Is women’s obsession with beauty because of an intense desire to be attractive to men? And if so, is it a men’s issue?
Mark D. White wrote a post today that gives an honest look at a guy struggling to understand a woman’s relationship to beauty, and how he, as a guy, should talk to her about it. Compliment her looks? Her intelligence? But why—when the woman he was dating was so smart, successful, creative—why did she seem to place such value in being complimented on her looks above all?
Commenter Trev, below, actually helped me articulate my argument, and that is this: Women are not honest about how important being attractive to the opposite sex is. And that causes a breakdown in communication between men and women. And that’s why it’s worth discussing.
I cannot comment about what men think. I don’t even want to over-generalize and pretend to know what all women think. But this topic is a source of much fascination to me (not to mention angst), and so I would like to tell you my worldview. In fact, my observations come from what can only be described as an obsession.
Women would rather be dead than seen as not beautiful.
Sometimes I talk to my girlfriends about aging. After a while, I noticed a pattern—without any hesitation, they all said, “Oh, no, I don’t want to get old. No, thanks, I’d rather be dead.” So then I started asking the question farther and wider, and I got pretty much a unanimous verdict. Women would rather die early than get old enough so they weren’t beautiful any more. Even women who didn’t necessary believe that for themselves fully understand the sentiment.
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I am not being critical of men here, not in the least. It is not wrong to want beauty in one’s life—however you define that, wherever you find it. But if men are wondering why it’s difficult to get the conversation around beauty right when talking to women—this is how I see it.
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The other example of “death before beauty” is eating disorders. The experience I have found is that almost every woman who has an eating disorder has it because she has an unnatural fear of being seen as unattractive by the opposite sex. That would be about an estimated 65 percent of the female population. In fact, some studies show the mortality rate associated with anorexia nervosa is 12 times higher than the death rate associated with all causes of death for females 15-24 years old. The suicide rate of that age group with anorexia is 32 times the norm. The conclusion I draw is that women are so worried about being seen as unattractive by men that they can’t eat—even if it ultimately causes irreparable harm.
Brains may be important, but beauty is seen as the cost of entry.
Tom Matlack wrote what I thought was a very thoughtful piece a while back: “Women We Love for the Wrong Reasons.”
His point was that men loved women for much more than beauty: “Yes, good men love women. But we love women in all their complexity, for the things they do, for their intelligence, their wit, their athleticism, their creativity, their power, their force of personality.”
And yet, when this was cross-posted on Jezebel, Tom got lambasted for implying earlier in his post that women, as one commenter said “must be both beautiful AND smart. I mean, what if you’re ordinary looking and smart?” Many responded with a fair amount of vitrol, but some with humor: “Oh, need we be hot also? That takes a lot of time away from my intellectual activities. Plus, a lot of hot-making activities are pretty boring. Can’t it be enough that I’m clean?”
The anger from so many women was the implication that beauty was somehow a cost of entry to even be noticed. And in Mark’s piece, he reinforces that sentiment, “Like I said, a difficult line to walk, especially for men who respect and admire women for their brains and their beauty.”
Beauty gives women privileges they wouldn’t otherwise have.
Yesterday, one of our commenters on this post said, “If Tiger had have taken a golf club to his wife because she cheated would you be describing him as ‘super smart and beautiful?’ No, that would make him a criminal.”
I happen to agree.
Men rarely use the world “beautiful,” except when talking about women.
This was one of those things I noticed decades ago and kept looking for an example to disprove my theory. The only seeming exception was when men were talking about a “beautiful” play in sports.
But all the things that I, as a woman, think are beautiful—art, far-off galaxies, kindness, a street performance, a complex mathematical equation that makes me go “ah”, a thunderstorm, poetry, a strategic business plan, a hurricane lamp made from a coffee can with holes punched in it—none of those has ever brought about the word “beautiful” from a guys, certainly not with the awe-filled tone of voice that I hear when they talk about a beautiful woman.
Personally, as a woman, that puts enormous pressure on me—to be constantly worried that I am the only source of beauty other than the woman next to me who is (without a doubt) more beautiful than I am.
