The recent Newsweek article on The Growing Demand for Prostitution is leading to some needed and heated discussion about male sexuality. Leslie Bennetts’ piece is based on a brand-new study of men who buy sex, and the first shock is how much difficulty the researchers had finding men who didn’t pay for sex.
…buying sex is so pervasive that (the researchers) had a shockingly difficult time locating men who really don’t do it. The use of pornography, phone sex, lap dances, and other services has become so widespread that the researchers were forced to loosen their definition in order to assemble a 100-person control group.
“We had big, big trouble finding nonusers,” Farley says. “We finally had to settle on a definition of non-sex-buyers as men who have not been to a strip club more than two times in the past year, have not purchased a lap dance, have not used pornography more than one time in the last month, and have not purchased phone sex or the services of a sex worker, escort, erotic masseuse, or prostitute.”*
The second shock is about men’s honesty – or lack thereof – around this issue.
In the past 24 hours I’ve gotten at least a dozen requests to address this Newsweek piece, almost all of them from women. And several asked me the same plaintive question: are men really like this? One woman wrote, “Now I’m looking at all the men I know, and wondering what it is they’re really doing – and thinking.” Another wrote, “I’m so depressed. It seems like it’s impossible to find a man who isn’t addicted to porn.”
What’s so frustrating isn’t just the percentage of men who pay for sex. It’s the percentage of men who lie about it to their wives and girlfriends, or who minimize the frequency of their porn use. “I used to have a problem with porn” is the grim equivalent of the famous “I used to have an eating disorder.” All too often, that’s wishful thinking if not outright deception. Frequently, what guys try to explain away as a past problem is instead an ongoing habit.
Because so many men are dishonest about sex, either lying directly or being “economical with the truth” about their private behavior, women are left feeling unsafe and mistrustful. Of course, not every single man uses porn or buys sex in other forms. But a great many do, as Newsweek reminds us, and they do include husbands and boyfriends, brothers and fathers, bosses and teachers, coaches and co-workers. That so many women are unsettled by that reality is as much a reflection of what they don’t know about the men in their lives as what they do.
Before we can have the important debate between those who advocate for abolition and those who push for decriminalization of sex work (a key point in the Newsweek article), we need to first get honest about what we’re doing when no one’s watching.
I’ve heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy) because, as one put it to me, “women go ballistic when you tell them the truth.” But it’s not women’s job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real. We owe it to the women we love – and to ourselves – to have the courage to name what it is we’re doing and how often we’re doing it.
Whatever your beliefs about porn and prostitution, we should be able to agree that the women (and men) who do sex work deserve to be treated with human dignity rather than contempt. In the same way, wives and girlfriends deserve the truth. It’s not too much to expect, and it’s not too much to ask.
* Lots of guys say that they only look at free porn online, and they object to being lumped in with those who use cash or credit to buy access to sex. But of course, virtually all “free” porn sites are supported by advertisers who often pay based on web traffic. Each visit is monetized one way or another; anyone who thinks he isn’t contributing financially to the industry because he isn’t paying doesn’t understand the economics of the web.
photo by carabendon / Flickr
About Hugo Schwyzer
Vocalyze
It’s not a bias against men. It’s a belief that men should call out other men before we call out women.(Hugo)
Ok sir, I call you out. The problem with your reasoning is the fact that you think men are just sperm donors and we have to acquiesce all of our parental rights because the mother is the incubator of our children. In a fair and equitable world mother and father would have rights, BEFORE and AFTER delivery. But alas, as we both know, this world isnt fair.
It seems that we, as a culture, have been drinking the kool-aid for so long that we’ve forgotten what free choice really is. Our culture has been bombarded and lured into hypersexualization from global promotional media ($) and the internet ($) at such intensity that sex and our hormones have been played in a way that more resembles mass brainwashing. Forget the kool-aid analogy, seems we drink from the river of deNile. Are we blocking ourselves from the fact or even the possibility that we, as a culture, are hooked on the sleazy and easy?
Try to stay on the topic of honesty in our sexuality. People that are brainwashed seem to dodge the topic and throw any sort of distraction onto the field. This article is about lying about our sexual activity and the effect that has in our relationships.
This subject matter is just trying to help us, as a culture, not to scold anyone or make them wrong. If you are upfront and honest about your sex life, great! Knock yourself out. Then this topic isn’t about you so there’s no reason to defend yourself or your lifestyle. But if you’re lying and deceptive then there seems to be an issue, and help is available to get through your blocks to honesty and a healthier expression of your true sexuality (not just the mimicry of sleaze).
Superb comments above Kenny!
Unforgivable cliches in above include “We as a society have become X,” “drinking the kool-aid,” “brainwashing,” and general abuse of the first person plural. (At least there was no mention of “sheeple.”) Sweeping generalizations give reasonable discussions the flavor of conspiracy theorist rants.
Its also very important to stress that men have no business interfering with their female partners spending quality time alone with porn, a faux penis, machines, erotic lit, a lover and that she should never be expected to disclose the real paternity of any children that he thinks he sired, but did not.
“But it’s not women’s job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real.” It may not be their job, but it’s how it is. If it’s not safe to be honest, most people won’t be. That’s just reality – you can’t wish it away, and you can’t change people by scolding them.
