Developmental psychologist Ritch Savin-Williams argues that most gay teens are not in peril, and that the well-intentioned It Gets Better campaign nonetheless promotes a false “suffering suicidal script.”
The recent tragic deaths of several teens who were gay, or were believed to be gay, have received national attention and reminded us of the unrelenting pain and desperation that we believe characterize the lives of gay youth. But this portrait is an overgeneralization that communicates a cynical, hopeless, and inaccurate message that to be young and gay is to suffer.
Despite its apparent public appeal, scientific research simply does not support the picture of gay youth in psychological peril. Rather, many gay youth are proud, enjoy life, and, by most accounts, appear to be quite ordinary adolescents and young adults. In fact, there has never been a better time to be young and gay.
For most gay youth, the truth is not “It Gets Better.” The truth is, “It’s Better, Right Now!”
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In response to the popular view that there is a gay youth suicide epidemic, it’s important to realize that there is no scientific evidence to support it. There is no scientific data that compares gay and straight youth on completed suicide rates.
Why do we believe the suicide epidemic myth to be true? Likely because early research conducted in the 1970s and 1980s—based on small, biased samples of homeless youth, prostitutes, substance abusers, and military rejects—reported a horrific existence. From these lives the myth of the suicidal gay youth grew. It is still with us.
This myth is embraced by both ends of the political spectrum. Progressives, gay activists, and helping professionals (clinicians, medical providers, public health officials) believe that such dire messages will raise awareness of gay-rights issues and garner needed services for gay youth. In addition, government funding for research often depends more on investigations that explore what goes wrong than what goes right in human development.
Conservative religious and political advocates use the gay suicide myth to give warning to youth who are “considering” being gay or who have crossed the line and might be a candidate for conversion therapy that a gay life is hazardous to their health. Their banner is “Be Healthy, Be Straight”—as if it were a choice, and an easy one.
From these early research studies to the present day, the proportion of at-risk gay youth has significantly decreased. The major difference now is that when we ask gay youth about their mental health, we can tap into more representative samples of youth. As more young people come out as gay, they are looking healthier. Another interpretation is that life is better for gay youth now than it was for those growing up 30 years ago.
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When research reports gay versus straight differences in depression, anxiety, and suicidality, they evaporate when one does one or all of the following.
1) Separate lesbians from bisexual women. In previous research, the two groups were combined because of small numbers. Once separated, lesbian youth often report equal or even greater mental health than heterosexual women.
2) Control for gender expression. It is not sexual orientation per se that is the most accurate predictor of at-risk status. Rather, many youth (regardless of their sexuality) are at-risk if they do not act like someone of their sex is “supposed” to act. That is, bullies select their victims based less on their same-sex sexual attractions than on their gender non-conformity. Gay quarterbacks and track stars in high school are not bullied to the same degree as are gay theater and drama club members.
3) Consider that gay youth are more likely than straight youth to give “false positive” statements. Some gay youth report that they attempted suicide, but further questioning reveals that they actually did not. Perhaps they had a suicidal thought, but that’s not the same thing as a suicide attempt. Why gay youth are more likely than straight youth to falsely report their mental health status is not known.
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Given these doubts about a real gay-versus-straight difference in mental health, from a developmental psychological perspective, the larger picture is more compelling for a positive view of gay youth. Research has shown no gay-versus-straight difference in the number and quality of adolescent friendships, peer popularity, closeness and connectedness to parents, personality characteristics, and positive mental health.
When we ask not about mental-health problems such as depression but about positive characteristics such as psychological wellbeing, self-esteem, and life satisfaction, gay youth appear as “healthy” as straight youth.
Based on my read of the scientific literature, the conclusion I reach is that gay youth are rather ordinary adolescents and young adults. Yes, some are at-risk, but these clinically fragile youth exist in the same proportion and to the same degree among heterosexual youth.
Why this is important is that as a clinician, I’m worried about the “message” we’re giving to gay youth. I’m worried about suicide contagion (publicizing gay youth suicide may provoke similar behavior among vulnerable youth). I’m worried about our inability to understand their lives. And, I’m worried about adult tendencies to insert our life experiences onto those of youth. Just because we had a difficult gay adolescence does not mean that today’s gay youth experience the same pain.
