Are There Good Guys in Porn? An Interview With Porn Star James Deen

‘My name is James. I am a simple guy who likes to eat, sleep, and watch TV. Oh yeah, I also bang chicks for a living.’

So goes the Twitter bio of 25-year-old porn actor James Deen. 24,000 followers might not stand out in the ranks of mainstream celebrities, but for a man who most would say is merely a prop, Deen has quite the fan base. Most of those followers are women, and they are not quiet about their affection. “Reading James Deen’s blog until my parents walk in,” tweets one young woman. Another bemoans forgetting to download True Blood because she was too busy fantasizing about him.

A step further, to Deen’s personal blog, reveals an intensity of adoration normally reserved for swishy-haired pop stars. Among declarations of love and lust and women begging for personal visits—more than one requesting devirginization—a vocal group coalesces around this sentiment: “im a girl, and most dudes in porn do nothing for me. then i stumbled across a clip of you … its been lust at first sight ever since.” What magic pheromones does Deen emit that he’s earned the infatuation of his fans, the respect of his costars and the porn industry’s top awards? There’s something special about this guy, and it isn’t his penis.

♦◊♦

Sunday afternoon, while large chunks of the country cheered on the women of Team USA, I detached myself from my television to talk to a porn star who maintains a firm “no panties” rules on his website (and I call myself a feminist). I wanted to know where he came from, and how he thinks about his work. How, in an industry known for its seedy underbelly, did a decent guy like Deen come out on top?

He’s objectively good-looking, with curly brown hair, long sideburns, and very blue eyes. The word “impish” comes to mind. “I’m not hideous,” he says, while trying to explain his popularity, “I’m not old and ugly. For the percentage of women interested in porn, I’m a guy who they would talk to in a bar.”

He says “percentage of women” like it’s a teaspoon of water in the ocean of smut, and it occurs to me that he doesn’t know how popular he is. I tell him that the latest data from Nielsen shows that a third of porn site visitors are female. “What? That’s awesome! I had no idea it was so high!”

I ask him why he’s so pleased, and he says, “The world is becoming a more sexually liberated place, you know? People are more out there with their porn watching. It’s super cool.”

Deen is a behind-the-camera guy, too, directing, producing and editing for punk mega-site BurningAngel. “If you’re going to make porn, you should make something you’re really passionate about, it’ll be good, and people will watch it. Like me, I’m not really into feet … unless it really turns a girl on. But boobs? I love boobs, I could play with boobs for hours. If I make porn about boobs, it’ll be good, because you can tell how much I like them. Not so much with feet.”

From the other side of the camera, he pushes for pleasure, too. “Whenever I’m directing, I hire performers that love what they’re doing. I put them in a room together and tell them to do whatever you want, and they go at it.” He laughs and tells me a story about a friend who spends “too much” time on foreplay: “Twenty minutes later, I’m like, ‘Dude, this is hot, but would you fuck her already?’”

We talk about rough sex, a specialty of his. “A lot of the porn for women and couples is intentionally inoffensive and soft, but I don’t know any girls who have ever watched Playgirl. Sometimes girls just want to see a guy who will fuck the shit out of them. Rough sex is a science, and I’m really good at it.” Thanks to his experience in this arena, Deen is regularly requested for scenes at BDSM conglomerate Kink.com.

He speaks like a teenager, chortling at his own jokes, punctuating sentences with “whatever” and “fuck it.” But when talk turns to the industry, Deen peppers his conversation with lingo like a consummate professional. Degrees of degradation, levels of consent, variations of kink, this is the language of the biz, and he’s more than fluent. “It’s a job, you know? Like a bank job,” he explains. “You show up on time, don’t be drunk, don’t bring drugs, be polite, be professional.” It sounds too good to be true.

♦◊♦

I bring up the M-word, misogyny. Are sets actually as polite and above-board as he’s implying? “I just had this conversation! This dude was like, ‘You can’t get sexually harassed on a porn set,’ and I was like, ‘Dude! Are you kidding? Of course you can! A guy can’t just randomly come up to a girl and start waving his dick in her face—that’s sexual harassment!’”

What about those other sites, with names so offensive I wince as I say them out loud? He tells me a story about a scene so aggressive and violent that he received hate mail and death threats.

“I was like, ‘Hey man, that was my girlfriend.’” The point, he emphasizes, is that “it’s all totally fake.” All of it? “Take these two different sites that look the same,” he says, describing sites that play in the space of extreme degradation. One site is “brilliant. Everyone thinks it’s about degradation and making girls cry, really rough, fucked-up stuff; before every scene, they do an interview with the girl. They talk very specifically about what kind of scene it is. ‘It’ll be degrading, there will be this and that.’ The majority of girls are like, ‘OK, awesome, bring it on.’” But what about the other site? “Oh, well those guys are misogynistic assholes,” he says. “They just want to hurt women. They suck.” As a viewer, I probably couldn’t tell the difference.

The lines get blurry when porn gets as rough as Deen likes it. He tells me about a site he recently stopped working for because he didn’t like the premise. “Girls acted like they did something ‘bad,’ like step on my shoe,” he describes, “and then I’d have rough sex to punish them. It made me feel icky.” I want him to clarify, after all, he makes a living slapping women around onscreen. “At Kink, this girl and I are having awesome sex and she likes to get slapped in the face. The sex isn’t punishment. It’s BDSM lifestyle, and they make it super clear it’s the girl’s fantasy.”

It’s the distinction between power play that is built on a foundation of consent and pleasure, and sex that comes from a place of anger and resentment. His fans have noticed on which side of the line he falls. “He gets the difference between dominance and domineering. It’s so sexy!” says one, a 30-something mom from Missouri.

I read that Deen once bemoaned the lack of cunnilingus on camera, explaining that he loves giving oral sex, but directors didn’t want to waste film on it. Is this a problem, that kids grow up seeing blowjobs but not “box jobs,” as Dan Savage recently called female oral sex? The younger we are, the more porn influences what we think is “normal.” Does porn give kids the wrong idea? He pauses, carefully considering my question. “Yes,” he says, “Yes, you’re right. Young kids are learning that pussy-eating isn’t part of sex.” He laughs, emphatically declaring, “There should be more pussy-eating in porn!” Work on that, I tell him, and he says he will. Then he reminds me that viewers only watch what they like. “Their hands are on the fast-forward button the whole time.” He’s right. A quick and dirty search shows that pussy-eating isn’t as popular as one might hope.

♦◊♦

During this interview, at every point where I’ve asked him to choose a side, Deen defaults to “equal rights.” Are you a feminist, I ask?

“I hate feminism!” he blurts out, but rushes to rephrase. “In its truest form, I’m down with feminism, but the feminist movement has gone from being about equal rights—something I really believe in—to telling me how horrible I am because I have a penis. That shit drives me crazy.”

I tell him I’m a feminist and I don’t hate penises; he seems pleased. Our conversation is winding down. It is, after all, a Sunday afternoon, and porn star or not, Deen has laundry to do. I feel strange, like in the last two hours my best hopes and worst fears about pornography have been confirmed. There are good, smart people like James Deen and his friends, who are committed to making super-hot porn that is grounded in equality, pleasure, and consent. And yet, Deen has proven, perhaps inadvertently, that I won’t necessarily know it when I see it. None of us do, and that should make us all a little uncomfortable.

—Photos courtesy of James Deen.

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About Emily Heist Moss

Emily Heist Moss is a New Englander in love with Chicago, where she works at a tech start-up. She's a serious reader and a semi-pro TV buff. She writes about gender, media, and politics at her blog, Rosie Says. (Follow her: @rosiesaysblog, find Rosie Says on Facebook). 

Comments

  1. Belgium says:

    Great interview.

    “I hate feminism!”
    God damn but it’s painful every time someone expresses feminist ideas and then disavows feminism (it’s usually women unfortunately). I think this is an example of how the right/conservatives control the narrative so well, they take a fringe idea that the majority of people will find offensive and repeat it ad infinitum until the entire narrative around the ideology has been subsumed in it (see: taxes, Islam, etc.).

    Too many men and women have been hoodwinked by the right’s insistence that feminism is “political correctness gone mad” or is anti-male, we need to fix this image problem and own our own narrative.

    • While the image of feminism has been unfairly attacked a really good way to fix the image is to quit pretending that the only reason a person can have a negative reaction to feminism is because they are believing right-wing hype. A lot of us who don’t look upon that movement kindly have actual experience in trying to talk to feminists that didn’t end well.

      God damn but it’s painful every time someone expresses feminist ideas and then disavows feminism (it’s usually women unfortunately).
      Oh and it will also help of feminists would also quit trying to act like they have a monopoly on moral behavior and belief in equal rights for all. Those concepts predate feminism.

    • Charlene Araujo says:

      I totally agree. Most women just want respectful dialogue and we are not out to “dominate” or “emasculate” men. All the women who are “anti-porn” ARE NOT “anti-sex.” Gail Dines said it best, “Just because you criticize the nutritional content of a McDonalds meal does not mean you are anti-eating.” Whatever you want to do in the bedroom is fine! We have serious reservations about the sex industry which this adult actor confirms.

      • martrevion says:

        I asked a guy in a store once,” what do U see when you look at porn”? his response was Abuse. For the life of me, at that time I had no idea what he meant exactly. One day, I stumbled upon other porn(abnormal) with men on men, boys and men,etc. Then i understood. I couldn’t believe the number of men,boys who were getting screwed up the poop shoot like it was the pride of a woman receiving. I personally will Never believe that any male/female figure was born to have affections sexually toward the same sex. I was raped my an older man at 7years old. AnyKind of flick that portrays abuse of anykind angers the hell out of me. When I saw the movie,”A Time To Kill’ I was glad that as a child I never told my mother about the boy who had done that to me. Maybe because I would have never forgiven myself had something happened to her because of her retaliating because of my report, so I am grateful the Lord granted her rest. I believe the pain of her even Hearing such horrific news would have been too much to bear and til this day I have not told my dad either but Everybody else was therapeutic for me. I don’t know the porn star highlighted here so I didn’t comment on him.

    • The day the Feminist leadership lost me was when they held the mutilater Lorena Bobbitt as a feminist heroine. There was no voice of dissent. The misandrous symbolism spoke volumes.

  2. If so many people are disavowing feminism maybe it’s because some of the extreme personalities involved are alienating the hell out of people and making men feel uncomfortable and to blame for everything. It’s hilarious that some hardcore feminists are exactly like some MRAs in this regard, yet the two sides are always at each other’s throats.

    • Belgium says:

      Where are these extreme personalities? Seriously, because I’m a man and I read Jezebel and Feministing and Goodmenproject I don’t see them (other than in the comments sections, but no site should be judged by anonymous comments).

