also great to know that there are virtually no hazards to navigate in the Western world that could potentially threaten my survival. I will keep this in mind next time my wife and I are crossing a busy street.
Hey don’t forget carrying the groceries, shoveling snow, fixing the roof, landscaping, cleaning the gutters, reaching for shelves to high, fixing the toilet. Changing the oil. These are all things that feminists have relieved men of…HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dear Friends Can’t You FEEL the Liberation
Good God Almighty….I’m Liberated.
@SS Men are assumed to be the primary aggressors, but you deny they are the primary protectors. So men only have a down side? I spent my whole life being indoctrinated on how much house work women do. If only more women could shut up and listen to their men, they might find out about the housework they do too. Protecting women is part of our job, you don’t even know we are doing it most of the time. I don’t tell me wife how I feel because it will be taken down and used in evidence against me in… Read more »
SallyStrange You are sick and disgusting woman. A truly vile, wretched harmful and toxic woman. You don’t deserve to be here and you don’t deserve to understand men nor have anything to do with men.
“Excuse me, what? Are you arming yourself and standing watch at night while wifey sleeps?”
Yes, though I am sleeping as well.
“Are you accompanying her at all times whenever she ventures out of the house, armed and alert and prepared for hand-to-hand combat with your mad karate skillz?”
Yes, but not with karate skills but tools and implements to solve problems that could make us vulnerable in anyway. I also carry a firearm at times.
If male protection is no longer needed in the west, why do I frequently get asked to walk female co workers to their cars? I’m not especially big or intimidating, and yet it still occurs.
Honestly, if your suppostion is indeed true would you please inform these coworkers that this is a courtesyI no longer need to supply? Thanks.
If theres a strange noise downstairs which may or may not be an armed robber, who goes down to investigate? If a mugger jumps out of the allyway with the knife, which partner gets the privileged and powerful role of human shield? When the ship starts sinking in arctic waters, which partner gets in the lifeboat with the kids? I’m delighted to say I don’t live in Somalia and don’t stand much of a chance of death by rifle fire. But there is definitely an unspoken expectation for me to sacrafice my health, and possibly life in extreme circumstances, in… Read more »
Masculinity was never constructed by what women want. Masculinity was constructed by men themselves. Masculinity was everything femininity was not.
Your last point is definitely true, but the first doesn’t follow from it necessarily.
After all women have a failry big rle in constructing masculinity all thsoe years they are raising boys. Other women also have a fairly big role later in lfe because they execise a very importnat form of selective pressure in dating and mating. Male bosses certainly play a huige role to in ther expectations around work behaviors.
Don’t forget the girls they go to school with Jim. Its amazing that people think that boys somehow exist in a girless/womanless vacuum where they have absolutely no influence of boy behavior.
Yup. It’s probably because people assume that women are the ones trying to get men and relationships, and that men are just into themselves and their ambitions. Last I checked, women dress up to meet each other’s standards of fashion that guys don’t even care about. Then they expect guys to make the move and pay for most of the relationship. And then he is, of course, expendable if he doesn’t meet her standards. She loses one guy, there is more sitting around and a few more guys waiting. Let’s not forget how ignored and overused the word “creep” is.… Read more »
a few corrections.
“wanting anorexinc/unnaturally thin women”.
If she loses one guy, it’s just more sitting around expecting guys to come up and make a move. With even average to unattractive girls getting hit on a few times a week.
Just look at high school, the boys are going into sports and doing manly things to impress girls, not to impress other guys.
That is completely false, it could somewhat be to impres girls, but it had a lot to do with impressing friends, dads etc.Not so much girls because they didn’t care, the one that were best at football for example automaticly got “popular” between guys.
“Masculinity was never constructed by what women want. Masculinity was constructed by men themselves. Masculinity was everything femininity was not.”
No masculinity is defined by what is of use to women and society. You don’t have to worry about being a woman because you have value for the simple fact that you exist. Men have zero value to the opposite sex for the simple fact that we exist.
Gender roles were constructed by necessity, and are highly informed by both the role-bearers desires, societal pressures and pressure from their partner.