I am not being critical of men here, not in the least. It is not wrong to want beauty in one’s life—however you define that, wherever you find it. But if men are wondering why it’s difficult to get the conversation around beauty right when talking to women—this is how I see it. And maybe the way to have the conversation be so less charged with peril is for all of us to simply expand our vocabulary about what beautiful really is.
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Read Mark D. White’s article “Beauty or Brains: Which is More Important to Emphasize?” here.
About Lisa Hickey
No I think they are focused on a much smaller group of men above them so competition is high among them and they have developed beauty tricks like make up and so on, to make themselves appear more desirable than they are in order to compete with other women, to be attractive to men at higher end of the attraction scale.
There was a survey on OKCupid and some charts that demonstrate this. As you can see, the male bell curve relating to attraction based on looks, shows that men consider a large group of women to be average where as women considered only a small group of men at the higher end of the attraction scale average.
So female obsession with using tricks and technology to make themselves appear more attractive than they are, is likely due to their hypergamy. Here is the survey and the charts.
h tt p://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/
I don’t know why TGMP is so focused on shifting responsibility for female behavior, onto men. Putting women in a box where they are constructed to be children and men in another where they are expected to be the parents of women-children is deeply sexist.
I think that the reaction on Jezebele is all likely projection. It’s generally not men that are holding women to unreasonable standards, its generally women that are holding men, and each other to unreasonable standards, and blaming men for it.
Trev — I’m not “blaming” men for anything. I DO think a lot of it is projection on the part of women — they care too much what men think. But does that mean that men shouldn’t care at all about what is happening in that dynamic?
It’s one of those taboo topics — from how I see it, women won’t have truthful conversations with men about this topic.
There’s no fault. The only thing to do from here is to start the conversation and keep talking about it.
Well Lisa, if as per TGMP we make all female issues male issues while females make no male issues theirs and often shift responsibility for their issues onto men. Men are being treated as a lower caste that exists as a utility to a higher caste. It can’t be all take and no give.
Lisa – Evidently, it’s not just what men think; they care too much what other women think as well. Very interestingly, women also seem to care as much or even more about what men other than their husbands think of their appearance, as if there is a constant need to be found beautiful by men who are not yet convinced.
I have heard from women that they are also busily competing against other women in appearance that they dress and groom for and to compete with out women – even when there aren’t any men around to compete for the attention of. What pressure!
I’ve noticed that women will come home to their husbands (the man they are ostensibly want to impress with their appearance above all others) and take off all the make-up and designer clothes, etc. that they won’t leave the house without. If they are dressing/grooming to please a man, wouldn’t it be the opposite? Wouldn’t they care more about being beautiful at home to their husband than with other men outside the home? This suggests a need for constant affirmation of their attractiveness from men. The man at home already loves her and thinks she’s beautiful but the others may still need convincing, so she dresses up and wears make-up for them. I don’t know but I can’ see any other explanation.
I don’t have it all figured out but it’s complex and it seems clear to me that this really is a women’s issue and I don’t think there is anything that men can do to change it.
This that mention Eric is very interesting — I would love to have someone do a post just about this:
“I’ve noticed that women will come home to their husbands (the man they are ostensibly want to impress with their appearance above all others) and take off all the make-up and designer clothes, etc. that they won’t leave the house without. If they are dressing/grooming to please a man, wouldn’t it be the opposite? Wouldn’t they care more about being beautiful at home to their husband than with other men outside the home?”
It is complex, but I believe the reason it’s so complex is because it doesn’t get talked about honestly by both sides. Do husbands care that their wives only want to look good in public but not at home? Do they think their wives look better in the designer suits and makeup? What about personality — if a woman acts one way outside the home but totally different inside.
Men are responsible in that society is responsible. After all, beauty is a term whose definition changes from person to person.
A few points:
1. Women are more harsh on each other than men. If I question a man about my physical attractiveness, I get a blanket statement (you’re hot, I’d do you, etc.). If I ask a woman the same thing, I get a more detailed and often backhanded answer (you’re cute, but…, you’d be much more attractive if…). Note the change in the level of perceived attractiveness, and the caveat to latter statements. Why?
