The MRA Perspective

Dan Moore of MenZ magazine gives his perspective on fundamental men’s rights issues, breaks down MRA sub-groups, and answers the question: Why do MRAs hate feminism?

My involvement with the Men’s Rights Movement began nearly two decades ago, before Reddit gave MRAs (men’s rights activists) a place to gather, and before I founded MenZ magazine. Back then, there was a thing we call the “Lace Curtain,” a reference to the media’s unwillingness to take a male-sympathetic view of anything, even to the point of suppressing any pro-male comments or letters to the editor. We used to send out an email alert whenever someone got a letter to the editor published in their local paper. It was so rare, we had to celebrate it.

We’ve made a lot of progress as a movement since then. But what kind of progress, exactly? It’s obvious we exist, and that we’re angry and loud—but what do we believe in and stand for today? Explaining the MRM involves exploding so many of the cultural myths we live with that it would take more than one article to cover them. But, if you’ll bear with me, I’m going to try.

♦◊♦

The Issues:

Men have no reproductive rights throughout what we would call the Political West. Men have no right to choose if they are ready for parenthood post-conception, even though women have that right (and staunchly defend it). While the morality of letting men abandon pregnant girlfriends is left in question, the base inequality of the current situation is not. We have a blatant legal double standard, based solely on the sex of the person involved. Either give men the same rights as women, or restrict women’s rights to equal those of men—I don’t care which. But to fail to do so is to promote sexism as official government policy.

As the Department of Health and Human Services concedes,”historically, unmarried fathers have had fewer rights with regard to their children than either unwed mothers or married parents.” For example, as an unintended consequence of the 1996 Welfare Reform Act, which required single mothers seeking public assistance to identify the father and put states in charge of collecting child support, millions of men across the U.S. were declared dads by “default judgment.” As Matt Welch wrote in a 2004 issue of Reason magazine:

[W]hen the government accuses you of fathering a child, no matter how flimsy the evidence, you are one month away from having your life wrecked. Federal law gives a man just 30 days to file a written challenge; if he doesn’t, he is presumed guilty. And once that steamroller of justice starts rolling, dozens of statutory lubricants help make it extremely difficult, and prohibitively expensive, to stop—even, in most cases, if there’s conclusive DNA proof that the man is not the child’s father.

Many states have since passed reform bills, but paternity fraud is still a problem.

While we’re talking about family court, how about those child support tables? They were based in part on hysteria created when sociologist Lenore Weitzman concluded, in a 1985 report, that after a divorce women’s standard of living went down 73 percent, and men’s went up 42 percent. “For several years after the publication of her book, she did not make her data available to other researchers,” according to the Associated Press. In 1996, she admitted that her calculations were faulty. A re-analysis of her numbers “found a 27 percent decline in women’s post-divorce standard of living and a 10 percent increase in men’s—still a serious gap, but not the catastrophic one that Weitzman saw.”

But by that time it was too late. According to the 1996 AP report, Weitzman’s bogus statistic had already been cited in 348 social-science articles, 250 law review articles, 24 appeals and Supreme Court cases, and in President Clinton’s 1996 budget. “This has been one of the most widely quoted statistics in recent history,” said Anne Colby, director of Radcliffe College’s Murray Research Center at the time.

All this is done under “no fault” divorce, which basically means there’s no reason needed to initiate divorce and no acknowledgment of wrongdoing. Even in cases where one spouse is decent and hardworking and upstanding, and the other cheats and drinks too much and is addicted to gambling and takes off with the kids, there can be no assignation of blame. Alone, this is no big deal until you factor in the misandric culture we live in, where accusations of wrongdoing are gendered in the media

Speaking of the law, men have particular concerns when it comes to the justice system. There has been a massive spike in incarcerations in the U.S. over the last 30 years. Nearly all of those are men, and nearly all of those men are poor, and usually black. While some might see this as our society being tough on crime, I see a society locking their “undesirables” out of sight. And while black and white men are often treated differently, the differences in treatment between men and women are substantially greater.

Next: Why Do MRAs Hate Feminists So Much?

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About Dan Moore

Dan Moore has been a Mens Activist for going on two decades now. He's a divorced father of two teenage daughters, and has barely grayed as a result (so far). He is editor and publisher of MenZ Magazine, and creates digital artwork in his spare time.

Comments

  1. “In a nutshell, because nearly everything they say is a lie” So, like this entire post… I literally came here after seeing a HelloGiggles article about dress code discrimination against boys. And as always, the comments are positive about Feminism addressing male issues.

  2. We should be joining forces with white supremacists! A lot of the same ideas (except about whiteness)

  3. I agree that Weitzman’s data should have been corrected long ago. The thing is, that even corrected, men were getting richer after divorce and women were getting poorer. This is an issue we have to address in divorce.

    It’s still true that most married mothers work fewer hours for pay and more at home. The fathers then work more hours for pay and less at home. This is good for the kids and hopefully the parents. The only problem is if the couple divorces. Then the woman has less earning power. She hasn’t been lazy, far from it. So she needs something to make up for that in a divorce.

    The laws need to be gender neutral so a dad who stays home or works part-time can get money in the case of a divorce. Still, so long as mothers are more likely to be the ones doing the child care, actual divorces are going to end up with husbands having to help the women financially after divorce.

    The bottom line, though, is that no matter how you slice it, women aren’t getting rich after a divorce unless they married a rich older guy. Men suffer financially after a divorce, but their ex-wives are just as miserable. Divorce isn’t good for families financially. In the best, friendliest divorce, you don’t have as much to go around once you need to pay for two places to live, etc.

    So the question again is, what is the solution according to the MRM? It’s not like men can pay less and the wives and children will be okay.

  4. I’m confused as to what the MRM wants to have done about the inequality between men and women over deciding whether or not to raise a child. I don’t see any good solution. It would be wrong to allow a father to abandon his child. It would be horrific if men could force women to have abortions when they didn’t want to support the child.

    So are they suggesting that to make things fair, women shouldn’t be allowed to have abortions? Wouldn’t many men be upset by that and end up having to support more children?

    Or do they want men to be able to abandon their babies?

  5. Arielle says:

    Yeah, any blog that doesn’t bash women/feminists while championing MRA men must be anti-male!

    This is why we don’t take MRAs seriously.

  6. “MRAs reject the very notion that “men oppressed women.” It didn’t happen. Ever.”

    You can’t be serious. Sure, men had “rigid gender roles,” too, but at least men had more options. Women couldn’t even get an education. Many girls in other countries still don’t get an education. Girls’ genitals are cut off and sewed up just enough to let urine and menses come out so they “stay pure.” Girls are aborted or abandoned simply for not being boys. Women are often blamed in the Bible for all of humankind’s “sins.”

    Also, feminists fought against these rigid gender roles. MRAs seem hell-bent on “keeping women in their place.” With your logic, I guess white people never enslaved black people.

    • thank you for bringing up genetal mutilation, they cannot complaint about circumcision anymore. i know circumcision is a big issue for these dudes. well guess what? when you were born your DAD, thats right your FATHER prolly had a good amount of say in it, not your “bitchy, tyrannic” mom (who just went through 6-24 hours give or take of extreme pain so you could come into this world.) and if your mom made the sole decision to do it then where the hell was your dad at? certianly not being the upstanding father you people are always talking about. also that has to do with religion, if you were circumsised for religious purposes it was prbably the same religion you hold near and dear in your heart for setting laws and rules and regulations so that men could use women how ever they want and women cant say shit. have a baby, have painful bloody intercourse, THEN complain about circumcision. i pity you all.

      • Seriously? Don’t you realize that women are the ones insist that young girls get circumcised? That they are the ones who hold them down?

  7. I have yet to find a single “MRA” site that isn’t sexist against women and doesn’t blame feminism for every single issue they have. It’s pathetic. At least sites like Feministing doesn’t blame men; it merely talks about women’s issues, and the “MRAs” hate them for that, for whatever reason. “MRAs” don’t even bother to remember that not all feminists are like Valerie Solanas. I believe in equal rights for everyone. I would totally team up with the “MRM” if they didn’t hate on women so much. And I know you’re going to say “well, feminists hate men,” but no, it’s not true. I have never seen women create a site glorifying the killing of men, whereas some “MRAs” made a site dedicated to Marc Lepine, the man who killed more than a dozen innocent women because he hated feminism for encouraging women to enter the workforce and “take the men’s jobs away.” I also see so many “I hate women” videos on YouTube and “I hate women” websites. There is so much hate against women in this culture that I find it laughable when men mention the word “misandry,” while ignoring the sheer amount of misogyny that exists throughout the world.

    And then there are those of you hypocrites that complain about rigid gender roles for men, followed by a rant about how horrible Western women are and how you want a “real woman” from a foreign country. At least feminists abolished gender roles, and they tend to be highly supportive of the LGBT community. Sure, some feminists suck, but there are bad apples in every group. However, with “MRAs,” I have yet to see a single “MRA” that isn’t a total misogynist.

    • Funny you say that. I am not a MRA but I would be on board with feminists if they didn’t hate men so much. Despite certain denials, feminists man-hating reputation was earned and continues to thrive due to their relentless hatred of men and boys.

  8. NWOslave says:

    The marxist feminist hate movement was exported from the former soviet union to the west to destroy the family and transfer all social, economic, educational and political power from men to women with the state being the ultimate authority. Women being the “peasant victim class” weild the guns of the state to incarcerate, hamstring or hurt any man, who are of course the “burgiousse oppressor class” for any reason or just on a whim.

    Are feminists soley to blame? No, most women must also shoulder the resposibility of blame. The claim of NAWALT, (not all women are like that) may but true, but the number is depressingly small. When the Bolsheviks murdered 20 million Ukrainians by starving them to death and some folks took a piece of the communist pie while claiming innosence, they were also to blame. If a woman gorges herself on a piece of fruit from the feminist tree while claiming NAWALT, she is to blame. Silence is also consent, you are also to blame. You can’t pick and choose then cry NAWALT.

