Andrew Smiler identifies 7 things we can do today to change ideas about male sexuality
American culture sees male sexuality as easily aroused, barely controlled, and able to overwhelm rational thought, believes the little head does the thinking for the big head and has a hard time distinguishing normal male sexuality from the abuse of power known as rape or sexual assault. As a result, it’s easy to believe that any guy could be a rapist or child molester. Little wonder that Jamie Peck asked if Men Can Write About Sex Without Sounding Like Douchebags; this limiting and narrowly defined space leaves little that’s interesting to explore. Alyssa Royse responded by describing The Danger in Demonizing Male Sexuality.
Changing ideas about male sexuality will require action from all of us, at both the individual and structural levels.
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Royce was on target when she asked: “how can we all work together to change our collective impression of male sexuality as something that is dangerous and disgusting?” Although she acknowledges the need to understand and dismantle patriarchy and male privilege, her specific suggestions focus on helping men understand their potential partners (#1-3) and supporting/boosting men’s self-esteem (#4-5), presumably so they don’t take out their sexual frustrations on others.
These answers are a useful beginning but don’t go far enough. They place responsibility strictly in men’s hands, yet the problem is societal and needs all of us working at a variety of levels. Large-scale change requires more than a few—or even many—people changing on the individual level. Feminists taught us that the personal is political, so changing ideas about male sexuality will require action from all of us, at both the individual and structural levels.
Here are 7 things we can all do today to help combat and dismantle the stereotype.
1. Understand that rape and assault aren’t sex.
It’s pretty simple, really. If you want to do—or are doing—something sexual and your partner agrees to let you do it, then it’s sex. There’s a space in which you might suggest something to a partner and that person says no; that’s called saying no (or not yet). If force is threatened or used, that’s assault or rape. Sex frequently occurs between individuals who are attracted to or love each other and in most cases, both partners are “turned on.” Assault and rape often occur outside of a caring relationship and usually involve a desire to cause pain or prove something.
2. Learn the truth about male sexuality.
The stereotype is largely incorrect. If you really listen to most of the guys in your life, you’ll find that the majority aren’t screwing around or looking for a new partner every weekend. The vast majority only have one partner at a time, and they’re not particularly interested in one-night stands. We all need to understand that these guys are the rule, not the exception.
3. Challenge friends who espouse the stereotype.
The thing about stereotypes is that they describe everyone in the group; they say “all guys are like that.” Ask your friends if they really mean all, of if it’s really about most, some, or even just a few guys. Push the issue by going through the list of men you and your friend know personally, including family members, classmates, and co-workers.
4. Ask for clarification.
When your friends say things like “guys are only interested in sex” or “men are dogs,” ask for details. How do you know he’s only interested in sex? That’s pretty clear if it’s a one-night stand where no one got last names, phone numbers, or email addresses, but it’s more ambiguous if they’ve hung out a few times or had sex more than once. It’s also pretty clear if he’s paying directly for sex, but not when there’s some type of relationship and sharing of secrets occurring. If a guy just wanted sex, wouldn’t it be easier for him to find a sex worker and pay for a night’s pleasure than to spend all that time texting, emailing, going out to dinner, etc.? I admit that there are some pickup artists who are only interested in the seduction and sex it leads to, but again, that’s a very small percentage of guys.
5. Give men space to violate the stereotype
There are many reasons why men rarely show their emotions in public or acknowledge enjoying romantic movies. If we want men to act differently, we need to support them when they do so. Publicly calling a guy a wimp or berating him because he’s too emotional reminds all guys that these behaviors are not acceptable for men in our culture. If you have a problem with a guy in your life, take it up with him privately. And think twice before sharing it with your friends; it’s hard to know how they’ll understand it or where the story will go.
6. Demand better from big media.
Sex comedies such as American Pie and Porky’s promote the idea that guys are only interested in sex and that any kind of deceit, trickery, or stunt is more-or-less “fair game” when a guy wants to get laid. We also see the stereotype acted out by Charlie on Two and A Half Men, Barney on How I Met Your Mother, and any number of other popular TV characters. Vote with your wallet and your eyeballs: don’t watch. If you want to go farther, send email to network executives who oversee programming and even organize a protest. It worked for women in the 1970s who were tired of seeing women as competent mothers, ditzes (usually blond), and secretaries but nothing else; there’s no reason to believe it can’t work again.
7. Become media literate.
Instead of quietly accepting what the media shows, ask questions about how realistic it is. I know the screen won’t respond (yet; I’m sure someone’s working on that), but your partner, friends, co-workers, and children will. Sure, some might tell you to shut up because you’re ruining their pleasure, so you’ll need to be careful about who and when. Or perhaps you don’t want to be careful. Regardless, ask questions like “is that realistic” or “how likely is that?” Ask why Charlie got all the girls, breaks, and laughs on Two and A Half Men and Alan pretty much never got anything. Learn from Evan in Superbad; he spends most of the movie challenging Seth’s claims about what guys do and how sex and relationships work.
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Changing our cultural assumptions about male sexuality will take work but that work will ultimately benefit all of us. It’ll give most guys the option to be more romantic and emotional. It’ll also mean they don’t have to spend time convincing a new partner that they’re a good guy and “not like most guys.” The folks men date, regardless of their gender, will get better partners and will be better able to focus on their own pleasure instead of worrying about controlling their guy’s sexual wants.
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photo by Toper
Men do not learn what is acceptable sexual behavior from media any more than kids learn that violence is ok from video games.
