Lili: So give us a couple of worst case/best case scenarios that you could imagine, if nothing else changes, nothing intervenes to change the trajectory we’re on. When young men prefer online sex to real life relationships because online is so much easier, and when the porn industry targets more and more females so that now the addiction rate amongst porn-using females is 17% and climbing steadily the past few years, what do you foresee possibly happening here?
Bob: Well, one clear consequence of this is that when in secular societies, especially within feminism, there’s no consistent critical examination of this, the only place where people are critiquing it, then, in a way that’s consistent, is in conservative and typically religious contexts.
So if the dominant secular culture can’t cope with the problems we’re discussing, I think it will simply drive more people, both men and women, to conservative and religious responses.
So they want to deal with it, but the dominant culture gives them no tools.
Well, if you go to right-wing religion, it does give you tools. Now, I think they’re the wrong tools; I don’t think they understand the nature of the issue and therefore I think their response is inadequate. But it is a response. So I think that’s one ironic consequence of it.
For people in secular circles, especially the secular, liberal or feminist circles to continue to celebrate pornography, refuse to look at the issues we’re talking about, it’s going to drive more people into the arms of right-wing religion where at least there’s an answer of some sort.
Unfortunately that answer is to reinscribe patriarchy, to return to quote unquote “traditional family values” where you see patriarchy playing out not in the way that men buy and sell women’s bodies but the way men must take their role as the head of the family in a traditional, heterosexual family values, etcetera, well, that’s one thing that’s going to happen.
The other thing that’s going to happen is that in some sense we can only assume the problems are going to get worse. The inability to not only take seriously the problems but understand the underlying systems from which those problems arise guarantees that, in the absence of some intervention, that it’ll just continue. And here, I don’t know how to predict.
Because the last 20 years, the period of time in which I’ve been studying the pornography industry, the industry has pushed the boundaries of what can be represented in graphic and sexually explicit fashion in ways that I don’t think anybody could have predicted 20 years ago. The extreme nature of some of the acts in pornography, the intensity of the cruelty and degradation to women, the racism of it, I mean all of it kind of defies the imagination.
And that’s not just my estimation. When I’ve interviewed pornography producers and directors, I often ask them, “What do you think is coming next? What are the trends?”
And they kind of shrug. Some of them have told me, “I’ve shot, I’ve filmed, I’ve photographed everything I know how to do.”
I’ve had male producers and directors tell me, “We’ve done everything to the female body we know how to do.”
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Lili: Oh my God, I suddenly feel sick.
Bob: Well, it’s a very disturbing reality. But it is reality. And so, if the fundamental charge of pornography, the sexual charge, the excitement, comes from presenting women as objectified bodies for male sexual pleasure in a patriarchal context where male domination and female subordination is at the core of that sexual excitement, then in a society like this, premised on mass mediation, premised on the expansion of profit in capitalism, the industry is going to continue to push for ever more extreme ways to try to provide that sexual excitement.
And where does that end? I don’t know where it ends.
Is there a limit? Well, I don’t know how to predict. The industry’s already gone way beyond what I think most people would have predicted in the past.
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Lili: Well, as one example, we can look at Japan to see what’s happened there: the creation of video games where the player gets to virtually rape three generations of women: the very young daughter, the mother, the grandmother…
Bob: But I don’t think it’s specific to any one country. I think the porn industry is now global. There are specific styles of pornography that have come out of specific countries, including Japan, but they’re all similar in that they root the sexual excitement in male domination and female subordination. And that’s really the way to understand pornography in contemporary culture.
So yeah, there’s some pretty unbelievable things that come out of Japan, and there’s a lot of unbelievable stuff that comes out of the San Fernando Valley in California. There’s unbelievable stuff that comes out of Europe. We live in a world where women are bought and sold for male sexual pleasure on a daily basis. In some places it can be on the street, where you can buy and sell not only adult women but girls…and boys.
It happens through mediation in a more advanced industrial culture, it happens in all sorts of ways and it’s all part of this fundamental definition of women as being less than fully human.
And fulfilling one of their primary roles in the world as providing sexual pleasure for men. And that’s the core of patriarchy, and pornography is part of that.
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Lili: What would one say about all these women pornographers now making porn? Because any talk about the patriarchy would then tend to fall on deaf ears.
Bob: But there’s nothing new about that. In complex systems of oppression, the trend in which members of oppressed groups might make their own particular bargain with the system, that goes on all the time.
