5 Unrealistic Sex Moves Men Learn from Watching Porn

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Lori Lothian believes porn has the potential to mislead men about the best bedroom moves to use with real-life women.

I had a discussion the other day with a female sex educator about porn. The gist of our talk was about how porn has the potential to badly mislead men about the best bedroom moves, the ones real women appreciate, versus the stereotypes porn directors and actors have woven into the collective sexual imagination.

Of course, in an ideal intimate union, you men are simply asking your partner what she likes (because each woman is as unique as her pussy). But because transparency and candor is often as scary in new relationships as farting during sex, let’s just take a stab at some general “women don’t really like this” pointers.

Here are five techniques porn teaches men that are not necessarily what many women will rave to their girlfriends about after he tries them on her:

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1)  Ejaculating on her face is a huge turn on. Though it might be a good facial moisturizer, unlike porn actresses, a real woman isn’t likely to smile adoringly as her man hoses semen into her eyes and nose. In fact, it’s a bitch to get out of her hair without having to shampoo and for the most part that semen facial has nothing to do with her pleasure. Some theorize it’s a humiliation/domination of women archetype, though gender studies professor Hugo Schwyzer speculates in an article called “He Wants to Jizz on Your Face but Not Why You’d Think” that “rather than seeing the facial as rooted in the impulse to denigrate, it might indeed be better to view it as longing for approval.” In other words, she loves and accepts you enough to make her face your canvas for a Jackson Pollock style splatter art. But my advice? Unless you’ve talked about how this might be a turn on for her, skip the semen facial.

2) Cunnilingus should be a short-lived but rough tongue-lashing. I can’t count the women friends who have cringed along with me at some porn scene where the guy is mouth-handling our very sensitive parts like they are made of shoe leather. Close-ups of the vacuum suction technique—where her clit is Hoovered into his mouth—or the move where the porn star all but crushes his face into her vulva and starts wagging his head back and forth make me think one thing: ouch. Sure, I guess if a woman is so turned on that she is ready for rough touch, great. But take a look next time at the porn star female who is trying not to wince while cooing in supposed pleasure. So instead of bludgeoning us with your tongue, start feather gentle and build up. Your woman’s breathing and sounds of pleasure (which happen well beyond the thirty second mark) will guide you.

3) Having a cock slap her face is orgasmic.  To this I can also add, and so is deep fucking her mouth until she gags. Point is, most porn has at least one scene where the women looks up lovingly while the man batters her face with his dick, or plunges so deeply into her mouth she is about to throw up (I’d like to know how many times the camera cuts after a porn actress vomits all over his dick). The film Deep Throat set a new standard for esophageal sex, but most women haven’t taken the course where they learn to hold their breath and dampen their gag reflex just so the guy can bury his member to the hilt in her oral cavity. Real women want to please you and will try their best to accommodate your length in giving a blowjob. The trick here is to remember to let her lead on the depth issue. And as for whacking her cheeks with Mr. Winky, ask first.

4) Women wear high heels to bed for pleasure. An alien studying human mating habits based on porn would surmise a naked woman wearing only high-heeled shoes is a part of some sex ritual or custom. But in real life, most of us women don’t like walking in the damn things, let alone wearing them to bed. And there are so many great standing positions we enjoy better when we are not teetering three to five inches above the ground, worried about twisting our ankle. Bottom line: the heels are just a movie prop (and for some people, a fetish). Why not learn to love (and kiss) our sexy bare feet?

5) A woman wants to lick the dick that has just been in her ass.  I am not sure this needs much explanation other than, yuck. While some women find pleasure in anal sex (there are lovely nerve endings in the anal sphincter) no woman I know gets excited about the anal to oral switcheroo prevalent in porn. If you try that move, be willing to kiss her right after to show you are an equal opportunity connoisseur of fecal flavor. But why not just skip this unsanitary move all together?

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While there are certainly at least another dozen sex moves from porn that don’t translate to mutual pleasure at home, these five topped my list. I invite my male readers to step up and also share with us women the moves in porn that don’t really work in your real life. After all, do most guys really enjoy sharing their partner with one or more studs?

The porn industry is an erotic visual fiction and perhaps, a narrative that takes the collective sexual shadow and brings it to the screen. But what porn is certainly not, and never will be, is reliable sex education. And anyway, the best sex-ed happens in the communication between you and your partner.

 

 

Photo: Flickr/rachelkramerbussel.com

 

About Lori Ann Lothian

Lori Ann Lothian is a sexy daring writer who challenges assumptions about love, sex and relationships in her columns at Huffington Post and elephant Journal and in feature articles at the Good Men Project, Origin Magazine, Yoganonymous, Better After 50 and more. Former editor of the relationship section of elephant Journal, she is now a senior editor at the Good Men Project. Follow her on Twitter andGoogle. Stay informed, sign up for Lori’s mailing list here.

Comments

  1. Another deceiving part of porn to men is the size of the penis’s that the actors have. I think that watching porn with men with huge members make real men feel small. I do question the actual size of these men . I also question the size of the women….are they small women small in size to make the men look larger than they actually are? Therefore kinda making sex after watching porn a turn off.

    • Lori Lothian says:

      Well, as a woman, the fake huge breasts that barely move during sex is also another turn off. But I don’t expect men in my life to have the huge cocks of porn stars any more than I expect my own breasts to look like that without implants. Porn is a fantasy world but interestingly, it also bleeds through to real life when men and/or women compare or even copy cat their own erotic encounters on what they have seen on screen.

      • I rarely see fake breasts in porn, and most penis sizes are average. I guess that’s because I choose the porn I watch instead of relying on gross generalizations of porn. The porn I watch is of real couples having real sex, it’s sex that I’ve had, and quite frankly I’d find it boring if a partner didn’t at least try to have sex in that way regardless of porn. Penis in vagina, oral sex (both of us), that’s it…shocking stuff I know.

        Reading these comments I am wondering if I am rare in my ability to see pornstars as human though? Because some of the attitudes I’m reading from the women especially on porn make me question how they view other humans bigtime.

  2. Hi Lori,

    Well I feel like addressing this and say that in my view the issue don’t really come from porn. It comes from men having no clue of what can be sharing good, harmonious and nonetheless intoxicating sex with a woman.
    But let me first disagree with this: “in an ideal intimate union, you men are simply asking your partner what she likes”
    Really, asking what she likes? Very bad move in my opinion, unless you want to make her feel like she’s at the grocery store or at the restaurant. Like: “Here is the menu out of my skills’ range, what will you have lady?” The sex moves that a woman likes a real lover discover it, and even more he’ll make discover it beyond her own knowledge of herself. I had a lover who said she was best pleasured with clit or so she believed (I didn’t asked she just told it), I could have stick to her words, right? But I didn’t. I just went and checked what happen, if I would explore her learnedly with my long pianist’s kinda fingers, twice the length of hers. Result: A fire work of pleasure! So for me that’s what a lover does: He doesn’t ask, he doesn’t put you on the spot to voice your intimate desires, he goes ahead from them, and possibly makes you discover new ones.
    About porns? I really never could get what men can find exciting in film makers porns? At 95% they always were a complete turn off for me. Bottom line is you believe to nothing in these movies with fake people and fake situations, like a man supposed to be the boss of some big company when you see that he obviously don’t have more than 3 neurones available! Even the bodies are so unreal and instead of making you fantasise on what state of mind brought the lovers there, the director give you a plain and full gynaecologist documentary. Yuk!
    In short no risk for me to follow up after these moronic and boring kind of porn movies, I never look at them! The only good porn I know is the one people do for their own private pleasure. They live a real good sex moment, including emotion, erotic tension and real pleasure while just letting the camera on. Real is back and eroticism kicks back in as well!

    • This comment is so full of the idea that women don’t know what they want…so a man should come in and teach them about themselves. It’s so problematic, and not just in terms of sexual relationships.

      • Well, it just makes me wonder if you read my comment backward, in the sense of diagonal or whatever?
        Is the idea that it’s better to guess what a woman wants and give it to her, rather than making her voice it, implies that “she doesn’t know what she wants”?
        Now about “teaching people about themselves”, I’m even more baffled that you should see anything “problematic” in that. No man ever taught you anything about yourself? How sad! Each lover I had taught me something about myself, same as I hope I did for them. That’s what real lovers do, they tell you who you are! Even sexually, they bring out of you things that were dormant and needed someone in particular to make it alive.
        It’s exactly what says The Logical Song (Supertramp), which I leave here for further reflection:

        “There are times when all the world’s asleep
        The questions run too deep for such a simple man
        Won’t you please, please tell me what we’ve learned
        I know it sounds absurd but please tell me who I am”

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcX1qA1Etc8

      • Mike L says:

        HeatherN,

        I know you didn’t mean it this way, but your comment actively denies the experience of many hetero men.

        The fact of the matter is that we live in a society where the sexuality of women is often shamed into the shadows. Speaking as a hetero man, it’s not unusual to have a woman say to you “I don’t really know what I want,” when you become intimate. Usually the onus is then put on you to somehow come up with something that will magically “do the trick” for her.

        I can remember one particularly frustrating night when I was with a woman who was having trouble “getting there” and when I asked if maybe I should be touching her somewhere else, she admitted that she had never pleasured herself before, had faked it with her other lovers, and she had no idea if I should be doing something else or not. This was made all the more stressful because she topped it off with a comment along the lines of “I thought you would be different, but I guess you’re not any more skilled than the other guys…”

        So, the experience of “The woman I’m with doesn’t know what she wants, and she expects me to teach her what she wants,” is VERY real, it happens to MANY hetero men. Please consider this in the future.

        • There is also a fear that if you tell a guy explicitly what you want, he’ll think you must be very slutty to have so much experience with sex. Or, he’ll feel emasculated. Those are 2 concerns I’ve had sometimes when guys ask “what should I do?”

          • Mike L says:

            Sarah,

            It’s really unfortunate that you have to deal with those sorts of fears. Ideally, we can get society to a place where you wouldn’t have to, but it’s clearly a slow-going process.

            I completely understand the first concern, about “too much experience,” but I’m curious about the second. It seems like if he’s already at the point of asking “What should I do?” that he’s probably beyond concerns about emasculation. But, I’m also not a woman so I don’t have a good picture of how men respond to answers to that question.

        • “So, the experience of “The woman I’m with doesn’t know what she wants, and she expects me to teach her what she wants,” is VERY real, it happens to MANY hetero men.”

          This

          This!!!!!!

          Read this women of GMP!!!!

          • I am going to try to tackle this as best I can. There is really no place women can go to learn about their own body or what will bring them pleasure. A lot of the information is largely centered around what brings men pleasure sexually. So a lot of women have no clue what to do and so they mimic what they see because they believe that if they aren’t this embodiment of female sexuality that is overtly displayed in the media, they are doing something wrong. Hence one reason why women “fake it”. They feel like they are the one that’s the outcast or doing something wrong. Because we see all these images of overtly sexual super gorgeous women that can orgasm from the most crazy acts that normal women largely won’t orgasm from. So we pretend we can. Because we don’t want to disappoint our partners. And it works because our partners puff out their chests and feel proud of their “accomplishment”. Which is what we know he really wants so we deny ourselves something in favor of his needs. Which is largely what women are told to do from birth.

            Is that a good thing? No. Should women work on this? Yes. I’ve had to spend a lifetime doing it. But that’s part of what happens. It’s what I did when I was younger and wanted to live up to a man’s expectations of me sexually. I did things that I didn’t really enjoy doing because he enjoyed them. I pretended they were so fun and great when they really weren’t to me. I watched porn when I was younger because I knew men loved it and I wanted to be something a man could love. So as a younger woman, I was more eager to forgo what I needed based on trying to live up to his expectations.

            It took a long time for me to realize this. I had to mature more and grow up and figure out better what *I* liked and work on telling the men I was with that I liked this or didn’t like that. It was not easy. It’s still not easy. Women largely want to be their man’s fantasy. (Just like men want to be their woman’s big strong man that is capable of making her happy.) And that is sometimes impossible for a woman to feel like she can achieve when men have so many images of women basically being living sex dolls just for them. So a lot of women try to be what men want instead of being who they are. And men inadvertently encourage women being more the fantasy then the real woman they are because the fantasy is way more exciting sometimes than who the real woman may be. I don’t think men do that on purpose but they do, do it. I got way more compliments when I was trying to be a man’s fantasy rather than when I was just trying to be myself. SO a lot of women get the idea in their head that faking it is better because it doesn’t always seem like men want something that’s real when it comes to women and sex. We are continually told how much better the fantasy is to men then the reality of what men are stuck with, with real old boring women that age and have imperfections and don’t want a penis slapped on their face or to be gagged.

            • I find a lot of your response very frustrating because it’s filled with unwarranted assumptions about the way men actually think.

              You say things like:
              ” Because we don’t want to disappoint our partners. And it works because our partners puff out their chests and feel proud of their “accomplishment”. Which is what we know he really wants so we deny ourselves something in favor of his needs. ”

              Yet we have men RIGHT HERE telling you that men don’t want these things. And you don’t seem to care. Somehow you want to tell men that they are wrong about what they actually want. That’s incredibly insulting.

              It’s like you’re not really interested in listening to men and instead just interested in telling men “how the world is” without a thought to your own inherent biases.

            • Mike, I am not trying to frustrate you. I understand that there are men who don’t want what I described. I talk from a point of my experiences and what I’ve seen in my personal relationships with men. I actually find it frustrating myself that you want to deny my experiences just because *you* are not like that.

              To some degree in my relationships, there has been somewhat a focus on porn. They either wanted me to watch it with them. Usually the videos largely focued on the woman’s looks and body. Or they wanted me to dress up like something from a porn movie they suggested. Or they just did things that were not really natural in normal sex and were more scripted from porn. I have had more men defend porn to me in my personal life then try to understand how much this stuff can hurt for a woman. I could never win with my partners. Porn, and thus the women in porn, always won over me. Porn was worthy of being defended, I was not. Porn was worthy of giving compliments to, I was not.

              I dated regular guys. Not bad guys at all. They were applience sales men to stock brokers. They weren’t abusive to me or cruel. They just weren’t perfect either. But when it came to sex, it was not like we could experience sex without the influence of pornography. The more I projected the images of the fantasy, the more praise I got. The more I just wanted to be regular little ole me, the less compliments I received. When I was younger, I was desperate for male validation and while it was unhealthy to the degree I was willing to go for it, it is a common trap that a lot of women (especially younger ones) fall into.

              I don’t say these things to frustrate you. I understand that *you* have different view point. But that shouldn’t deny my experiences.

              Now that I am older, I am much better at weeding men out that are not good for me. I try to date men that do not look at porn. It’s not easy, but there are men out there that love sex and don’t love porn. I take responsibility for the role I played in my earlier relationships. Don’t mistake me by believing I don’t recognize how my behavior led to the out come. But I also have experienced alot of common behavior from men regarding pornoraphy. And talking to my girlfriends, their experiences aren’t always far off. Some of the women begrudingly accept their partners porn use, some of them just want to pretend he doesn’t look, I know of two women that don’t mind porn. But a large number of the owmen I talk to face conflicting issues when it comes to pornography and the trap that we feel boxed into by the projection of women in this media that men seem to adore like no other.

            • Exactly. Erin, I am truly beginning to think half the stuff that bothers you about porn is your interpretation of what you think most men think, which then goes on to hurt you, whilst plenty of guys are telling you otherwise on here. Why the hell won’t you listen to us more, the porn consumers, the guys that date.

              “Which is what we know he really wants ”
              No, women do not KNOW better than he knows. Everytime I’ve heard a woman say “what he really wants” it’s been completely fucking wrong. It’s as dumb as me asserting women really want men’s money because they lack the ability to truly love men for men and not for objects that do something for them. (purposely making shit up for the sake of argument).

              Also try “feminist” porn or “porn for women” to find out what you like, it may cater to what you are seem to be talking about for women discovering their bodies otherwise you may have trouble finding female-specific in a sea of alllll kinds of categories n what not. The trouble with so much content is that it can be hard to find the content you desire without a good categorization system or knowing which sites cater to which kink n what not.

            • HI Mike L, it’s not a matter of not listening to *men*, I just don’t really agree with you even though you are a man. You above tell me that there is no “thought in my inherenet biases”. You don’t value what I have to say. Why would I value what you have to say? Espeically with someone who believes I have no thought.

              Archy, you and Mike L are not the only men in the world. How do you know I don’t listen to men? I might not agree with you but that doesn’t mean I don’t listen to men.

            • Mike L says:

              Erin,

              You literally are misquoting me and distorting what I said. At no point did I say “you have no thought.” This is a gross misrepresentation that makes me question your intentions here.

              My point is that you have your experiences, and it’s good that you share them. But when you generalize to all men, this is a problem. A lot of what you have written here is in the form of a generalization to all men, and in that sense it’s just wrong.

              You wrote above:
              “Just like men want to be their woman’s big strong man that is capable of making her happy”

              You have no way of knowing what “men” think, and therefore this is a gross (and frankly offensive) generalization. There are men here telling you this statement is wrong.

              Now, if you wrote:
              “I have dated at least one man who wanted to be my ‘big strong man’ that was capable of making me happy,”

              Then this would be correct, assuming you had this experience. But there is a world of difference between “I had an experience with a man once,” and “All men are this way.”

              Believe it or not, I have also had terrible past relationships; most humans have. But I don’t look at my worst ex-girlfriends and say “All women are like these women.” I’m asking you to grant men the same benefit.

            • “You have no way of knowing what “men” think, and therefore this is a gross (and frankly offensive) generalization. There are men here telling you this statement is wrong.”

              Is this the bullying that is apparently going on that Iben was talkign about? That calling out someone for their behaviour is now considered bullying?

            • “Archy, you and Mike L are not the only men in the world. How do you know I don’t listen to men? I might not agree with you but that doesn’t mean I don’t listen to men.”

              Because we’ve asked you to stop TELLING men what they think, and you haven’t. Guess at what we think if you want, I don’t care, but don’t STATE it as fact. It’s a small but major difference, telling us comes across as you being arrogant and knowing the experience of men better than men do. Do you notice that I don’t get annoyed when you talk about your feelings when it isn’t generalizing all men?

            • Mike, did you not say: “…without a thought to your own inherent biases”?

              Lets be honest Mike, you do not have a high opinion of me. I make tirades, in your own opinion. I have “inherent biases”, I use “abusive language”, I am the one that needs to change and I’m the one that doesn’t understand it like you do. You question my “intentions”, I not only misquote you but apparently am purposely distorting your words. I get it! I’m the bad guy! What else is left to criticize me about? What other negative judgements would you like to make on my persona? How in the world do you expect to conduct a mutual discussion if you can only talk to someone by criticizing them 95% of the time. I don’t know what you want from me. I am who I am. I am not perfect. I am flawed. But I am always sincere. And if you don’t think I am, there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

              Archy, you and Mike L are two men. Two men that I obviously, (but not purposely) rub the wrong way. But you are not all men. And there are men that think differently from you. My opinion is based on my personal experiences with men, along with what I’ve gathered through discussions with friends, family and websites. I understand you do not agree with my experiences. But I can not deny my experiences just because they make you unhappy.

              By the way, I don’t think making generalizations when talking about broad topics when it comes to men and women is wrong. I’ve made generalizations about women and their perchant to enjoy celebrity gossip and care about silly things. Does that mean it applies to all women? No. But it IS a big chunk of our culture and I DO beliee it’s a problem among women. When I make these generalizations about women, I largely don’t see any women or men that have an issue with that.

              Yes I make generalizations sometimes. This doesn’t mean that they apply to you. But when talking about broad topics, when you do believe there is a big common issue among one gender, it’s helpful toward the discussion. That is my opinion.You are not going to stop me from believing that anymore than I am going to stop you from believing some of the things you believe.

              Please respect that.

            • Erin, I do not worry when you say you feel most men do this or that, it’s your opinion. I worry when you STATE it as fact. When you continually state stuff as fact and TELL men what they think then you will be criticized. It’s arrogant behaviour and needs to be called out. Is it really that hard for you to say “I feel men think this” instead of say “Men think this”?.

              I agree with a lot of what you say in respect to some men and some porn, there is shit out there I find utterly disgusting, I hate the plethora of “dirty talk” that treats women like shit, I hate the narrow view in some porn of what women are portrayed as, but I don’t say it’s all or even most porn because most porn is actually produced at home via cellphone these days. I am sure there are plenty of guys these days that have silly views of sex that are influenced by porn.

              I don’t object to what you feel, I object to the stating as fact. When you state it as fact, and then state what men think as fact it completely dismisses men’s experience because you speak as if you know better than they do. If you say you FEEL they think this then it doesn’t dismiss their experience, it just means you feel they think that.

            • Okay then. Women are crazy. They are emotionally unstable and can turn berserk any time. They like bad boys. They don’t like nice guys. They hate, really hate shy guys. They like handsome men with athletic toned bodies with six pack abs.

              Generalization is okay right, Erin ?????

          • Lori Lothian says:

            Erin, you wrote “A lot of the information is largely centered around what brings men pleasure sexually. So a lot of women have no clue what to do and so they mimic what they see because they believe that if they aren’t this embodiment of female sexuality that is overtly displayed in the media, they are doing something wrong.”

            Mainstream western porn targets a male audience and is mostly a masterbation aid, though for some men it becomes an addiction. The sad truth too, which I did address in my article, is yes, not just how men end up mimicing porn in real life sex, but women too. That is another article, but a great one!

            Thanks for your thoughtful comment to John’s great point that some women have no clue what they want in bed.

            • thanks Lori. And thanks for writing this article with more grace then I could muster about the topic.

    • Lori Lothian says:

      I laughed at your comment about porn and gynacology. No kidding. As for this” o for me that’s what a lover does: He doesn’t ask, he doesn’t put you on the spot to voice your intimate desires, he goes ahead from them, and possibly makes you discover new ones.”

      The best love making is both as you describe here and the willingness of the man to ask now and then and the woman to answer.

      • Lori,
        Yes it’s funny for me as well, but you understand what I mean, I suppose. Long lasting close up of penises going back and forth in vaginas, it can be very boring in the end :)
        As it comes for “the willingness of the man to ask now and then and the woman to answer”, Mike L raise a very good point, one that I duly address in “Being French”, and it’s the question of trust going with what I call the “black mark”. The sad truth is this: There are things that many men like to do when still considering as real sluts the women doing them or worse asking for them. And women absolutely feel this inclination when it’s there. Therefore, no need to explain why they can get cold feet about voicing their needs or fantasies, under such circumstances.
        In the book I express that to men in this way: If you want to see appearing the delicious whore, then don’t kill the angel first! (“whore” in a symbolical way, ok? :) ) Now when this deep trust is there, you’re right. Wishes can be voiced as well, and at least the woman will feel free to do so with no fear of the “black mark” anymore.

        • I like the closeups because I rarely get the opportunity in real life. It’s actually quite informative, porn is actually where I learned where the clitorous was, learned that vulva come in all shapes n sizes, saw how the vagina stretch and contracts, saw the way it contracts during orgasm, etc. Textbooks don’t teach you that much!

  3. 6, sex is easy to get if you aren’t very attractive.

  4. Hank Vandenburgh says:

    7. All women want really fast all the time.
    8. Never try to feel what’s going on in her body. Speed is what she wants.
    9. Foreplay ends with penetration.
    10. Women love degrading language all the time.
    11. The dog position is EVERYONE’s favorite. Use it exclusively, and you’re never wrong.

  5. Lori Lothian says:

    My husband says he would add

    * foreplay is quick and always involves a BJ
    * the average total time of a sex experience is in minutes
    * kissing is an after thought not part of the ongoing experience

    • “* kissing is an after thought not part of the ongoing experience”
      Kissing doesn’t do much for me…Or are my feelings not valid on the matter 😛
      I wish I experienced the magic of kisses but they don’t seem all that great….I don’t think I’ve heard many men say they are that great either, maybe women experience it differently.

      • Well its different for me . I’m a man and I love kissing. For me kissing is the ultimate act of intimacy between lovers. I don’t feel any overwhelming emotions during penetration, but just because of passionate and intimate kiss, tears can flow from my eyes. My first sex ( penetration ) is not really memorable experience for me. But the first kiss I have, its the special moment I have never forget.

        I do think many men feel like me. I have friend who like to visit prostitute although he is married. He said he can only kiss his wife, but can have sex with any hot women.

