Andrew Smiler argues that we can help everyone by teaching boys about the artificial beauty we see.
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Imagine a group of 13 year old girls intensely discussing a picture of a fashion model from Seventeen or Vogue. It’s not hard to imagine the girls ooh-ing and ahh-ing over the model’s beauty and talking about how they hope to Look. Just. Like. That when they get older.
If you live in the West, you can probably spin this scene on its head by adding a teacher (or some other adult) who helps the girls understand all the ways in which this image is manufactured. Maybe the teacher even shows this Dove video of a model being prepared for a photo-shoot. Despite being pretty—she’s an employed model—and being made up, the producers digitally alter her appearance by lengthening her neck and changing the line of her shoulders.
In this classroom setting, the girls are supposed to learn that beauty isn’t everything, and that all those amazing female faces and bodies they see in advertisements and on others screens aren’t natural. Implicitly, they learn that even model-pretty isn’t necessarily pretty enough. Other activities that are part of these programs may give girls an even more thorough understanding of the artificiality of what they see on screen, may help girls find their own strengths (beyond appearance), and may help boost their self-esteem.
But one thing you’re very unlikely to find in this setting is boys.
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There’s no doubt that personal appearance is a less prominent issue for boys than girls. Boys and men suffer from eating disorders at notably lower rates than their female peers, even when guys suffering from “Bigorexia” (officially, a specific type of Body Dysmorphic Disorder) are included. Data from the CDC’s Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System indicate that about 3.7% of 12th grade American boys had used steroids illicitly at least once among those surveyed in 2011, down from a high of 6.4% in 2003. The only reason to use those steroids is to get bigger.
Men’s bodily concerns aren’t limited to bulking up. The American Society of Plastic Surgeons reported that men accounted for about 9% of all elective cosmetic surgeries in 2012, totaling about 1.3 million procedures. Approximately 1 million were minimally-invasive procedures that could be performed in the doctor’s office, with Botox injections, laser hair removal, and microdermabrasion leading the way.
If we’re genuinely worried about boys—and the perpetual crisis around boys makes me think we probably are—then you’d think there would be programs out there to help boys. Good luck finding one. My Google search to “develop positive body image for boys” didn’t lead to any male-specific programs. There’s such a dearth of male-oriented programs that the first page of results includes a program specifically for girls and three of the four images visible include only girls.
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There’s no reason to think that what’s happened to girls won’t happen to guys. The statistics say it’s already happening. Girls are clear that they’re concerned with their appearance because being that thin gives them status among other girls and (they think) will make them attractive to boys; it’s part of the reason that about 80% of 10 year olds have been on a diet. Boys are trying to bulk up for exactly the same reasons: to earn status from other guys and be attractive to girls.
In addition to teaching girls how unattainable that female body is, we need to start teaching boys how difficult those male bodies are to achieve. We should teach boys what’s involved in creating an image for mass consumption, a component of media literacy, so they gain a better understanding of exactly what they’re seeing. I can’t figure out why we haven’t started yet. I understand that this is a less frequently occurring problem for boys than for girls, but “less of a problem” isn’t the same thing as “not a problem.”
I understand that this is a less frequently occurring problem for boys than for girls, but “less of a problem” isn’t the same thing as “not a problem.”
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There’s no reason to stop there. If we’re going to spend all this time helping boys understand and deconstruct images of the ideal male body, then we should also train them to use those same skills examining issues of the ideal female body. Doing so could take some of the pressure off girls to achieve that thin ideal. Of course, that means we should also teach girls how to deconstruct the idealized male.
Recent outrage over the “thin ideal” female body was especially prominent when Disney redrew Brave’s Merida to look more “princess-like,” because apparently princesses only look one way. Other folks pointed out that even the females at Monster University shared that particular body; the males were widely varied. And then there’s the “soft porn” of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue and its related products. Here in 2013, we’re still more likely to see a model on the cover of SI than a female athlete, and the models get exactly one cover per year.
That said, I can imagine the challenges of showing a picture of a female model to a group of middle (or high) school boys and opening the floor for comments. Some of those concerns rely on a stereotypical view of male sexuality that’s largely incorrect, although boys often feel compelled to conform to the image. But if the teacher knows what he or she is doing, and the kids understand this is about education and not just time to goof off, they’ll get to work.
If we really want our sons (and our daughters) to understand and thrive in the culture they’re being raised in, then we need to make sure they have the right tools and know how to use them.
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This post is republished on Medium.
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photo credit: CDS Nutrition/flickr
[Author’s note: This picture is of 39 year old Shawn Phillips. That’s his real body, with no airbrushing or digital manipulation.]
Bravo Andrew. This is such an important topic. The issues boys have with body image is just as significant as of that with girls. I believe that because it’s not discussed, an added level of shame manifests itself in young boys and men. I have 2 teenage sons and a teenage daughter. My daughter and I get so many amazing opportunities to discuss body image because there’s so much discussion and information being bombarded at us from every direction. Boys issues totally fly under the radar. I think it only adds to a sense of isolation for boys. They internalize… Read more »
Hi Andrew, Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed the article and the discussion it has prompted. Encouraging this type of topic in our discourse is a great sign for us and enabling those who don’t fit with such ideals. Male physiological “ideals” of fit, buff men are healthier than the “skinny” image that is often enforced by the media upon females, and in this way, the actual physical goal is not such a health concern for young men striving to be fitter (luckily). However, the issue that resonates with me is how we can learn how to be… Read more »
Gezuz
If this were a party you’d both long been kicked out.