2. Women are unbelievably harsh on themselves. I found my beauty in my upper twenties because I realized, that, no matter how beautiful a woman is inside and out, we are never happy with some (perceived) flaw. A friend, who is absolutely gorgeous, was picking on her ‘flaws’. I was bewildered that a woman who can actually stop traffic saw herself in such negative light. In the folowing weeks I noticed more and more that the women around me, who I think all have exceptionally beautiful physical attritubes of some kind, had some major critiques of themselves. So you dislike your x, y and z…but you really like your a, b, and c…celebrate that. I know I’d rather learn to love what I was given and find a partner who does as well, instead of spending copious amounts of time and money changing what formed out of the DNA of two amazing parents.
3. On a social level, we are ALL responsible for the perceptions of attractiveness for women AND men (with all the new beauty products for men, it has never been more apparent that the stereotypes of attractiveness profoundly affect our guys too). I remember a few weeks ago reading an article on this site about men and their physical insecurities. Society works on a supply and demand level. If we demand of our advertisers that they portray healthier images of attractiveness, en masse, we will be heard. Sign a petition, write a letter, blog…take action to change a trend. When normal becomes the norm, these insecurities will not be so high.
“And maybe the way to have the conversation be so less charged with peril is for all of us to simply expand our vocabulary about what beautiful really is.”
Exactly, Lisa–I couldn’t agree more!
I agree that it is “also” a men’s issue. Though no one should expect to walk through life without experiencing external pressures to feel desirable to their sexual interests – beauty (women) and success (men) are the stereotypes – those same no one(s) are indeed everyone, and anything we can offer each other to lessen the burden is truffles.
Everyone gets that desirability is much more complex and nuanced than the broad stereotypes, as we also get that this knowledge does not erase those insecurities. A simple recognition is a very good thing all around.
men’s desire to be ‘beautiful’ is just as great as women’s nowadays…
http://www.marksimpson.com/blog/2011/07/29/shane-warne-comes-out-looking-pretty/
Who cares what they think and why would a mens publication bow and scrape before a publication that is populated by idiots and pro-domestic violence against men?
See the Jezebele article entitled “Have youever beat-up a boyfriend cause uh we have” you can no longer see the comments but it was full of women bragging and patting each other on the back for committing domestic violence, some of it very serious. The clowns at Jezebele should be ridiculed, not put on a pedestal.
Of course women want to be thought of as beautiful. We are all inundated with images of gorgeous women everywhere we go. We are taught that our value as women lies in the ability to make ourselves sexually attractive. We can’t blame this one on men. We are ALL being sold messages about female beauty and sexuality in the media and advertising. The APA Report on the Sexuality of Women and Girls in the Media pointed out that all this sexualization causes women and girls to objectify THEMSELVES (Caps for emphasis, not anger). Which means that we are buying into the message that the only thing that matters is our perceived hotness, and in my opinion, it’s completely understandable. We all want to think we’re immune to the millions of messages we receive from the various forms of media, but unfortunately that just isn’t true.
You speak it so well
Thank you.
I’m not blaming anything on men. I’m asking that men and women talk about it together. I’m not sure that women alone can fight the battle the battle you mention — “We are ALL being sold messages about female beauty and sexuality in the media and advertising.” Men are being sold a ton of stereotypes about how they should look and act as well — and one thing we try to do here is call out those instances when they happen.
Thank you for articulating that piece of it.
Hey, Lisa….sorry for making is seem as though I was criticizing you or this piece–I wasn’t at all, and I’m glad you wrote about this issue because it should definitely be discussed. I wasn’t saying that you were blaming men. I was half asleep when I wrote this, so I didn’t think my words through very carefully. I liked the article. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
Men have to deal with this issue mostly in the sense that they have to deal with women in their lives. Men can choose how much they want to contribute to the situation.
As I have been reading posts and comments on the GMP about various issues (okay, mostly porn and sexuality), I am kind of surprised at how disempowered so many of the women are and how much we like to play the victim role. It is kind of sad to witness both in other women as well as in myself.
I will be the first to admit that most women like to be seen and most women like to look pretty. We just do. I don’t fully understand it but I do.
