Can I, as a woman, genuinely impact male development? Does work with men take away limited and valuable resources from women and people of other marginalized gender identities?
As a cis-gendered woman of color engaging in work to redefine and support healthy masculinities, I am constantly wrestling with my role. Knowing that men must rely on male-identified role models and mentors for examples of healthy masculinities, I struggle to see myself as effective.
Can I, as a woman, genuinely impact male development? Does work with men take away limited and valuable resources from women and people of other marginalized gender identities?
♦◊♦
I have loved and hated men, cared for and resented them.
|
My journey to this work has been building over the course of my lifetime. Men have always been important in my life, starting with my loving but complicated relationships with my father and younger brother. I also spent my childhood as an ardent tomboy and found forging friendships with male counterparts easier and more natural. However, I have also experienced the dark side of hypermasculinity, being grossly objectified, sexually harassed, and excluded from opportunities based on my gender identity. I have loved and hated men, cared for and resented them.
♦◊♦
I am constantly seeking to deepen my work with these groups of men…
|
Professionally, I am engaged in college male student development work as a career counselor on a college campus. One of the most meaningful projects I participate in each semester is facilitating conversation with men who are at-risk of suspension (almost 100% of whom are white) on the intersections between men and careers. I am constantly seeking to deepen my work with these groups of men and support them in their career decision-making process.
♦◊♦
…men are probably not the experts on what new, healthy masculinities should look like and [it is] expressly important to engage female-identified people in the discussion.
|
With this in mind, I recently attended the International Conference on Masculinities to expand my knowledge base and connect with colleagues doing similar work. I was struck by a comment made by Mychal Denzel Smith on a panel on the topic of Accountability in Activism and Research. He shared that men are probably not the experts on what new, healthy masculinities should look like and that it was expressly important to engage female-identified people in the discussion.
♦◊♦
Smith’s comments brought light to the answers I had been searching for all along and a light bulb went off.
Do I have a place in this work? Absolutely.
Could my role be as important as my male counterparts? At least, if not more so.
Am I alone? As I scanned the room and saw the hundreds who joined me in the audience, I realized that there were plenty of allies who sought to create space for my narratives and voice.
I have found my people and no longer feel alone or isolated in this work.
|
Will my voice be heard? Not always, but there is a growing group of allies and others like me having this conversation paving the way for my voice and perspective. I have found my people and no longer feel alone or isolated in this work.
♦◊♦
I have a part in this work – we all do.
|
I am now clearer than ever that I have a part in this work – we all do. Deconstructing and reconstructing social norms and systems of oppression are mammoth efforts that require multiple approaches, seemingly limitless time, and sustained commitment and patience.
Let me know in the comments if you are a woman who has found your voice in this work or a man who works to create space for women in the conversation.
Image modified from John Singer Sargent
I would ask, should men define what it should be to be a woman? We may well have a good idea, but frankly the idea would be rejected out of hand. Women should not – because they have made it clear, that they are not really concerned about male suicide, by and large, they are not concerned with regards to what is required to teach boys to read,nor seeking the reactions of men, as to what worked for them. They are not concerned with regards to the long term implications of the drugs that boys are placed on. They cannot… Read more »
The idea that women understand new masculinities better than men is absurd. At the very least it is clearly not a fact inherent in men and women. I’m pretty sure what Mychal Denzel Smith really meant is that women are more invested is sincerely discussing new gender roles than men, on average. I believe feminists when they say that women have it tougher than men, and that traditional gender roles usually put men in a position of power and priviledge compared to women. So women are more likely to support new gender roles, where as men are likely to go… Read more »
Ask a woman? Like you’d be able to stop them from telling you.
As did my question
Let me see if I understand this. Feminist want a say about Masculinity. Yet , as Per Anon noted, Feminist want no male input into their own movement. So, in essence, Feminist want to set the parameters of masculinity without male input?
