‘We now have a clear and direct through line tying rampant homophobia to resulting grief, isolation, and early mortality in heterosexual men.’
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This week, Mark Greene shared a huge piece of his heart in Why Do We Murder the Beautiful Friendships of Boys? At once coldly logical and passionately emotional, Mark’s article explored and lamented the devastating loss of close, loving male friendships that boys suffer as they hit adolescence, and the impact the resulting isolation and dependence (for most) on women for connection and intimacy has on them as men. An equally passionate discussion of Mark’s post took place in our Writers Group, excerpts of which appear below.
Thomas Fiffer, one of our executive editors, notes that homophobia severely limits men’s social options and opportunities for connection and bonding.
Thomas G Fiffer: Mark, You’ve hit on one of the most pernicious double-standards—that the boundaries circumscribing male friendships prohibit affection to protect against the presumed loss of social standing and chance of attracting a female partner that ensue from real or perceived homosexual identification, while women have no equivalent restrictions and are encouraged to be affectionate with multiple women. In addition, all-male social activities, whether one-on-one or group, need to be legitimized through an activity—sports, exercise, the pursuit of a hobby—while women suffer no stigma from simply getting together to catch up, commiserate, or even watch a favorite film together while eating ice cream in bed. When women do this, it’s cute. If men do it, it’s “weird” or “scary.”
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeLisa Duggan: As my friend Raven said so succinctly, “We’re more scared of a man in a pink shirt than a man with a gun.”
Thomas G Fiffer: A man with a gun threatens a specific individual or group of people with physical harm. A man in a pink shirt threatens the established boundaries of masculinity. Society and the media are highly skilled at heightening our anxiety over global fears that have little or no impact on us personally while encouraging us to ignore the real, local, and prevalent threats.
Gail Hoffer-Loibl: I have always admired the relationship my husband has with his friends. I don’t know if they would ever say out loud that they love one another, but their actions show they do. When they are needed, they show up. This was made clear by just how many came out for my father-in-law’s funeral. Sadly, a few of my husband’s past friendships deteriorated because the guys lost part of their identity after marriage.
Mark Greene: What is most clear to me is we now have a clear and direct through line tying rampant homophobia to resulting grief, isolation, and early mortality in heterosexual men.
Thomas G Fiffer: So then the irony is that homophobia and not homosexuality is perhaps the greatest threat to men. Homophobia galvanizes emotion over hating the “other” and denying aspects of the other that actually live within the self (self-hatred), while homosexuality legitimizes men loving men without inhibition (whether sexually or in friendship) and in doing so, also promotes healthy self-love.
Mark Greene takes the discussion of homophobia a step further, identifying it as hatred of the feminine.
Mark Greene: And homophobia is just an offshoot of hatred for the feminine, which cuts men off from their most powerful internal emotional capacities. The end result is we amputate our legs and then wonder why we resent people that can walk.
Doug Wagner brings in the influence of stereotypical male roles and responsibilities.
Doug Wagner: Expectations and duty play into it. Once in a relationship and family setting the priorities become provide, spend time with kids, spend time with spouse. Personal stuff and friends go by the wayside (grow up, you are selfish). Later in life the world shrinks again when the kids and providing are not as important because they are independent. Once you’ve lost the connections and relationships it is even harder to get them back because it is a skill you no longer have and your identification to roles limits you. Lots of pieces all playing together here.
Michael Kasdan: SO SO true Doug Wagner. Doug … Why do you think its different for women? ^^
Thomas G Fiffer: Homophobia seems to be hatred of the feminine when present in a male. It’s a hatred of behavior, attributes, choices, etc. that are perceived as weak, submissive, fragile, and unassertive, and abandoning the standard sources of male power—dominance and control. The same qualities that typical homophobes value in women (because they allow women to be dominated and controlled) are considered anathema in men, because if men are allowed to be that way, the system of dominance and control breaks apart. This same dynamic encourages women to use sex and manipulation as their power sources by not treating them as equals, then reviles them for being sluts or teases. In addition, men who have been cut off from their feminine side may unconsciously resent those men who have embraced it. “I wasn’t allowed to be that way, so he can’t either.”
Thomas Fiffer talks about the way women tend to develop community social networks and local friendships more effectively than men and notes that warm physical affection threatens traditional masculinity because it is viewed as a feminine quality.