Playing on stereotypes is what makes comedy comedy.
It makes it funny for a myriad of reasons.
Sometimes it is the shock that no man is actually like this or it is rare that people find it funny that someone is like this it is almost a joke.
but in real life it would be seen as unacceptable behavior.
Media is (especially fiction) is an escape from reality.
I think you have it wrong.
ALL sexuality is threatening, because we can’t control it. Just take a look at history… we want nothing more then to control sex.
Screw you. I’m not a spammer
I agree with all your points but several of them allude to there something being wrong with men who do want to play the field and enjoy more than one sexual partner at one time. I think society should get used to the idea that there isn’t anything wrong with that, as it is possible to do it ethically and honestly without hurting anyone. Then there’s the flip side that equal numbers of women also enjoy being promiscuous.
You know I was going to tell you…oh hang on, seven seconds are up, I need to think about sex…
I was going to say that in this modern world…ooh, I’ll put a ring on it baby yeah. Sorry! That stereotypes are there for a reason, after all…hang on, ooh yes, this cup of tea is hot, smoking hot! What I mean to say is that you can’t just blame the media….my goodness I never knew computer screens were so alluring–oh for goodness sake how am I supposed to get anything done around here!
Nah, it’s just the regular American men, always afraid, always having to prove how much of a beast he is. He has to say he only thinks about sex, he has to scream out loud he thinks women were created only for his manly desires (it’s really a lot more common for the straight guy to act/think/talk like that), he has a lot to “prove” – and his sexuality is the base of his character, personality and life. Very usual for them; I don’t see this behavior at all in the men of my Country or, at least, not more… Read more »
Sarah,
You have been extraordinarily respectful, honest and kind. Even when facing some pretty disgusting condescension. Thank you, brave heart.
Best,
Honor
One of the worst things I did when I was trying to build confidence about my male identity was to read studies about the penis sizes of different ethnic groups. What I was trying to do was to make sure that my penis size was normal somewhere in the world. For me I needed to know that in some area I would be doing better or at least be the same as a large group of people. I was so involved with my own concept of self-image that I completely lost sight of the racism that I was producing in… Read more »
Didn’t know where to post this, but it annoyed me, so I had to share. This is an article about everyday sexism, and centres around teenage boys (the article insists on calling them young men, but they’re 17! They’re hardly men) being obnoxious vulgar sexist jerks. I kind of think this says more about teenagers than men, but there we go. Nevertheless it’s unpleasant, I have no problem with that. However the journalist takes time out from this anecdote to declare that “misandryism isn’t a thing.” How does the existence of misogyny disprove the existence of misandry? Just wanted to… Read more »
How does the existence of misogyny disprove the existence of misandry? The common “proof” is that since the things that are seen as misandry are actually side effects of misogyny those thing really aren’t hateful towards men. For example parenting. According to their line of thought the ways in which men are conditioned away from parenting on the premise that their place is to work outside the home aren’t the problem. No the problem is that women are conditioned into parenting on the premise that their place is to care for children. Therefore while men are conditioned away from parenting… Read more »
Sorry I posted my previous comment under the wrong article.
You have some really good ideas!! I personally don’t like the words “real man”, to me it’s demeaning to men. Growing up I always heard people saying real men do this and real men don’t do that. After moving out on my own I would hear from the women in the dating scene that there are no real men anymore. This last really frustrated me at first cause I’d be thinking “I’m trying to have a conversation with you to see if I like you and your whining about men?? If there are no real men left than what I’m… Read more »
You lost me in the first paragraph by putting a rapist and a pedophile in the same sentence.
Rape and pedophilia are both severe sexual pathologies.
Great response to the earlier article. And one additional thing occurs to me: why women and men think “all women are like this, all men are like that”. Until you’ve found the one person who gets you and you’re off the market, the people you’ll encounter are the ones you meet. For women, that’s mostly going to be douchebag players. Even though they make up a smaller portion of the population, if you’re idea of a good night is to go out to a loud club and be talked to by the guy you think is hot, then you’re going… Read more »
interesting….
‘Fear’ is a very loaded word. Bias, disdain, resentment, and hate all connote an arbitrary measure of cruel selfishness; whereas ‘fear’ connotes self-awareness & self-preservation. Because of this, fear is often used to justify and legitimize prejudice- a justifiable fear (and really, what fears can’t be justified, in some way) can be used to justify, rationalize, or even enshrine a prejudice. But so many people seem to forget that understanding and/or rationalizing a prejudice is NOT, and should not be the END of the process, it’s only the middle. The end of the process should be overcoming the prejudice- one might need… Read more »
But yeah, it is a very important point that a vast group of men probably just wants a girlfriend or wife. Many men don`t enjoy casual sex or are ok with it but don`t really desire it all that much.
What kind and how much sex a person wants changes over a lifetime. Most people, as I see it, want to explore when they’re young and find security when they’re old.
@Jack Pine…
Since I had limited partners and sex when I was young, I now explore all the time at age 50. Love it!
Pretty much how it’s gone for me, too. Until age 35 I had extremely few (read: one) sex partner. Now I’m 37 and in the last two years I’ve somehow ‘figured it out’. Largely the antidepressant. But other things too. Glad I’m not married. So much to learn about people. Far too much to have learned by, say, age 25.
@Jack Pine:
What kind and how much sex a person wants changes over a lifetime. Most people, as I see it, want to explore when they’re young and find security when they’re old.
