Is women’s obsession with beauty because of an intense desire to be attractive to men? And if so, is it a men’s issue?
Mark D. White wrote a post today that gives an honest look at a guy struggling to understand a woman’s relationship to beauty, and how he, as a guy, should talk to her about it. Compliment her looks? Her intelligence? But why—when the woman he was dating was so smart, successful, creative—why did she seem to place such value in being complimented on her looks above all?
Commenter Trev, below, actually helped me articulate my argument, and that is this: Women are not honest about how important being attractive to the opposite sex is. And that causes a breakdown in communication between men and women. And that’s why it’s worth discussing.
I cannot comment about what men think. I don’t even want to over-generalize and pretend to know what all women think. But this topic is a source of much fascination to me (not to mention angst), and so I would like to tell you my worldview. In fact, my observations come from what can only be described as an obsession.
Women would rather be dead than seen as not beautiful.
Sometimes I talk to my girlfriends about aging. After a while, I noticed a pattern—without any hesitation, they all said, “Oh, no, I don’t want to get old. No, thanks, I’d rather be dead.” So then I started asking the question farther and wider, and I got pretty much a unanimous verdict. Women would rather die early than get old enough so they weren’t beautiful any more. Even women who didn’t necessary believe that for themselves fully understand the sentiment.
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I am not being critical of men here, not in the least. It is not wrong to want beauty in one’s life—however you define that, wherever you find it. But if men are wondering why it’s difficult to get the conversation around beauty right when talking to women—this is how I see it.
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The other example of “death before beauty” is eating disorders. The experience I have found is that almost every woman who has an eating disorder has it because she has an unnatural fear of being seen as unattractive by the opposite sex. That would be about an estimated 65 percent of the female population. In fact, some studies show the mortality rate associated with anorexia nervosa is 12 times higher than the death rate associated with all causes of death for females 15-24 years old. The suicide rate of that age group with anorexia is 32 times the norm. The conclusion I draw is that women are so worried about being seen as unattractive by men that they can’t eat—even if it ultimately causes irreparable harm.
Brains may be important, but beauty is seen as the cost of entry.
Tom Matlack wrote what I thought was a very thoughtful piece a while back: “Women We Love for the Wrong Reasons.”
His point was that men loved women for much more than beauty: “Yes, good men love women. But we love women in all their complexity, for the things they do, for their intelligence, their wit, their athleticism, their creativity, their power, their force of personality.”
And yet, when this was cross-posted on Jezebel, Tom got lambasted for implying earlier in his post that women, as one commenter said “must be both beautiful AND smart. I mean, what if you’re ordinary looking and smart?” Many responded with a fair amount of vitrol, but some with humor: “Oh, need we be hot also? That takes a lot of time away from my intellectual activities. Plus, a lot of hot-making activities are pretty boring. Can’t it be enough that I’m clean?”
The anger from so many women was the implication that beauty was somehow a cost of entry to even be noticed. And in Mark’s piece, he reinforces that sentiment, “Like I said, a difficult line to walk, especially for men who respect and admire women for their brains and their beauty.”
Beauty gives women privileges they wouldn’t otherwise have.
Yesterday, one of our commenters on this post said, “If Tiger had have taken a golf club to his wife because she cheated would you be describing him as ‘super smart and beautiful?’ No, that would make him a criminal.”
I happen to agree.
Men rarely use the world “beautiful,” except when talking about women.
This was one of those things I noticed decades ago and kept looking for an example to disprove my theory. The only seeming exception was when men were talking about a “beautiful” play in sports.
But all the things that I, as a woman, think are beautiful—art, far-off galaxies, kindness, a street performance, a complex mathematical equation that makes me go “ah”, a thunderstorm, poetry, a strategic business plan, a hurricane lamp made from a coffee can with holes punched in it—none of those has ever brought about the word “beautiful” from a guys, certainly not with the awe-filled tone of voice that I hear when they talk about a beautiful woman.
Personally, as a woman, that puts enormous pressure on me—to be constantly worried that I am the only source of beauty other than the woman next to me who is (without a doubt) more beautiful than I am.
I am not being critical of men here, not in the least. It is not wrong to want beauty in one’s life—however you define that, wherever you find it. But if men are wondering why it’s difficult to get the conversation around beauty right when talking to women—this is how I see it. And maybe the way to have the conversation be so less charged with peril is for all of us to simply expand our vocabulary about what beautiful really is.
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Read Mark D. White’s article “Beauty or Brains: Which is More Important to Emphasize?” here.
About Lisa Hickey
“Women would rather be dead than seen as not beautiful”? Huh??? Speak for yourself and your obviously-shallow friends, but leave me (and most other women I know that are worth spending any time with) out of it please. So many women are obsessed with beauty because they’ve allowed themselves to be objectified and now equate their worth with their ability to acquire material wealth, instead of real wealth in the form of a healthy self-esteem and emotional maturity, not harmfully dependent on others. Possessing intelligence “gives women privileges they wouldn’t otherwise have” too, like, you know, gaining access to astrophysicists’ labs, or a chance at becoming a champion on Jeopardy! But I guess I’m supposed to prefer the privilege of being able to wield a golf club in anger? Sorry, this article doesn’t help with encouraging healthy debate, it just serves to further polarize those of us who don’t fit the stereotypes that dictate what attractive women are supposed feel, think and be motivated by.