Let’s take it out of the sexual context. Go to the third world where European and North American Imperialism has imposed economic systems on third world people that enrich the first world and enmiserate the third world. Well, in those societies there’s some portion of the third world society that makes it’s deal with the Imperialist society and is rewarded for that.
The fact that women participate in what I would call patriarchal institutions is neither new nor surprising…it’s in the nature of oppression.
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So you go to Latin America, in the worst of American domination, and there was a class of people who cut deals with American business and American government to get their share of the gain. Meanwhile the vast majority of the population suffered. It happens, and it’s complex and one has to look at people’s motivations and the systems within which people make those choices. The fact that women participate in what I would call patriarchal institutions is neither new nor surprising…it’s in the nature of oppression.
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Lili: What I love so much about your work is the way in which you chronicle your own journey, and describe your own deconstruction of the concept of masculinity, what it stands for, and then eventually move more towards realizing that you would rather identify as human than as masculine.
So, I’d like to ask you about masculinity, then. There appears to be a strong drive to define what it is today.
How important do you think that is, to define masculinity?
Bob: I approach it in what I think is a very simple and sensible fashion. We are a sexually dimorphic species: there are male and female humans. Our reproduction is based on that. The result is that we will always have these categories of men and women, of masculine and feminine. They’re not going to go away because the species is based on sexual differentiation. So, I have no problem recognizing there are male bodies and female bodies, and also a small percentage of the human population born, what I call, “intersexed.”
The problem I have with the obsession with masculinity is about how that plays out within patriarchy. In patriarchy, there is a continued session with establishing a definition of masculinity that keeps men on top. Now, people will argue about what that definition should be. But much of the attempts even to redefine masculinity away from a traditional conception of masculinity based on domination, conquest and control—even a lot of the attempts to reformulate masculinity end up reinscribing that notion of domination, conquest, and control.
And so my argument is, that as a corrective to that, we need to stop obsessing about masculinity and, obviously, that would include implications for femininity, as well.
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Lili: Of course.
Bob: But stop obsessing about what it means to be a man, and reformulate the question as: What does it mean to be a human? so that men can start to think about these questions outside of patriarchal demands that even in subtle ways, remain on top. And that’s, I think, the real challenge.
Once we’ve taken care of patriarchy and once male domination as a political reality is over, then I don’t mind talking about what is it to be male, and female, and what might masculinity and femininity really mean. But we’re not anywhere near that point yet.
And so, rather than try to constantly ask: how can we reconceptualize masculinity?, I think the greater challenge and the more productive challenge for men is, How to break free of our obsession with masculinity? and start asking: How can we more fully live out our humanity?
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Lili: What about all the men’s groups now, whether male rights, or male empowerment groups?
How do you see that trend in the context we’re speaking of now?
Bob: I’ve spoken to some of them….I don’t participate in men’s groups, because I think, even when well-intentioned, most men’s groups end up playing out patriarchal games.
My formative political experience was in a feminist movement, in a feminist organization that was woman-run, based on the insights of women around patriarchy. That did everything I needed, for me.
It helped explain my own tension with masculinity, it gave me a vehicle for trying to change the world, and it gave me the tools I needed to engage in critical self-reflection. I didn’t need a men’s group; I’ve never understood the need for men’s groups.
I think men can more productively self-reflect about this, both individually and collectively, within the context of the feminist movement, rather than within the context of a men’s movement. And women are eager to have men engage in that, so there’s no shortage of ways to do it. And there’s nothing impeding men from doing that, from trying to understand themselves within a feminine context.
My argument is that [feminism] is the only context men are going to break free of the ways in which patriarchy creates very toxic conceptions of masculinity. If we want to actually slip the trap of patriarchy ourselves, it’s going to be, from my point of view, through feminism, not through men’s groups.
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My argument is that is the only context men are going to break free of the ways in which patriarchy creates very toxic conceptions of masculinity. If we want to actually slip the trap of patriarchy ourselves, it’s going to be, from my point of view, through feminism, not through men’s groups.
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Lili: So you wouldn’t identify yourself, then, as a humanist rather than a feminist? Is calling yourself a feminist primarily coming out of an allegiance to the movement which gave you your roots?
Bob: Yes! Just as in the same way that as a white person, I came to understand racial injustice and oppression, not by some vague humanism, but by the work of black and brown critics of white supremacy. In other words, when you have a system of oppression in place, you understand it not by trying to transcend the oppression in some mythical, magical fashion and pretend you can rise above it.
