Men are trying to get more time with their children. So why aren’t they taking parental leave?
Tom Matlack’s post, Why Being a Good Man is Not a Feminist Issue, has garnered hundreds of comments covering all sides of the debate. But in one small corner of the comments, a very specific conversation about parental leave in the workplace was started. When it comes to equality, it’s a no-brainer that pay for equal men and women should be equal for equal work. But what about men who work longer hours? What about men who want more time with their children? If men are offered parental leave but don’t take it, does the task of taking time off for kids fall onto the mothers? And should they get paid for working less?
These are the questions we like to dive deep into on The Good Men Project. Below is one small slice of the conversation. We would love more people to continue the conversation in the comments. Thank you.
Kacey: “It’s often the case that women can’t work longer hours because they have to take care of their children — 84% of custodial parents are women. I have had personal experience with pay disparity as well.”
Mark Neil: “Why are feminist groups opposed to fathers rights groups and equal parenting? You can not blame patriarchy for the actions of feminist groups such as NOW and the women’s bar association. Men are actually trying to get more time with their children, I hardly think it’s fair to pretend that women are being burdened by an activity they refuse to give up. And if that is impacting their incomes, then it can not be deemed a result of discrimination, unless you are willing to acknowledge it is a result of discrimination against men.”
Lisa Hickey: “Mark, this is a REALLY important point, and one that we need to explore in much greater detail on this site. We advocate a great deal for men spending more time with their kids, having a work/life balance, not being viewed as the “provider”, being seen as someone for whom parenting is just as inherently natural it is for women. I haven’t seen a man here who doesn’t wish they could spend more time with their children.
If I were the lobbying kind of feminist, I’d be spending all my time lobbying for equal parenting and father’s rights *precisely* because that’s the only way we are going to make up any last bit of disparity in pay between men and women, or solve the problem of women not being in top jobs. It seems so obvious to me, I just don’t get why other people don’t see that.”
Karen L. O’Connor: “I am a lawyer, and I practice labor and employment law. My practice consists of litigating lawsuits against employers (management side) that involve harassment, discrimination, etc. I also advise clients on leave law issues, and teach HR professionals about leave laws. In my 15 years of practicing in this area, I can safely report (based on my personal experience, which granted is limited to the Pacific Northwest and a very small set of the population), that, frankly, men don’t often take leave to care for their children. It drives me CRAZY. Women take it, all the time – certainly for births, but also for other family related issues. Men, oh, they’ll take a week, or a month at most. They so incredibly rarely take the leave – and the fact of the matter is that it will never truly be accepted or “normal” in the workplace unless and until they do. We will never solve the pay disparity until it is just as likely that a woman will take time off to care for her family as a man would…which seems so far away.
And, let’s add something to that: women will expect/demand/lobby for flexibility from their employers (or policy changes) to deal with their family needs – but they do NOT ask or expect that level of assistance from their husbands. Why is that? Why do women seem to think that it’s okay to ask their employers for a “favor,” or to suggest that the workplace needs to be more flexible (and, full disclosure, I do believe the workplace needs to be more flexible in so many ways!) but they won’t ask (nor, sadly, do their husbands offer) their husbands/ partners to leave work early to drive the lacrosse carpool or get the kid to piano lessons? Unless and until women do so, men won’t “need” to press the issue at work, so they don’t, and we continue to see what I believe are FAMILY issues – work/life balance issues that affect FAMILIES not women or men – characterized as women’s issues, and thus too easily marginalized.
I am troubled that the statistics are so depressing – the number of men who use family leave (which I believe is a reflection of how many men do advocate and work for work/life balance, and involved/engaged father/parenthood) is pathetically low. They simply don’t do it – even when they are at a socio-economic level such that economics can’t explain it. I have sat at so many dinner tables and listened to my friends announce that, well, “Bob can’t really take time away from the office.” Really? Why is that? Why are men’s jobs more important than women’s? Why is it that I can step away for 3 months and come back and it’s no big deal, but men seem to think their worlds will crumble if they surrender the iPhone for 12 weeks?
The men who visit/read GMP are, unfortunately, such a small part of the population – how do we convince more men to advocate for work/life balance, and actually use what is available to them? How do we convince women that, in fact, they are well within bounds to expect that their husbands will pick up the kids or come to a school conference or otherwise be engaged as active dads – like the men who read GMP?
I participated in a radio program this week for our local NPR affiliate, and was saddened to hear the youngest panelist announce that no, she didn’t think things really were changing….I so desperately do NOT want to agree with her, but my oh-so-involved husband (who is one of the few men who did take family leave, works from home, coaches the soccer team, drives to piano lessons – you get the picture) seems to be a precious rarity.”
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Please add your own voice to this conversation below.