Maybe we should listen to youth about their actual lives. If we did, we would learn that, for the most part, the “suffering suicidal script” is not an accurate one. In reality, the gay kids are all right.
This article has been updated with links to the cited studies.
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For other Good Men Project Magazine articles on gay youth and bullying, check out…
Battling the Bullies, by Jared Stearns
On Bullies, by Dave Ford
Just because you are unaware of it doesn’t mean that it’s not there. The last thing a gay teen who is terrified about coming out of the closet, or is terrified of hurting or disappointing their parents, is “i’m suicidal” and they are very unlikely to mention their sexuality to anyone but maybe a friend or two before they kill themselves. So you are absolutely right, there is no accurate straight vs gay suicide rate, but there are two things that lead me to believe that there is still a problem but I’ll get to that in a second. .… Read more »
Well I’m using all of my power right now to avoid profanity. I remember quite well being a gay teen. When your not out your forced to repress emotions and can become depressed because you can’t express yourself. When you do come out not only are you made fun of to your face but the more meaningful blows are when you hear a glimpse of people talking about you behind your back and you know they don’t just make fun of you for their own pleasure but because they actually do despise you. As for the suicide and depression I… Read more »
Dear Daniel, The bullying and the resulting pain you’ve received in your life are horrific and inexcusable in this supposedly “progressive” society. I hope that you have the strength and support to move beyond the idiots. Second, I have been gay since the day I was born (if not before) and I have dedicated my life to change the world in a way that will reduce the kind of experiences that you had. I realize that not all of us agree on how best to do this and I can understand that you believe my emphasis on emphasizing the strengths… Read more »
Much to the relief of many of you, this will be my last post. I am covering again and again the same territory, so it’s time for me to move onto other projects. It has been quite a ride, and a learning experience. I wish all of you the best, and to keep an open mind and to listen to our youth.
Ritch.
The teenage years are difficult for most people and the bullying that gay people experience only serves to exacerbate the pain in the maturation process. I think its important to teach all teenagers, gay or straight, that it gets better. I look back now at the really popular people in high school and find it quite funny and pitiful that they are all still partying and drinking together. Its important to show teenagers that high school is really only four years and you never have to speak or see those people ever again when its over. And not to mention… Read more »
You make some good points here and SOMEBODY needs to hold social scientists, journalists, and activists accountable for making over-arching claims in the absence of sufficient evidence. Those claiming that we’re in a sudden LGBT suicide crisis deserve tough scrutiny. However, you didn’t stop there. You make a claim, which is also your title, that “The Gay Kids Are All Right.” Where’s your proof? Every good scientist knows that the burden of proving something lies on whomever makes the claim. Now it’s on you. Furthermore, the more a claim deviates from conventional views, the more evidence is required from a… Read more »
All excellent points. I agree that “Every good scientist knows that the burden of proving something lies on whomever makes the claim. Now it’s on you.” One could argue, however, that the basic premise in social science is one of “no difference” between groups and that it is up to those who assert a group difference to prove it. Part of my critique of previous studies is that they do not demonstrate the group difference. That analysis seems a bit picky within the present context, so I’ll drop it. My dilemma is not knowing how to show to you the… Read more »
Yeah, arguing for no evidence of a difference in sexual orientation is different from saying things are hunky dory. That may be your personal experience, but it’s not scientifically justified. The scientific consensus is that homosexuality is linked to suicide, depression, substance abuse, and many other mental illnesses. This is debatable, and I’m curious to learn more from reading your book, but even if you can dismantle that view, it doesn’t warrant making overly rosy statements about LGBT youths. Non-scientific statements based on your own personal experience may reasonably hold a more positive perspective, but be careful how you phrase… Read more »
I said that there is no difference in mental health between gay and straight youth and I believe that the scientific evidence backs me up on this. The “scientific consensus” you speak of does not exist; it is very debatable within the scientific literature. Not so sure I made “overly rosy statements,” but perhaps that is a matter of personal interpretation.
BTW, the religious right is extremely likely to use the “suicidal literature” to buttress their view that gay teens should undergo conversion therapy. It is like “magic” for them–select what you want and throw away the rest.
Ritch.