For the record, the reasons these conversations came up is because I want to live to be 110 years old, and I’m quite joyous in my desire to live that long. But I noticed in conversations about increasing lifespans that I couldn’t find a single female taker to agree to come along for the ride. And no one came out and said it overtly — not at first — which is why part of my premise here is that women aren’t being completely honest. Even when assured that people who live that long usually stay quite active til the end, even when I said well, what if you were healthy well past 100 — almost everyone did the math and said they wouldn’t want to be old for “that long”. Well, guess what, once your past 70 or 80, the option is to be old or be dead. And the reason women didn’t want to be that old is because they felt they would be marginalized. And a good part of that marginalization would be based on their looks.
These are people who are thoughtful, intelligent, who may or may not be considered traditionally attractive. And so I was truly horrified that *any* women would feel that way. How many women is enough to make it a problem? 10% 20% 50%?
Bravo for you for not feeling that way. I am with you. And I’m all for healthy self-esteem and emotional maturity — I’ve spent a lifetime trying to get there. But I believe it’s harder to get there *if we don’t acknowledge it’s a problem.*
If you would like to write an article that *does* encourage healthy debate, please do so — submissions are open on this site.
Thanks for acknowledging my rant (and thanks for the invitation to submit – unfortunately I’m not sure I’m capable of writing an article on this subject, at least not right now – aside from the obvious negative representations in the media, I don’t know really know any women on the other side of my perspective to make it balanced). But thanks.
At 80, everybody is marginalized. Men and women. Generally, they are no longer working and even their grandchildren are pretty much grown. So what do you do? You date 80 year old men. (I hear seniors really get around by the way). You go have coffee with your girlfriends. You visit with the great-grandkids. You garden. You bake. You read books. You join the band at the senior center. Heavens! Was this whole article about women afraid that when they’re 80 the only people who will be interested in fucking them are other 80 year olds? Really?? This is the problem we’re supposed to acknowledge?
The stock market is doing wild and crazy things. Our government can’t balance the budget without threatening the entire world’s economy first. Unemployment is above 9%. Teachers are being laid off (thus impacting the education of our children)…and you want me to be concerned about the concerns women have about their sex lives 20, 30, and 40 years into the future. We’re not even asking women who are currently 80 years old how they feel about their lives and their beauty we’re gonna have a “healthy debate” about the projected worries of women about their beauty and sexual prospects 30-40 years from now. You have got to be fucking kidding me!
I’m sorry but this is not a problem worthy of debate. Why? Because the women who make it to 80 and above will be able to handle the situation just like every other 80 year old woman I’ve ever met (whose mind is intact, that is).
I would agree about life at 80. At 80 there will still be men who would like to be with you. The real question is whether they are the men you want to be with. I’m guessing there are 80-year old women mourning the “loss” of their youthful looks, but I suspect generally people in their 80′s have other priorities.
I’m guessing there are a lot of men like me who are regularly bewildered and frustrated by hearing women we love, women we think are beautiful, constantly put themselves down or express constant insecurity about their looks. It can be a very frustrating disconnect between what a man sees about her looks and what she sees about her looks. It sometimes feels futile, because the reassurance seems to fall on deaf ears, as if the listener has already decided and just won’t hear it. It’s disheartening to repeat a message in all kinds of ways and just not have the woman you love believe you.
It’s like talking to someone who sees a mirage. How can that person not see what I see?
(It reminds me of that wrinkle cream you can buy to fight the tiny wrinkles you can’t even see. Umm, if you can’t see any, than what exactly are you chasing?)
If there is this big patriarchal system running society, this is one of those ways that it actually makes men’s lives more difficult, not easier. Exhausting men with demands for reassurance about one’s looks is not all that great for men, really. This is a man’s issue, not just in terms of caring about the lives of people we love, but also, frankly, it’s in men’s own self-interest to find a way to reduce these insecurities. Even if you can’t muster much sympathy, in my experience women who aremore secure in their attractiveness are more present, and sexually more confident, which is to men’s benefit as well as women’s.
How do we do that when no one listens? I’d love to hear some ideas.
LOL LOL LOL
Great response!
Thanks for recognizing the problem and actually wanting to create change.
I do believe there is something in the idea of talking about “attractiveness” but removing the vocabulary of physical beauty from that.
For example, I dated a guy once and part of our ritual was doing crossword puzzles together. And then having wild sex right afterwards. And — it sounds kind of humorous, but — what better way to let me know that it was my *mind* he found attractive and sexy.
Or — not being afraid to love under any circumstance. Not being afraid that the word “love” is going to have some hidden agenda that implies commitment. Not just in sexual relationships, in any relationships.
Or — like I said in the post –getting the conversation around “beautiful” to be around things other than women. Beautiful being things you both love. Beautiful being things you experience together. Getting beauty to mean things outside of her.
What all of those things have in common is trying to change the vocabulary as people connect and interact with each other. I’m not about to change the entire way that the media portrays women (and, quite frankly, men, although god knows we’re trying.) But one by one, interaction by interaction — yeah, we can do that.
Conversations like this, no matter how angry people get, no matter how much people disagree — are a starting point to understanding the viewpoints that aren’t your own.
And we’re here to keep talking.
thanks.
great response Lisa
I’m beautiful inside and out, and I have my own personal commitment to vanity and intellect. This is a personal choice I am not ashamed of. I can’t help but feel that any angry commentors feel all shook up because it strikes something in one’s issues with their selves. I think those anger issues should be addressed because they are a threat to health and block good things to happen for one self in may areas. I think my beauty just gets better with age as well.
