Marrie Lobel with a personal rant on “white privilege” inspired by our series On Race.
In the mind of some, the mere fact that I am white means it is audacious of me to comment on racism. My “privileged” birth in a conceptual cast system has made my personal experiences with racism not worth mentioning. But the conversations and emotions spurred by recent articles posted on The Good Men Project were too important to ignore, even though most of my writings concentrate on relationships and sex.
Having been fortunate enough to be raised in an extremely diverse community, I have understood that peaceful cohabitation across races does not come from “color blindness” but from “color consciousness.” It is not shameful to be aware of and acknowledge differences; it is shameful and harmful to ignore its existence. Just as it would be irresponsible to ignore this countries ugly legacy of slavery, government sanctioned brutality, and legislated segregation (i.e. Native Americans, African Americans, Japanese Americans, Afghani’s, Iraqi’s) all in the name of economic prosperity and domestic security.
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I have understood that peaceful cohabitation across races does not come from “color blindness” but from “color consciousness.”…It would also be naïve of me to dismiss the claim that my whiteness affords me certain rights and privileges in American society.
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It would also be naïve of me to dismiss the claim that my whiteness affords me certain rights and privileges in American society. I can relocate most anywhere in the U.S., find a job, and assimilate into that community’s masses without fear of retribution and/or rejection (provided certain community’s don’t discover that I’m Jewish). I feel my allegiance to American society and the individuals that compose it are best honored by remembering history and refusing to participate in repeating its wretched transgressions, not by personally apologizing for transgressions that neither I nor any member of my family has participated in. My Grandparents came to this country on a boat, escaping horrifying persecution in the early 1900’s, no one in my family ever owned slaves, condoned slavery, nor participated in racial persecution. My Grandparents moved into a very diverse community in Pittsburgh and later participated in the civil rights movement. My family were victim in a different land of the same persecution and injustice as many minorities experienced in this land.
According to an article posted on GMP, It may appear that I’m attempting to participate in the “more oppressed than thou” game , which is not the case. I believe that discussing your personal experience explains your perspective and enables others to appreciate that your words have value and meaning. I do not claim that I am oppressed. I just assert that I do not feel the need to apologize for being white or feel the need to “address the privilege of being white in a meaningful way.” I do feel the need to give back, contribute, and be thankful but not because I am white, but because I have the privilege of being an American, an American who has food on the table, a roof over my children’s head, and clothes on their backs. For me, apologizing would be to acknowledge that I have somehow participated in the circumstances that demanded the apology; however, my only offense is the color of my skin.
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The recent resentment over the successful movie and novel, “The Help” by Kathryn Stockett, encapsulates my point. The contention, that a white woman could write about the black experience and articulate it accurately. Well, if I’m not mistaken this was a story that was waiting to be told and was told by others, only Kathryn Stockett ‘s novel was a commercial success. Does she now need to apologize because the story she told was a commercial success or because she, a white woman, wrote it? If the novel had disappeared into obscurity or a clearance bin, would she still need to apologize? Either way the story was still authored by a white woman.
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I believe that discussing your personal experience explains your perspective and enables others to appreciate that your words have value and meaning. I do not claim that I am oppressed. I just assert that I do not feel the need to apologize for being white or feel the need to “address the privilege of being white in a meaningful way.”
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My white “privilege” has not exempted me from racism; it came crashing through my car window during the L.A. riots, carried on a brick to the tune of, “white fucking bitch”. My white “privilege” has not made me complacent to the catastrophic consequences of racial injustice. My white “privilege” is not a gift that I had asked for nor is it one that I feel the need to apologize for. Being white is one element of many that helped to form my character and I do not see it as a flaw that needs to be excused, prize that needs to be exalted, or a privilege to be responsible for. White privilege is a regional advantage that fades or disappears into a liability depending upon where in the world you are, based upon the filters that that communities residents share. I am aware how ideological this sounds, but race privilege is an illusion that is perpetuated by the filters that were formed by a community’s experience.
Just as I do not think it is equitable to ask men to apologize for their economic/social advantage or my Germans friends to apologize for the holocaust. I look forward to the day when I no longer have to apologize for being white.
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Read our entire series about race and racism here:
On Race
A virtual discussion by Tom Matlack, Steve Locke and Lisa Hickey started by this post and its comments:
On Intellectual Laziness, Collective Truths, and Storytelling
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Photos: “Apologize” by Dollen / Flickr, “Toast” by BaileyRaeWeaver / Flickr
About Marrie Lobel
My “privileged” birth in a conceptual cast system has made my personal experiences with racism not worth mentioning.
You’re free to think as you wish about your experience but I really hope you don’t think that being white means your experiences don’t matter. The only way we’re going to make things better is to include everyone. If we start leaving people out because they are ______ then the cycle will continue.