Consider last call…
I’d like to recognize Andrew’s (Smiler) thoughtful, heartfelt response to me regarding the presence of my image above. I appreciate it and also want to acknowledge that I was a bit sneaky, not admitting who I was (that guy) and also quite provocative (aka reactive). I believe there are valid points to argue on both sides and lord knows I am hyper-sensitive to the abuse of image in this category of fitness and body-perfection. It’s something I have fought against for many, many years. I suspect this is no accident that this may be a fortuitous meeting, opening to much… Read more »
My HS wrestling coach blamed MTV for boys no longer showering at school after practice…
“They expect they should have those MTV abs”
And yes, by the way, the company who is using my photos is hearing from my attorneys.
I’ve also written to the editor of TGMP and asked for some considerations around the unapproved use of my image. Not to ask it be taken down, now and as the word has gotten way out that it’s used. But that it be an opening to a deeper discussion and a recognition that this is NOT “airbrushed” and not “photoshopped”… and that i Can prove.
Shawn
No one cares about your picture. They care about the topic.
***>>> THE GREAT REVEAL <<<***** So… I added a few comments with my first name, just to see if anyone had actually given any thought to the human being in the photo.. in some way, the anchor and example to this dialog… evidently, not really. Thus, I figure it's time to just say it: The photo is me, I. It's credit goes not to CDS Nutrition, the scumbags who stole it. But to me… a mid-40's father, entrepreneur and men's advocate from Colorado. Yes, a human being. With a wife, two kids and a 20 years meditation practice. I am… Read more »
The responses from the some in this thread have been very sad for me.
Mens issues on a mens site about men can’t even take top priority , how can our issues ever be given the attention they deserve if they can’t even in our own spaces.
Dear Dr. Smiler… Yes, clearly men–and the boys many remain–are not immune to body-image issues. Okay… but what do we do with that? You suggestion, “we need to start teaching boys how difficult those male bodies are to achieve…what’s involved in creating an image for mass consumption, a component of media literacy, so they gain a better understanding of exactly what they’re seeing.” So, we teach the youth how unbelievably difficult it is to attain a certain body. And we teach them how abso-fkngly difficult it is to attain wealth too. Lord forbid they seek money, prestige and status after… Read more »
Shawn, there is a difference between giving your children the tools to succeed and work hard to toward a goal with passion and courage vs leaving them to navigate the messages of society that don’t always correlate with a positive and healthy way to live. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you tell your children they can be any better than “average”. To kill their joy and passion for things even if they seem impossible. If a boy or man wants to work on his body, great! But do it in a healthy manner. Too many athletes even today… Read more »
Erin, Of course, you know you’re talking to an unrealistic comic book “hero,” right? For, as you may know my now, that photo is me. yes, a 40 something father, philosopher, seeker, meditatior, teacher, consciousness explorer… And of course, that photo is ZERO photoshopped and 100% natural. It’s just what i do well…or did for years. Now, I train and ride bikes. But I don’t confuse the times of the tour riders with my own…and I don’t let others excellence hurt my feelings. I believe the strength and the gift is in the foundation and that aspiration can and should… Read more »
Shawn, Why would I know who I was talking to? Your picture isn’t even real clear to me as to what it is. It’s great that you’ve given yourself these big and wonderful descriptive words about who you are. But I’m not sure how exactly that ties into the discussion. I never implied that people couldn’t reach “excellence”. As I re-enforced earlier. Giving your children the tools to succeed and work hard toward whatever goal or passion their heart holds is different from letting the world navigate false messages to them. If a boy wants to be the next Arnold,… Read more »
I loved it when high definition TV came out and the celebrities hated it. All of a sudden the screen showed imperfections …. Awwwww poor babies. They used to use fog lenses to even out their complexions … Guys have to realize what they see in the media are unrealistic. My wife watches some model show … the top model or something. I have to tell ya, when you look at these models without the makeup, I have no idea why they were selected.
Ouch dude… so you love it when people feel the pain of them being less than ideal?
Do you also like when kids are told they’re losers or animals are kicked?
I get it’s different but really, take a good deep look inside… what a perfect oppotrunity to take a scope to that story.