        And that’s why I think we don’t see many kissing in porn. Because kissing is so intimate. I’m sure many porn performer don’t want to kiss because it can ruins their feelings. Penetration? Meh, its just lust, not feelings.

        • It might be the fact that the only woman I kissed had bad breath and it was a turn-off lolol. But I was also sold a lie of kissing being so magical like it was as good as an orgasm and when I did get around to kissing….it just felt like a bit more than hugging, wasn’t overly mind-blowing.

          • Brushing teeth first is key!

            • Haha yes! I like the idea of kissing, but real world experience has been less than fortunate. I guess that’ll change when I am in love or have a huge crush n a partner whom brushes their teeth! haha

              Do you guys normally smell your partners breath when kissing?

            • I’m very sensitive to bad breath. My boyfriend and I always brush good before a makeout session. Also, making out after a big meal is usually not a great idea due to the burping situation.

            • Yeah that’d be a problem! It’s annoying cuz there was no bad smell “down there” for her, but kissing her LITERALLY made me start to dry reach (I am super sensitive to bad smells, I cannot be around someone vomiting without extreme nausea myself) and horrified me bigtime. I eventually mustered up the nerve to ask her to brush her teeth :S n after that is was okish but I do wonder if there are smells we pickup on that make us more attracted to someone subconsciously. I get shivers thinking of it now, the kiss was “sloppy too” so ickkkkyyyyy bad breath saliva on me.

            • There are definitely bad kissers out there! I once briefly dated a guy whose idea of kissing was to immediately open his mouth as wide as he could and shove his tongue in my mouth as hard as he cold. I felt slobbered on and suffocated. It was gross. I tried to teach him good kissing but he couldn’t learn, alas. So that relationship did not go anywhere. Good kissing requires fresh minty breath, firstly. Second, starting out light and sensual and slowly getting more hot and aggressive. You have to take periodic breaks from kissing on the lips, give little kisses on the face and neck, and combine it with a lot of touching and caressing, mmmm. Also, if the guy has a 5-o’clock shadow, extended kissing can be abrasive to the woman’s face and lips. Keep that in mind. I have ended up having sex with guys simply because I got so turned on from kissing. Heavy kissing can naturally transition into amazing sex. Um, if you wear glasses, take them off or they will get face prints on them. But make sure you set them on the coffee table when you take them off so you dn’t end up crushing them on the couch. I’ve made that mistake more than once. It makes for an expensive surprise at the end of your date.

              In a way, kissing is more intimate than actual sex. I can tune out and disconnect during intercourse if I’m tired or distracted. Can’t do that as easily when engaged in heavy kissing. Great kissing means being totally into being with your partner at that moment.

            • Thanks for the advice 😀
              Why couldn’t they teach that in school, at least to tell us that?

        • John, does your wife’s friend know he is sleeping with prostitutes?

          Other then obviously threatening their relationship, he is potenially threatening her health if she doesn’t know.

          • If it’s a legal brothel the risk would be extremely low, far lower than sex with the average woman (or man) as sex workers have far less STI’s than the average person in legal brothels due to stringent health checks.

            • Can you please reference your statistics? Thanks.

              Regardless, I am not convinced that “legal” brothels are places of stringent health checks.

              Again, even if they were, I am not sure how that justifies what is going on within this relationship.

            • Well if the licensing works as I am led to believe then they are required to be tested monthly, fail the test and you lose the license. If it works like this then it’s far safer to be with a sex worker.

              http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/monthly-sex-worker-tests-are-ridiculous-health-experts-say-20110530-1fctn.html

              “Professor of Sexual Health at Melbourne University, Christopher Fairley, said research showed monthly testing was unnecessary and a waste of public health resources because sex workers have much lower rates of STIs than other people.

              This was backed by a recent study of patients at the Melbourne Sexual Health Centre which showed that of 2896 female sex workers tested for STIs over three years, only 3 per cent were positive.

              In contrast, the study found that 41 per cent of 4208 STIs diagnosed at the clinic over the three years were in men having sex with men.

              “You are at lower risk of catching an STI if you have sex with a sex worker than if you have sex with a member of the public,” Professor Fairley said.”

              h ttp://www.health.gov.au/internet/sti/publishing.nsf/content/campaign2

              “Research shows more than ten per cent of the population carries the virus responsible for genital herpes. In 2009 alone, more than one in ten Australians diagnosed with a reportable STI had gonorrhoea. ”
              So 10% vs 3%, I’ve seen other studies saying higher.

              It doesn’t justify it at all but it’d be far better to goto a legal sex worker than your workmate from a statistical point of view alone.

      • I love kissing and I don’t think I could be in a relationship with a guy who didn’t enjoy kissing me. Fortunately, there are plenty of guys who love kissing too, I’ve learned.

  6. While I must say I’ve learned a few things from pornography over the years, none of your top five are among the list. Facials never made sense to me except for “marking your turf”, as for me, it feels so much better coming IN as opposed to ON.

    I understand the visual, but just as there is the perception that skinny/boney girls visually seem more appealing in our society, the kinesthetics are antithetical to this, at least for me. Same thing with ejaculation, feels better in the mouth versus whatever told us it looks better on the face.

    Have my opinions about anal sex as well, but atm just seems like an accident waiting to happen to everyone involved at some point.

    Adam

    • What accident happens to men when a woman is suppose to be the one to take a penis in her mouth after it was in her butt?

      I think even a woman swallowing ejaculation in her mouth is a very porn heavy topic no?

      • Ass to mouth is very risky, E.Coli, etc. I have NO idea why people would do it without a dental dam. Ugh.

      • I think a woman swallowing probably originated more in the quickie sense of a bj where it was hard to find a tissue. Some women n men also enjoy it or they enjoy their partners reaction. Men n women giving oral may actually “lap” up a similar amount of fluid from a woman and occasionally may even get quite a load from her.

        The accident that happens to men in what he is referring to would be pooped on.

        • I have no idea why people would do it period. Dental dam or not. I don’t many heterosexual men that would even begin to think about taking something that might poop on it in their mouth. Yet this has become something more familiar with expecting women to do so.

          I’m not saying either one is ideal but poop on your penis and poop in your mouth are two different things.

          Alot of these sexual acts are about women taking more of the risk, having more of the invasive acts done to them and making themselves more vulnerable than the man is expected to. … I am obviously talking about heterosexual-wise.

          • Well technically I believe men’s risk is higher for oral sex on a woman vs on a man with no anal (and this is far more common than anal > oral) due to fluid transfers but I see your point. Partly it’s to do with the nature of the bits n bobs we have, men have the penis which penetrates and not many men want to be penetrated. I personally find anything anal a complete n utter turnoff!

            • I really don’t understand your first sentence very well. Men are at a higher risk for oral stds than women are for oral stds vs having anal sex? Is that what you are trying to express?

              Yes, part of it is the nature of our parts. But what I see is men taking advantage of this natural inclination between hetero men and women and really exploiting it to make women less human and more like living sex dolls.

              Women are being asked and pushed in the direction of doing more hardcore sexual risks in order to please men. It has become normalized in our culture to gag a woman, choke her, slap her, spit on her. Cause her some kind of discomfort and pain. And while some women may very well enjoy this, alot of these new acts don’t even really provide actual physical pleasure for women so much as physical pain, even if some women might emotionally or mentally get off to them. And pretty much every one of the acts listed do give men no physical pain and alot of physical pleasure as well as mental or emotional pleasure.

              What I see is a lot of projections of men exploiting women for abusive sex and I am seeing younger generations of women growing up believing that they need to be punished in some way to enjoy sex.

              I remember talking to an older man once about this and he said that sex use to be fun and playful and mutual in old 70s porn. Now it was about beating women up (his words, not mine) and just using them as somethign to jerk off in (his words again, not mine.)

            • “I really don’t understand your first sentence very well. Men are at a higher risk for oral stds than women are for oral stds vs having anal sex? Is that what you are trying to express?”

              No I mean a person giving a blowjob to a penis has less risk as far as I know of STI’s vs a person giving oral sex to a woman. Last I heard the nature of the vagina being always (or usually always) moist allows more transmission. Ejaculation may change that risk though. One of the reasons I want gardasil for myself is the risk of throat/oral cancer from oral sex which is on the rise apparently.

              “It has become normalized in our culture to gag a woman, choke her, slap her, spit on her. ”
              Since when? I don’t know anyone who’d try such stuff…maybe a light slap (though it’s not uncommon for women to dig their nails in, my guy friends have scars to prove:O). Do you mean just in pro porn?

              “I remember talking to an older man once about this and he said that sex use to be fun and playful and mutual in old 70s porn. Now it was about beating women up (his words, not mine) and just using them as somethign to jerk off in (his words again, not mine.)”

              Then he is generalizing, in the last year I’ve watched quite a bit of porn and haven’t seen much of the abusive elements and I turn it off if I do see it. The last video I watched was a sensual massage that turned into sex and the video had a flip-version, one was man on table with woman massaging and the second was the same actors in reverse. No anal, a basic blowjob + oral on her, penis in vagina sex after 10 minutes of a massage. It’s very easy to find lots of videos like that, just google sensual massage porn and you’ll prob find oodles. Porn isn’t about ONE thing ever apart from sexually explicit material.

              I dunno wtf kinda porn you ladies are watching but it sure as hell is way different to what I watch and what I want. If a woman expects me to beat her during sex or gag her, spit or slap on her I’ll be walking out the door I think cuz that is a huge turnoff.

  7. Damien says:

    I also back up that porn seems to say women want it hard and fast with a mechanically regulated speed all the way until the end.
    That and good sex has to involve at least 4 or 5 position transitions.

    From my experience good sex is nothing like that at all.

    I grew so bored of porn and the fakeness, degradation and unconsciousness of it that I cannot stand to watch it anymore.

  8. Thank you so much for your article! Sadly, pornography has become sex education for today’s youth. It’s the skewed thing that happened when people decided that we could not teach tweens about sex. So now they are learning misogyny. But even excluding that group, since the advent of internet pornography, I’ve had so many men who grew up in the pre-pornography era start wanting to do all sorts of creepy junk that basically hits the off switch on me. Its hit the point where I no longer want sex or want to explore a sexual relationship because there is one certain creepy thing on every pornography site that used to be taboo and now is the norm. And the fact of the matter is that I used to LOVE sex.

    As for the whole gagging thing, Shelly Lubben actually has testimony, and I think even video that documents that the “actresses” do throw up sometimes. She and others have documented that there is a lot of fraud and coercion that goes on in pornography too. Consent is a gray area, and its not okay to get your jollies off a situation where consent is hazy. Although some may look askance at Lubben based on her conservatism and religiosity, there’s no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater given that she does have documentation. Moreover, part of the problem with raising pornography-harm awareness is that the people with the most information are often the most traumatized people and, thus, credibility issues arise. Yet, they’ve still managed to get some proof. that says something.

    As for parts being in other parts and then in the mouth, Gail Dines, a professor, has extensively documented the health effects of this issue. There are also other deleterious health effects that happen to the “actresses” in pornography.

    If guys want pornography so badly, I say, “Well, they can have it. They better love it because if they keep it up that’s what they’ll be left with. I hope it keeps them warm at night.”

    • If guys want pornography so badly, I say, “Well, they can have it. They better love it because if they keep it up that’s what they’ll be left with. I hope it keeps them warm at night.”

      well many men already do that, they rather watch porn than sex with their wives. So yes, they can have it and they have no problem with it. Its the wives that lost power, good for them

      • Many men have no choice really, their wives do not give them affection. 200 sides to every story!

      • John, I acutally think it sounds like a loosing situation for both, not just the woman; when a partner is interested in porn and not his partner. She looses yes. But then so does he.

  9. Porn just seems so sad to me….sex and grossness mixed together in a weird combination….

    For me, some of the most erotic scenes occur when there is no explicit sex or nudity or fluids being ejected….one of the most erotic scenes (off the top of my head) occurs during “Ridicule” (French film with Judith Godreche)…the young man (Charles Berlin or something like that) dressed in courtly clothes from another century brushes off pollen from her skirt in the green room and he gently keeps brushing it off and he looks at her knee/lower leg…and they both are almost ecstatic just from that close contact….

    The stuff on the list above sounds anti-erotic to me…

  10. Pornography, to me, is just another manifestation of a societal perpetuation of sexual superficiality glorified.

    ALL of my ex’s LOVED porn. I watched with them, ONCE. I found it boring, degrading, and abusive in so many ways. Interesting that this was not mentioned. Given that they all enjoyed porn and not me (I was NO prude), was a subtle, yet distinct message that turned out to be blindingly true in the end of all of them: abusive, psychopathic, mysogynists. I am not implying that all men are this way, but a great deal of them are, and with all I’ve experienced, you don’t have to be a child, but in fact, an adult female and be sexually abused, whether this is through objectification, implication (this is what I want YOU to do/behave for ME-porn) of objectification, coercion, manipulation, or outright abuse, it’s all sexual abuse and many women have been traumatized by men like this, but rarely is it discussed.

    Sex is overrated, while the foundation for good sex really does lie inside the relationship function. Many women hang onto a man because ‘it’s such great sex’….makes you wonder where everyone’s priorities are.

    I’m single and enjoy it. I no longer feel I need to be with a man and ‘prove’ myself sexually or to feel that this is all he wants, versus respecting and wanting me as a human being. Dating these days requires ‘bedding’ someone early on and this gets both men and women into trouble, BUT mainly women because there is nothing more dangerous than a love bombing, manipulative, pathologically lying, sexually coercive, abusive psychopath/narcissist to make her life ‘great’ with all that ‘great’ sex.

    I make men wait. None of them can. And for me, I’m in a place in my life where I’m very comfortable with that. I think if more women thought highly of themselves, rather than of sex and pleasing a man, desperate for a relationship, her chances of finding good sex through a healthy relationship are much better. . .

    Porn makes degradation and abuse look good. Beware the man who wants you to watch porn with him or to engage in porn-like activities. It’s a reflection of his objectification of you and women in general and you’re giving in is a reflection of your lack of self respect.

    Good sex is found in a loving relationship. Otherwise it’s ‘just sex’. Some people can do that. I’m not one of them. Thank GOD. I’ve learned. The hard way.

    • “Porn makes degradation and abuse look good. Beware the man who wants you to watch porn with him or to engage in porn-like activities. It’s a reflection of his objectification of you and women in general and you’re giving in is a reflection of your lack of self respect.”

      Your comment is one of the most shaming pieces I’ve read. From asserting only loving sex is good to pretty much generalizing men who look at porn are abusive it’s sickening. A man that wants you to watch porn can be doing it because he wants you both to see others have sex, nor does it mean he is objectifying you. If you assume looking at porn is objectifying then it is you who has the disgusting view of humanity. I can watch porn and see them as humans, I can watch plenty of good porn that doesn’t objectify, abuse, degrade anyone, why can’t you?

    • Lori Lothian says:

      Hi Katie:

      You wrote: ” Beware the man who wants you to watch porn with him or to engage in porn-like activities. It’s a reflection of his objectification of you and women in general and you’re giving in is a reflection of your lack of self respect.”

      I have too found that the men I’ve been with who watched porn a lot and//or asked me to watch it with them all ended up displaying an underbelly over time that looked like misogyny. I look back too, at myself and realize there was a two way dynamic, like a lock and key, for those relationships to exist at all. I had an undercurrent to heal that was about my own lack of self worth. When I healed that, I stopped attracting me who secrety hated women..

      The comments on this article are inspiring to me. I love that a simple piece on how porn-ed is far from real sexual ed, and how it can mislead men who might confuse real life with porn formula–has morphed into a broader discussion on the function and pathology of the porn industry…and it’s impact on both men and women.

    • Damien says:

      “I make men wait. None of them can. And for me, I’m in a place in my life where I’m very comfortable with that. I think if more women thought highly of themselves, rather than of sex and pleasing a man, desperate for a relationship, her chances of finding good sex through a healthy relationship are much better. . .”

      I like this. Why rush? Nowadays I feel myself wanting to wait which was definitely not always the case.
      I think something really enjoyable can unfold over stretching that time out… stretching that anticipation… discovering each other layer by layer and getting really excited about each other so that sex becomes a natural extension of the intimacy that is created.

  11. FQuattrone says:

    Reasonable requests I think. All those moves seem absurdly silly to me as a guy. I think the porn movement has had to go to further extremes to move product, but that train left the station of reality a long time ago. Use it to learn where the important parts are and to enjoy watching, but not a guide on normal bedroom conduct.

  12. Number 12, That women actually are eager to have sex, and as much as the average man is?
    Start the debate!

    • Women have ALWAYS been jsut as eager to have sex as the average man is. But that doesn’t mean she wants to run around in school girl skirts and get gangbaged or penis whipped to prove it. Women don’t have the freedom to express their desire for sex like men do either. We are called derogatory names for it. But I can’t actually understand any man that actually thinks that women don’t have just as eager feelings for sex as men do.

      • “But I can’t actually understand any man that actually thinks that women don’t have just as eager feelings for sex as men do.”
        My life experience says otherwise. If what you said was true, I would not see far far far more men complain about not enough sex and far far far more women say they get enough. Now eager DURING sex I could understand if that’s what you mean, number of times per week though I disagree. Women would not be seen as gatekeepers to sex if they were truly as eager as men, nor would women hold such a huge amount of power with their sexuality if that were the case.

        • Wait until middle age. My boyfriend only wants sex once or twice a week now, because otherwise he has erectile difficulties. Very frustrating for me since I’d like a relationship with a lot more sexual activity. Many of my female friends have similar complaints.

          • Funny. Men have been complaining about a lack of sex for about a 1000 yrs it seems.

            Now, a few women complain and it’s a BIG deal. It HAS been frustrating for a lot of men for a lot of years! Welcome to the hoosegow!

          • I have pills which increase my libido as a side effect. Once a day at least!

            If there are that many erectile issues, then are the women ensuring they are being loving n caring wives n not being abusive or treating them bad to cause the men to be turned off? There are many reasons for ED but that would be one area to look into that they can control. Other areas would be stress at work, health problems, etc. Just as man should ensure they are being good to their partners to get them AND keep them in the mood, women need to do more than show up n spread their legs. Might pay to get their prostates checked? Avoid alcohol as well before sex. Middle age is also extremely common for depression I think so they may need to get help for that, and also exercise is a very important. And a tip for the ladies, be super duper sensitive regarding his penis, many men feel pride in their penis n sexuality and E.D would cause great concern n insecurity in many men which may lead to performance anxiety which can compound the effect, I’d avoid joking about it, and don’t joke about it to your friends if he can hear it (good way to kill off love by treating him as a joke 😉 ).

            • I’m always very understanding but my boyfriend is pretty insecure about it, and it causes him to avoid sex. He doesn’t even want to talk about it, actually. We have a good sex life when we have sex, but I’ve pretty much given up on trying to seduce him into having more frequent sex. I never bother trying to initiate sex anymore because he always says no. I’m always confused when I read comments from men who say their middle aged wives don’t want sex because a number of my friends and I have the opposite problem with our middle aged husbands/boyfriends.

              Men in their 40’s sure aren’t like men in their 20’s, I can tell you that.

            • And I’m sure someone will reply that women in their 40’s aren’t like women in their 20’s, and ain’t that the truth as well — getting old sucks.

            • A teensy tiny bit of testosterone would help them probably, both men n women, it would increase their sex drive.

      • @ Erin,

        “But I can’t actually understand any man that actually thinks that women don’t have just as eager feelings for sex as men do.”

        Yes, I agree that women want sex as much as men. It’s just that they (women) only seem to want such eager sex with a very very few select men whom they feel are sexually attractive.

        • Yes, I do believe women are more discriminate about their partners (to generalize). But I don’t think that means a man has to be a fantasy image projected by the media. I have had some AMAZING chemistry with men that would not be considered stereotypically attractive by society standards. But i adored them. And they were incredibly sexy to me.

          I have not been turned on by every stereotypically good looking man I’ve seen or asked me for a date. Infact, just based on looks, I’ve had no response to them at all. But there have been many men that might not fit the norm ideal that I have been wild about sexually. Infact, I like my men a little less pretty anyway.

  13. Freya Watson says:

    An interesting read that made me laugh! For lots of reasons, the best sex doesn’t necessarily make for good viewing so porn by its nature has to exaggerate and dress up what it’s about in order to have an effect.

  14. Thanks for writing this article. Even if it’s *just* (this word gets interjected alot in these conversations) “fantasy” to do some of the acts that are listed here, they are still acts that are somewhat abusive toward women. I have a hard time understanding how this is even fun for men. Why does so much misogyny exist in porn and why do so little men seem to care? Even though this stuff exists, it still gets moderately defended by the fact that it’s “fantasy”. Which apparently makes almost anything okay. Although I doubt you could reproduce a video of a Nazi calling a Jewish person names and then having sex with them while slapping them around like you can do when it comes to men and women in general.

    When there was one Huggies commercial that portrayed something negative about men as fathers, men jumped up and championed together to right it. But when it comes to porn, not many men fight that same fight. I guess this just makes me really sad. I guess what I would like to see is for men to champion women. Real women. And not these fantasies that ultimately come across as abuse, misogyny, humiliation and subordination toward women.

    I would like for the men here to just take a step back for a minute and consider how you would feel if you were on the receiving end of the sexual acts that the author addressed. I understand that this will be difficult for many heterosexual men but I just ask that you try. Would you enjoy having something lodged in your throat to the point of having your air cut off and gagging? I love being able to give my partner oral but it does take some of the joy and pleasure out of it when he expects me to push it so far down in my throat it literally makes me gag. It actually feels like he is taking advantage and abusing his position since I’m letting him into a very vulnerable part of my body. As a man, do you think you would enjoy licking anything that came out of your butt? Why do men even find this sexy to fantasize about in “fantasy” when it’s directed toward women? I could go on.. All I ask is even if you are a heterosexual man, put yourself in the woman’s position the best you can when it comes to porn. It might stop looking sexy to you when it’s the man that is in the obviously more vulnerable position that is taking more of the hardcore acts. And lets be honest, usually women are largely expected to take on the more hardcore acts and have things done to her body while the man gets to do them to her body.

    I have seen an evolution in the way men approach sex. What I see are largely men that do not approach sex from the stand point that sex is suppose to be this mutually enjoyable and wonderfully fun activity that is about two people communicating something between each other. Instead, it’s turned into what *he* can *do* to my body out of the “fantasy” fun of it all. I’ve had men just do things to my body without asking that you find often in porn. As if it was just a normal thing to do and that I as a woman should have just loved and enjoyed. The thing is, from my experience, guys weren’t always like this. There was a short time I remember when I was younger when guys actually wanted to be a partner with me in sex. Now it seems more like guys just want to use me like a living sex doll. This is the side of sex that I find that a lot of men particularly don’t want to address. Because it’s threatening to them when they might not be as successful at sex as they want to be with women. But it’s what I’ve seen. And from discussions with other women, it’s been their experiences as well sometimes.

    And what is even more scary now is that I think younger generations of women are learning that sexuality is about their humiliation and degradation. Talking with some younger women and some of these sex acts seem like nothing to them. They go to even greater lengths of pain and humiliation for their male partners. We think we’ve come so far sexually when I still see a lot of messages that female sexuality is about pain and humiliation and subordination more than it’s about mutual pleasure. It’s like we still fundmentally believe that women need to be punished for enjoying sex.

    • Lori Lothian says:

      ” …from my experience, guys weren’t always like this. There was a short time I remember when I was younger when guys actually wanted to be a partner with me in sex. Now it seems more like guys just want to use me like a living sex doll.”

      This kind of sums the whole thing up, doesn’t it? Because mainstream hetero porn does make the woman a featureless, characterless, sex barbie that the man tosses around into positions based on I suppose his pleasure and inclination. I’d love to see a porn scene where the guy says to the female actress, something like “hey babe, what position would give you the most pleasure right now?”

      That would of course take the scene from formula by creating a real interaction between people. That might be for some porn viewing men, a turn off…..or not.

      • That would be nice. It would also be nice to see the more subtle things about sex more highlighted. Sometimes I think the gentle and softer side of sex is grossly underestimated. The little things and touches a man can do that seem slight can be so amazing.

        I’d also like to see more equality in the projections of how the women look. Where men are able to enjoy women as women and not mearly symbolism of being baby-makers with over engored out of proportion body parts.