My white “privilege” has not exempted me from racism; it came crashing through my car window during the L.A. riots, carried on a brick to the tune of, “white fucking bitch”. My white “privilege” has not made me complacent to the catastrophic consequences of racial injustice.
Exactly. I often say the same thing when it comes to gender. My being male doesn’t magically mean that sexism never happens to me. I don’t know how sexism harms women but I do know how it harms men. (And yes its -ism, not reverse -ism, and none of that trying to use institutional power as a way to say that “there is no such thing as -ism against ______” either. That’s a weak sauce cop out.)
White privilege is a regional advantage that fades or disappears into a liability depending upon where in the world you are, based upon the filters that that communities residents share. I am aware how ideological this sounds, but race privilege is an illusion that is perpetuated by the filters that were formed by a community’s experience.
True except I wouldn’t say its an illusion. Its real but it is perpetuated by the filters you speak of. Because let’s face it if you were kidnapped and sold into a sexual slavery ring that “likes white women” it would be silly to try to act like the only reason you were targeted was because of your gender.
Just as I do not think it is equitable to ask men to apologize for their economic/social advantage or my Germans friends to apologize for the holocaust. I look forward to the day when I no longer have to apologize for being white.
I can dig it. Not only should we stop demanding broad apologies from each other but I’d like to get to the point where people stop instantly writing off a person and what they say by pointing out one of their characteristics. You being white doesn’t mean you can’t talk about race and it also doesn’t mean that when talking about race you are limited to going on about your white privilege. I talk about gender all the time at my blog and I sure as hell don’t spend all my time talking about all the male privilege that ( supposedly) have.
Well said in all points, Marrie. Thank you especially for mentioning German friends and the holocaust. As an American who was raised in Germany, I always feel puzzled and hurt when fellow Americans imply or insist that today’s Germans should apologize for what their forebears did. My heart feels just as heavy over any insistence that I should apologize for the color of my skin.
Do I enjoy certain privileges because of it? Sure. I also enjoy certain advantages because I’m female, bi-cultural, tri-lingual, born in 1977, world-traveled, strong-boned, and medium-heighted. None of those characteristics came about because of my design or choice. I feel no need and see no logical reason to apologize to anyone for any of those things. And I refuse to accept limitations that anyone would place on me because of them.
And that attitude is most definitely by my design and choice. ; )
Ah, how my intelligent friends can state things better than I:
“This author is making one of the telltale mistakes of discussing privilege. She is personalizing it. For her, the concept of privilege is about her life, feelings and experiences, not the greater meaning of race and experiences of oppression experienced by generations. In fact, practically all calls for accountability and privilege start by stating self guilt and apology do nothing. And yes, there is something very wrong with a white woman stating she can tell the stories of black women only to perpetuate mamie stereotypes and the notion of a great white savior.”
and
“I feel like if you think recognizing privilege demands apologies rather than re-examining the way you understand and interact with the world, you’ve failed to understand privilege.”
Thank you for supplying this comment, said it better than I could.
Who’s asking you to apologize for your whiteness? Is anyone asking for an apology? Or are they asking for action?
The key to equality is taking the privilege you were born with and using it to stand in solidarity with the oppressed, to be the extra set of hands or an additional voice. Men assist the feminist movement by taking part in a traditionally female work load at home or by hiring more women into positions of power and rewriting gender roles. Heterosexuals join LGBTQ movement to increase the volume of the voice calling for equal access to marriage and socio-economic benefits.
I dont think white people are being asked to feel guilty for being white. They’re being asked to take action. Persons of privilege should feel guilty for doing nothing to change the hardships faced by others.
I always thought of race as a kind of art style. That way when I hear people arguing about race, it sounds as goofy as two turtle-neck-waring bob-cut frappucino-sipping art freaks discussing the finer points of why the other style sucks.
I am proud to be a tall hairy Nord. But a brown is fine too. Especially that dark, smooth olive/mahogany shimmering style, heehee.
If you can’t see what’s wrong with this statement, you are part of the problem
YES to THIS. Thank you.
Ok, then by this logic, by being born priviledged, you owe something to everyone who wasn’t. You are required by circumstances upon which you had no input to take a hit in your life for all those bonuses you got. Does this also require children of say… successful black(or any other minority) athletes, businessmen, etc to take the same hit? Or is it only the white people?
good piece. Seeing as though we are born in some sense of privilege i.e. being male, being white, being American, being heterosexual etc. it would be silly to have folks be ashamed over “arbitrary” symbols of identity. I think awareness is the key and as long as one is doing good work in the world that prevents the perpetuation of unfair advantages bestowed on people due to characteristics outside of their control than one need not apologize.
One radical solution is to stop identifying as white. That’s what I do. I checked all the race boxes on the U.S. Census and told them I was homo sapien.