A scientific consensus implies general agreement, not necessarily unanimity (e.g., global warming, evolution, etc.). If you take a look at Wikipedia’s article on suicide among LGBT youth, you’ll see that it doesn’t even include a dissenting opinion! Maybe you could be the very first to write one for this article (and others), as thus far nobody has questioned their LGBT/mental health link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_in_medicine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_sexual_orientation_and_medicine To be fair, I don’t think any progressives are arguing that being LGBT by itself causes mental health problems, but rather it’s homophobia and heterosexism that are to blame. Can we at least agree… Read more »
“Select what you want and throw away the rest.” Funny, that is exactly what you do.
Cute, but not true.
Would you also say the same for those who say gay youth are more suicidal, depressed, etc. than straight youth?
Is it that difficult to believe that our gay youth are normal?
Nope, I would not say the same for those who state that about gay youth. I say this because I have spent significant time researching this issue and have found an equally significant and overwhelming base of studies and research that support that finding. I can’t seem to find any research supporting yours that does not have your name printed on it.
Also, big difference between “normal” and “suicidal, depressed, etc.” Gay youth are inherently normal. The other descriptors (“suicidal, depressed, etc.”) are the results of a homophobic society. Stop confusing the two.
I know this is almost a year old but if you had really spent any time researching this topic, you’d actually find lots of research about how homosexuals are as “fine” as their heterosexual peers, most of it without the Savin-Williams name on it. There’s also a fair amount of research attempting to do away with the “gay crisis” stigma as well as really interesting research showing that certain aspects of homosexual life cause homosexuals to happier and more satisfied with their lives than their heterosexual peers. And by research, let me clarify that I mean actual legislative academic research,… Read more »
*legislative was supposed to be legitimate
I want to thank you for being an advocate for gay youth Ritch, However, I have always disagreed with your perspective that things are better for gay youth BEFORE they come out. It is true that they negotiate the coming out process earlier and that they are better than those in my generation (I am 47). However, it is absolutely not true that before they come they are better. In my experience, it is exactly the same for gay and lesbian children today than it was when we were growing up. The cultural trauma of hiding one’s identity and being… Read more »
Thanks for the kind words Joe. However, I do not recall ever making the claim that gay kids are necessarily healthier BEFORE they come out (come out to self or come out to others? Two very different processes). Have I? I am not sure how I or anyone else would know because such kids are awfully difficult to get to in our research. Not even sure how one would identify them (except to ask out to self but not out to others). What I have done is to “question” the assumption that gay kids who are not out are necessarily… Read more »
I am glad for the clarification Ritch. I don’t think I have read anything from you or anyone else in terms of before the coming out process. Seems like a new concept for people to consider. As a clinician who treats gay teens before, during and after the coming out process they all say exactly what was said by gays and lesbians from past generations in that before coming out they were as frightened and traumatized about what would happen to them. I do agree that after they come out, even here in the midwest, things are better for most… Read more »
Just to be clear, in terms of your statement, “I think the fact that suicides of gay teens has not gone down in numbers let’s us know things are not much better. I have never heard reports that gay teens attempting or committing suicide are going down in numbers” I want to re-state my position. First, we have no data on gay teen suicides, so whether it has gone up, down, or stayed the same, we don’t know. Second, we do know that the reported suicide attempt has decreased dramatically over the past generation. Whether this is because of an… Read more »
Ritch stated, “First, we have no data on gay teen suicides, so whether it has gone up, down, or stayed the same, we don’t know.” So then how can it be asserted that gay kids are alright? Those who say that gay youth are in pain and prone to suicide cannot–in Ritch’s estimation–say this because there is not enough evidence (in his opinion) to support it. But if lack of evidence is used to negate that, how can that same lack of evidence support “Gay youth are fine”?
The answers lie in the clinical practices of the therapists treating these kids. And you are right it would have to be the kids who are out to themselves but not to others–which are the kids I tend to treat along with those who are simply out and dealing with a normative gay youth life which is so wonderful to see.