  9. Peter, England says:

    There are some important questions about this whole Good Man Project here.
    1) What are you DOING or ADVOCATING for MEN? How are you HELPING them? This is a MEN’s GROUP – yes? Can you please list them, in a nice simple bullet point way? Because that would help assure those who come by out of curiosity. You could have it as a one-page, just 8 points or so. Then you could say HOW you are going to achieve this. Examples below.
    1.1 Positive discrimination (AA) is cheating. End of. Period. Before you start on the history argument, two wrongs don’t make a right. Why take it out on a 22-year-old guy going for a job?
    1.2 Forced male circumcision of neonates is a human rights issue. Why is it OK?
    1.3 The suicide right is three times higher for men than women
    1.4 Men have poorer health outcomes and die earlier
    1.5 Not all rape defendents are guilty, why are they named in the media before the trial. Human Rights Watch reports that male rapes in USA prisons are higher than those reported for females
    1.6 In advertising, men are presented as incapable. If anybody presented a woman in that way there’d be an outcry
    1.7 Divorce takes most of the assets (and the children) and gives to the women
    1.8 You can do your own number 8.

    2) You seem to believe men are culpable and need to ‘learn’ or ‘do penance’. (The walking in high heels at universities is just an exercise in humiliation. Saps, jerks and nitwits).
    Let me alter this slightly – yes, some guys need to: learn manners, be a gentleman in terms of quitting the bad temper thing, control their money sensibly, go to the gym, take an interest in other people’s problems – etc. So you could do a practical self-improvement piece. But you seem to have a blame culture against the male sex – again, what do you hope to gain by this? Why would any guy want to take full responsibility for the actions of 1% of his gender?

    3) The web-site seems to have an awful lot in common with feminist sites. That’s kind of strange, isn’t it? For a men’s group.

  10. Kate says:
    March 10, 2011 at 8:39 am
    Choice starts at the choice to not have sex with people who you don’t want to have children with.

    —-

    This is exactly what MRAs are telling to all men.
    And this is exactly what feminists do not want to hear and why they dislike MRAs so much.

    MRAs recommend to study the laws in your Western feminist-orientated country, and if you think, it’s not a good choice to have a family/children because biased laws are against you as a man, say NO and stay single. Reject any contact with Western females.

    This MRA-advice helps a lot to avoid certain mistakes in the life of a Western man which might financially ruin him over decades.

    And yes, the Men’s Rights Movement is growing, and many young Western men prefer to remain single. Many divorced older men do not consider marriage again.

    Why to do something which might harm you? any reason for that?

    MRAs do not hate feminists, but feminists hate MRAs.

  11. Kate says:
    March 10, 2011 at 8:39 am
    Choice starts at the choice to not have sex with people who you don’t want to have children with.

    —-

    This is exactly what MRAs are telling to all men.
    And this is exactly what feminists do not want to hear and why they dislike MRAs so much.

    MRAs recommend to study the laws in your Western feminist-orientated country, and if you think, it’s not a good choice to have a family/children because biased laws are against you as a man, say NO and stay single. Reject any contact with Western females.

    This MRA-advice helps a lot to avoid certain mistakes in the life of a Western man which might financially ruin him over decades.

    And yes, the Men’s Rights Movement is growing, and many young Western men prefer to remain single. Many divorced older men do not consider marriage again.

    Why to do something which might harm you? Any reason for that?

    Kate is correct. Men have a choice. The choice to say NO!

  12. Why does The Good Men Project hate men?

  13. I’d just like to say…
    This website or blog or whatever you like to call it, is extremely glitchy.

    How do users or members have the patience to deal with it?

    A site this poorly designed would last about 4 days in the MRA community.

  14. I was kind of skeptical of this MRA thing until Fannie showed up. I’m so sheltered since I’ve surrounded myself with people who like men in my personal life, that I totally forget what a nuisance feminists are. They want to spread their unhappiness and bitterness everywhere. And sadly based on this essay it seems they’ve succeeded. I hope some of you bitter men find women who truly stand by you and support you. I still think they exist and I strive to be one every day.

    • Kate, i’m wiht you on that. I do not have any female friends who hate men (well, i do know one woman who is very bitter about her choices in life, but she’s not a close friend, but someone i know through my work). But my close friends, we are all man lovers!

      All I look for in a partner is someone who I can share life with, and important to do things apart, get on well, laugh a lot and who has a high libido!! I look for laughter and someone who is happy in themselves. I am not interested in how much a guy earns as I am my own boss and earn my own money. It would make me very happy to make my other half happy. Unfortunately at the moment I live in an area which is filled with couples and marrieds and need to move somewhere where there are actual single people!!

      Like kate, i also hope some of you guys find good women out there. We do exist. honest!

  15. Wow, great article, the first good one on this site probably. I’m shocked they let you put it up at all since it’s actually telling it how it is and not how some feminist is speculating it is

  16. This site is beyond feminist propaganda, I’d be ashamed to be any part of it

  17. My life is worth so much more than what feminism, the media and women in general would have me believe. It is my opinion that there is no point in arguing anymore and what men & boys need to do is just learn to live without women. My life has meaning and is precious to me. I don’t need it run by angry women, they can have the manginas for that. If we really want to take their power away there is really only 3 things we need to do. #1 At all costs don’t get them pregnant. #2 don’t marry them. #3 don’t let them move in with you. Let them scream all they want, if we follow these 3 simple rules it won’t matter what they do. We’ll be to busy enjoying our own lives to notice them. The pigs are starting to squeal, and I love it.

    • Just marry a cool girl from over seas, there are plenty of women in other countries that still know how to treat a man and how to be a woman

      • I know, they don’t, like, talk back and shit.

      • This only works if you live THERE! If you bring such a woman here, Feminism will infect her to the core and she’ll f**k you over the first chance she gets. You may treat her as equal, but according to feminism there is no equality.

      • Where do you guys live? Move somewhere else.

        You can have Dworkin reading barely even tolerate men difficult woman like our friend Fannie here who probably lives in some coastal overpriced city.

        Or you can have a woman from fly over country who actually likes men! And who doesn’t want to change them into pathetic simpering man-children. And they don’t like women who sleep around and abandon their children. You can have personality, intelligence, like to argue…and still like men.

        • Alphabeta Supe says:

          No Kate, it you and your species that will be outbred.America can’t protect you any moer. Give it another 20 years and those ‘foreign’ countries will be America. Your grandchildren will be Muslim and brown.

    • David Messner says:

      You just summed it up nicely. MGTOW. Spend your time, your money, your energy, and your mental and emotional resources on things that will benefit YOU as a MAN. We’ve spent a lot of unappreciated effort bowing to the whims of selfish women and feminists.

      I, for one, will never willfully subsidize another woman again.

      You selfish, arrogant, entitled women can all go to hell. OI’ll be in my man cave creating some more badass manly shit with my badass manly hands.

    • Dan is another angry emasculated male who is impotent to stand up to feminists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plkeKMTDM9g

      • Says the stark raving lunatic from Manhood101. You pusbags have been trying to poison the well for long enough, haven’t you?

        Take your woman hating everyone-is-queer-but-internet-tough-guys-like-me bullshit and peddle it somewhere else. There’s a reason why every single MRA site I’m aware of – certainly all the majors – have come out openly attacking you people as the 5th column bullshit artists you really are. You have no backing from anyone (unless it’s covert) in this discussion – you are NOT MRAs, and you’re all unwelcome anywhere as far as I know.

        It’s hardly surprising you’re here though, considering your site and TGMP have the same goals in mind, even though you attack it from opposite ends….you want the Mens Movement to implode.

        All I can say, is you’re out of your minds if you think that’s gonna happen.

  18. such a good article, even if it is heavily edited. Please post the original if you can, I’d love to read it as I always fell more on the PUA side of things rather than MRA.

  19. Alphabeta Supe says:

    The content of recent articles marks a marginal shift in attitude here at TGMP but its language of it’s chief contributors for the most part is still as full of shaming and mockery towards the MRM as always. This merely feeds the MRM so it will only grow in response.

    Before I expound on why growth is inevitable, I’ll pose the question I always pose to those who question the motives of MRA’s:

    What possible motive could an undefinable number of men, growing by the thousands daily worldwide, who’ll probably never meet in person, have for banding together in the unforgiving environment of the internet to share and express their feelings, if it isn’t to thwart a rapidly rising evil?

    If this article is anything to go by, TGMP seems to be starting to see the emptiness of their previous answers to this question. Soon, its testicles will drop, its voice will break and it will no longer be drowned out by the whelps of the feminist dog-pack that anoints all men everywhere who speak in their own defense as evil.

    While most women could be characterized more accurately as herd animals rather than pack animals, most simply don’t care about men when they feel helpless. Their response is like this article – shaming and mockery. In many cases it doesn’t even to occur to women that a man might ever be in need.

    I speak from personal experience. Most women who have seen me in trouble start with a look of total non-comprehension on their faces and it’s only after I emphatically articulate my need that it seems to register. In my experience, most women haven’t the faintest idea what a man in need looks like. The MRM is for these men.

    The problem is not so much that women don’t care about men, but that most men are invisible to most women, so the humanity of these men doesn’t even register. Most women seem to care for the men in their personal frame, or even random strangers in trouble who fit their notion of ‘safe’, ‘respectable-looking’ or even ‘cute’, but they’d not stop to help a random man who falls outside of these often very narrow perceptions. My guess is that 90% of random men fall outside the lines. The MRM is for these men.

    This is one of the key areas in which masculinity differs from femininity. While the statistic is arbitrary, it’s a lot more convincing to say that 90% of women are fully visible to all men than the other way around, so this dichotomy of perception must create an unrighteous imbalance. The MRM is for men who are poorly treated by women.

    Consider this true statement and reflect on how often it is forgotten:

    “Masculinity is the possession of strength for the purpose of female protection rather than expression of strength for the purpose of their coercion.”

