Lili Bee continues her interview with Dr. Robert Jensen about pornography and what it says about our society.
Read part one of the interview here.
Lili: Let’s switch gears a bit here, and talk about something that seems to come up a lot in discussion and on comment threads. It concerns the use of erotica vs. porn. Putting aside for a moment, that many porn users curiously morph into erotica-only users when pressed about the violence depicted in the great majority of online porn.
To me, this feels like cognitive dissonance—you know, the porn user claims to be a great guy or girl who just looooves, even worships women, but he has this super ability to compartmentalize his fantasies of porn that degrades women. Ahem. Ok, let’s put that on the shelf for now.
Can you talk about the difference between someone using erotica vs. someone using more hardcore porn? Would you consider it less damaging, equally damaging…what are your thoughts here?
Bob: The distinction between different forms of sexually explicit material—that world has been carved up in different ways: the old and sort of enduring one is the difference between erotica and pornography—the assertion that there is a category of sexually explicit material that is rooted in domination and subordination, and problematic that we’ll call pornography.
And then a category that’s rooted in mutuality and egalitarian dynamics which we’ll call erotica.
And the question is, Can we create a definition for a category that we call erotica that is not problematic?
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Can we create a definition for a category that we call erotica that is not problematic? … But I think the question to ask before that, is, “Why do people feel a need for this kind of material?”
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Well, one overall point I would make is that the need to create that category, I think, has to be questioned.
Because in my experience, what that does is, then people create this category of “the bad stuff” which they call porn, which then they don’t use.
And then all questions about their use of so-called erotica become irrelevant, because that’s “the good stuff” and that’s the stuff that’s okay.
And I think we need to challenge that.
And we have to ask the simple question: “In this culture, in this moment, why do so many people seem to need pictures?” That is, what is it about living in a mass-mediated culture in which more and more of our experience not only of sexuality but of our world, is mediated… that apparently drives people to need mediated images of sexuality? I mean, what’s going on? And that’s a fundamental question I think we should be asking of this culture. Now, my own view is that there’s not a single answer to the question of the appropriateness of what we’ll call erotica.
I find that in my own life, I don’t feel compelled to use it, I don’t see a need for it, and the reason is I think for me, at least, there is something about the nature of intimacy and sexuality that doesn’t translate to media when it’s represented in graphic, sexually explicit fashion. There’s something lost. There’s something about the nature of the experience that’s lost, and I choose not to do that. That’s my choice based on self-reflection, and a lot of thought about this. I don’t expect that everybody’s going to come to the same choice, but I think it’s a relevant question everybody should ask.
So if you ask me: Would I rather have people watching hardcore, graphic pornography in which women are routinely the subjects of cruelty and degradation, or graphic, sexually explicit material where there’s some level of mutuality, and an underlying egalitarian dynamic, yes, I would rather the latter.
But I think the question to ask before that, is, “Why do people feel a need for this kind of material?”
Now, that’s not to say that any depiction of sexuality is somehow inherently problematic. I would say that as long as people have a creative capacity, that is, as long as human beings have been able to represent the world in what we basically call art, there’s probably been art about human sexuality for the simple reason that much of our sexuality is mystery to us.
I mean, we understand the biology and the mechanics of it, but sexual drive and all those sorts of things are kind of mysterious, we don’t really understand it very well. That’s why there’s a lot of art about sex. Because we use art, we use our creative capacities, to explore those things we can no longer understand, that are bumped into the limits of traditional, rational, logical thought.
So when you explore something and you’ve reached the limits of how you can understand it through a more traditional, rational process, we often explore it through art, through our creative capacities. I would say that’s why there’s so much art about sex and so much art about God, because God is another concept that’s fundamentally a mystery to us. So we use art to explore those things and I think that’s healthy, I think that’s a part of the human condition.
But there’s a difference between that exploration and what I call contemporary pornography. I don’t think the goal of contemporary pornography is to explore. In fact, I think it has exactly the opposite effect. I’ve made this point often when people say pornography opens up their sexual imaginations.