experience their own issue with something before they can even begin to offer sympathy or help to others with the same possible issue. Even if the issue they are experiencing in their own lives doesn’t happen as much to them as it may to someone else. Reading GMP for a while now, based on what I’ve observed, a lot of men begin to think about problematic images in the media when they began to more often become the subject of problematic images of the media themselves. Or once they have a daughter themselves. Once they begin to see these images… Read more »
Woops: t I must have deleted part of my first sentence by accident before posting. This is what it was suppose to say: “From what I’ve observed from people in general, it usually requires them to experience their own issue with something before they can even begin to offer sympathy or help to others with the same possible issue. “
experience their own issue with something before they can even begin to offer sympathy or help to others with the same possible issue. Yes. I know that I’ve seen women call for empathy/sympathy on the issue of body image issues…but then turn around and get bothered when men try to deal with their own issues. You can’t call for sympathy/empathy from someone when you don’t even want them to deal with issues that could result in the development of such. Its like they are saying, “I want you to understand where we’re coming from…but you can only do so by… Read more »
Danny said: “.. You can’t call for sympathy/empathy from someone when you don’t even want them to deal with issues that could result in the development of such. Its like they are saying, “I want you to understand where we’re coming from…but you can only do so by focusing on us and only us.”” I don’t think most women are really that mercenary. I don’t think women don’t want men to deal with issues they contend with. I think it has more to do with women feeling as if they actually honestly get very little real support from men when… Read more »
I don’t think most women are really that mercenary. I don’t think women don’t want men to deal with issues they contend with. I think it has more to do with women feeling as if they actually honestly get very little real support from men when it comes to the stereotypes upheld in the media about women. Maybe. Then I’ll just say they have an interesting way of expressing those feelings. I wasn’t having this discussion in order to *only* get men to see how women are treated. I should have clarified that I wasn’t trying to say you felt… Read more »
Danny said: “Maybe. Then I’ll just say they have an interesting way of expressing those feelings.” Sometimes it’s hard to put into words because you don’t even know yourself entirely why you feel a certain way about something. Sometimes we act in ways that doesn’t best explain our own position. Danny said: “But again when the response to the things that harm men is, “Now you know how we’ve been feeling for ages.” There is a lot of genuine hurt feelings on all sides of this that’s no doubt. But that kind of response in turn tells me that they… Read more »
@Erin “Sure, there are some men that may like these types of women, but then they are ususally fetishsized and called things like “chubby chasers”.” Seriously? So if a man finds the (for lack of a better term) “traditionally beautiful” women attractive, he’s shallow and contributes to the body image issues of women everywhere… but if he doesn’t, he fetishizes. Funny, no one ever tells women they fetishize tall men, for example. No, those are just “preferences.” Women have “preferences” which are fine and dandy, and don’t you dare question them, meanwhile men have “fetishes” which are gross and objectifying.… Read more »
Jax, please show me where I made a connection in my writings that men that liked “traditionally beautiful” women were automatically shallow or contributed to the body image issues of women everywhere? I am confused how you came to this conclusion about me and I’d like to know what part of my writings lead you to believe that was what I was saying? The issue is not in your attraction to a traditionally beautiful woman. The issue is not in a man’s attraction to a non-traditionally beautiful woman. To me, this is an over simplification. The issue is the focus… Read more »
30s XX here. Ok, we get it Erin. I’ve only been a visitor on this site for a short time, but of the articles I’ve read where you have commented (multiple times, saying basically the same thing) your point(s) have been: 1) Women have it really bad because the media expects us to be thin, beautiful, etc. 2) Porn=very bad, objectifying, degrading/demeaning to women; women aren’t really in control-though they readily participate 3) Because men are such robots and can’t think critically for themselves, they allow their thinking to be influenced by porn and the media (not outright said, but… Read more »
If a woman I was with her a flashback I would have stopped straight away too and done whatever possible to help her. I would have been shitting bricks wondering if my presence triggered her and wondering if I am meant to leave or not (I’d ask her). Sticking around is just a decent thing to do, it’s not her fault she had a flashback so why leave unless she wants you too. I’ve helped a few women leave abusive partners, I have given a male friend a place to stay to avoid his abusive father, if I can help… Read more »
Thanks, Archy 🙂 Yes, he is a great guy, and I’m so thankful to have him in my life, in whatever capacity. It’s good that you have been able to help people, I’m sure they are grateful.
You won’t get any arguments about porn from yours truly. There is some good stuff out there, you just have to wade through the smut to find it.
Thanks for the acknowledgement. Took a lot of work, but I got there eventually.
Take care.
Woah Leftcoster, what’s up with the person attacking and entirely misrepresenting me? Goodness. Yeah, I talk a lot about the same thing. I don’t have it all figured out, like every other person in the world. I tend to talk about porn too much but it’s only because it’s a topic that troubles me in relation to wanting to cultivate healthier relationships between men and women. I got my own struggles but that doesn’t mean I’m not an intelligent human being. It also doesn’t mean my points aren’t valid. Even if I tend to be a wordy little thing. And… Read more »
@Erin: I think I can boil your ramblings down to four points, because it basically is the same thing said a myriad of different ways. You have also been told by various men to stop saying you *know* how *most* men are, that if you actually read what they wrote that you would find some areas of agreement. Yet you insist on stating the same thing yet again. As a woman I was a little taken aback. I can only imagine how a man would feel. Furthermore, a couple of people (that I have seen) have declined to further engage… Read more »
Leftcoaster, for someone who has been a visitor for a short time, you seem to believe you have a firm grasp of the goings on. So much so that you have referred to certain posters with a lot of familiarity. Usually people that are semi-new, describing themselves as being around for a short time, aren’t usually so familiar with posters names or vocal about poster interactions with the heated reactions you’ve displayed. It’s great that you want to make a positive impact, I think that’s all most people really want. But rarely, if ever, are positive impacts done by being… Read more »