      • @ Lori…

        “I’d love to see a porn scene where the guy says to the female actress, something like “hey babe, what position would give you the most pleasure right now?””

        I always asked this of the few women I have been with in life. My ex wife was not terribly interested in any positions, except sponing once a month for 10+ years. That’s why she is my ex wife. All those wasted years. That is why it is so important for women to tell men what they want and/or initiate sex

    • Damien says:

      I feel sad when I read this Erin.

      And I agree. In an article I wrote somewhere on here I likened some of the way we as men approach women and sexuality as violence.
      I was jumped all over for the use of that word.

      Reading the stories that some of you women are posting here has me stand by my assertion.

      I really think everyone wants to connect and if we dug down under the behaviour of some men we will probably find some pretty confused little boys.

      When I was a boy and a young man I was not taught about sex, and definitely not about the potential of healthy and intimate connection (with and without sex)… not by my parents, not by my school. The only things I picked up were through porn and interactions with other guys my age, who probably got most of their attitude from porn.

      I have been unpacking layers of conditioning in myself recently and a huge one is that there is an insidious and, I think, prevalent attitude in masculine culture that sex is the highest value that a woman can bring to a man. I am seeing now that this is so far from the true value of intimacy and connection… of which sex is just one part of, and can naturally arise within the context of deep connection.

      • Damien, your words touched me.

        And I totally agree with you. I think that we just have some confused little boys that unfortunetly grow up into confused men when it comes to women and sex. This doesn’t make men bad at all. But it is still a problem.

        Not many people talk about these things despite the fact that they are around us all the time. Parents don’t have ongoing discussions about porn or sex with their kids and I think it’s pretty common for kids to want to seek out information so they turn to peers or porn.

        Your last paragraph really touched me. May all of us, men and women, work on unpacking the layers of conditioning we’ve all been swayed by to be more thoughtful, healthy individuals. It’s certainly a journey.

        When I was younger, I also believed that my highest value was the way I looked and how well I fit into what society thought I should be. I think it’s a big one for a lot of young girls and women. I didn’t give much credit to men for wanting relationships that were deeper than that. And you could find bits and pieces of information of men expressing that here and there. But GMP has really been such a positive sounding board for seeing alot of things men generally don’t express in real life that run very deep.

    • “And what is even more scary now is that I think younger generations of women are learning that sexuality is about their humiliation and degradation. Talking with some younger women and some of these sex acts seem like nothing to them. They go to even greater lengths of pain and humiliation for their male partners. We think we’ve come so far sexually when I still see a lot of messages that female sexuality is about pain and humiliation and subordination more than it’s about mutual pleasure. It’s like we still fundmentally believe that women need to be punished for enjoying sex.”

      “50 Shades Of Grey,” anyone?

      Not to mention all of the copycats it has spawned, all promoting the message that the way to a man’s heart (especially a rich, handsome, powerful man–you know, the man that all women are supposed to aspire to marry) is is to let him spank you, whip you, anally rape you, and otherwise totally degrade you and treat you as nothing more than a sex toy.

      My sister tried to get me to read the “50 Shades” books, saying that someone had finally written “porn for women.” I barely got halfway through the first book before I threw them in the recycle bin. I’m no anti-sex prig; I enjoy good erotic literature (the writings of Anais Nin, Hentry Miller, et al.) and my husband and I experiment with, and enjoy, sex play that many would regard as “kinky.”** But the 50 Shades books are (1) terrible literature (I’ve read Harlequin novels that were better written) ; and (2) promote the idea, also promoted in most male-oriented porn, that deep down, all women just want to be used, abused and degraded–especially those “bad girls” who dare to enjoy sex.

      The more things change….

      **(And yes, these experiments are based on a foundation of communication and consent, which took us both years to build; we were not virgins, but we both had dysfunctional, fundamentalist religious upbringings and were both very naive and inexperienced when we married.)

      • “also promoted in most male-oriented porn, that deep down, all women just want to be used, abused and degraded–especially those “bad girls” who dare to enjoy sex. ”

        Bullshit, pure fucking bullshit. It’s not in most male-orientated porn. I’ve watched HEAPS of male-orientated porn and the idea is 2 (or more) people enjoying sex. How does it promote “ALL” women anyway? It’s 2 or more pornstars, you could argue that porn suggests pornstars enjoy being used n what not but even then who’s being used? Nearly all porn is consenting, the pornstars have signed contracts so automatically they aren’t being used because they’ve agreed to a part. Most porn is also simply sex, eager willing lustful sex. Not all porn has degrading acts and degradation is subjective, to some people sex itself is degrading so the term has little meaning in the grand scheme of things. Just because YOU find the acts degrading doesn’t mean others find them degrading.

        I think people are “reading” way too much into porn. Porn at it’s very core is neutral, some movies are much rougher and more degrading (in my own view of degrading and what many others commonly agree) but they aren’t even the majority of porn. The majority of porn is sexting and probably amateur porn but these are either not for public viewing, or have little advertising n rarer to find. The majority of pro porn doesn’t even have to be degrading.

        “Not to mention all of the copycats it has spawned, all promoting the message that the way to a man’s heart (especially a rich, handsome, powerful man–you know, the man that all women are supposed to aspire to marry) is is to let him spank you, whip you, anally rape you, and otherwise totally degrade you and treat you as nothing more than a sex toy. ”
        So it’s worse than porn? Porn just shows sexuality, it doesn’t say what a woman is worth, what is in the books for 50shadesofgrey that define what a woman’s worth is? Porn is reflective of fantasy or sometimes reality but for 20minutes, maybe an hour, it doesn’t show the fictious or real couples dating n courtship so it can’t really define a woman’s worth can it?

      • KatyD, we had the same experience! I bought 50 Shades and read the first book to see what all the hype was about and to test my own sexuality. I couldn’t even finish it I was so digusted with it. I also through my in the recycle bin!

        We largely tie this belief that for women to be able to enjoy sex, and enjoy it wildly, that they need to get off to their own physical, emotional or mental abuse. And unfortunetly, this attitude is prevelant with men and women alike. It’s like women can’t really enjoy their sexuality unless someone is still telling then what a wh*re they are for liking sex.

        And don’t get me wrong, I enjoy when my guy is a little more dominant in the bedroom. There is nothing wrong with wanting to play with power in the bedroom. But a lot of this stuff seems less about that and just more about abuse.

  15. I am a guy. In my day, I have watched a lot of porn. I fit the stereotype.
    There is something I don’t fit though – I have never taken porn to be real. Even when it was marketed as ‘amateur/real”
    Let us look at this article in a little more detail.
    1 – The porn we are discussing in this article is visual, western, man-oriented and mostly explicit hardcore videographed scenes depicting heterosexual intercourse.
    2 – Textual porn (Shades of grey/ romantic-erotic fiction, etc.) is not being considered.
    3 – Most porn (the kinds we are discussing) weave in a layer of fantasy that involves sex with strangers, mostly, instantly after meeting them.
    4 – Fantasy and masturbation are two different things.
    Considering these things, it is easy to see why a woman might not be interested in watching such stuff or be even turned off by it. Most mainstream western world porn is created to make men jerk off. Not to get them to fantasise about themselves and another woman and their long lasting relationships. Point #3 is especially to get the complexities of a relationship out of the issue and to concentrate only on the sexual part. While woman “porn” concentrates on the relationship factors, male “porn” gets directly to the point.
    Does this mean men don’t like relationships? NO. This does not suggest anything of that sort, just as watching soaps doesn’t mean that each woman is secretly plotting all the time against another woman/ other women all the time.
    To truly look at how porn shapes our sexual behaviour, we will have to objectively look at different kinds of porn. Porn that is directed towards men and women, of all sexual orientations. There is porn that involves bestiality. Is everyone having sex with their dog because of it?
    Lastly, coming to #4. Something I see most articles on porn completely missing. Most healthy men watch porn while masturbating. I think I speak for my brethren when I say, we do not watch porn like we would watch a sitcom or we would watch a sport. Unless we have a schedule for masturbation, there is no schedule for porn. We do not follow a storyline that we cannot leave till we finish it. Porn is not part of our fantasies. I don’t even think men are dreaming a porn video during a wet dream.
    Having said that, porn does bleed into real life. Because porn picks up from there and then ups the ante – to the point of gross sometimes. These are the things that porn is leading people to do or try – by porn, I again mean visual, western, man-oriented and mostly explicit hardcore videographed scenes depicting heterosexual intercourse –
    1 – Anal – I am actually surprised this did not come into the discussion yet. While a lot of couples might have indulged in it, I think, the number of people wanting to try it or trying it, has gone up because of porn.
    2 – The visual orgasm – How do you know a woman has orgasmed in a porn video? She moans like a cat on steroids. How do you know a man has orgasmed? You seem him ejaculate. The “facial” is this need of a porn video to show ejaculation explicitly. Face makes the greatest impact in terms of visuals. Orgasming inside a woman is also accompanied by a “creampie” shot, the ejaculate being pushed out of the vagina. This is a pure production requirement. Like a horror film being accompanied by creepy music.
    3 – Spanking – Spanking seems to be ubiquitous in porn videos. It is also being brought over to life, slowly but surely. While dick-slapping, gagging seem to garner stern reproach, spanking was not even mentioned. Which is interesting.
    4 – Breasts – While there are specific videos with small breasted females, most porn concentrates on the big boobs. Leading men in real life to be dissatisfied with the breasts (or any other body part) of their own women.
    5 – The male body dissatisfaction – Huge muscles, huge member. Male body dysmorphism (or dissatisfaction with ones body and low self-confidence because of it) is a real issue arising out of porn. How many pornstars do you see with realistic bodies? Most don’t even have chest hair!
    6 – Lack of real conversation/humour during sex – How many porn actors laugh during the sexual act? How many have a real conversation? A lot of people in real life think that conversation and the act of sex do not go hand in hand. Maybe we can blame porn for this as well.
    While the main article dealt with women issues due to men watching porn, I think, most gender issues are to be dealt with holistically. We cannot clean one room of the house and not expect the roaches to come from the other.

  16. Many women on this site probably wont believe it. But while I like to watch hardcore porn ( yes, hardcore, sometimes abused and even rape porn ), my approach towards real sex is very different. My girlfriend even complained to me that our sex is too “vanilla”. I can even get very emotional and cry during sex. But when I watch porn, I can only watch hardcore porn. I mean really hardcore with gangbang, slapping, choking. Weird? Maybe I’m sick, a psychopath, maybe deep down in my heart I’m a really a monster and rapist. Maybe deep down in my heart I hate women. Maybe my emotional and caring side are just a mask to cover my true evil? Maybe.

    But I understand why many women hate porn. I know its very disgusting and mean. And I stil like it, and I still get turn on by it. But I never tell women they should like porn or they should do acts like in porn. I understand why women don’t like porn, but I still like to watch it. This is my stance with porn, sorry.

    • “Weird? Maybe I’m sick, a psychopath, maybe deep down in my heart I’m a really a monster and rapist. Maybe deep down in my heart I hate women. Maybe my emotional and caring side are just a mask to cover my true evil? Maybe. ”
      I doubt it, otherwise you would treat your partner like shit. Taboo probably explains some of it, you might be turned on because it’s not supposed to be done like how I like playing the most evil character in a game because it’s so different to real life and fun to fantasize about being baddd. I go from killing in games, doing evil n horrible acts to my real life where I defend my friends, have helped a few get free from abusive partners, get called good n nice a lot (which is funny cuz im usually a smart-mouthed asshole). There’s a big difference between getting off over consenting but very rough sex, and NON-consenting rough sex (violent rape). I dislike seeing BDSM but sometimes the tied up part looks kinda fun, I might even try it with a partner (though would use a knot that easily comes undone). Roleplay can be fun, but if I saw someone really tied up n raped then I’d be calling the police whilst looking for a weapon to go protect that person. Sometimes I like 3-4somes in porn but I doubt I’d like to do it in reality. Fantasy vs reality really doesn’t make much sense though to me, I am very anti-violent in real life but in gaming n movies I love violence. Maybe it’s simply escape? Cuz I know the characters can come back with a reloaded savegame, no one dies, it’s just fiction. I don’t even like killing animals when necessary (such as a badly injured animal, mercy killing makes me feel fucking terrible) and I save wildlife where I can, yet in games they’re target practice.

    • I think this is kind of what scares me about men sometimes John, and makes me sad. That men can enjoy seeing women hurt and abused sexually but that they might be good fathers or look normal to the outside world. Are you sick or unhealthy or any of that? I don’t know. I do think there is something going on in your subconcious which might not mean you hate women or it might. (I don’t know.) But as a woman, it’s hard to hear about how much men like seeing abusive things done to women sexually. And it makes me feel like men don’t really like women at all or don’t believe women deserve respect the same way men do.

      I am going to refer back to the Huggies Commerical Campaign that a lot of men got involved in. It wasn’t nearly as degrading toward men as some porn can be toward women. But it made men upset enough to fight against it. I can’t imagine any woman saying, “But I like when men are protrayed as stupid. It makes me feel good. But it’s just fantasy so its okay and I do really love men.” I can’t imagine any man thinking that was a healthy woman that enjoyed and appreciated men or really believed she really loved men. Now take that one Huggies Commercial and maginfiy to a large chunk of the porn industry and it feels like like men just think women are less than human beings. And it makes me feel entirely hopeless about relationships between men and owmen.

      • Now take that one Huggies Commercial and maginfiy to a large chunk of the porn industry and it feels like like men just think women are less than human beings.

        You have provided many specific examples over the course of many posts of the kinds of sex acts and related behaviors in porn that *you* find degrading. Some people – mostly women – have agreed with you, but many men AND women have responded that they don’t share your feeling that all those acts and behaviors are inherently degrading, so your conclusion that men (or women) who like porn think of women as less than human is based on a faulty premise. It’s like deciding that “doggy style” is animalistic and a turn-off – which is your prerogative as a sexual individual – but generalizing that preference to assert it’s a bestial act and people who have doggy style sex think of their partners as non-human animals. Your feelings aren’t in dispute, but using those feelings as the basis for “how men think” is.

        • Hank Vandenburgh says:

          The main psychological issue with dog style is that you’re not facing your partner. The main physical issue is the clitoris is way up out of the way so you can’t do a light grind on it on the “in-stroke.” (This is also true of legs over shoulders, which looks hot, but can pull the clit way out of action.) Dog can be a perfectly good position, but it seems to be valorized by porn a bit too much. Many women can be stimulated to orgasm by dog, so it can be pretty good, but this presupposes good vaginal (and g-spot) sensitivity. One mechanism that can also be happening is the hood of the clit being pulled down over it rhythmically in dog. My wife and I never use it (well once the other day – but that was the first time in 20 years.) For a very short time.

          • The relative merits of doggy style (or other rear-penetrating positions) are interesting, but not really my point in bringing it up. My point was that if you don’t personally care for it for whatever reasons, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it doesn’t follow that if you find it animalistic and disgusting, that doggy style afficionados think of their partners as animals and are engaging in simulated bestiality. You acknowledge that despite the flaws you find with it, some people still like it, so unless you’re arguing that it’s an indicator of bestiality – which I don’t think you are – I don’t think we’re disagreeing.

        • Marcus, you said: “… but*many* men AND women have responded that they don’t share your feelings..” I have no doubt in my mind that not everyone agrees with me. I also have no doubt in my mind that not everyone agrees with you. I am not sure what you are trying to achieve by making an arbitrary, and not a very germane comment about the *many* people you believe don’t believe what I think.

          Regardless of that, I understand people don’t share my feelings. Just as I am sure you understand that not everyone share your feelings either. I am glad we both were able to state that not everyone shares our personal and individual feelings. As for if it’s *many* or *a little*, I do not think you know any better than I the true *numbers*.

          I would also like to acknowledge the difference between what may happen in our bedrooms and what explicitly happens in pornography. I enjoy giving my partner oral sex, I don’t find this degrading at all. But in pornography, it can often look and be situated in a way that promotes a hierarchy of male power and female submission.

          It can also depict situations that to most people, even people who may be enjoying the visual, can portionally understand how it would be seen as degrading toward others.

          Infact, it’s my personal belief that even though a large majority of men do enjoy porn, I think they still can see and understand the degradation and objectification that happens in it.
          I do not think doggy-style sex has to be inherently degrading. But of course, doggy-style sex can very well be degrading depending on the situation and reasons behind doggy sex. I had no clue about the information that Hank presented but I found it interested nonetheless. What I have come to understand from alot of adult films, is that a lot of the sexual acts that are often portrayed in them are often unrealistically uncomfortable, do not offer any physical pleasure at all or even painful for the female. Even when there are scenes being portrayed of a woman receiving oral sex, it is usually done in such a way that it realistically would not bring that many women real pleasure in the real world. So my question for you is, why does it seem that men enjoy a lot of material that in the real world either make women uncomfortable, experience physical pain or don’t even bring her pleasure at all? If men enjoy sex with women, and I know they do, why are they not as interested in seeing real things that pleasure real women as much as what seems to have gained popularity through rough oral sex both for the male or female, women being made to have sex in very uncomfortable sexual positions, women being required to take multiple men in her body or even to take something that was in her ass and put it in her mouth? I feel such a disconnect between men and women. I don’t want there to be a disconnect between us. I want to grow closer to men, not further apart.

          In general, when it comes to pornography, there are way more examples of sexual material that exploits both genders and plays off power dynamics as well as largely panders to a fantasy world ideal to a majority male audience. It’s my belief when either one gender is absent from a situation or conversation, that either gender has the tendency to abuse their position of power over the other. I think within pornography, we are seeing largely (obviously not exclusively) a world where men rule and women drool. And because of that, alot of young men AND young women are growing up with expectations about what sex should look like. And if we go by porn today largely, most women apparently love to be called names, slapped around, spit on, gagged on cock and hungerly take a penis that was in her butt and love to have it put in their mouths. Not to mention that a large majority of women are still young, white, big breasts, and thin. What message do you suppose this gives women? Would you think it’s fair for women not to take any kind of message away from what they see men actively enjoying in t

    • I would guess that, yes, your fantasies indicate that you feel a lot of anger and hostility toward women, but you keep it in fantasy. You will probably never act it out. I’m not saying “you are a bad person.” we all have weird, sadistic stuff in our heads. (That’s why violence in movies is popular in general.) But the violent stuff wouldn’t appeal to you if you didn’t enjoy the idea of being cruel and mean. The violent porn is a window into your unconscious desires. Sexuality is very weird and complicated. Just my two cents.

  17. Lori Lothian says:

    Biker:”

    Great comments. Wow. Thanks for this. In the article I wanted to keep things short and sweet, and thus five of many items I could have listed.

    Anal: many women I know enjoy occasional anal play and so I did not bother to list it, since it’s actually become a kind of norm, whether through porn or just an acceptance that there are many pleasure centers in a woma’s the body beyond the clit.

    Spanking: Fifty shades made BDSM moves a more mainstream thing. But even before then, I also know many women who love the erotic pleasure that can come from mild pain, and so “spanking” as a part of consensual play did not strike me as solely a porn move that men might mis-learn. But I do know that some men have picked up the idea that while doing it doggy style random slaps to the butt cheeks are mandatory. That i have found more annoying than pleasurable or painful!

    Talk during sex: Oh my yes. The porn message is that sex involves zero conversation or laughter. Instead, the talk involves the man saying things like, “oh yeah, oh yeah,” or “You like it hard, don’t you bitch” or cliche’s like “who’s your daddy?” Women are relagated to panting, moaning, and occasional, “oh, yeah, fuck me like that” kinds of comments. Of course, real sex with a partner can be delicoiusly silent or full of words.

    Shaved Pussy: I didn’ mention this one. But let’s face it, the bare pussy look is a porn convention that has gone mainstream. I have encountered a few men who actually like the hairy look, but most men these days expect a women to be very trimmed, shaved or waxed.

    So many more porn conventions could be mentioned here of course. I just might compile a list from all these comments and make a list-poster from them. :

    • Damien says:

      I definitely prefer natural… the hairless look… why? I really don’t get it.

      I also want to suggest in reference to porn as a masturbation tool, which wasn’t the original intent of this article… I actually think that pornography when used as a tool to masturbate to is incredibly harming to male sexuality.

      Having been there and explored that I know that being focused on a set of visual and aural stimulation for my arousal that I become virtually disconnected from my own sensations apart from the one that says ejaculation is imminent.
      What I am suggesting is that porn is a killer of the potential spectrum of male sensuality.

      When I pleasure myself now I do so without any stimulus, even without the use of mental fantasy… and focus instead on the multitude of sensation arising in my body. It is diverse and I am continually discovering that I am capable of different levels, shades, shapes and intensities of sexual sensation.

      Porn puts us, as men, up in our head and disconnects us from our bodies… apart from that single brain to cock nerve… and so that nerve being the only sexual aspect of our psyche continuously strengthened it is no suprise that sex is the most dominant and valuable thing on many men’s minds.

      • I prefer hairless. I like smooth skin, I LOVE vulva and love to see it in detail and find hair covers that usually and of course hair in mouth is a problem. I don’t mind hair though but preference is hairless or a cute pattern above with the sides hairless. I also prefer having my balls bare too.

  18. I honestly don’t believe what women will put up with. And men should be ashamed of themselves for how they behave. I think porn has alot to do with why men think it’s acceptable to objectify a human being. Porn take what was a sacred act and desecrates it. Some porn is tasteful, but most of it is revolting, simply because there is no chemistry.

    I have never understood the facial. Seems like a waste of good semen.

    Cunnilingus however I cannot live without. I am an empath so she has to feel good for me to feel good. Good face starts a day or two in advance with subtle cues and hints at it, prepared space, it should start like a butterfly coaxing nectart from a flower and end with her scratching and pulling you up and inside. Even then, just ease up and make it last, drive her wild with desire.

    As for heel yeah they are sexy but must be removed promptly for full functionality. Hard to suck on her toes with heel on.

    Gagging may be some peoples thing, but I’s feel just as uncomfortable as the one being gagged.

    as for the rest of it, yuck is right. Maybe I’m ol fashion but what happened to a lil chivalry with the ladies?

  19. Many women on this site probably wont believe it. But while I like to watch hardcore porn ( yes, hardcore), my approach towards real sex is very different. My girlfriend even complained to me that our sex is too “vanilla”. I can even get very emotional and cry during sex. But when I watch porn, sometimes I watch hardcore porn. Maybe deep down in my heart I’m a really a monster and rapist. Maybe deep down in my heart I hate women. Maybe my emotional and caring side are just my mask to cover my true evil? Maybe.

    But I understand why many women hate porn. I know its very disgusting and mean. And I stil like it, and I still get turn on by it. But I never tell women they should like porn or they should do acts like in porn. I understand why women dont like porn, but I still like it. This is my stance with porn, sorry.

  20. Madeira says:

    Personally I’m a woman who’s a REALLY big fan of facials, wearing heels to bed, and gagging on penis, it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I enjoy them, that said, the oral sex, and anal to oral bits are definitely true.

    I like the feel of semen on my face, frankly heels are more comfortable than flats for me, but as stated tastes vary.

    • I never understood gagging…Nausea is the worst for me and I gag easy, I could only imagine people with very little gag reflex would enjoy it.

  21. Gonna be the devil’s advocate here to people who are stressing over men preferring porn to real women…but doesn’t that suggest women are doing something wrong and pushing men away from wanting to be with them? Porn doesn’t touch you, love you, care for you, so why would these men give that up to focus on porn? Maybe some are hurt by women and scared, maybe some women shame male sexuality so much that they just don’t feel loved by women, maybe they are addicted? Maybe some are just not seeking a real relationship and porn is easier. So so many reasons why someone would forgo being with their partner to choose porn, one does include that maybe their partner is not a good person, maybe they are acting badly and have driven them away? Men do not hold sole responsibility for this problem.

    • >> Maybe some are hurt by women and scared, maybe some women shame male sexuality so much that they just don’t feel loved by women, maybe they are addicted? Maybe some are just not seeking a real relationship and porn is easier. >>

      So it comes down to character; like with anything else in life, you can fight of run away if things get difficult. And your character will either help you or be in your way. If it helps you (and you let it help you) you keep looking for that real relationship and for a woman that will love you. If you let it be in your way, you go for the ‘easy’ solution (which is usually the one that hurts you the most in the long run, but that’s another topic) and choose watching porn and do you ejaculationthing without feelings. It’s a choice, but please don’t cry and play the victim if you chose no. 2.

