The recent Newsweek article on The Growing Demand for Prostitution is leading to some needed and heated discussion about male sexuality. Leslie Bennetts’ piece is based on a brand-new study of men who buy sex, and the first shock is how much difficulty the researchers had finding men who didn’t pay for sex.
…buying sex is so pervasive that (the researchers) had a shockingly difficult time locating men who really don’t do it. The use of pornography, phone sex, lap dances, and other services has become so widespread that the researchers were forced to loosen their definition in order to assemble a 100-person control group.
“We had big, big trouble finding nonusers,” Farley says. “We finally had to settle on a definition of non-sex-buyers as men who have not been to a strip club more than two times in the past year, have not purchased a lap dance, have not used pornography more than one time in the last month, and have not purchased phone sex or the services of a sex worker, escort, erotic masseuse, or prostitute.”*
The second shock is about men’s honesty – or lack thereof – around this issue.
In the past 24 hours I’ve gotten at least a dozen requests to address this Newsweek piece, almost all of them from women. And several asked me the same plaintive question: are men really like this? One woman wrote, “Now I’m looking at all the men I know, and wondering what it is they’re really doing – and thinking.” Another wrote, “I’m so depressed. It seems like it’s impossible to find a man who isn’t addicted to porn.”
What’s so frustrating isn’t just the percentage of men who pay for sex. It’s the percentage of men who lie about it to their wives and girlfriends, or who minimize the frequency of their porn use. “I used to have a problem with porn” is the grim equivalent of the famous “I used to have an eating disorder.” All too often, that’s wishful thinking if not outright deception. Frequently, what guys try to explain away as a past problem is instead an ongoing habit.
Because so many men are dishonest about sex, either lying directly or being “economical with the truth” about their private behavior, women are left feeling unsafe and mistrustful. Of course, not every single man uses porn or buys sex in other forms. But a great many do, as Newsweek reminds us, and they do include husbands and boyfriends, brothers and fathers, bosses and teachers, coaches and co-workers. That so many women are unsettled by that reality is as much a reflection of what they don’t know about the men in their lives as what they do.
Before we can have the important debate between those who advocate for abolition and those who push for decriminalization of sex work (a key point in the Newsweek article), we need to first get honest about what we’re doing when no one’s watching.
I’ve heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy) because, as one put it to me, “women go ballistic when you tell them the truth.” But it’s not women’s job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real. We owe it to the women we love – and to ourselves – to have the courage to name what it is we’re doing and how often we’re doing it.
Whatever your beliefs about porn and prostitution, we should be able to agree that the women (and men) who do sex work deserve to be treated with human dignity rather than contempt. In the same way, wives and girlfriends deserve the truth. It’s not too much to expect, and it’s not too much to ask.
* Lots of guys say that they only look at free porn online, and they object to being lumped in with those who use cash or credit to buy access to sex. But of course, virtually all “free” porn sites are supported by advertisers who often pay based on web traffic. Each visit is monetized one way or another; anyone who thinks he isn’t contributing financially to the industry because he isn’t paying doesn’t understand the economics of the web.
photo by carabendon / Flickr
About Hugo Schwyzer
Vocalyze
I would imagine that an infographic of men in this study with the categories of what was defined as paying for sex could look like a pyramid: johns a very small portion at the very top, men paying for phone sex and erotic massages slightly bigger below them, then a much bigger grouping of men who have frequently gone to strip clubs, and then at the bottom, a massive group of men who have looked at porn.
“Of course, not every single man uses porn or buys sex in other forms. But a great many do, as Newsweek reminds us, and they do include husbands and boyfriends, brothers and fathers, bosses and teachers, coaches and co-workers.”
And they always have. An important thing to stress here is that very little of this is new. This has been men’s behavior, even long before the internet made porn all that much easier to access (when you were kids, you all knew the one kid who had found his dad’s Playboy collection). Those were normal men, and these are normal men as well.
Yes, lying and deceit is not a pleasant aspect of this, and honesty is great, but it needs to be a two-way street–men aren’t open about their habits because they fear judgement and anger. You only have to look at the article earlier today, and some of the comments below it, to see how porn, and porn viewers, are perceived. As if watching porn inevitably leads to misogyny or worse. Those are the viewpoints that lead some men to lie about what they do, and what their interests in. Not because they want to deceive their partners, but because they are afraid of losing them, and afraid that being honest will lead their partner to feel hurt. And I’m not saying that women who feel this way are irrational…perhaps they’ve had bad experiences in the past, perhaps they have insecurities (as anyone has a right to), perhaps they’ve just continuing the anti-porn feelings in American culture that have been a constant. They emotions are real, and they just can’t be changed overnight.
It’s a complicated issue for both parties.
Well said, on all points.
Norms and Values are great and all, but at the end of the day we are all at mercy of our genetic traits. Everyone is a sum of their nature and nurture, and certain aspects from one side will always trump the other. Since it’s inception, society has put us at odds with our true nature, and it has never worked. Prohibition, of any kind, has done nothing but increase dishonesty from the oppressed, and often increases the appeal of the “forbidden fruit” (refer to our nation’s rampant failure with the Drug War). Simply put, humans aren’t designed for monogamy (and yes, that includes women), but rather evolved as a social and hyper-sexual animal. I am surprised so many women have an issue with their man watching porn to satiate this ingrained drive for a variety of sexual conquests; perhaps they should shop for a man with a severely diminished sex drive (or consider what the guys not watching porn are actually up to behind their back). When our society starts to accept ourselves as we truly are (not what we all are pretending to be), porn sites and ED pills alike will be scrambling to stay in business. Women need to understand that just because men don’t physically manifest their biological differences on a regular basis, doesn’t mean that a man isn’t just as much a slave to his sexual identity as women are to theirs.
Interesting points, Scott. I’d like to here you expand on the “when our society starts to accept ourselves” comment…..if we were to accept..what will happen? And why would that put porn sites and ED companies out of business?
Mentioning ED makes me think of another belief of mine. I believe porn is contributing to men buying ED drugs in droves. I think porn actually is harming our men. I believe they’re beginning to have more insecurities than the women. They’re buying into the “have to be as big or as hard as or last as long as the male porn star to satisfy a woman. And that’s just NOT true. There’s a reason a man’s average penis size..is the average… and that’s because it fits the average woman. I know you know all this… I’m not trying to talk at you, just with you. It just seems some men would dry up and die if they couldn’t have porn… and I wonder why.
Kristen,
You obvioulsy don’t understand the complexity and workings of male sexuality and that lack of understanding has been written about previously on the GMP site. This is not the place to try to explain male sexuality to you because there is no simple explanation, contrary to what you as a woman may think about men. But I’ll tell you this. Men are not the same as you. They don’t think about sex the exact same way or use it to full fill the exact same needs that you do. Sexuality plays a different part in your life than it does in the average man’s. Your inference that it is wrong becuse of your own lack of understanding is just simple ignorance. Just because occasional porn is not part of your sexual life, does not mean it is unhealthy. It just means it doesn’t interest YOU. Trying to force men to conform their own sexuality to women’s “norms” is, quite frankly, insulting and sexist.