I think most people, or at least far more people than we think, would be happy to do most of the exploration with a single partner who gets them and be happy to share the explorations with them.
Diversity in partners doesn’t necessarily (or when you’re young, not even probably) mean diversity in experience, if those partners are equally minded and (un)experienced.
No doubt there are many, many men that have far less promiscuous inclinations than men in general are perceived to have. However, there is a way of reasoning I have seen in arguments made by others claiming most men are not all that interested in many sex partners that is faulty. They either look at the preferences given by men in surveys or how many partners they have. How many partners men actually have tells us little because most men don`t have the oportunity to have many. How many partners men say they want in surveys don`t necessarily tell us… Read more »
Good article throughout, but it was the first point that got me thinking: “1. Understand that rape and assault aren’t sex.” I would also think emphasizing the reverse is important in this dynamic as well: That sex ISN’T rape or assault. Seems like even when it’s done right, sex gets a bad name; like it has to be apologized for, qualified, licensed & contained- though it may not live in the same house as ‘rape’ or ‘assault’ – but they both live on the same block, in the same seedy neighborhood, that sort of thing. I could be wrong on this,… Read more »
Hi Mostly,
I agree with you that sexuality has something of a bad name in our culture. I’ve generally heard that attributed to our Puritan heritage, but I’ve not spent any real time researching the roots of this.
I like your notion of emphasizing “that sex ISN’T rape or assault” and I think we share the same understanding of these issues: different pools (with different swimmers), to use your analogy. And yes, I’m arguing that “male sexuality itself is perceived as threatening when it is not.” It took me 1,000+ words to say that & you did it in 11.
Guys, please also consider that some of our fears are also rooted in biological reality, not Puritan heritage or culture. Even if intercouse is completely concensual and we love you, it can have drastic life-and-death physical consequences for us, that it does not have for you. Your penis inside our reproductive organs can – and does, even at times despite the use of artificial contraception – literally cause a new human life to begin growing inside us. That’s a really big deal. And in the past, more so than now, this often lead to serious risk, painful complication and even… Read more »
@Sarah…
You have a good point regarding fear and consequences of sexual intercourse.
Over 30,000 people die from auto accidents each year in America. Does this mean we need to fear the car. Yes we do. We need to drive more carefully and not take undue risks. So, fear can be controlled with appropriate behavior. Pregnancy risk(s) can be managed is my point.
So, it should not boil down to a fear of men because the “penis and semen can be a deadly weapon.” Again, think about managing risk instead of avoiding risk.
Jules, I think you missed my point.
Sarah,
How does your assertion fit in this discussion. I agree with the physical risk of sex being greater for women, typically. I think you use some pretty dramatic language to make your point, though, which often indicates that there’s some meaning intended beyond that mere assertion, and so I’m reluctant to agree with that additional meaning, not knowing what it might be.
But even if I accept your point without that qualification, where does your point take this conversation?
Hi Adrian, There was mention, above, of our attitudes towards sexuality being a result of neg CULTURAL attitudes towards sex (even mention of “puritanical roots”). My point was to ask those discussing the issue to consider biology, itself. And how historically (and even today, despite medical technology), penis-inside-vagina intercourse has life-and-death consequences to the female body that it does not have to the male body. Due to biology, and not culture. I think it’s rational to consider how that fact affects our fears, reservations – and even our perception of male sexuality, itself. Not all men are threatening, or even… Read more »
“There are biological realities that make male sexuality, in general, a very real and rational threat to female bodies and lives, in ways that it is not, to male bodies and lives.” Sarah, I must say I find your argument here dubious at best; and contentious at less than best. ‘A very real and rational threat to bodies and lives’? My goodness- I’ve heard the Soviet nuclear arsenal described in less dire, divisive & foreboding terms. Nothing undermines trust and credibility like vainglorious hyperbole. I’ve heard people cite pregnancy motility rates as cause for increases in prenatal care, socialized medicine, and demographic/health… Read more »
Hi Mostly, Well, you’ve never heard it before today. But at least now you have heard it and can give it some thought and consideration! Regarding STDs – good point. Though its repeatedly noted that STDs are transmitted from male to female at higher rates than female to male. Due to anatomy (female reprductive tissue and organs are internal and very findamentally different, and more sensitive than male EXTERNAL genetalia that is covered with skin). Don’t forget about HPV and how frequently women have expensive and painful cervical cryo procedures, due to HPV and cervical displaysia. HPV is transmitted by… Read more »
Chlamydia can cause infertility in men too.
And men don’t freak out over odors, secretion and itching after sex? Riiiiiight.
Again, Sarah – I strongly suggest you need to listen more.
*sigh* Sarah: Though its repeatedly noted that STDs are transmitted from male to female at higher rates than female to male. May be the case for some STD’s, but aren’t for all. For instance Chlamydia has a 40-50% chance of infection for both men and women during vaginal intercourse.. The same goes for HPV. Women has twice as high a risk for getting Gonorrhea from an infected partner than a man, but this is offset by Gonorrhea being asymptomatic half the time for women, thus increasing the time they are an infection risk towards their partners. Between the ages of… Read more »
@Sarah… “Regarding STDs – good point. Though its repeatedly noted that STDs are transmitted from male to female at higher rates than female to male. Due to anatomy (female reprductive tissue and organs are internal and very findamentally different, and more sensitive than male EXTERNAL genetalia that is covered with skin).” OK. While this is true, do you know that only a few men are the ones spreading STDs and STIs to women? It is estimated that 25% of women in NYC have genital herpes. Do 25% of men have genital herpes in NYC? NO! It’s around 11%. Now, what… Read more »
Mostly, hi again,
Sorry this also reminds me of that survey data – I’m sure you’ve heard this before. About women and men being asked about their fears of one another.