      • Sadly for many it can be very hard to find a partner. Maybe legal brothels will help soothe their pain, or better dating sites to find someone. Heaps of various reasons for porn usage, some good, some bad.

  22. Another thing which was not touched here is the relationship between porn-that’s-meant-to-be-porn and nowadays video clips. I really can’t stand to see those clips, where often groups of beautiful scarecely dressed women are crawling around some fat ugly guy who takes his pick and performs explicit sexual acts while in reality pretending to sing a song. My kid watches this!!! I have to tell here this is not how men and women are supposed to be together, but she of course finds me oldfashioned and the way her parents behave ‘stupid and boring’. No point in forbidding watching this (although I do forbid it most of the time; I do not want to see it in my house, only sometimes I sit and watch to know what they are seeing and it freakes me out), they will watch it on their I-phones and with friends anyway.
    Personally, I find this more disturbing than the ‘real’ porn movie, since it is so-called ‘normal’ and ‘only a videoclip’.

  23. Alyssa Royse says:

    Phrases like “real women” are really REALLY problematic. There is no such thing as a “real woman” in such a way that implies a single set of values and ideas. Personally I like 4 out of 5 of those thing, and don’t really mind the other at all, so…… Does that make me unreal? Things like this become accidentally “shaming.”

    • Lori Lothian says:

      Hi Alyssa:

      I realize that some women may enjoy some of these acts–and as a woman who can enjoy a good sub-dom scene, I am not completely without a raunchy edge to my own sexuality at times. But what I am trying to get across here is the message that porn is a staged, acted, fictional (and formulaic) representation of sex, and that if men will likely miss the mark if they base their own sex life and expectations of what women want on porn alone (vs communicationg with your partner). I have experienced men who have basically engaged sexually with me as if we are on-camera in a porn film–and these men were avid porn watchers.

      As for the “real women” comment, which seems to trigger a few people, I am clearly saying “real life women” vs performers playing a role in a film as in “real women appreciate, versus the stereotypes porn directors and actors have woven into the collective sexual imagination.”

      I am clearly not saying a REAL woman as in defining women in real life who like facials as unreal!

      The spirit of the article is clearly several things:

      1) I am a speaking of MY top five list of porn formula that does not work for me, most of the time.

      2) I am speaking of central tendancies, the middle of a vanilla bell curve (techniques porn teaches men that are not necessarily what MANY women will rave to their girlfriends about.” It’s clear here I do not suggest ALL women.

      3) I am relating that that each woman is as “unique as her pussy.”

      4) I am suggesting both in the beginning and the end, and even in the middle of this plece, over and over, that men learn what their partners want by communicating with them, vs taking cues from the visual fiction of porn.

      If you have a suggestion about how to make this article not “accientally shaming” i am game. Perhaps a disclaimer sentence that makes it abundantly clear that I am speaking for a vanilla mainstream middle of the bell curve woman, and myself, and clearly not for every woman. (Interestingly, my top five in this piece is also reflected over the years in what girlfriends have complained to me about, with their men who seem to be acting our porn scenes with them vs having intimate sexual encounter with communication….)

      • Lori, I don’t believe that you intend any shame or disrespect, but your elaboration of what you mean with the “real women” still didn’t do anything to reduce what’s problematic about it, in my opinion. Saying it’s shorthand for “real life women”, meant only to describe the vanilla middle-of-the-bell-curve kind of woman you’re talking about *still* has the effect, even if unintentionally, of characterizing those other women as “not as real” because by your way of thinking, they’re out there on the margins, not in the fat part of the bell curve where you think you and most of your sistren are.

        I have the same objection to “real women have curves” kinds of slogans, because it doesn’t just promote body acceptance for curvier women, it implies that less curvy (i.e. skinnier, if you want to remove the euphemism) women aren’t real. Without having to specify what that makes them, everyone knows the words for “not real” are things like “fake”, “phony”, “plastic”, and other adjectives which aren’t nice.

        I have no problem with accepting or celebrating the realness of women (or men) who don’t look like models or act like porn stars, but I rebel at slogans or arguments that insists on making those models and performers “less than” as a condition of celebrating other people’s full humanity. That porn star with the boob job who begs for a facial? She’s real, too, even if the performance and her looks aren’t representative of what most real life partners and encounters look like. That woman who isn’t a porn star but likes 4 out of 5 of the “not real” moves on your list? She’s real, too, even if your vanilla bell curve assumptions are correct.

        Regarding your advice that men learn what their partners want by communicating with them, it takes two to communicate. I’m guessing neither men nor women have a monopoly on reluctance to talk so openly and directly about their desires, but I can tell you from personal experience that neither being open to such communication nor actively attempting to prompt it are enough to get someone to communicate such things if they aren’t willing or able. In such situations, I don’t think taking cues from porn is the only alternative, but I find it maddening when it’s suggested (and it’s suggested a lot) that all a man has to do to learn what his parter wants is to let her communicate it to him. It’s one of those situations where mean are presumed responsible for any sexual problem, no matter what. If he doesn’t ask, then he’s to blame for disregarding her needs, with little or nothing expected of the woman to initiate conversations about her desires. If he tries to initiate and she can’t or won’t “teach” him about her own wants, then it’s still up to him to figure it out, and he probably didn’t ask right or demonstrate enough acceptance to make her feel safe enough to voice her true sexuality. If she witholds because she “knows” all he really wants to hear are what he expects from porn, it’s still his fault.

        One of the clearest ways a woman can communicate her sexual wants and needs to a man, in my opinion, is to *initiate* the kind of sex she wants and enjoys the most. Being receptive to sex when a man initiates is well and good, but does not communicate much about what you, a non-initiating woman, really like most. If you think you’ve got a good handle on what real women don’t like sexually, try a companion list about the kind of sex real women *do* like. One of the worst ways to communicate sexual needs is to pretend or fake that you like something because you think “that’s what he expects”, and then blame him for being out of touch with your authentic desires.

        • I think one problem is where you have one partner, say the man, frequently wanting to do things that the other doesn’t want, so she is forced to constantly ssy “no” “no” “no” and then she’s uptight or a prude or he feels deprived because he’s not getting to have anal or facials or smack her ass or whatever. What if she really just wants vanilla sex? But she shows him that, and now she’s boring. So, maybe they aren’t sexually compatible — but if a large percentage of men now want and expect those things, she’s almost got no choice. It’s like the pubic hair issue – shaving/waxing went from being an optional slighty naughty thing to being practically required. Maybe labiaplasty will be next. We’ll all have to do it or men who all watch porn will reject us because our parts are too ugly. Maybe I’m exaggerating but sonetimes I’m not sure.

          • Why labiaplasty? Porn shows the widest varieties of labia a person could ever seen if you are watching videos. Of the last 100 videos I’ve seen, ALL labia were different.

            “So, maybe they aren’t sexually compatible — but if a large percentage of men now want and expect those things, she’s almost got no choice. ”
            Welcome to being a human. If she isn’t willing to do what a partner wants then she can be single like everyone else that refuses to do what a partner wants if it’s really that bad. Do you think I’d have much luck never wanting to kiss a gf? Think she’d stay around? But men vary in what they like too hugely to really define a single set of desires.

            “It’s like the pubic hair issue – shaving/waxing went from being an optional slighty naughty thing to being practically required.”
            Welcome to being a man, facial hair having to be trimmed to even gain employment in many cases (otherwise you look like a “bum”). Nor is it practically required…men vary in what they like…maybe women need to do a much better job at listening to THEIR man instead of what they think men want? Most of hte insecurities I’ve read on this from women have practically been about a woman GUESSING what her man wants….Do none of you women ever fucking communicate with your partner? Ask him what he wants, don’t guess at it and then let that potentially wrong guess stab at your heart n insecurity build up over an unknown. ASK YOUR PARTNER what they like! If they want something you don’t want to do then say no, or find a new partner if it’s that big of a deal. You are not entitled to a relationship especially one to follow your desires, it is a privilege to even have a partner let alone get to want them to be how you want them to be.

            • Well I suppose that’s true, being alone is always an option. Frankly, there are things I won’t do. For example, I’m not interested in shaving or waxing my pubic hair, I’ve tried it and the upkeep and ingrown hairs and whatnot are very uncomfortable. I’m 46 years old and frankly I think having a shaved pussy makes me look pathetic. I don’t look anything like a hot bare porn star, I look like a middle aged woman who is trying to look like a porn star . Ick! “Mutton trying to be lamb” as they say . Luckily my current boyfriend doesn’t care, but if we ever break up, I’m really nervous about trying to date in the current sexual environment as I don’t think I’m up for it. Anal sex is another example — tried it once, it was horribly, horribly painful and I never want to do it again. I love really hot sex, and I love variety of positions and so on, but my tastes are pretty mainstream overall. It seems like so many people now expect really extreme stuff from sex and I’m not interested.

              Guess I’d better buy a cat.

            • Hank Vandenburgh says:

              Endorse. I want to make love to a woman, not a girl.

            • Based on how many men have fantasies about school girls and babysitters, not all men want to make love to women.

            • Those fantasies are strange, I think it is partly to do with reliving youth. For some I think it’s the fantasy of being BACK in time where you are the similar age. It’s the time of your sexual awakening usually, about 14-15 my sex drive kicked in and I must say hormones were crazy. My guess is that time is imprinted in some people as a good time, OR a time of missed chances, or even a time when there was less stress in life.

              Personally I hated school, I still fantasize about classmates but I think of them as they are now as the same age. Never had a cute babysitter and I was 5 so no babysitter fantasies for me. Then there are the aspects of the catholic schoolgirl/boy sinful sex fantasy which probably affects those who went to single-sex schools more and had a grass is greener view of what their peers experienced in mixed-sex schools.

              So I wouldn’t assume those fantasizing about schoolgirls are thinking of underage people, some probably are but I’d say most are more likely wanting to dress up and fantasize about being back in school vs actually want a schoolgirl who is underage. I wouldn’t mind my partner getting her high-school uniform and I’d get mine and roleplay being back at high-school although I’d probably die laughing too much at the idea.

            • But in these fantasies, the men ususally aren’t pretending they are the same age. It’s usually the men being older teachers of the father of the children of the babysitter he wants to bang. So your explanation doesn’t make much sense in the context of how it’s generally presented to men through porn. Further, okay you dress up as a school boy all you want but in general, in the real world, the women are expected to dress up as school girls. So you talking about how you would dress up doesn’t deal with the reality of how often there seems to be a male fantasy for school girls.

            • I’ve had the fantasies, and I went back in time to the sexual frustration years of highschool. I thought myself of that age again, but in my mind, in my fantasy the people I thought of were of actual adult women, and acted like such. I recently saw a yearbook photo of year 12 and they look quite different to how I think of them and I think of them as their current age (28ish). The fantasy is more about wishing I had sex AND dating in highschool instead of being lonely. My schoolgirl fantasies are actually just fantasies of women I had crushes on in school, and I think of them as their present day self. I have zero desire to ever date any actual schoolgirl, and my tastes have aged as I aged and even 18 year olds are pushing it, 21+ is far more attractive.

              The schoolgirl fetish I’d say has a big amount of taboo with it, often in porn it’s the catholic schoolgirl look and I remember in highschool ALLLL the talk about how the all-girls schoolgirls were horny as hell (same with the all-boy schoolboys, and by that I mean the senior classes were discussed). So the uniforms often have that theme, such as the plaid? skirt with white shirt but they usually highly sexualized too. Weirdly, around here the all-girl school unform had a skirt nearly at the ankles and it was the mixed public schools with the thighlength skirts and shorts so I dunno what school they’re basing their info on but it wasn’t anything I ever saw.

              Some will want to relive youth, some are attracted to mid-late teenagers, some are attracted to earlier teenagers. It’s a very complex thing, but you’ll find with the 18 year old bracket of porn the common themes are thin, taught skin, very bubbly personality and quite often in the schoolgirl bracket the stars are pushing 25-30.

              Of the stuff of teacher/student relationships, I don’t know what porn you’ve seen where it’s highschool teacher? Most common thing I’ve ever seen is college situations like that, a popular one is the sex for marks stereotype. I would guess the fantasy would be to be a man of importance, power, and getting sex with a hot nubile sexy college woman? If it’s highschool roleplaying as a teacher then it’s pretty bad since the power difference is huge and that would actually constitute child pornography in Australia and would be illegal AFAIK since it portrays an act of an underage person having sex. The “schoolgirl” fantasy porn I’ve ever seen is between the same ages and was shot as adults playing dressup, not actually portrayed as year 12 students having sex (which would probably be classed again as childporn), and I would guess it’s trying to do the whole “relive youth” fantasy. There is a difference between someone wearing their school uniform for taboo and kink vs shooting the video to purposely look 100% like year 12 students having sex. The first is a dressup purposely for reliving youth, the second is actually BEING the youth and hence it would be banned AFAIK.

              Keep in mind that rape fantasies are quite common for women, doesn’t mean hey want to be raped but the taboo of it can be quite sexy. It’s also legal to film simulated rape but highly illegal to film real rape (except portrayal of minors, which is illegal for both). Porn is playing on fantasy, and a very common fantasy appears to be reliving youth hence the plethora of schoolgirl/boy stuff, cheerleader/jock stuff. Teacher/student stuff I’d classify as something else and I’ve only ever seen that portrayed in college settings, if that is portrayed in a highschool setting then I’d say that’s pretty fucked up and illegal.

            • Archy, from what I’ve read, *teen* porn seems to prevail with men of all ages. It is infact the leading porn. Infact, I’ve seen statistics that have said that 18-25 year old women tend to be the largest age group in pornography. While I have no doubt that you will once in a while get a 25-30 year old play a “school girl”, I hardly can think that’s the truth based on the statistics I’ve personally read. Having seen other genres of porn myself, some porn even called “milf”, some of the girls in “milf” porn seem to be of 25-30. Because in the porn world 25-30 is considered “old” for a woman, but not for a man. You’ll see both male and female porn stars be open about that fact.

              No matter why *you* personally fantasize about school girls, this doesn’t explain the amount of porn that focuses on school girls with older male teachers or principals. If it was all about what you didn’t get while you were actually in school, many more porn movies would actually depict men wanting to also pretend they were school boys. But you don’t see that. You see men who want to pretend women are younger or where women are infact younger than them while the man has the power and control. You reference “school boys” as if it’s an equal genre to “school girls” but it simply isn’t.

              Having a fantasy for *rape* is an entirely separate conversation for me. While both things may be “fantasy”, It’s way to much a complex issue to say use all “fantasy” under one encompassing brush stroke, in my own opinion.

              I suspect that the only reason you don’t see situations portrayed in porn in high scho

            • “Based on how many men have fantasies about school girls and babysitters, not all men want to make love to women.”
              I thought about this some more but does that mean some women do want to be raped because they fantasize about being raped? I am led to believe a large portion of women have fantasized about this.
              ht tp://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/200805/why-do-women-have-erotic-rape-fantasies
              “A recent analysis of 20 studies over the last 30 years indicates that between 31% and 57% of women have rape fantasies, and these fantasies are frequent or preferred in 9% to 17% of women. Considering that many people are ashamed to report rape fantasies, these stats are most likely lowball figures.”
              That’s a hugeee amount of women, so do you think many want to be raped or is fantasy mostly just fantasy?

            • Lori Lothian says:

              On the rape fantasy issue, I don’t think it’s about assault by a man, but about being “taken” passionately, and Ideally, by a man you know. I used to have those fantasies as a 20 year old (I am now 51) and would always be clear even in my fantasy space, to create a man that I knew was not going to harm me–in other words, a “friendly” rapist, and one really good at pleasuring me! .(I would hazard a guess rape fantasy does not happen in cultures where men are dangerously angry at women and women are afraid of being raped, or in cultures where men are naturally allowed to be macho, such as Latin cultures). BUT this is just a guess…

              Read this by me for more on this theme of women wanting men to ravish (not rape!) them.

              http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/me-jane-you-tarzan-the-politics-of-sexual-polarity/

            • I’ve fantasized about rough sex, but never ever about raping someone cuz part of what turns me on is them WANTING to fuck me. You can gain power in sex with a dom/sub relationship which I have fantasized about, rape itself though I can’t understand how anyone would fantasize about either side. Maybe women fantasize about being a sub more than being raped.

            • Lori Lothian

              On the rape fantasy issue, I don’t think it’s about assault by a man, but about being “taken” passionately, and Ideally, by a man you know. I used to have those fantasies as a 20 year old (I am now 51) and would always be clear even in my fantasy space, to create a man that I knew was not going to harm me–in other words, a “friendly” rapist, and one really good at pleasuring me! .(I would hazard a guess rape fantasy does not happen in cultures where men are dangerously angry at women and women are afraid of being raped, or in cultures where men are naturally allowed to be macho, such as Latin cultures). BUT this is just a guess…

              As far as I’ve heard rape fantasy usually involve a gorgeous and dominant man ravishing a woman despite her reluctance. It has nothing to do with “friendliness” on the man’s part as you suggest.

            • Erin : Based on how many men have fantasies about school girls and babysitters, not all men want to make love to women.

              Die if you do, die if you don’t
              .
              When we have fantasies about older women (MILFS….heard of that term?) you’d come here and blame young men for not respecting older women enough.

            • wellokaythen says:

              “Based on how many men have fantasies about school girls and babysitters, not all men want to make love to women.”

              The paranoia about this is just increasing the intensity of the fantasy. The reaction to this fantasy just sexualizes girls even more, and what gets created is a feedback loop.

            • wellokaythen says:

              Hang on, now. A preference for a shaved pubic area is not automatically a desire for a “little girl” look. That’s the common, easy interpretation in a society like ours that is so totally paranoid about pedophilia. Sometimes the turn-on for the man is the shaving itself. Sometimes the turn-on is the idea that one’s partner would do such a taboo thing for you. Sometimes the turn-on is the revelation of a private surprise. A fantasy of a shaved woman is not the same thing as a fantasy for a hairless girl.

              Although I have no basis for comparison, my understanding is that there are quite clear differences between the look of a prepubescent girl and an adult woman who’s shaved her pubic hair. It would take much more than shaving to actually achieve a “little girl” look, if that really is the motivation. Someone who knows more about developmental human physiology can correct me if I’m wrong on this.

              If I sound defensive, it’s because many years ago I suggested to one of my sex partners that she trim down her pubic hair a little bit, in order to make it easier for me to…figure out what’s what, shall we say. (I was more callow, undiplomatic, and inexperienced than I am now. I did not approach this in the most effective or loving way, I admit it.) Note that I did not say shave, nor wax, nor laser removal, just a little scissor work to reduce the hair length, painless, done in two minutes. A haircut, not a shave, not even a styling. (Just a little mowing because I find it hard sometimes to breathe through my nose….) Her response was to call me a pedophile. That seemed like an overreaction at the time, and it still does.

            • Because it was an overraction.

              I’ve always been bothered by the leap of logic people are willing to make in order to get from “I prefer short of no pubic hair.” to “I wanna have sex with little girls.” And no its more than just the existence of guys that really do think that way.

              Otherwise the same stigma would follow women that prefer men with little or no pubic hair.

            • i think women do ask their men what they want but not all men tell them the truth, they tell them what they think they want to hear. Even if the woman is open to hearing whatever the man says, sometimes the man is too embarrased to say what he really wants so the women are left guessing and going by what they think men want

          • I don’t think your exaggerating Sarah. I think that women want to please their man. They don’t want him to see her has this update prude. So a lot of women will do things that they might be totally comfortable with because honestly, a number of men want them. And a lot of what men seem to want now-a-days, seems less about pleasure and more about punishing women or women having to endure some amount of pain.

            • Erin, you write:

              They don’t want him to see her has this update prude. So a lot of women will do things that they might be totally comfortable with because honestly, a number of men want them.

              In an earlier comment, the author of this article, Lori Lothian, wrote:

              I am suggesting both in the beginning and the end, and even in the middle of this plece, over and over, that men learn what their partners want by communicating with them, vs taking cues from the visual fiction of porn.

              Do you (anyone, not just Erin) see how incompatible the behavior described in the first quote is with the suggestion offered in the second? Ignore the clause about taking cues from porn for a second, and focus on the bit about learning what their partners want by communicating with them. That looks like very sound advice, but it requires a willing and honest communicator. When you have someone who sends false signals about what they not only tolerate, but enjoy, while secretly disliking stuff and blaming the need to fake it because they’re afraid of looking like an uptight prude, or only faking because they’ve concluded they know what men require without asking, it doesn’t matter how considerate and communicative the other partner is — the faker not only makes it impossible for their partner to “learn what they want”, but blames them for the lack of learning.

              Erin, what would happen with your attitude toward faking if instead of framing it as your defense against looking like an uptight prude to a partner you don’t want to lose, the goal was to be authentic about sexual compatibility? Let’s say there’s some sexual variant you love and he hates, or vice versa. Every time I mention a real thing, people get hung up on that thing instead of the point I’m trying to make, so let’s call this hypothetical sex move “flitzing”. (If there is such a thing it’s news to me.) That one of you loves flitzing and the other finds it gross or degrading isn’t necessarily a deal-breaker for the relationship, because that incompatibility has to be weighed against the many other ways in which you might be sexually or otherwise compatible. Maybe the flitz-lover wouldn’t mind the lack of flitzing if there was an abundance of other things they valued and enjoyed; then again, maybe it’s such an important of a satisfying sex life to them (and they care about a satisfying sex life) that they don’t want to be with someone who isn’t into flitzing. That doesn’t mean they think non-flitzers are uptight prudes, but they don’t want to have to either give it up or know that their partner doesn’t like it. They want (as I think most people do) sexual compatibility. Regardless of where the love of flitzing comes from – genetics, porn, irradiated spider bite – what good can come of the flitz-averse parter faking? (I’m talking about faked enjoyment or even just willingness, not just faked orgasms.) If it’s one of those situations where making your true feelings about flitzing known would end the relationship, I sympathize with how hard it is to be that honest, but I’m not seeing much upside to *pretending* you’re sexually compatible when you’re not. Let’s say you fake a guy into committing to you by not “looking like an uptight prude”…how is that loving to him or yourself?

              It doesn’t even have to be sexual to make the point. If there was an underlying incompatibility on some housekeeping issue, like making the bed every day, would you be sympathetic to a man who says they only make it, while full of resentment, because it seems like women expect it and they don’t want to look like a slob? What other things is it okay to chronically fake an enjoyment or willingness to do, while secretly resenting it, in the name of appearing to be compatible? I know this happens a lot, and it’s not just a woman thing, but it seems to me that the person being lied to is not to blame for the lie.

            • Marcus, you will get no any argument from me that “faking” or pretending I liked something in the relationship wasn’t right. I’ve been honest about that and owned the fact that I wasn’t contributing healthily to the relationship. But it WAS my defense against looking like an uptight prude; in combination with being a young woman who wanted to meet my partner’s sexual expectations when I had no clue what men wanted. I am not sure why you’d want me to frame it another way. Is it offensive to you in some way? If so, I don’t really understand why.

              I grew up never knowing porn existed until I started having significant relationships with men. It was a culture shock. Men had this whole world that they loved that I found was very uncaring toward women in a general way and clearly set these over the top unrealistic expectations. I was actually much happier with my body before I realized what men really wanted women to look like. Even when I was in worse shape. But seeing what men were looking at really made me question about how I measured up. Fashion Magazines may have unrealistic expectations but you never see those women as naked as you see women in porn.

              I didn’t have much of any sexual knowledge and I feared that I wasn’t doing what I was suppose to be doing. (I already knew that I looked nothing like how I was suppose to look due to what appeared to be men’s standards.) So I spent a lot of time then taking in information about what it obviously seemed men enjoyed greatly. And I mirrored it. Do I think I’m the only young woman who had this same thought process and mirrored porn? No. Infact, I think that this happens among young boys and men too. If he has been looking at something since he was roughly 10 years old (the average age young males begin their relationship with porn), he wouldn’t even have had a chance to develop his own likes and dislikes pure of suggestions from another source. And ironically, I think if porn never existed, women would probably be more open to sexual acts that actually happen in porn. It’s hard to expect women to be so open to it when a lot of it is based on their abuse (mild or hard) and their subordination.