Drop all the racial categories that people throw around. If anyone points a finger at you and says “white privilege,” you can ignore it, because they’re not talking about you, they’re talking about “white” people. If anyone calls you white, correct them and say you’re not white. When and if they ask what you are if you’re not white, tell them you don’t have a race. They won’t believe you, but that’s their problem, not yours. There’s no reason to apologize for being something when you are not actually part of that group. Apologizing or feeling guilt is just reinforcing a system that needs to be dismantled anyway.
Some will say that pretending to be non-racial is part of white privilege. I say the individual has the power to self-identify. If you trace your family tree back far enough, you will find plenty of people not currently placed in the “white” category – pick and choose which ones you identify with, or all of them, or none of them. If someone has a problem with your racial identity, that’s not your problem.
As part of my job, I’ve attended several consciousness-raising seminars about racism, white privilege, racialized hierarchies, etc. I paid close attention. I took notes and asked sensitive questions. The seminars were very enlightening. In the end, though, I think the seminars backfired in my case. By the end, I couldn’t help but feel overwhelming relief, not guilt or concern or newfound compassion.
By the end I kept thinking, “man, I’m so glad I’m white. Being black or Hispanic or Native American really, really sucks. It sucks in unbelievable ways that I had no idea about. Whew! Dodged a bullet there!” I felt very fortunate that by the luck of the draw I was born into whitehood. If anyone had a choice I couldn’t imagine he would choose to be anything but white in America, since it is SO much better than being anything else. I suddenly relished being able to drive around without getting pulled over, walking through a store without being tailed, hailing a taxi to stop for me, all the stuff I get to enjoy that others don’t so much. It was like a newfound lease on life, like coming to grips with your own mortality and living life to the fullest in the meantime, like enjoying your youth while you’re still young.
Who knows, if there’s reincarnation I may not come back as one of the privileged, so I better enjoy it now.
I find it interesting that you feel the need to point out that you are Jewish, your ancestors came to the U.S. in the 1900′s and didn’t own slaves, so you are separate from those “other” white people who did all the bad stuff like slavery and killing Native Americans.
I’m one of those “other” white people — most of my ancestors came to America in the 17th and 18th centuries, they lived in places like Virginia and Appalachia, and although many were dirt poor, some owned slaves. So does that make me worse than you? Should I apologize for my ancestors while you don’t have to? Am I responsible for things that my great-great-great-great-great grandparents did?
I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t think white privilege has anything to do with where your family came from, or some expectation that you personally are supposed to apologize for the bad acts committed by people you are related to, who lived and died before you were born. No race, culture or creed is immune from bad behavior. If the situations had been reversed, I’m sure Africans were perfectly capable of enslaving Europeans, and Native Americans would have gladly taken over Europe. But that’s not what happened. In a way, it’s just a historical accident. So, I think what I as a thinking white person should do is acknowledge that history has given me certain advantages in society that others don’t have.
Africans did enslave Europeans. Barbary pirates.
“I’m thinking” I can’t speak for Marrie but I have made similar comments (my ancestors were from Ireland and Italy, some came to the U.S. in the 1900s, the rest in the late 1800s). My point in making such comments, and I’m pretty sure Marrie’s is the same, is not to blame you for what your fore bearers did, but to show how ridiculous the idea of collective guilt is. You and I get how ridiculous it is to blame people for the actions of long-dead relatives, but even someone who might not see the obviousness of that at first would have to admit the absurdity of blaming people for acts of people who only vaguely looked like their ancestors. Well, at least someone who was not so steeped in identity-politics propaganda that they couldn’t conceive of thoughts outside of that framework.
This is a sidebar. I just visited “Bob’s” site concerning comment ratings. The usual excuse offered up here for downvoting is “abusive” behavior. (Bob, who is avatared by a smug fat face, seems to offer no justification for his obnoxious product.) People here who are downvoted are downvoted due to lack of popularity (or very marginal lack of popularity. The comment above has just three downvotes and is not abusive.)
I suggest you get rid of this feature. It produces a mob mentality, and hurts the intellectual integrity of the site. In no way is it “moderation,” as Bob suggests.
I hate the fact that down voted comments are faded out. Too many people use the down vote feature only to express disagreement with the comment. if people only used it to filter out really inane comments or trolls, then that would be great, but often articulately stated, reasonable opinions get down voted simply because they are not popular opinions. On the other hand, it’s interesting to see which comments generate the most negative response.
I want to suggest that the concept of privilege is based on moral entrepreneurs taking advantage of white masochism. Few working class or rural whites are likely to go for this, and I think that they’re right. There”s just too much variation in privilege to fix in this way. Differences in talent will ultimately take of the problem (e.g. General Powell.) Many of the consultants who make money off of it do profit. Many of these are white and laugh all the way to the bank.
[I'm just gonna respond to a bunch of your comments at once to save time. Sorry this got really long.]