      • Belgium says:

        *and I don’t see them. #correction

        • @Belgium

          Here’s an example. I was in school having a talk with a self proclaimed feminist, I mentioned something about my girlfriend and she said “you mean your lady friend”, I said “excuse me?”, she said “girl means pre pubescent”. I said “Really, I always thought girlfriend was a term of endearment”
          Some feminists are just a tad over the top. ;)

      • Belgium: The extreme personalities I speak of are not always on the front pages of publications. I’m talking about people we run across in our daily lives. Maybe through work, maybe you meet them at parties. I just ran into a woman two weeks ago at a party who identified herself as a feminist after a porn discussion ensued. From there she told me “all men are potential rapists” and they need to prove they are good guys before they can be trusted at all. She also said she spells women as “womyn” because she doesn’t want men in the word.

        This is the kind of bullshit I’m talking about. While she may not represent what feminism is about, she’s representing herself as a feminist. And her extremist attitude is pretty offensive, in my opinion.

      • DaddyFiles is correct. I know a few in my own personal life. They’re difficult to be around, even for other feminists…well, feminists like myself. Believe me, she and I have gotten into some heated arguments.

        And…”all men are potential rapists” may be true but so are all women. In the end, we’re all capable of cruelty.

      • Google “Femonade” and “RadicalHub.”

    • Michael Rowe says:

      What Daddy said.

  3. This is bullshit good men project.

    If you are going to police the media for “good people”, where is the front page on the women applauding sexual torture and genital mutilation on mainstream television.

  4. Henry Vandenburgh says:

    The only woman I met who really liked rough sex liked to be on oxycontins for it. Just sayin’.

  5. During this interview, at every point where I’ve asked him to choose a side, Deen defaults to “equal rights.” Are you a feminist, I ask? “I hate feminism!” He rushes to rephrase, “In its truest form, I’m down with feminism, but the feminist movement has gone from being about equal rights—something I really believe in—to telling me how horrible I am because I have a penis. That shit drives me crazy.”
    And there it is. Someone says they are for equal rights its presumed that they’re a feminist, just to get stunned when they say they aren’t one. But at least Emily didn’t go the extra step and try to declare that he was one whether he claimed the title or not (those people piss me off to no end).

  6. Interview Danny Wylde next! Or Wolf Hudson!

  7. It seems the aim of the article is to buck the idea that good people can’t be in porn, or more specifically, that good men can’t be in porn. I agree that good people,both men and women, exist in the porn industry. Just as good people, both men and women, enjoy porn.

    But I am not convinced of James Deen “goodness”. Good Men Project challenges the way we preceive men and masculinity. But what about James Deen points to his “goodness”? The fact that he likes giving women oral but doesn’t do anything within his own director skills to make it more popular in films? The fact that he likes boobs? The fact that he gives Feminism at it’s purest form a thumbs up but has been part of some derogatory porn toward women willingly? The fact that he has a female following? These are the things that make a man “good”? I don’t see it. I’m not saying he is “bad” either, I just don’t see what he’s accomplished that makes him a good guy either or an example for masculinity.

    Based on this interview, here is what I’ve learned:
    ————————————–
    He’s popular with women because he’s young and attractive. Most guys in porn aren’t held to the same standard of looks or age that women are held to (but keep in mind that porn is all about sexual liberation for women :o), so women are happy to see a regular man they might actually want to be with instead of ugly guys or guys old enough to be their fathers that the image of porn usually creates to appeal to the masses of regular or aging guys that can’t be excited enough by women their peers.

    I am curious if these girls’ boyfriends and husbands know about their specific interest in him. Maybe they do because maybe they are on a female pornstar’s blog themselves and everybody is happy that way. But it still makes me wonder about a few more things that I won’t get further into. I am also curious what age group of girls are interested in him.
    —————————————

    James Deen: “The world is becoming a more sexually liberated place, you know? People are more out there with their porn watching. It’s super cool.”

    So apparently sexual liberation is tied to how much porn you consume or how open you are about your own sexual practices, clearly porn included. Call me crazy but that seems like a pretty narrow ideal about exactly what sexual liberation means. I sincerally don’t get this idea that porn makes us more sexually liberated. Especially from a man that admits that women relate to him in porn because most guys are ugly or old and that there isn’t that much of a desire for men to want to see oral performed on women as much as there is a desire for them to receive oral or that there are infact some pretty ugly things being done to women through porn for male pleasure. That is sexual liberation?? For who? For porn producers that make money?

    I mean, I’m not surprised by his attitude. He is in the business after all. He’s making money in the business and by reenforcing the idea that porn is sexually liberating, he’s appealing to his market to equate porn to more of their sexual selves so they don’t feel “wrong” for enjoying it. When it comes to porn people are eager to over exploit how “good” and “healthy” it is. I’m just not convinced we are really at a point where we are more sexually liberated. I do think we are on the other side of the coin then where we were 100 years ago where women were expected to be devoid of any sexual thought. But I think all this in -your-face-sexuality is another way to conform female sexuality to mold it to what men fantasize it to be. Porn has never been about celebrating female sexuality and if we tell ourselves it is, I think we are lying to ourselves.
    ————————————-

    James Dean article: He laughs and tells me a story about a friend who spends “too much” time on foreplay, “Twenty minutes later, I’m like,  ‘Dude, this is hot, but would you fuck her already?’”

    In one case he says the sex is so real that he actually has to direct the couple to get down to the fucking. But in another part of the article he talks about some of the more humiliating and degrading things that happen to women and talks about how “fake” it is. So all porn is real when it’s about female pleasure but it’s all fake and scripted when it’s about female sexual abuse?

    First, I can’t even begin to believe that. Especially because at the end of his comments on the subject he does manner to admit to misogyny in the industry. And second, why is it even okay for men to get excited to see women cry or “punished” or whatever that is purposely degrading to her even if it’s being “acted” out? That comment really frustrated me as a woman. The industry sells the idea that women love to be abused physically, verbally and mentally during sex. Even if this is what guys are fantasizing about, even if the girls in the movie are “acting”, why is it still okay to project the idea that humiliating women is great and that guys getting off to it is healthy?

    ————————————–

    James Dean article : “A lot of the porn for women and couples is intentionally inoffensive and soft, but I don’t know any girls who have ever watched Playgirl. Sometimes girls just want to see a guy who will fuck the shit out of them. Rough sex is a science, and I’m really good at it.” Thanks to his experience in this arena, Deen is regularly requested for scenes at BDSM conglomerate Kink.com.

    Rough sex is great! But I took some time to check out kink.com. Maybe I am naive but Kink.com seems a far cry from just rough sex. Are most people “hogtying” their partners and peeing on them and that is now what “rough sex” means? That’s a science? I’m really scratching my head over this one. I don’t think women always want sweet love making but I’m not sure peeing on them and describing their position as something related to how you would tie a pig is sexually liberating either. If you are into BDSM, that ‘s your right. But don’t act like the only thing between sweet sex and rough sex is a weird electric device that looks like something akin to a toy car remote control that you push inside a woman’s vagina and that’s suppose to be sexual liberation.
    ——————————————–
    And the thing that bothered me most about this interview where his comments regarding Feminism. The idea that he was against men being projected as horrible for the fact they have a penis is a message he doesn’t like. And he shouldn’t. I don’t either. But in turn, why is it okay to project images of women through porn that are equally degrading? I wish more guys would open their eyes. No man likes to be projected as a certain stereotypical way through a market that degrades them for being men. And yet, it’s okay to project women a certain stereotypical way through a market that degrades us as women. I just went over his blog to check it out. I guess sexual liberation is about pretty young women with their legs spread, breast implants, faces with semen on them, gagging blow jobs, pictures with men fully clothed and women undressed, women with ball gags in their mouths and words written on their bodies for a site called “public disgrace”..(WTF) Apparently this is sexual liberation. Yay us. Women have come such a long way ((sarcasm)). Looking at his blog was depressing.

    • Oh, God help me Erin! You’re determined to make men wrong, the porn industry wrong, and women who enjoy porn as well as the acts depicted in porn wrong. That’s fine. Keep your tight strictures on what is right and wrong about men, sex, and porn. You and the people you have sex with are the only ones who lose out. Everybody else gets to watch their porn, have dirty, nasty sex, and enjoy their lives. I know I will!
      One day either you will confront your fears head on and stop trying to control everybody’s sexuality so that you feel safe or you won’t. I’m kinky as heck and I love every minute of it.

    • And yet, it’s okay to project women a certain stereotypical way through a market that degrades us as women.
      Prove that no woman likes those stereotypical ways and/or prove that all women find them degrading. The only people that find that stuff degrading are the ones that would not want to have that stuff done to them. And fine. Your body your choice.

      But for the love of all that his holy would you please stop projecting your displeasure with the way women are treated in porn as “the official way women are treated in porn” or “the official way women as a monolith feel about porn”?

    • Hi Erin,

      Just wanted to thank you for your very articulate, cogent response. I may disagree with you on a few points, but I think your arguments are really interesting. I especially thought your point about fakery (i.e. if the nasty stuff is fake, how can we think the pleasurable stuff is real?) was really on target. I wish I’d thought to ask that!

      In any case, thanks for reading and engaging,

      Emily

      • Erin, I have to say, I interpreted his comments about fakery differently than you. I interpreted it as being that the rough, nasty stuff isn’t necessarily fake but it is pre-negotiated with the women involved. I could be mistaken about this but that kind of thing is pretty common in the BDSM and even swinger’s world. It doesn’t necessarily make it fake but it does make it somewhat orchestrated. Usually, when I have taken part in those kinds of activities, all the involved parties sit down first and talk about boundaries. Everyone says what they are comfortable with, what they enjoy. As far as I can tell, James is sought after in the porn world because he’s a good top, meaning he listens to his bottom, he prefers to do things that bring them pleasure, and he’s good at respecting boundaries.
        That doesn’t mean that the actions are fake or that the reactions of the women are fake. It does mean that what may appear to be solely violent and degrading from a viewer’s perspective actually is not.

        • Jeni – I have never criticized you personally for your porn use or your right to enjoy porn. If you want to think my sex life is crap for whatever reason, go ahead. I’m not here to prove anything about my sex life. You don’t need to prove to me about how kinky you are and how much you love it either. I don’t consider porn to be so aligned with my own sexuality that it was really going to make me *that* much better a lover if I watched it. And I really haven’t ever experienced a time when porn made men better lovers either. Now if you want to disagree with my points in an intellectual discussion? Fabulous! My comments on the porn industry are completely separate from you or anyone else’s personal sexual practices and I think if we focus on that instead of what we all personally practice, we’d be having a better discussion.