              Now, back to me, I know what I was doing wasn’t healthy. I totally own that and have spent a lot of time working on it. But I’ll admit, when I’ve been more honest about what my sexuality is with some male partners, they have pouted, been visibly and verbally disappointed, try to rationalize with me why I should do it anyway, made comments to me about how other women do these things with no problem. (They weren’t bad guys at all, but like all of us, they had some things to learn.)

              When I’ve been regular old me, just one woman that can’t compete with the millions of beautiful young women with perfect bodies online that are doing crazy stuff that alot of men are routinely spending time with; my partners may have enjoyed the sex but it was nothing like the responses I would get whey I personified the fantasy porn seems to embody as the epitome of female beauty. And I think this is the part you are missing. That women are seeing very real changes in men and how they approach sexuality due to pornography. And since women DO want to connect and have AMAZING sex lives, they feel trapped by these expectations that men have that has really increased in the last 15 years or so.

              I remember a conversation I had with an older man that said sex use to be about having fun with each other. He references porn from the 70s, which is apparently very different from a lot of the porn we have now.

              There was a two-part problem in some of my relationships. A)I was not honest about who I really was sexually. B) The men I was with largely were not really excited or as entertained by my sexuality and were visibily more pleased and complimentary of me when I acted more like their fantasy instead of just being myself.

              I don’t think men are making women feel open to expressing who we may really be sexually because men have this sexual world that despite heavily using women for it, really excludes women largely from the experience.

              I understand that by not being forthcoming about my sexual likes or dislikes, was a problem. But I also acknowledge and see how men are approaching sexuality due to a heavy influence of porn. And I think it’s causing more hardships between men and women, than not. How valued by women would you feel if they enjoyed seeing you called names and basically verbally and physically sexually abused (because honestly, alot of what goes on in porn is heavy on physical and verbal abuse, even when the female partner is moaning for more of it.)

              I think a lot of men forget that porn is made primarily for them. And that a lot of the showy, circus trick-like-things that are done in porn don’t really even bring real women pleasure. A lot of the acts place expectations on women to be the receiver of usually more hardcore, sometimes violent or hurtful sexual acts. Women are made into the more vulnerable party. Heterosexual men are largely not expected to perform a lot of the invasive or abusive sexual acts that I am finding a growing amount of heterosexual men want their female partners to perform.

              You wrap this all up in a package of lovely, young women with perfect bodies, and it’s a hard package for men to disconnect from. But by not disconnecting from the porn, there are a lot of men that are not relating to regular women in their daily lives. I’ve experienced this. So have a number of other ladies that commented in this piece. Please hear us out. We don’t want to be second best next to 21 year old pornstars dressed up in school girl outfits, with implants, being called names and having a penis shoved so far down her throat she is physically wreching.

              Taking your “flitz” example (by the way this was a very clever way to approach the topic since describing actual sexual acts can confuse things), you said that maybe the flitz-lover wouldn’t mind a lack of flitzing if there was an abundance of satisfying sex. Maybe. And maybe no matter how much each partner works at incorporating a healthy sex life (and I do think that in our busy lives making time for routine sex can be work), the flitz-loving partner is seeking an outlet for this desire from another source. So the other partner begins to wonder about the true quality of their sex life and even might resent the other partner is still not being happy, on some level, with the sex life they provide.

              The reality is that with this newfound abundance of porn, men are getting lost in the fantasy of it more. I use to hear men say things like, “I only watch porn once-in-awhile”. But today, I don’t hear men say things like that anymore.

              I understand your point. I wasn’t forthcoming about what I really liked. Therefore I was in the wrong. YES! Totally! But please see what led me to make that choice and please and try to understand some of the women here that are seeing men relate to them less like human beings and more like sex dolls.

              Most women don’t want to disappoint our partners. But it seems like that’s all us regular average women do is disappoint our partners because we can’t be a million different images or flavors he is seeking out online. (Yes yes..men like variety so women must be the variety they consume. I guess that’s what my place as a woman is suppose to be. A product that men can and should consume because men like variety right?)

              That is a huge disconnection regarding sex. When you have a good chunk of men looking at and enjoying a product that they will even admit doesn’t always realistically bring women pleasure, there is something wrong happening. Why do men like SO MANY sexual acts that are based on things that might not even bring a woman pleasure? What does that say about our societies current sexuality?

              So many questions.

            • A nicely thought out and well expressed response. As I commented earlier I don’t see how other men regard porn as a sex manual. As an older man I’m of the “it should be good sweaty fun” school. Of course I am not a heavy porn watcher either – not that I am saintly in that regard.

              I think you brought out some good points. Although the sword does cut both ways as some women seem to expect all of their bed mates to have 12 inches of swinging meat and act disappointed when you don’t. And neither do all men hit the gym to develop “six pack” abs. I’ve done a lot of weight lifting and would be the first to point out that, with the exception of men who develop them naturally, that the amount of work it takes is not inconsiderable, but I digress.

              So, we come down to expectations and what our culture tells us is “the norm”. The prevalence of porn has, I think, at least as many negatives as positives. The main positive being a more relaxed attitude toward the joy of sex and the negative is the emotional detachment which regards the sex act as an end in itself. While a big fan of the sport I have to say, as a man, that my pleasure is tied to the woman’s pleasure (and I detest the term “sexual partner” – she’s a woman not a thing). As a result I try to find the things that please her, and that will be found in porn only in burlesque form.

              And you rightly point out that there is a disconnect between the exaggerations of porn, the emotional disconnect, and unrealistic expectations. Sex without an emotional connection, at least as friends, is mere rutting. However, there are still guys left who value the company of women as more than just a sex toy. So, don’t give up. And I have dated women with massive boobs and some who if there nipples were removed would have scars on their shoulder blades. After 6 months you don’t really notice anymore. The emotional connection is what is important, is what endures, and makes for a happy sex life. There are other considerations but that is the most important.

            • Sex without an emotional connection, at least as friends, is mere rutting. However, there are still guys left who value the company of women as more than just a sex toy…The emotional connection is what is important, is what endures, and makes for a happy sex life. There are other considerations but that is the most important.

              Isn’t that more a position on casual, or at least non-exclusive sex than porn? You could make the same argument (and many have) long before Internet porn became the scourge of human sexuality. And most of the time, just like your argument, whatever’s wrong with casual sex is attributed to dirty male sexuality, while women’s sexuality is characterized by noble emotions, not base physical urges.

            • No, I don’t think so. Casual sex has been around as long as humankind has been around, and I do draw distinction between sex for fun, and sex for love. One is sporty play and the other more than just the physical mingling of bodies. I am not passing some sort of prudish moral judgement upon it but observing how the attitudes toward sex have changed resulting from the influence of porn. People are individuals with individual tastes and desires, but to the degree someone is doing, or expecting, something because they saw it treated as “normal” in a grade D sex flick they are not observing reality.

              It is iike one of those unfair double standards in our culture that men who indulge in a lot of causal sex are “studs” and yet women with a hearty sexual appetite are called “sluts”. (Although I rarely use the term other than as a term of endearment – just for raunchy fun.)

              However, the effect of Porn has, I think, been a desensitization toward the higher aspects of interaction between men and women on the sexual playing field – and as Lori pointed out there are a lot of unrealistic expectations that all women have, or should have, the same sexual tastes as a Porn Princess. Porn generally treats women as sexual objects rather than real 3 dimensional women. People are individuals. And to expect all women to have the tastes of a porn princess, who is a paid participant and may well not do something in her private life, does a disservice to both men and women. And I am casting disparagement upon no one. What people enjoy is what they enjoy and I am not particularly judgmental about anything consenting adults find entertaining. I do draw a line at expecting a woman to do anything sexual with which she is either uncomfortable or simply does not enjoy. Thus again we come back to porn and the images it presents becoming accepted as a “norm”.

              Here again I have to tread a fine line lest I subject myself to a legitimate charge of hypocrisy because some of things I enjoy could be considered a bit “edgy”, but I do not expect any given woman to share those tastes. The main point was that porn eliminates all of the higher attributes in favor of glorifying sex as the only end of sex. While sex for fun approximates that it is conducted between real people with real feelings. BIG difference. And yet as much fun as sex just for the fun of it is for it to be a true joy you have to engage in give and take and genuinely care about the other person as a person. And porn degrades that aspect in favor of just sex played to the lowest common denominator.

              I’m not saying that you need to swear undying devotion but you need to at least like her as a person or it degrades you both. And porn teaches uncaring animalistic sex. (And again I draw a distinction between raunchy fun and uncaring. Raunchy can be fun, but it is really only real fun with someone you like and treat with the respect you in turn expect.) Instead of “me, me, me,” it becomes “we, we, oui”.

              One of the problems in grappling with the subject is the complex interactions between people which makes this subject a veritable minefield. Thus conversations such as this are healthy and hopefully productive of more than just elevated hormones. Obvious play on words omitted. 😉

            • WP, I don’t think porn has created a more positive or relaxed attitude toward sex. And I’m not really sure why you do either. We certainly have a more permissibly sexualized culture. Sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s bad. But you may be giving pornography too much credit to believe it’s the source of our sexual expression. I would infact actually argue that porn is more of a source of sexual bondage than it is true sexual freedom. I once again reference the older man I talked to that made a distinction between the porn of today and the porn from the 70s that was much more light hearted and fun and wasn’t filled with breast implants and waxed vaginas.

            • I think the sexual freedom movement in the 60’s is a BIG reason why sexuality is far more open today, and more people are turning away from puritan style conservative religious values and finding their own. Religion was the number 1 restriction on sexuality, namely catholic and christian based religions in the west and they are seeing a major issue of finding believers. Porn simply grew in the already ever expanding market for sexuality, it didn’t cause sexual openness, it just exists because there IS sexual openness.

              Access to birth control also helps greatly too, and the ever closing gap of gender equality, more independence of the genders, etc.

            • I grew up never knowing porn existed until I started having significant relationships with men. It was a culture shock. Men had this whole world that they loved that I found was very uncaring toward women in a general way and clearly set these over the top unrealistic expectations. I was actually much happier with my body before I realized what men really wanted women to look like.

              Erin, I just have one question for you…a very logical and simple one.

              If porn is screwing up men’s expectations regarding what women should look like, then how can an average looking woman obtain sex partners more easily than an average looking man, in this pornified society that we live in?

            • Tim, for me, your question isn’t really that logical within the context of this discussion. I am not sure how us having a pornified culture, and we do have one, correlates to who more easily obtains sexual partners.

              Especially since I’ve been told by a number of men that men can often sleep with women they don’t much like, have respect for or even find attractive for the sake of simply wanting and desiring of sex.

              If average women can obtain sexual partners more easily than average looking men, I don’t see how that denies the fact that we infact have a porn culture, or the fact that men being a relationship with sex and porn way before they even start having it, or the fact that porn has become such a normalized part of today’s men’s lives that they are using it much more heavily than their fathers ever did, or the fact that men are increasingly putting pressures on their partners to be more pornstarish rather than truly encouraging women to simply be themselves.

            • I think that is right as long as there are other people out there who don’t like “flitzing” so the non-flitzer can have the opportunity for a satisfying relationship. But what of 95% of men (for example) have become accustomed to the idea that flitzing is essential to their sexual satisfaction? The non-flitzer may be forced to accept it because they have no alternative.

              I read an article awhile back in some magazine where a bunch of guys talked about how they could not consider a long term relationship with a woman who wouldnt have anal sex because they felt they would be “missing out.” Several expressed awareness that many women dislike it or find it painful, but they said they felt that women should put up with it to show their commitment to the relationship or their willingness to be sexually uninhibited or whatever. I have no idea if these attitudes are typical but the article was pretty scary. I also saw an article where a gynecologist at a college health center who said that she regularly gets questions from girls about how to make anal sex less painful. She said she never got those questions 10 years ago. Now, I know this is just anecdotal evidence but again, it seems scary to me. Also I know there are women who like anal sex (although I’ve never met one – every conversation I’ve had with friends on the topic, no one likes it but maybe that’s just my group of friends)

              If I had a boyfriend where everything was great but he said “I can’t stay in this relationship without anal sex” that would be a tough choice for me. Because the alternative is ending the relationship and trying to find someone else and maybe the next guy will give the same ultimatum!

            • I think that is right as long as there are other people out there who don’t like “flitzing” so the non-flitzer can have the opportunity for a satisfying relationship. But what of 95% of men (for example) have become accustomed to the idea that flitzing is essential to their sexual satisfaction? The non-flitzer may be forced to accept it because they have no alternative.

              If 95% of potential partners want flitzing, then a non-flitzer has a few choices: 1) Change their mind about flitzing; 2) Fake it, which involves engaging in flitzing while secretly resenting or disliking it; 3) Let flitzing be a dealbreaker, which limits their prospective sexual partners to that other 5%, which substantially lowers the number of potential partners, so could lead to prolonged or even permanent celibacy.

              Those are the alternatives I can think of. It seems like #1 is unlikely – certainly not something I’d condone trying to force someone to do if it’s not their own change of heart – and #2, while perhaps common, is a lousy way to have a trusting, fully connected sexual relationship. That leaves #3, which sucks, but just because it sucks does not mean the 95% are somehow at fault, regardless of what influenced them to crave flitzing in the first place.

              It’s easy to think of “flitzing” as some kink you find off-putting, but what if it’s something that’s both vanilla and popular, like having sex in the missionary position? That seems like something a high percentage of sexually active people would both like, and be reluctant or unwilling to give up altogether, doesn’t it? If you happen to be in a small minority of people who can’t stand missionary position sex, you’re stuck with the same set of alternatives as someone who’s disgusted by some particular kink. You can come around on it, fake it to satisfy what you think is a requirement, or live with the consequences of feeling strongly enough about it that it’s a dealbreaker with potential partners. Whether “flitzing” is some porn-popular kink that you hate, or some vanilla variant that happens to turn you off, being on the wrong side of the percentages is frustrating. The alternatives in that situation aren’t great, but they’re more realistic than thinking the other 95% have deviated from what sex should be and ought to share your craving/disgust for flitzing.

              Regarding your comments about anal, it’s hard for me to relate because like Archy, it’s never been a craving for me. Never tried it, never been with a partner who wanted to, and haven’t missed it. I avoid or skip over anal scenes in the porn I watch. If it’s really as common a requirement as you say, I guess that’s a generational difference. That said, I don’t find it inherently degrading for people who like it, and I’m not bothered that people who intend to engage in it are asking health professionals for tips on how to do it more safely and comfortably. Even though I’m not an anal sex enthusiast myself, I’m informed enough to have seen more than one “how-to” emphasizing the importance of lubrication, going slow, relaxing, etc, so if people have not followed such tips and find their forays into anal sex nothing but painful, I don’t see that as an automatic indictment of how terrible anal sex is. A bad hand-job can be very painful, too, but it doesn’t mean hand-jobs per se are always uncomfortable to the recipient.

              Regarding the hypothetical ultimatum about anal, what if you were to say you couldn’t stay in this relationship without receiving oral sex, but that just grosses him out? It would suck if that’s enough to end an otherwise good relationship, but would you be at fault for wanting it? Would you like it if he said no problem, did it while you dated to “keep from losing you”, and after marriage, gradually gave it up until you find out he never liked it? Such incompatibilities suck, but only because the likes/dislikes don’t match, not because the specific sex act in question is a perversion of healthy sexuality.

              Thanks for the interesting discussion. :)

            • I think for some of us, men and women, we do believe that sexuality is sometimes being perverted into something unhealthy. Due to the over exposure of porn, do to the nature of how most porn represents sex between men and women and do to the reality that porn largely caters toward a male. Which excludes making women partners in sex with men. Whenever one gender has a higher amount of control than the other, there is bound to be some abuse of power on their part. And that’s largely what you have with pornography when it comes to men and what they want to see or do with their own female partners. Lets be honest, a lot of things that go on in porn have NOTHING to do with pleasure for women despite the fact that the female *actresses* are paying the part of receiving nothing but pleasure. This is such a huge disconnection! It’s a huge disconnection when men more actively want to see or do sexual acts that aren’t really even going to bring their partner pleasure and often may even bring them pain of discomfort!

              I don’t think any of us don’t understand that people can have likes and dislikes. The issue is the expectations that men (not all men) are largely placing on their partners to have sex in ways that more align with pornography then their own individual sexuality. Does this mean that these men are horrible? No. But it does mean that something is happening that might not be so healthy after all. Not all things that feel good are always healthy.

              There use to be a line between porn and sex but in the past decade, that line has blurred and it’s almost like people can not talk or experience sex without some influence of porn.

              The reason that these articles crop up, is to deconstruct some of the influences that pornography seems to have on people’s sexuality. Influences that some women are experiencing first hand that go beyond just the over simplification of what we may individually like or dislike. And the truth is, pornography *does* have an influence over people’s sexuality to varying degrees. It would be virtually and humanly impossible for it to not considering the way our brains are wired and considering the fact that men largely begin looking at porn before they even have any real life sexual experience. And usually even way before they’ve even sexually matured of emotionally developed fully. And that is the exact problem some women are finding when it comes to sex and how men are choosing to approach sex.

              From what I gathered from your posts, you are not very interested in where someone’s sexual likes and dislikes originate from. But I am because I think it’s a key component in defining what really may be part of our natural repitore and what may be based on pushed ideas from outside sources like pornographers. I’ve seen this huge change in men through my relationships with them and through discussions with other women, and I don’t think it’s for the better.

              I can not express out desperate I am for men to try and understand what it’s like. To understand what it’s like to live in a world where a lot of men are very happy to commodify and objectify women on a daily basis and where they want women to either A)Also be okay with it B) Ignore that men want to commodify and objectify women on some level but still think that they are perfect guys that don’t need any changing. I don’t think a lot of men are largely understanding where it’s become normalized to make women large the recipients of hardcore abusive sexual acts for male pleasure and women are depicted as showing their abuse as something wonderful and pleasing. Where you have your own male partners push and ask for these sexual acts at increasingly higher levels. Or where you can watch and see your male partners pick out women on the internet like they were ice cream flavors and tell you that he doesn’t expect you to look like that because ya know, the women in porn are his *real* fantasy. Can you understand this? Do men have the ability to see why so much of this is troubling and can cause a level of disconnection between men and the average every day women men are stuck with being with instead of the porn goddesses men rather have?

              What I find interesting about your discussion is that you were eager to point out to me where I went wrong, what was my fault and how that I was to blame for what I accepted. And I was. But based on your comments, I don’t think you want to examine the other side to closely. The side that shows men’s relationship with porn and how men’s sexuality is changing because of that relationship. The things women are experiencing because of the information men are largely enjoying and carrying with them into the bedroom. The information that women are not to be truly respected and that a variety of women is better than any old one woman. You seem more shy and sensitive to the role men are playing in their own sexuality and their relationships through the influence of pornography and what pornography is teaching them about sexuality. You also seem focused on who is to *blame* and who shouldn’t be to *blame*. Such as how I was to *blame* for my actions but how the men in these relationships that women are relating their experiences to are not to *blame*. Maybe we can focus less on “blame” and more on the issues each gender may be experiencing.

            • If your partner treats you like shit, it’s up to you to leave or get them to change. If you continually reward their bad behaviour with your love, intimacy, sex, then you are directly helping them to stay the same way. If most men are treating women badly, then women need to get off their asses n ditch the bad men. I have a friend who went back to an abusive, rapist ex bf and had sex with him again….all she did was reinforce his behaviour, he KNOWS he got away with it, he KNOWS she’ll be back. Regardless of how tough her life is her actions are DIRECTLY supporting an abusive person and further strengthening his desire to remain abusive, cuz why would he change? People have a responsibility in life to only support good, wholesome people that treat others with respect. If you reward bad people then quite frankly you’re just supporting them to remain bad, it’s no different then paying them with money for their abusiveness really.

              When millions of women say no, we want sex to go like this then you will see a lot of men adapt and a middle-ground will be found, otherwise they end up single. People do this everyday, compromising to get what they want. Someone gives up porn to keep their partner, a partner gives up dating others to remain monogamous, lifestyles change to suit that particular couples needs. Hell some folk have to lower the number of hours they see friends to keep their partner happy.

              But seriously, who the hell is taking serious advice from most porn for how to have REAL sex? It’s as silly as looking to GTA to learn how to drive a car. Porn can be a basic guide but it’s pretty limited in it’s ability to teach especially since kinks are widely catered for as not everyone fantasizes about the same vanilla sex they get offline which in the real world can fully satisfy them but in fantasy land may become boring.

            • Erin

              The vast majority of men are happy enough to get plain old vanilla sex. What percentage of men are you talking about?….those who can push the boundaries of and can tell the women (presumably many) they date and have relationships with; that I want X Y or Z type of sex and if you’re not willing I can move on to another woman.

              What percentage of men are you talking about honestly.

            • wellokaythen says:

              Erin,

              You make some very good points here.

              I think there is something of a feedback or dialectic between porn and sex. Porn taps into pre-existing desires and expresses pre-existing desires, but over time it also shapes those desires, which then have an influence on porn, etc. Porn is a product of sexuality and a shaper of sexuality to some degree, like just about every part of the cultural side of sex. I think the whole thing is much more complicated than porn simply reprogramming men or porn simply being a reflection of what men already want. The truth is somewhere in the vast gray area between the two.

              I’m curious what you would define as “healthy” sexuality in contrast to the “perverted” forms that porn encourages. I can imagine some people, not sure if I’m one of them or not, would say that it’s somewhat arbitrary to call one form of sexuality healthy and another perverted. If it’s true that some things that feel good are completely unhealthy, then that might open to door to all sorts of repressions. Not too long ago oral sex was considered a horrible, unnatural, unhealthy perversion, and masturbation a sure route to a total mental and physical collapse.

              What some people might hear in your writing are echoes of those earlier ideas, even if that’s not what you’re really doing.

              I’m also curious if you have a different view towards what you might label as “erotica,” and if so where the difference lies between porn and erotica.

            • Lori Lothian says:

              Marcus, just plain great comments.

            • Tim – I don’t have a percentage to give you. But I do believe that more men than not have allowed pornography to influence their sexuality in some way.

              I speak from my own real life experiences and from the discussions I’ve held with other women and from the way I’ve also heard men talk about sex. I’m 32. I know what it’s like to be with men before the advent and the availability of porn on the internet. And I know what’s like to be with men with the increasingly hardcore and available porn that has become prominent on the internet. The things men will suggest or simply do to you while having sex, the things men will make casual or light of in regards to sexual acts that at one time, most certainly would have been considered abusive usually toward women, it’s astounding. And I’m not dating “bad” men. I’m dating regular guys. Regular guys that have jobs, love their Moms and don’t kick puppies. Men were so worried about women controlling their sexuality they failed to see how pornography has controlled their sexuality.

              I will also disagree that alot of men are infact not happy to just get plain old vanilla sex. (The fact that regular sex is even called “vanilla sex” bothers me actually.) Often the reasons I hear men site for looking at porn has to often do with “variety”. Variety in women, variety in sex acts. It’s not fun to know that no matter what you do for your guy, what ultimately matters to him is variety. Oh and lets not forget youth. I keep getting older but the kind of women the majority of men are looking at in porn aren’t. It’s a very nice and clear way men can jab the sword into us without feeling to bad about it since men like youth and fertility right? It’s all about the variety, youth and fertility.

              WellOkayThen:

              I think what your trying to say in the first part of your comments is to akin to is porn imitating life or is life imitating porn. Yeah, I can agree with that. But what a lot of people seem to forget that for the porn producers who are making porn, it’s not just about making sex or providing a wonderful, free, sexual expression and outlet for men. It’s first about making the money. And the producers will create what a they can to draw in attention. What usually draws attention? Shock value in combination with seeing something new and exciting. So porn isn’t even only just about sex and desire. It has an entire other element that is motivated more by money than it really is motivated by sex. Men might be motivated to look at porn because of sex. But the people who make porn are motivated by money to make it and what will get them the most money.

              I think “healthy” sexuality is really hard to define. But I do think “healthy” sexuality is anything that does not alienate the people involved in it. I also think “healthy” sexuality supports a true exchange and communication between two people that goes beyond bodily functions. That doesn’t mean there has to be love between them but sex should be a communication of different feelings and sensations that go beyond the robotics of bodily functions. I think it would be much more easy to see what our true sexuality really was if we could grow up without over exposure to material that is really just created by a limited amount of the population for a largely male audience. both men and women would be able to really see and figure out what they liked free of influence. But that is obviously not something that’s going to happen.