In one of your earlier comments (/comment-page-1/#comment-45656), you said: “I’m for fighting racism. Privilege, though, is complicated.” Are you trying to say they’re different things, that they’re not totally connected? Would there even BE white privilege without systems of white racism?
“Can or should anyone do anything about differences in privilege? Probably not. It’s likely that any attempts to do so would be grotesque and produce unintended consequences.” And in your follow-up comment: “I actually do think “color-blindness” is a good idea. The reason is that there’s no other possible way to legally and ethically deal with “privilege.”” I’d like to know how you decided that any of this is true. Also, as an aside, I’m not a fan of the term “color-blindness” in regards to race. It takes the name of a disability and [every time I've noticed it used] also relates it with privilege-denying.
“I know of one academic department that has screwed itself by attempting to do too much in this regard.” Even if this is true (your description is really vague), it’s still only one department. Here, it seems like you’re trying to make fighting white privilege seem like a big, impossible snarl.
“[...] who’s more privileged: a wealthy African-American or a working class white?” This is that “more oppressed than thou” game Lai was talking about (http://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/whiteness-is-not-the-absence-of-racial-identity/). I really don’t think it’s the best thing to compare oppressions like this. It pits oppressed groups against each other, and is just a diversion. It also usually aims to make privilege seem a lot more simple than it really is (did you change tactics here?).
“So, I think that this tack just represents moral entrepreneurism by advocates, many of whom are white by the way. Privilege buffs like Jensen or Wise do well for themselves by pushing this.” And in the comment I’m replying to now: “Many of the consultants who make money off of it do profit. Many of these are white and laugh all the way to the bank.” Ok, about the white self-appointed “racism experts” who profit from this, I kind of agree… kind of. I do think they’re [mostly, if not all] in it for themselves, to make money and maybe get famous. And probably also to make themselves seem progressive. And even if any of them do have good intentions, I still think it’s a disturbing trend. BUT, to act like these types represent *everyone* who disagrees with you about white privilege? That’s silly and dishonest. There are a LOT of opinions about white privilege. These white so-called “racism experts” do NOT represent some hive-mind among all people who disagree with you.
And one of the nastiest things: you seem to be saying that fighting white privilege is about making whites feel bad. And you seem to be saying this is *mainly* pushed by other whites. So you’re saying the fight against white privilege and racism is… all about the white people? Sure, sure, [/sarcasm].
Numoi, I see racism as active oppression. That can and should be stopped. The privilege paradigm sets up a series of impossibilities in terms of policies. As a white male who worked his way through college, grad school, and so forth,I received little help, I have never said that the privilege idea made me feel bad. It doesn’t.
Many African American scholars say that black prople (as a an example) have now divided into two groups. One group in the inner city; one middle class. In my mind, this implies that we might be able to use econonic policies to help inner city prople and other poor, too.
But the privilege idea simply lays responsibility at every white’s door, without making a class analysis on any sort. Most whites will repudiate this position, even when they might agree with it on the surface. Do you see anyone giving up privlege?; I don’t.
The other part of this is that people who talk about privlege never seem to have any policy suggestions of any sort whatsoever. So maybe this is just to create a classless sense of white guilt. It’s a nonstarter.
Being against the privilege idea is not the same as being for racism.
You said: “[...] I see racism as active oppression.” And later: “Being against the privilege idea is not the same as being for racism.”
Who benefits the most from white supremacy? What would you call those benefits?
Maybe white privilege and white supremacy aren’t *exactly* the same thing. I’m still learning and thinking about this, and I may have spoken too soon before when I implied they are. But it seems clear to me that *they are directly related*.
And as an aside: what do you mean by “active”?
“The privilege paradigm sets up a series of impossibilities in terms of policies.”
What do you mean by that?
“As a white male who worked his way through college, grad school, and so forth, I received little help, I have never said that the privilege idea made me feel bad.”
Just because white privilege is not obvious to you doesn’t mean it’s not there. Just because it does not make your life totally problem-free doesn’t mean it’s not there. And excusing/denying/ignoring that we benefit from racism and colonialism is part of our privilege. And I didn’t say you said it made *you* feel bad. I said “you seem to be saying that fighting white privilege is about making whites feel bad”.
“But the privilege idea simply lays responsibility at every white’s door, without making a class analysis on any sort.”
Class privilege is a different axis of privilege than white privilege. They do intersect in complex ways. But people of ethnic backgrounds defined as white, in a white supremacist system, do *have* white privilege, regardless of class.
“The other part of this is that people who talk about privlege never seem to have any policy suggestions of any sort whatsoever.”
You [again] assume white privilege is not connected with white supremacy. I’d assume that many suggestions for policies to fight white supremacy would fight white privilege as well.
Also, you seem to think these [government/workplace/etc.] policies are THE important areas to focus on. No other strategies seem important to you? (This also relates to the “a series of impossibilities in terms of policies” stuff you said.)