At the same time, so many of us seem to have bought into this concept that a woman’s only real value is in her physical appearance. Even though we have college degrees and careers we still only seem to value ourselves for our beauty and the kind of man (and life) we think it will purchase for us. My evidence for this is in the idea Lisa mentions in her article about preferring death over aging. It is also evident in the comments I have seen from women about the issue of porn and their fears of not measuring up to the female actresses in porn. You know, I don’t want to give my power away like that and it’s a struggle sometimes not to do so.
Personally, I look forward to aging. From what I have seen, many women in their 50s and above have a strength, confidence, and wisdom I don’t see in younger women. I want that for myself and I know it will only come with age. At the same time, I do recognize the process to get there will involve letting go of my youth and the type of physical beauty that accompanies it. It’s not easy to do but I think it will be worth it.
I also think a lot of men respond to more than youth and beauty in women. They are attracted to strength, intelligence, kindness, and a multitude of other qualities. From a realistic perspective, I know my boyfriend isn’t involved with me because he finds me the sexiest, most attractive woman he knows. I know this because I have eyes. There are tons of beautiful women out there. But, when he compliments me on my courage, strength, or intelligence I know he really sees and appreciates me for all I am. When he opens up to me about his feelings and his problems, I know that I have helped create an environment where he feels safe and where real love can grow. That is more valuable than perky breasts, a flat stomach, or long eyelashes.
We cannot control the experiences or opinions of others but we can control how we view ourselves and what we value most about ourselves. I think men will and do respond to that.
This is your opinion, yet you are stating it like a fact that posts like this and this state of mind is disempowering to women, that “we” play the victim role, and that men have to deal with the same thing. No.
It is a large double standard, and men rarely have to deal with the feat of being attractive enough for a women (or if they’re homosexual, for another man). It is an entirely different ballpark, and putting the two in the same category is like comparing professional ice skating in the Olympics to pick up sticks.
It is true that it is a wonderful thing for a man to compliment a woman’s personality and what else she has to offer besides her looks, but the point isn’t whether or not the woman is a super model – it’s that HE finds her beautiful. Beautiful to HIM. We can’t disregard it like it’s not important; why would you be with someone if you didn’t find them attractive? That’s a factually important part of a relationship (unless you’re in a relationship wherein both parties want nothing to do with sex).
The truth of the matter is that no matter how much a person values their beauty, it’s usually quite nice to receive a compliment on their appearance. It’s probably not healthy to have attention focused on that, just like it’s not healthy to have an obsession or fixation on anything.
What I am saying is that I find the attitudes of women mentioned in this post as well as in the various comments section to be disempowered.
Men have other issues to deal with that women do not except in that we have to deal with men in our lives. Men don’t appear to worry as much about being physically attractive to women but they do worry about being attractive to women.
Yes, most everybody likes to be complimented on their looks. I’m not saying they don’t. But this idea that women are better off dead than old is excessive. The fact that women say nonsense like that is proof that they have decided that only way for their lives to be fulfilling or worthwhile is if they are young and attractive. Those are their thoughts in their heads. They have to take responsibility for that.
If a man is in a relationship with a woman he usually thinks she is attractive in some fashion. Obviously, he’s getting something out of it or he wouldn’t be there. The primary attractiveness though need not be physical. Most men I know don’t have a problem complimenting their wives and girlfriends on their beauty or attractiveness.
Last year, I was in a relationship with (dare I say it?) an utterly beautiful, intelligent man who loved having sex with me and constantly told me how attractive I was. That was nice but I didn’t feel like he appreciated anything else about me. Oh, and when a man compliments me on my courage or strength or knowledge, I don’t view those as my “personality”. That’s character. Those are all results of choices I have made in my life. They are integral parts of what gives my life purpose. Those are values and parts of myself I want my children to see and consider emulating or at least respect.
I don’t understand your comment about sexuality and physical attractiveness. Are you saying people only have sex with people they are physically attracted to? That may be the case for you but not for me. I am in and have been in relationships with men who I did not and do not find to be particularly physically attractive. Yet, I still love them and have sex with them. Furthermore, I have had sex with a number of the men who I did not find physically attractive. They were just there and they were, ahem, ready. My only standard in those situations is hygiene, skill level, and respect for my boundaries.
When it comes to pure physical attractiveness, I am far more attracted to women than men. However, my relationships are predominantly with men because they have something to offer that is more than merely physically attractive. (NO, it has nothing to do with their status or income. I make more money than most of the men I am in relationship with.)