          Below you commented about the “fakery” of the more humiliating aspects directed toward women in porn. I have no doubt that things are sometimes pre-negotiated with the women invovled. I also know that the woman can make more money by doing those more humiliating performances because the cost is higher for her body and state of mind. But I think it’s a very very slippery slope when you repeatidly portray either gender a certain way, and these performances show the gender enjoying their own debasement, while someone is reinforcing that belief with a chemical releasing high such as masturbation. I think we all logically know that porn is “fake”, but that doesn’t stop people from enjoying it just the same. And it’s not going to make me stop questioning how men think women are suppose to feel when they enjoy watching us sexually and verbally abused. Because lets be honest, calling a woman a slut or worse is a form of verbal abuse. Performing an act on a woman that otherwise isn’t naturally something that would feel good for a woman and is designed to cause her a level of humilation or pain is sexual abuse. I want to get down to why it seems so many regular men , men in our everday lives, enjoy it. And I don’t think anyone would think I was being silly for as a woman, feeling kind of sad about it.

          I don’t think terms are as black and white as James Deen presents them. I’m sure some women like the treatment, but we all also have a core understanding that a lot of women in porn come from sexually abused backgrounds to begin with. So it’s possible that these girls that go for that super hardcore porn are reliving the way they think they deserve to be treated. There are deeply psychological reasons why we sometimes like the sexual things we like when they turn into mental stimulation things like different ways to sexually abuse someone that isn’t stereotypically suppose to be a sexual act (such as stepping on a girls head or watching a man brutally shove his penis so far down in a girls through she clearly isn’t feeling as good as he is.) A girl might know she is going to be doing degrading things that day and she might giggle and coo about much she loves being sexually humiliated in front of the video because that’s the fantasy after all right? ..and then when they get into it she’s getting her head stepped on and choked faster then she can blink. I just think it’s false to present the image that all the good, feel good stuff is “real” and the humiliating stuff is totally fake and natural. Regardless of that, a media selling the idea that women love being sexually abused through sex is kind of cavemanish isn’t it? I don’t see the link between “sexual liberation”.

          Danny – I’ve said countless times that some women like the very sexual practices that could be deemed degrading. Does that mean we stop having conversations about the impact on men and women, girls and boys because *some* women sexually enjoy being degraded? Come on. You even admitted you like degrading porn of women. So by admitting to that, then you admit that porn is degrading toward women. And you might not agree but I do think the official way women are treated in porn is varying levels of degradations and objectification. And you know what, I think most men see it that way too. I don’t think most guys are sitting around saying porn is a positive display of female sexuality and it’s “celebratory” of who we are as sexual people in the feminine. But I also think alot of men will purposely block that out so they can keep enjoying it while. What really gets me is that these type of guys want to be seen as good guys that love women but they also want to be able to treat women basically like little animals or just tools for their own sexual purposes. And I am not going to act like I think that’s great for me as a woman or women in general.

          Emily – thanks for the kind words! And I would be interested in what you disagree with me on and hear your own thoughts if you want to take the time to share them.

          • Something else I meant to add . Jeni said:

            “Everyone says what they are comfortable with, what they enjoy.”

            Sounds like you are buying into the fantasy Jeni. They are there to make a movie. They aren’t there representing their own sexual selfs. Although I do believe porn wants to present that image so the men can tell themselves that *this* is the way those women like to be treated. It would be like me thinking Jennifer Aniston was just like her character Racheal in Friends.

            “That doesn’t mean that the actions are fake or that the reactions of the women are fake. It does mean that what may appear to be solely violent and degrading from a viewer’s perspective actually is not.”

            The type of porn we are talking about is meant to be violent and degrading. The consent of the people in the movie don’t change that. If the viewer’s perspective is that it is violent and degrading, then guess what..it is. It goes back to the whole “Fantasy” thing. Why are men even fatasizing about doing such violent things to women anyway. There is no part of the word “degradation” that says that you can only be degraded through non-consent.

            • If the viewer’s perspective is that it is violent and degrading, then guess what..it is.
              So does that mean that a the voice of a viewer who thinks its degrading should carry more wieght than that of a viewer who does not think its degrading?

              It goes back to the whole “Fantasy” thing. Why are men even fatasizing about doing such violent things to women anyway.
              A desire for control and dominance.

              There is no part of the word “degradation” that says that you can only be degraded through non-consent.
              But the consent comes into play when its a question of do they want to do it or not. There’s a difference between tying a person up and teasing and spanking them because that’s how they get down (and person doing the tying and spanking is into it as well) and tying a person up and teasing and spanking them when the person doing the teasing/spanking knows full well they person doesn’t want to do that and the person doing the teasing/spanking is actually getting off on the fact that they are violating that person. The difference between a practicioner of BDSM and a sexual criminal that needs to be punished.

              Just as there are men that fantasize about tying a woman up and spanking and teasing her there are men that fantasize about getting tied up by a woman and getting teased and spanked. Yet people don’t go around thinking that they hate themselves or anything like that. Nor do people go around thinking that the women that indulge in that sort of behavior with those men don’t have any respect for men (nor is there a lot of questioning about why women fantasize about that stuff).

            • Danny said: “So does that mean that a the voice of a viewer who thinks its degrading should carry more wieght than that of a viewer who does not think its degrading”

              I think most things in life are based on a sliding scale. Most of us as the general public do fall in the middle ground of that sliding scale and can probably collectively agree on what are right and wrong ways to treat each other. I’ve heard many men say things like “it’s fantasy”, “I wouldn’t treat my own woman like the women in porn are treated but I still like it and masturabe to it”…and variations of that. So if a man wouldn’t treat his own woman like the women in porn are treated, that man is making a very clear statement about what he thinks is appropiate ways to treat a woman. So why would he get off on stuff that isn’t even that nice to women to begin with? And in all honesty, how should women feel about that? How would men like women to feel about that? Do men want us to be pleased by that? Do men want us to think they are good men even if the enjoy degrading material of us? Do men want us to ignore what they are doing through porn? Good questions right? Care to take a stab at all of them? I’ve asked these questions over and over again and I have yet to see anyone directly answer them.

              And I am going to add this in not to take a shot at you but to point out something you said to me before where you said you liked porn that some would probably consider degrading. Even you acknowledge the aspect of degradation in porn.

              “A desire for control and dominance.”

              Yes, that is an aspect of it. But often with porn, it’s not even about real dominance or having real control. It’s often cruel and not even pleasurable for the female. There is a difference in wanting control, and outright over the top abuse that is purposely uncomfortable for the other person. And I’m not convinced that just because men want control or dominance that that means women just have to shut up and take it either. Should a man’s desire for control and dominance override other things?

              Danny said: “But the consent comes into play when its a question of do they want to do it or not. There’s a difference between tying a person up and teasing and spanking them because that’s how they get down (and person doing the tying and spanking is into it as well) and tying a person up and teasing and spanking them when the person doing the teasing/spanking knows full well they person doesn’t want to do that and the person doing the teasing/spanking is actually getting off on the fact that they are violating that person. The difference between a practicioner of BDSM and a sexual criminal that needs to be punished.”

              First, it seems to me that you are talking about the difference between rape and sex. Not consent and degradation. Again, someone can fully agree to what they are doing and still be degraded or protrayed as being degraded. You are also using a personal experience as an example compared to porn. When you are having a personal experience with someone in real life between you and that person, you can do whatever you want to each other. If you want to tie your partner up and they agree, go for it. That doesn’t mean that that person isn’t getting off to the degradation..that both people aren’t getting off on it! It’s still there. But when you are talking about a medium that presents an image of both men and women and how they relate to each other sexually to the public, when it’s about projecting a “fantasy” and the people in the movie are infact acting because they are infact actors, how could you even apply your own rules to your idea of what makes something degrading or not. It’s a movie. It’s fake. It’s fantasy. They are acting yes? How do those facts mean their agreement to the degradation makes it non-degrading?

              Finally, yes yes I KNOW there are men that fantasize about being more submissive. But it’s a “nitch”. It’s not the normal or the majority and that’s really what my comments have focused on. Why the majority of porn seems rather mean spirited toward women. If 1/3 of women are watching porn, even less are watching men be submissive. Most mothers, daughters or wives aren’t sitting around looking at material that is verbally and sexually absusive toward men. Is it too much for women to ask that men not do the same? I am sure there are tons of men, good men..fathers, brothers, uncles and grandfathers watching a lot of material of women that really doesn’t sexually liberate women at all but limits them and protrays them as loving sexually abusive sex.

          • . Does that mean we stop having conversations about the impact on men and women, girls and boys because *some* women sexually enjoy being degraded?
            No it just means to stop framing it as “the way” people feel about porn then starting from there to presume that something is wrong with people who indulge in that stuff. Yes some people do carry it to that point but that is hardly the default.

            You even admitted you like degrading porn of women. So by admitting to that, then you admit that porn is degrading toward women.
            But do you know what the difference is? While I may indulge in that type of stuff and would like to do those things withwomen, not to women, that doesn’t translate into I don’t respect women. I’ve also commented that I like the idea of women doing some of things with me (bet I’m not the only guy that thinks that way), but no talk about how the women who would engage in that behavior hate men.

            What really gets me is that these type of guys want to be seen as good guys that love women but they also want to be able to treat women basically like little animals or just tools for their own sexual purposes. And I am not going to act like I think that’s great for me as a woman or women in general.
            You can think it all you wish and choose not to engage in that behavior. But don’t try to pathologize men that do as some sort of deviants that secretly hate women and women who do as colluders.

            I’m not trying to shut you down but you seem insistent on telling me what type of regard I hold women in because of this one part of me.

            What really gets me is that these type of guys want to be seen as good guys that love women but they also want to be able to treat women basically like little animals or just tools for their own sexual purposes.
            And that’s what I mean. Guys that don’t hold the same disdain of porn and actually indulge in it suddenly don’t respect women. And you also seem to think that that type of behavior is only for the pleasure of men. Yes there are guys that do that and when they leave their partners out in the cold yes that’s terrible. But for you to just decide that the pleasure is a one way is the exact type of presumpousness (if that wasn’t a word already I ordain it so now) that bothers me. So again I ask you to show that no woman likes to engage in that behavior and/or no women gets pleasure from it. When done proper it will be about mutual pleasure. But think just because you see a guy giving a woman a facial that there is no way that women is not liking it.

            • Danny: “No it just means to stop framing it as “the way” people feel about porn then starting from there to presume that something is wrong with people who indulge in that stuff.”

              I’m sorry but as a woman I can’t sit around and say “hey if a guy want to slap women around and choke them and make them hurt, that’s A okay. They are still good guys and they just love women and love to abuse them too and that shoudn’t have any baring on a woman’s opinion on how they should be treated. All is well”. You have the right to like the porn you like and use it and i would never want that taken away from you. But I have the right to be concerned about what that says for me as a woman and other women. I don’t sit around watching and masturbting to abusive material of men and then turn around and say how much I really respect them. That’s the disconnect that troubles me. I wouldn’t expect a man to think I had much respect for men in general if I liked to watch them called names, used for all the money they had and then kicked out the door for the next new guy that could be sucked dry his money ..then the next guy and the next.

              Danny: “While I may indulge in that type of stuff and would like to do those things withwomen, not to women, that doesn’t translate into I don’t respect women.”