    I’ve read hundreds, perhaps thousands of descriptions of femininity, but I’ve never seen this description, or anything like it, used to characterize women. In other words, male strength provides the intrinsic freedoms in society that women take for granted yet it’s demonized by almost everyone. The MRM is for men who are demonized unnecessarily.

    Speaking of protection, with the demise of Marriage 1.0, this flow of provision and protection services, this ‘Patriarchy’ no longer has a counter-flow, so this feminized social system has become unstable. Since the state is now the primary protector and provider of women, and sex is no longer a marital entitlement for men, men have little incentive to do anything at all for women, least of all protect them. There are literally thousands of ways in which a woman can obtain the provisioning and protective services of Big Daddy government that don’t require anything from men but their taxes. If women hijack the workplace, what’s left for men but the cackling laughter of feminists? The MRM is for men whose livelihoods are being systematically drained away by a workplace environment that is no longer suitable or legally safe for men.

    This brings me to female tendency to hypergamy, or to marry up, which I alluded to in a previous paragraph. Since most women set their male standard against the 10% of men of whom they perceive as having higher status than they, it comes as no surprise that the other 90% – the invisible men are seen as afflatus. It’s a rare woman indeed who is able to recognize, let alone respect, the independent social value of men whom she has herself rejected as potential mates. These men, in the vast majority, the machinery of society, are systematically being replaced by the at-call appliances of an ever more feminized state. The men are not redundant because they’re not productive or bad, but because they’re invisible to a feminized society. The MRM is for men whose social protections and guarantees are no longer valued.

    This is why the MRM exists. It exists not only FOR the 90% who fall outside the protections of a feminized system – it IS them. Unlike feminism, it’s not an ideology and it doesn’t exist for its own sake. It’s a response to the gender apartheid and cultural misandry promoted and purveyed by the corrupt ideology we commonly refer to as ‘feminism’. It comprises every deserving man who feels that the state no longer treats him as fundamentally vital and virtuous. The MRM may be better understood not as an organization, but as a process. An organic process.

    In that regard the MRM can no more be stopped than Mother Nature. You can falsely represent it, complain about it, wax lyrical about it, express outrage over it, but you can’t stop it. The MRM carries in its heart the essence of masculinity, society’s engine room, which everyone knows won’t stop until its function is fulfilled. The stronger and more pervasive feminism and cultural misandry become, the larger the MRM will grow. Try to stop it and it will grow. It’s that simple.

  20. There is nothing equal in faminism, it is just their way of recruiting people, they tell people, “oh, so you are happy with women voting? then YOU are a feminist” No, you can want what’s best for your mothers, sisters, daughters, girlfriends, wives and grannies without being a feminist, in fact not being a feminist is what’s best for them because feminism once you see it for what it is, is just a small group of narrow minded people with their own view on how the world should be, or more accurately, how the world should behave according to them.

  21. This is the most bogus ‘movement’ I’ve ever heard of.

    • Reading and discussing things with various MRM activists on here, I’m inclined to say the movement is more akin to a conspiracy theory than a political activism group. Specifically with regard to the huge amount of power and influence it claims feminists possess; ignoring other issues such as race and class; purporting to be constantly oppressed; and a complete dismissal of arguments as part of the conspiracy.

      The only other time I’ve come up against such a brick wall is trying to argue with truthers.

      • “more akin to a conspiracy theory than a political activism group”

        So…”argumentum ad hominem as it discounts anything an MRA says purely for being a feminist without having regard to the content of their statements – it attacks the speaker not the argument.”

        Why not just address the issues? You’re proving my point.

      • Great article, feminists are absolutely opposed to men’s rights and honest discussion of the issues.

      • You believe all men everywhere conspired to ‘keep women down’, across borders, cultures, and even battlefields….

        And YOU accuse US of wearing tinfoil hats?

  22. “MRAs reject the very notion that “men oppressed women.” It didn’t happen. Ever.”

    This statement is so ludicrous and hateful. It honest makes me move from seeing MRM as internet trolls to an actual hate group. This sounds like Neo-Nazi groups that deny the Holocaust ever happened.

    SICK.

    • thehermit says:

      If you believe that there’s an International Secret Male Conspiracy to oppress women, you’re a feminist (and a lunatic as well). This is the starting point of everything we’re arguing here.

      • I don’t believe there is an International Secret Male Conspirary…

        It’s all pretty much out in the open.

        Cannot honestly debate me thus call me a lunatic?

  23. Why Do MRAs Hate Feminists So Much?
    While I’m not an MRA and while I don’t hate feminists I can say this. The contradictions I’ve seen among feminists makes me not like them that much as a whole. Yeah there are good and resonable ones here and there but on the whole they seem to refuse to live up to the very standards they are imposing on everyone else.

    • The ideological inconsistency of Feminism is the impetus behind the Mens Movement. We are, quite literally, an entirely reactionary movement. We are simply responding to the stimuli we are presented with.

      But Feminism has ALWAYS been this ideologically inconsistent. It has also had anti-male and anti-family sentiment at it’s core since it’s inception. They openly stated as much on numerous occasions.

      They simply rely on NAFALT arguments, and gynocentric desire to excuse female evil, to enable them to continue with impunity. In fact, they are so unused to being challenged, that they still can’t formulate a decent argument. Or for that matter, as Amanda admirably demonstrates, even acknowledge the issues we’re concerned about.

      • But Feminism has ALWAYS been this ideologically inconsistent.
        I have to disagree with the always there. Sure its seem to have gotten out of hand but it hasn’t always been that way and despite the venomous spew from the likes of Marcotte there are good and reasonable ones out there. They are certainly hard to find yes but they do exist.

        Or for that matter, as Amanda admirably demonstrates, even acknowledge the issues we’re concerned about.
        Ok its true that Amanda was just looking for a fight (which is why I’m frankly not all that mad at the reaction she got from some of the folks over there). But as I say there are those among them that actually can aknowledge your concerns. And can do it without the feminist PR spin. (Because yes I do think it would kill some of them to own up to the fact that some of the things they are so hard up to label as feminist predate them just as much as the things that harm men they spend a great deal of time complaining about predating feminism.) You know that whole, “We won’t do it for you but if you do it yourself you have to do it under the banner of feminism or it doesn’t count.” attitude.

        • Well, to be fair my comment was on their ideological integrity, which has always been suspect…not the level to which they stoop being so extreme.

          On the second point, there very well may be feminists that are ‘not like that’.

          And they accomplish jack. And have no visibility.

          So really, their existence only serves as cover for those who are of the man hating variety. And as such, they deserve no consideration as an entity. I’ll be more than happy to reevaluate this, should ‘good’ feminists ever materialize in any kind of numbers.

  24. When Will the Men’s Rights Movement Go Away?
    I hope never. You can argue it needs focus and refinement (just like feminism does) but going away is not necessary.

  25. Cliff Leek says:

    The “Good” Men Project has sunk to a new low. I will no longer be reading or supporting this website in any way.

    • The feminists website await you.

      Oh and thanks for proving for the hundreth time that feminists and manginas do not fight for “equality” (as evidence by your hostile attitude when the GMP “dares” to post a pro mens rights peace.)

      Again thanks for proving our point and feministing awaits your arrival.

  26. Dan, you forgot the predatory tranny MRA subgroup. That would be me. 🙂

    • Predatory tranny?

      Oh God, please tell me they can install shark teeth now. I always wanted shark teeth. 🙂

      Brings to mind an old Saturday night Live skit….(land shark) “I’m only a porpoise ma’am”…. heh.

      Here’s a question though. If you’re transsexual (and I’m not sure from which to which), what exactly is your interest in these issues? I’m not being exclusionary, just curious. Because it seems to me you’d be paradoxically more disinterested and emotionally invested in gender issues at the same time.

      I’m assuming also that your case was more one of “I’d rather be this way” than “I’m ashamed to be this, so I’m going to change”. I’ve met both of those attitudes before.

      Thoughts?

      • Thanx for dropping a line. If you click my name, you can go to my blog (http://fauxwhore.com) which has more information about me than you could possibly want. Why an MRA? I’ve lived much of my life presenting as male. I am well aware of the discrimination of being thought of as the standard human being. As a person who grew up on the lower economic scale, I am offended by middle-class and upper-middle class white women (whose father’s paid for their college and their trip to Paris) telling me that I am their oppressor. I am also offended by the patently mendacious advocacy research and propoganda of a movement that is purportedly about equality, i.e. feminism. The average feminist I come into contact with is so imbued with white western prosperity privilege it makes me want to vomit.

  27. I’ll ask Paul to put the original up at A Voice For Men sometime real soon…

  28. This is just sad.

  29. I have to say I hope the MRA’s get the equality with regard to children being born/chosen to be born etc happens sooner rather than later. I think it is insane to think that the woman is automatically the better parent. All this maternal stuff – its bollocks. Many women do not have a maternal instinct.
    I have heard women suggest tampering with condoms to get the baby they want or stop taking the pill and thinking it is entirely within their ‘rights’ to do so if the man doesn’t want to have a kid. It makes me utterly ashamed of being lumped in with women like that. Makes me feel sick to the stomach.

    I do think though that when you choose to have sex with someone – you are taking a risk and that is something as adults, regardless of sex, we have to take responsibility for (and i realise this is an even bigger risk for men at the moment), but when you have sex, you take the risk of gaining an STI or a child. I do’nt think its a ‘feminist’ viewpoint – i think its just something that adults have to take into account. But many adults have sex when completely shitfaced drunk, out on a big night and the idea of condoms or contraception can go out the window. My dad used to say he’d double bag it if he thought the woman was a bit dodgy.

    I also want to add that i agree with the PUA’s wiht regard to women being high libido sex lovers, I have no idea where the men want more sex more often thing came from – does anyone know? Is that a feminist thing to vilify men too?

    • No, that was a cultural myth perpetuated by women to give them as much ‘sexual power’ as possible. Convincing men that women don’t really like sex, and that men have to work for it, is why so many men fall all over themselves to please women. They think they have to.