Thomas G Fiffer: Michael, Doug may have a different answer (or the same one), but I think in heterosexual relationships and marriages, women develop a social network both for friendship and support with childcare responsibilities, while men’s networks center on professional advancement. So a woman’s friendships with other women and mothers, even if she is working, blend into her fulfilling her essential parenting responsibilities, while for a man, unless he is stay-at-home dad, non-work-related friendships are seen as self-indulgent and serving only personal desires and need-fulfillment. As for why female friendships that involve physical affection are non-threatening, I think, as I am learning from Mark, that it’s because women being physically affectionate with each other reinforces a feminine quality, while men doing so introduces a feminine quality into traditional masculinity.
Mark Greene: But I also believe that men are trained out of connecting. Its a form of emotional sleep walking that intentionally avoids connection. It is done in self defense, so as not to be viewed as feminine but the end result it a chair in the corner alone, which we know is very damaging to our health and longevity.
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Gail Hoffer-Loibl wonders about the male bonding rituals of sports and strip clubs.
Gail Hoffer-Loibl: I also find it interesting that one of the most common forms of heterosexual bonding involves going to strip clubs. How many bachelor parties don’t involve this right of passage? I’m not here to pass judgment on that activity (I use to go with my husband). I just find it interesting that it seems the only acceptable forms of male bonding are looking at naked women or watching sports.
Michael Kasdan: Oh great, now there’s a War on Sports
Mark Greene: LOL
Doug Wagner: It is a becoming more of an equal opportunity problem for women now as well (super mom), the biggest difference of course is that most of them can tap into the feminine throughout. Men become detached from that side from early on. Still, I would imagine that women can also detach from those things as well and we will see bigger numbers there over time.
Thomas G Fiffer: Gail, In both cases, the people being watched are objectified to a large degree and treated as entertainment. Think about how a fan gets mad at a football player for fumbling or missing a tackle, as if the fan has a right to flawless performance. There are other male bonding rituals, such as going on camping trips or climbing mountains that emphasize toughness, resilience, and strength. But if men aren’t bonding over showing their own strength, then they’re bonding through activities that show their power over others. “I’m in the audience. You’re on the field or the strip club floor. You’re there to serve me.” Hazing rituals are similar displays of power over others, the power to admit them to the club or inner circle.
Doug Wagner: Sports I can understand; part of the warrior within.
Gail Hoffer-Loibl: Great points. I realize as a woman, I am on the outside looking in. I just find this dialogue so compelling. Plus I have a vested interest in it as the mom of a boy.
Sports editor Michael Kasdan tries to steer the discussion into creating a post.
Michael Kasdan: I appreciate those thoughts on Sports. I think its way more complex than that, actually. Would make a fascinating post Thomas G Fiffer and Doug Wagner. See what I just did there.
Doug Wagner: Nope Michael, totally oblivious to subtleties. Guy thing. (Yes much more complex all way around.)
Michael Kasdan: I was thinking — Why We Watch or Play Sports — to unveil the complexity. Because I bet the answer(s) will surprise…
Dads & Families Editor Lisa Duggan asks about the purpose of homophobia.
Lisa Duggan: Can we deconstruct this more? What is the purpose of homophobia? What status quo is maintained by promoting heterosexuality in men? Why is it not an equal threat in women? In my opinion it’s about property rights. If you don’t sire you don’t extend your inherited ownership. You threaten the power structure that is built on inherited wealth.
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeMichael Kasdan: Wow – I think its based on something totally different Lisa Duggan.
Lisa Duggan: Simply put, if I bed one hundred men the outcome is not increased property but decreased value. If a man beds one hundred women he will likely increase his property. To speak to your comment about women’s social circles; my alliances don’t mean shit to anyone except my ind. comfort. But male alliances can make or break fortunes. And…if you’re an empathetic male, how do I bond you? Where will your loyalty lie? I need you now soldier…don’t go to pieces on me. I need you to kill.
Michael Kasdan: I just don’t see property as the constant that runs through it. I think its far more visceral than that. But I’m willing to think about it.