To Question: Gay teen suicides = death. We have no data on suicides by sexual orientation. As to being in pain and prone to suicide, that is another matter (though I maintain that we do not have adequate data and that there are data that dispute this, on a group level). By “fine” and “all right” I have always said in these posts that I mean no group difference with straight youth on developmental and psychological health. If I were to maintain that gay youth are healthier than straight youth (no data to support this view), then that would be… Read more »
Wow. I’ve never read so much bullshit all in one article. This is so ignorant I want to throw up. How can someone write about a topic when they don’t know shit about it. I’m nonviolent and this article makes me want to punch the writer in the face. To whoever wrote this or agrees with it: get you head out of your ass, open your eyes, and shut your god damn mouth.
Dear Readers,
At the risk of further antagonizing you, but in the spirit of information and conversation, a reader back channeled me on a recent critique of the It Gets Better Project.
By forwarding this I want to be clear that I am NOT endorsing these points, although if you have been hanging on this long you will recognize that some of the 13 points I find more compelling than others. Perhaps this magazine might sponsor an article on these points?
http://tempcontretemps.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/why-i-dont-like-dan-savages-it-gets-better-project-as-a-response-to-bullying/
Ritch.
Maybe what everyone can take away from all this is that generalizations of any kind can be damaging, and stigma of any extreme is bad (i.e. depressed/suicidal vs. happy/alright). There needs to be a balance. We have to highlight what is good about our gay population as a whole, as young individuals, sons and daughters, students and teachers, mothers and fathers. But we cannot understate, overlook, or dismiss the negatives that are a direct result of a society that is oppressive. Perhaps a better sentiment to get both points across (using this article’s title as an example) is saying, “Gay… Read more »
beautifully stated. Ritch.
I found the piece to be very intriguing on some notes, but I had one major problem with his premise. I find it hard to believe the author can justify lumping all of the vastly differing experiences of LGBT youth in America together under the over-generalizing header “The Gay Kids Are Alright”. “Many gay youth are proud, enjoy life, and, by most accounts, appear to be quite ordinary adolescents and young adults.” That may be true, in some places, but I really wish the author had taken the time to acknowledge that that is emphatically *NOT* the case in many… Read more »
Very excellent major point and one I wish I had a ready answer for, but I do not. Unfortunately, the research has not done a great job of documenting regional, class, ethnic differences in treating gay youth. I would caution, however, against generalizing too much about particulars (e.g., life is worse for gay youth in rural areas or worse for African-American gay youth) because there is some limited evidence that this might not always be true. For example, some gay people feel incredible support and acceptance in small town communities because everyone knows your mother, grandmother, great-grandmother and thus this… Read more »
I have been a long-time “big brother”/mentor for a gay kid who is now 19 years old. He came out at 13 and, despite going to a progressive public high school in Marin County, CA, he was harassed all through his junior year. No, he didn’t consider committing suicide but it was a very emotionally-difficult time for him. Fortunately, he had plenty of emotional support , and indeed his life has gotten much better since he has gone off to college. BTW: The school administration did not suspend or discipline his bullies since they were the stars of the school’s… Read more »
One of our big tasks is to put pressure on schools to change these policies. Not an easy endeavor and in this we need many, many parents to help out. Ritch.
Ritch, you are right that we must make it better now…not wait for the future. Using Jason’s case, I lobbied the superintendent of the school district in Marin and they have adopted a zero-tolerance policy for bullying.
But how is your argument going to support change on the part of schools/parents/legislators/etc. when you are promoting that things are better now? You are negating the impact of these very policies in need of change by saying that gay kids are okay and unaffected by them. So schools/parents/legislators/etc. will use (actually, ARE USING right now) your words to say, “Look…here is proof that these kids are okay. There is no need for reform, or for change. Gay kids have it just as rough as straight kids.” Your “findings” are working against reform, and changing attitudes, and combating homophobia. This… Read more »
And by saying “NOT better now,” I’m not saying it’s not better than it was years ago. I’m saying that it’s not better enough to be able to claim an all-is-well mentality. As long as we are losing children–regardless of how we statistically measure the numbers–in scenarios in which societal ignorance, bigotry, and oppression are a factor, we cannot say that things are okay. Period. We are not there yet, and saying we are is damaging our ability to make it the rest of the way.