I’m not convinced that I buy into this whole “It’s a man thing” mentality. I know that as a female, I was raised to believe that I was supposed to need hours and hours of foreplay and romance in order to feel sexual. And that I “couldn’t” have casual sex, because well…women just don’t do that sort of thing. None of those silly myths have ever applied to me. I’m every bit as sexual as any man, and I don’t believe for a second that I’m the exception to the rule. As for porn, I’ve used porn since I discovered its existance at the tender age of about 12. I’ve used it until very recently–the more hardcore, the better. I don’t use it anymore because I do fear it’s harmful effects on society.
So yeah…DGT…maybe you ought to think about checking that priveleged attitude at the door. Men aren’t the only ones who place a high value on sex. At least you’re allowed to enjoy it without being called a slut, aren’t you?
@DGT– Sorry about that last line…..I’m not trying to score some opression points for the women’s team, that just came out all wrong, so let me try again (and this part isn’t directed at just DGT but to readers in general)
The thing that worries me most about all this talk of masculinity (not just here, but every dang where) is that I see an extraordinarily high value being placed on male sexuality. And by sexuality, I mean…always wanting sex….any old woman will do….gotta have variety….but hey–they gotta be young, and thin and sexy! I’m exagerrating a bit, sure….but that’s not too far off.
And when a woman dares to come along and protest the use of porn, she is shut down immediately (at least here, with DGT) with claims that it’s just the way male sexuality is. No need for reflection on his part, because he’s been assured that he’s just born that way. And um, that ain’t good.
I would suggest the conflicted ladies read “Sex at Dawn,” which has authors from both genders and offers a great perspective on human sexuality (and how ridiculous we are about it).
Thanks for the suggestion, Scott, but I’m personally more interested in discussing the impact of socialization on men and women and how that affects our sexual behaviors than I am about reading another book whose baseline is that “we are just born that way”. I wonder why the socialization factor is always overlooked in these discussions.. I also wonder how accomodating some men would be if the tables were turned, and it was women who were given free reign to explore their sexual desires without regard to the possible harmful effects on men, who were reflexively told to just get over it if they ever dared to complain.
Sex At Dawn is all about how socialization has affected our sexual behavior.
Really? Well then in that case, I stand corrected. Maybe I will give it a read instead of just making assumptions about it.
more science http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-sunny-side-of-smut
I t truly seems to me the amount of men who use porn has grown and continues to grow. The availability of it on the internet has everything to do with that. There are men who wouldn’t have crossed a street to buy a magazine who are now looking at it. I appreciate a man who understands all the harmful aspects of porn and even though it “turns him on” and he “likes it”….knows the harms in watching it, even occasionally. We truly seem to be a “hypersexual” society these days. Everywhere you look there’s some reference to porn, sex,– perhaps we’ve simply become just numb… sex isn’t enough any more. More and more people just seem “impotent”. Perhaps if we dialed it back again…if there wasn’t so much overkill… I don’t know. Just seems there are more and more news stories of pedophiles, sex trafficking, prostitution rings, divorces where porn use is cited as the cause, married people dating sites….. young men concerned with the fact that they “can’t get it up any more…
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Mens-Health/22-with-porn-induced-erectile-dysfunction/show/469209
Lots and lots of young men who can’t get it up
I understand completely men voting that they don’t like this medical help post. I understand men not liking the idea that impotence can occur.
Ah, the age old refrain: things weren’t like this in olden times.
Lol well, it’s true. They weren’t. Technology has changed how we receive information and the quantity of information we are receiving. Porn is of coure included in that.
In my day, people masturbated uphill both ways in the snow
Here is what I am learning:
- Not all men are like this. I am so excited by the fact that not all men buy sex. I can and do meet men that don’t buy sex. How wonderful is that.
- I am not responsible for my partner’s behaviour but I am responsible for my response to his behaviour. That includes building healthy boundaries that protect me. (see Boundaries in Marriage Cloud and Townsend)
- I deserve the right to be able to respond to his behaviour. How I may or may not respond is not a justification for secrecy. Just as I am not responsible for his behaviour he is not responsible for my reaction. So let me respond.
- Pornography is not only hurting me it hurts the women and men in the pictures too. The life expectancy of a porn star is 37 years (78 for average American – or 82 if you are Australian like me). Shelly Lubben has been tracking the premature deaths of performers in California and it is truly heart breaking http://www.shelleylubben.com/porn-industry. Men are dying premature deaths too not just the women
- Human trafficking is the second largest global organized crime today, generating approximately US 31.6 billion each year. Specifically, trafficking for sexual exploitation generates US 27.8 billion per year. There are millions of women and children living in sexual servitude in the world today including in our cities. For more stats and a solution see http://www.thea21campaign.org/the-problem.php
I had a lot of problems with the Newsweek study, frankly — as Tracy Clark-Flory made clear at Salon, it’s a huge stretch to connect looking at porn with being a “john”, even if there is a real economic component to surfing the web.
But the issue that got me stirred up wasn’t the article, it was women’s reaction to the story. And the issue of dishonesty is critical. Dude, if you’re using porn, that’s one thing. But if you’re dishonest about it, that’s another. And women’s anxiety about what men are doing and thinking is enormous.
Scott, genes and hormones are influences. They are not our masters. We’ve got temporal lobes and the capacity to exercise free will. I swear, arguing with evo-psych people is like arguing with Five Point Calvinists: they both deny much possibility for human beings to grow and change.
Why don’t you do a study then? Would be very interested in the outcome.
Hugo,
You actually have the temerity to talk about dishonesty? You think that if men want to be considered good that they should tell their women that they use porn? Why didn’t you apply that same rationale in your article last week that pissed everyone off? You didn’t care if Jill* lied – you said it was her choice. Hypocrite dude. You only care about men bending; women never have to bend.
It’s the frontal lobes that are used to exercise conscious control, not the temporal lobes.
Actually I was pretty clear to mention that nature and nurture form us, but it’s in our vices that nature always seems to win. Ask the Catholic Church how commandments and will power ultimately hold up to sexuality. All I was saying is that these urges exist and always have, and there have been no effective means of suppressing them. If you have compelling scientific evidence to contradict my claim have at it, but name calling and “damn those crazy people I disagree with” doesn’t sway anyone but the people who already agree with you.
Hugo thoughtful as always. I too was struck by that statement about not being able to find 100 men who don’t use some form of sex trade. I am going to go the other way here in that I think that paints this whole issue with too broad a brush. Yes, pornography and prostitution are accelerating no doubt (and in my view they are different as the worst forms of prostitution are sex slaves as I have written about multiple times whereas strippers and many women involved in pornography do so voluntarily, though I totally agree they deserve fair and safe working conditions that legalization would bring). But to say there aren’t 100 men in the whole frickin country who don’t engage in the sex trade is just another unnecessary and ridiculous slap at men in general. Yes many, many men watch porn. Men who you wouldn’t expect to, who lie about it to their wives. But not all men. That is silly and degrading.