              I am sure you like women very much Danny. And I am sure you are capable of expressing a wide range of emotions, love and kindness included, when it comes to women. As for respect? I don’t know. And I don’t say that as a personal slight against you but I don’t see how a man can both respect women and like to see them treated a certain purposely disrespectful way. As for your distinction between doing things “with woman” vs “not to women” , I also feel a little iffy about this comment as well. On one hand, I do think men want women to enjoy what is happening *to* them. But I don’t think men want to really listen to what women enjoy. Lets take the concept of oral. Alot of porn today seems about shoving a man’s penis so far down a woman’s throat that she is made to be very uncomfortable on it. Are you really telling me that this is an act men want to do “with” women, not to? Are you really telling me that men think that this is pleasureable for women and act to be shared, an act to be “with” a woman? Unless they moved my clit to the back of my throat, I’m not sure I see what’s suppose to be pleasurable for me in that and I certainly don’t see the connection to that and wanting to be “with” me vs. wanting to do something “to” me.

              Danny: You can think it all you wish and choose not to engage in that behavior. But don’t try to pathologize men that do as some sort of deviants that secretly hate women and women who do as colluders.

              I’ve said it a MILLION times! Men that like porn aren’t “bad”. But I am not convinced our countries sexual practices are healthy either. You do realize how badly and atrcioulsy porn pathologizes women don’t you? Women are treated like little animals in porn. They aren’t treated like human beings with their own set of feelings and needs. But that apparently is okay. I just better not question what that means for women or how women should feel about that because that means that I am being mean toward men? That is bull Danny.

              Danny: I’m not trying to shut you down but you seem insistent on telling me what type of regard I hold women in because of this one part of me.

              I have never once told you one way or another what type of man you are or how you feel about women. I’m not going to ignore the gross messages porn sends about women because of some twisted ass backwards idea that speaking up about it means I’m condmening men. Despite the fact that porn is alot about condemning women. Especially regular everyday women that aren’t “pornstars’.

            • Charlene Araujo says:

              I agree with you, Erin.

            • Thanks Charlene!

            • Hold up. At one point you say this:
              I am sure you like women very much Danny. And I am sure you are capable of expressing a wide range of emotions, love and kindness included, when it comes to women. As for respect? I don’t know.
              Then later say this:
              I have never once told you one way or another what type of man you are or how you feel about women.

              How can you say you aren’t telling us what kind of men we are after trying to question whether or not we have respect for women or not?

              And I don’t say that as a personal slight against you but I don’t see how a man can both respect women and like to see them treated a certain purposely disrespectful way.
              The difference is consent.

              But I don’t think men want to really listen to what women enjoy.
              Truthfully there are those out there that don’t want to listen to what women enjoy. And they are jerks to say the least. However you can’t expect to be able to draw the line between the ones that do want to listen and those that don’t based on their taste in porn.

              Lets take the concept of oral. Alot of porn today seems about shoving a man’s penis so far down a woman’s throat that she is made to be very uncomfortable on it. Are you really telling me that this is an act men want to do “with” women, not to? Are you really telling me that men think that this is pleasureable for women and act to be shared, an act to be “with” a woman?
              Are you really telling me that it can’t be pleasurable for a woman to do those things?

              Unless they moved my clit to the back of my throat, I’m not sure I see what’s suppose to be pleasurable for me in that and I certainly don’t see the connection to that and wanting to be “with” me vs. wanting to do something “to” me.
              Because its not always about the clit? If you don’t like it that’s cool. And the connection would be if you were into that stuff and you found a guy to do that stuff with you (as in you’re both into it and are both enjoying it) vs you not wanting to do that stuff and coming across a guy that wants to do it do you specifically because you don’t want to (as in that guy geniuinely gets off on violating your body).

              I’m not going to ignore the gross messages porn sends about women because of some twisted ass backwards idea that speaking up about it means I’m condmening men. Despite the fact that porn is alot about condemning women. Especially regular everyday women that aren’t “pornstars’.
              That “twisted ass backwards idea” is that you keep questioning whether men who are into that kind of stuff have any respect for women despite being constantly told that being into that type of stuff is not a 100% tell all indicator of that.

              By all means point out how porn can be harmful to women (and there’s actually plenty of stuff out there that I would agree is harmful to women).

            • Danny, I stand by my two comments you quoted in the beginning. I am sure you are capable of expressing a wide range of emotions, love and kindness included, when it comes to women. I’m not trying to tell you personally what kind of man you are. But I can’t help but question the respect men have for women if if they can enjoy a medium that is pretty limiting toward women. Even often debasing toward women. I never once said “you are this type of person”. All I said is that I’m sure you are able to express yourself toward women in many positive ways. But I’m not going to stop questioning what it means for women in this day and age when we have so much porn out there, that comes directly into the home on a level unmatched by any other time in history, and the sheer volume and diversity of porn has normalized things that I just don’t think are healthy. For men or for women. The average age a male starts looking at porn is 11. Now every man here knows when he started looking at porn and what type he looks at. Are you really going to claim that porn doesn’t have some part of influence in male sexuality?

              Danny said: “How can you say you aren’t telling us what kind of men we are after trying to question whether or not we have respect for women or not?”

              How can you not expect women to question the level of respect men have for them if men enjoy and support a medium that gets off to varying levels of objectification and degradation of women? How can you not expect women to question the respect a man might have for her if he likes likes seeing busty young 19 year old girls in school girl outfits being called four letter names?

              I’ve asked you my own set of questions that you’ve ignored each time Danny. But I play fair so I will answer your question as mine go unanswered while I hope you start taking my questions seriously and start answering them too.

              In response to your question, I said it a million times Danny, good men watch porn. Good men, with beautiful families, beautiful wives, beautiful daughters and sons. Lawyers, doctors, janitors..I recognize that good men look at porn. But I’m not going to say that I think it’s good that men look at porn. And I am not going to lie and say that I don’t infact think porn does change how men view women and sexuality. Is it an all emcompassing change where men can only seem women in black and white terms? Of course not. But that’s what makes it twize as scarey. Because those opinions and thoughts of women and our place in porn and our place in sex and our place in relationships all meld together. It seems to me that you want to separate your ability to respect women but enjoy degrading material of them at the same time. How can you even do that?

              Danny said: “The difference is consent.”

              Our conversation was never about rape. I think you’re intelligent enough to understand that someone can a both consent to do something and still be degraded in the process. Please look up the definition of “degradation”. I’ve already posted it before and no where in the definition does it say that degradation is only achieved through nonconsent. Consent does not negate degradation. Unless you want to argue that the poor ways the modern man can be portrayed in sitcoms today is negated by the fact that the male actors consent to play the role.

              Danny: “However you can’t expect to be able to draw the line between the ones that do want to listen and those that don’t based on their taste in porn.”

              Let me ask you something Danny, which women would you rather be with? A woman that shuns negative and derogatory media toward men, notices unfair ways men are treated and stands up for the right way to treat men, takes pride in positive ways men are projected? Or a woman that gets off to negative and derogatory material toward men, likes to see men treated a certain way in the privacy of her home even if she can’t see them treated that way in real life, masturbate to their objectification and stereotypes? Then turns to her man and claims she really loves and respects men. Which women would you want to be with? Would you honestly believe that the second woman really respected men or only respected women as far as she had to?

              Danny: “Are you really telling me that it can’t be pleasurable for a woman to do those things?

              So instead of answering my questions you’ve decided to just shoot back your own question huh. How about answering my question and then I will be more then happy to answer yours.

              I think giving oral can be very pleasurable for a woman! I think forcing a man’s penis so far into a woman’s throat that she is clearly feeling no pleasure from it isn’t about mutual shared pleasure or experience. It’s about the man getting “his”, showing his “dominance” and facilitiating the image that women just love to be hurt in varying degrees for male pleasure.

              Danny: “Because its not always about the clit?”

              Then explain to me what it is about. Shouldn’t sex feel good for both parties? Of course there are many other pleasure centers on the body then the clit. Please tell me what pleasure centers are being excited when a man likes to push his penis far in a woman’s throat that she can’t help but choke on it. Tell me what that is about? Since it’s not all about the clit.

              Danny: “If you don’t like it that’s cool.”

              I agree, if I am not into something, I don’t have to do it. It doesn’t take away from the fact that porn says some strong things about female sexuality and a lot of it isn’t even true. Despite how much the men that watch porn want it to be true. You should do a google search on an organization called Pink Cross. It’s a nonprofit that tries to help former porn stars get on their feet and out of the business. It talks about about the “fantasy” that porn presents and the reality.

              Danny: …”as in that guy geniuinely gets off on violating your body.”

              No offense but most porn seems to be about guys getting off to violating women’s bodies wouldn’t you say? They just like sticking themselves anywhere they can as hard as they can sometimes dangerously changing between body parts that could easily spread all kinds of disease. Sometimes it doesn’t even look like the girl is enjoying it even if she is making loud sounds, sometimes she looks like she is in pain and the guy just keeps banging it out.
              Can we stop acting like porn is about female pleasure or how men want to be closer sexually to women? I know porn tells you that women love everything that’s happening to them but I think we all know that the women and men in the movies are “actors” right?

              Danny: “That “twisted ass backwards idea” is that you keep questioning whether men who are into that kind of stuff have any respect for women despite being constantly told that being into that type of stuff is not a 100% tell all indicator of that.”

              Seriously Danny, if I liked seeing men treated a certain way that most of us would term as not exactly positive, if I liked seeing men used for their money, even if these men were being portrayed as loving it, if i liked seeing men called names and had things shoved in them for my female pleasure first, would you really think I respected men?

              That’s what bothers me. Women are told that “so what if a guy likes to see a woman treated this way, he still likes women”. And as a woman your suppose to just accept that confusing message. But if I was supporting a medium that debased men, even if the men in that medium where acting like it was great, I don’t think any man here would think I respected men very much. And If i supported an industry that debased men, I wouldn’t be doing myself any favors in learning how to relate to men in a healthy way would i?

              It use to be that porn was “just fantasy” and that men only watched it “once-in-awhile”. It’s not like that anymore. It’s still “fantasy” but it’s fantasy that men encourage you to be more like. And men are watching porn more then ever! Can we agree to that? I’ve had alot of men ask me to do things they seen in porn, not because they cared about being closer to me but because they wanted to do the things to me that the guys in porn could do to the porn stars and they thought I would love it just as much as the girls in the movie ACT like they love it. That’s not about authentic sexuality. It’s not about mutual pleasure for women even. It’s about men wanting women to conform their sexuality the the fantasy they’ve been watching since they were roughly 11 and enjoy their debasement as much as men are enjoying it. And you have the nerve to act offended that I question how men perceive women when a lot of men LIKE material about women that is just heartbreakingly degrading.

