“Men need to strive for authenticity, not femininity.” Inside the conversation at The Good Men Project.
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Publisher’s note: Every Friday, we hold an hour-long conference call for any ongoing contributors to The Good Men Project. On each call, we talk about different aspects of the changing roles of men in the 21st century. These posts are a glimpse into what is said on the calls. More posts about the calls and the conversations in the FB Writers group can be found here. If you would like to join in the calls, please consider becoming a contributor [click here] or a Premium Member [click here].
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Lisa Hickey: I am going to talk about gender in a couple of different ways. I am going to tell 5 different anecdotes about men and women and pop culture and insights that have informed my view about gender. Some are fun, some are not.
1) I am actually the one who moderates comments on the GMP site. And the reason I do it even though it isn’t the job a typical CEO-type job is because previous comment moderators have all gotten burnt out. When you moderate comments you see a lot of great, insightful stuff, but you also see the worst of the trolls, the haters, the people who could use a more open and inclusive mind.
So this first thing that I want to read you is a comment that appeared on the site. I want to first give you a trigger warning. That’s how bad it is. And second I want to say that I actually sent this to the FBI tip line, that’s how REALLY bad it is.
Now, I realize that is at the most extreme of the ‘gender wars’ – but I start with this because it is still happening. And you can dismiss it as a joke, or a troll, or someone mentally ill—but it is, in fact, a hate crime and the fact that it is on the GMP site means that it is a threat by someone who was hoping that the men here will agree with him.
Here’s the comment:
2) Blockbuster Movies Fuel Gender War
Second, two movies opened this weekend:
Pitch Perfect 2 cost $29 million to make, brought in $70.3 million and the audience is 75% female
Mad Max: Fury Road cost $129 million to make, brought in $44 million and the was audience 70% male
The one thing that is interesting is the complaints in the “manosphere” which are angry because Charlize Theron is such a strong woman figure in a Mad Max movie. To some men who talk about men, this is a sign that feminists are taking over the world and ruining it.
“Is nothing sacred even the Mad Max movie”
A quote from the article written on Mad Max that is making the rounds:
“I was forced to accept reality. Fury Road was not going to be a movie made for men. It was going to be a feminist piece of propaganda posing as a guy flick…”
“Women and feminists in general have without a doubt, proven that they are dysfunctional by nature and cannot be trusted with anything. And this movie helps to prove it,” reads the most upvoted comment. “Always maintain your masculinity.”
3) Singing and empathy
This next concept is actually difficult for some people to understand, so bear with me.
There was a study done—it was a long time ago, and I don’t have the reference, but it was fascinating to me and it made a lot of things click.
And the study said—men and women think about singing, musicians they like and songs they like differently.
Women tend to like men and women singers equally. And when they sing out loud—it doesn’t matter if it is a male singer singing the song or a female singer. For example, when I sing a song that is by a male singer that says “I love you darling”, then I am still pretending the male singer is singing it to me, as a women—even though I am singing it. If, however, a woman is singing a song to the person she loves, and I am singing it—I don’t suddenly think “Oh, I’m a lesbian because I am singing about loving a woman.” I just switch roles again and pretend in my mind that it is a guy singing it to me even if I am the one singing it.
Does that make your head explode? It was designed to. The upshot is, the study found that most men like EITHER songs that men sing (because they are putting themselves in the place of the man singing) OR they like women singers (because they put themselves in the place that women are singing to them). But switching back and forth between gender roles is simply not something they do. This is backed up by my very small observation when I go out to Karaoke joints where I almost never see men who sing songs by female vocalists.
4) Domestic violence
There is another way this dynamic comes into place.
I remember talking to a director who was creating a film, “Romeo” about a guy who works with men who have been charged with domestic violence. And these guys actually hit their partner so hard that there was injury involved.