I agree that the issue is our unwillingness to talk about all these topics out in the open so men can say what it is they are doing and women can also say how it is affecting them, whether in their relationships or in their work. The thing I worry about the most is the way that the ideal of a woman as a sexual being as depicted in the sex trade becomes what our boys think is what they should aspire to be with. That is a hollow and unfulfilling goal in my view and one that short changes not only girls but boys too.
Several points here…
First, I am a woman who’s man watches porn. I’m ok with this, no anxiety, and it can be fun to watch together. However, to pretend that it’s not part of the “sex industry” is absurd. Porn is the foundation of the sex industry, and not somehow outside of it. Saying that most, if not nearly all, men participate in the sex industry is accurate, and not in any way a “slap in the face”. If the sex industry were legal, and beyond that, if it were respected as a profession as much as any other, then it would not be seen as a “slap in the face”. You only see it that way because there is something dirty and unacceptable about the sex industry… period. This is also why women “freak” when it comes up (aside from some misplaced relational security thing, or some delusion that if a man thinks sexual thoughts about another woman he is “cheating”). This is also why men lie about it. As a woman, I feel that the sex industry (and the drug industry) should not be illegal. Then again, I have a very limited view about what should be illegal. It’s getting to the point where things which are not expressly permitted are forbidden, but that’s a whole other can of worms.
Men are more visual as far as sex goes. I think that the numbers would be very different, but possibly surprising to many people if they looked at the demographic of women who 1) watch or look at pornography 2) read romance novels or 3) watch soap operas. Women, sexually, are far more interested in the relationship, as a stereotype based in truth. This is also why we are less likely to buy sex or have a fling with someone who’s personality isn’t appealing to us, but more likely to have a friend who turns into an affair. This is also why women are more pressured to look a certain way.
I may or may not have made any points worth paying attention to, I certainly haven’t paid attention to topic, flow, grammar, or anything else of the sort, but I may have partaken in the home grown varieties of the sex and drug (and rock and roll) products and my mind may not be put on straight.
Ta!
I don’t think it is fair for you to say that not wanting porn in a relationship is misplaced and delusional. Just as you have the right to have porn don’t I have the right to be in a porn free relationship if I want?
If your man is viewing porn when you are not present and it is not in terfering with your time together or his life in general, why is it your business? You may share sex, but his male sexuality is his own, and not for you to dictate or control. Isn’t this really about you not understanding male sexuality and therefore viewing it as a threat? There are parallels between how a significant number of women feel threatened by men and porn, just as some heterosexuals feel threatened by homosexuals. Those parallels being ignorance and the desire to control, change, or eliminate.
I could use the same argument in response to you. Could your need to defend the use of porn and blaming my misunderstanding of the male sexuality show that you know very little about female sexuality. By telling me that I have no right to a porn free relationship you are in turn control me and dictating to me what my sexuality should be and include.
Jemima,
You have a right to a porn-free relationship. But you only have that right with a man who does not want to watch porn and never does so. You don’t have the right to tell a man how to express his sexuality.
If porn is a dealbreaker for you, you need to be upfront about it from the beginning. Tell men you date from the get-go that you have zero tolerance for porn and that you will leave the relationship if he views porn. That way, the man knows what he’s getting into from the start.
I do the same thing but with monogamy. I tell the man I am not inherently monogamous and to expect me to monogamous over the long-term is not going to work. That way, he knows what he’s getting into. If he’s not interested, then he should look somewhere else.
Jeni, couldn’t agree more.
The numbers I’ve seen show that 1/3 of online porn viewers (I don’t use the term “users”) are women.
Yep pornography use among women is high also. It is not just a male phenomenon. I think that further ads to my argument with DMT. Pornography is not simply an intrinsic part of male sexuality that I must simply accept. It is a behavior that both men and women choose to or not to engage in.
viewers/users I think that is an interesting point. Perhaps some people are users and some people are viewers? There is a growing body of scientific study that shows that pornography can be addictive. But I can imagine that there are people who ‘view’ pornography and don’t ‘use’ pornography. The same as people drink alcohol but don’t ‘use’ it. However, if for some reason I decide that I don’t want to drink alcohol and I meet someone who doesn’t want to drink alcohol and we go into the relationship on that understanding. Can’t I expect that he isn’t drinking it behind my back and not telling me? Then when I find out and am upset he blames my misunderstanding of the male psychology and tells me I am trying to control him. That doesn’t sounds fair to me.
What is more interesting for me is does that status of viewer/user really change someones tolerance for violence against women. Whether you agree with the scientific quality of the Farley study the question is an interesting one. There are other studies that show that men are more accepting of violence against women when they are aroused. I think it is a question that deserves attention. And when it comes down to it that is what this article and study are really about. It is so easy for us to get caught up in our argument over whether I should be allowed to watch porn or I should be allowed not to watch porn. But violence, sexual servitude and premature death is a day to day reality for many people.
The study was released directly and exclusively to Newsweek. Translation: it is neither peer reviewed nor available to the public.
I know nothing at all about Melissa Farley, but I know enough about science to be wary when a news report based on scientific research reinforces tired conventional wisdom about men and women, like this one does. Actually, it’s better not to give any validity at all to popular media reports about scientific studies. In the research community it’s considered bad form to go to the press before articles have been peer-reviewed. To conceal the original study entirely while still going to the press smells very fishy indeed.
Frankly, the claim that they couldn’t find 100 men who didn’t visit a strip club in the past year doesn’t pass the smell test. That 10%, 20%, conceivably even 40% of men visited a strip club in 2010 I might believe, but that the researcher wasn’t able to find 100 men who didn’t visit a strip club at all in 2010, didn’t watch porn in 2010, etc, isn’t credible. This researcher apparently didn’t try very hard to find a control group, and I have to wonder why not.
I can find you 20 guys right now who have not been in a strip club, or with a hooker, or phone sex service, in the past year. I can find you at least 10 guys, all friends of mine who have NEVER stepped foot in a strip club, been with a prostitute, or phone sex service. I’ve never done any of those things either myself. Though I do check out porn (yes, my wife knows).
Anyway, this study is a load of crap, as far as I am concerned.
Men, if your wives know you look at it…does that mean they like it? Or are they just saying to themselves, “Oh well, boys will be boys.”? If your wives said they didn’t like it, don’t want you to watch it….would you stop? Would you continue looking and hide it?
While I get what you’re saying, it’s a conversation-ender and that isn’t fair. Say I don’t like that my partner consumes alcohol…just like your statement, that’s absolute…what can I do? At the end of the day, the decision is his, and as long as there is no negative impact to his interactions with me, to our relationship, or others in general it’s only his to make. Yes he should consider my feelings, but I need to consider his also.
I can talk to him about it, I can compromise with him, I can throw down ultimatums and make life unbearable (as some women do), or I can just leave. I ask you, what’s fair? When either person in a reltionship makes a request to the other, we must be willing to qualify our request, AND willing to consider the qualifications of the other person. I mean, isn’t that what it takes to be in a fair and honest relationship?