P.S. As I know you had an issue with my anonymity, I wanted to let you know that my name is Gregory Bulfaro. I stand by everything I am saying, and if my name comes up in an Internet search tied to these comments, I am okay with that now. If a prospective employer chooses not to hire me because of this, so be it. If family members see this and choose to form opinions and judgments, that’s fine as well. I shouldn’t have had to remain anonymous. But my final question to you is, as a 33 year-old man… Read more »
Thank you Intrigued for your comments. They are helpful in clarifying our points of agreement and disagreement. First, let me say that my assessment of the scientific literature (and here notable scholars disagree, as is usual), is that on many basic developmental domains there are no gay versus straight differences. Some of these domains are mental health. As a scientist, I must sort through the empirical evidence and reach what I consider to be the most accurate conclusions (and not all of us will reach the same conclusions). I also believe that a scholar should not let her/his political ideology… Read more »
Thanks for the feedback. Just a few final points: 1. You stated, “I could not ignore the evidence because it did not fit my ideology.” However, you are doing just that. From my earlier commentary, “Regarding your ideas of gay well-adjustedness/happiness, you are blatantly ignoring the findings of such entities as the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/stigma-and-discrimination.htm), the APA (http://www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/discriminatory-legislation.aspx), the SPRC ( http://www.sprc.org/library/SPRC_LGBT_Youth.pdf), and various other legitimate public agencies. You admitted during your NPR interview to “selecting” the information you use, which is information that supports YOUR views…”. And these findings represent just a small population of recent information presented by credible… Read more »
Point 1: I can say that “scientific research simply does not support the picture of gay youth in psychological peril” because this is my read of the literature (which does not say no youth is at risk but that they are not more likely than straight youth to be so). Your references to particular governmental and professional websites I could critique but are beyond the interest of most readers here I would assume. Point 2: Yes, I believe some gay youth are at great peril and I believe we should do everything possible to help them cope. I believe we… Read more »
I think a lot of the readers here have confused an observation that sounds to me like “We shouldn’t be promoting the idea that all gay youth are miserable and suicidal.” with something more like “No gay youth are miserable and suicidal.” There is a very important logical difference between the two ideas. My childhood had issues, but my bisexuality was never a cause for concern or repercussion. I was pretty happy most of the time. My gay roommate had a hellish high school experience and we both ended up in tears when we compared experiences. She is one of… Read more »
I appreciate (of course) your perspective. Let me also add that I personally know gay youth who have completed suicide. I am not naive as to the problems that they face and if It Gets Better helps (as I hope that will and that it can), then I am all for it. I believe our tent should be large enough for multiple perspective and I thank you for sharing yours. Ritch.
I want to thank Ritch Savin-Williams for introducing science to the discussion about gender, sexuality and teen suicide. If we really want to improve the mental health of youth, we must be inspired–not deterred–by evidence that defy our assumptions and our own individual experiences.
You said it beautifully! I only wish that I had provided more of the science behind my assertions–that what I was saying had a scientific basis to it. Next time, I guess I’ll know… Ritch.
I whole-heartedly agree with Benjamin Doherty on this. Ritch, after reading a multitude of angry comments, I wanted to thank you for presenting me with an alternative perspective of the issue, which highlighted some important, and often overlooked, points. I think people need to realise that a researcher’s work is never done, and that articles like yours are crucial for stimulating the debate necessary to ensure adequate coverage of all angles of an issue.
I think that your intentions and your work in the area are honourable.
Thank you for this encouragement. At first I was extremely taken aback, got a bit defensive, but then realized that many people feel very passionate about this issue and for that I had to tell myself that this is good (though it might have not felt great).
As long as we are trying to change the system so that all kids regardless of their sexuality and gender expression can lead good, healthy lives, then I have no complaints and only gratitude.
Ritch.
Very disappointed by this article. I wrote a news story a while back about a few hundred people who gathered in my area to hold a vigil for the teens who committed suicide. It was predominantly gay people who attended. As I interviewed them, they all spoke of facing bigotry, bullying and contempt for years on end. A few of them attempted suicide unsuccessfully. And while all of their stories were different, the one constant was they were gay and they were tormented. To say the “It Gets Better” campaign promotes a “cynical, hopeless, and inaccurate message” is just ridiculous.… Read more »
Dear Daddy Files,
You had better re-read my post: I NEVER said that the It Gets Better promotes “cynical….” You have clearly misquoted me. Why? There are others who have bashed this campaign head-on, but it is not me. I see much good in it; I just want another message to go out there as well.