“[...] maybe this is just to create a classless sense of white guilt.”
Again, no. It is not. Fighting white privilege is not about hurting white people’s feelings.
You seem to be assuming that
A) white people’s feelings are at the center of everything, and
B) there is *only one reason* anyone would disagree with you about white privilege. Because you seem to think that everyone who disagrees with you thinks alike.
Along with all this, there seems to be a kind of infinite loop to your thinking. You assume white privilege is not real. So you also assume there could not possibly be a real reason to recognize and fight it. On and on.
I’ll get back to you about “Do you see anyone giving up privlege?” later.
“You seem to be assuming that
A) white people’s feelings are at the center of everything, and
B) there is *only one reason* anyone would disagree with you about white privilege. Because you seem to think that everyone who disagrees with you thinks alike.”
No, I don’t think anyone’s feelings are at the center of anything. I’m, I’d like to think, trying to be objective. The danger in “privilege” is that everyone can make a good case for why many others are more privileged than they. I grant that there’s still a lot of subtle racism, but we’ve done much to help POC advance if they’ll bear up. My main argument is that that’s all we can possubly do.
I don’t understand your “only one reason” comment.
“No, I don’t think anyone’s feelings are at the center of anything.”
Regardless of your intent, you are being very white-centric.
And I disagree. I think the thoughts and feelings of people of color and indigenous people are central in regards to racism and colonialism. I realize I haven’t been acting like I believe that, and have been pretty white-centric myself in some of my comments. I’m sorry.
“I’m, I’d like to think, trying to be objective.”
Given your argument tactics, I find it hard to believe that you’re really trying to be “objective”. And I HATE the “white = objective views on white supremacy” trope. I’m pretty sure we CANNOT have objective views on white supremacy in the first place. For one thing, we benefit from it.
“The danger in “privilege” is that everyone can make a good case for why many others are more privileged than they.”
People can have privilege and be oppressed at the same time, in different ways. Privilege is complex. For example, I have white and middle-class privilege, but I don’t have male or straight privilege. Are you accusing people who disagree with you of playing Oppression Olympics? Because I don’t think anyone who disagrees with you here is really doing that. You, however, HAVE done this.
“I grant that there’s still a lot of subtle racism, but we’ve done much to help POC advance if they’ll bear up.”
This is extremely patronizing and racist garbage. You’re basically saying: “We awesome white saviors have done sooooooooo much for the poor helpless people of color and indigenous people. It is their fault they are still oppressed.”
“I don’t understand your “only one reason” comment.”
You seem to assume that all people who disagree with you about white privilege just want to make whites feel guilty. I apologize if I’m wrong about that. But what you said came across that way to me.
“We” means we all. I’d like to reiterate the idea that each of our private thoughts and feelings are not at all central. What counts is behavior. And the behavior that counts at the social level is policy behavior. Selling an idea of privilege to any group by itself isn’t likely to change policy. In fact selling whites on the idea of privilege is likely to be counterproductive. What should be happening is the notion of alliance. This would stress mutual benefit from new policies. What if “conservative” white working class or white rural people politically allied with POC, rather than saw them as compeitors?
You’re invoking the old “this concept is divisive” non-argument. Martin Luther King took this on when he wrote about “the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice [...]” (link).
And:
““We” means we all.”
Still seems very “mighty whitey” to me, given the context and the way you worded the comment. The comment is very much centered around HELPING people overcome oppression. This seems to position racialized people as “being helped”, rather than helping themselves and each other. And you seem very invested in dismissing “the white privilege idea”, because you think it’s about “creating white guilt”. So despite what you claim, it really does seem you’re mostly concerned with whites’ feelings. And your very next sentence was “My main argument is that that’s all we can possubly do.” It seems like the “we” there is “we whites”.
And this still doesn’t address that you seem to imply that it’s the fault of racialized people that they’re still oppressed.
“What counts is behavior.”
How does this even apply to what I said?
As for what you say about policy and “Selling an idea of privilege to any group by itself” — please elaborate. For one thing, I can’t tell how the “by itself” part applies here. I’m also not fond of your use of “selling” here: you’re still clearly implying that this is all about scamming whites.
Oh and I’ve made a lot of counterpoints you never responded to. I mean I’m sorry I’m taking so long to get back to you about things. But could you, in the mean time, please address what I said earlier that you seem to have ignored?
Numoi, I haven’t responded to many of your arguments because they’re basically labels: “white-centric,” “mighty whitey” etc. They’re not arguments. I also think that the best that we can do is try to be objective, in a general social science sense. Arguing from either people’s emotions or from identity-politics positions gets us nowhere. Alliances of whites and people of color might work to enact policies of benefit. Across the board imputation of privilege to race, or even gender, won’t work as long as we have classes that contain rich POC or rich women. Affirmative action was one such policy that did do some good historically. Regardless of what King said about white liberals, I don’t think the label fits me. I believe in radical control of business at a macro level, but am a libertarian at the micro level.