I’m not sure I get the whole playing-the-victm charge. It seems to me to be another way to shut down dialog about a problem that one isn’t comfortable discussing. Not that I’m accussing you of doing that, Jeni, but I do find it a bit….odd whenever people bring that up. It’s kind of like the race card. If someone cries racism, it’s certainly easier to dismiss their charges and their concerns by accussing them of playing the race card than it is to examine the evidence and the implications that come along with it.
I dunno….maybe that whole silly “You’re just playing the whiny victim!” charge works on some people, but it doesn’t work on me. These are legitimate concerns that some people have. The fact that they don’t affect you may be less of an indication of the complainers playing any card and more indicative of your need to develop your empathy. Just a thought.
Yeah, I’m a cold-hearted bitch. I’ll own that. No worries there.
Given that I am a female who was raised to believe my only value was in my physical attractiveness and that my intelligence would only serve to help me get a better class of husband, I would say, “Sorry! I disagree!”
Just like any other woman in her late 30s I’m looking down the road and seeing that I sure as hell won’t be getting any prettier (at least not from a conventional perspective). I’m not going to blame men for that though.
I am aware that, from a conventional perspective, I should be using the beauty I have left to catch myself a man who will stay with me and safeguard me against all ills until the day I die. But you know what? That doesn’t seem very interesting to me. Rather than trying to find somebody else to make me feel better about myself, I am choosing to live my life fully, take on my fears, and believe that I am worthwhile regardless of whether or I’m alone or that anyone thinks I’m beautiful.
Yeah, that’s a bad idea. It’s soooo much better to whine about it and live in fear. Oh, and those are totally the values I want to pass on to my daughter. Yep, that’s the ticket!
“It is a large double standard, and men rarely have to deal with the feat of being attractive enough for a women (or if they’re homosexual, for another man). ”
How can you possibly know any of this, D? And the second part of that is just laughable – gay men don’t have to worry about physical attractiveness for other men? Honey, you need a good hard slap with the clue stick.
I mean really, what would lead you to say something so obviously untrue? What motivates such a statment?
I totally agree with you, Jeni!
A few weeks ago, I was watching a movie where there were a couple of men who didn’t look exactly right for their environment or roles, and I realized that female actors always have to look the part of whatever they play. That pressure is enormous even in real life. I’d never be hired as a waitress, since I’ve never been into makeup and don’t have a look that says I want men to love me. I’m sure I’d like the job, and be good at it, but I’d never be considered. Another one like that is receptionist. I’m extremely polite and like almost everyone, but don’t really cotton to the way pink-collar employees are treated.
I think girls learn very early in life that how they look is essential to who they are. How many times a day do people tell little girls “you’re pretty”? How many Disney princesses are ugly?
I can’t just blame men for this, of course. It comes from both men and women. Women can be very competitive with each other, but I think it’s fundamentally rooted in a desire to be seen as attractive by men.
On the other hand, I won’t let men off the hook. All the guys taking “pickup artist” seminars are not trying to learn how to “pick up” uggos. They are taking pickup artist classes with the express intent of trying to pick up hot babes, preferably “perfect 10′s.” If you read the advertisements on pickup artist websites they say things like “never date an ugly woman again.” Women know that their looks are probably the most important quality they have in attracting a man. Looks won’t keep a man around, necessarily, but without physical attraction, men will never even approach you. Women who are not genetically blessed, who are heavier, older, disabled or otherwise undesirable are totally invisible to men.
I’ve said this before in commenting on other articles on GMP. Men often complain about women having all the power to choose in the dating and relationship world. This proves to me that less attractive women ARE invisible because the only women with the power to choose from a wide selection of men are the highly attractive, generally young women. Average or below-average looking women get very little attention, struggle to find relationships and sometimes end up dating guys who treat them badly, out of desperation.
I was not terribly attractive in my teens/20′s. I was too tall, I was very shy, overly intellectual and gawky, and I struggled with my weight. My first boyfriend in college regularly picked on me about my weight (at the time, I was about 20 pounds overweight) and it took me months before I finally dumped him. He made me miserable but I didn’t think I could get anyone else. I felt like, “well at least he’s willing to date me, and no one else is.”