I have never dismissed the recent gay suicides as anything but tragic. My goal is to prevent further such horrible acts. I believe we disagree on how best to do this. Is this so wrong?
Ritch.
“The recent tragic deaths of several teens who were gay, or were believed to be gay, have received national attention and reminded us of the unrelenting pain and desperation that we believe characterize the lives of gay youth. But this portrait is an overgeneralization that communicates a cynical, hopeless, and inaccurate message that to be young and gay is to suffer.”
That’s what you wrote. The “It Gets Better” campaign certainly paints a portrait of gay teenagers suffering. And you clearly state that portrait is overgeneralized and not backed up by science. So what am I missing??
Your wrote, “To say the “It Gets Better” campaign promotes a “cynical, hopeless, and inaccurate message” is just ridiculous. And incorrect.” What you’re missing is that I never said that the campaign promotes this perspective. I do understand, however, that you inferred that I said this, but please do not say that I am blaming the campaign. Again, I see some good in what the campaign is doing; it is not, however, my ideal. By the way, there are now some in the gay community who have spoken out quite strongly against the message of the campaign and see it… Read more »
Thanks for providing red meat for the RRRW who will now run around using this piece of garbage as an excuse to keep on doing what they’ve always been doing. LGBT youth will keep suffering and dying thanks to your wanton negligence.
And thanks for your middle school bullying directed at someone you do not know. You obviously have the right to respond but this post feels like what our gay teens receive. Was this your intent? Perhaps there was a different way to express your disagreements?
Ritch.
I try to hope that the ‘It Gets Better’ project helps some gay youth. I really do. But, to be honest, it doesn’t get all that better in so many ways. I’m 42 and I graduated in 1986, and I do think that things have gotten better some. But the bad word for us is still in the language, and it’s still used. So, no progress there. Shoot, even the word ‘gay’ has taken on a non-sexual-orientation connotation meaning just ‘shitty’. That’s not progress — that’s worse than before. Now you’ve got all these gay guys trying to become straight… Read more »
I think most of the negative reactions in the comments here must be coming from people who don’t know much about psychological research, or perhaps didn’t read the article very closely for those accusing the author of being homophobic. It’s obvious that the author is just taking a different perspective, and basing his argument on the extant studies as any good researcher should do. That said, I might be biased toward this idea because I’m a young gay man who didn’t experience much bullying in high school (though I did in middle school, when I first came out). It’s just… Read more »
I appreciate your perspective, John, and your questions. I can understand your skepticism regarding suicide contagion. The research supporting this view is sparse, to say the least. However, I have talked with many clinicians and other help-care professionals who tackle suicide issues and I have never encountered anyone who doubted this effect. So, yes, scientifically not proven (as far as I know) but for the people in the field, a very deep concern. Usually this is focused on particular contexts (such as a high school or community) but it also seems to apply to others. Indeed, some professionals have expressed… Read more »
Ritch C. Savin-Williams, I think people have given you a raw deal. Don’t get me wrong, I think you’ve got some serious flaws in your reasoning, but considering this is a blog post and not a peer reviewed article, I think you should be cut a lot of slack. And you provide a very valuable as well, even if I think you misidentify the real meaning of these studies. All the studies you’ve cited considered only people who knew they were gay. It did not include the people in denial, and those people would be far more likely to experience… Read more »
Very important points Josh that are well-worth discussing. First, you may be correct that the gay youth who are not out may be more depressed/suicidal than those who are out–or, given the perspective of the “bullying” literature, they may not be because by not being out they may be protecting themselves from the harassment of peers. The bullying folks can’t have it both ways: suicidal if you come out and suicidal if you don’t. There is very little evidence to support either perspective. Nevertheless, you have pointed out a real problem for all of us researchers: the gay youth who… Read more »
An attempt to generalize the experiences of any group in the US seems moot to me, as regional variations in culture are going to make findings for “the general populace” unpalatable to many readers who have more extreme experiences. For this particular issue, I would go so far as to say that even the presence of pocket communities of religious extremists in otherwise urbanized/liberal areas creates a very meaningful difference in individual experience. From a psychological perspective, I think it’s important for there to be positive messages out there for LGBT youth, adults, and elders, but I feel the methodology… Read more »
I wish we knew more about these regional, class, and sub-culture differences but they are often complicated by “unexpected” findings. For example, there was one report that ethnic-minority gay youth fared better in mental health than white youth and the explanation given was that they had an African-American family that supported them when they came home after a school day of harassment.