“I really don’t understand why you keep saying “Us women have had a long time and opportunity to air our frustrations/grievances…” ” Because this is an article about BOYS and men, and bringing up women’s issues is derailing. I don’t mind some derailing comments but I don’t like it when it’s pretty much the first comments, and quite often the only comments by one gender. The majority should always be about the topic at hand. Airing your frustrations on this topic too much will end up being insulting to men’s issues because too often men’s issues cannot be discussed without… Read more »
You are eager to dogmatically pursue me with blame and bombardment of what you think are all my imperfections. It takes more than one person to ‘derail” a conversation. Maybe you should focus more on your own actions instead of being so eager to police and judge others. If you did not believe my one comment was germaine to the topic, you could have ignored it and focused on the comments that you thought where. You could have even said what you thought about it once or twice. But I can’t seem to make any kind of comment without your… Read more »
“Your maind objective seems to be to “call out” others. Not to have a discussion with another or try to understand what may have caused them to say what they said in the first place. ” I do plenty of debating n discussion on these topics, I also call out sillyness. Why are you taking it so hard? It’s not intended to be someone seen so seriously as if it was a crime against humanity, it’s simply just a comment I saw that had one part that was selfish, I wanted you to know that is what I thought of… Read more »
All this junk about you being someone that “calls out others” and how you are the judge and jury to what comments are selfish or arrogant actually makes *you* sound arrogant. And it’s in complete opposition to your comments about asking me to think about how a man feels to be told how he feels by a woman. How dare you tell ask me to think about how a man feels to be told how he feels by a woman when all you DO is tell me how I feel and my intentions and what place my comments come from.… Read more »
I get it Erin, you want to be the special person who is free from criticism. You cannot handle people criticizing your words, you blow them way out of proportion and generally do not listen to their advice. You get people riled up with how you say stuff, act innocent and then surprised that someone called you out for it. Keep doing it if you want but people are going to criticize your behaviour when it’s something that others find annoying. I am seriously n utterly confused as to how someone can be so out of touch to not understand… Read more »
Danny said: “But again when the response to the things that harm men is, “Now you know how we’ve been feeling for ages.” There is a lot of genuine hurt feelings on all sides of this that’s no doubt. But that kind of response in turn tells me that they really don’t care about the other side of the coin.” I didn’t respond at all by saying “now you know how we’ve been feeling for ages.” Didn’t say you did. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t ever see men hardly talk about how they like hairy, gray, over weight women.… Read more »
Danny said: “Didn’t say you did.” You didn’t? Then how did your comment: “But again when the response to the things that harm men is, “Now you know how we’ve been feeling for ages”, fit in response to something I said? You quoted something I said and went on to talk about this comment above earlier. If you didn’t say I said that, why didn’t you respond to me directly about my direct comments instead of using an ambiguous argument about something you didn’t think I said to begin with? Danny: “Yes you are. However….” Sorry Danny but it’s not… Read more »
Sorry Danny but it’s not enough to simply say I’m wrong and offer no other kind of discussion. the discussion was the part that came after it, “….they are called that even when they really arent. Yes there are some that take it to the level of fetish and I’m not sure how I feel on that. But one thing I have noticed when it comes to women and attractiveness. In my experience if I made a comment about a woman that feel outside the conventional norm, women were more likely to disagree with my comment.” (I just realized I… Read more »
I am not really talking about specific people and their personal issues with fetishizing others. I was really talking about the way society in general seems to fetishsize women from anything from their age to their weight. Which I believe is derogatory toward both women and men. Which is why I used the example of when men are called “chubby chasers”, eluding to the idea that they simply can’t like a specific woman without her having to be a kind of fetish to him. Which is degrading to both that man and woman. I still am not understanding your point… Read more »
To me, it seems you are suggesting that women are harder critics than men themselves. I get it, *you* think women are worse than men in their judgement’s of women’s beauty. That is not the experience I’ve had where I’ve been much more accepted by other women than I have been by men. So I think it but you’ve lived otherwise? Great. Our experiences are different and there are people on both sides who could agree or disagree so I’ll just leave it at that. I understand your point of view. There is a tricky line between addressing contributing factors… Read more »
I don’t really know what you condone or don’t condone Danny. Unless I missed something, you didn’t say too much about how you delt with your friend after he said something like that.
Earlier in this thread you said that I sure seemed like I was trying to justify his behavior.
Now if you want to know how I dealt with it….
After asking why it has to be that way and he told me that’s the way he’s been treated I told him that that still doesn’t make it okay to talk about others like that.
Take it easy.
it’s wierd how NOT ONE MAN responded to Erin’s comments about how she wished, as a woman, that men would’ve rejected playboy of course they’re not going to reject it, why should a man have to give up porn, he “needs” it…just ask any man. Let’s pretend for a minute that all of the airbrushing is removed and REAL people are put on padastals in the media. There will STILL be women that are more attractive than other women and men with more muscles who got that way by eating right, exercising and not tanning and not smoking and living… Read more »
it’s wierd how NOT ONE MAN responded to Erin’s comments about how she wished, as a woman, that men would’ve rejected playboy of course they’re not going to reject it, why should a man have to give up porn, he “needs” it…just ask any man. How about because there are men that actually do reject playboy. If you want to talk about playboy specifically I own exactly two issues of that magazine. Why? Because while I know that while playboy pushes unrealistic ideas about women those two issues featured women that I find very attractive so I bought those issues.… Read more »
I’m not in the mood for a debate so I’m not going to touch Shelly’s “men need porn” with a ten foot pole, but I’d like to expand on Danny’s last point. The problem arises when people, both men and women DON’T KNOW those pictures are modified, retouched and airbrushed so they think that level of perfection is attainable. They think those people look like that and then will go crazy when no matter what they do, they cannot look like that. There will always be people who will look better than others through a combination of genetics and hard… Read more »
Has ONE WOMAN even discussed the god damn article and how it affects males yet? Or is it all about the womenz and how much their lives suck? God, at least when the males derail female threads plenty of them still talk about harms to women….
No they don’t.
Yes, they do, I’ve seen it plenty of times. It’s quite common for male derailers to say this happens to BOTH genders and that we need BOTH genders supported.