Well, I’ll throw in a perspective from the other side of the coin: I’m a woman with healthy self esteem. I’m not classically beautiful, not ugly either. I could invest a whole lot of time and energy worrying about “enhancing” my image, and if/when I do that I can look pretty good. But it’s just not a priority for me. I also never minded the idea of getting older, don’t have a problem being attracted to older guys, etc.
And hey, guess what? I’m 49 and still single. Having a life partner is really important to me, but I’ve not found one (and no, I don’t care if the guy is rich, or tall, or looks like Brad Pitt. I do have standards, but they’re more related to character and intelligence and empathy and substantial stuff that I do have to offer in return). I’m not socially awkward. I have a wonderful circle of *friends*, many of them male. They’re all married to women who are a lot more physically attractive than I am. I’m their best buddy or their sister, not romantic relationship material. And I know quite a few other lovely women my age who are in the same boat.
So what am I supposed to conclude from this, except that women are absolutely correct to be so insecure about their looks? At the end of the day, no matter how many other good qualities a woman has, most guys are going to pick whoever’s the most attractive. And a woman who doesn’t invest a whole lot in clothes, makeup, hair styling and all the other goodies to make herself more attractive simply isn’t going to get noticed, even by guys who purport to like women without all those things (what they generally really mean is that they like women who don’t look like they’ve invested a lot in those things).
None of this has made me say I’d rather be dead than get old, or that I’m going to suddenly change my ways and become obsessed with beauty. It’s a bit late for that, and I’d never be able to do it convincingly even if I wanted to. But in the past 10 years or so I’ve certainly come to understand, in a way that I didn’t before, why so many women feel that way.
I realize this probably isn’t that helpful as as far as advising you what you (men) can do about it. Maybe just look a little more closely at the women you hadn’t noticed before, I don’t know. I find that most of the men I end up finding the most attractive are not the first ones I noticed or found attractive. They tend to be the ones who are more secure with themselves and aren’t so worried about impressing everyone else. As long as insecurity is rewarded with attention and being secure with oneself is ignored, it kinda creates a catch 22 doesn’t it?
I’m perplexed by your views given your self-confessed obsession with the area. I’m now a 35 yr old woman, however I was a teenager when I first became aware of the lush girliness that goes on behind closed doors when girls are hanging out together, going to spas, simply dressing up to have dinner together at a girlfriends house. Wanting to be beautiful (however each of us view it) is generally an intrinsic part of being a woman but I wholeheartedly disagree with it being related to attracting the male gaze. One only needs to read Geraldine Brooks’ amazing book based on her own experiences in Muslim countries, ‘Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women’ (which I highly recommend to EVERYONE!) to understand that women dress for each other just as much – if not more – than they do for men. One of my favourite examples in the book is the author attending a women only sporting event so they therefore didn’t wear their burqas – and were all dressed up to the nines in mini skirts, heels etc for the function that evening. I lived with a woman who worked in a pottery studio. She often didn’t see anyone throughout her days in the studio, however she’d always apply lipstick in the morning before trudging out to the backyard studio to work her passion. She said it made her feel ‘ready for the day’ as it made her feel good about herself and therefore her outlook and her day in general. This again has nothing to do with males, but her own view of what was beautiful – for herself. There are countless examples of this, and I myself am no exception.
I also fail to identify with the paragraph on death-before-age. Particularly the ‘research’ aspects of it. many of my friends as well as myself have often discussed being older and how much wiser we’d be, how wonderful it would be to be a grandmother. To wear crazy vintage clothes and wild hats and put pink rinses in our hair. To witness the world as it hurtles from one major tranformation to the next. To be part of a slower world where work is no longer filling your days and having the time to really delve into community work. It truly is a wonder to imagine. I adore seeing an elderly couple holding hands and always aspire to be that little old lady still lovingly holding her partner’s hand. And so do many of my friends. Your ‘research’ made me shudder and glad that’s not my friend base, sorry!
The other point I wished to bring up is men not using the word ‘beautiful’. I found this odd as I know a number of men who have used the term in many contexts. I have also just finished watching a wonderful documentary series on the physics of the universe called ‘Wonders of the Universe’ – where the male professor consistently uses the word beautiful to describe almost everything he discusses! So I really do fail to see that this article is based on any real ‘research’ other than a very narrow base of robotic women that are exposed to too much mainstream print and tv media!
I am truly glad that my experience is not that of everyone’s. Especially the number of comments about how people are looking forward to aging — that is wonderful. And beautiful. Thanks for sharing your stories.
Yeah, I don’t get the whole “girl bonding over dressing up and going to spas” thing either. It’s just not something I can relate to. I don’t enjoy doing any of that, and like I said in my post above, it does seem to affect my ability to attract men. I feel like as much as men say they don’t “get” women’s obsessions with that stuff, there’s a comfort zone there for them. A woman who doesn’t do these things is somehow less feminine and more “one of the guys”. Which is a shame because I have more actual things in common with my male friends, things that we like to do together, than many of them have with their wives/girlfriends/etc.
I do know plenty of men who use “beautiful” in other contexts. I tend to like artsy types of men who are comfortable using those terms.
“Personally, as a woman, that puts enormous pressure on me—to be constantly worried that I am the only source of beauty other than the woman next to me who is (without a doubt) more beautiful than I am.”