“If it’s not safe to be honest, most people won’t be”, and that is where the twist gets in. There’s all sorts of lies and reasons for lies. Some may be justified but when there is shame around the lie then there’s often a cascade of side-effects which, all in all, are damaging to both the partner in the relationship and to ourselves. Honesty is a difficult task that seems achieved by few. And I agree, that we can’t change people by scolding them and that’s not happening here. This article is about honesty and the fact that there’s so little of it. Seems a sad portrayal of our society.
When the risk of honesty is divorce, alienation in your community, loss of contact with your children…it can be a well-calculated decision to remain silent about one’s use of pornography. It makes it no less dishonest, but let’s not be blase about the risks and say, “Well, everyone should just be honest!”
Compare it to gay men who live in the closet. Sometimes there is a reason for it. And the biggest victim is often the person in the closet – because no one builds a closet of their own choosing.
Good point! Very true!
Men masturbate in secret. Most women masturbate in secret. But men get scolded for it and women?
Men need some understanding and right too. Getting into a relationship is not death so people should not be treated as if they are disembodied spirits. A woman does not own a man’s sexuality or expression thereof.
Women suffer from the new sexuality of men turning away from women for their sexual needs.
But then so many women are in denial that they are sexual or sexual only fro a price; 5 dates a dinner, a trip to the old stomping grounds for ego lift. No wonder it; less time consuming to hire than to date. The relationship, only if the joy goes both ways!
Women don’t usually use porn when they masturbate. So if you discover your partner masturbating, you will not know what she was thinking about. This means you don’t have to deal with any upsetting feelings her thoughts might cause you.
Men do not exist in isolation. It is no good for women blame men for something that is part of the whole culture. The reasons behind porn and sex services are complex and not just that men are bad and women are innocent victims, as this article suggests. Although watching porn and buying sex may not be the best use of one’s time and resources, it is a free country, mostly or supposedly, and we as individuals have to work out our challenges in life as best we can. Maybe giving sex a more honourable place in our society would be a start, instead of relegating it to the “sin” category in any religion or the “too embarrassing to be seen or talked about” in more general society.
At the risk of being labeled a moral degenerate, I would hesitate to put all “spending money on pornography” in the category of “paying for sex.” Essentially, the man who buys a “lad mag” is therefore in the same category as a man who picks up a streetwalker? (I don’t think prostitution should be illegal, but that’s merely a related “degeneracy” on my part and not central to the issue at hand.)
Seriously? Looking at nude pictures on the internet is the same as paying a stranger for bareback anal sex?
What I see is a needlessly broad category for a demographic study. Of course you will find it hard to have a comparison group when you define something so generally. You may as well try to categorize men into those who have never masturbated and those who have. Lots of luck with finding a big enough sample size for each.
If we’re going to define “paying for sex” so sweepingly broadly, let’s include all financial exchanges associated with sexual relationships. In this category you could also put the cost of many marriage licenses, any money spent on birth control, lubricants, and sex toys, all money spent on sex education, credit card receipts from many romantic dates, and any fees for matchmaking services. Even the cost of doing certain loads of laundry could be considered a sex-related expense.
Had you read the article on Newsweek you would see that your comment is only confirming what the researcher found:-
“Many experts believe the digital age has spawned an enormous increase in sexual exploitation; today anyone with access to the Internet can easily make a “date” through online postings, escort agencies, and other suppliers who cater to virtually any sexual predilection. The burgeoning demand has led to a dizzying proliferation of services so commonplace that many men don’t see erotic massages, strip clubs, or lap dances as forms of prostitution. “The more the commercial sex industry normalizes this behavior, the more of this behavior you get,”
Therefore the term “paying for sex” in this instance refers to a preference for something of a sexual nature..not the act itself.
amazed,
I recognize your point and agree that the use of the internet has possibly changed people’s definitions of prostitution or “paying for sex.” (Ignoring for the moment the question of whether the increasing number of sites is a cause or an effect or both.)
I was focusing mostly on the GMP post. The Newsweek article has its own problems with hysterical language and alarmist reasoning. For one thing, defining “paying for sex” as “expressing a preference online” seems a bit odd. By that argument, I have paid for sex just by writing into this blog on occasion.
My objection to Schwyzer’s article was the suggestion that looking at pornography is essentially in the same category as hiring prostitutes. Of course there is some overlap between the porn industry and sex work. It would be totally naive of me to suggest there is some kind of firewall. But, it still sounds like a bit of a rhetorical trick to group all these things under “the commercial sex industry.”
I would suggest that there is a reasonable distinction between “consuming porn” individually and interacting with someone for sexual pleasure. Others might not make that distinction, and that’s valid for them, but it seems to me there is a difference between looking at videos and paying someone to rub your body. And for that matter a difference between looking at videos and meeting someone online for a one-night stand with no money exchanged.
This blog could engage in a long discussion about whether looking at porn is immoral, whether it’s a form of adultery, etc. Objectively, though, it could be immoral and still not be prostitution. Branding it as prostitution puts it in a much simpler moral light, but I would argue that the issue is not that simple.
If looking at porn and visiting a prostitute are comparable, then let’s look at it from another angle: if they are anywhere close to equivalent, then a husband may as well just go to a prostitute instead of looking at porn online. I mean, if they’re the same thing, why waste time with a poor screen resolution or slow download speed? If this argument sounds ridiculous, then that suggests there really is a fundamental difference.