Danny: “How about because there are men that actually do reject playboy. If you want to talk about playboy specifically I own exactly two issues of that magazine. Why? Because while I know that while playboy pushes unrealistic ideas about women those two issues featured women that I find very attractive so I bought those issues. Now does that mean that I’m going around judging women based on what I saw in those two women? Of course not. So yeah its actually possible for a guy to want to look at sexy pictures and not hold women as a whole… Read more »
So it’s okay to purchase or enjoy this type of material as long as it’s of something you really really enjoy? And that I understand that its not fair to hold women to those standards. As I said Im not going around expecting women to look like those two models. Hell even if those two models don’t look the same today as they did back them I’m not going to get bent out of shape about how they are not real or something. It’s okay to objectify and stereotype and set up unrealistic expectations for women because A) men think… Read more »
Looking at nude images of a woman IS NOT OBJECTIFYING. To objectify you have to mentally see them as ONLY worth their ability to arrouse you, their sexuality. If you see a human who you find attractive in a porno, you are NOT objectifying them. If you see a human who you think is just a fucktoy, THEN you are objectifying them. This is so very very very basic, why don’t more people understand it? Sexual attraction and viewing porn is not objectification, never has been, never will be. You have to ACTIVELY see them as only worthy of sex.… Read more »
Danny: “And that I understand that its not fair to hold women to those standards. As I said Im not going around expecting women to look like those two models. Hell even if those two models don’t look the same today as they did back them I’m not going to get bent out of shape about how they are not real or something.” It sounds like the two models you bought the magazines for where of only a benefit to you in their youth. Which is another issue women are forced to contend with how society and men often objectify… Read more »
Archy: “Looking at nude images of a woman IS NOT OBJECTIFYING.” Okay. They why do you even care to talk about the way men are preceived in the media if this is truly what you believe? If you believe that nude images of women is not objectifying, then you also believe nude or buff images of other men aren’t objectifying. Which would actually make this article about men and the way they are objectified entirely mote to you right? Archy: “If you see a human who you find attractive in a porno, you are NOT objectifying them. If you see… Read more »
Splitting to multi-posts. “If you believe that nude images of women is not objectifying, then you also believe nude or buff images of other men aren’t objectifying. ” If you read the rest of the comment I do describe ways in which objectification can happen. For example, a nude woman spread eagle, doing her thing, that’s not inherently objectifying. If she is portrayed as an object though, a sex toy who’s only worth of sex, or has someone talkin to her in a manner which treats her like a sex object then yeah I find it objectifying. My point is… Read more »
“Trying to claim that those that argue for the humaness of others in medium are really the “objectifying” ones is backwards. ” Naked, just naked, If a woman is naked AT ALL in a magazine and you think it’s objectification BECAUSE they are naked then that is the problem. I didn’t make it clear enough, sorry. “But you don’t seem to think objectification happens anyway. You seem to think that objectification actually doesn’t really happen. ” This article is about self-esteem more than objectification. Do you actually read what I say? Because clearly I do say objectification does happen, so… Read more »
Erin: It sounds like the two models you bought the magazines for where of only a benefit to you in their youth. Which is another issue women are forced to contend with how society and men often objectify us based on our age. Actually one was 39 at the time 26 at the time of their Playboy appearances. Now I won’t say that women don’t have to deal with age issues but bear in mind that I’m looking at these issues at the same time that I’m also looking at the likes of Juliana Margelese and Michelle Yeoh. Danny, do… Read more »
Danny: “Actually one was 39 at the time 26 at the time of their Playboy appearances…..” I brought up the issue of “youth” because you made a comment about the women that are aging and not holding them to the same standard of their younger selves. Which is a huge issue for women in how both society and men can sometimes treat women based on age. Danny: “Yes such material does exist. What I have a problem with is that there’s is a now a presumption that every man and boy alive is drenched in the unhealthy mentalities that such… Read more »
Archy, your post that began “Looking at nude images of a woman IS NOT OBJECTIFYING etc.” was brilliant. I’m sure the first time the word “objectification” was used by a commentator to discuss attitudes to women and sexual psychology had very good reason to choose that word because it summed up an idea they were trying to get across and they knew what they were saying with it, but over the years it is just reiterated as a buzzword without thought so that many people who use it don’t know what it means anymore. It’s been broadened out to cover… Read more »
“I am sure that sometimes men may get “ignored” because it comes from a male perspective, but I think more often, there are a lot of men that don’t even want to give agency to the things women experience. ” Of the 2 women commenting so far, both have made their comments largely about women? (Unless I am missing something). Your comment reads very much like you wanting one of the only reasons you want men to talk about male issues is because it HELPS WOMEN and not to help men firstly. “I wasn’t having this discussion in order to… Read more »
Out of the 2 women that commented, they offered their own unique opinions that very well may be different than your own. No need to “oust” us. My first reaction was HONEST and TRUE. May not be the pretty little response you want but that WAS my first reaction. I’ll kindly disagree with you that it was “selfish”. especially becaues you ignored everything else I went on to say simply because I referred to my first reaction. Which I shared not to make a feel good speach but to show an open and honest opinion about how a woman can… Read more »
Your first reaction was to ask why men wanted to talk about their own issues instead of focusing all their energy in issues that affect YOU but not THEM. Let me think for a minute … Yes, that was very selfish. “The female part of me that wants men to cherish women wishes it didn’t have to be that way. The female part of me wishes that when the first Playboy came out, men would have rejected it because of the unhealthy imagery of woman it set-up from the first issue. The female part of me wishes men already saw… Read more »