Yeah, I’m with you there. The pressure is huge. Most media images use the female form more then they use the male form. Billions upon billoins of photoshopped images come to us regularly. I don’t think most guys understand all the messages women get about their worth being tied to their looks. From Cosmo, to cosmetic commericals, to male entertainment. And your husband or boyfriend can love you, but if his head turns for the 21 year old girl walking by, those messages society send us about female worth are only reinforced. The key is getting men and women to value women for more then just beauty, not just intellectually give it lipservice. Really practice what we preech.
I’ll just make a quick comment on frustration men might feel about making positive comments to their mate that get shot down. I can only say for me that positve comments from my guy are really really important. Even if I don’t always feel the way he telling me I am. But don’t just say something to your partner because you think that’s what she wants to hear. If you are going to pay her a compliment, you got to make it really sincere. So that she stops and notices the sincerity in it. And don’t make her fish for her own compliments. Give them to her freely. They won’t cost you any money. Just like there are things women should do that make men feel respected in their masculinity, the same is true for women.
“And maybe the way to have the conversation be so less charged with peril is for all of us to simply expand our vocabulary about what beautiful really is.”
I relate to your angst. In fact, the “less charged with peril” part of the above sentence was the imperative behind my naming my company Fat Happy Island. It’s where my friends and I are all going to move, once we give up our fantasy of being card-carrying beauties all our life. LOL!
No more shaving our legs, no more drill sargents barking at us to go faster in Spin classes, no more excruciating bikini waxes, no more denying ourselves dessert, no more nasty, tight Spanx garments, or ankle-breaking high heels. And definitely no more competing or objectifying ourselves and each other.
Thanks for the topic, Lisa and even more so for leading with your vulnerability while writing this article. To expand vocabulary about what beautiful really is…..
Your willingness to expose your raw fears around this charged subject strikes me as a beautiful thing. Your pioneering activism that seeks to foster understanding between the genders on this site is a thing of beauty, as well. Brava!!!
I guess I don’t understand. Maybe it’s because I live amongst a bunch of fairly radical, sex-positive hippies. I don’t know. A good number of the women I spend time with don’t shave their legs (or their underarms), don’t spend time in Spin classes (they do love their yoga though), don’t deny themselves dessert (although some are vegan or only eat raw food), don’t wear Spanx (heck, bras are pretty optional), and don’t wear high heels. I don’t notice much competition between us either. Maybe that’s because we’re generally polyamorous and/or we’re an incestuous group of people who have all ended up sleeping with each other regardless of gender at some point or another.
Maybe I’m not getting the point of this article or this conversation because I already live on Fat Happy Island. I don’t spend much time worrying about mainstream culture because I made my choice to live my life according to my values regardless of what the mainstream thinks or does.
Hi Jeni, it sounds like you are very well-balanced about these things, but your personal experience may not be the same as that of many,or most, other women. Most women aren’t radical sex positive polyamorous hippies — most of us lead fairly conventional lives worrying about fairly conventional things. Maybe your way of life would be the solution or maybe not; it could be you are just unusually centered.
I am not certain my way of life is the solution either. I think aspects of it might be. Five years ago I was a suburban, stay-at-home mother leading a very conventional life. A lot has changed for me since my divorce. I’ve had to question a lot of aspects of my life. The truth is, every time I ask my heart what it wants, the further away from convention I go. At first, I struggled with it considerably, now I realize I am happier I have ever been. I seek to free myself from the prisons I make for myself as much as possible because, for me, that’s where happiness lies.
I am sex-positive and polyamorous but I am not a hippie. My radicalism is only limited to certain topics.
I guess I view the serious questioning of ourselves as closer to the answer than anything else. I mean, why do we shave our legs if we don’t really want to do so? What’s going to happen if we don’t? What will happen if we don’t wear Spanx? What will happen if we stop going to Spin classes we don’t enjoy?
Maybe we’ll feel more comfortable in our bodies and with ourselves. Maybe we’ll spend more time loving ourselves. I suspect that most of the men around us will respond to that and be even more attracted to us than they were before. I could be wrong though…I’ve been wrong before.
Hi Jeni-
Thanks for finding yourself in a Fat Happy Island frame of mind these days. Woo hoo!
The answer to your provocative questions about “what would happen if she didn’t shave her legs?”, etc. will depend not just on every woman, but on where she is, timeline-wise, in her life. Right? Lisa, I believe, is trying to get AT those very questions by posting this article for us to explore just that.
For example, if a woman just lost her husband because he postured like a cool hippie dude who couldn’t care less if she shaved her legs, but then ran off with a model, the wife might reactively swing out in the opposite direction of “not shaving her legs” for awhile.
That seems natural and obvious enough, I think. No one would question her.
Give her a little time, and she might get past what a jerk and hypocrite he was, and then her pendulum might come to rest in the middleground more. Then it might sound like “I actually LIKE the feel of smooth legs on myself. Think I’ll keep shaving and stop capitulating to what men in my life want so I can hear my own desires more clearly”. Or any number of other responses.
Throw in her age, the beliefs she carries over from her ethnic background, her education or lack of it…and you get quite the kaleidoscopic effect in terms of varied responses to, “What if stops shaving her legs?”
That’s my contribution here…..that we throw in the “where is this person AT in their life right now that has her—–(fill in the blank)”
Thanks for asking some questions that help further this dialogue, Jeni!
I agree, Lilli, and thanks for jumping in. You bring up a good point — maybe if we had more discussions of beauty as we age — discussions without fear, inviting men into the conversation — that we as women would feel more relaxed about it.