I have read Rage of a Privlege Class about the problems affluent Blacks have with race, but, as a relatively non-affluent person, I can tell you I’m not particularly moved by them.
I do think the “privilege” notion is a sell. Not that differentials in privilege are never true– they are ubiquitous (and concern far more than race or gender,) but that the notion may be self-defeating in ways that Dr. King mentions, but disparages. Most white allies won’t stick with this notion.
“[...] I haven’t responded to many of your arguments because they’re basically labels: “white-centric,” “mighty whitey” etc. They’re not arguments.”
No, they’re labels I used IN arguments. Go back and read my responses again. Just because I use labels does not mean that’s all there is to what I said.
“Arguing from either people’s emotions or from identity-politics positions gets us nowhere.”
[eye-roll] You want “not arguments but just labels”? HERE IT IS, from your own post. “Identity politics” is a favored buzz-term of whites in love with our privilege. It’s right up there with “political correctness” and “reverse-racism”. I’m also curious as to how “arguing from people’s emotions” applies to what I was saying. Maybe you misunderstood me, although I also probably should’ve said something different in the first place[1].
“Across the board imputation of privilege to race, or even gender, won’t work as long as we have classes that contain rich POC or rich women.”
Nobody said that white privilege is the only privilege that matters. I said the very opposite thing earlier, actually. You seem to have conveniently ignored that.
And YOU seem to be saying that CLASS privilege is a privilege that trumps everything. And this is really, really not true. There’s class privilege, yeah, and nobody here is disputing that. But there are also other privileges — white privilege, male privilege, cis privilege, neurotypical privilege, etc. These are different axes of privilege that often intersect. And a person can have some privileges and be oppressed in other ways, at the same time. I feel like I went over this already.
“Regardless of what King said about white liberals, I don’t think the label fits me. I believe in radical control of business at a macro level, but am a libertarian at the micro level.”
That was in reference to your *behavior*, and the opinions you seem to have. Not what you *call* yourself.
“I have read Rage of a Privlege Class about the problems affluent Blacks have with race, but, as a relatively non-affluent person, I can tell you I’m not particularly moved by them. ”
I’m not impressed with this. Thing is, you’re also white in a white supremacist system. So you don’t have to deal with white supremacy. We cannot understand what that’s like. You also like to pretend that class is the only privilege that matters. Again, one can have privilege and be oppressed at the same time. So… yeah, that was a pointless paragraph. Did you just want an excuse to slam that book?
“[...] the notion may be self-defeating in ways that Dr. King mentions, but disparages. Most white allies won’t stick with this notion.”
Everybody seems to have different opinions about the term “ally” used like this. But even if one considers the term ok, I’d argue that a white person who denies white privilege is in no way an “ally” to anyone except other whites.
The problem is not with the *concept* of white privilege, but with *the fact that so many whites deny our white privilege*. Privilege-deniers are the problem, not the concept of white privilege itself.
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[1] I was talking about centering the thoughts and feelings of racialized people. After thinking about this, I think I screwed up bad and should have said “centering racialized people” instead. Because that’s what I meant, and I realize what I actually said might imply that it’s *not* good to center the actual people. And that’s obviously really messed-up and white supremacist.
[First off, I apologize if I am in any way being bigoted / white-splaining / using wrong terms / turning the spotlight on myself, or anything like that. I'm also sorry I didn't write this in a very accessible way -- I'm sorry but as far as I can tell, and after lots of editing, this is the best way I could get my points across. I'm not very good at expressing myself.]
Ok, I’m going to echo the question that’s been asked over and over, because as far as I know, you have not yet answered: WHO is asking you to apologize for being white?
I have read several rants by white people who, despite living in a society of pro-white oppression, say that people are demanding that whites apologize for being white. Or that whites are being made to feel guilty for being white, or some other “whites are being oppressed for being white!”-type claim. And these whites always seem to feel that it is totally ok to:
A) throw the accusations out there without citing anyone — implying or outright stating that many (or *all*) racialized people are oppressing whites for being white (sometimes other whites are also accused of doing this, I suppose they’re considered “traitors”?), and clearly this is not true,
and/or (yes sometimes it’s some of both A and B)
B) falsely accuse a specific person or persons. And if the accused person or persons are cited, the accusors distort what they said/did and often just make things up.
Your rant follows much of this pattern.
Given the limitless variety of opinions, I’m sure there could be some people who believe whites should apologize for being white. But you make it seem like anyone who disagrees with you about white privilege is asking you to apologize for being white. And, as many have pointed out, you make it seem like there’s a *widespread request* for this, and as far as I know, there isn’t. I agree with PJ (comment-page-1/#comment-45655) — it’s a strawman argument and I think it’s an *extremely* dishonest and harmful way to try to make a point.