CJ,
Yes, I think the same way. You’re onto something big here.
I think a lot of this debate about porn within a relationship is really a question about masturbation, about which kinds are acceptable and which kinds are not. Or about what is else he is doing while he is masturbating. I don’t think society can really have an honest, realistic discussion of porn if it can’t get around taboos about talking about masturbation.
I think much of the disagreement is about what parts of a man’s sexuality, if any, are outside of his relationship with his partner. Some of the disagreement seems to boil down to the source of the man’s fantasies – where do the thoughts come from when a man is engaged in sexual activity? Are there some sources that are acceptable (only when fantasizing about his wife!) but others are not?
I would suggest there is an even deeper philosophical question here – do thoughts count as actions or are they two very different things? I think men and women tend to answer this very differently. Not a hard and fast rule, just a broad generalization, but in my experience women tend to think of a man’s thoughts as the same as actions. Men tend to see their thoughts as very distinct from their actions and that they should not be subject to strict accounting for what they think about.
My ex-husband introduced me to light porn. We even bought a lovemaking dvd set and it was good. Then he wanted to watch bisexual porn. That quickly turned to gay porn. Then it was all gay porn and more raw. The day it featured boys who did not look of age, I nearly threw up. He wanted to be the little boy. There is still a lot I don’t know about that man and never want to. I have no idea who he is.
I appreciate the comment and I liked it because it would be a shame for it to be hidden. This sounds like it was (and is) incredibly painful. I still believe your ex is a tiny minority of me, but that is not really comforting when it’s the guy you thought you were going to spend your life with.
If he wanted to be the little boy, then there is possibility that he once WAS the little boy and he was abused. I’m not sure if you assumed he was a sicko, but if you did you might want to realize that with stats or 1 in 6 males being victims of childhood sexual abuse the possibility he had a tragic past could be quite high. Our society loves to assume to the worst of someones character but forgets just how tragic the past of many of our “worst” people can be. I hope if he was abused that he is able to get judgment-free help and support for it.
I don’t see the difference between looking at “free” online porn and paying for it. The outcome and product is pretty much the same no?
The whole article makes me depressed and feel defeated when it comes to men.
This is the type of comment that I had hoped Hugo would address, rather than me hitting at it down here in the comments.
Are the product and outcome the same? In the vast majority of cases, I’d say yes, they are.
The question I’d raise is: So what does this mean about a relationship and/or the people within it? Does it mean that the man is somehow defective? Does it mean that he sees his partner as defective?
I’m not prying, but I do wonder if the “depressed” response to the article has to do with the very poorly designed study that casts nearly all men as being one step away from sexual predators, or if there is something else at work here.
Probably all of the above Tomio.
I however didn’t think the article was casting men in a sexual predator light.
I do however think that the article is acknowleding how many men define and aid their sexuality through the different facets of the sex trade industry. Whether that be porn, strip clubs, lap dances, webcams..yada yada yada.
My question is why do so many men define their ability to be sexual and sexually fullfilled through things like porn and strippers?
If you read the article, it is very clearly slanted towards showing men as being violent. So, too, has much of the hysteria revolved around the feeling of safety being ripped away.
Personally, I’ve never understood the allure of strippers. It seems cheap and tawdry to me. Same thing with actual prostitution. Just not my thing.
Porn, however, was a window into sexuality that I had never seen or even heard about. And it let me see things and experience things vicariously that would have endangered me to do first hand. That vicarious experience allowed me to gain a much better understanding of who I am.
But I do not say that ALL or even MOST men are viewing porn with that kind of intent.
It seemed to me that the article by Hugo did all it could to put as big of a group of men as possible in the same box with the ones who buy prostitutes and prowl on victims of human trafficking. Anything to place shame on men.
About the question of why so many men define their sexuality through porn. Personally I have never been approached by women with any sexual intent I could detect and having been raised in a society where every aspect of my sexuality has been branded as evil, porn IS the only way to express my sexuality.
Free porn is often done by amateurs. The bodies tend to be more real and the behavior more believable.
I think free porn is everywhere. Not just through “amateurs”.
Depends on your definition of porn…I can see where you’re going with this though.
I’m refering to the fact that you can just type the word ‘porn” into a search engine and see a billion free video uploads that aren’t just “amateurs”.
Ummmm…I just typed “porn” into my iphone search engine the top four results were:
PornHub, RedTube, YouPorn, and Orgasm.com. All of these sites offer free porn uploaded by amateurs much in the same way YouTube works. I’m not saying nobody’s making money off this business model but it is run differently than the traditional porn industry. There are a lot more small, independent players involved.
“I’ve heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy) because, as one put it to me, “women go ballistic when you tell them the truth.” But it’s not women’s job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real. We owe it to the women we love – and to ourselves – to have the courage to name what it is we’re doing and how often we’re doing it.”
This is the second article I’ve read by you and both smack of this kind of oversimplification and generalization.
This is sensationalism trying to be passed off as intellectual debate. No, it’s not “women’s job to ratchet down their anger” but it’s a human’s personal responsibility (regardless of gender) to attempt to temper their response to other human’s actions if they want to continue trying to foster healthy relationships of any sort.
What does it mean to “ratchet down” one’s anger? This type of vague and sensational writing will only spawn the kind of useless, name calling, issue flaring argument as displayed here.