Thank you Lili Bee for your response. I think I am starting to understand what you and Lisa are trying to say.
*sigh*
The thing is, the women in my life have done more damage to me than the men ever did. We can say that this occurred because we live in a patriarchal society. Fine. That does not change the fact that women cause each other far more grief than men do in this society. Until we, as women, stop doing that to each other, nothing will change. Telling the men in our lives that it sucks, etc. isn’t all that helpful. My experience is that when women start blaming the men for this kind of thing it is because they don’t want to own up to the things they do to each other to keep everyone as miserable as they are.
And, for the record, I left my marriage. I was the one who lied in my marriage. Yes, he made some asshole moves over the 17 years we were in a relationship. So did I. But the truth is, we married young and ended up wanting very different things. Life is rarely as black-and-white as the example you mentioned. I don’t care what anyone says, once you’ve been in a relationship long enough it doesn’t matter who leaves who or who is the ‘guilty’ party. Both of the people in the relationship contributed towards its demise.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Jeni…..BTW, the situation I presented was purposely simplified in the interest of brevity. Not a big fan on the “mile-long” comments
But in any event, it’s not that any of these situations are black and white; not your divorce or the reasons for it, not the hypothetical woman in the example I gave, nor her reactions., not the abuses at the hands of the women in your life…
I think we both agree that life is fairly complex to say the least. I love Lisa’s idea of having the beauty conversation be an open conversation for everyone (male & female) to join into, and it’s probably wise for all of us to stay out of the blame game in order to get anywhere. Again, thanks for your thoughts, here….
Oh, and I consider this one of my theme songs…of course, my kids get embarrassed when I sing it in the car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5U-YT-mRmI
Hah! Love that! thanks!
Lisa, thanks for this thoughtful piece. Being married for a second time, I have seen two sides of this “beauty question”. My first wife had an intellectual argument with the pressure to be beautiful as a woman, but she spent a lot of time thinking about and worrying about her looks. I think that she felt some sort of betrayal to her feminist impulses every time she stood before the mirror making sure her dress looked ok and that her makeup was applied properly. And she held “beauty queens” in utter disdain. My current wife loves to be beautiful – likes beautiful things – and does not mind that men think she’s beautiful. She worries about aging well and holding onto her beauty as she ages. But I don’t think this is just a woman’s issue. I know a lot of guys who worry as much about their looks as do women. The attention to beauty – and the pressure to be attractive – moves along a continuum that both men and women find themselves on. And as with everything in life, it’s how we manage our position on that continuum that really matters. There are beautiful people, there are attractive people, there are not-so-attractive people, and there are some who are simply not attractive at all. My question, though, it this: Don’t you think that beauty and attraction has more than a physical dimension? Don’t you know people, women and men, who would never win a beauty contest, but who are very attractive to be around? Ultimately, that is what matters – at least for me.
Roger, thanks for your very thoughtful, and, dare I say it — beautiful — response. I love the point of difference in your two wives. And yes — I without a doubt agree that beauty and attractiveness go beyond the physical. But why then don’t we ever talk about it that way? Do you really think that if a really not so physically attractive woman walked into a roomful of people, and wowed them with her sense of humor and intelligence — do you think that a single person would say “Wow, she was beautiful!”. “Yeah, attractive as hell!” “Sexxxxxy.” Maybe I’m hanging out in the wrong rooms, but I just don’t ever see that happen.
And that was part of my point — I think we need to change the vocabulary around how we talk about beauty.
I hear you, Lisa, but why would a woman choose “beautiful” over “sexy” or even “attractive”? There are not a lot of truly beautiful people – but there are a lot of attractive people and a lot of sexy people. There are some beautiful people who aren’t all that attractive to me. And there are sexy people, who aren’t classically beautiful. And ultimately, though it is horribly cliche to say it, “beauty does rest in the eye of the beholder.” Oh, and by the way, I’m one of those guys who uses the word beautiful a lot – and not just as an adjective for women. When someone does a good job on something, my one word response is: beautiful. When a see a sunset, it’s: beautiful. When I solve a problem it’s: beautiful. So, I guess this whole conversation about beauty has me a little puzzled to begin with.
The average woman looks are “average.” There’s no getting around the fact that relatively few women (or men) can be described as truly “beautiful” in the eyes of most people. However, Roger makes an excellent point in noting that one’s appearance can be described as sexy, cute, attractive or other positive adjectives. In my opinion, there are way more sexy women than beautiful ones. Personally, I prefer sexy and attractive over beautiful but not especially sexy.
h ttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6727710.ece
Time reports on how “women are getting more beautiful”.
”
Over generations, the scientists argue, this has led to women becoming steadily more aesthetically pleasing, a “beauty race” that is still on.”
Lets examine this beauty ideal for women introduced by the ‘new women’(another name for feminists back then) of the late19th century. which first sparked into life with the flappers of the 1920s, and then has held sway since the 1970s.
what are the current characteristics of a beautiful woman – lean legs, small bum, narrow hips, prominent jaw, prominent cheekbones, eyebrows shaped and defined to appear prominent.
(Ive not seen studies verifying that if men really have longer eyelashes than women)
These are the features of this beauty ideal which in that study men and women find more beautiful.
So why is it that so few women have these features and so many men do. why do women have to starve themselves to get lean legs, small bums, narrow hips. why do they have to paint on the appearance of prominent cheekbones, and shape their eyebrows to appear more prominent.