My argument is it does exactly the opposite: it closes it down, because it channels one’s sexual imagination into a very formatted and I think, quite rigid conception of sex. Especially that kind of pornography rooted in male dominance. So, in the book I wrote, I write about this—that pornography doesn’t open doors, it closes doors; it’s like literally being in kind of a prison of the imagination.
And those are the things I think we have to talk about, rather than trying to create simple categories of: porn : bad, erotica : good, the using of erotica as being beyond questioning. The whole point of this is to open up conversation, not shut it down, and I think that the porn/erotica distinction too often actually shuts down difficult conversations.
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Lili: Well, what about people who say, “If you’ve looked online recently, you’d see there’s ninety million videos depicting every single sexual variation possible and left on my own, my imagination wouldn’t likely conjure this up. So in and of itself, porn is expanding my sexual imagination, not contracting it.”
Bob: The problem with that is that it treats sex like a mechanical act. The hardest sexuality is not tricks, from my point of view. It’s intimacy. I’ve even described sexuality as kind of a form of communication. It’s a way we communicate with another person, it’s a way we communicate with ourselves. If one thinks about the sexual experience as among the most meaningful in one’s life, it’s usually because you go beyond some connection to a person, it deepens your connection to a person.
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The hardest sexuality is not tricks, from my point of view. It’s intimacy…. And I don’t think that has anything to do with the mechanics of sex. I think that has to do with vulnerability and how open one is.
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And I don’t think that has anything to do with the mechanics of sex. I think that has to do with vulnerability and how open one is.
So the fact that you can look online and see sexual positions you might not have thought of, is to me, irrelevant and of no particular great benefit.
People have the creative capacity to engage in sexuality that meets their needs. We have that; we don’t need recipe books for that, self-help books or videos for that. Human beings have always had that capacity.
That ability to connect and deepen our experience with another person can be undermined by all sorts of things…like patriarchy, like individual psychopathology, or any number of things.
But the answer, to me, isn’t to create more movies or write more books about the mechanics of this.
The key, to me, is about returning to an understanding that sexuality is fundamentally about human communication and opening up people’s ability to communicate. And, in my experience, listening to literally, at this point, hundreds and hundreds of people talk about the effects of pornography in their lives, the overwhelming majority of those people, when they self-reflect, recognize that pornography has not enhanced their relationships with other people, but in fact, created impediments to those relationships.
And that’s what I think, in the end, is the thing we should keep talking about: What is the real effect in people’s lives of this kind of thing and how it’s used?
And the effects are variable. I always remind people there’s a lot of individual variations. You cannot say anything about all human beings but what you can do is look for trends and patterns. And the patterns, I think, about the use of pornography are quite clear at this point. I think they do create more impediments than they seem to remove impediments to that kind of intimacy, vulnerability and communication that to me, is at the core of sex.
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Lili: I’m also troubled by what I see as a real voyeurism in our culture, this entitlement to appropriate for ourselves imagery of sex for our “enjoyment.”
And I always ask the question, “Well, just because we can, should we?”
Often, the answers I’m met with are more accusation than anything else: “You’re being conservative.”
That unwillingness to probe into the nature of our behaviors, and attack instead, is deeply troubling to me.
Bob: I’ve said, partly in jest, is that the problem in this culture is that we’re over-mediated, over-marketed, and over-medicated. That is, in a consumer society, there’s a real sense when I say we’re over-medicated, that if there is some discomfort in your life, there must be a product to deal with it, that you can buy a solution to whatever it is that’s making you uncomfortable.
We’re over-marketed in the sense that the whole system is set up to sell us these things.
And we’re over-mediated in the sense that so much of our experience comes through screens, that we take that mediation to be the way we learn about the world.
You put all that together, and you get the phenomenon you’re talking about. The assumption that mediated sexuality, even mediated sexuality of our own lives, like a video camera trained on us, is somehow always positive.
And I think that one of the reasons that idea, which seems so foreign to me, is so widely accepted in the culture is precisely because of the culture: that culture of mediation, that culture of consumerism, that culture of medication, that culture that says, “If you can do it, you should do it.”
And of course, no society can survive that. That’s an ethic of destruction, an ethic of no-limits.