I can’t believe we’re actually making arguments that a woman who doesn’t want her partner to use porn needs to consider his feelings about it. Give me a freaking break! We use pornography because it’s there and because we CAN. To argue that porn use is central to a person’s–or more specifically, a man’s–sexuality (as so many men here do) is disingenuous and insulting. If you’re in a relationship with someone who uses porn and you can’t seem to make yourself feel okay about it, then you have every right to leave. Truly, these conversations about how women are supposed to just suck it up and deal with men being sexual pigs do nothing but adds to the attitude in our society that we are supossed to cater to men’s sexuality. I’m not buyin it.
Well, yes, she does need to consider his feelings about it if she wants to remain in a relationship with him. And, just as I said the other day to the men who were complaining that they only get sex as compensation for doing things around the house, yes, women need to suck it up, leave, or look for a way to healthily incorporate the porn into their sex life.
You know, Dan Savage has a term he uses for this concept. It’s called GGG. “GGG stands for ‘good, giving, and game,’ which is what we should all strive to be for our sex partners. Think ‘good in bed,’ ‘giving equal time and equal pleasure,’ and ‘game for anything—within reason.’” (from Savage Love, March 1, 2007). If a man or woman wants to be in a sexually monogamous relationship with someone s/he needs to be GGG or allow his/her partner to get their sexual needs met somewhere else. Anything else is controlling and unfair.
You are supposed to cater to each other’s sexual needs that’s why you are in a relationship.
Just because men view porn does not make them sexual pigs.
It’s not the viewing of porn that makes men sexual pigs. It’s the insistence of *some men* that they have the right to do so despite the ways in which doing so may hurt the women in their lives. It’s the insistence that it’s okay to visit strip clubs and pay for lap dances. It’s the fact that *some men* only care about getting their rocks off, and so they choose to disregard the possibility that in choosing to get those rocks off in these ways contributes to the treatment of women in society as nothing more than sexual objects. It’s the way that *some men* reflexively insist that they do these things because they were just born with the drive to do so, without a smidgen of introspection. That’s what makes some of them pigs.
I feel sad for the women whose husbands view porn even after their wives make it clear that it hurts them. I wonder how many of them do indeed ‘suck it up” out of love for their spouses, and end up suffering in silence.
There are articles on this website written by authors who bemoan the fact that their wives don’t have sex with them and/or aren’t intimate with them. I think that, in some cases at least, this might be their way of lashing back at husband’s who insist on doing these things without regard to the way that it affects the women in their lives. You can’t have your cake and eat it too, no matter how much you insist that you may have the right to.
…and “lashing back” may have been the wrong way to say it, because that implies intent, as in punishment. I imagine that it’s difficult for some women to desire sex and intimacy with a man who shows such callous disregard for her feelings just so that he can get his sexual kicks. (If indeed, that is the case for why some of these men have wives who won’t have sex with them).
Miranda,
I think the woman needs to analyze why his viewing porn hurts her. If it’s about her fears and insecurities, then she needs to deal with them rather than expect her husband to prop up her sense of self-worth. Honestly, I don’t want to explain this process again since I already explained it in my comments on the MILF page.
I disagree with your comment about “having your cake and eating it too”. As a polyamorous person, I very much believe human beings can carry on more than one intimate relationship at a time and have the right to do so…but they need to be upfront and honest about it. As a person who has wandered in the swinger scene as well, I believe it is possible for ethical non-monogamy to exist and benefit relationships.
If you love someone only based on how much he is willing to compromise his identity for the benefit of the relationship, well, that’s not love in my book. Manipulation, maybe…controlling behavior, maybe…but love, no.
Thanks for the thought, Jeni, but there really is nothing to explain to me. You believe that people can have more than one relationship at a time, and that’s great, and I’m guessing that the people you enter into relationships with feel the same about polyamory (sp?). But you seem to, because of YOUR beliefs about relationships and monogamy, believe that everyone else should feel the same, and they don’t. There is nothing wrong with a person NOT enjoying pornography, and there is nothing wrong with a person who feels betrayed by her (or his) spouse’s use of it. Their opinions and feelings about it are every bit as valid as those who insist that there’s nothing wrong with it.
Flawed studies and “research” aside, there is an incredible amount of anecdotal evidence that frequent porn use affects the user’s sex life, and by extension, affects the user’s partner. These cases may be the exceptions to the rule, or they may not, but the point I’m trying to make is that everyone who is affected by porn does have a part in the conversation, whether you or anyone else likes what they have to say or not.
For some reason, a lot of people ask me if I let people I am in relationship with know that I am not monogamous. YES! I tell everybody I date or have sexual interactions with. I practice ETHICAL non-monogamy. I don’t even go near someone who is monogamous. That’s just asking for drama and turmoil in my life. I don’t need that! Heavens!
I don’t think that because of my beliefs everyone else should feel the same. Folks can feel and believe whatever they want. However, when they start complaining because their partner cheats or expresses desire for someone else, I contend that there’s a way out of this problem by not forcing yourself to live up an idealized standard that is next to impossible to achieve with any sort of happiness or satisfaction. If people want to be monogamous and then complain that they’re miserable because their partner isn’t fulfilling all their needs in the way they want them to, I am unsympathetic. You make a choice, you get to live with the consequences.
I don’t think the feelings of the person who feels betrayed are not valid. They are valid and natural. What I am saying is that, nine times out of ten, that person is putting it onto their spouse to make him/her feel better. That’s not healthy.
I’d like to put the following hypothetical situation before you: Let’s suppose that you’re a woman with a high sex drive and your husband has a lower sex drive. You’re monogamous but feel somewhat dissatisfied with your sex life. Is it okay for you to masturbate? What if you use a vibrator to do so? What if the only way for you to orgasm is through the use of a vibrator (yes, this does happen to some women)? Now let’s suppose that your husband knows or finds out you masturbate several times a week using your vibrator and that this knowledge makes him feel insecure about his ability to satisfy you. If he asks, do you sacrifice ever having an orgasm again to make him feel more secure or do you reassure him that you love him, love being sexual with him, and negotiate a way to incorporate your vibrator into sex with your partner?
This kind of scenario can apply to most any sort of kink or fetish. Spanking, bondage, role play, feet, etc. Do you require your partner give up something that brings him/her great sexual satisfaction because it makes you uncomfortable? Really? I’d say if that’s the case, you don’t love your partner, you love the person s/he’s pretending to be.
We DO have the right to do so, and for almost all men, viewing porn is in no way detrimental to anyone else. My jerking off for 10 minutes before I go to sleep at night in NO WAY negatively affects ANYONE. Period. You have absolutely no right to dictate to anyone what they can or cannot do by themselves if it doesn’t hurt anyone. Your need to be controlling and domineering speaks volumes.
And use of alcohol, again, isn’t the same thing? What part of the being is it central to?
The point Miranda, isn’t that porn is vital (or even viable in some cases) it’s that like everything else, it’s the choice of the consumer whether or not to consume, not the partner of the consumer. It’s about choice (hmm, where have I heard that before????).
Additioanlly, nobdy said a woman shouldn’t voice her feelings on her partner’s porn consumption. All I said was be willing to be open about why, andaccept that his arguments (if he has any) man win out. Have you ever considered that pornography consumption has actually embettered the sex livesof some couples?