Yeah if Erin cannot see this then there is no point to try explain it to her, it’s pretty obvious why it is selfish. @Erin An honest reaction can still be bad, even if you do go on to talk of the topic at hand. The worrying part is that you hear of an issue that affects men and the FIRST THOUGHT is to reframe it to how it affects women. That is selfish because it dismisses the problems men face. You may not act like that after the first thought, but I am pointing out that first thought being… Read more »
I’m sorry you didn’t like my response. But I didn’t make a response just so you would like it or me. I made it to be true to myself and my view of this topic. If you want to ignore what I said about men and body image, you are free to but it’s a baised and misaligned way to attempt to paint me. I also don’t appreciate the the attempt to devalue me and my opinion to go as far as to to say it is “bad” and “selfish” of me. I am not a bad or selfish person… Read more »
My god, how about reading what I say properly? AT NO POINT did I deny objectification happens ever. Stop misrepresenting my views, it’s annoying and childish. Your response was not the opposite of selfish, your very first thought took an issue discussed about men and reframed it about how it affects women. That is selfish, regardless of how heartfelt your response was. It’s a simple concept, you ignored an issue that affected men to think about how it affected your gender FIRST, it’s the very definition of selfish. Don’t say selfish stuff, then get called out for it, then try… Read more »
Please stop putting me down. I don’t deserve to be lecutred to about how I made a mistake when I did not make a mistake. I was very honest about my thoughts whether you found them pretty enough for you or not. My comments where raw, honest and sincereand you can either accept that and give agency to my right to express my thoughts with honesty or you can keep on attempting to degrade me and denying my opinons agency by attaching words that falsely represent where I am coming from, saying my views are simply “selfish”, “annoying” and “childish”.… Read more »
Stop hiding behind “being honest” as an excuse to make a mistake and then try act innocent, it’s childish n deceptive. You messed up, admit it and move on. You had a selfish thought, you were called out for it because men on this page found it insulting. Stop trying to deny it, if you cannot handle being called out for making a mistake then don’t bother commenting. It’s just that simple. You make a mistake, own up to it. “It’s obvious you have little respect for me and have attached more than a few negative adjectivies to who I… Read more »
Go ahead, report away. If you cannot handle someone calling you out for a single selfish part of a comment then why do you bother commenting? You’re not special, you’re not above criticism, this is a public forum and criticism is to be expected especially on topics that get derailed. If you cannot see why the men here would be annoyed at your selfish comment then why exactly are you here? Why is it so difficult to understand the offense? The fact that it was a “truthful” and honest belief from yourself simply makes it worse because you instantly ignored… Read more »
Ok, is there a better way to call out a selfish comment? What would you suggest? “I think you’re comment was quite selfish?”
I suggest you find another way to deal with your issues and learn how to talk to people in a respectful way. Even if you may not agree with them or you think they are lacking in some way where you clearly think you are better evolved in. Berating them and telling them their comments are everything from selfish to childish accomplishes absolutely nothing. When you attack people’s thoughts and insist that they are less than your own with words that demean, you shut down the communication. No one wants to listen to another person that berates their viewpoints. You… Read more »
How men are taught to view women, and how photoshop influences male expectations of women, most certainly affects men. Not once did I say photoshopping male images isn’t concerning, I merely made the point that in the larger scheme of things, women are more negatively affected by unrealistic depictions of women’s bodies in the media. Mr. Smiler, I appreciate your response, but I am not sure we need to separate out men and women’s bodies when talking about photoshopping and body image. Why reinforce the idea that men and women are inherently different? I think young boys and girls are… Read more »
Mr. Smiler, I appreciate your response, but I am not sure we need to separate out men and women’s bodies when talking about photoshopping and body image. Why reinforce the idea that men and women are inherently different? The thing to bear in mind is that unrealistic depictions of women and body image issues of women have had the spotlight for a pretty long time. The converation about men’s body image is still pretty new and as such I think at least for some amount of time it really does need its own space. This does not reinforce any idea… Read more »
Good points Danny.
I’ll also add that the dating/sexual attraction piece means what’s being seen is _probably_ being evaluated differently. I want/need to look like that is different than I want to date someone who looks like that, especially given that there is more variety in media-based images of men in comparison to women. …of course, assuming that everyone’s straight is problematic in it’s own way, so the male-only (and female-only) groups would each need to include that.
Andrew, how is “I want/need to look like that”… different from “I want/need to date someone who looks like that”?
Needing to personally look a certain way certainly puts pressure on the indivudal. But needing someone to look a certain way can certainly put unfair pressure on them as well.
In the case of heterosexuality you’d be talking about the difference betwen “I want/need to look like Jamie Foxx” vs “I want/need to date someone that looks like Kate Upton”. (or swap those two if talking about a hetero woman).
Its the different between exterting pressure on yourself vs exerting pressure on potential partners.
But what exactly is being said about the difference between exterting pressure on yourself vs someone else? This is what I am trying to get at: are we saying it’s worse to exert pressure on yourself over others or it’s worse to exert pressure on others over yourself? Why are we making a distinction between exerting pressure on yourself *vs* others? That makes little sense to me. Both seem equally bad to do.
Not that one is worse than the other but a matter of where the pressures are directed and the pressures themselves are not the same. Its the difference between what you are pressuring yourself into being in order to be considered acceptable and what you are pressuring potential partner into being in order to be considered acceptable. For example if we move away from body image for a bit a look at say the gender roles of a man/woman couple. To find those old roles do men and women pressure themelves into the becoming the same thing or are men… Read more »
I’d rather we not move away from the body image discussion since that’s what the topic is about. I think it’s important to focus on the pressures you put on yourself just as much as the pressures you may put on others to conform to.