Many women are deeply afraid of ending up ugly, old, alone and surrounded by cats. We know that to avoid that, staying attractive to men is everything.
I’ve always anticipated that I will end up old and alone. Women in my family tend to outlive the men by 20+ years. Things didn’t get sad for them until the last few years when they ended up in nursing homes. They spent a good many years enjoying themselves and being active in their communities. If I am lucky enough to live as long as they did I hope I have their zest for life.
Also, when I was young I bought into the idea that I was so weird that if I didn’t take the first chance that was offered to me to get married I never would get it again. So I married at 18 and divorced at 32. You know what? My assessment might have been true. I may never again have the opportunity to get married and live a “normal” life but since then I’ve figured out that “normal” doesn’t suit me and I’m better off alone than pretending to be someone I’m not.
Regarding this statement:
“Women can be very competitive with each other, but I think it’s fundamentally rooted in a desire to be seen as attractive by men.”
Does this include married women? Or, do women stop competing with other women in attractiveness after they get married? I would think so. After all, why would married women be competing for the attention of other men?
Married women still want to be attractive to men, including but not limited to their spouse, just as married men still want to be attractive to women. A lot of these feelings are unconscious so it’s not like it’s a rational decision. If you think women stop worrying about their attractiveness once they “catch a man,” go read the comments to the recent articles about porn.
Jill – so are married women subconciously trying to attract other men? Why do they, once they get one, stop trying so hard with him? Is it like once an animal makes it kill he doesn’t need to keep rekilling, s/he re- focuses on hunting for the next one and the next one after that and so on?
Perhaps having just one man is not good enough. Perhaps Jeni’s right, women aren’t naturally monogamous (any more than men). Perhaps they just express it differently in that they try to use their appearnance to continuoyusly atract men. Perhaps they are simply wired to try to attract as many men as possible.
Many women would not be caught dead w/o makeup outside the house take it off when they get home to the man they ostensibly care about impressing the most with their appearance.
BTW, this is not analogous to viewing porn as men are not trying to attract or even internact with other women by viewing porn. Not that men are all naturally monogamous either, just that the porn parallel fit here.
Eric,
Check out the Coolidge effect on Wikipedia. Also, we’re built for attracting as many mates as possible. Men are built to have their sperm compete inside a woman’s body more than they are built to have them compete outside a woman’s body. This is why our body size dimorphism is less than gorillas but more than gibbons. It’s also why human males have larger testicles and penises than gorillas. Gorillas beat off competitors with sheer physicality. Human males do that to a certain extent but they also do that with the sheer quantity and quality of their sperm.
Well, Eric, I would say that’s because humans are not naturally monogamous. We like to pretend that we are but I don’t see a lot of proof of that.
True, true. Those who are naturally monogamous don’t have to put a lot of effort into not getting involved with other people when they are in committed relationship any more than a heterosexual has to try hard to be attracted to a person of the opposite sex.
Very well said as always, Jill.
“Many women are deeply afraid of ending up ugly, old, alone and surrounded by cats. We know that to avoid that, staying attractive to men is everything.”
Yeah but why are you framing this as something that doesn’t effects men and disproportionately affects women when In reality, women impose more standards on men with their hypergamy?
I getting very tired of gynocentric feminism, women are not the be all and end all and the center of the universe.
Not sure I follow you. Do you deny that men prefer attractive women over unattractive women?
Also, I can only speak to my own experience. Other commenters (like yourself) are welcome to add a different point of view.
“Not sure I follow you. Do you deny that men prefer attractive women over unattractive women?”
I’m not sure how you can be absorbed in yourself as to think that’s something that’s gendered. Both men and women prefer attractive over unattractive and women hold men to higher beauty standards that men do women from the survey I’ve seen on it, also women also hold men to other standards that men do not hold women to.
So the feminist approach to gender relations – gender narcissism and all take and no give, is what I’m denying here.
We have written about about this very thing from a male perspective — The Male Body: Repulsive or Beautiful — comes to mind. http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/the-male-body-repulsive-or-beautiful/
We are welcome to any commenters writing posts about a perspective of this conversation they feel passionate about.