      What they don’t usually realize is that the guy who fawns on them, takes them out for supper and to the theatree, etc… That guy is usually goingto be taking her home and getting a peck on the cheek.

      And then she is going to call a guy when she gets inside to come over and pound her into the mattress.

      Men would be FAR better off learning how to attract women (NOT ‘please them”) than trying to worm their way into their pants with obsequious lickspittle gynocentrism. Frankly, men who try to buy their way into women’s hearts would deserve what they get, if they were ever told anything different (by women or men) to do.

      What value can women get from this?

      That depends, do you like men, or supplicants?

      • The theory that women dislike sex or have a low sex libido actually comes from evolutionary biology or more specifically a poor generalization made by Darwin (among many) that the mating rituals seen amongst birds (and other species) held true across nature – i.e. that the female was reluctant to mate and the male must impress with mating displays. However this theory has been disproven thanks to research on primates – specifically bonobos, our closest primate relative, in which both males and females have high sex drive as evidenced by testicles lying outside the body, female copulation sounds, female orgasms, etc.

        This argument has nothing to do with feminism except that feminism has long argued that women do desire and enjoy sex as much as men, the complete opposite of what you’re claiming, as demonstrated by innumerable feminist books and publications.

        • Feminists may have argued that women do desire and enjoy sex as much as men, but they certainly have not argued that women enjoy sex with men. What was that about fish and bicycles?

          • Well I’m happy if they don’t have sex with men, leaves more choice for women like me who do love men and don’t want to play the effing boring games that are out there!! drives me nuts.

  30. “[M]en have simply forgotten how to push the right buttons.”

    Since when was it the right of men, or anyone else, to push anyone else’s buttons? Although MRAs seem to have a few pretty big buttons that get pushed pretty well regularly.

  31. “The consequences of an unplanned pregnancy are far greater [for] a male.”

    Pff.

  32. Somebody just slit my throat right now. These MRA groups are ticking me off more than ever now. This IS NOT helping the MRA movement! Rather, this is highlighting even more why people cannot take you seriously.

    Stop referencing radical groups like NOW and start looking at the everyday feminist. The Sexademic is one feminist who fights for men’s rights. Look her up. She’s a wonderful lady.

    As for women never being oppressed: what a load of crock. Both sexes have been oppressed throughout history. However, the difference lies in who is oppressing who. Men have oppressed other men while also oppressing other women. Do you really deny that women did not have access to political power, because they certainly didn’t. John Adams wife tried to gain access to political power, but her husband simply dismissed her, saying men have all the power, why would they want to give it up, and basically to get back to the kitchen. Who kept women from voting? Men. Men also allowed women the right to vote, but historically they didn’t. Seriously, actually STUDY history to understand how this whole oppression thing really works. I can definitely believe women held each other back, but when women did want access to the men’s sphere of things, men denied them that access because they were considered weak, inferior, and akin to children. Just look at historical quotes about women from men to see what I’m talking about.

    http://www.angelfire.com/or3/tss2/sexist1.jpg
    http://www.angelfire.com/or3/tss2/sexist2.jpg (By the way, these were scanned from a book, which, if you know what that was, you’d understand men did oppress women.)
    http://www.evesjournal.com/Misogynistic_Quotes/index2.html

    When I looked up historical sexist quotes about men, there were none on record. I’m pretty sure women historically made sexist quotes, but who wrote history? Men.

    • Stop referencing “radical groups” like the NATIONAL ORGANIZATION of WOMEN? You mean THE feminist organization, the Mother of them all…is now “readical” and dismissively fringe-ey? Wow, you take your NAFALT seriously hey?

      But your hatred and contempt of all things male comes shining through like a beacon. People like you, are my movments best friend. Your hateful bigotry the best indictment of Feminism I could ask for.

      Hell, I couldn’t even describe you to others, they would think I was creating a “feminist strawman”….

      • Well factory what do you expect there response to be when the largest feminist organization posts “action alerts” against shared parenting bills?

        http://www.glennsacks.com/enewsletters/enews_11_28_06.htm

        They are forced to write it off as “radical”, yup but overall with the exception of the largest feminist orgs in America (NOW, AAUW – who was notorious for promoting a fake girl crisis in the 90′s as documented in christina hoff sommers two books “Who Stole Feminism” and “The War Against Boys”) feminists are just fighting for equality.

        • That’s the part I love…

          They ‘really care about men’, and are ‘only fighting for equality’….but when you start listing off the anti-male aspects of feminism, and they commence NAFALTing them, there’s almost nothing but a ‘personal’ belief system left.

          That’s right, one you eliminate the sexist hate groups from the Feminist pantheon…there’s nothing left but the person claiming they’re “not all like that”.

          It’d be hilarious if it wasn’t so damned depressing.

          • I think I catch the play here, there is hard and soft feminists here, The lunatics depend on the soft fems to tow the political line and when they don’t they jump in with shaming tactics. The soft fems are ideological fodder to wear the MRA’s down. I counted three rad fems so far. This is a feminist outpost staffed by soft feminists. Attack with information.

            • So…. it’s keith’s position that feminism is basically a “conspiracy” to “wear down” MRAs. And they say feminists are paranoid.

              NEWFLASH: Not everything is about men and MRAs!

              • Everything in this thread certainly is! Were you not paying attention?

                • Everything?

                  Quite a bit of this thread has been about women and feminists, too. Like, how much they suck.

                  I seem to remember Mary Daly being mentioned, and Andrea Dworkin, and Catherine MacKinnon, and women who can be bought from overseas, and feminists and oh yeah, more feminists.

                  • bought? Sure, because how dare a poor brown skin woman willingly share her life with a relatively better off western man? Correct? The brown woman apparently is capable of doing everything a man can do. Except, when it comes to deciding which man to associate with – unless under watchful eyes of feminists. I wonder why men are expected to treat such incapable infantile persons as equals anyway?!

                    This is the reason I have a T-shirt that says

                    Feminists are stupid throw rocks at them

                  • That’s because feminists DO suck. It’s a hateful ideology that I personally would love to see wiped off the face of the Earth. Feminism is the source of many of our problems, and Feminists are our major opponents…why shouldn’t we hate you?

                    Rhetorical. I don’t care what your answer is.

                    If Feminists were anything close to what they say they are, there wouldn’t be a mens movement.

                    • Factory

                      Lol, talk about hyperbole

                    • But what’s your opinion on websites such as Cheateau Heartise, or the alphagameplan? Please don’t tell me those are MRM websites soley supporting men’s rights in the judicial system. I’ve read the articles and comments, and they spew hate towards women and encourage submissiveness. They have more articles on women’s inherent nature and how a women should look rather than actual issues you claim the MRM stand for.

                  • Dear Fannie,

                    As a researcher into sexual tourism and trafficking of women in Brazil – a country that is almost always pointed to when first world feminists want examples of poor women who are exploited by evil first world men – let tell you, in no uncertain terms, that the VAST majority of Brazilian women who marry gringos are NOT “bought overseas”.

                    As a white gringo who is married to a black Brazilian woman, I cannot tell you how often my mate and I have encountered the stereotype you are feeding here from North American women (and many upper class white Brazilian women as well). My wife, Ana Paula has a PhD and is a post-doctoral fellow at one of the most prestigious universities in Brazil. She’s got a better education than most people posting here and makes more money than I do. When we travel to your country, she is constantly harassed by Americans – both men and women – who believe that she’s some poor little third world chippie “bought” by evil ol’ me.

                    I would suggest that, unless you’ve actually spent a lot of time living in one of these “overseas” countries you’re on about, you curb your prejudices when it comes to “their” women. Because frankly, the presumption that “overseas women” can be bought (as opposed to American women who would never DREAM of letting a man’s financial status affect her judgement about him), reeks of bigotry.

                    • “Young children are supplying an increasing demand from foreign tourists who travel to Brazil for sex holidays, according to a BBC investigation. Chris Rogers reports on how the country is overtaking Thailand as a destination for sex tourism and on attempts to curb the problem.” -BBC

                      Glad you found a well educated woman that is you same age and equal in other aspects.

                      Please do not try to feign that in any way is responsive or indicative of what sex tourists do.

                    • And why on earth do you think I was specifically talking about you, Thaddeus? I was referring specifically to commenters here who joked about how much better mail-order brides are than us cunty American women.

                    • Thaddeus G. Blanchette says:

                      Do you need to be talking specifically to me, Fanny? My reaction to your “bought women overseas” comment has nothing to do with me, specifically, and a lot to do with the whole “Western women are superior” meme you seem to be articulating here. I just happen to be aware that said meme is generally false because my wife and I are on the receiving end of a lot of prejudice by American and European women who presume that because Ana comes from Brazil, she needs must be “bought”.

                      I looked over the comments above and I may be wrong, but it seems that the only person using the term “male order brides” here is you. You seem to be presuming that American men who marry foreign women must be buying them. Now, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I didn’t see the comment you’re reacting to where someone says “male order brides are better than c*nty American women”. Would you like to point it out, please?

                    • Mods probably trashed it.

              • thehermit says:

                It’s more like feminists are scared of us, with a good reason. The MRM is a death threat for feminsm.

              • It’s a conspiracy of humor !

                NEWSFLASH: it is so, just cause I said so and if that’s not good enough then just cause.

                Actually Fannie I’m a bit of a boxing fan, with much more interest toward the subtleties and psychology of boxing. I’ve read all the articles and comments. I also have a touch of asperger’s so I have a tendency toward pattern recognition. Particularly behavioral patterns, sometimes it’s like slow motion comedy.

                I have to ask……right after the word “So” in your response, did you have your hands on your hips, or your arms crossed. That’s what I pictured, but then I pictured you typing the dots with your nose, while your arms were crossed. You see that’s what I mean about slow motion comedy.