Men aren’t necessarily to be labeled pigs because they consume pornography either, I think that by doing so you are doing a great disservice to some fantastic men out there. Consumption of porn doesn’t manke a man bad…basing his treatment of women and their sexuality on what occurs in mainstream pornography does.
Of course the woman can’t choose for her partner whether or not he consumes porn. But she can make her feelings clear, and he then has the right to decide how he wants to proceed from there. But demanding that women look the other way and keep quiet about it isn’t going to make it happen. As I said in another comment, I’ve been an avid porn user most of my life, until recently. Several years ago I married a man who had a deep insecurity about my use of it. So, I STOPPED. Out of respect to him. Because, as high as my sex drive might happen to be, and as fond as I might’ve been to my porn during my marriage, I somehow had the capability to understand that my sexual needs were only a small part of the relationship, and that I had no right whatsoever to demand that he just get over something that bothered him on such a visceral level, especially knowing, as I did, that no matter how fun it might have been for me, it was also not something I needed. And as I’ve said and will continue to say, I have a very high sex drive. So the “men are sexual creatures” card doesn’t work on me. If I can be respectful, then so can they.
Your husband needs to figure out why your watching porn makes him insecure. Then he needs to deal with his own insecurities.
Also, if you have a high sex drive and he’s not willing to meet your needs, you have the right to get those needs met either through porn or taking other lovers. If you’re sacrificing those needs for the relationship, well, as long as you’re happy, that’s great!
It’s not something I’d be willing to do for any man or any relationship for more than a few months.
Kristen,
You are asking a relationship question that is not specific to porn, but to all behavior. Couples have an obligation to work with each other on behaviors they like and dislike, to foster mutual growth in the relationship. Porn does not have a magical hold over men. Its like anything else. If your relationship comes first, everything else is negotiable.
Yet another home run, Hugo….You just wrote a piece in which you said integrity comes down to matching our words with our actions (which piece was that, again?) I want to laminate that: that is the essence of honesty.
And your article here highlights the essential lynchpin of intimacy: Honesty.
If it’s not happening, either because you think your lady can’t handle it, or because you can’t come face to face with it yourself (as with an increasing dependence on porn, which is WAY more common than anyone really likes to admit) then there is going to be a problem in the relationship down the road.
Before I do weddings for people now, I’ve learned from my work with partners of sexual compulsives that I have to ask both parties what constitutes fidelity for them. Usually neither is alarmed at that, with most answering that cheating is out of the question. But I’ve learned to take it further, and now I add, “What do you consider cheating? Go home and think about it, then come back and let’s talk about it here”.
There is a good likelihood it may turn up some spirited discussion. However, if that discussion doesn’t happen, it’s almost a shoe-in that I’ll get one party later as a counseling client when the trust is broken due to lies, withholds, or half-truths. And whether the research presented in the Newsweek piece is impeachable or not, my own clientele mirrors one fact back to me over and over again: deception is the norm. You are so right, that women have very often come to learn distrust. The old adage is very true that it takes a long time to build up trust in a couple, but only a few seconds to shatter it. The rebuild, when it’s even possible, is brutal.
That’s the climate we live in: we must force ourselves to disclose this sensitive material to each other, or else we risk dishonoring the other person with untruths. And how can we say, “I love you”….if what we’re parenthetically saying is, “but only if I get to continue to do what I know you hate”, or “but only if you don’t know what I’m really up to?” That leads to more secrecy and once the other party suspects withholds, a holy mess ensues.
So very many people are saying “oh, ok”, or as Kirsten put it, “boys will be boys”, to porn use in committed relationships because the raunch culture I wrote about earlier puts them in a strangehold (also cleverly engineered to keep the naysayers quiet) where they risk losing their man if they say no. This is choice? This is sex-positive? What about the choice of the partner who objects to porn in the relationship? She should be steamrolled?
You’re absolutely right, that before we begin the conversation about legalization or anything else, we need to look unflinchingly at what we’re all doing and how much of that we obscure from the person we love. It’s really so simple, but not easy at all.
Writers like you get these conversations out in the open, and I respect you greatly for it. Thank you!
Idk if culturally we are changing so much but I have heard about a disturbing trend about many men prefering porn to actual sex with partners. If this trend is real, then how can this be healthy?
I would like to hear from these men who are supposedly choosing porn over sex with actual people. I’ve heard about them as well, but that’s it–heard *about* them. I haven’t heard *from* them. I have to think that these stories are distorted at best, or apocryphal at worst.
Here’s the point. If you want to use porn, you can use it. But you can’t demand a partner be okay with it. Partners have the right to say “It’s me or the porn”, because that’s not an unreasonable request. And men (or women) have the right to say “I’ll pick porn”. What we don’t get to do is lie to each other.
You so cannot make that argument after you spent a week trashing men who reacted negatively to your story about a woman’s dishonesty concerning her lying to her husband about the paternity of their son, especially since you sided with the woman and supported her dishonesty. You cannot support women lying about her child’s father and then complain about men lying about their porn use. It is the height of hypocrisy to even attempt it.
That said, men’s porn use is their business. Partners do not own men’s bodies or minds, so as long the men are not addicted to porn, I fail to see the actual problem outside of bruised female (a few male) egos.
It is reasonable for a partner to say “it’s me or the porn” just as it is reasonable for a partner to say “it’s me or the romance novels” or “it’s me or Oprah.” The problem with a relationship based in demands is that it sets up as adversaries people that should be partners.
I use porn; my partner (to the best of my knowledge) does not. She is perfectly fine going weeks or sometimes months without any sexual activity involving more than kissing. I am not, and so I bridge the gap with the aid of pornography. I don’t use it as inspiration for what my partner should do in bed, and I don’t use it when my partner is sexually available. I use pornography to keep me from growing resentful about our greatly mismatched libidos.
I don’t lie to her about my pornography use because we don’t talk about it. I pretend I don’t use porn, and I do my best to let her pretend I don’t use porn. Sometimes that’s the shape compromises take. If she were to put to me, “it’s me or porn” in choosing her I am also choosing a relationship in which I am bitter and resentful for celibacy being forced upon me. I’m not at all convinced that’s a choice she’d want me to make.
If you need sexual release more often than your wife, why would you need porn to “get there”? If you can’t get off by yourself then maybe you don’t really need to get off at all.
If you use porn but pretend not to, you are lying about it.
So there are demands about the fantasy methods used by someone (I say “someone” and not “a man” because there are women in heterosexual relationships in this situation, as well as lesbians) to masturbate?
If you can’t get off by yourself then maybe you don’t really need to get off at all.
Wow how presumptuous. This is a common theme I’m seeing in these recent porn posts. People declaring that if you can’t do it without visual aids something is wrong with you.
Bull shit.
No, by “pretend not to” I mean to say I make a very careful effort to ensure that there is no evidence of my porn use; my partner is not confronted by it if she has to use my computer, I don’t have magazines or DVDs to be discovered, and I don’t leave “dirty socks” lying around (which wouldn’t really matter since I do most of the laundry anyway). And by her pretending I don’t use porn, I mean to say she doesn’t go searching for evidence of my porn use, doesn’t “pronounce” her disapproval of porn use, and doesn’t ask me about it. Were she to ask me, “do you use porn” I would undoubtedly say yes. Some people might call this a DADT arrangement with pornography.