I did acknowledge that women are very competitive with each other. And of course there are standards that women impose on men, which you are free to discuss. That might add an interesting element to the discussion of these complicated issues. Instead, you are simply complaining that you are offended by the fact that beauty standards for women is the topic that’s under discussion, as though any discussion of that topic is impermissible as long as “men have it bad too.” I which case, I wonder why you are here commenting at all.
That would be fine if the publication wasn’t saying men are bad women are good, men are adults women are powerless children etc and there weren’t a gaggle of feminist here squeaking about how its all true and women are helpless children and men should take responsibility for women’s choices and neuroses while offering nothing on return.
This one hits close to home. Notwithstanding the fact that I am with my own teenage wet dream, some days she cries to me that she feels ugly. This cuts me to the bone, because she is so farking gorgeous is hurts.
Why can’t our lives be better than they are? Not perfect, but better? Sigh…
She probably knows how much you (and other men) value her for her looks, and fears she can’t live up to those standards, especially as she ages. Being beautiful is a double edged sword for that reason.
Not that this helps at all, but “WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!”
Whimper, whimper…. Ok, I feel a bit better.
Sigh…
See Jill – this is exactly where you lose the confidence of some of your audience. There is acknowledgement that external pressures impact all of us. There is acknowledgement that the type of expectations may be different (not all agree exactly), and that they are very difficult to maintain. And then someone states that tears have been shed over this internal turmoil and you immediately externalize the blame for the turmoil outside the individual. It does not work that way. We are not helpless sponges. We own our individual unrealistic expectations just as much, if not more so, than the external powers that be. We have a brain and we dare to use it to inject full-fledged reality into our self-perception. The weakness of us women is that we internalize far too much. The weakness of men is that they externalize far too much.
I am only making a factual observation that beautiful women are often insecure because they fear not being beautiful enough or they fear losing their beauty. I’m not saying it’s “right” to feel that what. You are confusing an explanation with an excuse. Of course we all have a personal responsibility to work on being strong enough internally not to cave into our own neurotic pressures but how many of us really manage to do that consistently?
Too much stereotypical “beauty” looks engineered and manipulative. Healthy looks sexy and accessible. I don’t think all men fall for this.
Interesting article Lisa, but I’m a bit concerned about your comments on Anorexia.
The causes of eating disorderes are immensely complex and disputed, and attributing it to “an unnatural fear of being seen as unattractive by the opposite sex” is inaccurate and a dangerous misreading of the real problems.
Anorexia is undoubtely tied up with self-loathing and is in many ways similar to self-harming behaviour like cutting and hair pulling.
Laurie Penny wrote well about it in the Guardian a few weeks ago.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/02/child-anorexia-size-zero
The real problem is not “size zero”. The real problem is that we live in a neurotic, miserable society with a deeply disturbed attitude to food, nurture and consumption, a society which teaches children, and particularly girls, that their growing bodies and normal desires are unacceptable and must be starved away.
I found this piece to be uplifting and well-written. The idea that an honest dialogue has not yet taken place because one side (though possibly both) has remained dishonest (possibly with themselves?) is an extremely positive idea: it suggests that open dialogue and genuine sharing of experiences can be a solution to stress people (and society) put upon themselves.
I only wish that the other writers at the Good Men Project would take note.
Often when the shoe is on the other foot, and the topic is something that men are unlikely to be honest with themselves about, the suggested solution is NOT moving towards a more open and honest dialogue, but rather slinging shame at men. For proof of this please see every piece written ever by either Hugo Schwyzer or Amanda Marcotte.
Sadly but absolutely correct.
Ah, that word — beautiful.
I am one of those young women that hangs out with far more men than women. They often forget that I’m there, or at least that I am a female person, so I get to hear them say things like “oh that girl is so BEAUTIFUL, look at her body, tits, arse, hair, etc.” and then tack on, as an afterthought, “oh right and she is also smart and accomplished.”
On top of that, look at discussions online. When it’s evident that a poster with whom another poster disagrees is female, you often see, “well, you’re fat/ugly” presented as if it were a trump card.
I’d like for someone to ask men, “What makes you feel beautiful?”