From what I’ve observed in my lifetime, it’s my opinion that all of us want to be loved and to love, to feel respected and cherished and nurtured by others. If you agree with that basic premise then it follows that we should all do our best to be honest and respectful of each other’s feelings. Male or female doesn’t come into it unless you have some issues that still need working out.
Not that I’m saying I’m issue free. I have irrational fears and behaviours that I know about and I know from experience that if I can overcome them there are more that I’m not currently aware of that will come into focus for me. The main thing to me though, is that we all need to stop attempting to lay blame on one group or another and always start by asking ourselves, “why is my reaction to another’s action so extreme?” We may decide that yes, they have wronged us, or that our feelings are irrational and based on fear or past trauma. Whatever. We are all human and fallible and need to be able to forgive, and ask for forgiveness and continue to flail about trying to make it work. Making final, black and white statements about one gender or another and attempting to make blanket statements about what is right and wrong behavior when so much of this is a huge grey area is not a place to start from though. That much I know.
I’ve been what I’d call a casual “user” of porn through my life. I’ve never actually paid for porn but I have viewed it for free and I have masturbated to it a number of times. I’ve seen porn that has sickened me and I’ve seen some that I found extremely erotic. (And there’s another aspect that I haven’t even seen raised here, erotic art vs. porn. Is there a difference? If you believe so then how do you define the difference?) I’ve always been reluctant to be honest to my partners about my use of porn mainly out of fear of hurting their feelings but never because I’ve felt what I was doing was wrong or diminished the love or attraction I felt for them.
I had one partner that, when she accidentally found out about my use, was extremely upset and hurt and after a long talk I was happy to agree to not use it again. I didn’t view it other than with her for the remaining years of that relationship. She was ok with me masturbating if she wasn’t “in the mood” but she expressed clearly how my viewing porn made her feel that she “wasn’t enough for me” and raised fears for her that I would be unfaithful or want to leave her for someone else. Although I didn’t think her fears were logically valid I was happy to take her feeling into consideration and I easily agreed to remove that difficulty from our relationship. Because I loved her and yes, whether or not I looked at pictures of naked women really was not that important to me one way or another.
Another example is my current partner who asked me straight out, early in our relationship, if I used porn and what my take on it was. I was concerned that she too would be hurt but because she asked, I did my best to describe to her how I had used it in the past, how frequently and what kind of porn or art I found arousing or personally distasteful. She was totally fine with it and told me that she doesn’t think it has the same appeal for women as it does for men but that she was curious about it and actually explored some with me. I use it very seldom and she is fine with that. So far we have a good sex life and I have little to no reason to seek out porn or to even masturbate but I have and may again within the context of this relationship.
But these are only two examples of the myriads of possible combinations of this scenario. There is no wrong and right answer here for any one gender or gender identity in my opinion. If we are truly going to evolve and grow as a species we all need to try to learn to say “you hurt me” or “you angered me” without exacerbating the situation and we all need to try to learn to look at ourselves honestly and ask for forgiveness when needed. We might be able to work out our differences or not. The relationship(s) may continue or not but if we owe anything to each other it’s just the willingness to lay blame on ourselves just as much as we do on others.
I generally have serious issues with feminists and am still debating with myself whether or not that is really because of them, or because of me, but to quote one of my favourite female artists who may just be one: “The world owes us nothing, but we owe each other the world.”
I have to express my admiration for the posters in this thread. I believe this is the first internet comment thread of more than two entries I have ever read that did not devolve into name-calling and personal insults.
The author, and several commenters, seem to share some assumptions that I would like to call out and challenege:
- Pornography and masturbation are somehow wrong, or at least debased, and indulging in them is a weakness.
I disagree completely, and I suspect that this attitude comes almost entirely from the, not to mince words, demented ways that we represent sexuality to our children (which warped us as children).
- Pornography and masturbation are substitutes for sex, attractive mostly to those whose sex lives are less active.
This is simply untrue. For many people (or at least many men), and I would bet it’s the majority, these activities have intrinsic entertainment value. Playing sports doesn’t mean you lose interest in watching sports, does it?
- Viewing pronography and masturbating are forms of infidelity.
This is just ridiculous. You can’t be attracted to your wife without being attracted to women in general. Being faithful means being kind, being honest, and keeping your promises. It doesn’t mean never thinking about another woman. I don’t know why so many women find this hard to accept, but it’s true whether you like it or not. Your husband or boyfriend fantasizes about other women. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you, or that he would ever act on such a thought. Any dialog about being honest has to include recognition of the fact that this is how it is. I frankly find it hard to believe that this isn’t also true of most women.
Is my identification of these assumptions correct?
I’ve heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy) because, as one put it to me, “women go ballistic when you tell them the truth.” But it’s not women’s job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real. We owe it to the women we love – and to ourselves – to have the courage to name what it is we’re doing and how often we’re doing it.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason that they lie is because they don’t want them to go ballistic?
While there’s nothing wrong with her being angry but there are proper ways of expressing it. Going ballistic is not one of them. Flip this around and there is no way people would be saying “its not his job to ratchet down his anger in order to make it safe for women to get real”.
How can you expect anyone from porn watchers to abuse victims and back to be able to get real when they are facing nothing but rage and anger from their audience? (In fact isn’t that part of why feminists and MRAs have such a hard time making leeway on each others sites? Because the rage and anger of the locals runs them off.)