If men have been selecting for these features then most women would have these features – they do not.
The study also, does not take into account the radical change in what a beautiful woman is supposed to look like.
In the previous cultures around the world ive looked at, i see repeated themes in the literature and art, of soft features being venerated in women, not the harder features of a man. The only major high culture apart from ours that appears to have preferred masculine femininity as THE femininity appears to be the Romans. look at the face of the goddess of beauty venus.
Google the most famous gibson girl ‘Camille Clifford thefullwiki’
to see what the general beauty ideal around the world was previously. for another example, look at disney’s 1937 drawings of ‘snow white’ (and all of her implied virtuousness). Now compare the gibson girl and snow white to the current beauty queens like jerry hall, cindy crawford, kate moss.
Whats happened is over the last 100yrs, the markers of masculinity have been absorbed into het femininity
(in ethnicities where the female has prominent jaws and/or cheekbones and/or eyebrow ridges. The men have even more prominent jaws, cheekbones, ridges).
In my 20s i simply could not see what the ancient greeks were talking about when they said men were more beautiful than women. but now i see it clearly now that im 36 and out of the ‘breeding season’. Now that the machinery, that wiring is switched off. That drugs men attracted to women, to make them believe women are the most beautiful beings in all of creation. The machinery that makes young men giddy-drunk upon looking at the image of a woman – whats the betting that the indian peacock thinks the peahen is more beautiful, for the same reasons. Now the machinery is off, and i understand the reasons for the indifference to women i observed in middle-aged men when i was a young man. I see clearly what the ancient greeks were talking about.
Compare a man and woman of similar appearance, i believe the man’s face to be more beautiful – as it is more defined. (if beauty is defined as having prominent features. if beauty is defined as having soft features, then women are more beautiful)
and if the man is wearing the train of his masculinity – his beard, then his beauty increases.
Now the difference in beauty between men and women isnt as great as the peacock and the peahen. Sometimes i think it is greater than the difference between the lioness and the lion with his mane, other times i think the difference is lesser than that
Far from being ‘aesthetically unappealing as their caveman ancestors.‘, I believe Men are the ‘beauty’ of this species as with other species, where the male is visibly different to the female.
And as with indian peacock and the peahen, it is only a weak to moderate attractor of females.
(I’ll make mistakes it’s not my first language)
Society.
We live in a patriarcal one, so it sounds natural that it’s a woman that have to wear a specific make up and specific clothes.
In a matriarcal one like Fulani’s, men are expected to take good care of their looks for the annual dance where women will choose them as husband. They more think of their looks, than women themselves. In Touareg’s, even though muslims tried to islamize them, their ancient matriarcal ways are still there, it’s men who wear the veil.
Again, that’s society that makes you feel like wearing certain type of clothes and make up.
I disagree.
global ‘modern’ clothing is based on european clothing, and if one looks at feminists would call euro patriarchial history it was men who first wore 1. short dresses(their dresses rose so high thecodpiece was invented) 2. hosiery (tights, stockings and suspenders, leggings) originated in asia 3. high heels also from asia (the heel traps around the stirrup, allowing warriors to ride and kill better)
Tuareg men and women wear face covering to protect against sandwinds, as they cross the sahara
No. You summed up different make up and clothes, but the exterior idea of what i said is, men in a matriarcal society make beauty a more important matter, as for women in a patriarchal one. Full stop.
Hosery has never been feminine anyway; only in a patriarcal society like European one.Same for high heels, short dresses. Never feminine, only in the mouth of a man, living in a patriarcal society.
The thing is if women take so much importance in codes of feminity, summed up by men, it is because it is a patriarchal one..
If in a matriarchal society women says ‘ a man is beautiful with white eye balls, and a certain tone of skin, men will find anything in nature, to achieve it ; this is a concrete example of my ethny, the Fulanis.
PS : And for Tuaregs, when they travel they, obviously, protect themselves…..
In the city, they’re the one wearing the veil. It’s just like that.
What you call ‘modern’ clothes just doesn’t exist, it is EUROPEAN clothes industrialized everywhere in the world.
The assumption that girnot rewls have eating disorders due to fears about receiving male attention is bollocks. If you look at anorexia , it is a disease which feeds off perfectionism and warped internalised ideas about control in one’s life. Often a sufferer uses starvation as a way to punish themselves for not meeting exacting standards or to demonstrate enormous self- discipline. These have nothing to do being no longer ogled at , it is to do with using physicals means to adress or alleviate psychological conflict.
soory I mean to put ‘girls ‘ in the first sentence. I’m partially sighted so at least I have an excuse !
The things I do out of vanity:
-I use moisturizer.
-I use eye cream.
-I use acne medication.
-I occasionally wear high heels.
-I shave my armpits.
-I don’t wear a bathing suit to the beach because I have scar tissue on my bottom and upper thigh area.
-I don’t tuck my hair behind my ears because I have one physically deformed, surgically constructed ear.
-I stopped smiling in photos. I have a wide, flat nose that stretches with my face when I smile.
I always thought I didn’t care about what other people thought about me. But I realized if that were true, I’d be doing the exact opposite of everything on that list.
For the past few years, the pursuance of physical beauty is an aspect of my life that I’ve been seriously re-evaluating. And after a lot of thought, I realized I have a fear of not being accepted. Of being shunned. Of being marginalized.
Along with that fear, I also felt frustration in failing to maintain a “beauty regimen” and hopelessness in knowing how futile the whole effort was.