Well look at how often feminists and women’s groups rally against the creation of male groups and centers at college campuses. Very often the main complaint is that they didn’t “reach out to women’s groups on campus”.
Of course they don’t all act like that but I think its prevalent enough to be worth mentioning.
They want to set themselves as the arbiters of what is good and not running something by them first is grounds to declare it bad (well they’ll say misogynistic because apparently not getting permission from them is the same has hating women).
Not only that, but the standards used to judge their critics also usually indict feminism too.
If feminism was judged by the standard it presumes to police other movements with (who put them in charge, btw?!) it wouldn’t exist either.
“He shared that men are probably not the experts on what new, healthy masculinities should look like and that it was expressly important to engage female-identified people in the discussion.” Men are probably not the experts? So I guess the “man” that said this is not the expert and accordingly should not be listened to? And how about the man Mark Green? He’s very committed to the development of men in today’s society, let’s not listen to him? The countless male writers for GMP …. To make a statement that men are “probably not” minimizes strides men have made. I… Read more »
Tom, you’re spot on! “Women are probably not the experts on what new, healthy feminities should look like and that it was expressly important to engage male-identified people in the discussion.” All of a sudden, this sounds mysoginistic. Completely unacceptable. It would sound like men are telling women what they can and cannot be. Mansplaining. Because the genders are reversed doesn’t make it ANY MORE acceptable. This is misandristic womansplaining at its worst. And don’t hide behind the fact that a man said it first. It’s easy to find women that will tout that women’s place in society is barefoot… Read more »
Two thumbs up to you SimonP
@ Tom B
Well I guess if men aren’t the experts, I can’t see it being women. I guess then we should leave it to God. Wonder where that gets us.
It got me in a great place. The last 20 years of my life, He’s done amazing things in my life and He’s made me the man I am today.
I think women are essential to creating healthy and beneficial masculinities. But the “and beneficial” part is important. Michael Messner has pointed out in Politics of Masculinities that when men’s movements focus only on making masculinity healthier for men, they can miss some opportunities to also make it more beneficial to women and children. Sure, I think if a man is more in touch with his inner archetypes and clearer about his purpose, he probably will treat people around him better. But if, for example, no one ever tells him that a lot of women experience so many “compliments” from… Read more »
gee, maybe because men shouldnt be required to mold themselves into what ever requirements are beneficial for women?
Hi Ana, I definitely agree that women are essential to moulding masculinity (remembering, everyone, that we do live in a world that has more than one gender) and absolutely have their place – it is just very disappointing to see that this non-defensive approach not shared by the feminist movement generally as a whole when males attempt to get involved and share their views on equality for women, refer to this recent article by prominent Author/Journalist Ruby Hamad: http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/men-who-want-to-lead-the-fight-for-womens-rights-20150414-1mkhf4.html I do however challenge your view on men’s groups, and MRA’s – I think you may be surprised how much of… Read more »
Apologies – Asa not Ana
Michael Messner has pointed out in Politics of Masculinities that when men’s movements focus only on making masculinity healthier for men, they can miss some opportunities to also make it more beneficial to women and children. And why should they? Women’s movements do not go out of their way to improve masculinity. I mean, they relentlessly and hypocritically criticise it, but I wouldn’t call that “improvement”. They certainly do not go out of their way to criticise women and femininity in the same way, and to make it better for men and boys. Why are men held to a higher… Read more »
OrishM
No why on earth should men have their and other peoples CHILDREN welfare on their mind?
Why should men behave in ways that is beneficial for CHILDREN?
You really do not see why?
Dear me, did I say that? I’m talking about the differing standards men’s movements are held to. Why should men care about reforming masculinity for the benefit of others when the same is not taken seriously when demanded of women’s movements?
Same old same old – men are something to be fixed, women are wonderful.