“… it’s not women’s job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real. ”
I wonder, Hugo, if you feel the same way about a man who goes ballistic over a woman’s use of porn,
or perhaps her use of a vibrator or a sex toy? Do men have no responsibility for controlling their anger when interacting with the women in their lives? Is it not ever a man’s job to ratchet down his anger to make it safe for the women in his life to get real?
In Hugo’s rabbit warren little mind, women’s anger is always legitimate, and men’s anger is always illegitimate. It is one of the feminist axioms that he uses to form his world view.
I have to say I tend to agree with Linguist based on the three articles I’ve read so far by this author. Is this the Good Men Project or the Bad Men Project? Are their editors reviewing this stuff before it’s published and if so, then what is the agenda of this magazine?
Rael’s flipping the scenario and asking if it’s men’s responsibility to control their anger when interacting with women reminded me of a personal example. I had a partner who I discovered was using vibrators on her own and my initial reaction was feeling hurt, threatened and angry. I didn’t think this justified me acting out in an angyr or accusatory way with her. What I did do was search my feelings and fears and then ask her for reassurance that they were unfounded. (She convinced me they were and although it took some time, I got over my bruised ego.)
When I have any kind of extreme emotional response to any one else’s actions I always check with myself where that might be coming from before acting on those emotions. This is a life skill I have learened through experience, regret, positive reinforcement, counselling, good examples in my life and discussion with friends. I actually think of this as one of the skills and attitudes that makes me somewhat more mature and adult than I have been in the past.
Am I not allowed to expect that my partner attempt to control her anger in a similar scenario simply because she is female? Wouldn’t that actually be a chauvanistic attitude? Equal until she’s too weak to control her emotion because she’s female?
And I only expect her to try. We all have our emtions get away from us from time to time. I know I still do. But another life skill I’ve learned is how to call BS on myself and apologize and ask for forgiveness when necessary. I expect that I should allow my partner, and all other significant people in my life, the same luxury.
“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
> In the same way, wives and girlfriends deserve the truth. It’s not too much to expect, and it’s not too much to ask.
Except that I would imagine that most wives and girlfriends do not expect, nor want, the whole truth. Or husbands and boyfriends for that matter. I think a lot of us are perfectly happy to know intellectually that our partners use porn and masturbatory aids, without wanting to know the exact type, frequency, or any other details. Just because we are in a relationship, doesn’t mean we feel the need to control or be involved in every facet of the other partner’s sexuality.
Hugo, I swear you are the Joseph Keller of feminist male bashing. You just got done writing a series of posts about how it’s perfectly okay for women to be “economical with the truth” when they fail to tell their husbands that they might not really be the real fathers. I guess that’s perfectly reasonable, but men be damned if they watch a little porn. Then you wrote about how we really shouldn’t celebrate men’s sexuality until men learn to stop making women feel unsafe and mistrustful. And here you are now saying that men who are compelled to keep their sexuality a secret are the ones who are making women feel unsafe and mistrustful.
You know, it’s a free world. You know, you had a bunch of women tearfully write to you asking for advice on male sexuality and you cheated them. Maybe they were upset because they wish that their partners were completely open and comfortable about their own sexuality in the relationship. And maybe the reason they can’t be open is because our culture stigmatizes male sexuality to the point where husbands can’t even trust their wives to understand. Maybe these women feel hurt because they’ve been brought up to believe that their own sexual needs should be more than enough to fully reciprocate a loving husband and they can’t understand why they’re failing by societal standards. Or maybe they’re complete idiots. Maybe they’ve been brought up by bigoted feminists to believe that male sexuality is inherently evil and thought themselves to have found the one guy in the world who is a woman with male genitals. The point is, all of these issues could be addressed by celebrating male sexuality, but you ended up bashing it some more. Thanks for that disservice to the women who turned to you for help.
I forgot to finish my thought, above
I meant to say it’s a free world: women can choose to watch porn just as easily as men. If women really wanted to, men would be lined up around the block with job applications to Chip and Dale’s opening on every block. If women don’t feel compelled to do it, it just means that they are slightly different from men. So why come into a discussion about male sexuality by stigmatizing it right off the bat? Why is it that no matter what men do, Hugo’s response is that men are scum who make women fear them. Projecting much?
What aspects of male sexuality would you celebrate that you feel aren’t currently celebrated? I’m curious because it seems like male sexuality, the male view of sex and of women and male sexual needs and desires are celebrated in our culture everywhere — just look at the prevalence of porn. I see very little evidence that male sexuality is being squelched in any way.
Jill, that’s really an excellent question. I would say that the real answer requires an understanding of what it actually means to celebrate something and an understanding of what that thing actually is. I would hardly say that our society celebrates porn. If that was the case, we’d let our kids watch Debby Does Dallas before we ever considered letting them watch The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and husbands would be at ease to openly discuss these aspects of their sexuality with their wives. But that’s porn, it’s hardly everything. Start at something as basic as the penis and how society treats it as some sort of vulgar thing. Some straight women are actually disgusted by penises. We can’t show them in movies, etc., and if a guy were to expose himself in public he’d get labeled a sex offender whereas if a woman flashes her breasts that’s generally okay. Anyway, it would take days to truly answer your question and I don’t think I’m the most articulate person out there to try to convince you. It would be a great start if people started to ask themselves if there was something more to male sexuality than porno and 5 minutes in some form of hole.