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photo by basheertome / flickr
Men don’t do things if they don’t have to. Sacrifice isn’t big in the male spectrum from my experience. Sure they do things, if they’re asked or forced to. A man who first born son, on the day of his birth, his first day as an independant human on this earth, left to go hunting. His reason?? “Hunting on Thanksgiving only gets to happen once a year.” (apparantley he thinks being there on the first day of his first born’s life happens all the time) He went hunting the day his daughter was born also. This is what a man… Read more »
“Men don’t do things if they don’t have to. Sacrifice isn’t big in the male spectrum from my experience. Sure they do things, if they’re asked or forced to.” Be sure to tell that to the next firefighter or police officer who comes to your rescue. To the millions of men who died for their country and their loved ones in the great wars. Be sure to tell that to your father and grandfathers.Be sure to tell that to the 95% workplace dead who died doing dangerous jobs that had to get done, so they could provide for their families… Read more »
Firstly, just a request to keep the conversation civil. Telling someone they’re being “callous and bigoted” isn’t likely to generate constructive conversation. Secondly, just want to point out this bit “Men have always put honour, duty and women before themselves,” is only really part of the picture. There have been people, men and women, throughout history who have put others before themselves. They should be celebrated. That isn’t gendered, though. That being said, claiming that “mend don’t do things if they don’t have to,” is a very negative sweeping generalization Lil Bit. And so totally inaccurate. Being selfish and lazy… Read more »
I suppose countering a generalization with a generalization wasn’t really the best tactic, was it? LOL
Basically. Difficult not to do, though.
Three things – you ignore relationship dynamics here. Men don’t want to risk any hit to their income because we know that women judge us by our income relative to their own. As such, we cannot risk losing any income after we’ve started a family (this greatly increases the odds a woman will file for divorce), nor can we actually risk true pay equality (because if the average woman makes as much as the average man, the average women will refuse to date/mate with the average man). Women have made their bed on that one; they want to cling to… Read more »
One of the people quoted, Karen O’Connor, states that her husband “works from home.” I have met and read about many women with stay-at-home husbands, and almost to a woman they refer to their husbands as “working from home,” “small business owners,” or “pursuing [making furniture/writing an album/finishing that novel].” On the other hand, I have heard (and read) about men whose wives I know do many things other than just act as a primary caretaker for the kids, yet those men (and their wives) describe what the wife is doing as “stay at home mom.” The 5-10 hours a… Read more »
Reese, to be clear, my husband works for a fortune 500 company, full-time – he just does so mostly from home due to the nature of his work. Because he is fully employed (yes, 40+ hours/week), but does so mostly from home, I don’t refer to him as a SAHD, because he also has a full-time job which must get done, and because neither childcare nor our household maintenance is his primary responsibility – we share those. And no, he’s not a writer, or working on an album, or a small business owner – he’s a manager at a large… Read more »
“Why is it that I can step away for 3 months and come back and it’s no big deal, but men seem to think their worlds will crumble if they surrender the iPhone for 12 weeks?” I’m curious how many companies actually pay out 100% salary and benefits during paternity leave, do you know? It is my understanding that in Canada, you can take parental leave at 55% of your salary (might even be up to a maximum per week). Some companies pay the difference for maternity leave, some also pay the difference for paternity leave, but it’s not mandatory.… Read more »
Under Title VII (federal anti-discrimination law), a company cannot pay a mother during her parental leave unless the company offers the same benefit to their male employees. Either the Company needs to offer paid leave to BOTH sexes, or it risks violating the law. Usually, if women are paid during a parental leave, it is through a short-term disability policy (which is not usually a full payment, either, but partial payment, and capped out at a relatively low level). In addition, most companies will let you use accrued sick and vacation time during your leave, so both men and women… Read more »
“Under Title VII (federal anti-discrimination law),” Same laws would suggest it’s illegal to discriminate against men with woman only hotel floors, woman only domestic abuse services, VAWA clauses stating programs and shelters for women only is ok but programs and shelters for men must also serve women. Our own governments don’t always follow the anti-discrimination laws. I’ll ignore the insistence on the gender wage gap being a result of discrimination despite these laws. “which is not usually a full payment, either, but partial payment, and capped out at a relatively low level” Exactly. Why cut two paychecks in half (or… Read more »
I am currently in the Army and I can say that we are given 10 days of “free” leave when our legally married spouse gives birth to our child. (“Free leave” being leave which is not subtracted from the 30 days we earn each year (2.5 days a month)). Neither our pay nor benefits are impacted on this leave. Many new and new-again fathers I have known take this leave to be with their growing families while their peers fill in the vacancy until he returns. Even as my unit is deployed, those who had children plan to take this… Read more »
This is a great example, thank you.