You deal with it by confronting it, and there are movements that have historically helped people do that. Radical anti-capitalists, labor movements have helped us engage in critiquing the inequality in capitalism. Feminism has helped us do that in gender. Various kinds of critical race groups have done that around white supremacy. That’s the vehicle, not some ideal, mythical humanism.
I don’t have any problem with the term “humanism” as some sort of assertion of an ideal that transcends differences, to try and understand our common humanity. But we do that through politics, and that politics needs a theory, and it needs an analysis and it needs an understanding of history. And that’s what feminism does for me in this particular context.
Read Part 1 of the interview: Is Sex Positive Ever Negative?
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About Robert Jensen, Ph.D
Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin and author of ” target=”_blank”>All My Bones Shake: Seeking a Progressive Path to the Prophetic Voice (Soft Skull Press, 2009); ” target=”_blank”>Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity (South End Press, 2007); and several other books. Jensen is also co-producer of the documentary film “Abe Osheroff: One Foot in the Grave, the Other Still Dancing,” which chronicles the life and philosophy of the longtime radical activist.
Jensen can be reached via Email [email protected] and his articles can be found online.
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—Photo arhadetruit/Flickr
What a load of crap.
Women aren’t children. If they participate in porn it’s an adult choice they are making. Loads of them do it for free. They make the same conscious decisions that men make. This is all so much predictable and patterned GMP anti-male rhetoric.
I don’t see anywhere , where someone claims women were children. But this is a common moniker you enjoy to use Eric. It’s such a perserve statement because you’re not really concerned about women being treated like children. Actually, you enjoy the idea because it gives you a platform to belittle women and insist that any issues they face can be taken down notches to them just being “child status”. Thus, downplaying women and issues they may face that should infact be up for discussion. The ability to acknowledge that many women in the porn business end up abused in… Read more »
You contradict yourself when you say the thing about women in porn having suffered abuse during childhood because having been abused as a child doesn’t negate someone’s status as being an adult once they’re of age. Being an adult means being allowed to make your own mistakes, there’s no way to get around that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5zhu1xsDlI&feature=player_embedded
I found this article to be impeccably written, and found much value in the critical lense that gender, feminism, patriarchy and pornography was viewed. For anyone who does not believe pornography harms people, please go to these sites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNZG-S27hgo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1ZAG0K4_O4
http://www.shelleylubben.com
For those people who do not believe porn use can become an addiction, please read this:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/pornography-addiction-a-neuroscience-perspective-2011.
There is a list of scientific, peer-reviewed and credible articles for your further reading.
Best of luck to you on seeking the truth for yourself.
Sex addiction is a debilitating curse. Anything to help reduce its impact is only going to help men and women in their relationships – no matter which one of the partnership is the sex addict. Both men and women can become addicted to abnormal sexual behaviors.
I agree Cam. Having a wild, fun and exciting lifestyle is one thing but when the lifestyle starts to run you, with less enjoyment each day, driven by an obsession more than joyful desire, dire repercussions from erratic behaviors, then life needs a bit of introspection.
One could say that about any and every life circumstance… jobs, homes, family, all the things we do.
The idea that women pornographers are really victims of oppression seems very patronising to me. A male pornographer is an evil misogynist exploiting women, but a woman who does exactly the same job must have been pushed into it by her oppressor, and therefore isn’t truly responsible. Whatever she says about why she makes porn, ultimately men (in the form of all powerful Patriarchy) must somehow be to blame for her choices. Generally it’s only children and the mentally handicapped who aren’t considered fully responsible for their actions. Some radical feminists seem to want to include mentally competent adult women… Read more »
http://www.abolishchildtrafficking.org/
According to the U.S. Department of Justice, nearly 85% of victims in confirmed sex trafficking cases are U.S. citizens – mostly homeless kids. While often perceived as an international issue, American children are being trafficked throughout our country every day.
How many such cases are there as compared to the number of cases of prostitution offenses? Could you provide me with a ratio or a link?
Thanks.