Well, vaginas aren’t flashed in films either, and male breasts are constantly shown, so what’s your point?
You’re dissembling. Full frontal nudity is in fact more common for women than for men and female breasts are considered to be sexual by society, maybe because they serve a reproductive function. And it’s not because women are being exploited or objectified, but because the male form is vilified.
Clearly, you’re missing the point and not seeing the alternatives. Compare our culture to classical and renaissance art where male and female nudity both played a prominent role and were celebrated to an equal extent. Compare ours to classical cultures where they didn’t just enjoy pornography, but literally embraced it right down to erotic lawn ornaments, huge wall murals, and a general openness about it. Our culture relegates porn to seedy shops in shady districts and forces men to engage in it secretively, and you consider this to be celebratory of male sexuality. That’s just crazy.
Hi Dungone, those are good points (although I have to say that many people, including women, feel that vaginas are as gross as penises, if not grosser!) I would love to think that men feel there is more to their own sexuality than porn and 5 min. of P in V. I wish more men would talk about that. In my own sex life, for example, I’ve learned that many men love cuddling after sex even more than I do even though that’s contrary to the stereotype. Traditional gender stereotypes harm men as much as women.
I’ve seen some surveys that show that men consistently place more importance on cuddling than women do. I don’t have a link, but I think you’re onto something with that observation.
I would love to think that men feel there is more to their own sexuality than porn and 5 min. of P in V.
I bet a lot of men do but I bet there are those that don’t but if its not then that’s no reason to villify them (and there are a ot of people who really do come down hard on men who actually fit that stereotype as if there is no possible and honest way he could have developed it on his own).
And there’s also a matter of mood. Sometimes there will be times when a guy really does just want that 5min PIV. And there are women who want that at times too. But here’s where it gets tricky.
While the mainstream of porn may cater to that male desire of a 5minPIV bear in mind that porn, despite its penetration into mainstream culture in general, is still often considered a bad thing (you might even say that its penetrated the mainstream because its considered a bad thing, bearing in mind how often “bad = good” in pop culture). And this is going on at the same time that people are trying to say that a woman wanting a 5minPIV is not a bad thing.
You know how in regards to sex and gender roles “real men” are supposedly overcome with eternal lust and just want it quick and dirty while “real women” have no lust and never want it quick and dirty, with the understanding that deviating from those roles means that one is a “pathetic loser” or “slut”? Well it seems that people want it to be known that a woman that wants it quick and dirty is just as “real” as a woman that doesn’t while at the same time simultaneously demonizing the guy that wants it quick and dirty (womanizer, leach, dog, sleaze, player whose connotation is turning from positive to negative, perv, creep, and he doesn’t respect women) and the guy that doesn’t want it quick and dirty (pathetic, loser, wimp, gay, and of course using virgin in a negative manner).
I think its important to give men a chance to discover if they want more than the 5minPIV but that should not have to come at the cost of forever demonizing men that do. Even in the line, “ I would love to think that men feel there is more to their own sexuality than porn and 5 min. of P in V.“. To a lot of guys that comes off sounding like “I hope he likes more than that because if not he’s worthless, I’m sure you don’t mean it that way just offering a possible interpretation.
Hi Danny, well I didn’t mean to demonize anyone, but what I meant by “porn and 5 min of P in V” was the negative cultural stereotype that presents men as walking penises who spend their lives going around looking for convenient orifices to stick themselves into. Unfortunately that’s what’s presented in most porn I’ve seen. Here’s a big dick, here’s an orifice to stick it in, yay. Honestly, most porn bores me more than it offends me. Of course, in a real sexual relationship, sometimes it’s fun to be quick and dirty, and sometimes my partner and I have a great time that way. But he’s always interested in whether or not it’s fun for me. I don’t intent to “vilify” men who have no interest in anything other than 5 min. of P in V, but I certainly don’t want to sleep with them.
Porn use isn’t cheating, and girls need to chill the fuck out about it. Seriously.
It’s irrational. Just like men freaking out that their girlfriends having sex toys. A vibrator isn’t a replacement for intimacy. It’s a tool for getting off. Same as porn.
*You might say that the difference is that the girlfriend’s toy doesn’t have the bad ethical aspects that porn does, since the porn industry is exploitative. Well, if I had that moral issue, I’d find my partner ethical porn. Perhaps made by feminist, vegan amateurs. Because I care about him being happy and I’m not some jealous psycho.
So glad I’m gay. *sigh*
Oh Stephan!
If you weren’t gay, I’d totally date you!
Stephan, porn use isn’t cheating to *you*. And that’s great. But everyone should be allowed to set the perimeters of their own relationship based on what they are comfortable with. Refering to women as “jealous psychos” doesn’t do anything to help the converation and it’s not even a health or honest protrayl about what’s going on with women.
Yes, but Stephan does make an excellent point which is that gay male couples rarely view porn as an issue in their relationship. They know one or both of them view it. They know it isn’t cheating. They know it doesn’t mean a thing about they feel for each other. It’s a non-issue. One does have to wonder why women are so eager to pathologize this behavior and why they are so threatened by it.