              Since porn is largely made to cater to men, it largely leaves women out of the exchange and discussion. Often times what we have is a culture where men want to show women what they enjoy through porn and then very well may ask or suggest to do the things they see in porn. Does that mean a woman can’t also enjoy things just because it was something shown in porn? No. But culturally we tend to forget who porn is largely made for and how that it excludes us real, ordinary regular women that neither want to be pitted up against porn stars or want to sit by our man while he lusts after porn stars. We wants to be included in a way that really truly includes us. Not in a way where we are being show a masculine fantasy of young, thin, breast implanted playmates that make us question our own femininity.

              It is simply true that not everything that feels good is good. That’s the reason why you either choose to do drugs or you don’t. Drugs aren’t really good for you but they do make you feel good. Is it repression to believe this? I don’t think so at all. Will it cause repression by practicing self control to not indulge certain whims, again it doesn’t have to.
              Yeah, I get what your saying about oral sex. And today, it’s not uncommon for oral sex to instead be about a man stabbing his penis so far deep into a woman’s throat that she is choking on it. It’s not uncommon to hear about a woman being, slapped, choked, called names or engage in other forms of abuse for sexual pleasure in pornography. believing that oral sex was a sure route to total mental and physical collapse is certainly unhealthy. But we’ve seemed to swing the pendlum so far to the other side, that oral sex today is more about how you can abuse a woman’s mouth then actually enjoying the pleasure of what she is giving a man. There seems to be an awful lot of male anger toward women that is displayed through the sexualization and pornography.

          • So… women pushed for a sexual revolution, got it, and now we have “free sex for all.” A generation later and men have adapted, and are finally able to get the kind of sex they want from women, under the terms the desire, and women are angry for it? Something about “be(ing) careful what you wish for” seems appropriate here.

            • I don’t think women pushed for the porn revolution. That’s mostly run by men, for men.

            • I don’t know how I could have been any clearer. Women pushed for the sexual revolution and got it. The “porn revolution” is just a natural adaption to that. A lot of women here seem angry that men’s sexual desires are out of the bag and in the open now, but that’s a natural evolution of a free sex society. You can’t have a society that says only men or only women are allowed to freely express themselves sexually. You have to accept both sides of the equation, whether you’d like to or not.

            • I think women pushed for the right to be considered equal to men. I am not sure I live in a society where women are truly considered equal to men still. Although we certainly have more rights than we use to.

              Regardless, I think most people understand that the world is always in adaptation. We are always (hopefully) evolving toward a more quality future. I don’t think the current sexual haze we are in, in society, is healthy for either men or women. I also don’t think men are all that *free* when it comes to porn, even if some men believe they are *free* from real women.

              Are men finally getting what they want anymore than women? I think this website proves that alot of us aren’t infact getting what we want, men or women, sexually or not.

              All in all though, even if one group was getting what they wanted, I would hope that they would still want to be partners, make compromises, work out issues and try to connect to the other group.

              But if it makes you happier to think women are now getting their “just deserts”, I guess that’s your right. I just A) Don’t see how that is healthy or B) see how that really makes *you* happier.

            • I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not a student of feminist history, but every feminist I know has asserted at some point that the patriarchy is responsible for the repression of women’s sexuality and that a free sex society is a direct strike against patriarchy. One only has to read back through the comments of this article and others like it on GMP to see this idea in action. I never said that there weren’t men who supported the push towards a free sex society; that idea seems ridiculous on its surface, since surely there are many men who benefit from the current arrangement. But it’s been repeated here and many times before, by feminists, that feminists were the ones who made the initial push.

              I’m not advocating for or against anything pushed in the article. I’m only trying to point out that there are no biological free rides. There will always have to be some give and take, and part of that means recognizing for as much as we all benefit from a free sex society, there are also some real downsides as well. Sure we have more access to sex than ever before, but for many *good* sex is still impossibly hard to find. I just take issue with the fact that most of the blame for this transformation in society is leveled against men, when it’s clear that women have played a large role in this as well.

              Ultimately men and women are both responsible for the current state of affairs, and it will only be resolved by men and women coming together to work towards a better future. Yeah, we get it: feminists, and many other types of women, hate porn. But none of the regular male readers of GMP create porn, and I’d be willing to bet that almost none of us are acting out the any of the sex acts described in this article. Articles like these, and the inevitable stream of anti-porn comments that will follow, just put men on the defensive; derailing any real attempt towards a common resolution right from the start.

            • Actually both men and women were oart of tge sexual revolution. Research to develop the birth control pill was pushed by early feminist Margaret Sanger. Women’s willingness to engage in casual sex changed forever with reliable, discreet birth control. But then you also had men like Hugh Hefner and Larry Flynt pushing an agenda of sexual liberation and openness about sex through porn. You also had millions of young people in the 60’s who were mostly apolitical who just liked the idea of having sex. You had TV shows in the 70’s like 3’s Company and The Love Boat joking about sex in a way that pushed boundaries of middle America. I could go on and on. Anyway I don’t think you can say that feminists are solely responsible for the sexual revolution.

            • I’d like to register some limited disagreement. First, before it kills me, Hugh Hefner is an amoral wretch, and Larry Flynt is a pig. Ahhh, I feel much better now. Okay, with that out of the way. Margaret Sanger was also a pig. If you actually read what she wrote, rather than what her apologists say she wrote, it quickly becomes clear that she was not so much into liberating women from bondage to their ovaries, but that she was pushing a eugenics agenda. The main targets of her spleen were what she wrote about as “garbage populations” which she wished to see reduced. In particular she was a racist and regarded blacks as inferiors to be eliminated.

              However, looking at the revolution that transpired, beginning in the 1960’s, yes, the availability of birth control had a lot to do with it. Freed from the fear of an unwanted pregnancy women were left able to explore their sexuality. I not passing judgement against that, but feminism, “movement feminism”, was, and has been, dominated to no small degree by lesbians. While I believe in freedom of choice (and in behavior between consenting adults) that sexual preference/orientation also brings along some baggage which found itself expressed in feminist writing and ideology. Ideology that has been acted out upon in the real world.

              On one level you can find a philosophy of sexual liberation (or libertinism, as the case may be) but you can also find darker threads when you start picking the yarn apart. One of the problems with a large degree of lesbian dominance in movement feminism resulted in was a push for greater sexual liberty intertwined with a hatred of men, and the strong thread of misandry runs prominent through feminist writing.

              While Hefner and Flynt (along with other changes in the culture) no doubt had a strong influence on where we are now I think feminism was the most potent force as it enabled the rest to flower by diminishing the worth of men, and by treating women’s sexual freedom and pleasure as of tantamount importance and gentlemanly behavior became classified as “sexism” or “male chauvinism”. It isn’t that women did not have legitimate grievances, both then and now, but that freedom for women was also equated with freedom from men – any man and all men.

              The question unaddressed in feminist literature, because of the “liberation” agenda for lesbians, was where lies the balance point? That is at what point does liberation become libertine and license? And I would suggest that the omission was a combination of intentional combined with deep seated pathos and prejudice. And that my dear may be laid directly at the feet of feminism.

              Who killed gentlemanly behavior as an expected norm? Feminism. Railing against gentlemanly behavior as sexism and chauvinism and insisting upon “sexual equality” resulted in a cheapening of the dialogue. Men and women may well be intellectual equals but the fundamental differences in cultural orientation, desires, and focus mean that they are complements not an identity as movement feminism has tried to insist.

              It is not that our society was too repressed upon the subject of sexuality, although I think it was, but that one form of repression replaced another. Thankfully, some, largely hetero, feminists have begun to see the conflict between ideology and reality. They have even begun to “get” that not all men want to spend their days raping women and are much happier to join with a woman as friends and equals and not just as, a term I despise, “Sex Partners”. Not that I have anything against sex. Can’t we all just get along? :-)

            • Hank Vandenburgh says:

              I have a different historical remembrance. Hefner was partly liberatory, but his notions were patriarchal, personally self-serving, and consumeristic– so it would be the male who would be liberated, and women would be liberated enough to have sex. That’s it. Flynt was much worse. One of his covers showed a woman being forced into a meat grinder– truly misogynistic. I do think that there’s always been a sex-positive strain in feminism– but there’s a stronger sex-negative one. (We shouldn’t be surprised– that’s exactly what biological theories would predict.) Lesbians tend to be as sex-negative as anyone. They are for example staunch defenders of monogamy for the most part. There is some research that shows that lesbians may have more sophisticated sex, however. In dyads. The current irony is a slightly sex-negative culture where women are asking for autonomy and trying to lock in Victorian protections at the same time. I respect the first idea, but the second is in my mind bringing back the “dark ages” of repression and misinformation about sex.

            • wellokaythen says:

              Mostly in reply to Hank’s comment above:

              What’s often forgotten is that in the McCarthyist mindset of the 1950’s, just about any deviation from a narrowly defined sex/family role was easily branded as perverted, subversive, and degenerate. (For McCarthy’s followers, those were also the characteristics of subversives, communists, Democrats, and anyone with an Ivy League education.)

              In fact, under the logic of 1950’s era sexual conformism, any man who was not married by a certain age was probably gay, even Hugh Hefner! Even heterosexual men who were thought of as “oversexual” like Hefner was might be branded as a “sex pervert,” which was a more common expression than “gay.” Hefner’s overt rejection of some norms led not a few Americans to assume that he was probably gay – a lot of people thought in 1955 that a man who hasn’t settled down, gotten married, and had children is probably gay, no matter how many women he has sex with. In 1953 the State Department had a massive purge of personnel, including “any oversexualized man or woman.”

            • WP – the belief that Feminism was or is dominated by lesbians is akin to the belief that all feminists are hairy, ugly harpies. It’s a popular myth to hypothesize about but not rooted in real fact. There are many famous feminists that were heterosexual. Although I will agree that there is some fluidity to the idea of misogyny in some feminist principal. However, good feminism doesn’t prescribe to that. Even within religion, there are those that use their religious beliefs for good and others that use it for evil.

              Women began their journey into feminism, and thus liberation, way before birth control became available. And even way before World War II put women in the work force.

              As for “gentlemanly behavior”, what really is “gentlemanly behavior”? Was it “gentlemanly” that women couldn’t own property? Was it “gentlemanly” that it was widely acceptable for men to have mistresses and it was kept hush-hush out of the good old boy code, but women were given the scarlett letter for doing the same? Men might have been opening more doors and laying their coats in more puddles back then but how much did men really respect women?

              By the way, I don’t think Feminism railed against gentlemanly behavior. I think Feminism railed against inequality.

              Although I do agree with you that men and women tend to be more complements of each other than they are a unisex, homogeneous group.

        • wellokaythen says:

          [Not sure where to put this comment. Wait, don’t answer that….]

          There’s something really fascinating going on here with this article and many of the comments. Here’s an analysis of porn that judges it based on how realistically it shows women’s sexual pleasure. That’s sort of odd, if you think about it. The porn that’s made for a hetero male audience is made in order to please male viewers. It’s about hetero male fantasies. Whether these scenarios really turn on women who aren’t being paid to pretend, or not, is in a real sense beside the point.

          It’s also fascinating to me that in virtually every bit of porn made for straight men, the female characters have an orgasm or so much pleasure to be virtually orgasmic. It’s not universal, because there’s really nothing totally universal in the world of porn, but that seems to be by far the most common thing in straight male porn – the female characters (if rarely the actresses themselves) loudly enjoy the whole experience. It’s even less central than a male character’s pleasure – I’ve certainly seen my fair share of “girl-on-girl” scenes in which no man ever appears at all, and those certainly…um…work.

          The central fantasy of most straight male porn is not any particular kind of sex or any particular source of pleasure or any particular way that a woman looks. Hard as it is for many women to imagine, those things are generally secondary to the main fantasy in porn. The central fantasy is of a woman who ecstatically enjoys exactly what you have to offer and is ready to have sex with very little preamble. From that central fantasy flows all the other sub-fantasies on the list. (And by “fantasies” I’m not saying they are all totally untrue and no woman ever enjoys them. I just mean fantasy in terms of imagination.)

          As for the cunnilingus bit, it seems like generally good advice, from my limited experience as someone without a clitoris, to err on the side of slow and gentle. It is possible to be too gentle or too slow, but that’s much, much rarer than starting with too much of the opposite. As a very general rule, it’s easier and better to build up to something than to have to reduce something – an additive process works better than a subtractive process. And, frankly, think of your own experience as the person giving cunnilingus — consider which of the following you would prefer to hear:

          A) “that’s it” “harder!” “faster!”

          or

          B) “Ow!” “not so hard!” “not so fast!”

          Call me a sentimental old vanilla fool, but I prefer hearing A).

          Bear in mind that sex techniques you see in porn are arranged so that the camera can get a clear shot. “Photogenic” and “pleasurable” may be mutually exclusive in a lot of cases.

      • ogwriter says:

        @Lori: So, when my girlfriend holds my head tightly to her crotch and her cum spills into my mouth, into my eyes, drips down my chin and gets into my hair, and my tongue is cramping, that’s not good? That’s not the same as me cuming on he face? Please.
        The truth is, people are doing far more sexually than what is mentioned in this article. It seems like some women are trying to position themselves as sexually conservative prudes because it maintains the myth about women being less interested in and more moral sexually than men are.
        The acts you mention are vanilla compared to the many,many sexual acts people are engaged in. Have we never read Dan Savage or Xavier Hollander?
        It was a woman who first asked me to cum on her face. When I didn’t-I kept forgetting-she broke up with me because she said we were sexually incompatible. According to her, cuming on he face symbolized that she was my “slut”.

    • Alyssa

      There is no such thing as a “real woman” in such a way that implies a single set of values and ideas. Personally I like 4 out of 5 of those thing, and don’t really mind the other at all, so…… Does that make me unreal?

      The point is that most men are not amazing / attractive enough to get women to do some of these things mentioned here. Yeah, I know that for my good looking friend who is a struggling male model, some of these acts constitute normal parts of his sex life but its not for every guy.

      The problem with porn is that it plays with the expectations of the common man who finds it hard just to obtain plain vanilla sex. It doesnt do anything to help men in their prospects to find sex and relationships with women.

      So to answer your question ‘does that make YOU unreal? No. But it does make the men, you do these acts with, unreal.

    • There is no such thing as a real woman or man, individuals are all we are. We like different things and do things differently, if we was all the same it would be a boring place in deed. Although I question your comments “Have you ever posted a real man image on facebook?” because it works both ways. I know I’ve posted real woman pics to counteract my friends posting real man filth, but I mainly did that to prove a point and be a smartass lol.

      If you was to spend some time in kink you would problay see things differently. I’ve come to learn that everyone has different turn on’s and off. I’ve met men that enjoy being submissive to females and females that enjoy being submissive to men and everything inbetween. Everyone has their own turn ons and offs. Some of the things written in this story I’ve seen as peoples turn ons, both men and women…. Anyway my point mainly is you are right. No such thing as a real woman or man. (but you left the man thing out)

  24. So, so, so very true. To number 1 I might like to add hocking a loogie ANYWHERE on her body. Like number 1, a submissive might very well disagree, but for the most part: ask before dumping a bodily function on her face.

  25. AnthonyZarat says:

    “… real-life women …”

    The whole point is for men to avoid having to take the awful risks that come with associating with “real life women.” Most relationships end, and if they end badly, the absolute inbalance in legal power between men and women makes it unwise for men to form bonds with women.

    Would you date men if doing so gave your partner absolute power to set fire to your life, igniting a legal nightmare from which you would likely never wake?

  26. This article just doesn’t jive with my experience at all. First, the obvious: good “real life” sex is incredibly boring to watch on-screen. And on the flip-side, porn-style sex can be pretty boring to have in real life. I know plenty of men a ton of porn, but who still seem to enjoy pretty healthy sex lives. It’s insulting to see that the author thinks we’re not smart enough to distinguish between porn and real life.

    Besides, in my experience and those of my male friends, it’s young women who are driving the push towards the more degrading aspects of real-life sex. My first experience with bondage, anal sex, rough sex, facials, and role-playing were all driven by an ex-girlfriend or lover who specifically asked for or initiated those things. One of my best friends had never even heard of the pornstar James Deen until his girlfriend told him he was her favorite pornstar, and that she wished he’d be more aggressive like Deen. A lot of women here clearly feel threatened by porn, and that’s understandable… but porn is just fantasy. The fact that there are women out there watching porn, engaging in porn-style sex, and enjoying it that’s the much bigger threat. Not sure what you’re going to do about that one.

    • Lori Lothian says:

      @DD

      You said: “It’s insulting to see that the author thinks we’re not smart enough to distinguish between porn and real life.”

      I know so many girlfriends over the years and my own experiences, that say some men who watch porn do transfer over to real life the porn formula. I’m glad to hear you are not one of them.

      “Besides, in my experience and those of my male friends, it’s young women who are driving the push towards the more degrading aspects of real-life sex. My first experience with bondage, anal sex, rough sex, facials, and role-playing were all driven by an ex-girlfriend or lover who specifically asked for or initiated those things.”

      i am curious if you have a demographic on this? I hear women in their 20s are often emulating hard core porn. My generation, not so much.

      • Well I’m 22 years old and believe me, many girls my age watch porn. And many kinds of porn, straight, gay porn, lesbian porn. Of course majority of them dont talk about their porn interest in public, but I know my ex watch porn and she said many of her friends watch porn too.

        And do you think many women dont expect their men to have rough and BSDM sex like Christian Grey???? I really2 doubt porn only have bad effects on men.

        • Hi John
          You write:
          ✺”And do you think many women dont expect their men to have rough and BSDM sex like Christian Grey???? I really2 doubt porn only have bad effects on men.”✺

          Of course porn influence women when they use it.
          If women had studies ancient wisdom about good lovemaking that exist in for example some Asian and Arab cultures it had shaped us and influenced us in an other direction.

      • Hi Lori

        Many women here are talking about men who push women’s sexual boundaries. I know that many women do come across such men. But I was wondering if there is common denominator here. Is this something a particular kind of man is more likely to do to women?

        I’m not speaking of relationships and marriages. I think that’s a different thing when a man urges his wife or long term gf to do something . I was married for 5 years and my ex wanted me to try anal. I told him I was uncomfortable with it and he didn’t bother me after that. But I can understand some women’s relationship dynamics can be different and feel coerced to please their husbands, bow down to their sexual demands. I know women who do that and they get blackmailed in some way.

        But you say it also happens in early stages of dating and hooking up. And that’s what really surprises me. Firstly don’t you think its good they brought it up early so you know you’re sexually incompatible and you can move on to men who don’t push your sexual boundaries?

        Many women I know say it happened to them. But they say it usually happens with the guys who are very charming and attractive. the ones we may have a crush on or trying to impress and keep him interested. We feel pressure to please them so he will stick around. But they can get other women so easily and tend to be upfront and selfish about their demands in sex without fearing negative reaction from us. And if a different type of men tried to do that we would simply be very clear about our boundaries with them, no?

        This is a good article about a woman’s experience with such men. She labels them “charming sexual predators.”

        http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2012-05-creepy-guys-arent-always-sexual-predators

  27. Thank you for the article. It pretty much confirms what I had already concluded. Porn, most porn, is formulaic drivel and bears as much resemblance to real sex as a Monster Truck does to a Family Sedan. I am not above enjoying it in small doses for amusement from time to time but it is fantasy not reality. There are a few movies out there that rise to the level of erotic cinema, but they are way too few and become notable by their exception. I think what little I do enjoy in “mainstream porn” is the occasional inventive lead in and seduction, but then it generally moves into fomula of fellatio, followed by quick cunnilingus followed by frenzied activity in 4 or 5 positions with obligatory facial at the end. The repetitive formula very rapidly becomes boring. Besides it is meant to be a participant sport.

    As for your specific points:
    1) Ejaculating on her face is a huge turn on. NOT! And it doesn’t do anything for me either.

    2) Cunnilingus should be a short-lived but rough tongue-lashing. – I guess it is a matter of taste (I’m sorry I couldn’t resist) :-) However if you really care about a girl it should be long slow and pleasantly teasing with varying rhythms , but then I had a good instructoress. I know I enjoy it much more when she is enjoying it much more (and I truly love it). Watching Porn may help, but better by watching a girl doing it as generally, in porn, it is closer to what it should be.

    3) Having a cock slap her face is orgasmic. What’s up with that? What I would expect in real life is a slap in my own face if I tried it.

    4) Women wear high heels to bed for pleasure. How awkward. Get rid of them and give her a nice foot massage. Kiss the top of her feet (toe sucking is a matter of preference and my vote is – yeccccch!).

    5) A woman wants to lick the dick that has just been in her ass. How gross. And don’t place it anywhere else until you’ve washed up. It is a good way for a girl to get Vaginitis if you continue with normal intercourse after anal. Have a little thought for her guys.

    While something a little daring can be spicy how anyone could regard most porn as a “guide to lovemaking” is beyond me. But then I am an incurable romantic too.

    • Lori Lothian says:

      ” Porn, most porn, is formulaic drivel and bears as much resemblance to real sex as a Monster Truck does to a Family Sedan. ” Love this line. Thank you!

    • wellokaythen says:

      If a man wants to try something he saw in a porn movie, there are actually several possible explanations for this.

      One explanation could be that he thinks that’s what “real sex” is like or that it’s what “all women like.” Could be that’s the case.

      Or, it could be that he finds that particular scenario pleasurable in its own right. Just because he got the idea from porn doesn’t mean that he assumes it’s common or assumes that you must like it just because the woman on the screen liked it. Maybe he likes the idea himself because it turns him on, which is why he wants to try it. He may be hoping that you might enjoy it, which is not the same thing as assuming you’re exactly like the women in porn. If I’m a little disappointed that my partner is not interested in a particular activity, that does NOT mean that I assume that I’m normal and she isn’t or that I think I’m liberated and she’s uptight.

      There’s a rush to judgment in this article and elsewhere in the comments. Just because a man wants to try something doesn’t mean that he assumes his partner will absolutely love it. It may even be a little arrogant for women to assume that he assumes this.

      It is possible to negotiate a mutually pleasurable sexual relationship in which the partners occasionally do some things that aren’t all that pleasurable, in the interest of the larger exchange of pleasure. Not every part of every person’s sex life has to be orgasmically pleasurable at every moment. If a face shot does not turn on the recipient, for lack of a better word, is that a reason to not ever consent to it and not ever to request it?

      Could it be possible to do something with a man that he enjoys that you don’t? Would that always be a bad thing in every case?

      Clearly most men are able to distinguish between porn and real life. We are clearly able to look at porn and recognize that it is not a good representative cross-section of the world of sex. If we couldn’t, then we would all assume that all men have 9-10 inch penises and have prodigious powers of erectile endurance. Somehow many of us manage to ignore THOSE porn exaggerations….

      • Hi Wellokthen
        You write:

        ✺”Could it be possible to do something with a man that he enjoys that you don’t? Would that always be a bad thing in every case?”✺

        Lots of women try to please their man and make him happy sexually and do things he wants that does not arose them,feel good or feel right.

        The problem is that if you do not respect your own borders, sex can eventually feel unpleasant or even worse it can turn you off that man for good.

  28. wellokaythen says:

    The sex moves and positions are not even the most unrealistic part. What about all the flimsy plot lead-ups to the actual sex?

    I was never a cable guy or a postman, but I was a pizza delivery driver for a few years. That porn cliche about sexy, horny women seducing the guy who comes to their door on business, leading to spontaneous sex? Not once. Not even close. And I was in great shape back then. I did deliver to a pimp one time, which is an even more sobering dose of reality.

  29. Hi everybody !

    Here is today’s The Guardian with an interesting article about porn,and reseach on porn.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2013/jun/16/internet-violent-porn-crime-studies

    • “Rape Crisis South London carried out simple research that involved typing “free porn” into Google and then quantified the results: 86% of sites that came up advertised videos depicting the rape of under-18s, 75% involved guns or knives, 43% showed the woman drugged, and 46% purported to be incest rape.”

      About 403,000,000 results (0.15 seconds)

      So Rape Crisis South London reviewed 450 million websites? BULLLLLLLSSSHIITTT. The first page of websites are the “youtube”‘s of internet porn and have a wide variety of stuff. I’d like them to explain to me why I can easily go watch thousands of non-violent movies if it’s so prevalent? THe only time I’ve seen violent porn is very rarely and usually you have to search for it, even then it was just bdsm which I found very boring n went back to the typical man and woman have your average everyday sex, stuff I’ve done before but can’t atm due to lack of partner.