Finally, what the heck does a non “pornofied” relationship look like? I mean, aren’t there two (or more) people having sex? Tab A into slot B repeat as required? That’s pretty much the essense of porn. Sure you twiddle this, stroke that and so on, but basically, that’s all there is to it. Heck, some days even I wonder why I watch the stuff it’s so danged repetitive. I’ve done pretty much the same in my sex life and I haven’t found my SO’s complaining that it was “pornofied.” I can sort of get it when you object to a… Read more »
Hi Wet One, well, to me, “pornified” sex means that someone has watched so much porn that the real sexual experience is just an extension of a porn fantasy, rather than an experience of 2 people connecting on an intimate mental, emotional and physical level. And, yes, I know sometimes a “quickie” or a one-night stand can be physically gratifying and a lot of fun, but even then, it’s so much more than just inserting Tab A into Tab B. Sadly, but you wouldn’t know that from porn. I do think there is mystery and enchantment in sexuality, but porn… Read more »
Shouldn’t that be Tab A into Slot B?
um, yes, Slot B. Thank you!
You seem to have very conservative sexual values, it’s funny to me that people who say things like you often call yourselves liberals. You just want to obtain a monopoly over the sexual interest of men instead of having to compete with other women. However your perception that you can’t compete with women in porn is probably a mental distortion caused by insecurity and sexual repression. Adults have the right to record themselves having sex and distribute it to others. Deal with it.
Thanks for a most thoughtful article. I especially liked Bee and Jensen’s pungent comments about humanism. Also, Jensen’s comments about the difference between tends and patterns and predicting what every single person will do are spot-on.
I hope Tom Matlock is reading this article. Sadly, I have seen him elevate masculinity above femininity in several of his articles
As a woman who wants to be “sex positive” in the sense of having a healthy, uninhibited, intimate sex life with someone I love and care about, the thing I struggle with is how to find a sex-positive relationship that isn’t “pornified” at some level. When every man I meet has probably watched 1000x more sexual acts on film than he has ever experienced, how do I compete with that? What is special to him about my body when he has seen 1000’s of other women’s bodies before mine (bodies which are probably much more appealing than mine)? Does he… Read more »
I see your point JIll. There is a solution to that issue which no one will accept. Start normalizing and having sex a whole lot earlier. Like at age 14 or so (both boys and girls ). That doesn’t fly in modern life due to economic and legal factors. Otherwise, if men (and increasingly women) are waiting to have sex until 25 when they are economically able to handle it and “mature” enough to handle it, well, porn will have already set in and any woman who feels as you do Jill is simply beat. On the other hand, guys… Read more »
I guess another point Jill is that you will NEVER WIN the looks competition game (especially with two dimensional images that can be photoshopped and modified to what is simply unnatural). There will always be someone more physically beautiful than you, if not in the present, tehn eventually. That’s just the way it is. You’re better off learning how to suck a golf ball through a garden, tie cherry stems with your tongue, do a million kegel exercises (that one’s pretty cool), shoot ping pong balls out of your woo hoo or something really interesting than worry about your looks.… Read more »
I’m hearing you Jill – I have a very similar want and stance. When their brains are awash and eventually hard-wired by all those tantalizing, sexy, hard-core images, real-life just doesn’t seem to cut it anymore… I’m still confident I can find a partner who has a healthy porn usage – I’ve given up my quest to meet a man who doesn’t consume porn. I’m not sure many of those exist…
I hear you, Jill. And it IS a big issue for a lot of us, which is why I’ve written the articles I have. They draw controversy but we MUST keep talking about this. What doesn’t get discussed enough is the big money driving all this (Dr. Jensen touched on it) and the emphasis gets conveniently shifted onto discussions about “rights”, whether they be related to personal sexual freedom, the freedoms afforded your group of peers (sex positive, to name one example) but the really juicy story just waiting to be written is the financial one. Thanks for responding so… Read more »
Oh, do tell about the “big money” behind the sex-positive movement. Because clearly, there are no personal sexual freedom or freedom of expression issues at stake here, right? When Jensen’s close collaborator Gail Dines is part of a congressional briefing alongside Morality in Media, calling for more obscenity prosecutions, nobody but “big porn” and their paid shills could possibly object, I guess.
It amazes me that any halfway educated person could buy into the shit that you’re peddling here.
The money isn’t actually that big, lili Bee. Among the people I talk to are a highly successful pornographer– he’s one of the Big Names. His wife is one of the most enduring sex actresses in the business.
And he worries about his future, and his wife and employees futures.
That’s because porn is a free market now where people are still getting the product for free. It’s not because there is a lack of interest in porn.
Jill, I speak with porn-using men daily. And what many of them say is that porn is nothing compared to the real thing, and the real thing–imperfect as she might be– is much better than the beautiful but not actually touchable bodies on the screen.