And no human community, no biological community can survive with a sense of no limits. And I think that’s at the core of this.
What are the limits on human communities, on human individuals…? Because there are limits.
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Lili: Right. And we clearly see the effects of that no-limits approach in the destruction we’ve wreaked on our environment, plundering the earth’s resources, polluting our lands, what, in effect, I’d call the dominator model run amok.
I work in the field of compulsive sexual behavior, specifically porn and sex addiction as it affects partners. And in this field, you’re trained to look for cues that signal addictive behavior. And denial is the predominant signifier there.
What I’m about to say may be construed as alarmist by some people, but when I see the vast wreckage created by sexuality that’s turned compulsive (and the evidence for this is undeniable now) I am alarmed that when we point it out, when we mention the consequences of that behavior piling up like so many cars in a bad car accident, and we’re met by just more denial, it’s hard not to believe we’ve become a nation of addicts stuck in deep denial.
Certainly we know about compulsive eating, gaming and shopping but more and more, sex is joining those ranks. And yet no one likes to talk about it, because it’s supposed to be “private” and as such, it stays vastly underreported. Our country’s dirty little secret.
So when you try to have a conversation about this, it most often deconstructs into black and white categories with little to no room for nuance.
Yet, the divorce statistics show that compulsive online sexual activity by one partner is the reason stated in the majority of divorce cases every year…that’s alarming! And this is coming from matrimonial lawyers.
When you have an over-$750 million dollar a year industry that sells and services internet monitoring and filtering software, 750 million dollars every year, and mind you, roughly HALF of that is installed by the person with the compulsion—not the spouse, and not the concerned parent…that speaks volumes about the way we’re using sex compulsively now, and that’s alarming.
Bob: Well let me talk a bit about the concept of addiction. For a long time, many of us who identify as feminists/anti-pornography activists, critics of the porn industry from a feminist point of view, many of us resisted the notion of addiction, and porn addiction.
Because we feared that it may have some meaning as metaphor, but in a culture like this, when you label something an addiction, it tends to get medicalized and dealt with through medical solutions.
And we didn’t want the underlying feminist critique about gender and power to be lost. And so for a long time I resisted the notion of pornography use as being addicting, in the sense that we would use that term for tobacco/nicotine or alcohol and drugs.
But two things have changed my view on that. One is, as you point out, the experiences of people who, whether it’s an addiction or not, are certainly engaged in addictive-like behavior patterns. That evidence is mounting, especially since the advent of the internet where access to pornography was easier, cheaper and more private than ever.
So, as you point out, if you talk to divorce lawyers and therapists, the rise of people acknowledging this, not just women talking to male partners with this problem, but men themselves acknowledging these addictive-like patterns, I think it’s clear that we’re seeing, what at least in common parlance, we can talk about as addiction. That is, it certainly produces behaviors that are similar to what we talk about as addiction in these other areas.
The other thing is the neuroscience research available now is changing and there are, with the advent of FMRI machines and very sophisticated neuroscience, there’s more evidence in fact, that in the brain itself, the responses to not only pornography but also gambling and other kinds of extreme behaviors that produce behaviors like that, does look a lot like addiction when we look at the brain scans on it.
Now, I’m not a neuroscientist so I don’t pretend to evaluate the science and I tend to be rather cautious; I don’t like to overdrive the evidence but at this point I’d say there’s no question that the lived experience of people, the trends we see people reporting about their experience, and the neuroscience makes it clear that we should consider pornography use as, if not addicting in the traditional sense that we would use that term, certainly something like that.
The habitual use of pornography, the difficulty of men who acknowledge they would like to stop using it, the patterns of denial you’re talking about and the effects on intimate relationships—I think all that’s pretty clear at this point. The evidence is piled up now for the past couple of decades certainly.
And the cultural denial, not just the individual denial—but the culture’s unwillingness to think about this, I used to say, “It’s just another sign of a culture in collapse”. There are a lot of signs of this culture in collapse right now—that fundamental human virtues that are necessary to sustain decent human relationships in community are being corroded.