This guy Antonio, who was born in Boston and raised in Haiti, suffered from nightmares of the abuse he suffered as a child, and those nightmares drove him to work with violent men as an adult. He became obsessed about helping men whom society would rather see incarcerated started informal counseling sessions with them, and tried to create change and healing
And what Antonio worked with these men over 8 years of time, was that the ones who “got it” – the men who were able to stop being violent – were the men who were able to tell the story of the abuse, as if they were the woman.
So – the piece of the movie I saw opened on a guy saying something like, “And then you pulled me out of the car—you were grabbing me by my hair and screaming at me. You put your boot on my forehead, and were calling me a bitch…”
And—as a reminder — this is a guy saying those words. But that incident didn’t really happen to HIM – the guy telling the story was the perpetrator. But he was reversing roles—he was actually telling the story as if he was the victim. And that is what got him to change.
5) Clothing
I read a recent article about a mom talking about children’s clothing. And this mom had heard about a woman who was frustrated with the lack of clothing choices for girls and designed a line of clothing for girls that had rocket ships and trains and dinosaurs etc. And she thought that was great, but had the thought “what about the boys?” And this was her insight:
Boys, on the other hand …
I look at it this way.
If one of my girls ends up preferring pants to dresses, sports to dance, or any number of activities that make her less “girly,” no one will think twice. If she is athletic, her athletic ability will be applauded. If she is smart, her intelligence will take her far in life. If she is simply a girl who likes to play outside and get dirty, I can tell you right now that everyone I know will encourage that. I’ll post pictures of her on Facebook with her hands in the mud and get hundreds of likes and comments. Guess what none of those comments will say?
“Hey, don’t you think you should encourage her to pursue more girly interests?”
“Pretty sure if you let her play sports she will become a lesbian.”
And here’s where I get upset. Here’s where the mama bear in me comes out. My perfect, adorable 5-year-old is that boy who wanted to be Elsa for Halloween. He ended up loving his costume, but we had to piece it together because no store sells a “Boy Elsa” costume, and even in preschool, I did not even want to think of what the other kids would say to my guy if I let him wear a dress to school.
My 5-year-old loves My Little Pony also — and have I ever been able to find a My Little Pony t-shirt for him? No. I can buy my daughters any number of superhero t-shirts; even if I end up buying from the boys’ department, the shirts are gender-neutral enough that I don’t have to worry about other kids being cruel. All the shirts in the girls’ department, though, have ruffles on the sleeves, are various shades of pink, white and purple, or have ribbons and bows on them.
As a mom, this becomes my constant dilemma. Yes, buying my son a girl’s shirt now would make him happy. What happens, though, when I let him wear that shirt to school and a couple of mean kids make comments about his shirt? He’s sensitive enough as it is. I feel as though my husband and I are constantly walking that fine line between encouraging him to be who he is and making sure that we aren’t sending him into the line of fire, so to speak. I know firsthand how much a few cruel comments from peers can hurt and begin to stomp out that special something that makes you “you,” and I want to protect my son from that, and so yes, that means being careful of what I let him wear to school.
So … why aren’t we talking about this side of gender inequality?
Why are we focusing on encouraging our girls to be whoever they are and do whatever they want while ignoring our boys?
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Boys aren’t told to do “girly things” because woman’s roles have historically been devalued. The incessant policing of men to make sure that men stay in the man-box includes making sure they don’t act like a girl, or role play a girl, or be a girl.
I’d like you all to think about this:
Do you think the world would be a better place if you allowed your son to wear a dress? Does the thought of your son (or a guy friend, or a leader you admire) wearing a dress make you uncomfortable?
And if so, why?
Can you see a world where men don’t just “understand’ women—but are able and encouraged to be like women? And is the problem we have with men acting “more like a woman” one of the key parts of society that would be beneficial to humanity if it changed?