I have heard men rhapsodize about the woman they’ve gotten together with, and then seen the photos of a woman who is lumpy, and short– normal to you and I in every way. You’d think they were talking about some porn superstar!
I must say it is a struggle to stay in conversation with those who refuse to believe that sex trafficking, sex slavery, porn addiction/compulsivity exist in statistically meaningful numbers. I will because we simply must keep talking until we hear each other. I have worked with partners/spouses of sex addicts/NPDs for over four years and the numbers here in Atlanta are NOT small or insignificant. I am also an activist for the abolition of sex slavery and sex/human trafficking. That is happening here also. Sadly, just last week the two causes intersected. One of the sex addicts (whose spouse I… Read more »
Who said that “sex trafficking, sex slavery,” don’t ” exist in statistically meaningful numbers”? I agree that these things occur, but I don’t really think it’s on every street corner? Why do I think this? 1. Every time there’s a child porn bust, I hear about it. 2. Every time there’s a case of sexual slavery in my city I hear about it. 3. I hear about #1 about 50 or 100 times more often than I hear about #2. I don’t think that police just let sex slavery or human trafficking slide and I know they are pretty vigorous… Read more »
“Women in a patriarchy do NOT have the same choices men do. Especially sexually.” Putting aside the problematic concept of “The Patriarchy”, which comes across as simply an all-purpose justification for the less savory aspects of some types of feminism, the solutions I see coming from Jensen, Dines, and the rest are still fundamentally wrong. Do we deal with many women’s relative lack of choices by the lowest-common-denominator restrictions on everybody’s choices? Or do we raise the power of women up so they have more meaningful choices? I say the latter, and this is very much what sex-positive feminism is… Read more »
Here are some citations: ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite any woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds. http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way to make money for un-skilled labor,… Read more »
Your comment is awaiting moderation. Here are some citations: ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite any woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds. ht tp://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way… Read more »
Your comment is awaiting moderation. Here are some citations: ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite any woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds. http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way to… Read more »
Your comment is awaiting moderation. Here are some citations: ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite any woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds. ht tp://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way… Read more »
It’s things like this that cause me to wonder about how much “sex slavery goes on.” As I said before, I have no doubt that it does (as noted above it was found at the 2006 World Cup in Germany), but I don’t think that it happens in massive numbers. We would see more evidence if it did. Rather like child porn, where a week doesn’t go by without hearing about a child porn bust somewhere. Unless you actually believe that cops don’t investigate these kinds of things or that sex slavery victims are completely unable to ask for help,… Read more »
I have a question: When you talk about the violence depicted… in online porn, what are you thinking of?
Terre Spencer: Here are some citations: ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite UK law stating any foreign woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds. ht tp://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best… Read more »
This just occurred to me: One of the sex addicts (whose spouse I have worked with) was arrested at a strip club for attempting to solicit a sex slave
there are some extremely important words in that sentence: one is “arrested” and the other is “attempting”
As in, whatever his fantasy was, he didn’t get what he was asking for. because mostly– it’s just a fantasy, nobody actually gets to buy sex slaves. They just think they can.
Dr. Jensen and Lili, thank you for your reflection, wisdom and insight. Dr. Jenson you hit the nail on the head when you said: “The hardest sexuality is not tricks…it’s intimacy.” This is the crux of the matter. We’re sooooo polarized and jaded about not enough sex, too much sex, bad sex, graphic sex; women hating men, men hating women….the list keeps going, that we can’t see what’s in between the lines. The “humanity” of sex as something that takes two mature, reflective and respectful partners to accomplish whether they be straight or gay. And because we seem to have… Read more »
I’m intrigued that Bee & Jensen are uncritically using the fact that “compulsive online sexual activity by one partner is the reason stated in the majority of divorce cases every year”. Given that most divorce cases are contentious as best, lawyers will use anything and everything to try to gain an edge. If a partner has looked at online porn, that’s easily magnified into “compulsivity” in order to try to smear the other person. Further, unless a claim of sexual compulsivity is made by a trained therapist, it’s likely to be the result of misinformation or fear. I’ve spoken with… Read more »
A citation would have been nice. I’m getting really tired of feminists on this site positing their opinion as fact without any citations. Here is an interesting link: ht tp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/ This is the largest divorce study I have ever heard of. 46,000 divorces covering 4 states. REasons given by women for divorcing: Infidelity Not a Major Factor Exploitation Not a Factor “Because I’ve Outgrown Him” “Because I Don’t Need Him” “Because I Will Win” Statistically, author Margaret Brinig says, women who filed for divorce most often felt confident they would receive advantageous custody agreements. “The question of custody absolutely swamps… Read more »