Which is why I’m setting a new goal for myself. To shed every insecurity I have about my body.
I’ve begun by reminding myself to smile in my pictures (with teeth!). I signed up for swimming lessons, meaning I’m in a bathing suit more often. And overall, I focus on being healthy rather looking “beautiful.” I hope that along the way, I’ll achieve clarity about what’s important in my life.
Uh, depends on WHY you do the things you do, really.
1) Dry skin is painful, and less healthy. If this has almost no impact on why you use moisturizer, but instead because “youthful” skin is considered more beautiful, then yeah, you are doing it for the wrong reason. I have seen old women with tons of wrinkles, yet their skin still do not look dry, and that still looks beautiful. The wrinkles are not bad, mistreated skin is.
) Seriously though, scars are cool. Someone who has gone through life without any scars whatsoever seem more walled in, and it is good you stopped letting it prevent you from wearing whatever is comfortable.
2) See 1. Laugh wrinkles are especially attractive at the eyes.
3) See 1. Acne is definitely painful! At least for me.
4) High heels have their advantages and disadvantages, and it IS possible to wear them just for the fun of the different height – the same way you can walk around in plateu shoes or stilts – rather than because “oh noes must look purrty and byootiful to teh menz”
5) I shave/trim my armpits too, and it has nothing to do with beauty, only function. Having more hair at an easily sweaty area requires more maintenance than less hair, as well as that I personally sweat more without good reason when I have more hair there. Oddly enough for me rather than aiding cooling having hair against the skin there induces more sweat than hot skin. Not that appropriate sweating is bad – I like working up a sweat, it is a good sign that your body has worked so hard it has to start resorting to its cooling systems.
6) Scars are hot, shows you’ve lived and had some life experience. (Hot? Err, I mean… *coughhackcough*
7) See 6. You might as well adorn the ear or ears, rather than covering one up. It is a lot more comfortable.
8) Smiles can be replaced with awesome expressions instead. Like a playful, confident “You wish you were even just half as awesome as me”. You do not have to smile in photos – in fact because of the way some people have their facial muscles attach conventional smiles do not come as naturally to them. But to avoid smiling out of vanity rather than because it feeling artificial is sad indeed, good thing you quit!
The point of the lengthy above is that you do not need to stop doing the things you do, just focus on the WHY and stop doing the items that are not useful. It is very pleasing that you have begun to make your life even better, out of a “yay, the more people that are doing better the better the society” kind of reason.
I would add that our society has a really weird views of wrinkles or lines in the skin. We treat them like they’re medical problems, even calling them “damaged skin,” as if that’s something that has to be corrected. Aging may come with medical problems, but aging is not a medical problem in itself. Gray hair isn’t damaged hair that needs medical intervention, so why should wrinkles? These wrinkle things are so bad that instead of showcasing them we inject poison into our faces in order to paralyze our muscles. That is some twisted, effed-up view of aging.
In fact, I suspect that medical science, if it hasn’t already, is going to discover that wrinkles actually have some kind of biological function.
i really love this article
I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t care about how they look, so I have to say that the comments that say “I don’t get it” don’t really seem to jive with me. Yes, to speak of anorexia and the preference of dying over aging may be extreme examples, but this is a very real and life-long issue for a lot of women. Myself, I’m confident, independent, and self-sufficient (even self-employed), and I have always enjoyed nice compliments about my looks, so I don’t think there’s really an issue there, even though I look at my late 30′s emerging lines on my face with disdain. And I’ve never gone a day since adolescence that I haven’t worried about my weight (which is average)- wanting to be better, always wanting to lose weight – and if there is some way I can save my daughter from that misery I would give anything – anything!!! I do what I can to promote a positive self image, all of the right things, but I can’t save her from society and how we put perfect women on a pedestal. It’s really a sad state if you ask me.
I’m not sure it’s a question of being accepted – I think it has more to do with not being invisible – at any age. We live in a crowded world – and the only way not to feel like just one more ant is to be seen by other people. And it’s a fact that so-called beautiful people are ‘seen’ more than those with less attractive faces. However, a smile can make a big difference in this regard. My 91 year-old mother (still wishing she was better looking) makes it a game to smile at people in the street and see how many people smile back. Not a bad game, at that.
I’ve noticed that men use the word “beautiful” rather arbitrarily when it comes to women. A”beautiful” play in sports is pretty objective – any spectator would likely agree with what the man saw. However, when it comes to women “beautiful” can be really subjective and also men most often say it to prove to other guys that they are heterosexual. A “beautiful” woman (as defined by Proctor and Gamble, Vogue or Playboy) is a useless entity if she wants nothing to do with the man admiring her, he’ll suddenly find a litany of insults to describe her then. Rich men want model-worthy looks to prove their success – the woman has to match the sports car, the penthouse, whatever, kind of like a pedigree or designer dog. Is it healthy to aspire to be that object?
Is it men who make women obsess about their appearance? Is it other women who make us feel bad? Interesting question, but not the whole story anyway. To paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt: no one can make you feel ugly without your consent.
The perception of beauty is a moral test for us men, What a
“Man” finds to be beautiful is usually a reflection of his heart interiority.
I for one have seen that what fades with time is just usually the illusion that the flesh
Is what can constitute real love between two people.men and women are imature persons who are both at arms defeat and arms poised against each other.