Oh I’m not trying to step away from body image just trying to give an exmple of what I’m talking about.
I think it’s important to focus on the pressures you put on yourself just as much as the pressures you may put on others to conform to.
Agreed. I (and I think Andrew) was just saying that those pressures are different.
Danny, Unrealistic depictions of women have had the spotlight for some time because the problem is still enormous (I would argue that it is growing, since the amount of media we consume on a daily basis is growing, but I’ll leave that point to the statisticians). I still think that when we separate out boys and girls and talk to them about these things, we aren’t getting to the heart of the problem- that is that these images create unrealistic expectations in ALL of us, whether it is an unrealistic expectation of what we ourselves should look like or what… Read more »
Yes, I do keep hammering that women have it worse because the fact of the matter is, we do. So who has it worse doesn’t matter until it can be shown that women have it worse? Joining boys and girls together for this conversation wouldn’t remove the space to talk about male body image and I think that’s a dangerous assumption you make. I will just have to disagree because even now when talking about male body image still pretty hard to find a full article that can talk about male body image without bringing women into it, while at… Read more »
I think we are conflating two different things- educating children and young people on this issue, and the issue itself. I am merely saying that when we educate children (and maybe I could have made this point better), there is no reason to separate out the sexes. Find good educators- and they exist, I promise!- to guide the discussion and allow the participants to be active in the conversation.
“Women have it worse” isn’t going to be the focus, but it damn sure needs to be a large part of the conversation; otherwise, you misrepresent the problem.
“Women have it worse” isn’t going to be the focus, but it damn sure needs to be a large part of the conversation; otherwise, you misrepresent the problem.
It shouldn’t be the focus because if it does become the focus we’ll just end up with another lopsided discourse like what has happened to rape and dv.
Sami, women don’t have it worse just because you say they do. That said, they are different problems. Females may feel more pressure as a general group to have a certain body. That body (and let’s not use the catwalk model body – no one in their right mind thinks that’s an attractive, healthy look, except magazine editors who want to sell magazines), however, often only requires a good diet and exercise to achieve. Males may feel less of a pressure as a group than females, but to get the bodies seen on magazines or in the movies requires either… Read more »
So you know what? When you can achieve a decent body by keeping the cake out of your mouth and doing a bit of exercising, don’t act as though you have it so much worse.
Come on that was uncalled for.
Hi Pete, I don’t think you much understand the level of dieting and working out a lot of actresses and Maxim models go to, to look the way they do. Do a little research on the type of diets alot of the type of women that are held as being beautiful in our culture practice daily. Take a look at Kate Middleton pictures before she got married. She was a healthy, thin girl. Now she looks positively stick-like. Princess Diana had an eating disorder herself. I’ve struggled with my weight my entire life. When i was a little girl I… Read more »
Oh and let me add a few more things. As a woman you are not suppose to have cellulite, despite the fact that even thin women have it. you’re not suppose to have pores. You are suppose to be doll-like. You are especially not suppose to age. And if you do, you hear justifications from men who are your contempories justify why aging women are simply worth less than younger women. We get 20 year old actresses selling us anti- wrinkle cream that probably already had their first dose of botox themselves. If you think that most women want to… Read more »
You think overweight men get it any easier? I am an overweight male and NEVER HAD A FEMALE SHOW INTEREST unless I specifically pursued her, even then it was very difficult. Even overweight women get hit on far more than overweight men. Of the women and men I’ve known, overweight men had the least chance of dating, even overweight women I know are dating people. Studies have shown just as many men and women are insecure, difference is that the modification of a male body isn’t surgery based but muscle based. How many men do you think eat protein laden… Read more »
Archy, the poster Pete made derogatory comments specifically directed to women about how much easier it is for them. He went out to suggest that they “put the cake down” and ‘exercise a little” and that’s how easy it was. None of my comments suggested what was or wasn’t easier for men. I used my own experience in response to Pete’s comments to showcase for him that it isn’t always as easy as he suggests and probably isn’t for a lot of women. I also only recounted the different way men treated me when I was thin vs being a… Read more »
Hi Sami,
On the conceptual level, I’m not sure there’s a good reason to talk separately about male & female bodies. As an educator and as someone who is writing about programs for middle- and high-school aged kids, I think it’s more practical (or perhaps just easier) to do it separately. I’d be very happy to be proven wrong.