And I think they’re being corroded by lots of things: by consumer capitalism, by patriarchy, all sorts of things, but that’s where we sit. There’s nothing alarmist about pointing to the evidence, there’s nothing alarmist about researching science and asking questions and coming to these conclusions.
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About Lili Bee
I didn’t even make it past the first question. Let’s examine the classic “Loaded Question” logical fallacy contained therein:
“Putting aside for a moment, that many porn users curiously morph into erotica-only users when pressed about the violence depicted in the great majority of online porn.”
This is asserted, without any backing, as part of the question.
And it is patently false.
At best, this has confused quantity produced for quantity consumed, a key difference to be sure. At worst, the author has not bothered to do any research and is just reporting their own bias as fact.
Looking at actual statistics, it has been found that the most commonly consumed type of internet pornography (by a wide margin) is a woman stripping on webcam while men talk to her. In other words, it has nothing to do with violence. You can see the research here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/julieruvolo/2011/09/07/how-much-of-the-internet-is-actually-for-porn/
One day, perhaps the critics of porn will actually get together and gather some statistics. Or just continue making unfounded claims…
Mike, I just took a look at the link you provided, thanks for the research. The point that you are trying to make here is pretty quickly undermined by the facts that are presented. Your statement is based on millions of visits per month to a female strip site named Live Jasmine, which is said to be, by far, the most popular porn site on the internet. What is not said is that Live Jasmine is a pop-up ad, most always undesired and lame for most all viewers. The fact that it ranks high is not due to intentional visits and is trash. I do not know the stats for intentional visits for more violent pornography, which is what the authors mention but it unfortunately can not be measured from this source that you’ve provided. The essence of what the authors are suggesting is quite interesting and is in need of understanding and discussion. Hopefully you can try reading it again, beyond the first lines that upset you.
Kenny,
Perhaps one day you will understand the need for evidence.
The reason we have religious violence is because different groups of people are willing to swallow arguments whole without thinking critically about them.
I looked for the available evidence, and it looks like there’s at least some argument that the most visited porn sites (please read the Forbes article again, webcam sites in GENERAL do better, not just a specific one) are NOT violent ones.
To counter act this NO EVIDENCE IS OFFERED.
When you substitute rhetoric for evidence you are a zealot, and it is not worth listening to a zealot.
Zealot? You are the one who is making extreme statements as if they are fact. I only stated that your fact was not accurate, that it was based on a pop-up. Do you get free rides in the short buses? I fully agree with you that very much of pornography is simply sexy and non-violent, that is what I was into. Maybe most of porn is non-violent, I don’t know because it’s difficult getting accurate facts, as you have proven. I did provide evidence of your statement being incorrect. Try being more accurate so you don’t get called out for making false statements. There is only one of us here being a zealot and resembling non-critical thinking. Tone it down. I’ll be glad to meet you in person to take this further.
Kenny, you are asserting that the alternative point of view is correct because there *might* be a flaw in the data collected in the research I linked to. You have hardly proven anything.
Instead, you are presenting a typical logical fallacy “You are wrong, so I must be right.”
You further responded by asking if I get “free rides on the short bus” in a comment where you ironically ask me to “tone it down.” I am unclear on why you believe I will be convinced by ad hominems.
As for “false statements” I’ve yet to see any facts presented in favor of the other side. The available research, while potentially imperfect, supports my point of view. I have not said anything false.
If there is research backing the viewpoint that “the majority of pornography is violent” I’d be glad to see it. Until such research materializes, I think it’s pretty clear who is making the false statements.
I agree. Women could learn a lot from understanding men and porn if they’d stop being threatened by it. There are women who run porn companies like PinkVisual.com has a female President
“…When young men prefer online sex to real life relationships because online is so much easier…”
Well duh! Who wants to do the whole song and dance and not get laid or not get the girl you wanted (or any girl for that matter)? Who wants to run the risk of getting her pregant? STD’s? Stigmatisation from feminists? Giving in to what God said you shouldn’t. Etc. etc. Etc. Shit, I was too afraid of women until I was about 26 or 27 to even approach girls or women. Frightening creatures and whole host of bad stuff seemed to come along with them. I’ve since learned that this is not necessarily the case, but I have definitely learned that it can be the case (from an ex I nearly married and from my best friend’s marriage that went nuclear for no good reason and destroyed his life. Luckily none of my friends have committed suicide by dint of their divorces, but that does happen, not that anyone cares of course unless its a murder suicide, but so it goes…).