Supposedly – when men are asked what they fear most about women it’s that women will “laugh at them”.
When women are asked the same question vice versa, the response is that their biggest fear is that a man will kill them.
Both men and women express having “fears”, but there’s a really big difference between “biggest fears”. LAUGHTER versus bodily harm/DEATH.
Can we please just stop with this Oppression Olympics crap?
“This also reminds me of that survey data – I’m sure you’ve heard this before. About women and men being asked about their fears of one another. Supposedly – when men are asked what they fear most about women it’s that women will ‘laugh at them’. When women are asked the same question vice versa, the response is that their biggest fear is that a man will kill them. Both men and women express having ‘fears’, but there’s a really big difference between ‘biggest fears’. LAUGHTER versus bodily harm/DEATH.” Sarah, There is a huge difference between coercion (that is, actively seeking and engendering fear… Read more »
This mind-numbingly generalizing soundbite that men are afraid of being laughed at by women while women are afraid of men killing them is here credited to a survey. Unless someone can dig up this survey/study I am inclined to consider the existence of such a study an urban myth. The quote At core, men are afraid women will laugh at them, while at core, women are afraid men will kill them. and this similar quote Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death is attributed to Gavin Becker’s book… Read more »
Tamen and Mostly – I am unable to directly reply to your comments (the “Reply” icon is not appearing beneath your comments here). But I want to acknowledge the info you provided here.
It was lazy/sloppy of me to post what I did here. Thank you for providing this info – and your additional thoughts, too. And I agree with you, Tamen, “Asking one male friend does not a survey make.”
Totally, yes! Agreed.
Sarah,
That does make sense, and I think I understand your point. But as you say or at least imply, male sexuality generally isn’t intended to be threatening, and women (and thoughtful men, who are the men we’re really talking about, right?) can do a lot to minimize any practical threat men’s sexuality presents. In that safer context, isn’t it time to let go of ideas about threats that are no longer particularly threatening?
Hi Adrian, Wow, I have a couple of different replies! But first a question: are you sure male sexuality isn’t INTENDED to be threatening? Don’t be me wrong, I think there are so many wonderful men that have absolutely no desire to be in any way threatening – no personal desire at all, and instead a desire to rise above our biology and design. But what about in our DESIGN and nature’s INTENTION for us? Isn’t the male of most species designed in order to be able to overpower the female, for the sake of reproduction and continuation of the… Read more »
So LISTEN. LISTEN when men tell you that according to their experience of things your analogies are effectively ragging on men.
This is the same sort of naturalistic-fallacy-laden that feminists rightly rail against, and I see no reason to put up with the same. Even if we accept your personification-of-nature’s intention to make penises weapons, that doesn’t mean we treat should penises as weapons. That doesn’t mean we should treat male sexuality as threatening. You are trying to get an “ought” from an “is”.
Should read “naturalistic-fallacy-laden nonsense”
And also “should treat” later on, not “treat should” -_-
Hi OirishM, I hear you. At the same time, I have what seems to be a different point of view than you. Personally, I respect your right to a point of view that differs from mine, and to express what’s in your heart and mind. I can understand if my POV is unappealing to you, or if you do not agree with me (that’s okay). Differing views and ideas can help each of us to learn and grow! But your personal dislike – and applied pressure – aren’t reason enough to make me RETRACT my own personal POV. It’s my… Read more »
“But what about in our DESIGN and nature’s INTENTION for us? Isn’t the male of most species designed in order to be able to overpower the female, for the sake of reproduction and continuation of the species?” As much as I dislike political correctness, this part is getting a bit disturbingly Darwinian for me: By that broad a definition of ‘biological determinism’ we might as well forgo all of our altruistic laws and customs; it opens up table for everything from forced eugenics to euthanasia. In ‘nature’ the weak perish, or adapt, or both: Again, it’s another binary, one that… Read more »
Hi Mostly, I hear you. Personally, I do not think that that acknowledging biology (realities of our male and female bodily construction, and how those realities may have helped us in the past, and continue to have an impact on us in the present) is any kind of rational reason to FORGO our laws and customs. Or to allow ‘nature’ to “dictate it’s ‘intention’ upon us unchecked”. This is just my personal opinion: but I think it’s good and helpful to consider the realities of our bodies, how they function and why – in attempting to understand both male and… Read more »
Sarah, I appreciate your effort to stay with this discussion, considering the heat you’re getting. So maybe I’ll add a little. When I wrote about intention, I meant in reference to conscious intent on the part of men interacting with women (or other men, for that matter). I don’t think most men intend harm. If there’s any merit to your argument that men are inherently and particularly dangerous, apparently regardless of how they actually behave, then men acting against their inherent nature would seem to be evidence of the type of “intent” I’m suggesting. If what you’re saying is that… Read more »
Hi Adrian! Partial reply at the moment. Need more info from you! Can you tell me more about what you meant here? You’d said, “What you’re saying seems analogous to saying that this history and some current observations mean that all women are inherently gold diggers…” What have I said about “all men” that is at all even close to being analogous? I def don’t think “all men” are anything that we could put a label on. And I also agree with you in your belief that most men do not mean harm (and I THINK I’ve stated that… I… Read more »
Hi Adrian, Oh, okay, I hear what you are saying. But I think I’m being very misunderstood! I do. But I also definitely don’t think you seem “dense” – at all. I’ve been giving only partial replies to your comments because you offer so much to chew on and consider. This might be long. I want to try to get it right this time, in explaining my point of view! Could you forget for right now about that part about males of species “overpowering” females, in order to ensure reproduction? I shouldn’t have even gone down that road, especially with… Read more »
Adrian, crap, sorry my previous reply ended up so darn long! I should’ve edited it down. Good luck wading through that monster of a “manifesto”, ha ha ha! Sorry. Ugh.