      I have zero issue with people banning depictions of rape etc, and limiting the simulated or bdsm style violence but don’t lie about your studies. It’s impossible to say 86% of the sites on google “free porn” are whatever because it’s 450 MILLION SITES!!!

      • Archly
        You are young,and have knowledge about computers and the Internet .
        I am sure you are aware that you and I will get up different things on our screen when we search?
        Because Google look for things to come up with ,similar to what we have searched and watched before. So if you Archy love vanilla porn,and use all your time with vanilla. Google will give you that.

        You know all this better than me.

        I think it is great that they review reseach on porn,and also find out how to reseach what using porn does to us and especially how it affects children. Now children as young as 6 years old watch porn.
        And watching porn is not the same for a 6 year old,as sharing bedroom with its parents and occactionlly see sex.

        I look forwards to results.
        And think we need a regulation.

  30. Now, I’m sure some people out there like the things on this list. I think the big problem with American porn is how crude and gonzo it has become, yet! there is a backlash. Because now, so-called female friendly porn and art porn are gaining a lot of attraction, which is great. I would never look down on anything legal that consensual adults like to do, but my goodness, porn needs to be a lot more holistic than it is now. There’s enough room for everything from realistic instruction to sensual eroticism to the gonzo. And in the end, dudes, don’t just assume, ask and explore, and learn multiple techniques (ST:TNG fans will get that one.)

  31. I don’t like how you imply everyone is the same as you in the bedroom. Maybe you should get out more. Join the real world, the one where its not all about you.

    I’ve been activly involved in kink for years and met many people in to many different things, some I find attractive while others I hate with a passion. But I don’t sit around writing stories about them saying “its wrong because I don’t like it and the entire world is about me”.

    You are damaging to sexual liberation everywhere and should be ashamed at attempting to group everyone in to your own morals and turn ons.

  32. M.J. O. says:

    interesting, wouldn’t say 100% accurate, but interesting… my first thought is… as usual… What?!… i don’t know ANY guys with this kind of attitude and we tend to talk about stuff… That in and of it’self may explain the issue, the guys i know tend to talk… i like porn, i am VERY picky about it, responses needs to feel real, and it needs to be very intense… so I end up assessing a lot of borderline or full on D/s Scenes, (something that i’m comfortable in Real life with as well), Most if not all of these things are domination signals…. and ANY type of willing dominance MUST be talked about. That said it’s not just up tot he guys, if ladies don’t like rougher more extreme sex that is completely fine, but what about guys who can’t get a good response from the soft fluffy stuff Do they get any room? communication NEEDS to be both ways and completely honest… usually you can find a mid ground ( being a bit of a hard dom and having had Vanilla partners, if we could you can), but that has to come from both sides. if he ( or she) needs more extremity, and their partner needs a more candles and bubble bath moment then you need to talk about it.

  33. elizabeth says:

    There are some women here, and I know some amongst my friends, who are threatened by porn. It makes me sad! I think so much of that sense of threat is caused by social conditioning that tells us women we aren’t allowed to explore our own lust, our own wants, and our own responsibilities for pursuing those things. We must always remain the passive princess in the tower. Of course anything that appeals to our baser natures would be a threat. We aren’t supposed to have them.

    As a result, we miss out on so much. With a respectful partner (and most men are, don’t be fooled by the few who aren’t) exploring those boundaries can lead to incredibly physically *and* emotionally satisfying experiences.

    Men and women do get ideas from porn. But I’m not so sure that those of us who do then expect everything in the bedroom to go the same way it does on our computer screens. Porn is fantasy. The bedroom is real. Someone above had a great comment about the fact that what men are responding to is the fantasy, the willingness, the moment. Ladies, I really don’t think this means we all have to go turn ourselves into 20 year old bleached, shaved, spray tanned fembots. If there is a lesson to be learned from men’s interest in porn, I think it’s that of the interested woman- the one who likes to explore boundaries.

    I’m not suggesting at any level that anyone- man or woman- should do something unwillingly. But we may want to drop some of the fear, and approach porn as an extravagant kind of menu- a list of things we could try or not.

    • Ladies, I really don’t think this means we all have to go turn ourselves into 20 year old bleached, shaved, spray tanned fembots. If there is a lesson to be learned from men’s interest in porn, I think it’s that of the interested woman

      Exactly. I dont know where this idea that women have to look like perfect looking creatures for sex bcos men are watching porn, come from.

      Any sexually active woman knows that men are very forgiving to women on looks. Even average looking really fat women can have plenty of good looking men for sex partners. If anything its women who require men to be good looking for sex.

      • “If anything its women who require men to be good looking for sex.”
        Oh hell yes!

        COMMENT OF THE YEAR!

        • Hi Archy
          Confidence is what attracts us more than looks.
          Do you think sumo wrestlers in Japan lack women ?
          They are large men,but confident.

          • They’re also high status and rich. Do you think if you take the same man n woman, similar looks, sent them to get casual sex somehow that they’d come back with equal numbers? I guarantee the woman will find more partners.

          • “Confidence is what attracts us more than looks.
            Do you think sumo wrestlers in Japan lack women ?
            They are large men,but confident.”

            Yeah and Ryan Gosling, Brad Pitt, Channing Tatum, Twilight movie stars, One DIrection , popular among women and girls because they are confident, not because they are good looking right?

            Give me a break.

            Give me example of young girls who crazy for fat ugly guys who are confident. Its all over the world. In my country in Asia, girls go crazy for korean boy band just like . Yeah they like them because they are confident not because they are cute and handsome right?
            Women attracted to looks and confidence just like men attracted to looks and confidence. Its no secret anymore

            The formula that describe men only go for looks while women only go for personality is old and rubbish.

      • Elizabeth, I’m not sure why you’re sad because other women are threatened by porn. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a woman who very well may be threatened by porn. I don’t think the woman that isn’t threatened by porn is necessarily more evolved than the woman that is threatened by it. I think all that means is that these women see porn differently. Infact, how do you know when a woman is threatened by porn vs a woman who simply doesn’t like porn for x,y or z reasons? Why would you be sad just because someone saw something different from you?

        I also think exploring our own lust, wants, and desires can be a positive thing. But these things don’t have to be explored only one way. Porn is not the only way to explore these things. It may not even be the best or most productive way to explores these things. I actually think real life human beings are probably way more creative than anything porn could prescribe for us.

        I also don’t think anyone is disputing the idea of porn as fantasy. But the reality is that one reason people DO infact get sexually turned on by seeing porn is because there is INFACT a part of them that is buying into what is going on, on the screen. Have you ever seen a really campy horror or action movie? Where the effects are so unrealistic that you laugh or have no reaction or feeling at all to what is happening in the movie because it’s so unrealistic? Now think of the reaction someone will have to porn? They get turned on right? They are attracted to what they see right? There is a part of them that is buying enough into the fantasy to have both a physical and emotional reaction to it. Infact, science shows that are brains do not actually distinguish between what we physically do in the real world and the pleasure we get from what we see others do visually. It’s the reason sports fans get so excited watching their team. By association of watching the visual of the sport being played, inside their minds, they feel like they are playing too. It’s actually a much deeper and complicated discussion then simply the old : “Porn is just fantasy”, standard over-done comment.

        If you want to approach porn as a menu there to give you ideas about what you should or shouldn’t be interested, that’s fine. Personally, I rather discover those things on my own for myself completely independent from someone else’s usually hyper-masculine ideal is. The reality is that porn does leave an impression about how something should look or be. Even if we all logically know it’s fantasy. And while I don’t think all men expect all women to be 20 year old bleached, shaved or sprayed tanned fembots, the fact that this stereotype does exist in porn very strongly gives women a HUGE message about what men idealize or want the most over simply truly and honestly appreciating women as they are.

        Julia, I think the idea where women have to look like perfect creatures for sex came from was a lot of hyper-masculine media that tends to focus on a stereotypical idea held in general among all of us. Hence Elizabeth’s very own use of describing the 20 year old bleached, shaved and spray tanned fembots that each one of us is very familiar with as representing a kind of idealized epitome of female beauty in our culture.

        • Hi Erin

          Thank you for expressing so well what many of us feel and think about porn.

        • “By association of watching the visual of the sport being played, inside their minds, they feel like they are playing too. It’s actually a much deeper and complicated discussion then simply the old : “Porn is just fantasy”, standard over-done comment.”

          Post the proof please, because this sounds like utter rubbish. I watched porn earlier today, my penis did not enter another person, I watched real people having sex via a video stream but I did not feel like I was “playing too”, I never have because…omg I must be unique…I can tell it’s not real? You can get involved to some degree but if you do not realize that you aren’t actually participating in the activity onscreen then you need serious help.

          “They are attracted to what they see right? There is a part of them that is buying enough into the fantasy to have both a physical and emotional reaction to it.”
          That’s because of visual stimulation. An image is a visual depiction of a real person, a silly horror movie is fake because we have the intelligence to understand it is fake. We laugh because of the sillyness but guess what, Drama movies make HEAPS of people cry, that requires a HUGE level of empathy to connect with that person in the story because we can partially enter our minds into a story and be open to it. We can enjoy the movie but anyone with any intelligence understands it is a story, we can empathize with a character, be turned on by a character, but we still know it’s fake. Enjoyment taken from watching a game is extremely different to playing it, where is the sensation of your hand on the ball? Or your foot kicking it? Wheres the bloody nose n bruises when the tackles hit? Humans may derive pleasure from visual stimulation but any human that cannot tell the difference between porn and reality needs major help, or is so severely stunted in growth if they are not a kid that they really shouldn’t be watching it.

          There are plenty of women who get turned on by rape fantasies, does that mean they actually want to be raped? Part of them is buying into it, doesn’t mean they want it in reality. This is an extremely concept to grasp, things that are taboo can be sexy in FANTASY but can be absolutely disgusting or a major turn off in reality. Some straight men watch gay porn yet do not fantasize about real men they see, some women dream of being raped n beaten n what not and that gets them aroused yet the reality would be horrifying and they don’t want the reality. I like the James Bond fantasy yet it’s a miserable life to live. We can enjoy things that are fake but look realistic, or things others have done, doesn’t mean that is what we actually want in reality. Some like watching orgies yet are monogymous in their relationship and would never participate in one. That’s the strange thing about sexuality, it doesn’t follow our REAL attraction 100%, our fantasies can remain 100% fantasy and have nothing to do with what we really want in a partner. I’ve fantasized oodles of times about situations I’d never do because they look sexy but in reality it’s not appealing, and about people I’d never date or have sex with. Orgies can arouse me yet I have zero interest in being in one because I want just woman to love. This is why women who try to look at their partners fantasies and get insecure from it are failing themselves bigtime, they’re comparing themselves to a standard that is impossible to reach and most likely isn’t an accurate reflection on his TRUE desires for REAL relationships. If my gf fantasizes about porn, do you think I should feel insecure that I haven’t raped her or some weird shit like that?

          • Archy: “Post the proof please, because this sounds like utter rubbish. “
            Well I do like to post utter rubbish just for the fun of it. You found me out!
            Archy: “I watched porn earlier today, my penis did not enter another person, I watched real people having sex via a video stream but I did not feel like I was “playing too”, I never have because…omg I must be unique…I can tell it’s not real?
            I didn’t say you couldn’t tell it wasn’t real. There is a huge difference as to what *you* can tell is real or isn’t and how your brain actually formats information. Which is why I gave you the example of seeing a really campy horror or action movie. Horror movies are meant to draw forth feelings of fear and adrenaline. But if you’ve ever seen a really silly one, it just makes you laugh and roll your eyes. For a horror movie to be effective to our psyche, it has make something inside your brain respond to it as if it was real. To draw forth those emotions. same thing happens through pornography.
            As for proof, it’s fairly easy to find all over the internet. Visit The New York Times and an article titled “Your Brain on Fiction”.
            You can get involved to some degree but if you do not realize that you aren’t actually participating in the activity onscreen then you need serious help.
            Archy: “That’s because of visual stimulation. An image is a visual depiction of a real person, a silly horror movie is fake because we have the intelligence to understand it is fake. “
            Horror movies are “visual stimulation” as much as a porn movie is. It’s just that the “visual stimulation” leads to a different set of emotions and feelings. I still believe you are failing to see the difference between an effective horror movie and a silly one. I don’t think you understand very well what I’m saying and I’m not sure how to say it in a way you will be able to understand.

            Archy: “ If my gf fantasizes about porn, do you think I should feel insecure that I haven’t raped her or some weird shit like that?”

            I think you should feel whatever feels *true* to you. I don’t think we should continue to berate others by simply telling them they are “insecure” or that feeling “insecure” is wrong in some way.

        • elizabeth says:

          Hi Erin-

          On the point of fantasy vs reality, I couldn’t express it any better than Archy did.

          I agree that there are a lot of ways we can explore our own desire. Porn can be one of them. I think that many women avoid it because it gets to those aspects of our nature that are base; animalistic, vulgar. I don’t think these are purely male attributes. Women have them too, and it makes me sad because if we deny them we’re missing out on a big part of sexuality.

          This isn’t to diminsh the other aspects of sex- romance, love, friendship, playfulness. All these are important too.

          As to the stereotype of the porn actress- yes, the spray tanned fembot is definitely an ideal. But how many women do you see actually looking like that? Are they even pretty? I don’t think so. Perhaps one of the male commenters could speak to that. There are lots of different looks in porn- different skin tones, body types, not all stick thin by any means. I think the sexiest women in porn are the ones who are visibly enjoying it.

          • I do like seeing thin women, petite women, toned, even women with the thigh gap are attractive to me but I am also attracted to heavier women, women with more muscle tone, etc. I know a lot of my friends aren’t attracted to thin women though but everyone is different. The most attractive women are the ones that are into it, who are enthusiastic and enjoy it. That said I find I am attracted to a slightly wider variety of women offline in the real world, porn on video seems to lack a lot of things that can make you attracted when met face to face such as smell, etc. People look slightly different on the screen?

            As I’ve said before I don’t watch romance in porn because I make that up in my head, porn just helps with visuals.

          • Elizabeth: “Hi Erin- On the point of fantasy vs reality, I couldn’t express it any better than Archy did.”

            Then I’d ask that you take a deeper look at the intricacies of what I was saying. Please check out the article I referenced to him. I am sure that at some point, you’ve seen some kind of movie where the events where so unbelievable it gave you no emotional reaction but to laugh at it or roll your eyes. I am also sure that you’ve seen movies that gave you a very strong reaction whether you cried, laughed in earnest, where scared or excited. That is the difference between what our brains respond to. In all those movies you watched, you were logically aware that they were all just a story, a “fantasy”. However you still responded differently to the ones you didn’t believe at all to the ones that drew emotions from you. I can’t stress this point enough and encourage some more conversation on it because it’s a key component in how we interact with media.

            “I agree that there are a lot of ways we can explore our own desire. Porn can be one of them. I think that many women avoid it because it gets to those aspects of our nature that are base; animalistic, vulgar. I don’t think these are purely male attributes. Women have them too, and it makes me sad because if we deny them we’re missing out on a big part of sexuality.”

            I think many woman avoid porn because porn largely caters to men and leaves very little of a real voice for real women and their real sexuality. Base, animalistic, vulgar or not.
            Lets not forget that porn is largely created for men. And that because it’s largely created for men, that there are fantasies incorporated into porn that have nothing to do with how women may want to actually express their sexuality. I don’t think women are afraid of animalistic sex. I think a lot of women like the idea of how animalistic sex is portrayed through porn. At the end of the day, porn is created to make money. It doesn’t care about the men who watch it. It doesn’t care about the women it watch it. It doesn’t care about the men and women in it. it cares about what makes money. And often what makes money as little to do with real raw, pure, animalistic …even vulgar sex. You want that kind of sex? Fun! Bring it on. But define it for yourself. Not because of how a porn movie, a vision giving usually to largely appeal to men, made by men, for men, giving very little real voice or true openness for women.

            Of course, there are movies that can appeal to women but a large chunk of the industry is lopsided. It alienates women from the discussion because it leaves no room for women to actually be part of the conversation. It’s primarily male fantasy given in a format that most appeals to men and denies women agency in being a part of that discussion.

            Personally, I think it’s silly to encourage people to look at porn because everyone seems to be looking at porn 24/7 as it is. I’d like to actually see a more *real* approach to sex which I think would actually breed healthy and exploratory sex over anything porn could possibly offer. Whether that sex is vulgar or sweet, at least you would be doing it on your own terms.
            Elizabeth: ” As to the stereotype of the porn actress- yes, the spray tanned fembot is definitely an ideal. But how many women do you see actually looking like that? Are they even pretty? I don’t think so. Perhaps one of the male commenters could speak to that. There are lots of different looks in porn- different skin tones, body types, not all stick thin by any means. I think the sexiest women in porn are the ones who are visibly enjoying it.”

            I think there are tons of extraordinary beautiful women in porn. Actually, the most common type of women in porn proves to statistically be white ethnicity, big breasted, thin and young. While other types exist outside of that, it doesn’t disprove the stereotype or bring all that much equality.

            I also think you may have forgotten that the women in porn are actresses for the most part. They are being paid to play a character. To pretend they are enjoying what is happening. That’s fine and all but not lets confuse what their real feelings may be during the sexual act vs what they are actually “acting” out. Isn’t that after all the nature of your argument when you talk about “fantasy”?

            • elizabeth says:

              Erin-

              Please don’t suggest that what I choose to watch or what I choose to do in the bedroom is somehow dictated by corporate greed or patriarchy. I am a grown woman who is perfectly in touch with my own desires and my own limits. I’m getting really tired of this brand of feminism that excludes other viewpoints. The logical endpoint to your argument is that I have no agency because I respond to images and acts that you consider distasteful. That’s an incredibly arrogant stance.

              You don’t speak for all women just as I don’t.

              Getting to that point of agency- I simply do not buy the idea that we are brainwashed by images of fantasy. I just don’t. Adults are too smart for that.

              What else- alright, we can agree then that the sexiest women in porn are the best actresses. It’s a semantic point at best. Do you honestly think I wasn’t aware of that?

            • Amen to that. The anti-porn brigade speaks some of the most misogynistic crap I’ve ever seen, acting like women have zero agency. There may be some influence of porn on the young which is an issue but still we can make choices as adults to what we like. I’d say there is far more issue with puritan beliefs harming sexuality. There is quite a lot of trouble with limited variety in porn however new technology has reduced the production and distribution costs for porn allowing for much more variety.

              Even if kids look at porn, the only way it could brainwash them is when they do not have decent sex ed. Google the video “Children Exposed To Porn May Expect Sex To Be Enjoyable”, it is a satirical piece on how porn can leave kids thinking sex is fun and not shameful. Funnily enough that is what porn made me think, that sex was fun, that both people were enjoying it and not just men alone (which so many people told me). A kid with decent sex ed should be fine, even if they see porn, why would it damage them? The main damages are forming unreal expectations of sex right? Why is that? BECAUSE that is the ONLY way they learn about sex and how it is performed. Did your sex ed tell you the positions to use, how to have sex, etc? Cuz mine didn’t, and yet I looked at a lot of porn and still understood that porn doesn’t show realistic sex a lot of the time because WE humans are that smart and can understand it. Talk to your friends, family, whoever, ask about how sex works, how to have it, go read books on it, research it, get better sex ed and that will neutralize the effects of porn in most cases.

            • Who are you refering to Archy because in this conversation, I haven’t seen anything misognynistic. If you have, can you show me where it exists?

              I’m not sure what women having “zero agencey” has to do with the fact that most porn is run for and by other men and their desires. Could you also explain this?

              I only re-accounted my experiences with porn and how i’ve seen men change in their expectations and desires since the advent of porn has become so popular. When I was younger, men seemed much more interested in sex as something that was suppose to be enjoyed by both and was suppose to be a communication between both. Today, alot of men seem to think that sex is just something you *do* to a woman and that now even verbally or physically abusive acts are “sexy” and normalized. *shrug*. I don’t exactly see more healthy ideas about sex or relationship in today’s world so I don’t think porn is doing us any favors.

              That’s great that you want to see something that both a man and woman are enjoying. But the fact is that in porn, THEY ARE ACTORS and ACTRESSESS. What they may actually enjoy and what they are paid to pretend they are enjoy are two different things we shouldn’t confuse. Yes?

              I think our society could actually stand to have a heck of a lot more positive forms of sexual education for kids, men and women other then what porn offers. Unfortunetly, porn offers the salcioucism that grabs attention in ways that more educational and probably more helpful information doesn’t.

              It bothers me that porn would be or is being used as “sex education”. especially since these people are simply *pretending*. They are not a real depiction of sex. I am not sure what you believe you are being educated on when you are seeing two people paid to pretend something for your pleasure.

              I am worried that we even need to neutralize the affects of porn. That line in iself says something very important about the reality of pornography.

            • “I’m not sure what women having “zero agencey” has to do with the fact that most porn is run for and by other men and their desires. Could you also explain this?”

              Read Elizabeth’s comment on denying agency, that is a start.

              Re: the misogyny, I refer to the outright slut shaming and degrading speeches some anti-porn folk often use that basically implies women cannot enjoy even male-typical porn with facials, etc. I didn’t mean you and I didn’t mean this comment thread alone. Think of the type of people that act like women in porn are ALWAYS damaged, ALWAYS the drug addicted junkie, people that treat the women in porn as if they are children and can’t decide for themselves to do such a career because they find that career abhorrent.

              “That’s great that you want to see something that both a man and woman are enjoying. But the fact is that in porn, THEY ARE ACTORS and ACTRESSESS. What they may actually enjoy and what they are paid to pretend they are enjoy are two different things we shouldn’t confuse. Yes?”
              Sure, but you also have to realize that at times THEY DO ENJOY IT. And depending on the genre, production company, etc THEY CAN ACTUALLY ENJOY IT. I’ve seen PLENTY of porn, probably 1000+ videos in the last decade where BOTH partners actually did enjoy it, real enjoyment, REAL contractions n orgasms, their body language indicated NOTHING BUT ENJOYMENT because it IS sexy to see and there are many videos which use REAL enjoyment and not just some fake stuff. The actor/esses get paid to be naked, film sex, sometimes to fake it and sometimes just to film whatever happens.

              “It bothers me that porn would be or is being used as “sex education”. especially since these people are simply *pretending*. They are not a real depiction of sex. I am not sure what you believe you are being educated on when you are seeing two people paid to pretend something for your pleasure. ”
              Have you ever watched much porn? There is plenty of porn that is REAL, I watched some yesterday. There are online webcam sites you can watch REAL couples having REAL sex with REAL pleasure, the only difference there really is they get interupted for requests and the camera angles favour some sex styles more than others. You can find plenty of amateur porn with REAL sex, and there are plenty of pro-level stuff with people just having REAL sex that can be very educational to people who haven’t had any. There are even videos made purposely to educate and show REAL TIPS because NOT ALL PORN IS FAKE. Not all porn actor/resses do it for money either! Expand your mind a little and realize that porn can be far more than fake sex, the overwhelming majority of porn I look at has real live sex, same sex I do in relationships with the only differences being mainly sometimes the camera angle favours a slight body position change and lighting is more important. Hell the porn I was watching yesterday was chock full of women having orgasms, real orgasms, using muscles that would damn near be impossible to fake the pleasure, leg n body spasms which we cannot simply just do on command (ones that I get in orgasm myself and ONLY in orgasm).

              “I am worried that we even need to neutralize the affects of porn. That line in iself says something very important about the reality of pornography.”

              Actually what we need to do is neutralize the puritan values that have severely fucked up human sexuality. Most of the damage from porn is because there is very little of discussion of sex in the modern world with family n friends, sex education at schools are a joke, so porn fills in the gap when it’s hit n miss on the quality of that porn. Do you tell your friends the positions you enjoy? Do you describe your sex intimately? If not then congrats because you are helping cause the issues too, like most of us, because we cannot get an idea of what normal sex is without knowing what we all do. The puritan values leaves abstinence only style sex ed which tells you nothing about how to have sex in a fun way, even the sex ed that talks about condoms, etc don’t tell you the positions a woman will enjoy most on average. So people are left with talking to friends if they’re lucky enough to have open minded friends (which is where I learned a lot, even had lesbian friends tell me how to go down on a woman) or you look online for guides, look to porn and you may be lucky and find correct info.