            • I’ve asked you my own set of questions that you’ve ignored each time Danny. But I play fair so I will answer your question as mine go unanswered while I hope you start taking my questions seriously and start answering them too.
              I’m answering them you’re just not liking my answers which would be fine but please don’t try to tell me I’m dodging you.

              Our conversation was never about rape. I think you’re intelligent enough to understand that someone can a both consent to do something and still be degraded in the process. Please look up the definition of “degradation”.
              I have and I know what is. And I also know that consent covers more than the realm of rape. If a person consents to having something done to them that you would call degrading there’s still a matter of the fact that person consented to it. I may enjoy a woman spitting in my face and calling me names while having sex. You’re more than welcome to call it degrading. But in the end the difference is I consenting to that activity. So no I didn’t say that consent negates it.

              Let me ask you something Danny, which women would you rather be with? A woman that shuns negative and derogatory media toward men, notices unfair ways men are treated and stands up for the right way to treat men, takes pride in positive ways men are projected? Or a woman that gets off to negative and derogatory material toward men, likes to see men treated a certain way in the privacy of her home even if she can’t see them treated that way in real life, masturbate to their objectification and stereotypes?
              In the strict sense of what you ask here yes I go for the first and I’ll tell you why. You say that second woman “likes to see men treated a certain way in the privacy of her home even if she can’t see them treated that way in real life”. That implies that that woman actually wants to see men outside the bedroom (rather than “real life”) treated that way and probably that she sincerely believes all men deserve to be treated that way. There are certainly those that do (and vice versa of genders) but that’s not me. Now from the sounds of it my sexual tastes are very incompatible with yours and that’s fine. But again that doesn’t equate to saying that I harbor some sort of disrespectful ill will towards women on the whole.

              I think giving oral can be very pleasurable for a woman! I think forcing a man’s penis so far into a woman’s throat that she is clearly feeling no pleasure from it isn’t about mutual shared pleasure or experience. It’s about the man getting “his”, showing his “dominance” and facilitiating the image that women just love to be hurt in varying degrees for male pleasure.
              This is something I can agree with you on. While I may be up for certain things that other people don’t like I do agree that stuff like that does perpetuate the notion that hurting a woman (not to be confused with rough activites that are consesual on all sides) equals male sexual pleasure. But its not like I’ve tried to say that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with some porn and some of its audiences.

              Then explain to me what it is about. Shouldn’t sex feel good for both parties?
              Yes it should but I’m willing to bet that lots of women enjoy more than just clitoral stimulation. In fact I’ve heard from some women that going straight for the clit isn’t what they like.

              I’ve had alot of men ask me to do things they seen in porn, not because they cared about being closer to me but because they wanted to do the things to me that the guys in porn could do to the porn stars and they thought I would love it just as much as the girls in the movie ACT like they love it.
              And see that’s the difference between some porn watchers and others. Its one thing to try to introduce something in the bedroom wondering if you will like it. Its quite another to want to just presume that you’d want to just because they saw it on tv. Yeah there are things that guys see in porn that they’d like to try but some recognize that what they see in porn is not the default setting for female sexuality (some may like it, some may try it and like it, some may try it and not like it, some may say “not no but hell no”) while others don’t.

              Is porn perfect? By no means. Should it change? Yes it should. But yes I will continue to have the nerve to act offended. But not because you question it, that’s a good thing (and many of the things you raise are valid and worth looking into), but because you seem to want to tell someone what they think of women rather than questioning what they think of women.

            • For what’s it worth – you’re one of the few voices of reason concerning porn and women. It’s astounding how if a woman questions any of these things about porn, she’s automatically branded as man-hating, while guys that watch porn that’s demeaning to women (i.e. the vast majority of porn!) could never be called woman-hating.

            • Sorry just wanted to clarify that I think Erin is one of the few voices of reason concering women in porn.

          • Erin writes:

            “I’m sure some women like the treatment, but we all also have a core understanding that a lot of women in porn come from sexually abused backgrounds to begin with. So it’s possible that these girls that go for that super hardcore porn are reliving the way they think they deserve to be treated.”

            There’s nothing like a little stereotype-based dimestore psychoanalysis to really add to the discussion.

            • If you disagree, please share why. If you have evidence that supports differently, please share. But to attack *me* as the commenter and not the comment is pointless IamCuriousblue. And it does nothing to add to the conversation.

              But I invite you to intellectually support your own comment. Thanks.

            • Not sure how I can share anything considering the way this board works, if you get downrated enough, you’re effectively censored. I’m not even sure if this comment will make it through moderation.

            • Since it appears my comments are getting through, I’ll just say this. Your comment is based on 1) a very negative stereotype, and I think the burden is *on you* to provide evidence. And, yes, this is dimestore psychoanalysis. Are you a therapist, Erin? What are your qualifications for inferring that female porn performers are victims of some kind of mental illness?

    • Guys cannot get into pro-porn with an average sized d!ck….is that fair? You see a ton of smaller sized boobed women in porno but you RARELY see an average sized male..

      Would you watch porn if most of the guys had average sized peen?

      Yeah,thats what i thought…most of you would NOT.So whose the hyporites here ?

      Women

      • Josh, the majority of porn is made to appeal to men first. In my completely unprofessional opinion, the perchant for guys with huge shlongs in porn is more about what men *think* women want and is some kind of twisted ass-backwards way to deal with a very real and honest male insecurity. There are of course women that care about penis size. As there are men that care about breast size. (FYI, while I acknowledge that there are smaller breast sized women in porn there still seems to be a common majority of large breasted women). Most porn isn’t made because of what women like. It’s made to appeal to men first. And within my own social circle of friends, I’ve never heard a woman complain or go on about a man’s penis size.

        • I find very little appealing about mainstream pornography.Im not big on hardcore sex i need realism-REAL WOMEN not silicone cartoon Beverly Hills models or overtan,copious amounts of makeup etc. think solo amateur women.Alot of guys i know are not big on hardcore porn.The reason some women think that we are is because the guys who do like it are so vocal that they drown out the guys like us who aren’t into it.

          Men don’t think you want that-you do.Ive been a fly on the wall on moderated internet sex forums where the women (not men pretending to be women)were there beat the living hell out of guys on the size issue and the company line is usually “anything under six sucks”,”size matters”,”preference etc.ive heard attacks on guys who have ED-“no one wants to play pool with a rope”,”my ex bf couldn’t get it up”,”he was too small”,”cocktail weiner”,”baby dick” ,whiskey dick”etc,etc.Ive overheard jokes,talk,and assorted bunk from female friends as well so obviously it DOES matter to most of you (or you spew the company line about motion of the f!!king ocean zzzzzzz….Go look at some online sex toy reivews and listen to women go on and on about i don’t need me no man ie got this dildo here lol…As far as the feminist porn goes ive seen a little and alot of them still tend to use major porn actors/actresses or well endowed males and very attractive women (some enhanced)-so i don’t really know how its any different then the mainstream crapola.They engage in taboos/novelty just like the major companies as well etc.And there you go making the asinine comparison of breasts and penis like they are the equivilent (zzzzzzz….cmon were talking about a sex organ here)So gimme a break the entire internet is a f##king penis size forum-this leads me to believe that yes women are hypocrites,you complain about being objectified,fetishized, and double standards yet engage in a slew of your own misandry and the like so…….now answer the questions i posed to you okay?

          • Josh, you asked me to answer the questions you posed to me. But I don’t see one question you asked me. And I certainly don’t see one question of mine you’ve sincerely and authentically answered.

            You’re mind is already made up. You made accusations of my “misandry” (why? Because I question an industry that often debases women?) and you assumed that my comments about how women are treated in the industry means I think men are treated like gold. Which I don’t. But I don’t sit around supporting industry that defiles men either.

            You can either talk about the topic or you can’t. This specific article wasn’t about penis size. There are other articles on this very website that address that very issue. But I don’t think you want to go to those articles to discuss it because then you couldn’t have so much fun distancing the conversation from considering the real topic that is posed here. Because that means having to think outside yourself. And I think you are wrestling with too many of your own demons to do that right now.

            This article stated that 1/3 of women watch porn. With that in mind, if only 1/3 of women watch porn, then how can you even begin to think the penchant for porn to show men with large penises is about pleasing women viewers? I mean, you have to acknowledge that most porn is made for men first no? I think that’s a pretty basic understanding of the industry.

            Further, I would also think twice before taking too much stock in costumer review comments for sex toy websites. Wouldn’t that be like women taking stock in costumer review comments for blow up doll websites? Would you really want women to look at reviews about blow up dolls and make specific ideas about men? Let me also leave you with this. It’s not unheard of for marketers to leave blogging comments to permote their products. There was this story not too long ago about hotels and resorts using bloggers to write “good” reviews for their places to encourage people to visit their hotel or resort. Makes sense right? I suspect * A lot* of that goes on on the internet when trying to get people interested in whatever product. Even when I visited James Deen website and read some of the responses, I questioned how authentic they really where because many of them seemed to be the same kind of speech pattern. Something seemed off to me, the comments seemed too similar. Now I could be wrong…but it’s not a crazy thought either.

            I am not familiar with “feminist” porn so I can’t really comment on that. But I think it’s completely grossly wrong to call women “hypocrites” because porn of all things portrays men with big shlongs. Meanwhile completely ignoring and purposely downplaying all the commentary that society in general, and porn, makes on a woman’s body. You seem to forget that commentary about woman’s body isn’t just limited to the expectations on our breast size. It’s also about the popularity of perfectly shaved vaginas with no labias. To the extent that porn actresses get surgery on their vaginas to make them look a certain way. The whitening products used for women’s vaginas and butts that do porn. The idea of little flat perfect tummies, big boobs, and round asses with not a stick of fat anywhere else. I think we can both agree that women are getting more surgery to fit into an idea then men are. I’m sorry but to say that “oh who cares that women are expected to have big breasts when men in porn have big shlongs”…and show absolutely no care or attempt to draw on the things we both have to deal with within the expectations of our retrospective genders is rather self centered and cold.

            But you are right on one thing. Breasts and penis sizes aren’t completely comparable. Because there is 10 times the focus on women’s breasts in the general public and in porn then there is penis size. And more women are undergoing hurtful and life threatening surgery to modify their body while most men aren’t running around doing the same to get their penis enlarged.

            You want to disagree with me? Great. You want to feel more worried about how male sex organs are represented then female? Fine. But don’t act like you are breaking some “double standard” and bucking a trend. And don’t dare think you can get away with calling me a “misandrist” with nothing, ABSOLUTELY nothing, to base your claims on.

            I am fine with you disagreeing with me. But you aren’t disagreeing with me. You are attacking me. And that says something about who you are. Not me. I’m a pro at dealing with people like you Josh. I’ve heard it all before. I’ve talked about this topic a lot and I’ve been called all kind of things. And when people resort to name calling it’s because they don’t have anything else intelligent to say.