I really want to be understood – and think I have something meaningful to offer, that could potentially help both men and women in this area, on this topic. Meanwhile, I’m admittedly NOT the most clear/concise writer, that’s for sure!
Sarah, I’m not sure where this post will land, but it’s in response to your 9:55 AM post from 7/9/13. I think we had some “clear only if known” stuff going on, at least from my end. When you spell out what you mean by threatening, it makes complete sense. I was at walking briskly toward conclusions that were a combination of my own sometimes justifiable defensiveness and a shorthand in your earlier comments. So no need to apologize for the length of your reply or for being determined to be understood. Your thoroughness and examples clarified your position quite… Read more »
“But what about in our DESIGN and nature’s INTENTION for us? Isn’t the male of most species designed in order to be able to overpower the female, for the sake of reproduction and continuation of the species? ” Practically, born to rape. It sounds like the sexophobic second wave meme, all men are rapist, witch is not true. No its not the design of the nature to rape women, but to have sex with women, witch is different. Having sex with a woman, it requires she is aroused, witch make it easier to penetrate and easier to impregnate. And a… Read more »
Sarah, I think you’ve said that male sexuality is by design a “real and rational threat”. You say repeatedly that many men are fine and decent people, yet it would seem from your comments that these fine and decent men are none the less threatening to women. Do I misunderstand? I can be dense. Or when you say “male” are you referring to men who are the problem, the men who frankly make it at least a bit more difficult and confounding for the rest of us who are not dicks, or at least not just dicks, to connect with… Read more »
@Sarah Radford
“But what about in our DESIGN and nature’s INTENTION for us? Isn’t the male of most species designed in order to be able to overpower the female, for the sake of reproduction and continuation of the species? ”
considering that in many species the female is significantly larger than the male…. no.
Hi Sarah
This is so important! And I don’t think men grasp what you say here Sarah.
Sex for woman is never “only sex”.
And it is also a main difference between rape of a man an rape of a woman.
Imagine rape historically when you are not on contraceptives. Even today many women are not on the pill,and no contraceptives are 100% safe.
Women are vulnerable in a way totally different from men.
Imagine being raped, and then being charged child support. Oh wait, you don’t have to imagine. It happens. Read the survivors’ accounts. There are differences women usually don’t grasp either about the realities of being male and raped by a woman.
We just want the rapes carried out by women acknowledged, legally, as rapes. Just because one rape is different from the next does not mean it is not rape.
It happens, like, ultra rarely.
So because its rare it should just be allowed to continue?
Imagine rape historically when you are not on contraceptives. Even today many women are not on the pill,and no contraceptives are 100% safe. Women are vulnerable in a way totally different from men. That is very true. And while looking at rape from a historic angle there is a matter that even in this day and age it is still argued whether or not a female can rape a male. Again this is not to try to take away from the very real risks that women but to add in the very real risks that male face when it comes… Read more »
Hi Danny Being on this website has educated me about lots of things,like the high percentage of male incels and the rape of men. And I am thankful that men tell us about it and all the harm it does. As a women I do NOT see rape of men less serious than rape of women,but my guess is that we experience it differently. One is not more gruesome than than the other,but they are not the same. And it would surprise me if our sexual orientation did not explain some of the difference in how experience rape. Imagine a… Read more »
For the same reason as men rape women, Iben – power.
Imagine a gay man raped by a man, this can happen in various ways as we know. Imagine a heterosexual man raped by a man( let’s say anal ). Imagine a lesbian women raped by a man or a woman. Imagine a heterosexual woman raped by vaginal penetration by a man. Maybe I am totally naive,but I think one of the things that what hurts it most long term is a rape that happens the same way as you like to have sex when you make love. This is pointless. There are so many individual reactions to being raped that… Read more »
As a women I do NOT see rape of men less serious than rape of women,but my guess is that we experience it differently. One is not more gruesome than than the other,but they are not the same. Agreed. Considering how the experience varies from woman to woman or man to man there is not question that there will be differences once you start looking at differences in gender (and not just the victim but the assailant as well). Maybe I am totally naive,but I think one of the things that what hurts it most long term is a rape… Read more »
Pregnacy aside, STDs are a hazard (a life threatening hazard) to both men and women alike, so in that sense at least, sex is not “only sex” for men either.
I also feel inclined to point out once again that ‘sex ISN’T rape or assault’ – Fear of rape/assault is not the same as fear of sex; though both can result in undesired pregnancy.