I have an idea. How about I don’t tell you what you can and can’t do to get off and you don’t tell me. Deal?
I’m similar. Post-menopausal, my wife just doesn’t want sex as much as I do. I’m currently monogamous, so I use porn about once a week. She could care less if I use it. I can also just masturbate– the porn isn’t necessary. She and I have good sex when we have it. I’ve never visited a strip club and the last time I saw a prostitute was 1964 in Korea. I use Viagra, and think the critiques of Viagra are usually nutty. Anyone who is completely honest about everything in a marriage is a fool.
I really have trouble with the concept of ‘truth in all things leads to the best results’. Of course you should open with your partner, and depending upon how much it means to them openness about your porn use might be important. But, frankly, sometimes little lies are better for everyone involved (and not just for assuaging your own guilt, before anyone goes there). What is ‘true’ and what is ‘right’ are not synonymous.
Another thing, I find it very tiresome how swiftly the word ‘addiction’ comes out when people start talking about porn. Putting my ‘I have a degree in psychology’ hat on, a substantial majority of people who use porn do so without the impact on other parts of their life that would classify as addiction. To have a robust and worthwhile conversation about the effect porn has on people and society, it is NOT HELPFUL to go around shouting ‘you’re an addict’ at everyone single user of it.
Hugo: How can you speak of the importance of honesty after your last piece in which you had absolutely no qualms about a woman LYING to her future husband about the paternity of their child?
It is the absolute height of hypocrisy my friend.
Not to sound like an MRA, but it’s instances like this that make me feel you really do have a very real bias against men and women can do no wrong. Seriously, let’s think about this.
You’re knocking guys who choose to keep their occasional porn viewing habits a secret because it might upset their significant other. Yet you never once criticized a woman who married a man after getting pregnant with a baby that might not even be his. The paternity lie is FAR WORSE than not telling your wife you watch porn because she gets unreasonably upset about it. Yet here’s an entire column dedicated to honesty, when clearly you seem to think only men need to come clean. Women, apparently, can do whatever they want.
For such a smart guy this one was extremely disingenuous and, frankly, pretty upsetting.
Aaron,
You really don’t see the difference? At the risk of derailing this thread and launching back into yesterday’s news, the distinction is that I was (and still am) in no place to criticize Jill. The only people who are are women who have found themselves in similar situations. She was the pregnant one, and she had the moral authority to call the shots on what was disclosed. I didn’t have the right then and still don’t now to override that decision, and I’ll place my entire reputation as a writer and a husband and a father on that. (I think that’s called doubling down.) In a perfect world, would Jill have been honest with Ted up front? Yup. And in a perfect world we’d all use contraception every time, save when we we’re trying to make babies.
Are men who lie about porn viewing the scum of the earth? Of course not. But it’s weak sauce to say that “I’d tell her the truth, but she can’t handle the truth.” I am in a position to say that because I am a man who has used porn — just as a woman who had been pregnant out of wedlock and unsure of the father’s identity is in a better position to weigh in on what Jill did.
It’s not a bias against men. It’s a belief that men should call out other men before we call out women. I hardly think that’s hypocritical. YMMV.
There is no difference between the two situations except in the severity of the deception. However, I just want to be clear on this point: are you arguing that we cannot criticize people’s decision unless we have been in similar situations as them? By that logic women cannot criticize men over men’s porn use because women are rarely, if ever, in similar situations.
It is hypocritical to support one group’s dishonesty while condemning another’s. Equivocating over which gender is “in a better position” to criticize dishonest behavior does not change that. I cannot imagine that you do not see that, nor can I imagine you giving men the same leeway. You may not intend to come across as biased against men, but in light of your prior articles you do.
Hugo: I’ve never murdered somebody in cold blood. By your rationale I’m not allowed to condemn that action or judge others who have, simply because I’ve never engaged in that specific activity. That line of thinking is the definition of weak sauce.
In the case of Jill, I’m not arguing it was your place to override her decision. But I certainly think you’d be well within your rights to criticize her decision because of the obvious lack of honesty and high level of manipulation and deceit. That’s just fair play and common sense.
But most troubling is when you say “It’s a belief that men should call out other men before we call out women.” Are you kidding?? People should call out other people when it’s deserved. Gender does not factor into it at all. The fact that it does for you is a little strange, and rather telling. If we’re really all about equality then a lie is a lie is a lie. I’m not going to refrain from criticizing one person who lies just because that person is a woman (or a man). The fact that you think men should focus on solely calling out other men before women is just…well, confusing.
But I guess if we’re talking about honesty at all costs then men will need to come clean when their wives have gained weight and ask the question “Do I look fat?” Or tell her we love how she looks when she asks us, even if we’re not fond of her wardrobe. My point is we all tell little lies, or at the very least withhold the truth, because we don’t want to hurt the person we’re with. Obviously you can’t take that to an extreme, but you also can’t go around saying every little truth that’s on your mind. We’d be taking frying pans to the head.
Aaron, if you want to revisit the discussion about the paternity issue, let’s do it in another thread. Controversy drives things — write a post explaining why my stance pissed you off, and let’s put it out there. Or let it lie. But I’d like to keep this thread focused on porn.
Porn use is not like other little white lies. We don’t live with our sexuality in compartments; what gets us off alone will invariably have direct implications for the person with whom we’re getting off when we’re together. (Bad syntax, but you get the idea.)
The right to use porn and the right to be in a porn-free relationship are both conditional. And the sad thing is that many women would like to be in porn free relationships, but acquiesce to their partners’ porn use because if there’s one thing that they dislike MORE than porn, it’s dishonesty.
I don’t think that’s analogous to a partner’s weight gain, either. People need to eat, people gain weight. People also need sexual pleasure. But they don’t need to use images of other people to get off. I think there’s a colossal distinction between saying “I don’t want to be in a relationship with a partner who uses porn” and saying “I don’t want my partner to ever masturbate.” If a man can’t get off to a fantasy in his head (if he’s in a relationship, preferably about his partner) then he’s had a rather sad failure of imagination.
Again, I’m not anti-porn. I think porn use is fine. But I also think it ought to be negotiable in a relationship rather than just assumed or tolerated.
Hugo: Sticking to the porn thread, I’ll address your last point.
You wrote “If a man can’t get off to a fantasy in his head (if he’s in a relationship, preferably about his partner) then he’s had a rather sad failure of imagination.” Huh? You’re really trying to judge people on how they fantasize and masturbate and who they should be imagining?? That’s just crap.
Just because you imagine the Swedish bikini team giving you a collective rubdown doesn’t mean you love your wife any less. That’s why it’s fantasy. Forget pornographic movies, we go to the mainstream cinema to watch films like Harry Potter so we can temporarily escape from reality. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just like there’s nothing wrong with conjuring up an image of a woman different from your wife. Second, who cares if someone needs visual stimuli to masturbate? Some people are more visual than others. So what? Condemning men for not having an imagination is just silly.