Lisa Duggan: I hear you Michael, and I am thinking out loud. But do we tell boys they are free to grow up and become stay at home fathers who are financially dependent upon their wives? Do we encourage and advise them that it’s a legitimate path for a man? No. When boys express desires that are not in keeping with futures as owners or earners, we dismiss, discourage and denounce them. If a homosexual male represents a man whose sole purpose is not to grow up and provide, it would constitute a very big threat to all men AND women. (Not provide, because he’s not going to have kids or sex that leads to the resp. of kids.)
Michael Kasdan: I see the side of the coin where we do that because being feminine — orienting your “job” or day to day around those feelings of nurturing – is “totally gay.” But its true that we can’t get out from under the fact that our society tells men that they are valued as earners. (But homosexual men *are* earners and do own property…so I’m not sure I see it … )
Lisa Duggan: But their property dies with them — it is not forwarded. All dynasties depend upon progeny. Think of the corollary, which is anathema to a man: I’m considered “successful” as a woman if I can get a man to take care of me and my kids. I’m encouraged to be a life-long free-loader and bum (which is what they call SAHDs.)
Michael Kasdan: Oh you mean the famed — as I heard at University of Pennsylvania — MRS Degree?
Michael Kasdan: (You know studying — oh who fucking cares WHAT because the end-game is just marrying some guy and become the Mrs. ___ )
Lisa Duggan talks about how women earning more than men affects relationship dynamics.
Lisa Duggan: Yes. That’s a real thing. My value increases with my husband’s salary — yours decreases with your wife’s higher salary.
Michael Kasdan: But what if I’m more than just an earner?
Lisa Duggan: If that were the dynamic. I know many cross-gendered couples — the woman earns substantially more, the man provides substantially more childcare — they are not valued more. They say, “What kind of man doesn’t (want to) provide for his family?
Michael Kasdan: I like to think that is changing.
Lisa Duggan: It is. Very much so. This site is all about that change. When we advocate for women’s equality, we must advocate for men’s emotional liberation at the same time.
Lisa Duggan: Women will not be free until men are.
Michael Kasdan: I wholeheartedly agree. That is why your perspective on this is so valuable.
And Michael Kasdan proves he is always at the ready with a relevant video.
Michael Kasdan: Garth Brooks agrees too: Garth Brooks video: We Shall Be Free Video from Big Chief Studio on Vimeo.
Michael Kasdan: Now with 100% more Garth. #FriendsInLowPlaces. No! Jesus, not THAT Garth. Why are you sharing this thing gratuitously here anyway! Check this out.
Orin Hahn chimes in with a number of insights, including the idea that sports is legitimized group sex.
Orin Hahn: Ok several thoughts in random order:
1 damn you Mark Greene you made me feel (no homo) (not that there’s anything wrong with that)
2. Why women but not men on touching? Because we conceptualize women as the holding place of sex. Like a storage vault. We pursue, they contain, put more vaults together great. Stack pursuers on the sideline the game is threatened.
This ideology goes deep, look at empowered women dialogues about allowing them to own their sex, no supposed need for men. Why? because we’re allowed to “get it”. Why is there no empowered partnered movement to see whereas equals we contain and share it?
3. Sports events are socially legitimate group sex. Go to any bar and listen, just listen and feel as crowds moan and ooh and ahh, where else can men viscerally be so emotionally expressive in their lives. Even strip bars usually limit that for safety.
4. When I was 6 my mom took me to a therapist to help with her post divorce issues that she was concerned I had and my school was involved somehow. The therapist showed me pics of families and such and asked me to say what happened. I creates emotional narratives.
Later my mom said that she (the therapist) had sent a summary saying I was showed homosexual tendencies due to my extreme sensitivity. My mom told me how she made sure to have that taken out of my “permanent record”. Not sure what was stranger, being called gay by a therapist or “saved” by my mom and told about said saving.
5. My best friend growing up and I went through several cycles where our respective partners HATED our closeness and playfulness. The obvious message that we were immature for enjoying each other as much as we did. It became a choice at several points over the last 28 years. So that’s my unedited thoughts on men, boys, feelings and connection.Michael Kasdan: Good good stuff. And the Editor in me is jumping to get someone—but who?!—to write an article for GMPSports on this “Sports events are socially legitimate group sex.”
Orin Hahn: No fucked up stuff. But I care enough to keep caring so I share.
Michael Kasdan:
Michael Kasdan: There is a thin line between good and fucked up.
Thomas G Fiffer: And that line is why we’re not The Fucked Up Men Project.