Get ready to not have any answers. And if that doesn’t break your heart into a million tiny pieces; then you need a heart transplant.
I’m 43. I’ve been married twice and am in a long-term relationship now. And the first time I ever felt beautiful was about a month ago. I mean I felt, for the first time ever, that I – me – was sexy and desirable and lustfully pursued because of it. And I’m not a guy who has ever been without a date when he wanted one.
I wonder about asking this question of women, too. How many of them use the powders and potions and yet feel no more beautiful when they are done? When the men in their lives say, “My God, you are beautiful!” how many of them stop and actually let themselves feel it?
I’m guessing almost none. And if THAT doesn’t break your heart; then you damn well need a transplant.
I don’t think it’s a man or woman issue. It’s a cultural issue that we only think we are good enough if we are the best, and there is always someone who is more…something. I’ve always told my sons that I love them, but I’ve recently begun telling them they are beautiful, too. Because you know what? If you can look at a four year old boy squatting over a bug and watching him cry in exultant glee at its struggles and not think it’s beautiful…then you don’t have a heart to transplant.
This is a very interesting article. I’ve run into some issues in this area. I’m an attractive woman in my 30s. I can admit this. I work at being attractive. I grew up feeling like an ugly duckling and thought that all my wishes would come true if I was pretty (ha!!). I look in the mirror and see a beautiful woman. A lot of men look at me that way too. Part of that definitely comes from finally knowing who I am and being comfortable with myself, and loving the company I keep when I’m all alone. At the same time, I’ve always had high standards when it came to my intelligence, but that was always the case whether I felt I was pretty or not. Basically, I agree with the statement, “…beauty is seen as the cost of entry,” even though I see it as unfair. I believe that goes for men as well. Especially now adays, when women are financially self-sufficient and the stigma of being an older single woman is not really there anymore (compared to 30-plus years ago). Today, women pursue men they are attracted to physically. That’s been my first requirement when seeking a date. My current boyfriend is very attractive physically, at least to me. That’s how I noticed him. He finds me very attractive and loves to tell me so in a variety of ways. This is my issue… I’m very glad he finds me attractive. Love it, in fact. But he so rarely tells me about the intangibles that he finds attractive too. To me, physical attractiveness alone is only good for a romp in the bed. But the attractiveness needs to run deeper. And while I do love the flattery, I need more because otherwise it all seems so superficial. My looks are what I present to the world, whether I know people or not. Who I am is so much more and after awhile, I’d love to hear about the other things that a man finds attractive about me. My laugh? My stubbornness? My …. whatever. There could be so many things that I haven’t even thought of. And vice versa. I love so much about him. The looks were what drew me to him, but what made me decide to stay are so much more than what he looks like. Anyway… the thing is, I decided before I even met my boyfriend that I was attractive. I was and am happy with my looks, with or without his flattery. What I need is for him to tell me he loves for all my quirks and idosyncracies that only he gets to know about intimately. Looks won’t last.
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Not to argue, but if I’d let great beauty be my main standard, I’d have been stuck with some truly horrible women. “Face” people, as they used to say, really are superficial most of the time, and materialistic. I think great beauty is pretty much a role that one can manufacture, and we all know the reason people adopt it. I’ve probably been with two knockout women in my life, but they were not very aware of this. Most of the people I’ve been with have been attractive, and I think I am.
“Women would rather be dead than seen as not beautiful.
Sometimes I talk to my girlfriends about aging. After a while, I noticed a pattern—without any hesitation, they all said, “Oh, no, I don’t want to get old. No, thanks, I’d rather be dead.” So then I started asking the question farther and wider, and I got pretty much a unanimous verdict. Women would rather die early than get old enough so they weren’t beautiful any more. Even women who didn’t necessary believe that for themselves fully understand the sentiment.”
I’m sorry, but where on earth did this idea come from and who were the women you asked? I know a lot of women who are quite happy being alive, and who are not beautiful and who know they are not beautiful, and I know attractive women who look forward to aging and being mothers and grandmothers and losing their tight skin and curves and escaping body expectations. I personally do not see death as a big deal, but I’d rather age with my husband and raise children and grandchildren together, all the while becoming less attractive with age, than die early and miss out on all that but still look young and pretty.