Thanks, Turid. I get the feeling some people think I’m bashing men here. Which is not my intention – at all. I love the men I in my life and freaking detest man-bashing!!! My wish is that we can each (men and women) really see and honor one another, according to the actual biological realities that we each face and live with, inside our very differently functioning (differently affected) bodies. Versus dismissing or covering-up our true physical realities, in favor of more pleasant sugar-coated versions of how we wish things were instead, or how our current culture tells us things… Read more »
Versus dismissing or covering-up our true physical realities, in favor of more pleasant sugar-coated versions of how we wish things were instead, or how our current culture tells us things “should be”. But that’s what we DO, as humans. Because we AREN’T slaves to what nature dictates. According to nature a vast number of us would die off young from tooth disease, or crap eyesight, or heart defects. But we overcome them. I see your appeal to the supposed natural “intentions” of threatening male sexuality and that we should see it that way as no different to someone saying we… Read more »
Personally I really like your analogy about nature “intending that our teeth to rot”. But I don’t agree with the statement that we therefore “shouldn’t have dentistry”!!! That is not in line with MY logic.
I agree with you that we are NOT slaves to what nature dictates. Totally! So true, in my view.
But if a dentist (for example) DENIES what nature dictates re: our teeth and gums, how on earth can he help to overcome it?
If we first acknowledge the fundamental realities, we then know what it is that we are not willing to accept.
Ugh sorry my last comment (re: dentistry analogy) was NOT worded well. I was typing quickly via my phone. Sorry and hope it kinda makes sense??!
You are making value judgements, using human values, on an inanimate process. You are saying we should see human male sexuality as threatening because “nature intended it that way”. Do you have any idea, Sarah, the amount of SHIT that has been inflicted on the human race because of ideas like yours? Scientific racism. The holocaust. Basically anything with a eugenic or social-Darwinist bent. No, I will not, as a man, march meekly and blindly into that sort of thinking about myself. You are saying the gender equivalent of “it’s in the nature of black people to steal”. Frankly, I… Read more »
OirishM, shoot, sorry. I really didn’t mean to upset you, personally, with my individual point of view and ideas. I’m really just one individual human being, making no claims of being some special keeper of “the truth”. And it’s okay with me if you hold views that differ from mine. By expressing myself I’m not insisting that you agree with me!
I respect your right to your own individual point of view and ideas. I am hearing you and giving consideration to everything you’re saying, even if I don’t instantly AGREE with you!
Oirish, hey also – I think I do encourage the same thing being done for men. Truly. I think it’s really important to closely examine how the male body is constructed, and also how “wiring” (again I’m using that word really loosely, as shorthand) that helped us to survive in the past still exists inside of us now, despite the very DIFFERENT conditions that many of us live in today, in the modern developed world. I think we need to honor and show RESPECT to male bodies, male psychology, and male feelings/hopes/fears in the ways that they differ from the… Read more »
Turid “This is so important! And I don’t think men grasp what you say here Sarah. Sex for woman is never “only sex”.” How do you know? you cannot speak for all women, nor you know all women. So maybe for YOU sex is never sex, but this may not be true for everyone else. “And it is also a main difference between rape of a man an rape of a woman.” that up to the victim to define…. I know its hard to believe or understand. Maybe because of how people have been raised or indoctrinated by the society.… Read more »
Penises are weapons even when we love you?
That’s a bit of a contradiction in terms, if not veering into outright misandry.
I don’t think it’s a contradiction. Physical realities of our bodies (and the will/intention of nature) can carry on in a direction that’s independent of, or even in opposition to our personal sentiments and will. I can genuimely love you – but then also unintentionally transfer a deadly illness to you by coughing on you while I’m hugging you, for example. My intention may’ve been to express affection – the outcome could, in reality, cause you suffering and harm. Stated differently: consequence does not always indicate or reflect the sentiments or intentions in someone’s heart. Being aware of – and… Read more »
“Stated differently” is right. Might want to use that language in future.
Someone who describes male body parts as akin to weaponry – doesn’t exactly scream “good faith”.
I’m using that as metaphor only. Regarding biology and natural physical CONSEQUENCES – not human INTENTIONS.
I didn’t invent human biology, and human reproductive life/death realities. 🙂
If it was up to me, and I could reinvent human bodies, I would opt to eliminate a lot of the physical pain and suffering, injury, and death that results from intercourse, pregnancy and childbirth.
Weapons necessitate human intent. A sword is nothing without a human wielding it. If your intent was not to refer to intentions, then a different metaphor may be required.
I’m trying to get you to stop and to listen to what is actually being said to you here, because continued use of that analogy demonstrates an apparent failure to communicate. And frankly, it’s a pretty offensive one, and I have every expectation I’d be pilloried if I spoke of female anatomy in similar terms.
Oops yeah, it wouldn’t apply to female anatomy. Because females do not insert an organ of their bodies into the INSIDE a delicate organ of men’s bodies, then shoot a fluid into the inside of that organ, a fluid that can cause a new human being to grow inside of the man’s body, and that can cause serious complication and even death. I get what you mean about a weapon is nothing without intent. A sword is an inanimate object. Our bodies are not. We have intentions. But NATURE also has intentions and objectives. Nature “wields” the sword in this… Read more »
No, nature is not a person. The only agents with intent here are the men whose body parts you have offensively referred to as weaponry. As for female anatomy, see the point earlier about STDs being passed on from females, I’ll also raise social consequences as a result of sex like child support again. I keep giving you the chance to retract your offensive analogy or at least to highlight how your analogy might come across as offensive to men, but instead of acknowledge that you’d rather keep digging yourself into a hole. If that’s what you really want to… Read more »
Unharmed physically.