            • Your response tells me what a clueless headcase YOU really are Erin..YOU want to play the female victim card and wear a freaking halo with your gender.Yes i got off-topic sue me.Oh Poor women Erin,you have it soooooo bad in today’s society-cry me a river.Males kill themselves at a ridiculous rate in America..decades of male bashing from feminists from hell like yourself and others.Men DO have ridiculous standards to live up to these days so it doesn’t surprise me.You’re on the wrong side of history.Your fem-kind also championed spitting in our soldiers faces when they came back Vietnam..this site should be called ‘Rip men project’ because all i see on this entire website are female posters trashing and complaining about men…..zzzzzzz Good Bye.

              btw,Erin when is the last time you saw a constant rotation of endless infomercials with dudes standing around bashing women on their boob size/vaginal scent? Making derogatory comments to sell a product? Thats right you haven’t because N.O.W. would be there picketing and going nuts to get them pulled off tv.Actresses or not-Take a look at the extamax spots and be proud of the modern woman…because alot of your gender encompasses the same mentality (hypocrites,misandrists,modern day male bashers)

            • And you’re response tells me I was spot on about you struggling with your own personal demons and being so wrapped up in that, you can’t objectiviely look at the subject any other.

              Within all this, lets just remember who called who a “headcase”, in what is suppose to be a mature adult conversation even when we disagree with one another. And lets also remember who went on about tired old arguements about trying to shame me specifically, as well as women in general, who speak up about things that affect them. Phrases like “female victim card” and setting women up as if they see themselves as perfect are completely irrational and ineffective arguements. Comments like these are meant to minimiize the struggles women face and be purposely attacking instead taking a step back from your own struggles for a a minute to say, “you know what, women do face some of their own stuff.” These kind of comments show your true heart and who you feel is most important in life.

              Futher, I never once said men don’t have some ridiculous standards to live up to. You’re the only one here that’s made that assumption because I dared stay on topic on this piece. Again Josh, what was this piece about?

              If you do not like Good Men Project, then don’t self torture yourself by being here. There are many sites I think you would do better to fit in with where men congregate to talk about topics the way you want to talk about topics.

              I am not here to personally insult you and it would be nice to be offered the same in return. Btw Josh, perhaps the informercials we watch are just different, perhaps the channel we watch are different, but i’ve never seen any informercial that was about male penis size. You might not see infomercials about boob size (again thanks for completely ignoring all the other avenues and ways women get that message in the real everyday world not the infomericla one) but you certainly see them trying to skin care products to make women look “younger”. Because how dare a woman age and look her age. Tons of products just like that are marketed to women to make them feel ashamed for their age. And guess what? I don’t remember the last time I saw a media marketed to men that displayed realistic 40+ year old average regular women.

              But don’t worry. I don’t expect you to care too much about this. But you do seem to live in a bubble that men are attacked more for their bodies and I think that’s completely wrong. Are men not held to other expectations? Or even expectations of their body? No, that’s not what I am saying. But considering all the ways that the female form is used to sell products I’m flabberghasted by your viewpoint. But have at it. I’m not here to change your mindset. Especially when you toss around name calling and think it makes your arguments more effective or even “right”.

    • Henry Vandenburgh says:

      Erin, I’m going to agree with most of what you said. The main problem with the bulk of porn is that it misteaches sexuality, especially to men.

      I do think that we are having a moral panic around sexuality generally, though. We’re just learning about sex at a societal level, and it’s driving us crazy. And a few prudes are trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

      I do think, too, that porn does take advantage of people from troubled backgrounds, so I’ve decided to stop watching it. I’ve enjoyed some of the bits I’ve sifted out that don’t seem so disturbing, so oh well.

      • Thanks Henry.

        What leads you to think we are having a moral panic around sexuality in general? I’m curious. is it something other then the porn issue?

        • Henry Vandenburgh says:

          Mainly the overemphasis on public figures’ sexual behavior and anyone elses. The overspecification of social-sexual behavior. I think “hostile environment” sexual harrassment codes go too far, for example. Flirting should be more okay than it is. The era of deep repression is more or less back. Some of the overpornization of society is a reaction to this, or course. But I think it’s the wrong reaction. I think many of the male-aggressive tropes we see in porn are reactions to feminism and greater female autonomy.

          • I am not a fan of knowing every detail of the latest hottest celebrity or political figure but I personally like the fact that even public figures are held to accountability for derespecting their romantic partnerships. Back in the day, these guys would just get away with it That’s not the case anymore.

            And while I do agree with you about flirting, just as you consider the male-aggressive tropes seen in porn as reactiosn to feminism (and I do agree), I also think those work place codes about sexual harrassment and flirting where a reaction to men not talking women seriously in the work place to begin with and women striving to be seen less sexual in the workplace and more equal.

    • Erin, again I just want to say that I think a lot of what you say has merit. There’s only so much I can cover in an interview, and if I had a second chance you bring up a few points I would definitely love to discuss with Mr. Deen.

      I think where I digress is two-fold: First, it seems like your assumption is that the vast, vast majority of porn (especially the rougher stuff) is viewed only by men. Statistics and anecdotal data both suggest otherwise, which is why this part of your comment struck me as debatable: “Even if this is what guys are fantasizing about, even if the girls in the movie are “acting”, why is it still okay to project the idea that humiliating women is great and that guys getting off to it is healthy?”

      I absolutely agree that there is a whole vast array of amazing sex between “vanilla” and the electrical devices you mentioned :-) And in fact, that vast space is probably where much of the population would place their sexual desires when pressed. What I think is valuable about Kink, or any of its partner sites, is that it’s a safe place for men and women to explore the extreme edges of sexuality, the places where it overlaps with power, pain, exhibitionism, etc. If you watch some Kink content (which is personally not my bag, but I did a LOT of research for this interview), there is more emphasis on female pleasure than in 90% of porn that’s out there. My point is not that you should watch kinky porn, or that anyone should. All I’m trying to say is that there’s a deep curiosity that many people have about how sex would feel with x, y, or z (more partners, bondage, devices, crude language, role-play, etc), and that safely made porn is one way to explore that.

      Second, the question of WHY men or women want to experiment with, or view, humiliating or degrading positions, actions, etc. is one that we can debate for ages. For some, it may stem out of what you might call unhealthy things (i.e. a history of abuse, low self-esteem, etc.). But I don’t believe that that is true of anyone who participates in this kind of sex, or is interested in viewing it. For some people, there is value and pleasure to be found in extremity, in experiencing something absolutely batshit crazy, but only if you can trust those participating with you. For most people it’s not as extreme as the Kink content, but it might include hair pulling, dominatrix boots, spanking, blindfolds, role play, or any of a variety of things in which you could find misogyny if you went looking.

      Lastly, because now I’m just carrrying on, I want to agree with you on a few things. Yes, most porn is made by men, which is why I support porn by Joanna Angel, Tristan Taormino, Princess Donna and the like. Adding the direction (even financially motivated direction) of women to the array of porn that is offered is necessary. I agree that the preponderance of woman-hating porn (and I mean actually hating… that stuff that Deen mentioned in his second example), is worrisome. It’s the percentages that concern me, not the individual content. In my dream world, 1) porn is only made by people who really want to be there, and are not compelled by dire economic circumstances, 2) it is only watched by adults, 3) it includes a huge spectrum of sexuality that focuses on all the ways in which people can find pleasure… even the extreme ones.

      Thanks for participating in the dialogue!

      • I have a question. If someone likes to watch images of animals or children being abused, isn’t that wrong? Wouldn’t most people say that kind of thing is unacceptable? Even if it’s staged and the animals aren’t really harmed or the children are actually very young-looking adults, most people would have a major issue with it, I suspect. Or what if some KKK guy liked watching movies of people dressed up as Jews getting tortured and gassed, would everybody be justifying it as just a way of exploring extreme feelings or whatever, as long as all the actors were consenting and well paid?

        I don’t see any difference between that and some of the porn that is out there. Hate is hate.

        • Jill, I’ve always also compared the things that we are able to do to women through porn vs things we wouldn’t be able to do to people based on their relgion or ethnicity. Such as your example of KKK guy liking to watch movies of people dressed up like Jews and getting tortured or abused. If you visit that site kink.com, just picture if the site was instead filled with Jewish people and African Americans instead of women. The tune would change real quick. And yet, it’s okay to treat women like that. Totally flabberghasting to me. Could you imagine the blacklash of exploiting and humilating and African American male for his African Americanness? But yet, you can do that to women? You cant exploit and humilate women based on their womaness. isn’t that interesting?

          • Yes Erin, that’s something that has always confused me too. When we talk about degrading or violent porn, men almost always respond by saying “but the actresses are getting paid” or “the actresses consent to everything” or “it’s just a fantasy” like that makes it okay. But if white people were spending billions of dollars downloading movies of African Americans being whipped in slave auctions, people would be outraged. No one would care if the actors were being paid a million dollars a minute. No one has ever explained to my satisfaction how it’s any different when it’s movies of women being abused.

          • Thank you so much Erin for what you are saying and thank you in particular for bringing up this very important point.

      • HI Emily – I enjoyed you taking the time to share your viewpoints, some similar and some different from my own. You are clearly articulate and intelligent yourself and I’m glad that we can see the merit in each other’s points. This is the type of dialogue I really enjoy. You do make a compelling argument.

        You’re right that I do think the vast majority of the rougher stuff of porn is viewed *mostly* by men. Not *only*, but certainly *mostly*. Especially if 1/3 of women view porn as a whole. I also wonder about how porn is shaping our sexuality in general vs what we would naturally really desire. Because when I was in my young 20s I was so eager to please my boyfriends sexually (and otherwise) that I was pretty much up for anything to please them. And at that time of my life, it was all new and crazy that I didn’t take much time to think about what really made me happy. I was more worried about how I was making *him* feel and how I looked. I found my happiness in his approval of his expectations of my sexuality and femininity. Which I discovered a lot of men defined through my ability to act more “pornstarish”.

        Which is what makes me wonder how many other young woman fall into that same trap. Seeing something men enjoy, striving to be what men enjoy, and getting so caught up in keeping their man happy, fitting into a man’s idea of what makes her a sexy women that she completely loose sight of what makes her happy. It happens so regularly with women that become mothers. It’s an old age tale how mom’s forget their own needs to take care of their families. Combined with my own experience, I do wonder how many young women and girls, that at that age are vulnerable and hungry for affection and love, fall into their own early version of that.

        As for Kink.com, I am not convinced that it’s all that “healthy” an outlet or “safe” an outlet. Would we even have these *desires* if we hadn’t seen them? Would we really feel like we were missing out if we didn’t know these crazy things existed? Some might yes but not the majority if you ask me.