One place this obsession begins is in the peer dynamics of adolescent girls. A lot of teen girls are terrified of being labeled “stuck up” or something similar. If you show that you are too confident or accepting of your appearance, others may try to tear you down or shun you. You will be branded as the one who thinks she’s better than other people. It’s easier to fit in if other girls hear you insult a few things about your own appearance, so they know that you’re one of them. But don’t go too far, or you’ll be too depressing.
And, when you hear other girls who are clearly attractive who feel bad about their appearance, you think, “wow, if she isn’t good-looking enough, then what hope do I have?” Being self-critical is one of those things that fashionable teens make fashionable.
“The experience I have found is that almost every woman who has an eating disorder has it because she has an unnatural fear of being seen as unattractive by the opposite sex.”
I have to strongly disagree with this statement. As someone who is now recovered from an eating disorder and does a lot of research and writing on this issue as well as conversing with others who are currently going through an E.D. or who have recovered like myself, rarely is the reason for one’s eating disorders simply to become ‘more attractive to men’.
An eating disorder is a manifestation of a deeper inner issue (or issues) that go much deeper than “I want to be seen as beautiful when walking down the street”. It can be a response to abuse or another form of trauma, or a way to express self-hatred that is also rooted in deeper issues than “I hate my thighs”. People (and I say ‘people’ because both women AND men struggles with EDs) turn to eating disorders for the same reasons they turn to drugs or alcohol or any other form of addiction – it is a way of coping that ends up becoming a deadly trap that is very difficult (though not impossible) to get out of.
I do really appreciate this article – but I couldn’t help but comment on the paragraph about eating disorders as I felt it was an unfair representation of what they truly are.
Don’t blame men for women’s desire to be beautiful, and their insecurities because of it. Other women have done far more damage to my self esteem. Now, almost 30, I have no close girlfriends unless my sister (and a couple of her friends who I’m friendly with, but not close) and my mother count. Haven’t since high school, my best friends are and always have been guys. I have female acquaintances, but no one I’d call close. I can actually have meaningful conversations with my guy friends – the girlfriends I have had in the past, it all ended up being gossip. Women are FAR more critical of each other and their looks than men are – I have read numerous times that women will go to more trouble to “dress up” for each other than for a man, and I really think that’s true. A lot of men don’t care for too much makeup. Women are the ones wearing orange lipstick because it’s “on trend” for the season. Men don’t care if your shoes are by Jimmy Choo or if they’re imitation faux leather pumps from Target. If your jeans cost $200 or $30. If you scrubbed and painted your own toenails or if you went to a salon spa and paid someone $60 to do it for you. Women do it for each other. The thing that makes people the most attractive? Confidence. You can tell when someone is truly comfortable in their own skin. It’s in the way they speak, the way they move, and yes, the way they look. They just feel “right” like they’re not trying to be something they’re not, by wearing clothing that doesn’t suit them, or having a “forced” personality that isn’t who they truly are – you can see it in their face. The best thing you can do for yourself is learn to love yourself the way you are. There’s nothing wrong with always trying to be better, but once you can appreciate the little things about yourself, it’s amazing how your view of the world changes.
I find this article sad and sexist. Yet once more it’s not women’s problem to take responsibility for themselves, but men’s duty to change and be what women want.
The correct answer to this problem is not to offload it onto men, it’s for women to accept their own need to be perceived as beautiful and stop belittling each other for caring about finding love and partnership. Humans are human; we all notice beauty and we all need love. Making the best of your chances in the mating game is common sense. It’s the profound insecurity attached to that process by women which is the issue here, and ultimately, insecurity can only be the problem of the people who experience it. Women are not insecure about their value to men, they are insecure about their value as compared to other women. Yes, women are unspeakably vicious in competition over beauty and the status it confers, and that likely contributes to the insecurity they feel. But men cannot put an end to a conflict they are not involved in, any more than Helen of Troy could put an end to the war that was started over her. It is for you, ladies, to grow a little yourselves, and see your viciousness for what it is.
I wonder if anyone else has noticed a paradox that comes up a lot when discussion women’s beauty and men’s reaction to it. I don’t think Lisa’s piece says anything like this, but it seems to come up a lot when talking about women trying to look good for men. The paradox goes like this:
On the one hand, men are super particular about the kind of women they are attracted to. We men have totally unrealistic expectations about how average women should look, and we hold to this standard even in the face of evidence to the contrary. We are brainwashed to be only interested in women found on magazine covers, on runways, and in porn movies. Virtually all women fall far short of our exacting standards.
On the other hand, we men are ravenous, indiscriminate sexual opportunists. We will hook up with anything with an average of 2.01 legs. We are easily distracted by almost any woman who walks by, and we frequently “cheat down,” i.e., cheat on our partners with people who are less attractive or generally have less to offer than our current partners. In fact, I would guess in most cases men who step out on their relationships don’t leave for someone younger and more attractive, but more likely a “lateral” move or worse. (Tiger Woods, bless his heart, seems like a great example of this. Elin was simply not gorgeous enough, so he cheated on her with more attractive women? Sorry, I don’t see that, no offense to those charming young ladies.) You can’t trust us to be alone with any woman even remotely attractive because we will be easily tempted.
So, we are too discriminate and not discriminate enough. We have high standards and are total opportunists.
If these are both true, how do we navigate all this?
That is a great point, Anonymous Male! (am I allowed to call you that?). I totally agree that’s a problem. We will write a post about that — or maybe even just use your comment as a conversation starter. thanks!