Partly puritan, yes, but even what we term as “puritan” when it comes to attitudes to sex is older than “puritan” when we refer to the Seventeenth Century sect of religion – even the Pagan Romans were offended by the sexual expressiveness of the Pagan Greeks when they first invaded, so it’s not purely a Judeo-Christian thing even; and so what’s going on currently could be seen in terms of a long-term historical perspective, but can be seen as part of a short-term cycle. I just finished writing the first draft of a short play and as I was writing… Read more »
I think all the emphasis on men’s feelings and emotions is also a disservice to us. At least us married guys. My wife’s already convinced that her emotional needs are more important than my sexual needs. The truth, as you pointed out in the article, may be that most guys are not screwing around or looking for someone new every weekend. But the link backing that up is based on a survey of how many partners did they have, not how many did they want. The truth about my own male life is that marriage has been a huge sexual… Read more »
I disagree completely that we shouldn’t emphasize mens’ feelings. I’m going to slightly alter the phrasing of your last paragraph: The answer to “Men are dogs” should be “Men have feelings, too – they just have feelings that work differently than women’s feelings.” It does some disservice by bowing to a gender binary, but it also allows men to feel their feelings without guilt. As for your personal sex life, point 2 should be your focus in this article. Not only for you, but for your wife, as well (so point 3, too). If you feel your wife is convinced… Read more »
Hi ‘a guy’, First, I’m sorry to hear that your marriage isn’t satisfying your sexual needs. Long term monogamous marriage requires a lot of tradeoffs and compromises. I agree with Shmuel that you & your wife need to talk about it and see if you can find a solution. Second, and to be clear, I didn’t focus on feelings and I don’t think that emphasizing or prioritizing men’s feelings will change the general populace’s understanding of male sexuality. I do think that acknowledging feelings is part of the issue (and thus gets mentioned in #5), but it’s only one part… Read more »
“Men are men” is absolutely tautologous, and the label “man” is meaningless. As is the label “woman”, for that matter.
Yes, and it runs into the danger of being interpreted as “boys will be boys”; it’s almost like surrendering to the idea that the attribute of gender is the defining feature of a person, rather than merely an attribute amongst many others.
Hold on, how did dogs get such a bad press in the first place? Aren’t they considered to be the faithful of animals? Intelligent? Good parents? Sensitive? Not really that offensive a comparison in that light.
If you’re not getting sex from your wife you aren’t creating foreplay with her brain … that’s where it starts. We can’t just turn it on and off by demand like men can, it’s a slow burn.
Right! Unless he is claiming that he merely wants more women. You know. Because he’s a man.
As I reposted this on my Facebook: It would also help if there was ANY medical, psychological, or sociological research going into it. But that would require actually studying teh menz, praise be to the extremely few that do.
There are some indirect references to that research here, primarily through other summaries. If you want something that is more explicitly research based, try my book “Challenging Casanova,” which draws from over 500 studies published in psychology, sociology, and public health journals.
More details at http://www.challengingcasanova.com
Sold! As a nursing student, my main focus in my studies has been on male-specific diseases and male sexuality. It constantly confounds me how difficult it is to find decent research on the subject.
Excellent. Good luck in your studies.
Thank you for an overall strong approach to an ever-timely topic, but sex as something your partner “agrees to let” you do has no place in a transformative view of male sexuality. Men deserve to think and hear about sex as something partners WANT to do with them– the bottom bar needs to be mutual desire, with no room for nonconsensual compliance.
Tree
Seattle, WA
Good point Tree. I agree that placing mutual desire at the center of our notions of sexuality would be transformative.
The number of men who commit crimes period is a very very tiny percentage of the entire adult male population. It’s the same with those who spread STDs, STI…..usually they are oversexualized innoculators.
Consider this fact: 50% of adult black women have genital herpes (ok 48%). See CDC.gov if you do not believe me. But, do 50% of black men have genital herpes? NO! Why? Because, the black women are having sex with these high risk oversexualized men.
The same goes for rape stats………a few men are the culprits.
Jules,
I agree that it’s a small % of men who commit rape & other sex-related crimes, as well as the fact that a small % of men with STIs spread them around widely. I think we all need to understand these stats and not blame all guys for the behavior of a small %.
I would also add challenging people who depend on the stereotypes to push ideological notions. We know that even though most sex crimes are committed by men most men are not sex criminals. Yet and still we see very dangerous ideas such as holding the actions of those few men up as representation of the whole AND THEN turning around and putting the onus on men to dispell such images. (In short we need to challenge the idea of, “We know that most men are sex criminals but it should still be on men to do something about the negative… Read more »
I agree Danny.
Danny, they don’t like my posts here, I have been silenced once again. But I agree, demonizing men arbitrarily is wrong.
That is an excellent article. I agree that all men are not rapists. I love #6. American Pie and Porky’s just make men look bad. We should not watch those type of movies. They hurt both men and women.
Thanks JoAnne. And yet we did watch those movies, a lot. Porky’s basically invented the “sex comedy” genre; there were 3 of them. There were 7 American Pie movies, although some were straight-to-video. The first AP movie netted over $200 Million and I once saw a figure of $750 net for all 7.
Why would a film about some men make men look bad (as a whole)?