        I can make a funny comparison to Facebook. Facebook gives us the illusion of friendship. A safe outlet for friendship and communication behind our computers. We don’t have to leave our houses to use it. But how emotionally healthy is it really? Facebook has changed the way we communicate and spend our time. And while Facebook is fun, how many of us are really better off because of Mafia Wars and “okaying” every friend request we get from people we don’t even talk to anymore. I think porn does the same thing. It only gives us the illusion of a healthy outlet. When I eat too many sweets and gain a few pounds, that’s visible. But if I am consuming something mentally with no outward side affect, it’s much harder to determine what affect that is having on me. And I think that’s the disconnect a lot of people have. They can’t see the change as visually as when someone might gain weight.

        But you are right, not everyone that enjoys more kinky sexual practices is nessisarly unhealthy or has a history of abuse. And what they enjoy in the bedroom with their partner might not be potentially hurtful. But what they do in the bedroom doesn’t concern me as much because that’s between the two people involved. And hopefully they are infact two (or three? ):) ) people that really respect and care about each other *first*. And that’s something that is completely lost in porn. It’s not about caring about someone first. And it does project an image to society in general about sexuality that goes unmatched by what a person chooses to do in the privacy of their bedroom.

        I am not sure that the answer to porn is more porn. Such as porn made by women. I think what we are going to have is porn made by women watched by women and porn made by men watched by men (in some cases) and it’s not really going to bring the genders together or change the content and material men are watching. All it might do is give women their own porn outlet to enjoy and this could perhaps to lead to even more sexual disconnect.

        Thanks Emily! I really did enjoy your post.

    • something says:

      Dear Erin,

      Sexual liberation is asking for what you enjoy, and being comfortable with whatever your turn-ons are. It’s not the particular turn-ons, but just the willingness to acknowledge that you have some. Not being ashamed of watching porn is an _indicator_ of being willing to express sexuality, not a _definition_ of sexual freedom.

      Fakery: I think you’re confusing (a) “fake” pleasure, (b) “fake” scenarios (that lead to real pleasure), and (c) a director guiding the couple from one real pleasure to another.

      “why is it even okay for men to get excited to see women cry or “punished” or whatever that is purposely degrading to her even if it’s being “acted” out?”

      Maybe it’s okay when the woman chooses to be humiliated because she enjoys it? Just because you wouldn’t want this for yourself doesn’t mean that nobody else should. I had a lover who had to teach me how to humiliate her and make her cry because she loved that feeling; now I fantasize about that. Do I fantasize about humiliating anyone who doesn’t enjoy it? No. Do I fantasize about finding another lover who would occasionally enjoy this same kind of play? Yes.

      • Something – On a very base surface level definition of “sexual liberation”, I agree with you that part of sexual liberation is being able to ask for what you enjoy and being comfortable with whatever your turn-ons are if they don’t originally derive from a history of abuse or self esteem. But I do disagree that it isn’t also about particular “turn-ons”. Especially when these “turn-ons” are supported and re-enforced for us through pornography. Stepping on a girls head in porn, not sexual liberation if you ask me. A woman performing oral on a man can be sexually liberating. A woman’s head being pushed so hard on a man’s penis that she is clearly uncomfortable or even in pain while he’s loving it..not sexual liberation. Characterizing women on age, ethnicity and breast size isn’t very sexual liberating to me. I really don’t know many people that would really think it was suppose to be either.

        So many men have said to me that they would never treat their own partner like the ones they’ve seen be treated in porn but it still excites them to see it. Again, that doesn’t seem anything close to sexual liberation. I infact can’t think about any stereotypical theme in porn that has anything to do with sexual liberation, especially for women. The women are still called names for expressing their sexuality (slut, whore…worse) and they aren’t treated in a fashion that is really about true mutual pleasure. Young women still dominate the industry while men and boys from 11-99 are all probably looking at the same narrow age group. (Let me take that last part back about 99 year old men, it does seem that much oder men are less dependent then men 50 and younger are today). Oh and that doesn’t even touch on the ways porn conforms male sexuality as well! Porn portrays male sexuality and selfish and brutish and cruel. That’s not sexual liberation either.

        I really don’t think I am “confusing” anything in James Deen comments about how the more “tame” porn is “real” and the woman just loves everything that’s happening and just loves men and sex and is living her little girls dream out vs the more hardcore misogynistic overtone porn where it’s all just “fake” and “fantasy” but the girl is still loving it! You do realize that that is the “fantasy” right? This is kind of something that is so disturbing to me. We all acknowledge that porn is fantasy. Yet a common argument I find with men is about how much the woman in the porn is really enjoying it or how aligned her sexuality is with what is happening to her in the movie. Really? Come on. I said it before and I will say it again. It would be like me thinking Jennifer Aniston was her Friends show character Rachel. I think men *want* to believe the fantasy. Which is why i get comments like “but maybe the woman enjoys it”. Maybe she does. But most porn is made *for* men. And most porn is about *acting*. So if we are really going to believe that porn is “fantasy” , then we need to stand by that and not make up comments like “well maybe she just loves it!” Because that’s a dangerous projection.

        As for what are okay ways to treat women, if you are talking about what happens between you and your partner in your bedroom and you both want to participate in a certain kind of play, then yes it’s okay! (Ignoring physiological reasons why someone wants to be made to cry during sex) You both agree. You both acknowledge you want it. This is something that happens between *you* and *your partner*. But when women are continually portrayed as loving varying levels of sexual humiliation and abuse from the verbal to the physical, it’s a different story. What happens in your bedroom and how women are projected in the porn world seems to be setting women up to fail and seems to be selling the idea that women LOVE to be abused sexually for male pleasure *first*, and their own pleasure second. Because what woman doesn’t want her head stepped on while men use her like something worthless. Maybe women should start selling the image that men loved to be used for their money. Some men sincerally do! But most men don’t right? Could you imagine a world of porn that was all about calling men names, using men for their money(not their bodies) and projecting the image that all the men LOVED this. And wives and gfs, daughters and mothers where walking around saying things like “well maybe men love this just because *you* don’t.” or “look just because I like seeing men treated one way through this porn doesn’t mean I don’t respect you darling”. It is so aggervating to me that we are projecting this image that women love to be sexually abused. It’s like we have already bought the kool aid porn has been selling.

      • Some questions says:

        Do you ever wonder about yourself and why it is a turn to humiliate a woman until she cries — even if she asks for it?

        If a man asked me to whip him until he bled, I would not do it, even if it was a huge turn in for him, because I’m not the kind of person who enjoys inflicting pain. That’s just not me. I understand that it is a turn on for some people, but that’s not who I am. So if someone wants that, probably a relationship with me will not work out. Similarly I would not want to be in a relationship with someone who enjoys hurting or humiliating me. That’s not the knd of person I want to be intimate with. Full disclosure: some years ago, a boyfriend wanted to do some BDSM stuff, and I let him, but after some initial experimenting, we did a full scenario that left me feeling very disturbed. I saw a side of him I didn’t like. We’d been talking about marriage, but I called it off because I realized that he was not the person I wanted to spend my life with. I saw a controlling and sadistic side that was very scary.

        So I guess what I wonder about is how men who enjoy fantasies of hurting women can claim to actually love and respect women. I admit I don’t get it al all.

  8. Mike Girard says:

    I’m really loving these people who are coming out in favor of equal rights for women and against feminism, which has become and extremely degraded discourse. It’s not surprising that sex workers are in the lead on this because they more than anyone else have felt the full force of the authoritarianism and conventional values that pervade contemporary feminism, as well as the obsessive, crazy man-hating.

    Feminism went off-track when it fixated on the idea that women are the victims and men are the perpetrators. It’s more complicated. Sexism is a tool for defining and guiding people’s lives mostly in ways that limit their choices and freedoms. It limits women and it limits men and any movement that’s going to fight sexism has to come to grips with that. Feminism doesn’t, nor certainly does the Men’s Rights movement. it’s only gonna work when we realize we’re in this together.

    • Sexism is a tool for defining and guiding people’s lives mostly in ways that limit their choices and freedoms. It limits women and it limits men and any movement that’s going to fight sexism has to come to grips with that. Feminism doesn’t, nor certainly does the Men’s Rights movement. it’s only gonna work when we realize we’re in this together.
      Damn straight. As long as those two sides keep acting like the system is lifting one gender over the other (thus causing them to think that only their side needs help or that their side has it worse and needs more help or that the other side should put its issues aside and them first) they’ll never see eye to eye. But wow, if MRAs and feminsts ever got on a united front it would really start popping.

  9. This interview was very interesting. As a feminist, I’m encouraged to see more men speaking about (or maybe more touching on the topics of) feminism, sex work, consent, kink, and masculinities. These topics are very intertwined in the lives of many men (and people of all genders) who are trying to figure out the most effective way for them to be productive allies in their communities when it comes to social justice – especially when it comes to promoting enthusiastic consent.

    Yes, James Dean is a cis-male ‘porn star’ or sex worker. He has participated in one of the most controversial and complex industries that many feminists and alike try to understand, sometimes for ideologically different reasons. While I would rather see an interview with Jizz Lee, what I find interesting here is that Dean understands, fundamentally, that sexual consent is the difference between “harassment”/sexual assault, and sex. Many sex workers understand this. Albeit, Dean is (on the surface) very privileged to speak about his work.

    Many feminists (and feminism’s) make a concerted effort to listen to those around them, especially in cases where we are becoming allies to those whos lived experiences are not of our own. Many men need to hear women’s voices, and listen to our own, to gain ground. There are a lot of sex workers who experience violence. Yet, the stigma, state violence and lack of understanding to the factors that lead to more violence is left out of our conversations. More importantly, the voices of sex workers are left out of this conversation. I hope maybe if violence is going to be an off shoot of this post, folks can speak to how they have supported the voices of sex workers in their battle to gain more autonomy. I think speaking about gender-based violence as a symmetrical thing between the sex’s is misguided and empirically incorrect.

    Anywhos, thanks for the article.

  10. porn sux says:

    this guy looks like a D-bag….enjoy your time in the industry using and degrading women kiddo.As well as picking std sores off of your crank

    .I don’t feel sorry for the porn skank actresses themselves in this biz though,i DO feel sorry for the gals out in society that pornography ends up hurting and subjecting them to unrealistic standards of beauty and a warped sense of what a sexually healthy woman is.

    • Wow. So you’re not OK with Deen allegedly “degrading” women, but you yourself refer to the women as “porn skanks,” whom you “don’t feel sorry for.” Apparently, on planet PornSux, the world is divided between dirty “porn skank” women and nice girls. What a sexist double standard. Fly that so-called “feminist” flag high, dear.

  11. So this is what you define as a ” good guy” Emily? What turned you on about him? Was it his lifestyle? (Sleep, watch TV, smoke and screw women) I know it wasn’t the 9+” of “wood” he brings to the show.(you keep saying size doesn’t matter). Can it be the great job he does tortouring women while he’s screwing them. Wait! It’s all good because the women are in on it, so he says(ever here of a “snuff film”)? But wait! It’s all different today. The porn studios are one big happy family, kind of like Disney. Except Mickey’s got Minnie bent over and is jamming 10″ up her ass while Donald’s tasering her tits and Pluto’s lifting his leg on her face. And to think I remember when “Feminist use to picket and protest outside of stores that sold Playboy and Penthouse magiziene. My how times have changed. It’s too bad my daughters never brought home a “good guy” like this. It would have given me a chance to try out my new shotgun.