@Sami “Not once did I say photoshopping male images isn’t concerning,” No, you merely insinuated that we shouldn’t discuss it until the problems affecting women have been dealt with. It’s what I like to call the “Starving African Children” fallacy. There’s always a “bigger” problem out there. So, Sami, I must ask you, when do you think it would be appropriate to talk about the subject of this article? Also, I find it somewhat disgusting that you think someone’s relationship status has any bearing on this topic whatsoever, or that you think you can judge (based solely on a handful… Read more »
1. I didn’t insinuate that we couldn’t deal with it UNTIL the problems affecting women have been dealt with, I insinuated that it couldn’t be dealt with WITHOUT also acknowledging and appreciating the imbalance. As I have made clear, I think the conversation needs to happen from all angles- isolating a portion of it distorts the issue and that helps no one. There is a large problem at work here. 2. Find me disgusting all you want. I treat people with respect (my initial comment was respectful) and when people disparage me (and Archy’s “whataboutthewomenz” remark as well as Tony… Read more »
First of all, I never said *you* were disgusting, just what you wrote. The first is an ad hom, the second one isn’t Secondly, I’m curious if you apply this standard to everything, or just when something affects women more. For example, would you post on an article about female suicide that men commit suicide far more than women, and that you really wish said article had discussed that as well? what about an article about female prisoners? Men do make up the majority of the incarcerated after all. Third: “Just talk about prostate exams and how to not catch… Read more »
You’re splitting hairs Jax. Saying that what someone wrote is “disgusting” is just as insulting as saying they are disgusting. Since this is a site where our thoughts represent who we are and what we think. The fact that you applied the “disgusting” comment to the words that were written doesn’t not negate the degrading commentary. It’s fine to disagree. What is not fine is telling another person their thoughts are “disgusting”. I’ve seen this same clause directed at me where it’s okay to attach all kind of negative characterizations to my words and the other person seems to believe… Read more »
Um, Erin, NO. Finding something someone said as disgusting doesn’t mean THEY are disgusting, but simply that THEY said something disgusting.
“Call my words “disgusting” and you are pretty much saying an aspect of me is “disgusting” . And that’s just not right.”
If you say something disgusting and someone calls you out for it, that is right, it is so right that it should be the norm and expected. Because that is how people learn that their words can be disgusting. Should we never call out bigotry, sexism, selfish behaviour, derailing, trolling, etc?
I politely disagree. I illustrated why above. Is that okay? Or do I need to think just like you do? Is your way the only right way to think?
It’s just my opinion but I do not think we can help people see issues with their statements without calling it out.
Let’s say someone says women are gold digging whores, someone else says that is a disgusting attitude or comment. Is it bad that they called them disgusting? They may be an alright person but they’ve made a disgusting comment. How would you address this?
At 44, I’ve finally started working with a therapist over my body issues, mainly my shame in not being hung like a pornstar or bulging like an underwear catalog model. This issue has prevented what might’ve been great relationships for me more than once as I couldn’t get past it myself…not necessarily the other party. I can only imagine how nice it would’ve been to have learned in my early years that not everyone has a baseball bat appendage and that I’m not alone. And, I’ll say again….this is the “goodMENproject” page……while women have struggles, I come to this page… Read more »
I’m with you Tony, and I wish we’d had programs about male bodies when you were growing up.
Tony, I actually think how men see women’s bodies *IS* a *men* issue. A very important “men” issue. Just as much as how men see their own bodies.
I also hope that men come to GoodMENProject to help themselves as much as they come to help how they relate to each other, women and children. Sometimes that means talking about men and sometimes that means men talking about other men or women or children. Right?
I was small for my age growing up. My brother was tall,, although younger. Boys & girls comes in all shapes & sizes,a lot because of Genetics of parents,Excercise, nutrition.
I so desperately wanted this article to focus on teaching boys about airbrushing women and such a practice informs what many men think women “should” look like. Though it is mentioned towards the end of the article, I feel this, not the airbrushed images of men, is the primary concern when we talk about body image since men are not expected to live up to the airbrushed standard nearly as much as women both in quantity of images they consume that contain such images and as a result, degrees of expectations to match such images. Nonetheless, I appreciated the acknowledgement… Read more »
Thanks Sami. Honestly, I could have written in either direction. And that realization was part of what lead me to say we need to talk about manipulation of both men’s and women’s bodies. I think once the skills of how to see the manipulation are taught, talking about the other group adds a level of completeness and provides additional practice. (Do I sound like an educator or what?)
Great, whataboutthewomenz derailing comment that dismisses the effect of airbrushing. I’m sorry but I highly disagree, it’s a BIG PROBLEM the level of beauty men are expected to live up to. Do you know just how many men goto gym simply to look better? Many slave away and take protein shakes n other expensive food suppliments (some even dabble in illegal substances) to get the bulked and chiseled look. Male models have their MUSCLES photoshopped, retoned, etc. I am an overweight male and I guarantee there are many men like myself who are very insecure about our bodies, who feel… Read more »
Hi Archy,
I hear you; I think we need to talk about all of it. Boys (and men) are definitely effected by the male bodies they see and no one is talking to them about it.
That said, we also need to talk to boys about the way female bodies are manipulated (and how it affects the boys) AND ALSO talk to girls about the way male bodies are manipulated (and how that affects the girls).
Yes we do need to talk about both, but I think you made the right decision in the angle of this article, because it’s the angle least taken. Upworthy, for example, is full of pieces on how the media distorts the expectations of female beauty – maybe female body image is the higher priority, but it also already has the higher amount of attention given to it. I also think male body image problems are likely to be more hidden – we’re all aware of women talking about how they feel fat or they’re anxious that their breasts droop, or… Read more »
Archy… “Male models have their muscles photoshopped, retoned…” you mean like this clown here? Are you sure? Are you involved? Certainly there is photo work done all over… I’d suggest that most of it’s done on the covers where celebrity males adorn the covers of MENS HEALTH (and like)… but some with athlete images as well. As for bodybuilders, who are ungodly HUGE, not like this dude (way, way bigger) they aren’t photoshopped…they’re just that god damn big! Who’d photoshop it. Look at Arnold, who is small compared to today’s giants… and he looks HUGE or almost ODD to the… Read more »
I so desperately wanted this article to focus on teaching boys about airbrushing women and such a practice informs what many men think women “should” look like.
This is you can find that type of article quite easily already. On the other hand articles on how images of men affect images of men are just really coming up.