I’d like to open it up for discussion now:
Jed Diamond: First of all, it’s fascinating that you moderate the comments. The person that heads the company usually does not have the connection with the day to day community that you do. I’d also like to talk about your first point—the comment and the anger and rage inherent there. I’m a psychotherapist and when a man or a woman comes in it is often because their relationship is in trouble. And what I sees is that when that happens, the man often has rage, and it’s often directed at his partner “If only she would be different, everything would be better…” And I try to help both men and women, get past the point where every sentence starts with “My wife is the problem.” And I want them to change that to the insight: “It isn’t your wife that’s the problem, it’s your life that the problem.” …But there is so much going on in this world, it’s totally complicated and we are often overwhelmed—so it’s easier to just simplify things. If you can blame it all on one person, it’s sometimes just easier to make sense of the world.
Mark Sherman: I’ve been interested in gender issues from the 1970’s. That first comment in the introduction about men being demonized…not the hateful part but the first part…I can see that. I am lucky in that I don’t feel my wife is the problem; we’ve been married for 45 years. And I was arguing with her the other day (as we sometimes do) and I said to her “It’s easy for you, you can just go off and join your sisters!” She doesn’t have actual sisters, but I meant the support of women, who I sometimes see as an army of women who are battling against men. And after I said that, I had a moment of insight: It’s not her; it’s the way I see things. It’s that women help each other, and men and boys seem to get no attention. Men feel—good men, decent men—feel as if they are treated in ways that make them feel alienated. And boys do not feel valued.
Susan Winter: As I listened to the stories and comments, I could get the feeling of encroachment that males must get as the idea of maleness gets smaller and smaller for them. Men had created a model of the world that worked for them and women moved into it. So where are men supposed to move now? Are they supposed to move to the female side of things, is that the only option? As females I believe we have stepped into a world where the table was already set and now we finally have a seat at the table. We know what role we want to play and it’s better than it was. But as men—my dilemma would be “What is the next version of being a man?”
Ashley Michelle Fowler: This reinforces the idea that patriarchy hurts both men and women. Mark used as one of his descriptions “an army of women”—and I want to say that I understand that sentiment, it has been a battle. Likewise, I want to point out that women are not inherently better at coming together—they are often quite bad at it—if in the past it has felt like a battle they needed to fight, and they did mobilize because of that.
Mark Sherman: I’m kind of old, I’m 72, and being old is not so great. But there is one piece of it that is great and that is that I can remember things that happened long ago. In 1968, there were women who were talked out of going to law school, and that was terrible. But now law school classes are half women. What I see now, in education and other places, is that women are not struggling. Not in the ways they were. Boys, on the other hand—boys are struggling. If they do boy things they get in big trouble. Boys today are seen as devalued. What do I tell my sons? What do I tell my grandsons? So let’s open it up. If boys want to wear dresses, fine. If my grandson does, I will be the most loving supportive grandfather. But let’s open it up to also allow traditional boy behavior too.
Patty Beach: I like to talk about the “V-factor” and by that I mean “versatility factor”. It’s the degree to which you are comfortable with both your masculine or feminine energy. Can’t we just value both sides whether it’s a man or a woman? Back when we separated men out, when men went off to work, they got stronger because they worked together. But women got weaker because they stayed in the house, and spread out and were more isolated from other. That dynamic is finally changing.
Kozo Hattori: I’d like to go back to the comment about music. I was driving to my Hospice job, listening to Sam Smith. I don’t know is you know Sam Smith, but he is gay, and he sings about wanting a man to leave another man for him. And as I was singing, and knowing what the words were about, it did seem odd to me—you know, a guy singing about the unrequited love of another man. And when I think about the question of “What space can men move into”—I think of this. What I did as I was singing was I separated myself and my inner child. And first I sang the songs from the point of view of my inner child singing to myself. And then I switched and sang from the point of view of myself singing to my inner child. And that allowed me to occupy a space that was very whole. As men, that is the space we need. We don’t need to move to a feminine space, but to a space for our whole self.