Post-hoc, I now see that the “methodology” of my presentation interfered with my message, at least for some readers. I’ll work on it…
Another factor regarding African-American resilience is that, from what I recall, they have a very well defined sense of cultural identity. With such a strong sense of identity to back up what is, for some youth, a very shaky aspect of their lives, I can definitely see how they arrived at those findings.
I look forward to reading more!
Did the family know that their son was being bullied for being gay and that their son was, in fact, gay? I’m telling you, it’s getting to be a bit much. My closest friend is a black woman. Her uncle’s son is gay. Her uncle refuses to speak with him. Her father will speak to him, but says that he wouldn’t if his own son were gay. This is the reality in black families. The black community is disgustingly homophobic. You need to get out more.
Who the hell is this hack of a “psychologist”?? “The truth is, “It’s Better, Right Now!”” What? Tell that to a kid in Utah, Idaho, Nebreska, etc. who is growing up surrounded by neo-theological conservatives who view them as a sin against god. Or if not even intolerance from a religous group the ignorance that pervades the school systems in this country that leads to bullying and prejudice, very REAL prejudice, that continues to exist against homosexuals pretty much everywhere and in particular outside of the major cities. I pity this Dr. and his patients. What a baffoon.
Actually, I am more of a researcher than a practicing psychologist.
I’ve never denied that ALL gay kids are doing all right.
BTW, there are people who live in the areas you mention who say that living there is great for gay kids. I don’t think they deserve a bum rap.
Not sure why you feel it necessary to resort to name-calling. It is possible to disagree and to have a conversation without resorting to middle school bullying.
Most assuredly you have my apologies for name calling and for my passions getting the best of me. Quite right in that it definitely does not foster a environment of fruitful debate. Apologies then yet again.
I do appreciate you writing this. It is good that this is a passionate issue and that perhaps we can change current conditions for this and future generations.
Ritch.
“LIving there is great for gay kids. ” You’re losing me. I don’t think that living anywhere is great for gays period. We are the most oppressed minority around. Too few straights are actually fully ‘ok’ with us and that gets put into action at times. I mean, and I don’t want to make the case so much with specific examples, but I just would like to explain that in NC, despite the Supreme Court ruling in Bowers (?), the law in NC states that sodomy is illegal. You can, technically, be put in jail. The Charlotte police department arrested… Read more »
One of my best friends grew up gay (and expressive) in Utah and he had a pretty happy childhood. It completely depends on your social circles… you really can’t lump entire states into one social environment.
Wow, that was a good article. Maybe a little insensitive, but no more so than say, a south park episode. You comment robots need to learn how to read. He isn’t saying that gay kids aren’t suicidal, he is saying that it isn’t as bad as people are starting to believe. He then goes on to say how it became “common knowledge” that gay youth were suicidal. He follows these thoughts with some interesting data on why people reporting on these things can get it wrong. I think its VERY important to pass the message that gay kids are all… Read more »
On the contrary I would say titling this as “Gay Kids Are All Right” is very misleading. We are not there yet in society where sentiments in this article are reality or where we can even suggest that “Gay Kids are All Right”. When these kids have kids of their own then I would agree with you here but again we aren’t there yet. I agree that the positive message is there and should be applauded but it shouldn’t ignore the obvious that gay kids are NOT All Right and that many changes need to be made. I would add… Read more »
We agree that considerable work needs to be made to our society but I also want to be clear that this current generation is so far ahead of previous generations in acceptance of sexual and gender diversity. If they could vote we would have gay marriage, gays in the military, gay adoption, etc. Overwhelmingly they believe that it is simply wrong to attack someone because of their sexual orientation. Yes, this makes for a better world for today’s gay teens but these kids must still live in a larger societal context and that is what you accurately describe as not… Read more »
To some extent, but not a great one and in a mixed sense, I would agree. When you write a phrase like ‘the current generation’ I think you’re throwing too many people into the same group. Look , you live in a certain part of the country. I live in Charlotte, NC, and I can tell you that it is just NOT the case that if there was a vote today in NC that the youth would vote in the way you describe. Blacks youth are absolutely not any different than their children, and I really don’t think that Mexican-American… Read more »
These are national statistics and not separated by region. It is very likely that there are regions of the country that are better and worse for gay youth. My objection is to say that rural, south, midwest, or whatever are necessarily bad environments for gay kids. Sometimes urban areas are not great. The important point is to try to enhance all locales, which means our work continues.