                And oh your right, not everything is about men and MRA’s ……….thank god.
                BUT, everything about men and MRA’s is about men and MRA’s

                This is where I give you a free shot to call me anything you want without offending me. Against the possibility that you have no humor.

                • What feminists? It now represents so many disparate, often totally opposite, ideologies that it’s become little more than a feelgood label attached to any old bigotry to give it the appearance of legitimacy.

            • You should specify that they don’t have to actually be conscious of doing this Keith.
              It happens organically.

      • “But your hatred and contempt of all things male comes shining through like a beacon.”

        Yeah, not so much, Cap’n.

    • Stop referencing radical groups like NOW and start looking at the everyday feminist.

      Think about your statement for a moment. The National Organization of Women is the most prominent feminist organization. Members of NOW are frequently featured in articles, interviews, conferences, and forums as authorities on women’s issues and the leaders of the feminist movement. Why should people look to random feminist bloggers rather than the public face of feminism? Better yet, why are the “everyday” feminists not pushing “radical” groups like NOW out of the limelight so that “everyday” feminist voices are the ones that get heard?

      Yes, there are plenty of hostile voices in the men’s movement. However, virtually all of those voices are from bloggers who are not directly involved in any advocacy. This to feminists. The hostile voices in the feminist movement do not just come from bloggers like Amanda Marcotte, Hugo Schwyzer, or David Futrelle. They come from leaders in the feminist movement like NOW, and are either ignored or supported by the broader feminist community.

      Again, there is plenty to criticize the men’s movement over, but the notion that none of their arguments are valid and that the hostile voices represent the whole movement is ludicrous. Just as women are turned off by men’s activists lambasting all women for the actions of a few, men are turned off by feminists mocking men’s concerns. I am not a men’s rights activist, yet feminists attack me bringing up discrimination or sexual violence against males. I am not hostile or rude, nor do I resort to insults or ad hominem attacks, yet not only do feminists lump me in with the hostile men’s rights activists, they treat my concerns as a sign of abject misogyny.

      When it comes sexism, feminists are in no position to throw stones.

    • Some of the early church fathers on women (http://www.fideidefensor.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=churchfathers&action=display&thread=570):

      St. Clement of Alexandria (2nd Century, Greek Father of the Church) : “Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman…the consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame”

      Tertullian (2nd Century, African Father of the Church) : Women are “the devil’s gateway.”

      St. Jerome (4th and 5th Centuries, well known scholar) : “Woman is the root of all evil.

      St. John Chrysostom (4th and 5th Centuries, Bishop of Constantinople) : “It does not profit a man to marry. For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?…The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food … If you consider what is stored up behind those lovely eyes, the angle of the nose, the mouth and the cheeks you will agree that the well-proportioned body is only a whitened sepulchre.”

      St. Augustine (5th Century, Doctor of the Church and Bishop of Hippo) : “I don’t see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?”

      Boethius (6th Century Christian Philosopher) : “Woman is a temple built upon a sewer.”

      St. Thomas Aquinas (13th Century) : “Good order would have been wanting in the human family if some were not governed by others wiser than themselves. So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in men the discretion of reason predominates.”

      Shall I continue, boys?

      I contend that these men have been a bit more influential and powerful than the handful of feminists that you regularly cite. What was that about women not being oppressed, again?

      Mmm-hmmm, that’s what I thought.

      • It is interesting that every one of your citations is dated prior to when the bible was put into print for common consumption. Additionally each is referenced from the church or an official. While it has taken 500 years since the time of it’s printing to debunk the hatred of the christian doctrine and place the modern church in a new context with much less political power evidenced only in the last 25 years, the citations above do not represent common thought. Not now or at the time they were penned or stated. These positions were not on the lips of the common man. Modern feminism however has taken it’s popular hatred of men and placed it on the lips of the average women. In my mind there is a difference. Given the political power of the church in the past, I tend to view your citations as political and systemic oppression of women in conjunction to society as a whole.

        There are two popular feminist saying that cause me to reflect.

        Sex that is not initiated by a woman is rape
        Every man is a rapist

        These statements suggest that sex is not a human experience but a female experience. They further suggest that love and sex do not converge in the nature of a man. But are rather experienced separately and exclusive of one another. Much like someone who steals would be a thief, these statements suggest that sex is a commodity of merchant status and trade.
        It invites me to consider that rape may only represent a temporary seizure of commodity, like theft. I find these statements denigrating to women.

      • I think I catch the play here, there is hard and soft feminists here, The lunatics depend on the soft fems to tow the political line and when they don’t they jump in with shaming tactics. The soft fems are ideological fodder to wear the MRA’s down. I counted three rad fems so far. This is a feminist outpost staffed by soft feminists. Attack with information.

      • Troll King says:

        So? You have proven what exactly? That women have always been the way they are? I look at these quotes and I look around my college campus and I look at my feminist mother and I look at ex gfs who I tried to love and I look at teachers who were female and horrible and I see what women are and how they act in popular culture and I come to one conclusion. Women haven’t, according to these quotes, changed in a millenia. I constantly hear women talk about being empathetic and nurturing but I haven’t seen it. Hell, the popular anthem of my youth in the 90s was….”I’m a bitch, I’m a lover, I’m a saint, I’m a sinner….so on”

        There are biological differences between men and women and one major one is how we see the other sex. Men are born loving women, while women are born hating men and maleness. There have been studies showing that by 3rd grade girls think that boys are stupid and inferior. I have struggled with this so much in my life. WHY DO YOU WOMEN HATE US SO MUCH? I can understand that we may not all look like brad pitt or have his charm but WTF? In my 20 odd yrs of life I have done nothing but try to love and help and protect and nurture women. I have been luckier than most guys in the sex game but it is always women that treat love as a game. I have seen scorn heaped on decent men for nothing more than wanting to love and cherish a woman and i have experienced the same.

        Let’s put it this way. Please tell me one mainstream joke where the punchline, the funny part, goes something like this, “something….something…hahahaha…I then cut out that bitches ovaries…..hahahaha….audience laughs….”????

        I was born during the 80’s and grew up in the grrl power 90’s and I have seen teachers I trusted laugh at Lorena Bobbit jokes. I haven’t actually seen or met a woman that didn’t laugh at those jokes. This goes for gfs, my mother and aunt, teachers and professors, women I have worked with and women I have been friends with. Why so much hate for maleness? No man is born a misogynist….misandry creates misogyny.

      • Tertullian and St. Clement are considered heretics from what i know. Chrysostom wrote a whole treatise praising marriage, but maybe he had multiple personality disorder. I don’t think any of them liked women very much either way…

        • Really, Kate. You need the smelling salts whenever misandry is mentioned, but you overlook the early church fathers misogyny?

          And, I guess you’ve never heard of St. Paul, either?

          • No, it’s just hilarious because it’s so out of context in terms of both Christian history (I’m not a Christian BTW) and MRA. Men’s rights dudes are overwhelmingly atheists.

      • I’ve read all books by Andrea Dworking, 2 by Mary Daly, and 2 by Catherine MacKinnon, including many of her shorter articles. But thanks for your little lecture on “the history of feminsm,” bro.

        I’m pretty confident the vast majority of MRAs have yet to read one of these books. Cherry-picking quotes that are, for the most part, taken out of context, is more their style.

        And no, Rumspringa. It doesn’t mean a lick that you personally are “anti-religion,” mostly because, well, lots of people in the world aren’t anti-religion and, indeed, use religion to perpetuate the notion that women are inferior to men.

    • thehermit says:

      NOW is a radical group now? Haha, it’s priceless. It is one of the biggest- if not the biggest- feminist organisations, with trillions of dollars and yes, taxpeyers money as well.

      But if it’s so radical, why don’t you protest against speaking in your name?

    • Is there a difference between an author and an authoress?

  33. The entire last section of this article is missing Henry….is that on purpose?

    • Are you saying that your work has been censored Dan?

      • Oh it’s been quite extensively edited (entire paragraphs are now gone – but that was part of the editing process, and I accept the changing of the meanings as a consequence.), but what I was getting at is there may be a glitch somewhere.

        I can always publish the whole thing on a MRM site, but I thought you feminist types wanted to know a thing or two about us, and our motivations…

  34. The complete and utter delusion and heads-buried-in-the-sand-ness that one would require to buy any of your allegations about feminism are staggering.

    Men have been in a consistently stronger position than women (in Western societies and their precursors) since the advent of agriculture. Gains made by feminism do not negatively effect men’s status they just even out the playing field.

    Proponents of free speech always point out that its best to allow those you disagree with a platform because they will take the metaphorical rope and hang themselves with it, well I think the MRM activists posting here over the last couple of days have done a great job at that. From what I can tell the movement is largely built about imagined victimization, denial on top of denial on top of denial, and misogynistic woman hating.

    • I presume your “lifestyle choices” comment points toward the fallacy I’ve seen spouted by several MRM followers that wage disparity is to do with ‘choice’ rather than sexism, but fine, to engage with your point:

      Even if we were to accept that feminist gains went to far and now women are in a disparately strong position compared to men (which I personally find absurd, but for the sake of argument) do you accept that women were, historically in a weaker position – wage wise, political power, reproductive rights, marriage rights – than men, even if, as I presume you argue, the needle has swung too far in the other direction?

      • “I presume your “lifestyle choices” comment points toward the fallacy I’ve seen spouted by several MRM followers that wage disparity is to do with ‘choice’ rather than sexism, but fine, to engage with your point:”

        Perfect example of a typical feminst lie.

        In 2009 Consad Research Corp released a report (one that was prepared for the DEPT OF LABOR) debunking the “wage gap” and even goes on to criticize certain groups (feminists) for intentionally misinforming the public about the real reason behind the gap. Kind of like what you are doing now.

        Read if for yourself and start complaining about real issues instead of made up ones.

        http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

        • Randomizer says:

          If you are really interested in empirical and theoretical underpinnings of the claims that there is a gender gap attributable to gender discrimination in the workforce Echidne has laid it out in detail here

          In short, I don’t believe that the empirical evidence shows what you claim it does. There is ample evidence that, even the best studies cannot account for all of gap without allowing for discrimination.