Here is your citation, John- “In 2003 the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers reported that over half of all their divorce cases that year resulted from “excessive interest in online porn”. -P. Paul, Pornified. In the eight years since that statistic, porn has, of course, only exploded even more so there’s no reason to believe these numbers have gone down. The other issues you raise are serious ones and in need of real discourse, however, minimizing the prevalence of online sexual compulsivity as a strong factor in divorces does a great disservice to the many who have stood by their… Read more »
Some common sense: Divorcing litigants are going to try and besmirch each other for better positioning. Rather than relying on lawyers who are part of the problem of making divorce expensive and contentious I would put my faith in an anonymous study of 46,000 divorces then 1 quote from a person who sees the maximum divisiveness and (potentially false or over-blown) claims to better their position, or to paint the other litigant as un-safe to be around the children. Do you have a link to this article? Is this a study or just a quote from one person organization? Common… Read more »
Hi John- The quote is from a book, not an online source, though the book’s probably available online. The name of it is Pornified, author P. Paul, who is a statistician. In any event, the quote was released by the American Assn of Matrimonial Lawyers, not an individual attorney or firm. If that stat was a tool used against the spouse wanting custody, then it would seem to be in their interest to release new stats every year. However, despite repeated phone calls to them, they will not release those statistics for more recent years. Don’t you find that pretty… Read more »
Hi Lilli, Thanks for taking the time to respond. Accepting your supposition that porn addiction would cut both ways, then it stands to reason that your stat regarding the matrimonial assn of lawyers doesn’t pass the smiff test. Since mothers get sole custody 80% and shared 14% (to fathers sole custody 6% and shared 14%) I would say that the over-riding factor regarding child custody CAN’T be porn addiction (or as you point out custody would be more evenly split). It seems that the more likely determining factor is biased laws and anti-father courts. Also, since the Matrimonial Assn of… Read more »
Hi Charlie- You said: “Further, unless a claim of sexual compulsivity is made by a trained therapist, it’s likely to be the result of misinformation or fear. I’ve spoken with many people who were convinced that their partner’s were sexually compulsive simply because they had a difference in their levels of interest in sex, not because the partner with a higher interest was outside the statistical norm. ”
We actually do NOT diagnose, but refer out to CSATs, Certified Sex Addiction Therapists. They are the only ones qualified to make a diagnosis.
It does happen all the time in North America though. The sex trade industry is big here, and half the time that prostitute you bought may be a victim of that very sex trade and you will never know. Here are some links for proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCo_PVUqqTY
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-11-25/opinion/carr.human.trafficking_1_trafficking-victims-protection-act-tvpa-lena?_s=PM:OPINION
http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-10-06/news/17316911_1_trafficking-victims-human-trafficking-new-owners
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1596778&page=1
And it’s not just children either but women unwillingly thrown into the fray through coercion; johns buying them will never know they are a victim. Half the time, they don’t care.
When you say victim of the sex trade what do you mean? Do you mean that the person was bought and sold and is owned by someone else? I think that is very rare and I need some evidence that this occurs on a wide scale. If that’s the case, why don’t they (the adult women in any event) just shout for help on the street? Are they totally incompetent? Are they children? I assume not. I have actually seen reported cases of adult women being kidnapped to be dragged into the sex trade, but like I say, that’s rare… Read more »
“According to the U.S. Department of Justice, nearly 85% of victims in confirmed sex trafficking cases are U.S. citizens – mostly homeless kids. While often perceived as an international issue, American children are being trafficked throughout our country every day.”
http://www.abolishchildtrafficking.org/
No, prostitution and trafficking are pretty much the same thing.
Really, so the ranches in Nevada are engaged in trafficking? Why aren’t the authorities cracking down on that?
“No, prostitution and trafficking are pretty much the same thing.” That is utter bullshit on several levels. It denies that there is a such thing as *non-sexual* trafficking, when in fact this is the majority. And it denies that fact that many sex workers are far from slaves, and will tell you in no uncertain terms that they aren’t if you were to ask them. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you’re pushing this line, you are very much part of the problem, because you’ve taken the very real problem of forced labor (both… Read more »
“We, as a global people, are quickly forgetting the fundamentals, and reasoning, of raising children as a significant aspect and purpose of our lives.” Prescriptive. Please don’t tell me what the purpose for my life is or ought to be. If everyone wanted to stop breeding tomorrow, they truly have no obligation to do otherwise. Humanity has MANY responsibilities, and I’d never absolve them of such; but I never once understood reproduction to be one of them. If people can be celibate, single, or in non-monogamous relationships in a healthy, satisfying way (mutually for all parties involved, of course), then… Read more »
I concur.