Orin Hahn: Oh man does that exist? Cause I got stories about that too.
Michael Kasdan: God I love you people.
Thomas G Fiffer: The domain appears to be available …
Michael Kasdan: (You were micro-seconds ahead of me….)
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Photo—maira.gall/Flickr
One thing that is important to understand is that men have many more restrictions than women. Men are more restricted in expressions of emotions, career choices, what to wear, what colors are ok etc. For example women can wear pants and it is no big deal but the converse isn’t generally true, men can’t wear skirts unless they are very brave or Scottish. Part of this is because of the inherent difference between masculine and feminine energy. Masculine energy is differentiating energy (defines things by comparing them then figuring out how they are different from one another). Feminine energy is… Read more »
Comments around here tend to get hostile when someone regurgitates the theory of men avoid femininity because we “hate women”. The truth is masculinity is a form of emotional self immolation based on the belief that it is our duty to provide and protect our family and our community. We tell ourselves that being submissive and weak or vulnerable is a privilege only women should have. The hate, and self hate comes after we fail to live up to that societal expectation.
I’ve don’t think I’ve heard someone use that phrase since middle school, and I’m coming up on 29… is it actually re-emerging in a new demographic, or just desperately clinging to life?
So why would we not think it’s more the Schrodinger rapist explanation? In general men in society only fear sexual violence from other men. Because it’s sex based violence, there is a societal expectation that the man committing it has to be gay unless they’re in prison. Women don’t in general have a fear of being raped by other women outside of prison. Men in general don’t have a fear of being raped by women.
The overwhelming majority of rapists-regardless of their victims’ gender- are heterosexual males, and much of the public knows this, so your explanation fails miserably. Even outside of prison, the biggest abusers of boys are heterosexul males because they are more likely to have access to boys than to girls.
Until we stop excusing and hiding female rapists, both in public life and in prisons.
Yes, I agree with that sentiment. You cannot rely on govt. statistics in order to show that women barely rape because govt. stats are skewed. They are skewed and biased because society (both men and women) and the legal system are biased. Females are more likely to get away with rape and sexual molestation and thus, not make the sex offender registry list or rape convictions crime statistics. Guess who the biggest culprit is, though, responsible for this imbalance & double standard? Heterosexual men continue to make excuses for and be more lenient on female sex abusers and female rapists… Read more »
Why are men so afraid of being seen as homosexual – WOMEN. Women use sex to manipulate men both positive and negative. Women are fast to label a man gay should he not be a slave to the sexual manipulation of women. he becomes a sissy, or not a real man, or a wimp and his sexuality is questioned. To deny women have a role to play in homophobia is obtuse. Before technology enabled women to join the work force in large numbers, women relied on male hetrosexuality to provide for them. The more men who where ‘hetro’ the larger… Read more »
@ Amy glass When you include made to penetrate as rape as it should be, CDC estimates place the incidence of the rape of men at nearly the same level as the rape of women with 80% or more of the rapists being women. Men are overwhelming the victimized gender in prisons with women being about 40% of their rapists and people in prison are roughly 30 times more likely to suffer rape than a woman outside of prison is on any given year about 80 times more likely in juvenile detention with about 80% of the perpetrators being female.… Read more »
Mark Greene: And homophobia is just an offshoot of hatred for the feminine, which cuts men off from their most powerful internal emotional capacities. The end result is we amputate our legs and then wonder why we resent people that can walk. I’m not so sure its that easy to wrap up. When I think of the base reason for homophobia I see that that its purpose is to keep men in there place as stoic providers that suffer in silence. While I can agree that homophobia cuts men off from their most powerful internal emotional capacities I don’t think… Read more »
And its more of the same when it comes to emotions – women = good, men = bad.
Never will they realise the role or the reasons women had invested in shaming men for homosexuality.
Progressive politics is nothing more than Cultural Marxism rebranded.
Great discussion, thank you; keep up the good work!
You people are too old to be discussing street vanacular. The phrase No’***** is used to assert that the person being complimented is not in any way, shape, or form, in a dominant possition over the guy paying him the compliment or showing him admiration.
It means “I am not weak for this man”
Being weak is not allowed in manhood. Being submissive to another man is an affront to your own masculine identity.
No’***** is a fear of vulnerability/frailty/weakness.