          R.

    • Which laughable lies, April? Which of the following have not “negatively affected” men’s lives, James?

      1. That the child support tables were fraudulently developed as documented above?

      2. That the family court system continues to act like it is 1952 and women should nearly always receive physical custody of the kids, while dad is supposed to work overtime and as such is relegated to 2 weekends a month and 2 weeks in the summer (less than 21% of the 3824 waking, non-working hours in the year ((48*12) + (16*14)) / ((40+16 + 16)*50) + (16*14) = 800 / 3824 = 20.92% ? When the large majority of the psychological studies out there demonstrate irreparable harm to the parent-child bond when contact falls below 35%.

      3. That the NOW website mocks non-custodial men who want, absent proof of abuse by them, to have the ability to be with their kids 50% of the non-working waking time as “so-called father’s rights activists”?

      4. That the NOW website says that “most” men who seeks greater than minimal physical access to his children after his wife divorces him are abusers? So, if you dare to ask for more time with your kids, your ex-wife and her lawyer can tell you that is almost certainly evidence that you are a latent abuser?

      5. That the family court system continues to act like it is 1952 and men can just go get another job on the assembly line when they are unemployed, rather than the commonplace experience of multi-year unemployment or limited, serial employment at minimum wage in the new long0-term world of 17% effective unemployment? (It is very, very difficult to get the court system to modify child support payments. And fathers are routinely sent to jail for inability to get a job when their job was sent to China by the tiny minority of men and women who run this system and give all the political donations and have all the access to the mainstream media.)

      6. That the child support tables take most of whatever unemployment benefit is given, helping to cause 4 out of 5 homeless to be men, and making sure that dad’s fomrer 21% time with his son or daughter is reduced to zero because any dad in a homeless shelter is an unfit dad?

      7. That in lieu of prison time for being unemployed men are offered the opportunity attend “fathering” classes where, as Hanna Rosin documented, the instructors focus on shaming men by pointing out that their ex wives on averge earn $85,000, while their economic worth is, at best, $12,000, even though the child support tables want all of that and more? That is helping to learning how to “father”?

      8. That 14 year old boys who are drugged and so father children against their will by 30-something cougars are ordered to pay child support to their rapists? (Thank you Kansas Supreme Court.)

      9. That a University-controlled study in British Columbia, reported in the Vancouver Sun, found that 75% of male teenage street kids were being “rented” by adult women?

      10. That mothers are twice as likely to abuse their children than fathers according to 2006 HHS data?

      11. That worldwide, according to UN data, most infant murder is at the hands of mothers?

      12. That when mothers in the US kill or seriously physically abuse their children feminist advocates routinely come to their rescue, and get off with reduced sentences?

      13. That physical and sexual abuse of boys up to the age of 12 by female perpetrators is both common and not watched for by the helping professions, as reported in studies cited by ABC News?

      14. That until the 2006 re-authorization, VAWA prohibited the expenditure of funds for the study of female abusers of boys and men? And that feminist organizations actively lobbied to maintain such prohibition?

      15. That demonstrably boys are routinely forced to be drugged into stupors by the women who run the elementary and secondary school systems in the US and Canada? That boys are expected to act as if they were girls in school or are treated as seriously non-normative? (And then we get to be treated to Hanna Rosin and her daughter on the Atlantic website and on TED mocking boys for this blatant discrimination by the femnized educational system!)

      16. That middle class and working class boys (not to mention the poor) are being discouraged from attending higher education because no “quota” exists for them?

      17. That radical feminist chat sites now routinely encourage the mass-castration of men and boys, citing the American experience with routine infant circumcision of how society can be brought to expect and then legislate this outcome?

      This is the time for true feminists to put up or shut up. Either true feminists are going to join as allies with decent men to use massive civil disbedience, to demand, once and for all, across the entire Political West, that men and women be given true, full, legal equality, and the above, real issues and problems be corrected, and not equality with half a dozen asterisks for men, or feminism will be exposed as a lie that merely seeks for women to be “more equal” than men.

      • (GAH, the fucking page refreshed after I spent ten minutes typing a reply, why does this feature/bug even exist?!)

        8. What? Citation please.

        9. As a supporter of prostitution, I’m tempted to say this isn’t an issue where there isn’t evidence of trafficking/coercion (I would say the same if the genders were reversed).

        10. And so women should lose their rights? I don’t understand how this bears on the argument.

        11. Again, relevancy? Unless the point of MRM is because women are inherently evil?

        12. What? Please provide citations when making extravagant sounding claims.

        13. Feminism condemns and seeks to prevent child abuse.

        14. Which feminist organizations lobbied to prevent studies of child abuse?

        15. “That boys are expected to act as if they were girls in school”, what does this even mean? Personally I am against the desire to medicate children to control behaviour, of either gender.

        16. This is an affirmative action argument. White men have and still have an advantage over minorities, who are therefore provided assistance to even the playing field.

        17. This is insane. I’m sorry, I want to engage with this point, but seriously, there is no way that anyone remotely sane is lobbying for the castration of anyone. Also: radical feminism doesn’t equal feminism.

        • MRM is a hate group. Don’t bother trying to understand them James.

          • The denial of the thousands upon thousands of cases of profound discrimination against men and boys by the feminist movement amounts to the feminist equivalent of Holocaust denial. You have to look no further than the shocking suicide statistics, if you didn’t care for any of the 17 points I made above (though I note you didn’t object before #8, James, so perhaps you are not reflexively loathing of fathers). Your own gender is being methodically soul-murdered, Gary and James, and the full power of the State has been put into the effort. Wake up before they come for you.

            Note, folks, that no feminist responded to my concluding paragraph. Apparently feminists are not really all that interested in fighting for gender justice and gender equality.

            • “Note, folks, that no feminist responded to my concluding paragraph. Apparently feminists are not really all that interested in fighting for gender justice and gender equality”

              Lulz. Look at that logic! No feminist responded to his concluding paragraph in this little nook of the internet, therefore no feminist in the whole entire world is “all that interested” in fighting for gender justice and equality.

              Frank, I’m just not convinced there is a serious, credible, large movement to castrate boys that is gaining traction in the US.

          • Gary wrote: MRM is a hate group. Don’t bother trying to understand them James.

            Sure. We hate the bias and discrimination that is directed against boys and men. We hate the anti-male laws that are stacked against males in the family and criminal courts. We have some other hates too.

        • James, get ready for a teachable moment. It may come in handy when you find yourself in family court someday.

          I do not have to prove anything I said. It is sufficient that I make a claim or an accusation. Just like in family court. It is your responsibility as a privileged, white man to disprove everything I say. So, get cracking, get your evidence together, you have 12 hours, failing which you will be removed from your home, your bank account will be indefinitely frozen, if you drive through your neighborhood or attempt to post (i.e. contact) anyone here you will be arrested and face criminal charges, and you will be required to pay a third party provider to see your children for a couple of hours a week.

          Do not bore with your whiney complaints that you cannot prove a negative or other such logical foolishness. You approve of this system. Deal with it.

          • I don’t disagree with you that there are deep flaws in the family court system, where I’m completely confused is that you attribute these flaws (1) to feminism and; (2) even more amazingly, to a DELIBERATE attack on men by women.

            A preference for giving mothers custody over children in divorce cases (all other factors being equal) smacks to me of patriarchal sexism misfiring – “traditional” concepts of masculinity and femininity don’t function in modern society and we end up with women automatically gaining custody of the children by dint of being women (as they are “biologically” the better parent). This has never been a feminist argument and to echo a previous article – more feminism would fix this problem and create equality between the parents.

            • You’re half right, except that “patriarchal” is a loaded term with imprecise definition, often implying that all men have societal advantages that women don’t, simply because their men.

              Feminist groups have been very active in opposing any changes to the family law system in preference for the status quo.

              Traditionally chivalrious alpha males (a minority of men in power) put women on a pedestal with privilege over men. Is that the same as patriarchy that feminists hate?

              • Chivalry is ironically a feminist ideal, look up Elanor of equtaine I think. The chilvirous behavior actually refers to courtly love, which were the rules between knights and women. Chivalry was more about general conduct and loyalty to your leader.

            • “where I’m completely confused is that you attribute these flaws (1) to feminism and; (2) even more amazingly, to a DELIBERATE attack on men by women”

              James, I am relieved that you and I are finally engaging in discussion. I thank you for your last, calm response to my posting. I will try to respond in kind.

              The disproportionate and systematic inequities against men who wish to have a relationship with their children and wish to provide for their care and support according to their means as it changes from time to time result from the very significant changes in family law over the last 40 years which were strongly supported by the feminist movement of the time. Attempts to revisit those rules and their negative impacts have been systematically opposed by the largest and most powerful feminist lobbying organizations, e.g. NOW and AAUW. You have only to go to the NOW websites (national and state) to see with your own eyes the denigration of any effort to establish and the active lobbying to oppose any baseline rules that would allow men, absent real evidence of abuse, to have more equal time with their kids following divorce. The basic argument used is that men should have to negotiate for equal time, but the woman should negotiate from a position of overwhelming strength. It amounts to an argument that all men should be presumed to be abusive, and all women should be presumed to be negotiating with their exes in good faith. I know others here have posed that NOW is not a feminist organization. They say they are, they have the brand, and I take them at their word. As I said in my first post, I welcome any and all people of good will to bring about a more just and loving world, and if that includes feminists lobbying against NOW on this score, welcome.

              This brings me to a more fundamental point — that the culture of English-speaking North America has, in my opinion, become profoundly distrustful, disrespectful and at times actively hateful toward men over the course of the last 40 years. There is a tendency in North American culture to go overboard and engage in the demonization of entire groups of people. The Salem witch trials are a classic example. The white backlash movement in the US from the end of Reconstruction (to…?) is another. In Canada, the mass kidnapping and de-culturing of First Nations children from the late 19th century through mid 20th century is another. So, too, in the course of my conscious lifetime we have gone from a culture where women were absolutely the second sex to a culture where men are the second sex. And the tendency with these cultural trends in North America, sad to say, is the less the original problem exists, the more it is important to hype the original problem and find it to be hiding in new places.