There was not a “should” or “ought” in my comment above, Alex. I absolutely do not care what you or anyone does with their genitals and reproduction as long as it doesn’t intrude into my personal space. In looking at any and every biological creature on this planet, it seems that the natural imperative is to survive and to then reproduce. That is what I was addressing in my comment. I believe that it’s irresponsible for humans to have a bunch of kids during an already overpopulated world with a serious depletion of natural and sustainable resources. That is my… Read more »
Plus one.
I’m imeprssed. You’ve really raised the bar with that.
Oh yeah, and a simple answer to this question: “In this culture, in this moment, why do so many people seem to need pictures?” Because we always have. Ever heard of Pompeii? Erotica in the ancient world (say like the carving in that holy place in India and the Kama Sutra). It’s never been any different. It’s old ideas in a new medium. Nothing to see here folks. I think that our culture (moreso in the U.S. than some other places), it’s been put so under wraps that it seems odd that it’s bursting out everywhere. Well, it was everywhere… Read more »
The artistic murals, mosaics and art which adorned our ancient civilizations were depicting these sensual and sexual delights for the sake of enticing them to the enjoyments of one another. The difference in todays culture is that the “art” of pornography is instead, more often replacing the other.
I don’t believe that for a second. It completely fails to square with what I learned of ancient Rome and Greece in my classics classes at the University. Also, have you ever seen the show Spartacus, Blood and Sand? That’s more like a depiction of what life was like back then. I won’t say it was totally accurate because I don’t know enough to be able to say, but it’s a lot more realistic than what you’re talking about. A people who could enjoy watching men women and children being raped to death by animals at the public stadium probably… Read more »
We live in a completely different media culture from ancient times – it’s irrelevant to compare the two on a consumption basis. Content was the same, yes, of course though. Sex is a very natural human behaviour, which can be strongly influenced by individualism. But our ways of sharing cultural ideas is markedly different. From a historical veiwpoint, we’re left with some writings and artifacts – hardly a comprehensive base to compare with today’s media saturated culture.
As a final inflammatory remark, I will say that I am far far far more convinced of the harm caused by porn by reading articles by Gary Wilson and his wife Marnia Robertson (see here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow ) than the arguments put forth here. Gary and Marnia seem to point to real problems that derive from porn rather than the religious / morality / anti porn feminism arguments against porn, all of which I’ve considered and largely thrown out as nonsensical, tyrannical, totalitarian or “too bad so sad, that’s life.” I guess I’m lucky because I’m a man, but somehow it… Read more »
“Gary Wilson and his wife Marnia Robertson . . .”
Why did you address Gary first? And why did you identify Marnia as Gary’s wife?
Why didn’t you address Marnia first? And why didn’t you identify Gary as Marnia’s husband?
When a woman and man write an article together, so many people assume that he dominated and she submitted. And even when a woman is the leader, so many people will put that man’s name first.
These little micro-putdowns are one reason why the feminist movement won’t go away.
Actually it’s because it’s Gary’s site and because Marnia told me he’s her husband.
But be offended if you want. Glad I could help!
“…When young men prefer online sex to real life relationships because online is so much easier…” Well duh! Who wants to do the whole song and dance and not get laid or not get the girl you wanted (or any girl for that matter)? Who wants to run the risk of getting her pregant? STD’s? Stigmatisation from feminists? Giving in to what God said you shouldn’t. Etc. etc. Etc. Shit, I was too afraid of women until I was about 26 or 27 to even approach girls or women. Frightening creatures and whole host of bad stuff seemed to come… Read more »
This screams of pure Darwinism dear Wet One. Of course porn has stolen, hijacked and held hostage (in a sense) the highly sought-after prize of having sex. That’s the whole problem with it, on the grand scale. We, as a global people, are quickly forgetting the fundamentals, and reasoning, of raising children as a significant aspect and purpose of our lives. We are living alone more and more often every year, possibly due to porn, either a male using and not wanting anyone real, or a woman who can’t find a real man. Although, if this is a way for… Read more »
My biggest criticism of modern feminist is their repeated denials that women are not Darwinist.