              If people had awesome sex ed, then the damage in porn wouldn’t really exist much. It only exists mainly because people don’t have much of an alternative. Teach people that some sex in porn is fake, teach them that camera angles dictate the positions in some videos, teach them that some actresses fake it, teach them that magazines often do photoshop labiaplasty because of stupid censorship laws. Already most of the damage is gone. Tell people to look at a variety of porn instead of a narrow amount. Teach them that there is GOOD porn, without the gagging n degrading shit. But porn’s damage is largely because of a lack of decent sex education and diversity in what people are looking at.

            • Archy: “Read Elizabeth’s comment on denying agency, that is a start.”
              I did read it. Which is what incited my question to begin with. I needed more of an explaintion.

              But thank you for clearing up my other question. I think you will see that “slut-shaming” and “degrading speeches” can come from pro-porn folks as much as anti-porn folks. I’m not sure it’s fair to simply say that that anti-porn folks are the only ones guilty of that. Heck, a lot of porn itself engages in “slut shaming” language and degradation. Although, this seems excusable as long as someone is getting sexually excited over it. Which is kind of a funny way to determine if something is okay or not. Is everything okay as long as it gets us horny enough? That might be another discussion.

              I don’t think I really ever encountered someone that thought the women in porn were *always* damaged. Although, I have seen people, including myself, that tend to believe that *A lot* of women in porn have been involved in some previous life trauma that has lead to the choice to be in porn. There is a difference between “ALWAYS” and “A LOT”, I believe.

              Archy: “Sure, but you also have to realize that at times THEY DO ENJOY IT.”

              Why would I have to realize that at times “they do enjoy it”? It’s “fantasy”. Right? Which is one of the biggest ways I hear porn being explained, as “fantasy” and “not real”? So why would I *have* to realize and make assumptions about what an ACTOR or ACTRESS is supposedly enjoying? Isn’t it more logical to assume that since they are an ACTOR or ACTRESS in a movie that they are WORKING. They may be enjoying something. But the truth is that they are doing it for WORK, to be paid to create a fantasy for others. Not necessarily for their pleasure. I think it makes more sense to understand that porn is “fantasy” and to not make assumptions about what an actor or actress may be personally enjoying simply because it makes me feel good or better to hypothesize over it. If we are going to look at porn and dictate to ourselves what an actor or actress is enjoying, than we are buying into it much more than we really should be. To me, it’s a very dangerous slope to tell ourselves what we think others are enjoying when they are paid to perform a task.

              Archy: “Expand your mind a little..”

              Are you suggesting that my mind isn’t expanded like yours is Archy? Could it be that my mind is expanded every much as yours even if I don’t see things *your* way?

              Erin: “I am worried that we even need to neutralize the affects of porn. That line in iself says something very important about the reality of pornography.”

              Archy: “Actually what we need to do is neutralize the puritan values that have severely fucked up human sexuality. “

              ACTUALLY, how about we do both? Because I actually believe BOTH hold their own value.

              Archy: “Most of the damage from porn is because there is very little of discussion of sex in the modern world with family n friends, sex education at schools are a joke, so porn fills in the gap when it’s hit n miss on the quality of that porn.”

              There absolutely needs to be more discussion about sex. There also totally needs to be more discussion about porn in an educational way, not a salacious one. And not one where the parent gives the child a brief little “porn talk” or “sex talk”. It needs to be an on going discussion just like sex needs to be. I suspect that parents talk even less about porn than they do sex when their children are probably looking at a lot of porn sadly.

              But there are many more elements at play than just what you’ve suggested. Unfortunately, while porn does remain a strong educator on sex, it also is largely and heavily biased to men over women. Which creates information to both men (boys) and women (girls) that men’s sexual needs are more important and that women are simply a product to be used for male gratification. This is especially dangerous in younger kids who think they are seeing a format of sex that is the “correct” way to have sex.

              Archy: “Do you tell your friends the positions you enjoy? Do you describe your sex intimately? If not then congrats because you are helping cause the issues too, like most of us, because we cannot get an idea of what normal sex is without knowing what we all do.”

              Some things I talk about, some things I don’t. Some things I want to be just my own. I shouldn’t be shamed because of that. But yes, more healthy conversation about sex can’t hurt. But that is only one part.

              Archy: “So people are left with talking to friends if they’re lucky enough to have open minded friends (which is where I learned a lot, even had lesbian friends tell me how to go down on a woman) or you look online for guides, look to porn and you may be lucky and find correct info.”

              Well Archy, due to my own experiences, what I’ve seem among men and my own sexual relationships, I’ve seen men who have seemed to revert and digress in their sexual education. And I think a lot of that has to do with the poor information they have taken in from porn.

            • “I think you will see that “slut-shaming” and “degrading speeches” can come from pro-porn folks as much as anti-porn folks. ”

              I know, didn’t say they weren’t. The whole dirty talk bullshit in porn is a prime example of that, I HATE when people refer to pornstars as sluts even when they like porn.

              “There is a difference between “ALWAYS” and “A LOT”, I believe. ”
              As I said I didn’t mean you, it’s others I meant. I’ve seen oodles that act like it’s always exploitive, there’s currently someone on another thread on GMP trying to prove this to me and failing miserably, even went as far to say I should feel bad about porn I’ve been apart of! (which was sexting to a friend)

              “Isn’t it more logical to assume that since they are an ACTOR or ACTRESS in a movie that they are WORKING.”
              But not all porn is paid for stuff, there are oodles that do it because they liek voyeurism. I sexted someone, technically I was in porn, I did it because her face lit up like christmas at the amazement of seeing my penis and it was fun for her (and the same for me seeing her). Even in pro porn there are plenty that enjoy the work, work can be fun. I take photos for work, that’s fun for me too. Of course there will be a lot that is also boring to them, the stuff on sets with multiple takes will be quite stressful (eg trying to remain hard/wet, in the mood) but stuff that is shot start to finish in one hit will be far better (sexting is more like that and online webcam shows).

              “ACTUALLY, how about we do both? Because I actually believe BOTH hold their own value.”
              I meant to say a lot of issues from porn directly start because of puritanism, slut shaming for instance, degradation, etc. Porn without good sex ed is far more damaging to a person who has had good sex ed, since they know it’s not always real and that sex varies a lot more than common themes in pro porn.

              ‘Well Archy, due to my own experiences, what I’ve seem among men and my own sexual relationships, I’ve seen men who have seemed to revert and digress in their sexual education. And I think a lot of that has to do with the poor information they have taken in from porn.”

              Did they get any decent sex ed?

            • Archy: “I know, didn’t say they weren’t.”

              You didn’t. But you didn’t exactly bring it up either. In that instance, you only mentioned anti-porn people. Which is why I made that comment.

              Archy: “As I said I didn’t mean you, it’s others I meant. I’ve seen oodles that act like it’s always exploitive, there’s currently someone on another thread on GMP trying to prove this to me and failing miserably, even went as far to say I should feel bad about porn I’ve been apart of! (which was sexting to a friend)”

              But if they infact do feel that it is *always* explotive, who are you to say that’s wrong? Obviously you have a different stand point but they are not “failing miserably” if they don’t see things your way or “fail” to justify things to “you”. You are not some higher power they have to *prove* something to. Obviously you have also “failed” to “prove” your own points to them. Otherwise they would agree with you.

              Archy: “But not all porn is paid for stuff, there are oodles that do it because they liek voyeurism. ”

              Yes there are. Does this automatically exclude the idea of objecitification? I’m not so sure that it always does. There are also oodles of people that made private-home-made videos for their own relationships that later discover a former or current lover broke their trust by posting it world wide. Unfortunetly, women are usually the ones that find a sexual video of them was posted without their agreement, more so than men find the same. It was in a recent article I read and what the article and professionals called “revenge-porn”.

              Archy: “I sexted someone, technically I was in porn…”

              I wouldn’t say someone who texted something sexual was “in porn”. I also am conflicted on what we define as porn and don’t. Sure, we can go by the book definition and say that all sexual material falls under one comformed umbrella called “porn”. But I think there is a lot more gray than to simply put every sexual act or text or visual someone does as automatically being under one huge umbrella called “porn”. Especially because when you say the word “porn” , objectively, I think most of hte public will think of it in it’s classic form first of mass produced sexual material. I don’t think it’s healthy to begin telling ourselves that we are all simply making or performing porn just because something I sexual either. Yikes, that’s kind of scarey if you ask me. I think there needs to be a distinguishment between “porn” and “sex” and frankly it frightens me that these two terms are being interchangable.

              I think what you choose to do in the privacy of your own relationship, for your own eyes, is not comparable to a mass marketed product.

              Archy: “Even in pro porn there are plenty that enjoy the work, work can be fun. I take photos for work, that’s fun for me too.”

              I’ve been told time and time again about how porn is “fantasy”. And that because it’s “fantasy”, everything under that umbrella of unreal sexual pleasure is totally okay as long as people don’t confuse it with real life. We are falling into a slippery slope when we begin to tell ourselves little stories about what actors and actresses paid for work really may or may not enjoy. Do not confuse the actor or actress with the fantasy they are creating. Even in couples that appear to be making a home-made video. It’s still a fantasy in a way. You don’t know what happens after that video shuts off, you don’t even know if both really achieved real pleasure if they were more excited by putting their own performance on. There are so many variables.

              Now obviously there will be people that do enjoy it or enjoy certain things, but at the end of the day, these people are acting a part and being paid to act it.

              Archy: “I meant to say a lot of issues from porn directly start because of puritanism, slut shaming for instance, degradation, etc. ”

              And I said that a lot of issues with porn also start from the over-sexualition and objectifiction of people, especially women, in society and in pornography itself. BOTH sides need to be addressed. Not simply this strange war that a lot of people want to fight on “puritanism” while not also wanting to address the over-sexualization and objectification that is also just as unhealthy.

              Archy: “Porn without good sex ed is far more damaging to a person who has had good sex ed, since they know it’s not always real and that sex varies a lot more than common themes in pro porn.”

              I’ve seen a lot of grown, fully developed, intelligent adults also be affected by porn. I think it’s a lie to tell ourselves that only children and those that aren’t educated about it are in danger. Which is why I have been open about relaying my own experiences and what I have seen happen to grown adult men and their inablity to relate to me less as a woman and person while they seem fully able to overly relate to pornography.

              Archy: “Did they get any decent sex ed?”

              How am I suppose to know the entire sexual history of what kind of sexual education someone got? All I know is that issues with men and porn come from all social levels, economic levels and educational backgrounds. I have to assume that from the mixed pull of men I’ve dated and had relationships with, that they also had mixed levels of sexual education.


            • But if they infact do feel that it is *always* explotive, who are you to say that’s wrong? Obviously you have a different stand point but they are not “failing miserably” if they don’t see things your way or “fail” to justify things to “you”. You are not some higher power they have to *prove* something to. Obviously you have also “failed” to “prove” your own points to them. Otherwise they would agree with you. ”

              I am someone that understands logic n reasoning, and it’s just not logical to assume porn is ALWAYS exploitive and can easily be proven that it isn’t? It’s like being told gravity doesn’t exist.

              “Otherwise they would agree with you. ”
              Some people cannot be told or shown the truth, we still have anti-vaxxers who assume vaccinations are bad who put ALL OF US at risk for their ignorance, how the hell do you prove it to them when science already disproved their fears??

              ” Yikes, that’s kind of scarey if you ask me. I think there needs to be a distinguishment between “porn” and “sex” and frankly it frightens me that these two terms are being interchangable.”

              Why is it scary? Porn is erotic and sexual content recorded, nothing more. Why do you think I get shitty so much when people act like porn is ALWAYS bad? Sexting is a form of porn, the pro industry is NOT ALL that porn is.

              “How am I suppose to know the entire sexual history of what kind of sexual education someone got? All I know is that issues with men and porn come from all social levels, economic levels and educational backgrounds. I have to assume that from the mixed pull of men I’ve dated and had relationships with, that they also had mixed levels of sexual education.”

              So what exactly harmed them? Most things that harm people in porn are directly linked to lack of education, puritanism, etc. Over-sexualization is a problem because of lack of diversity in media as a whole, if we showed far more cases of women being in all types of roles then the sexualization from porn would have far less impact because we wouldn’t just see women and sex together taking most of the media share.

            • Elizabeth, I haven’t made any specific comment about you personally and what you may choose to do in the bedroom or how much of itis or isn’t influenced by what you’ve personally seen. Any comments I’ve made are simply generalizations, not necessarily specific to your own unique life situation. Just as you’ve made your own generalizations about why you believe women believe or do certain things, specific to women who you believe have issues with porn; I’ve made some of my own generalizations. Neither generalization is “right” or “wrong” in their own context but each of us certainly do disagree with parts of the other’s opinion.

              I certainly think that if we are going to talk about pornography, it’s important to know the driving force behind it. Which isn’t to be a benevolent source of sexual release. The very real fact is that most porn is still largely made by men to cater to a male audience. Whether that’s right or wrong, is up to the individual. However, one can’t deny the lost voice (female) in a medium that is dominated by male wants and desires and how that affects the material being put out there. This doesn’t mean that women can not also want the same things sometimes. It does mean that women actually have a very small voice, if any, in what most heterosexual men are looking and seeking in porn since most of it is realistically driven by male producers and audiences. I don’t think I’m pointing out anything you’d even really disagree with but let me know if I’m wrong on that.

              Being aware of this and acknowledging this does a lot in possibly explaining the different ways women and men respond to porn and why men and women may or may not be more inclined to enjoy porn.

              I actually have no idea what you mean by “this brand of feminism that excludes other viewpoints”. This is my own viewpoint. Just me. One woman. Accumulated over time by my own experiences. That’s all. Nothing more. Just as your view point is of your own. I am not attempting to exclude anyone even if they don’t agree with my opinon.

              My viewpoint can not in anyway deny *you* your own agency. I have actually no judgement of *you* as an individual because you may enjoy images I don’t. I do not know if you are a *good* person or a *bad* but I suspect like me, you’re just a person who lives in the world and does both good and bad. Just like me.
              I never said I spoke for all women but I have made my own opinion be known just as you have.

              It’s not a simple matter of simply being “brainwashed” by images. Adults can be very smart but we can also be very complex. Our ability to be *tricked* by imagery actually has no baring on our intelligence. The two are not related. So it’s not a matter of Adults being “too smart for that”. Per the article I supplied, the human brain is a complex machine and our brains don’t distinguish between the pleasure of what we are seeing vs the pleasuring of what we may be actually doing. I refer you once again to the comments I made about our responses to regular movies.

              I actually never said anything about who the sexiest women in porn where and I’m not really very interested in making such a point because it’s not really a part of the topic that interests me. I was only interested in pointing out that the women in porn are at the core of it, still actresses and that anything they may be projecting on screen shouldn’t be assumed that is being enjoyed. It’s her job to pretend that she is enjoying it whether she really is or not. So it’s not really a good argument to say that the women in porn are enjoying what’s going on when we really don’t know what they truly enjoy since they are at the end of the day : actresses.

            • elizabeth says:

              And Erin, I’m curious, what kind of porn “can” appeal to women? What does our “real” sexuality look like? I ask this somewhat in sarcasm, but somewhat seriously as well. I have my own stereotypes about “porn for women” that usually revolve around soft focus, bear skin rugs, candles, etc, etc., which frankly for me is a giant snooze fest. You agree that women like to see more animalistic sex in porn. Can you point to an example? I’d like to be freed of this assumption I’m making, if possible.

            • Missionary position, not too long, after 20 hours of romantic foreplay with candles, special music, after he has slaved away at trying to please her of course! /sarcasm.

              I think she means however porn that isn’t catering ONLY to the male gaze, and I agree that diversity is needed there. Some of the porn that has gagging, slapping, etc may turn off many women (and men), porn that has unrealistic portrayals of bodies or very limited diversity such as the blonde bimbo can be boring too since it’d be harder some women to relate?

            • elizabeth says:

              I’m not so sure that porn caters only to the male gaze, that’s what I’ve been saying. But I’m interested to hear her reply. What’s a female gaze? And don’t we all own parts of each?

            • To be honest Elizabeth, I am less interested in what kind of porn can appeal to women vs what kind of SEX can appeal to women. Two very different things in my mind’s eye. Although I am sure that there is a wide range of porn that appeals to a wide range of women. Whether it’s healthy or not is up for debate. Women can fall into the same pitfalls of porn that men can.

              Regardless, porn is still largely driven by a male point of view and by male wants and desires. They can heavily influence how both men and women approach sex. This is still a major concern and point of interest. If both men and women are taking their cues from a medium that historically is known for catering to men, than what is actually happening to women? They aren’t getting much of a voice. Unless we are talking about the very limited subset of porn made for women, by women that most heterosexual men infact don’t want to look at.

              Pin-pointing our *real* sexuality is actually a very tricky thing to do since we are pretty much all influenced in varying degrees by the messages we’ve received about sex or the visuals we’ve seen about sex. Especially when we were younger. All I know is that I would like human beings to be given more of a chance to explore their own sexuality on their own terms instead of having messages and ideas set up for them since before puberty through things like porn. The average age young boys begin looking at porn is from 9-12. Someone’s real sexuality could very well contain hardcore sex acts or not. It’s up to them. But I do think we are much more heavier influenced by our sexual culture and pornography than you seem to. Which of is right? I am sure both of us think that *we* know the truth over the other.

              By the way, what I agreed to was that women can like animalistic sex as much as men. Visually or otherwise. I did not say that “women like to see more animalistic sex in porn.” Those are again, two different things. I am not sure what kind of example you are looking for. Or why you are looking to me to free your assumptions from. Women are very passionate human beings. Just as men are. And I think a lot of women enjoy being able to have a wild, free, safe session of sex. I do not think most heterosexual male porn supplies women with that. Even if that’s what men would like to happen.

              Unfortunetly, in most porn, it’s a hybrid fantasy of what men want in most cases. It’s too bad that men don’t want sex and depictions of sex to be more of a collaboration between men and women so much as they want to see their own fantasies rendered by other men, for other men acted out.

              You think women are threatened by porn because it shows “animalistic” sex (Although whose version of “animalistic sex” it is is up for debate). I think women are turned off sometimes or threatened by porn because most heterosexual porn actually gives real women and their wants and desires very little real agencey or voice over the male dominated fantasy world porn is.

            • elizabeth says:

              Erin,

              To me, your argument reduces to this: Porn is bad because it caters to men. Then you outline how from this initial flaw other wrongs filter down: brainwashing, and the loss of women’s voice on the screen and in the bedroom.

              Yet when confronted with several comments attesting otherwise, that women can and do enjoy these images, instead of reassessing your initial premise, Porn is for Men, you sweep the counter arguments under the carpet, suggesting that other viewpoints are either A) brainwashed

              “You want that kind of sex? Fun! Bring it on. But define it for yourself. Not because of how a porn movie, a vision giving usually to largely appeal to men, made by men, for men, giving very little real voice or true openness for women”

              Or B) male. Which by the way, is not intrinsically bad…

              Do you see that this is a bit of a circular argument you’re making? I asked you about a “real female” perspective on porn to give you a bit of an out, frankly. Instead you respond by saying you’re not interested in porn at all. Well ok then. I don’t see much to work with here.

            • Elizabeth, if you believe my argument is as simple as, “Porn is bad because it caters to men”, then you haven’t really given me a fair shake. I simply want to make sure we all understand this key aspect of porn and the voice it largely gives to male desires. This says nothing about the “badness” or “goodness” of porn itself. Although when one gender group tends to have a bigger amount of control over a type of media, over the other, it does tend to create an imbalance and limited voice to the other.

              This happens with both men and women. So this is to highlight the perspective at which we are seeing porn. Which is largely through a filter of what men largely want. I also was pretty clear in acknowledging that this doesn’t mean that there are women who can’t or also won’t enjoy this. So it was disingenuous of you to claim that I ignored any kind of commentary from you about your comments about some women enjoying these images as well.

              What you call “brainwashing”, I call “humanness”. There are certain facts and realities about how the human brain operates that has nothing to do with us being stupid or inept but everything to do with us being human. I worked in advertising for years and have a little knowledge in how advertising works on people of all social and educational levels. Having knowledge about how human beings absorb information is a key component in talking about how information, in this case porn, can affect us. I even supplied you with an article. I can supply you with more information if you’d like. Or you are free to search and research it for yourself.

              I’m not sure how making these points sweeps anything under the carpet. But in general, during my discussions with you, you’ve attempted to make these strange little jibs.

              Yes, I certainly still believe in my initial premise. And you still believe in yours. So saying that simply by being confronted with your and Archy’s viewpoint should have changed mine, is a little silly.

              No, I don’t see how I am making a “circular argument” although I do know I repeat myself a lot. I do that because I often find the comments I am repeating are ignored and not properly addressed. So I keep saying them over and over again until they are addressed. :)

              I also fail to see how asking me about a “real female” perspective on porn was to give me an “out”. I frankly don’t need an “out”. My opinion deserves as much respect as yours does and this need you seem to feel to condescend to others is transparent in sentences where you suggest you need to give others an “out”.

              I responded by giving you a very realistic and honest comment. Yes, I did say that I am more interested in the kind of sex that appeals to women over the kind of porn. But I did go on to say that I am sure that a wide range of porn that appeals to a wide range of women. How did you not see this? Especially since it was in my very first paragraph? Also, please review both the third and forth paragraph down in my previous commentary to get further answers to your question about a “real female” perspective on porn”.

              If you don’t see much to work with, then I can’t really help you. All I can do is discuss topics to the best of my knowledge with my own opinion in hopefully a respectful way. It’s up to you what you want to do with that. I’m not in charge of how much work you do or don’t want to put into something. That’s only in your power Elizabeth.

  34. I think that attempting to dissect the basis of human sexuality in any regard is a slippery slope. What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander. I have dated a number of women who like rough sex, even more than I am comfortable with, and who at least 3 of the things on this list were huge turn-ons for them. None of them were involved in any way in the sex industry. They just liked the rush and the visceral reaction of rough, animalistic sex. So defining something as “good” or “bad” when it comes to sexuality is, in my mind, not only a slippery slope, but utterly inaccurate.

    You may rephrase this article by saying “some women do not like these things” ,but then again, some women do not like giving blow-jobs, or having sex at all. Some women don’t like penises (those “real women” are called lesbians) and would prefer a man not get anywhere near their special parts.

    There is NO blueprint for sexuality.

    What this boils down to is very, very VERY simple. COMMUNICATION and being less ashamed to talk about what you like and what you don’t like. If your guy is going down on you and is being too rough, tell him, and let both partners not be ashamed…either to talk about it OR to be “corrected”. If you are into your guy “finishing” on your face (and again, I’ve dated women who love it) then tell him to do it. If you are a guy, maybe not assume that an extreme act like a facial should be attempted without asking.

    As some of the comments have posted, there is some suggestion that the “turn ons” that exist in that regard are connected to a greater issue of patriarchal dominance, but that is a discussion that is WELL outside the scope of this article. This article purports that “real women” don’t like these things. So what does that say about the women that I know, in real life, who do like these things? Are they perverted? Are they not real women?

    It’s not simplify things by suggesting that sexual acts are “bad” or wrong. That’s the exact same thinking that admonishes gay people because their sexual acts are “unnatural”. Nothing in sex that is consensual and done with open communication should be labeled as “wrong”.

  35. dalsgaard says:

    I don’t watch porn anymore for a myriad of reasons, but it was a real struggle to actually stop watching it. I believe it can be healthy to explore your own (And/or your partners) sexual fantasies through porn, but far too often it becomes a replacement, a crutch, or a form of escapism. With the advent of the internet, anyone can fulfill their ultimate sexual desires through vicarious living, even if those desires or not even physically possible. When are we going to stop and ask what kind of effect that has on the people who watch porn excessively, instead of just talking about how women are affected? Because when we do stop and talk about that, perhaps we will uncover a thing or two that is beneficial to everyone.

    • I think that’s a good discussion to have to odalsgarrd. Considering your own struggles, why don’t you write and article about just that topic for GMP? I would be interested in reading it.

  36. God meant for our sex drive to be channeled to a real live human being, not to a computer screen.

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