You, a white person in a pro-white racist/colonialist country, are asking us to believe that you are being racially victimized for being white. I agree with SassyNOLa (comment-page-1/#comment-45668) and ClayTheScribe’s friend (who said the first quote here: comment-page-2/#comment- 45883) — you are making this all about you. Like with the first line: “In the mind of some, the mere fact that I am white means it is audacious of me to comment on racism.” Here, it seems like you want us to think you are bravely speaking out despite people with this opinion allegedly oppressing you and trying to silence you for being white. I don’t believe this.
“It is not shameful to be aware of and acknowledge differences; it is shameful and harmful to ignore its existence. ” And here, are you also implying that people who disagree with you about white privilege are saying that we should act like everyone’s exactly the same?
As for what you say about critiques of “The Help”: I agree with UnApologetic (comment-page- 1/#comment-45666) and SassyNOLa (comment-page-1/#comment-45668) and ClayTheScribe’s friend (first friend quoted here: comment-page-2/#comment-45883). I don’t think I’ve witnessed the opinion you claim is being expressed *actually* being expressed by critics either. And I think the way you represent all criticisms of “The Help” so dismissively, and as this one single opinion, is extremely disrespectful to all the deep and VARIED insights of people criticizing the book/movie, including the insights and hard work done by reviewers, *whether anyone is actually expressing that opinion or not*. Because it is either FAR from the only opinion being expressed, or it is not being expressed at all. So again, you’re being *at best* willfully ignorant, and at worst blatantly lying.
Side note: I do not think it is invalid to criticize a monied white woman for interpreting the experiences of black women domestic workers. There are a lot of messed-up issues involved with authors representing people they are privileged over, and I wonder about this a lot. [End of side note.]
“My white “privilege” has not exempted me from racism; it came crashing through my car window during the L.A. riots, carried on a brick to the tune of, “white fucking bitch”. ” It’s too bad that this happened, but acting like this in any way compares to the effects of white racism in our pro-white racist/colonialist society is also extremely dishonest. Even labelling it “racism” seems iffy at best — I know a lot of people believe that such treatment of white people in a society that massively racially privileges whites is NOT racism (Beatrix seems to believe this [comment-page-1/#comment-45658]), and I tend to agree.
“For me, apologizing would be to acknowledge that I have somehow participated in the circumstances that demanded the apology; however, my only offense is the color of my skin.” And later: “My white “privilege” is not a gift that I had asked for [....] Being white is one element of many that helped to form my character and I do not see it as a flaw that needs to be excused, prize that needs to be exalted, or a privilege to be responsible for.” I understand that you did not invent racism/colonialism. But it seems to me like you are just *blatantly* dismissing responsibilities here. Despite the fact that you did not ask to benefit from people’s oppression, or help create that system of oppression in the first place (although I’d argue that your article certainly supports the current racist/colonialist system), *you still do get those benefits*. In one of your comments (/comment-page-1/#comment-45838), you claim that you DO, in fact, address your white privilege, but this whole article seems to be dedicated to *dismissing* white privilege and responsibilities relating to it. I mean, later on in the article, you go so far as to say “race privilege is an illusion”. I said before that you’d admitted some white privileges exist only to deny many others, but now I wonder if you’re not trying to deny them ALL.
And about that very line: “[...] race privilege is an illusion that is perpetuated by the filters that were formed by a community’s experience.” Ok, I’m sorry but I’m having trouble understanding exactly what you mean by “formed by a community’s experience” (sorry if this is totally obvious, my head’s been fuzzy lately). But I do know that racism and white privilege are, in fact, VERY REAL. They have very real effects that have been, and continue to be, studied and fought by many, many people. You seem to be brushing off billions of lived experiences (past and present), as well as *so much* research / activism / deconstruction / all such hard and NECESSARY work that does not fit your privilege-denying-white-person opinions.
Thank you thank you thank you, numol.
As a fellow white woman, I think this article sucks.
Me too! Really sad that this site published this article.
Numoi, if identity politics were all, then my identity would be as valid as anyone elses. I do believe that political correctness is a problem. It’s because it’s white middle class euphimistic language. Working class and average people don’t talk like that. It’s the language of would-be social controllers who live in Cambridge or Berkeley. Upper middle class whites. Not buying into white privilege is not the same as “white supremacy.” Nope, that would be someone like Jan Smuts, George Linclon Rockwell, or George Wallace.
There is reverse racism. Example: brick thrown through window in the LA riots. Class is the master driver of difference. It does incorporate race and gender as it becomes more important. But still.