But more often than not, women make clear their disdain for porn after either having a discussion about it with guys or finding it on their browser history. Most men who are casual porn viewers don’t feel they’re doing anything wrong, so there’s no need to tell their girlfriends/wives. Now if those women ask about porn specifically I think it’s worth the conversation, but those women have to be reasonable. But usually—as evidenced by the women in your aforementioned example—they automatically and incorrectly peg us as “porn addicts” and wonder what’s wrong with us.
What you seem to be saying is “If a woman has a problem with pornography and her husband doesn’t stop watching it, he’s a thoughtless jerk.” That’s not true. Marriage does not mean doing whatever your wife says. If two people have different opinions about things, it does not mean the woman is always right.
Luckily my wife has zero problems with porn, and likes it herself sometimes. If she did have an issue, I’d listen and we’d discuss it. If she persisted and gave me an ultimatum—the “either porn goes or I go” speech—I would probably go. Not because I’m a porn freak, but because I would never want to be married to someone who lacked the ability to compromise and respect my point of view.
Any woman who would leave a man SOLELY because he watches some porn is ridiculous. And I have no qualms about saying that because it’s true.
Aaron, right back atcha:
Any man who would leave a woman SOLELY because she objects to his masturbating to porn is ridiculous. And I have no qualms about saying that because it’s true.
Hell, let’s leave the genders out of it, because I happily admit many women DO like porn and some men don’t. So Spouse 1′s longing to use porn matters. Spouse 2′s longing to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t use porn also matters. I’m willing to stipulate they matter equally. What gets my goat is the implication that Spouse 1′s wanting to use porn is “normal and healthy” while Spouse 2 is an unrealistic control freak. No, they both have needs that are EQUALLY VALID.
Aaron, will you grant that?
Hugo
Lets say its peanut butter. Aaron loves peanut butter because it makes him feel warm and fuzzy. His wife on the other hand cant stand it. Should Aaron have to stop eating peanut butter or should he just not eat it in front of her? Oh yeah, he might want to brush his teeth after he’s done.
First of all Hugo, as I already explained I wouldn’t leave because she didn’t like me masturbating to porn. I would leave because she’s giving me an unreasonable ultimatum based on something completely insignificant. That is a major red flag.
And no, actually I can’t grant you your last point. Here’s why…
First of all, let’s leave out those with porn addictions. They need help and have a problem. Instead, let’s talk about run-of-the-mill porn users. No lap dances, no phone sex, no prostitutes. Just your average joe who spanks it on occasion to free Internet porn. He doesn’t do it in the presence of his wife, because she doesn’t approve. He has a healthy sex life and his porn viewing does not interfere or detract from his marriage.
So in short, we have a woman upset about nothing. She doesn’t see him watch porn, she doesn’t hear him watch porn and he’s not choosing porn over her. Which begs the question: why the hell is she upset??
If she doesn’t like porn, she shouldn’t watch it. She has every right to her personal preference. But asking her husband to stop something he was doing long before he met her—not to mention something that has no bearing on her life—is ludicrous.
I’m a Red Sox fan. I hate the Yankees. But if I married a diehard New York fan do I have the right to tell her to stop rooting for the Yankees simply because they offend me greatly (which they absolutely do)?? No, of course not. I don’t like the fact that she roots for the Yankees, but I have no right to tell her to stop.
This is the same thing.
“his porn viewing does not interfere or detract from his marriage.”
Well. nothing could be more subjective than that. If she doesn’t want a sexual life that’s compartmentalized, if she wants all of the sexual energy flowing into the marriage and not dissipated elsewhere, that’s as valid a view as his is.
What bugs the crap out of me is the insistence that women are being shrewish harridans for wanting their partners to be sexual only with them. Men aren’t bad for saying no to that — but women aren’t wrong to ask or to make it a deal-breaker.
Sex is not like other human activities in terms of its ability to enthrall us and captivate us. It is normal, it is healthy, but it is also unique in its appeal to intimacy. And it’s wildly unreasonable for a woman to say “I want you to be intimate only with me, and I feel that masturbating to images of other women compromises that intimacy.” He doesn’t have to agree – but HE DOESN”T GET TO TELL HER THAT HER FEELINGS ARE UNREASONABLE. If he does that, he’s far more controlling than she.
So you’re anti-porn, but you’re perfectly okay with masturbation, but you respond with this? How, exactly, is masturbating with no visual stimulus any different from with visual stimulus? Women ARE being shrewish harridans for wanting their partners to be sexual only with them. I think it is completely unfair for women to demand that men never EVER masturbate (that is being sexual with yourself… whether porn is used or not is completely irrelevant) even if it has no affect on the sexual relationship. If I want to have sex and my girlfriend does not, why should I be required to remain sexually frustrated when I can masturbate and it will have no negative impact on her. Unless a woman is willing to commit and say “I will have sex with you any time you want it” then she has absolutely no grounds to demand that a man stop masturbating. Even then, I think it is completely and totally unfair to demand he stop doing something he has done forever and that he enjoys for himself.
I think that demanding that your husband/boyfriend not view porn ever, even if you don’t see it, hear it, or know it’s happening, is the definition of unreasonable. It is the same thing as demanding that a woman never EVER under any circumstances watch her favorite television show that you hate regardless of whether you know she is doing it or not.
This is the heart of the problem, when you write “What bugs the crap out of me is the insistence that women are being shrewish harridans for wanting their partners to be sexual only with them.”
You think a guy jerking off to porn is some kind of cheating. You think it’s being sexual with someone else. THIS IS NOT TRUE! If I’m watching porn I’m not “with” anyone. I’m by myself. I’m not cheating, I’m just whacking off. Probably because my wife can’t/won’t have sex with me at the time.
If you jerk off in the shower and Halle Berry pops into your head, are you cheating? Are you robbing her of sexual intimacy? Hell no. You’re jerking off. Even when you watch porn you haven’t had sex with another woman, kissed another woman, touched another woman…hell, you haven’t even been in the same room with another woman! I contend (again, unless we’re talking about a porn addict) this is a non-factor and has no bearing on the marriage.
But for the guys who are merely using porn to tide them over until they can once again be intimate with their wives, I can tell you with 100% certainty they are not doing anything wrong and the women are getting upset about nothing.
“So Cooper got it exactly right. While there are other reasons why people have sex, the desire to give and share pleasure is perhaps the most basic. And the more we center pleasure in our discussions with children, the more we equip them to say no to what hurts, what’s coerced, and what’s unwanted. And the more we empower them to say “yes” only to what feels good.
That’s the best foundation for good sex education I know”
Now those are interesting words coming from a person who also says things like this.
“Sex is not like other human activities in terms of its ability to enthrall us and captivate us. It is normal, it is healthy, but it is also unique in its appeal to intimacy.”
I am just wondering if you have a split personality?
Perfectly said, Hugo. The feelings of both partners on this issue are equally vaild.
Hugo, your use of gender-neutral Spouse 1 and Spouse 2 seems to contradict your earlier thesis that men should criticize men rather than women. To be specific, what if Spouse 1 is a woman? Does it still get your goat that her use of pornography is considered normal and healthy, while her husband is considered an unrealistic control freak? Or should we assume that in this case, she’s the horny one so it’s not a man’s place to question her choices, so it IS normal and healthy, and he IS being an unrealistic control freak?