Ashley Michelle Fowler: The males I speak with on college campuses understand this space. There is a striving for authenticity, not femininity. Who am I, who is my authentic self. That is the goal, to strive for everyone’s authentic self.
Patty Beach: In some ways, it’s an English linguistic issue. There are two sides to the whole: left and right, up and down, ying and yang. They don’t have to be connected with gender. But in the English language, we associate the feminine side with the feminine gender. Or issue is that we label things, and by labeling a side as feminine, men then feel it is not manly enough.
Mike Patrick: In the initial presentation, Lisa spoke about the movie—how much Mad Max took in with Charlize Theron as a strong woman. I can only go by watching the trailer, but how much violence there is in that movie, and how stereotypical that violence is. And women who compete in that world become as violent as men are. What can we do to try to get away from that stereotype? Why is it that men have to be stereotypically violent in order for a movie to make money?
Mike Stilley: I’d like to piggyback on what Mike Patrick said but also address Mark Sherman. Mark, when you talk about your grandsons and what to tell them—I think it would be fairly easy to sit down and have a conversation with them not only about where we have grown but where we have been. That we’ve been a male dominated society, and that is the reason they hear the rhetoric, is because we have been in society that has been dominated in such a one sided way. I do agree that we live in an era of “either we are open-minded or not” and I’d like to expand hte notion of growing together. To be aware of both where we are going and where we are from.
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Photo: Hartwig HKD / flickr
As jed mentioned i think nonconformity is the real issue. Humans have an incredible tenacity to be sheeple. There is great reward in being an outlier but equal negative risk in being so. If you are a successful outlier according to conventional standards of success you are accepted for being eccentric. But woe is unto them who fail. Like any financial investment one has high risk and rewards over another. I have been the recipient of both results at times. This explains alot about the early feminist movement. The women espousing such thought were outliers not conforming to the expectations… Read more »
I recently read a fascinating book… not a book about gender per se but bear with me…. called “Savage Harvest.” It’s the true story of Michael Rockefeller (son of Nelson Rockefeller), who disappeared in 1961 in New Guinea while collecting works of art from the Asmat people. The Asmat are hunter gatherers who live on the southwestern coast of New Guinea. The author of the book spent months with the Asmat to try to understand them and their culture better. It seems that for generations, most Asmat villages existed in a state of near total warfare with neighboring villages. As… Read more »
I think we all wrestle with the dynamic of wanting to “be authentic” vs wanting to “fit in.” One of the benefits of feeling like a misfit (which I think a lot of us have felt growing up) is that I could say, “to hell with fitting in, not going to happen, so I might as well go with being authentic.” When I was four I got my first pair of “big boy shoes” and fell in love with Red Keds. The salesman explained to my mother that red was for girls and blue was for boys. I insisted on… Read more »
Wow, Lisa….you are moderator …on top of being head of the site! It is a big job…and I am shocked that a supposed would be/wannabee mass murderer feels like he needs to post here….there is so much hate in the world….
“I was forced to accept reality. Fury Road was not going to be a movie made for men. It was going to be a feminist piece of propaganda posing as a guy flick…” Not affiliated with any manosphere groups, but I do wonder why a cheesy action movie needs Eve Ensler to consult on it. The notion of a feminist consultant for a movie feels as unnecessary as a liberal consultant for a movie, or a conservative one, or any consultant for any other sort of political position. No need for a boycott, but that did raise half an eyebrow… Read more »
The issue I have with many of these ‘Remaking Masculinity’ threads is that they seem to start with the assumption that Men/Boys are somehow ‘broken’. We see it in public education where boys who won’t sit still in class are treated as ‘defective’ girls (who seem better at sitting still in class). Instead of looking at the curriculum and structure possibilities as to why ‘Johnny can’t sit still’, we deem him ‘behaviorally challenged’ and feed him Ritalin. Look, all I’m saying is that 45 years ago, give or take, we took a good look at our educational system to see… Read more »