    • in the ATL says:

      lol,true and i just saw another thread by this chick on gmp where she
      claims size didn’t matter much,yet shes swooning over some adult actor
      junk.Anyone smell a rat???

  12. Anonymous Male says:

    A bit of a tangent, maybe, but I’m wondering how the Nielsen ratings and other studies determine the genders of the people looking at online porn. The number stated in the article was that a third of online porn viewers are women. I don’t have a solid take on the accuracy of that one way or another, but I wonder if there might be some mismeasuring going on there, especially since so much of the viewership is anonymous.

    If this is being counted based on the apparent gender of the login name, the name on a credit card, the name of the computer’s owner, or the name on the DSL/ISP bill, there could be many cases of a man being mistakenly counted as a woman. Not to mention all sorts of titillating reasons for a man to go online posing as a woman.

    Just wondering how to get any accurate figures on something that is often secretive, anonymous, and taboo to talk about.

  13. in the ATL says:

    what does this got to do with being a good man? An interivew
    with some adult actor gonna make us good men??? Wow
    and on a male site no less,i must be trippin’…………………………..

  14. Sick and sad world we live in. Who gives a shit about doing stuff? Lets just fuck all the time like animals on the street. We’re worse than them anyway.

  15. David Wise says:

    Deen must have started in the business when he was 18. It seems like I’ve seen him in videos for many years. And he’s right, he’s known for doing some rough, hot sex scenes.

  16. These BDSMer’s crack me up. It’s like their sex isn’t real unless it’s filmed or they’re on-line telling everyone exactly what they do and how often they do it and blah blah blah. They aren’t having sex with each other. They’re having sex with the thought of other people watching them. It’s just one big fat ego trip.
    And there’s the defenders of porn. What a joke. Do you really think you have defend a multi-billion dollar a year industry? They’re doing just fine with YOUR money. Getting off with yourself is something that used to be free, doesn’t anyone feel just a bit like an idiot that you are now paying for it?
    I have some coastal property in AZ to sell you too.

    • Jun Kafiotties says:

      Why do people automatically assume if you look at porn, you’re looking at the degrading pro porn?

      With the advent of internet video porn sites and cheap cams, user made content has skyrocketted to the point A LOT of good quality, nondegrading amateur porn exists. Don’t lump porn viewers into one stereotype, many of us simply want to see sex with no degradation to help spark the fantasy. Slapping a woman around and calling her a %*^% is about as sexy as watching paint dry, and is annoying as hell to see. Have your dirty talk if you wish but don’t plaster it across everything, V A R I E T Y is needed.

      Wonder if it’s time a story on romance novels was made, how much is decent and how much is degrading?

  17. Has anyone considered what the kids of ‘tomorrow’ will be watching and wanking to?

    Porn has changed beyond recognition in the past few years, and there is a shelf life to what you can watch and enjoy, so kids will start looking for more and more and where the hell will they end up?

    Its quite scary that ‘tomorrows’ kids will end up thinking that sex is an online issue and that women are nothing more than sexual objects

    Another issue is that most of the females and some of the males ‘starring’ in porn, have been sexually abused as kids, and teenagers, and have no boundaries of what is ok and not ok

  18. Has anyone considered what the kids of ‘tomorrow’ will be watching and wanking to?

    Porn has changed beyond recognition in the past few years, and there is a shelf life to what you can watch and enjoy, so kids will start looking for more and more and where the hell will they end up?

    Its quite scary that ‘tomorrows’ kids will end up thinking that sex is an online issue and that women are nothing more than sexual objects

    Another issue is that most of the females and some of the males ‘starring’ in porn, have been sexually abused as kids, and teenagers, and have no boundaries of what is ok and not ok!

  19. Erin, you totally rock. I absolutely agree with you on just about everything. I’d say everything but I just don’t have time to read the entire comments thread. I think Emily may have been influenced by the good looking, charming Deen. Nothing in the interview demonstrates that he’s a good man beyond the fact that he likes to give oral! But like you said, not so much to actually bother filming it for his movies…
    I’ve had an issue with porn pretty much all my life, or I did have until I found a few places where women could see women having sex in a way that wasn’t all about men or wasn’t degrading to women. I agree with your comment and excuse me for paraphrasing – how can a man who regularly watches regular, old school, woman gives man head and takes it anyway the man wants to give it porn call himself a good man? Now if a man wants to watch porn where the woman is empowered and not in a pseudo, I’m on top sucking a lollipop sort of way, then that’s different but for the most part men watch porn that screws with their mind and their relationships. And what is worse, they think women who don’t like porn or don’t want them to watch it are prudes! Fuck that, I love sex, love it hard, love it slow but I don’t like porn that makes me feel cheap or like a porn star when I ask my partner to slap my ass when we are doing it.
    I wish we could go back to a time when getting turned on by what you saw in foreign language films was enough.
    Again, thanks Erin for your articulate thoughts. Hopefully there are lots of men lurking here willing to get an honest female perspective about an important issue.

  20. If anyone, even Mr Dean does not realize one day that porn is self destruction, factor time will tell what.
    Time and history has taught us that people dealing with this profession “porn”, have been difficult to start a different life after, the reason may be prejudices, health problems, mental etc things…

    Bravo Erin,
    any opinion of yours is moral, social and educational for many of us.

    Imo, Porn is self destruction for both actress and their fan.

    Just want to thank Erin for all valuable messages.

  21. The Bad Man says:

    “During this interview, at every point where I’ve asked him to choose a side, Deen defaults to “equal rights.” Are you a feminist, I ask?”

    Why continue denying that this is a feminist site? Just be honest.

  22. Good read! A couple of things:

    a) It’s quite easy to distinguish kink.com from any less responsible / actually misogynist site, for one thing the obligatory interviews with the models before and after the shoots are the sole purpose of this!

    b) James Deen always goes for the clit when he gets a chance. If there isn’t enough of that in porn it sure isn’t his fault.

    • I like performing oral sex on women. Rather a lot. But I think there’s a good reason why there aren’t a lot of box jobs in porn: sure, the action heavily involves a woman’s vaginal area (yay!)… but also a man’s face. And personally, as a straight-ish guy, looking at women turns me on and sex turns me on, but looking at men kind of doesn’t. Especially their faces. Or hair. Even when I’m actually hooking up with them and not just seeing them in porn. Men look like goofballs when they’re having sex. Not to say that women don’t too, but for some reason my brain interprets that as hot. Extrapolate this to the majority straight male consumers of straight porn, and you have an activity which, while awesome to perform, is actively de-stimulating to watch.

      Contrast that with a blow job, where the focus is on the woman’s face, and may include other sexually significant parts of her body. The cock in her mouth… well, you can imagine it’s yours, and that she’s doing to you what’s happening on screen… and try not to think too much more about it. If you’re not focused on the guy’s face, it’s about the woman and the sex. And those are hot.

      In sum, I see two ways to increase the rate of female reception of oral. a) Spend a lot more time on the woman’s reaction and a lot less on the guy doing it. b) Have both/all participants be female (my personal favorite). Although that could use more reaction shots too. Even vaginas can start to look silly.

  23. I hate that everyone disavows feminism…. but aside from that he seems “decent.”

    • Even as a gay man I understand why most do not like it. For much the same reason you dislike misogyny. As James said in the interview–feminism has become more a hatred and degradation of men rather than of equality. Of which I advocate fervently. But, neither do I believe any gender should rule the other. Instead I believe we should walk together rather than ahead or behind. Neither is less or more. Nor will I except condemnation for being born a man. As I myself have never done anything to deserve it. That isn’t to say others haven’t. Of which I have intimate and painful experience from. Yes. Men can be hurt by men too. Especially when we are children and cannot protect ourselves. So I very much understand what it is like. Which is why I feel so strongly about equality. It’s what I live for. And I’m pretty sure this is all James Deen meant as well.

  24. James Deen is so HOTT! I love him :)

  25. Yes, there is a distinct difference between Brazzers (which is who I assumed he stopped working for) and Kink.com. Every Kink.com sex scene includes a mini-interview to show that the actors are willing participants and enjoy the what they are participating in. Brazzers, a woman boss would be mean to a male “underling” and he would choke and slap her for it…. big difference.

  26. Sigh. I’m SO late to this, but obviously there’re some women here who consider themselves superior to the rest of us. I’m into BDSM. Good for me. I am also an educated, liberated woman.
    Erin shouldn’t open her big mouth and speak for all of us just because something doesn’t turn HER on. She doesn’t like deep-throating someone? Good for her. But how dare she speak for the entire female population. (I’d comment on more, but her long-winded responses had me skimming after a while. Plus it’s kind of hard to take anyone seriously when they don’t know how to spell “niche”.)

    I love people who try to defend all women, when we don’t want – or NEED – to be defended!!

  27. rachelle greene says:

    the author closes with: “There are good, smart people like James Deen and his friends, who are committed to making super-hot porn that is grounded in equality, pleasure, and consent. And yet, Deen has proven, perhaps inadvertently, that I won’t necessarily know it when I see it. None of us do, and that should make us all a little uncomfortable.”

    i would argue that we do know the difference, and that is why James Deen is so popular.

  28. Kimberly says:

    I just don’t get his appeal. He is just so fuggly to me. So it’s ok to like aggressive sex but the guy has to look like Screech? What’s wrong with muscles?

    My biggest problem with porn is a lack of physical closeness between the performers, the manscapping, the lack of tan lines. lol.

    Gay male porn is actually pretty hot to watch. Playgirl isn’t that bad but yes..it’s boring.

    • I know I’m late to the party here, but I agree with your statement that the biggest drawback for me in terms of watching porn is the lack of physical closeness between the performers. That’s exactly why I really like James Deen. If you watch some of his scenes you will notice that he talks to his partners quite a bit…just watch the girls he performs with…they seem completely enthralled. And I’m not talking about porn star acting “involved…” these girls have literally said they love working with him because he’s so passionate.

      Anyway, I think that’s where his appeal comes from…he’s passionate, an definite Alpha (even though you wouldn’t know it by looking at him) and a generous on-screen lover. I didn’t think much of him until I watched several of his scenes. Then it all became clear;)

  29. guestuser says:

    How does he go from “Girls acted like they did something ‘bad,’ like step on my shoe,” he describes, “and then I’d have rough sex to punish them. It made me feel icky.” to the recent kink.com controversial and brutal gang rape of a young girl because she’s Christian? This is a much more disturbing premise than stepping on a shoe, it’s a hate crime re-enactment. Not “Good Men Project” IMHO. You should re-evaluate his recent violent, hatred and anger scenes. Most disturbing.

  30. H is for Hagiography

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