You don’t know every single gay couple out there, and neither does Stephen. Individuals are individuals. Porn is cheating in my relationship, and my fiance has no problem with this viewpoint. When he first mentioned his porn viewing, I was honest with him and did not go ballistic. I simply explained why I felt it was cheating, and he had no problem putting it away because he respects me enough and knows porn is not a need for him.
It’s silly to feel a partner is demanding or jealous or controlling when he or she stops asking you to view porn. How hard is it to give up something you don’t need, assuming you’re not addicted?
Would you be willing to share with us why you feel that it’s cheating? Because I just can’t understand that, and it appears that I’m not alone in that.
Here’s a quote from Dan Savage:
“But of all the issues I get letters about form straight couples, battling over porn—it’s use, it’s production, it’s concealment—is right up there in the top three…I never, however, get letters from gay men expressing the same sentiment, more proof that gay men are men first and gay second. For us, it seems, porn is a non-issue.” (http://chemistry.typepad.com/the_great_mate_debate/2007/08/reading-about-p.html)
I’m happy for you that you’ve found yourself a partner who doesn’t watch porn.
Maybe I don’t NEED my Jupiter wand, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to give it up. Maybe I don’t NEED my erotic short stories, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to give them up. Maybe I don’t NEED my porn, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to give it up. All of these things enrich and open my sex life, encourage me to explore my boundaries, my inhibitions, my limits. If I had ruled out any or all of these things from my life I would not have had the wonderful, beautiful, pleasurable, erotic experiences I have had. My sexuality would not be bringing me the joy it now does. I guarantee it.
I won’t give that up for anyone. It was too hard won and is now to central to my life. I give the men and women in my life the same respect I want for myself.
Jupiter wands, erotic short stories and other such things are more easily seen as enriching a woman’s sexual life and opening it. Yet anything man would use is sure as h*ll not seen “enriching” nor “opening”. The sexuality of men is demonized at every turn.
It’s silly to feel a partner is demanding or jealous or controlling when he or she stops asking you to view porn. How hard is it to give up something you don’t need, assuming you’re not addicted?
Couldn’t you just as easily say that it would be silly to feel a parther is cheating or “has no respect for women” or “doesn’t accept women the way the are” for watching porn? How hard is it to just have a “don’t watch it when I’m around” policy? Why a “you have to get rid of that” policy?
What I’m getting at is there are people on both sides saying that the other side is being unreasonable.
“How hard is it to give up something you don’t need, assuming you’re not addicted?”
Forgive me for taking that quote a little out of context, but I’m trying to point out that it may not be a perfect rule to follow. The vast majority of things in a relationship are not really necessary, in fact intimate relationships themselves are not strictly necessary, but that does not mean that they are all expendable. Husbands and boyfriends don’t technically need sex. Wives and girlfriends don’t technically need conversation from their partners. No one absolutely needs TV shows, movies, or the internet. No spouse actually needs the other spouse, and no one is going to die without orgasms or cuddling. For that matter, no one really needs monogamy – if a husband asks his wife to give that up, why can’t she give that up when she doesn’t need it?
I was just thinking about something this morning. I think some men hide their porn use because they don’t want to feel disapproved of. (I am not suggesting that I think this is a good reason to hide it but it is a reason why men might hide it.) They want to feel accepted within their relationship. And I think some women dislike porn use because it also makes them feel that they aren’t being accepted for who they are as women in the relationship and sexually. So we have both sides of the coin that want to feel accepted within their relationship but this thing in the middle, porn, comes inbetween the desire for each gender to want to feel accepted for who they are.
I can only say for myself as a woman that most porn doesn’t make me feel that men accept women for who they are. And I don’t see alot that is about celebrating real women for who they are sexually. Instead, it’s this whole world that tells us what men wished we were. Young forever, perfect bodies, sex crazed, willing to do anything to our own bodies to please men. The list goes on. But just like men aren’t feeling accepted in their relationships, porn can easily make women feel like they aren’t accepted either.
I really am sincerely curious why many guys feel that their sexuality and their sexual fullfillment is intrinsic to porn use ….strip clubs…the sex trade in general.
Erin,
I don’t enjoy most porn either. It’s boring, unimaginative, and it’s not clear the woman is actually getting off. I seek out porn that I do like. I often share it with others in my life. The men have always been grateful and ask me where I find it. Many times, they want good porn as well that honors both women and men but don’t know where to look.
I understand there’s a lot of negative messages out there about women’s bodies. It’s true. It does cause insecurities. I know I feel them from time to time. But, when it comes to sex, I think men value confidence and desire more than perfect bodies or youth.
I really am sincerely curious why many guys feel that their sexuality and their sexual fulfillment is intrinsic to porn use ….strip clubs…the sex trade in general.
Because they are getting something out of porn that they are not getting in their relationship?
Now hold up a moment on that one. People seem to think that that “something” is inherently better than the woman they are in the relationship with therefore porn must be bad. That’s not necessarily the case. That something could be something he wants to try but he’s afraid she’ll deny it or perhaps deny it and pass final judgment on him or maybe she’s already denied it and he’s just living vicariously through the porn.
As has been said already a guy that says he wants to try some sex act that’s considered “immoral” could be a one way ticket to SingleTown. And its not always the acts the people associate with “degrading women”.