That they are some kind of egalitarian acceptance machines…
Which is complete and total bullsh@Tom Sprague.
There are masculinity shaming feminist out there that care more about attaining high value males than anything in this world.
Do I sit up and beg for their attention or do I learn to value my own survival?
By the way….
When the reporter asked..
“Well, just because we can, should we?”
All I could think of is “Man this chick is a Megalomaniacal control freak”
No clue what you’re on about Budmin. I’m wondering how you would respond to the question that you quoted, “Well, just because we can, should we?” What’s so mega-freak about that? Do you have a perspective to share or just diatribe?
How do we construct a healthy sexual culture that understands sex in the context of fostering healthy human relationships? This question posed in part 1 is it in a nutshell for me – I’ve been in a marriage with a now ex-hubby who had a severe porn addiction – he’d stay up to 3am, playing online games, watching porn, tossing off and eventually, it led to an affair. 2 year on, he single, still professes his love for me – porn addiction is ruining his life. Porn is part of our culture, but in its current form, its destroying families.… Read more »
Thanks for speaking up, and you’re exactly right. We DO need to keep the conversation going about porn addiction. My Inbox at PoSARC is filled every day from people such as yourself. And some men, too, whose wives or girlfriends can’t or won’t stop using sexual chat rooms, porn, etc. And gay people too, who say they’ve all but given up on their partners, who are preferring porn to real encounters with them. It’s so easy to dismiss this addiction but those of us who have been affected know all too well how very real it is. Sadly, the porn… Read more »
I think we would be best off endeavoring to construct a healthy sexual culture in which healthy relationships are understood to be relational and not necessarily sexual.
Or alternatively, we place serious and respectful emphasis on personal sexual exploration before a person gets into relationships, and explicit sexual negotiation during courtship.
You can’t have it both ways– you cannot ignore the very real considerations of sexual compatibility in a relationship– and at the same time demand sexuality be a matter of perfect accord, once the relationship is engaged.
I didn’t even make it past the first question. Let’s examine the classic “Loaded Question” logical fallacy contained therein: “Putting aside for a moment, that many porn users curiously morph into erotica-only users when pressed about the violence depicted in the great majority of online porn.” This is asserted, without any backing, as part of the question. And it is patently false. At best, this has confused quantity produced for quantity consumed, a key difference to be sure. At worst, the author has not bothered to do any research and is just reporting their own bias as fact. Looking at… Read more »
Mike, I just took a look at the link you provided, thanks for the research. The point that you are trying to make here is pretty quickly undermined by the facts that are presented. Your statement is based on millions of visits per month to a female strip site named Live Jasmine, which is said to be, by far, the most popular porn site on the internet. What is not said is that Live Jasmine is a pop-up ad, most always undesired and lame for most all viewers. The fact that it ranks high is not due to intentional visits… Read more »
Kenny, Perhaps one day you will understand the need for evidence. The reason we have religious violence is because different groups of people are willing to swallow arguments whole without thinking critically about them. I looked for the available evidence, and it looks like there’s at least some argument that the most visited porn sites (please read the Forbes article again, webcam sites in GENERAL do better, not just a specific one) are NOT violent ones. To counter act this NO EVIDENCE IS OFFERED. When you substitute rhetoric for evidence you are a zealot, and it is not worth listening… Read more »
Zealot? You are the one who is making extreme statements as if they are fact. I only stated that your fact was not accurate, that it was based on a pop-up. Do you get free rides in the short buses? I fully agree with you that very much of pornography is simply sexy and non-violent, that is what I was into. Maybe most of porn is non-violent, I don’t know because it’s difficult getting accurate facts, as you have proven. I did provide evidence of your statement being incorrect. Try being more accurate so you don’t get called out for… Read more »
Kenny, you are asserting that the alternative point of view is correct because there *might* be a flaw in the data collected in the research I linked to. You have hardly proven anything. Instead, you are presenting a typical logical fallacy “You are wrong, so I must be right.” You further responded by asking if I get “free rides on the short bus” in a comment where you ironically ask me to “tone it down.” I am unclear on why you believe I will be convinced by ad hominems. As for “false statements” I’ve yet to see any facts presented… Read more »
I agree. Women could learn a lot from understanding men and porn if they’d stop being threatened by it. There are women who run porn companies like PinkVisual.com has a female President