              Except for a very small handful of wealthy and powerful men in the top 5-10% of society, to which I suspect you belong and I will confess I belong, the rest of the male population is utterly disposable. God help you if you are born white, male and not-rich in North America at this point. You will be legally presumed to have all the benefits of the top 10% of males but you will in fact be subjected to legal disabilities (previously detailed) and routine scorn. You are told you are stupid in school. You are denied the ability to move around. When you fidget you are kept in from what little recess is given. (Seriously, watch the video of Hanna Rosin with her proud daughter basically gloating that the boys in her class are punished because they do not act the same as the girls.) You are required to attend lectures in school that tell you you are a rapist, when you can’t even get a girl to look at you. The traditional male jobs have disappeared and as a culture we don’t trust men to do more traditionally female jobs. Then NOW says on its websites that there is no boy crisis, despite the overwhelming evidence. Is it any wonder that the suicide rates for teenage males and 20-something males have skyrocketed in recent decades?

              Worse, women systemtatically encourage each other to be afraid and to distrust men, which actually promotes the downward spiral. “All men are rapists” tends to be taken literally. It isn’t men who are doing this. It comes from people whose government-funded careers require a falsehood to be true. Repeat a lie often enough and everybody assumes it to be true. Look at the recent case of Lt. Gov. Tim Murray of Masschusetts, who was very nearly assaulted by a grandmother for pulling her grandkids from a burning minivan, because she presumed him to be a child abductor or molestor. And the upshot is that men are not being hired for and will not be hired for nurturing positions. Because, as a sex, they are presumptively feared.

              Men are presumed not to have any emotional life (well, other than anger — see supra re why men should be feared). By women. And by feminists. And when men say their feelings are hurt, and want to talk about their need for love and the way men experience and give love, or talk about beauty, feminists routinely respond with the phrase “man up” or “stop being whiny” or “grow a pair.” It is a double bind of the worst kind. And I think many women know it and enjoy it as a power play. I concede the ways in which men experience emotion isn’t always obvious to women. I will bet you $20 that if you ask any 10 random adult women whether their husbands or boyfiends think of sex as “getting off” or “being loved and giving love” they will choose the former. And you and I both know the real answer in a man’s heart in an even semi-commited relationship is the latter. But again, a man takes a big emotional risk with a modern, empowered North American woman being anything other than the Marlboro Man. Maybe it is time for the counterpart to Keith Edward’s “She Fears You” shaming-college-men trip: a just for college women, mandatory workshop entitled “He Doesn’t Trust You Not to Hurt Him.”

              Remember that I am getting along in years. As the saying goes, “The past is another country, they do things differently there.” So I have the basis for some comparison.

              But you don’t have to take my word for it. Educated immigrants to Canada routinely comment, in writing and in person, that they are shocked at the denigration of adult men and senior men in Canadian life. Our family has been involved with cultural exchanges, both students and teachers, with Central Asia (ex-Soviet republics) for several years. The adults (college-educated women as well as men) who come and spend time in the US are flabergasted at the way US women treat US men — by which I don’t mean equality, but rather mean the extent to which women order men about here, physically smack and denigrate men in public and private (and that men do not respond), lord it over men in TV commercials, and generally have a sense of exalted superiority and entitlement vis-à-vis men. We pay attention in History and PoliSci departments to DeTocqueville’s essays because they give us an insight through the eyes of the outsider. Perhaps the outsider sees something we do not?

              There is another impact of the men-bashing that takes up a meaningful percentage (by which I mean low single digit percents) of the relationship communications I witness between women and hear about from women. It causes women to effectively goad one another into “showing him who’s boss” or outdoing each other in which one has the worst lout in her life. Continued over sufficient time it frequently leads to a breakdown in marital communications, a worsening marital relationship, and the decision by a woman that it is time for her to join her girlfriends in getting rid of that jerk who doesn’t appreciate her. Thus the 75%+ of divorces initiated by women. Take a look at http://www.divorcebusting.com if you want to see examples of the dynamic. It takes two to communicate, and when one is shamed into silence and the other is upping that ante, it doesn’t help. This is pretty familiar stuff to marriage counsellors, though far from all marriage counselors think marriage is a good institution.

              And so we come full circle to the point where the family law system comes into play with the problems there we have both acknowledged. And the damage to all concerned, including women, who frequently discover that the next relationship isn’t much better than the last if you aren’t prepared to do the hard, daily, practical work of compromising and loving.

              I am sure there has to be a virtuous circle between the sexes that can replace this out of control downward spiral in North American life (and, by the by, gender relations are only the half of it; many other economic and cultural systems here are also not sustainable in my view). I am a believer, so I pray that mutual love and true equality and justice will come and I trust that, one day, Her Will will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Meanwhile, God helps those who help themselves.

            • exford legs says:

              They are not. Children raised by a male single parent are statistically less likely to commit a felony as children of female single parents.

        • Jalestra says:

          16. This is an affirmative action argument. White men have and still have an advantage over minorities, who are therefore provided assistance to even the playing field.

          Can we all get over ourselves and quit paying retribution? How about instead we look at WHY folks are falling behind. I swear no white guy ever came up to me when I was in school and discouraged me from being educated. I didn’t need a level playing field, I leveled it myself by qualifying at the same terms as anyone else should. I went through college with grants I researched myself (which means I didn’t know about many). I got an idea. How about we quit funding AA and similar groups and put all that money into bettering the public education system?

          Really, are we all so stupid (through gender or color) that in 100 years we haven’t caught up the white male yet? I mean, honestly I’m pretty certain I’m equal to any man my age since we both started with nothing except milk on the brain and I’m smarter than many older ones since I had a much better education.

  35. Both men and women need some straight realism
    – Sex is a reproductive act. Our pathetic birth control inventions can’t get past that. I got pregnant on the Nuvaring, an expensive type of hormonal birth control that I was using correctly. Maybe in the future we can have 100% effective birth control for both sexes, but it doesn’t exist now.
    – Abortion is not a simple procedure. It’s painful and invasive. Depending on your life philosophy and inner values, you might regret it. I didn’t think I would as a modern atheist, but I wish the whole thing had never happened.
    – Children do BEST in two-parent families with heavy birth-parent investments like breast feeding. People who choose to have children alone are beyond selfish.

    • Amen on all counts, Kate.

    • @Kate

      You argue for two-parent households, and against abortion. You argue that the responsibility of parents to their children trumps the desires of the parents. It appears that you know that the feminist push to transform children into commodities that exist for the benefit of the mother is morally wrong.

      Kate, you don’t sound like a feminist. I agree with some of the things that you say. Please stop. You are making me think that some feminists are not completely evil.

      • Haha, not a feminist here 🙂 The whole abortion miserable dating free love experience proved to me that feminism as an ideology is bunk. I support equal opportunities for all humans, but in conducting your life it is wise to be aware of biology. I feel very sorry for my friends who were sold a feminist agenda and waited until 40 to have kids and then couldn’t conceive. Or those that had children out of wedlock who grew up scarred and resentful from mommies selfish dating parade of men through their household.

        I only hope that all those years of hormal contraceptive and the abortion won’t impair my ability to have children.

        • I hope feminists get everything they deserve in return for the last 50 years of hateful dogma, and rampant sexism.

          Actually, I just hope to live to see it. I know it’s going to happen.

    • None of which takes one iota away from the fact that women have reproductive rights, and men do not.

      The continued attempts to justify it – everything from 1950’s “keep it in your pants” type responses to “life isn’t fair, suck it up” responses – are all transparent sexism.

      If you’re OK with women and men having unequal reproductive rights – arguably the most important and personal “right” – then you are obviously OK with women and men having unequal rights in other areas as well. As a feminist, I’m sure you’re ok with Female Supremacism…

      But I’m not.

      Frankly, this issue ALONE is enough to show Feminism is a total and utter fraud.

    • That’s what i find ironic. Abortion is something that goes against nature, and there is more and more evidence that it causes many problems, and yet feminists who are mostly atheists, and in theory should understand nature take it so lightly, and it’s like that with a lot of things too such as family and sexuality.

      I’m pro choice, but think it needs to be taken much, much more seriously than it is now and needs to be a lot harder to get and not certainly not pushed for.

      • Feminists tend to be eugenicists, if not openly naming themselves as such.

      • Based on what do you come to the conclusion that abortion is not taken seriously?

      • it really makes me ill to hear you talk about how abortion is not taken seriously. have you had an abortion, or been really close to someone who had who can talk to you honestly about what she thought about, what she went through, and how she feels? until you can say yes to that, i don’t see how you can believe that it’s not taken seriously. that sounds an awful lot like you think women aren’t capable of thinking for themselves about the serious issues that affect them. is that what you meant?

    • and when a spouse dies?

      i see, it’s selfish and stupid to have a child when you are divorced or it’s by choice. you’re a martyr if it’s involuntary and excluded from any judgmental remarks.

  36. Choice starts at the choice to not have sex with people who you don’t want to have children with.

    • LOL gender imbalance is biological reality. If you want to engineer a new reality for our species, start working in a lab to create male birth control or sexbots.

      • Patrick Grady says:

        So, I guess you support shuttering Planned Parenthood ? Choice starts with not having sex…right ?

        • Women should realize when they buy error-ridden birth control at PP (which PP doesn’t really warn you about) that there are consequences and they might need to come back for a surgical procedure.

      • Mind if we take that attitude everywhere else in society? Get rid of AA and all that? Special entitlements and laws -gone?

        Your sexism is breathtaking. And typical.

        • Mind telling me what AA is? Alcoholics anonymous? I’m afraid both sexes suffer from that.