In a perfect world where people in relationships could actually have a fair chance to truly express their desires when it comes to sex I think porn watching would be drastically reduced, but no eliminated. Because even in that perfect world there will still people like DaddyFiles who watches porn with his partner and they are both enjoying it. But now that I think about it perhaps even then it may not be reduced so much if you take into account people who introduced something in the bedroom and their partner flat out denied it. That person may still want to try it and try to drown the feeling in porn. (Because its not like being told by your partner that they don’t want to do a certain act is not going to (always) just magically cause that desire to disappear.)
I can only say for myself as a woman that most porn doesn’t make me feel that men accept women for who they are. And I don’t see a lot that is about celebrating real women for who they are sexually. Instead, it’s this whole world that tells us what men wished we were.
You’re free to feel that way. But to me as a man porn (when watched within reason) is a matter of looking at something different, not inherently better. That is not to say that a said porn watcher does not accept that woman for who she is (finding another person attractive is not an indicator that you think they are more attractive than your partner or that you want your partner to be more like that other person). And as for the celebrating I think it does since (most of) the women in porn are doing what they want, in other words being who they are sexually. Are there people who watch porn that do go the route you mention and actually do hold real women to unfair standards? Yes. Are there people who truly (and by truly I mean the difference between bringing up giving the wife a facial and her being okay with it and giving her a facial without her consent or the difference between forceful sex and actually raping a woman) want to degrade, humiliate, and disrespect women for their own sexual pleasure?
Yes there are people who look down upon porn stars but that’s hardly everyone. And let’s not act like the negative stigma of porn is solely the work of porn watchers (even the ones that go too far and actually embody the behavior you mention).
I’ve seen anti-porn types who are just as bad, if not worse, in their treatment of porn stars. Its one thing to get enjoyment out of watching a woman get a facial (which is supposedly a sure indicator that one has no respect for women), its quite another to tell a woman that the only reason she’s doing porn (or sex work for that matter) is because she must have been abused in her past (but rewriting her life is just fine I guess).
Even in this thread so far there have been people a few keystrokes from straight telling porn watchers that our watching of porn just has to be an indication that we don’t respect women in general (in fact didn’t someone earlier say that DaddyFiles was being ridiculous to think his wife wasn’t bothered by his porn watching?), despite there being porn watchers in this thread that have positive and respectful relationships with women (and not necessarily couples either but with women in general).
“‘I really am sincerely curious why many guys feel that their sexuality and their sexual fulfillment is intrinsic to porn use ….strip clubs…the sex trade in general.’
Because they are getting something out of porn that they are not getting in their relationship?
Now hold up a moment on that one. People seem to think that that “something” is inherently better than the woman they are in the relationship with therefore porn must be bad. That’s not necessarily the case. That something could be something he wants to try but he’s afraid she’ll deny it or perhaps deny it and pass final judgment on him or maybe she’s already denied it and he’s just living vicariously through the porn.”
Speaking for myself, an occasional viewer of pornography who is currently in a very, very active and satisfying sexual relationship, what I get out of it is something of an entirely different kind than what I get out of that relationship. It’s entertainment. I am a straight man, and it’s simply fun to look at pretty women. It has nothing to do with my personal relationships. Just as I can enjoy a movie where a guy is in a series of firefights and high-speed chases without actually wanting to do those things, I sometimes enjoy watching a depiction of people who’ve just met engaging in wild sexual antics, even though I don’t do that. It’s often fun to fantasize about doing things that one would not do in real life. And as Jeni points out above, it can help you learn to understand your own desires and boundaries.
“But it’s not women’s job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real.”
No, it is. If you want me being honest, you have to deserve it.
If someone (man or woman doesn’t matter) is “punished” because he has been honest, is any surprise he won’t be as straightforward the next time?
Trust is something you have to win, not something granted. If you behave like my enemy, how could I be your ally?
I’m naturally quite honest and straightforward… but I learned (the hard way) that not everybody deserves my truth.
Anybody “going ballistic” is a sure winner for being lied upon.
Going back in time here a bit.
I’ve heard from many guys who tell me that they lie about porn (and the other kinds of sex they may buy) because, as one put it to me, “women go ballistic when you tell them the truth.” But it’s not women’s job to ratchet down their anger in order to make it safe for men to get real. We owe it to the women we love – and to ourselves – to have the courage to name what it is we’re doing and how often we’re doing it.
Okay from this passage I think we can safely say that men should just “man up” and be honest with their wives. Cool. How can you expect those men to be honest when they are expecting an explosion? Just as all men aren’t dishonest about their porn watching not all women will blow up when they find out. Just as there are men who are dishonest about their porn watching there are women who will blow up when they find out.
What I think I’m seeing here is the notion that women should be free to blow up and make as big a mushroom cloud as they want while men simply shouldn’t be dishonest. So I guess we need to get down to why they are being dishonest right? Not much chance of that happening if they are expecting a reaction that will prove why they were lying in the first place.
So either women lean back enough so the truth can come to light (no I’m not saying they can’t get mad, I’m saying not to “go balistic”) or keep setting landmines around these men and then getting mad when they refuse to step into the light.
Ideally they said men should not have to lie but instead of just saying they have no reason to lie why not find out why they lie and put those underlying fears to rest?
(And while I’m willing to say this exact same thing if the genders were swapped my money says that this post would not exist if the genders actually were swapped.)
You sir, are wrong and stupid. I also believe that your man-card is revoked.