It’s telling that the major article on white privilege was written by Peggy McKinnon (I believe) when she was at Wellsley. This is an enormously economically privileged campus. The professors too have elite backgrounds. Draw your own conclusions.
wrong again. many working-class people do believe in white privilege. and there is no such thing as “reverse racism”, because one cannot be racist against whites in a white supremacist system (racism requires racial privilege). upper middle class whites did not invent these critiques of white supremacy. acting like they did, and lumping “white privilege” in with the back-patting language of smug self-satisfied upper middle class white savior-complex types, seems like an attempt to erase racialized people from the equation. i AM drawing my own conclusions — ironic that you would say that as you spout right-wing catch phrases. and no, class is not the master driver of difference. you have not proven this — only deflected, dismissed, eye-rolled and sneered. and honestly, if you’re just going to take this “conversation” around in circles again [like you're doing now], then just leave.
Well, I’ve been never thought of as right wing. I’ve seen very little that’s analytical from you. Just epithets, lables, and the like. Since I don’t eye-roll and sneer, I have to assume that those are behaviors that you do, and you are projecting your own behavior. I won’t be leaving this site, but I think I’m done with this thread.
This may be the worst article ever written on a liberal blog – ever. Lets, see: no consistent logic or reasoning, various contradictory and hypocritical statements, lack of knowledge concerning key concepts and terms (e.g. privilege, racism) and no acknowledgement of methodological failings or concessionary statements. As a first step to remedying your profound ignorance, please see: Peggy Macintosh’s “White Privilege: Unpacking the invisible knapsack”. A step-by-step guide to making you less idiotic.
nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf
Absolutely! The author clearly does not have a clear understanding of the subject matter. Articles like this are so damaging. Why do people think they can just make up their own crap theory about what privilege is? There is an academic definition, people!
I am sorry to only discover this now. This is excellent – exactly the kind of analysis this blog could use more of in terms, of race, gender, and whatever other factors the powers that be use to divide people. Of course, the howls of protest and scolding by the PC police are predictable. I find especially amusing the idea that you don’t “understand” privilege, racism, etc. because how could any one who really understands disagree with those “enlightened, progressive” champions of identity politics. Surely no white person could read the work of an uber-privileged ivory tower academic like Peggy McIntosh and not see that their lives are just like hers (or even better if we have that vaunted “male privilege!”)
Well, “progressives”, your opponents understand you all too well. You’ve been playing the same word games for years, trying to re-define words like “racism” and “sexism”. Bigotry by “oppressed” groups against “privileged” groups doesn’t count, but anything that the “privileged” group does to make the most easily offended self-appointed spokespeople of the “oppressed” group uncomfortable is just as bad as slavery and genocide. We can point out that dictionary doesn’t mention anything about power or privilege in defining the various “isms”, but you say it doesn’t matter. The dictionary definition not matter, but yours does, even as you take the lack of the word misandry in most spell-checkers as proof positive that bigotry and discrimination against men does not exist. Why do your definitions matter more and everyone else’s don’t? Because you and your patrons in the hallowed halls of academe say so.
And, no, pointing out that we weren’t born on easy street is NOT “Oppression Olympics.” If Marrie says she faced challenges because she’s Jewish, Henry describes his struggles climbing the class ladder, or I talk about my difficulties from being learning disabled, this is not “Oppression Olympics” unless we say this makes our lives harder than everyone else’s. None of us have made those comparisons. We are saying we all of have obstacles in life, let’s focus on helping each other overcome them rather than getting caught up in envy and blaming each other for circumstances we were born into through no fault of our own.
It is possible for racism to exist on the part of minorities. They do have power. See what the proper race box check gets you on a college admit. That’s power. See who gets the attention of HR if complaining of a hostile work environment. That’s power.
That’s right, Richard, and not only that, members of so-called oppressed groups can have more conventional power over so-called privileged ones on an individual level. For example, a white man can have a black woman as a boss. In that situation it really doesn’t matter to him if white men in the aggregate have more power than black women. If she is bigoted against him he can suffer, he can be harmed just as much as she could in the reverse situation. What many identity politics supporters seem to fail to grasp is that we live our lives as individuals not as members of borg-like collectives.
White privilege meme is just a way to shame people, the same as the male privilege. For example, I am from Poland, Central Europe (or Eastern, depends on how you analyze things). I am a “Slav” compare it with slave… the problem with some people lies in their way of thinking: kings, priests or warlords did not conquer (and pillaged, or took slaves or whatever) because they had another skin color. It was because THEY WERE WEAKER and wealthy enough/had good enough lands to make the trip worthwhile.
The same thing happened with my country- when we were strong (a looong time ago…) our kings conquered, took control of new territories etc. and history remembers them as good kings. Of course, when it’s time for payback our neigbours (Russia, Prussia, Austria, Sweden) are portrayed quite negatively as you can imagine.
NO IT IS NOT! You may be feeling shame because it is an uncomfortable topic, NOT because anyone WANTS you to feel that way!