It would make an interesting longitudinal study to see if this supposed increased acceptance of homosexuality among straight youth is consistent over time. Do you think this is a cohort effect? Social progress that will snowball? Or do you think that perhaps developmental factors or methodological issues might be contributing to this impression that straight youth are extremely pro-gay marriage, etc. in a way that wouldn’t be borne out in the long term?
Many of the national polling organizations ask the same questions over time (e.g., is homosexuality acceptable?) and it is clear that with every generation, the attitudes are more positive. These do not, however, as you recommend follow the same people over time. For example, if someone is progressive toward gay issues, does remain so as she/he ages and is more out in the world? Although there might be some retrenchment over time, I do believe that the progressive attitudes are likely maintained–an important study to assess. An additional observation that others have made is that even the Religious Right has… Read more »
Of course there is plenty of scientific research done to show that this is NOT a great time to be gay. The fact that Dr. Savin-Williams choses not to look at it does not make it disappear. This is a perfect example of how the fact that someone has a degree does not make him/her unbiased or pursuing a specific goal. Who is funding and/or supporting Dr. Savin-Williams?
And I assume that you would say that the “pro” gay youth suicidal side is also “biased” and pursuing a specific political goal? Such research has considerable government funding. I have none and never have; I am not selling books; I’m not getting paid for interviews; I am not fond of this kind of publicity. My motive: is to give voice to another perspective. Is that so hard to believe? And, I have read everything there is about gay youth suicide, all sides.
I want to thank (most) of you for writing. Clearly, this is a very emotional issue for many of us. Several general points I want to make (if you will allow me): First, I never meant to attack the It Gets Better Campaign but to give voice to a second message that gives hope to gay kids and those who feel that they might be gay. I believe we can tolerate both messages. Second, I acknowledge that life can be exceptionally difficult for some youth and i will continue to go to court and to work in various communities to… Read more »
Don’t listen to the haters, these people aren’t even reading your work. You have been very clear that you are providing interesting information about a “crisis” and that you are easily a supporter of reason and an ally to gay causes.
Did you really just say gayness?
Ok, not real scientific but I really did not want to use the usual biologic equivalent: “homosexuality.”
Why not?
The respect I had for the Good Men Project as a publication with a worth agenda is diminished by their continued association with the author. Goodness I hope he goes away before he does any real harm to the vulnerable youth he’s trying to capitalize on.
Sorry that you are not open to multiple perspectives. From my vantage point, I am trying to give hope to vulnerable youth that they can have a good life. Seems like a worthwhile goal to me. I would encourage you to do the same in whatever way you can.
“I am trying to give hope to vulnerable youth that they can have a good life.”
Yeah, that’s called the “It Gets Better” project. 😐
the difference for me is the present versus the future; my hope is that both messages can be delivered. And you?
Hope is a very worthwhile goal. A genuine improvement in one’s personal circumstances is even better. Ideally, it is the difference between the beginning of our work with clients and the end of our work with clients. It’s also the purview of social justice. Do you see where the push-back is coming from?
Okay, who really wrote this? The Family Research Council? This sounds like pure bull to me.
don’t worry; they too hate me with a passion!
‘The Velvet Rage’ by Alan Downs provides some excellent insights into just how hard it really is to be a young gay man. I unfortunately can’t think of an even remotely civil comment to offer in regards to this post.
http://www.amazon.com/Velvet-Rage-Overcoming-Growing-Straight/dp/0738210110