That quote isn’t from my article; see #6 for full text. It’s not those films in singularity (or as a duet, since I mentioned two), it’s the endless repetition of a plot that focuses on a small group of guys trying to get laid and engaging in a broad variety of risky activities (incl lying & getting women drunk so they can take advantage of them). I’ll guess that there are 3-4 of these movies each year. And then there are the TV characters that also repeat & reinforce this stereotype. To the extent that people – especially teens, who… Read more »
I was quoting JoAnne’s post. The comment nesting here is not very noticeable.
lol @ “I agree that all men are not rapists”
Sounds good to me. For #4, the one about calling people on their generalizations, I would go one step further and maybe ask it in a more pointed way. If a woman says all men are dogs, ask her if she includes her father in that, or her son(s) if she has any. It’s not very flattering to the woman herself if she says something like that — her mother had sex with a dog and that produced her? Very sad way to see oneself. One time a woman told me that men are dogs, to which I responded, “if… Read more »
Hi Steve,
I’m with you when you ask about dad/son, but I’d probably shy away from the animal references. To me, that seems like a sure way to get people arguing but not really listening.
For me, it’s about getting someone to think differently by getting them to think about the people they know. If they rattle off 10 guys in their life and 2 (or fewer) are “dogs,” I’d ask how that 80% (or higher) connects to the stereotype.
Publish the data on the rate at which women force others to penetrate them alongside the rate at which men forcibly penetrate others.
Stop calling it not rape women do it and rape when men do it.
And there you have the very simple formula for dispelling the myth that rape is generally male perpetrated.
Hi Orchid.
There’s no doubt that men are more likely to commit rape or sexual assault than women. My point is that it’s only a small % of men who do this, so when we generalize to things like “all men are rapists,” we’re judging the vast majority by the actions of a small minority.
Per my suggestion #1, rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power to force someone to do something sexual they don’t want to do. Sex is about mutual consent & pleasure; rape doesn’t include consent.
You haven’t seen the data on female rape from the CDC, have you? Actual rape, not what the CDC defines as rape.
Not really sure what you’re talking about Diz or how it relates to what I’ve written.
I know what Diz is saying. Forced sex currently isn’t usually counted as rape if it’s perpetuated by women because it doesn’t involve penetration, but once you redefine all forced sex as rape the statistics even out, so in fact contrary to what you’re saying there IS doubt that men are more likely to commit rape or sexual assault than women. How that relates to the article is it makes it clear that male sexuality isn’t any more aggressive or deserving of demonisation than female sexuality. Even if we say only a small percentage of men rape, if it’s still… Read more »
Ah, thanks Joseph. That makes sense now.
“but once you redefine all forced sex as rape the statistics even out”
LOL no way.
Well please share the data you’re referring to, Orchid. I’d be very interested to see.
I’d also be interested to see how this compares male rape of female; male rape of male, female of male, and female of female.
I also would be interested in the DV stats and definitions of DV used.
Thank you
Hi Andrew
Of course there is no doubt that men are more likely to rape. We only count it as rape if someone forcibly penetrates someone else, and ignore people forcing others to penetrate them.
Were we to all of a sudden reverse it, there would be no doubt that women are more likely to rape.
Ah, now I follow you Orchid. I’m not sure where you’re going with this or how it relates to what I wrote.
I was saying that a simple way to stop male sexuality being demonized is to collect and publish the data on female pedophilia and females forcing adults to penetrate them alongside the data for men committing these crimes. Same goes for domestic violence.
Then the public would know these things are not gendered.
Also child abuse, the public should know that the main caregiver and not men commit most child abuse and that child abuse is correlated to dysfunctional behaviour in adults.
First, we would need some legislation to stop the groups that mislead the public on these things.
Ah, now I get it Orchid. I agree that we need good information and it needs to be widely known (see #2). My experience says that giving people information alone isn’t sufficient; they also need a (new/different) way to think about the information they have.
Look at it this way.
If we could sue and have the people that put out all the violence against women information arrested for hate speech, and make it a legal requirement that abuse services and PSA do not present misleading information by omitting the stats for female perpetration, the whole perception would change.
Now I follow you Orchid. If the stats demonstrated that coerced sex were being perpetrated by men & women at equal rates (and I’m taking your word that the stats _would_ show that), then it would change some of the argument. However, until the legal definitions and tracking change & can show that, all men are held responsible for the action of a small number of men. I’m not willing to wait for the stats to change.
In addition, it’s clear that not everyone understands the boundary between consensual sex & rape. See; Steubenville & media coverage of it.
Rape is not “forcing someone to penetrate” your own body, however. It’s forcibly penetrating someone else’s body. I’m not saying females can’t or don’t do this. But it requires them penetrating the other person’s body, not forcing penetration of their own body.
I strongly disagree. The definition of rape involves any penetration forced – it could involve a penis and a vagina/mouth/anus/other, fingers and a vagina/mouth/anus/other, or phallic equivalent and a vagina/mouth/anus/other. Forced penetration, regardless of who’s forcing which side of the equation, is rape. Just because the dictionary hasn’t caught up to current thought on gender equality doesn’t mean it’s any less of a case of rape.
Yes. I agree that it can involve all those things and body parts. But the person being raped is the one being penetrated. By definition.
IE: If you hold a gun to my head and force me to insert an object or my fingers into your anus, I am being threatened (and you are committing a crime). But you are not raping me.
And that’s the problem. In your scenario, ” If you hold a gun to my head and force me to insert an object or my fingers into your anus, I am being threatened (and you are committing a crime). But you are not raping me.” you are being forced to perform a sex act against your will how that is not considered rape. In short its basically saying, “Its rape is only when the person that was penetrated isn’t consenting.”. I can’t speak for anyone else but if someone held you at gun point to make you penetrate them I’d… Read more »
Oops I meant “E.G.” and not “I.E.”. Sorry!