I’m running out of thumbs up OirishM
@ Asa Henderson
“But if, for example, no one ever tells him that a lot of women experience so many “compliments” from strangers that it’s no longer a pleasant experience for them, it might never occur to him to stop doing it, and he could unwittingly make some people’s lives a little worse rather than a little better.”
But if men didn’t base their masculinity on the number of women they dated, they may be less likely to compliment a stranger.
There is value in direct experience and knowledge, and on the cost side, personal bias and narrowed perspective can mislead. There is value in arms length, view from above – but it too comes at a cost of misunderstanding the intricacies.
There is little value in not understanding either of the above and writing an opinion piece that includes neither of the above.
Succinctly put: Thank-you elissa!
It doesn’t seem to me that anyone is suggesting that testosterone be eliminated from your life. Perhaps if a few ‘men’ could unglue their heads from up their butts, they might be more successful? Being a man is much more than being the boss. True strength comes from weakness, understanding, and growth. If some of these posters had learned that, some of these posts wouldn’t have happened. Maybe a woman’s touch couldn’t hurt?
No, I don’t think anyone is suggesting we remove testosterone from our lives. Why did you mention it?
Very compassionate and thoughtful response there – is this the sort of blinding insight into masculinity we should be seeking out from women?
Is there some invisible web ink that only you can see but no other?
ooh not passive-aggressive scare quotes! The e-shame! My gender identity has thus been invalidated!
This is the new world
We are going to remake men and guess what men are not even going to get a REAL say in it.
Can I, as a woman, genuinely impact male development? Does work with men take away limited and valuable resources from women and people of other marginalized gender identities? When you ask the question like that it really sounds like a zero sum game. You almost sound like you’re worried that helping men in and of itself harms women and other marginalized gender identities. Why does it have to be that way? He shared that men are probably not the experts on what new, healthy masculinities should look like and that it was expressly important to engage female-identified people in the… Read more »
@ Danny
The value of a man has always been measured by what he can provide for a woman. How is what the OP proposes something other than traditional masculinity? Women are simply demanding a higher return for I’d say a lower investment, but let’s be real, no investment.
That’s what I wonder John.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with getting input and contributions from women but as we can see that’s not enough. The current push is for women to have a deciding voice on what masculinity is and define it for men.
THat’s not going to work in the long run. No matter where they get tips, advice, etc… from men ultimately have to make their masculinity on their own terms. Looking to women for the answer won’t work.
How much input are you willing to take from men on how to be a “good woman”?
I grow up in a good Asian family and I learn a lot from my mother. My father is a respected man but he is not a talker. So my mother praise his virtue in front of me. My mother also explains virtues as genderless goodness : keep your promise, take care of yourself, take care of others if you can, think of how it will affect others before doing what you do, be generous, be hardworking, accept your feeling, etc. My mother suggests that I learn the good things from both of them. Till today I still believe good… Read more »
In absolute terms, perhaps. When you compare this scenario with how male allies of women’s movements are treated however, no. Feminism, for example, is regularly described as a place where men cannot have input. While I’m prepared you may have something to bring here, I find it rather astonishing that you and the speaker can presume to have relevance to this discussion while providing nothing in this piece to back that assertion up. Frankly, I’m a little tired of women and their movements meddling in the lives of men and in men’s movements, but the reverse isn’t considered acceptable. I… Read more »
I don’t need a women to tell me about “masculinity.” I am who I am and if it doesn’t fit her view, well so be it.
Ditto!!!!
Enough of this social engineering stuff. Plus women rarely practice what they preach.
I think the involvement of women is almost an absolute necessity in this field. One of the most pernicious aspects of toxic masculinity is the way it discourages men from talking to each other about issues of importance, or questioning received ideas about masculinity in any way. In my experience (as a man), unless a woman is there to start the conversation, no conversation happens. (And I freely admit to being part of this problem. As much as I care about these issues, I pretty much never bring them up myself.)
I’ve experienced the opposite. I’ve had relevant conversations with men especially about abuse that would have never taken place if a woman was present.