Forgive me if I am a bit sarcastic. Although I don’t agree, I think it’s an entirely consistent position to hold that women are so disadvantaged relative to men that men should never presume to judge their actions—but it would be useful for your readers to know where you stand.
I don’t have a personal interest in this argument. I don’t watch porn because I consider almost all of it gross and off-putting. It wasn’t a considered decision so I don’t feel I deserve any credit for it. My girlfriend watches very occasionally, and I have no problem with that. If Melissa Farley were to succeed in eliminating pornography it would probably improve my life—less spam. (I assume the next step would be the outlawing of vibrators, which would be unequivocally negative.) I do want to know if advice to men is based on feminism or a kind of hyper-chivalry.
Hugo, you seem to be unable to differentiate between the people for whom no porn use from the partner is matter of principle, and those people who would rather just not know about it. As Aaron points out, there are many little lies people tell each other in a relationship. I would be willing to bet that, for a lot of women, their boyfriend or husband not telling them about their porn use is on a par with not telling them that they find picking their nose quite enjoyable, or like the taste of soap. They simple would prefer to not have that knowledge, rather than it being a key point on contention.
Also, there is a difference to being ‘critical’ and being ‘unsympathetic’. You can feel sympathy for Jill, as it’s very hard to imagine being in her position, while also criticising the actions she took.
Look at Hugo sexually oppressing women in archaic gender roles and muths. Yes Hugo, women aren’t 1/3 of online porn users.
Also, if the religious right and anti-sex feminism did manage to criminalize all porn and prostitution, through telling lies and pseudo-research would women ever stop selling sexual and sexuality?
Wrong. It IS women’s job to quit driving their puritanical anti-sex message at men whose only ‘crime’ in re:porn is indulging in fantasy.
Fantasy is the basis of all sexuality, and the senseless self-denial crowd, yes, WOMEN, are desperate to turn us all into neutered hulks.
A better man would SHOW his woman his porn collection, commenting on the aspects he finds stimulating and discussing with her all those portions which separate his fantasy from his reality.
Remember, if you don’t have the balls to show it to her, she WILL succeed in figuratively cutting off whatever you DO have.
I don’t know if there’s any chance in hell that this comment will get noticed at all. However, Hugo wrote:
“In the past 24 hours I’ve gotten at least a dozen requests to address this Newsweek piece, almost all of them from women. And several asked me the same plaintive question: are men really like this? One woman wrote, “Now I’m looking at all the men I know, and wondering what it is they’re really doing – and thinking.” Another wrote, “I’m so depressed. It seems like it’s impossible to find a man who isn’t addicted to porn.””
The questions were never addressed, at least not here (and I understand the point was to launch to another discussion). However, there are a lot of things that should (in my opinion) be brought out in the open.
Are men really like this? Some are. Most aren’t. But the reporting on the “exclusive” study certainly played up the dangerous and horrifying aspects of the entire spectrum of sex work. Most men would not rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it. Most men are horrified at that suggestion. Most men would care greatly about a fourteen year old who is kidnapped and forced to have sex with dozens of men every day. Most would be horrified.
Most people – male or female – who view porn are not going to become violent or endanger their partner in any way, shape, or fashion.
“Now I’m looking at all the men I know, and wondering what it is they’re really doing – and thinking.”
This is why each and every one of us should be outraged at Newsweek for the crap they presented as factual. How many women are now unfairly afraid of the men in their lives?
“I’m so depressed. It seems like it’s impossible to find a man who isn’t addicted to porn.””
The “study” considered anyone who viewed porn more than once in the last month as a habitual user. That is a long eternity from addiction.
I hope, Hugo, that you were able to help calm the hysteria privately. I just wish someone (maybe TIME) would do so in as public a fashion as Newsweek hyped it.
Let’s take a step back and think about pornography usage.
The reason a person, male or female, watches pornography is to become aroused. Either they take that arousal and use it for sexual activity with someone else, they use it to masturbate, or they simply do not act on it. Which one of these activities is so horrible? As a category, I’d have to argue that none of them are.
I can’t imagine that there is any concern of someone viewing pornography and then doing nothing afterwards, as if the viewing had never happened.
If the general feeling were that men watched pornography and then went to bed and had hot, passionate sex with their partners, I don’t think there would be any outrage. There might be some consideration if the man in question is experiencing a fantasy at the time of the sexual activity or if he is actually present 100% with his partner.
How is this different from any other night? Fantasies are not limited to people who have recently viewed pornography.
So I have to think that the outrage lies mostly with the knowledge that many of the men who watch porn are going to masturbate while doing so. But isn’t masturbation healthy? Of course!
So lets move on to the dishonesty. Most people do not lie for no reason at all. Lying is a purposive action. I would say that some men lie about porn because, for one reason or another, they are ashamed of their actions. Others do it to “spare” their partner’s feelings – i.e., to avoid a spat over it. I think it’s important to view these as two separate and distinct groups (with the understanding that some men may be in both groups).
While it is easy to say the second group should simply be honest about what they are doing and deal with the fallout. Great. So Man says, “Woman, I like to watch movies of anal sex and if you don’t like it, then you can divorce me.” Some women shrug. Some women say, “Well what if WE tried it?” Some women say, “You sick fuck! I’ll make sure you never see your kids again!”
Feel lucky?
It is more difficult to deal with the men in the first category. Let’s say they like to watch the same anal sex flicks that the example above used. But when they hear, “Just be honest,” they never even get to the point where they consider their partner’s feelings. They just think, “I’m a sick, disgusting, and twisted person. I’m probably not a good father or son or brother because of this.” Yeah, just go tell everyone. It’ll be okay!
I am sexually submissive and mildly masochistic. My partner knows and loves these aspects of my personality. But I’ve been married twice, and both of them were really turned off when these aspects of my sexuality began to surface. Because I was honest with two women about what turns me on – including the pornography that I was seeking out – four kids watched their parents go through a divorce. I got to hear one ex tell several people at church, “I just can’t respect him as a man. Not after I saw what he wanted.” My first ex is still waiting for me to announce that I’m gay, and has repeatedly told our children that.
Is honesty the best policy? Well, in my mid-40s I am now experiencing the wonderful sexual satisfaction and emotional intimacy that I have missed my entire life. But it took a lot of pain to get here.
The majority of the men in this thread seem to be arguing that nobody, especially their wives, girlfriends or partners have the right to insist on honesty and sanctity in their committed love relationship.
Some of you claim that your partners know about your porn usage and that it’s ok with them? Is that actually true or are those of you saying that you simply are not respecting their requests that you stop? Are you lying or deceiving them? Do you believe that you are entitled to fantasize, etc, on whatever you want and that does not interfere with your relationship? Newsflash, if your actions are upsetting, humiliating and generally destroying your partners then there is a problem. Either stop or get honest. Most likely you are lying to yourselves.
By the way, for my money, *Sex* is the new McCarthyism. Look at the news. We don’t go after people for substantive issues any more– we go after them for sex. Even the Wikilinks guy. So, the personal is used to divert people from the political. It’s the Nancy Gracization of the polity.