          I’d love to see special entitlements gone. If women are so great we don’t need them. I feel they have held me back as a computer programmer they have led me employer to hire stupid and inefficient female programmers to fill gender quotas who write bad code and do stupid things that I have to fix.

          Don’t get me started on the “Women in Math and Science” pathetic program they had at my university. It’s lovely seeing upper middle class entitled women getting special treatment for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

          And the fact that all students had to pay RIDICULOUS high health fees to pay for women’s free birth control pills. I”m proud to say I was one of the few students who wrote letters of support when they cut the program during budget cuts. Sex isn’t a right, it’s a fun hobby and other male and female students shouldn’t have to subsidize it.

      • It goes beyond that. When I worked with poor women I found some of them were not only incentivized to have children because of extracting from the poor male in question, but from a more lucrative father: the government.

        I wish Republicans would realize that by subsidizing abortion we could save a lot of money, but we’d also have to make it harder to get on the dole so women don’t keep their children just to get benefits. We could solve this by making benefits gender blind, IE not requiring a child to receive them like the WIC program does.

        • Assurance that there’s no help coming, and a life of poverty awaits, would certainly do a lot to reduce the number of single parent households, wouldn’t you say?

          It would also result in reduced taxes, stronger family cohesion, and …equality between men and women in relationships….or, at least a more balanced situation.

          But nah, it makes too much sense, and it would place limits on women’s autonomy – so it’ll never fly.

          • When has a life of poverty ever dissuaded humans from having kids? In every society around the world, the poorest classes always have more kids… not less.

            You’re living in la-la land…

            Family cohesion? What family? Most are unwed teenage mothers… the teenage dad long gone from the scene.

        • You want to see what “good men” look like after they have been abused by an unjust legal system? Stop by http://www.avoiceformen.com. If you’re a good man looking for a fair deal, I’ll see you there.

          This comment pasted from WORD due to GMPM’s practice of auto refreshing to inflate the appearance of advertising impressions.

    • Tes, well for women it doesn’t end there does it? But for men it does. That’s the inequality that is being addresed her? Do you also acknowledge it?

    • J.G. te Molder says:

      And one of the reasons that the MGTOW men around, they’re indeed choosing not to bother with women. And the women and the feminists HATE it!

      • says who? if they’re anything like these haters, they wouldn’t stand a chance anyway

        • Your shaming language is one of the prime reasons that many men aren’t bothering with women. Rather than respond to the above comment with a logical response, you try to creep-shame the men, painting them as “losers” or “undesirables” because of their choice.

          But my question to you, Jo is would you say that about a man like George Clooney?

          Clooney is a confirmed bachelor and has the wealth and status to back up his attitude. He publicly made a statement proclaiming “no fat chicks,” and despite the controversy he generated with the remark, women still flock to him, hoping that they can be “the one.”

          Male shaming by females is one of the things that men are rebelling against. If you want us to do something for you, how about just asking politely, rather than trying to “shame” us into doing it. That tactic is starting to fall short of the mark, especially with many men today.

        • Neither would you Jo with most of us. Women are boring and more trouble than they were ever worth. BTW, the real haters are the feminists of men err males since they hate boys too.

      • I’m a feminist and I could honestly care less if there are men going their own way. Good for them.

        Are you mad?

    • Kate wrote: “Choice starts at the choice to not have sex with people who you don’t want to have children with.”

      That would be most women. Get real. Your feminist slogans are irrational. The intent was to have sex not a child. If women can choose abortion then men can opt-out of paying child support.

  37. Great article, feminists are absolutely opposed to men’s rights and honest discussion of the issues.

    • For someone who’s called ‘ad hominem’ several times in other threads, this a great example of it.

      • You mean his description of the reaction of feminists to mens concerns? No, I’d say it’s about as accurate as you can get…

      • Clearly you don’t understand what ad hominem argument is. Go look it up. Clue for you: it does not not personal attacks.

        • Yeah… Denis didn’t make a personal attack: “feminists are absolutely opposed to men’s rights and honest discussion of the issues” is argumentum ad hominem as it discounts anything a feminist says purely for being a feminist without having regard to the content of their statements – it attacks the speaker not the argument.

  38. Feminists have, from the outset of the Men’s Rights Movement, ridiculed, dismissed, viciously attacked, mischaracterized, and misrepresented the MRM—pretty much in that order.

    …he says, immediately after proving exactly why this is the case by spouting off laughable lie after lie after absurd accusation.

    • Just deal with the issues.

      • What issues? So many of them are complete delusions you may as well ask us to deal with the purple giraffe on your lawn.

        • Perhaps you could outline specifically which ‘lies’ you would like defended?

          • “MRAs reject the very notion that ‘men oppressed women.’ It didn’t happen. Ever.”

            That’s….quite a revision of history there.

            Just like the “Top 10” piece posted a couple of days ago, this piece would better serve the MRA cause had it included evidence in support of Really Bit propositions like this.

            • Why do we need to deal with ancient history that has no relevance to anybody alive today? It’s a pointless argument.

            • So you contend Patriarchy Theory is now “History” do you?

              Some of us outside the feminist ideology would beg to differ.

              • That’s nice. But that opinion and $3.99 will get you a crave case at White Castle.

                • We’ll see how your arrogant attitude will play out in the public.

                  But given your response, you most definitely ARE”like that”. Do you mind if I use you as an example of feminist “willingness” to help men?

            • fannie

              I’m an MRA and like most I would never say women were never oppressed in the past in all contexts. Men were also oppressed by society in the past as they are today. It all needs to be put into the proper context and not a feminist propaganda slogan.

    • Not a feminist. Anymore at least.

    • In fact, I highly resent feminists for selling a false gender-neutral free love no-reproductive consequences no-morals fantasy land. I’m just glad I got out early. So many of my friends are 40 and single or 40 and trying to have a child for the first time which is pretty hard.

      My husband is the head of our household and I am glad of that. I support his leadership and do not use sex as a weapon. We have sex almost every day. We both earn decent incomes and had a prenup.

      • Poor Kate, mistaking the sexual revolution for a feminist one.

        • Find me a feminist that’s disapproves of the sexual revolution please.

          • The sexual revolution is probably the only thing that has benefited men. At least feminists are good for something.

          • Andrea Dworkin had a lot of criticism of the sexual revolution. Given how much MRAs love to cite her, I thought this would be something ya’ll would know.

            Oh, right. Most MRAs haven’t actually read any of her books.

            • Oh yes, someone who was a lesbian who viewed all heterosexual sex as inherently degrading was a major voice for modern women to have reasonable rational sex lives.

              Feminists are a bunch of wingnuts who have caused American women to have dysfunctional sex lives whether they are getting knocked up by men who don’t want children or just simple bashing men and avoiding having sex with them at all.

  39. What feminists and MRA have in common: dislike for biology. Well, besides, the “just so” evolutionary psych and anecdotal stuff favored by the pick up community. Either way, each group lives in essential denial of sex as a reproductive act with differing consequences on humans of different gender (ugh, how inconvenient, consequences! Guess what, birth control doesn’t always work and many humans are too dumb to even use it properly in the first place).

    • Women have choices, men have responsibilities.

      • Denis says: “Women have choices, men have responsibilities.”

        Yes and it is men’s responsibilities that enable female choices but not for long….not when men begin to implement the other half of the feminist paradigm of Independence, Liberation and Equality.

        Men don’t “get women pregnant” It is a mutual act requiring mutual responsibility and thus (since abortion is legal) under Constitutional mandate (along with the equal protection and rights under law that it affords) the equal right of each party is afforded to absolve themselves of such responsibility.

        If abortion is against a woman’s values who cares. Cut it’s head off latter or something. Nothing is stopping a woman from getting an abortion:

        http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/03/10/young-woman-gives-birth-to-baby-boy-decapitates-him/

        No one cares if it is against men’s values. No one cares about men’s “choices”. Men have the right to walk away. Men can abort responsibility. Her body, her choice, her baby, 100% her property, her problem.

        Men don’t necessarily have anything to do with conception. Conception of life by law is something only women do and women choose, even to the point of not requiring a man to conceive life all together. Men are no longer a part of nor necessary for conception and this is the sole choice of women…for now. What men need to realize now is that we also have the power to take our exclusion into our own hands and make it our own choice, we have the right to exclude ourselves from having any part of it. By law we are already excluded. Male genes are sold over the internet by what Hollywood celebrity the male specimine looks like:

        http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com/2009/07/sperm-banks-men-for-sale.html

        There are no laws against paternity fraud and cuckolding committed by women when it is discovered. Men don’t necessarily have anything to do with conception now a days. Women and THEIR children are THEIR problem and THEIR responsibility. Conception is something they do..it is THEIR choice not ours. Men don’t have paternal rights to children anyway. Fatherhood is not a right but arevocable privilege.

        It is said that women have choices, a choice to work or stay home, a choice to conceive or not conceive, a choice about her gender role, a choice not to serve her country by military draft, a choice to pay on a date or not pay, a choice to divorce with no liabilities, obligations or responsibilities AND at no-fault….Even then a man’s responsibility to women and THEIR children remains.

        Yes it is said that women have choices……men, responsibilities. Not anymore…..

        Equality by the way women have implemented it in practice means Independence and Liberation which equates to dis-need, and choices. As such Independence, Liberation and Equality for men means the same…choices and the right not just for women to practice dis-need but the right of both sexes to practice mutual dis-need of the other and mutual choices to absolve ourselves of responsibility and the role we play to the other.

        Men are beginning to understand that we have choices in ALL realms that women do…..it is only fair. This is the other half of Feminist ideology that men must complete for ourselves. Right now the whole house of cards of women’s “Independence” and “Liberation” is held up by men’s half of the bargain and thus lack of equal ability and choice to absolve ourselves from it. Men currently are made to be responsible and accountable to women while women are not made to be the same…they are not accountable toward and for men or even service to country…. This is changing….men are waking up to exactly what feminism really means, men just have not completed the picture yet…It is Independence, Liberation and Equality.

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