Online porn is so simple and non negotiated. You hit up your favourite site, watch a vid, beat off and carry on with life and all of a young man’s life’s wonders. I suppose as a married man, it’s waaaay different, but again, it’s pretty damned complicated and you run the risk of giving up half your stuff and never seeing your kids (if you have them) again. Oh what a joy.
Also, online porn gives young men what they want! They wouldn’t make it if the market didn’t buy it. Ain’t capitalism grand? (there’s some sarcasm in there, but not much).
This screams of pure Darwinism dear Wet One. Of course porn has stolen, hijacked and held hostage (in a sense) the highly sought-after prize of having sex. That’s the whole problem with it, on the grand scale. We, as a global people, are quickly forgetting the fundamentals, and reasoning, of raising children as a significant aspect and purpose of our lives. We are living alone more and more often every year, possibly due to porn, either a male using and not wanting anyone real, or a woman who can’t find a real man. Although, if this is a way for the powers that be to attempt a profitable way to control population growth and to sedate the masses, it sure seems to be working. I do hope that our society can somehow learn to mitigate our social strife and encourage development of deeper intimacy, real love and healthy nurturing of each other.
My biggest criticism of modern feminist is their repeated denials that women are not Darwinist.
That they are some kind of egalitarian acceptance machines…
Which is complete and total bullsh@t.
There are masculinity shaming feminist out there that care more about attaining high value males than anything in this world.
Do I sit up and beg for their attention or do I learn to value my own survival?
By the way….
When the reporter asked..
“Well, just because we can, should we?”
All I could think of is “Man this chick is a Megalomaniacal control freak”
No clue what you’re on about Budmin. I’m wondering how you would respond to the question that you quoted, “Well, just because we can, should we?” What’s so mega-freak about that? Do you have a perspective to share or just diatribe?
How do we construct a healthy sexual culture that understands sex in the context of fostering healthy human relationships?
This question posed in part 1 is it in a nutshell for me – I’ve been in a marriage with a now ex-hubby who had a severe porn addiction – he’d stay up to 3am, playing online games, watching porn, tossing off and eventually, it led to an affair. 2 year on, he single, still professes his love for me – porn addiction is ruining his life.
Porn is part of our culture, but in its current form, its destroying families. We have to keep the debate raging, we have to keep researching and we have to understand how over-exposure to porn, especially for young, fertile, developing minds, can actually destroy a person’s chance for healthy adult relationships.
Thanks for speaking up, and you’re exactly right. We DO need to keep the conversation going about porn addiction. My Inbox at PoSARC is filled every day from people such as yourself. And some men, too, whose wives or girlfriends can’t or won’t stop using sexual chat rooms, porn, etc. And gay people too, who say they’ve all but given up on their partners, who are preferring porn to real encounters with them.
It’s so easy to dismiss this addiction but those of us who have been affected know all too well how very real it is. Sadly, the porn industry is now racking up women addicts. We NEED to talk about this and stop splitting hairs about all the side points one can make here.
Sorry you had to go through this, as someone who went through it too….there are thousands of us out there and we will NOT stop exposing this malady that’s destroying relationships and lives.
I think we would be best off endeavoring to construct a healthy sexual culture in which healthy relationships are understood to be relational and not necessarily sexual.
Or alternatively, we place serious and respectful emphasis on personal sexual exploration before a person gets into relationships, and explicit sexual negotiation during courtship.
You can’t have it both ways– you cannot ignore the very real considerations of sexual compatibility in a relationship– and at the same time demand sexuality be a matter of perfect accord, once the relationship is engaged.
As a final inflammatory remark, I will say that I am far far far more convinced of the harm caused by porn by reading articles by Gary Wilson and his wife Marnia Robertson (see here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow ) than the arguments put forth here. Gary and Marnia seem to point to real problems that derive from porn rather than the religious / morality / anti porn feminism arguments against porn, all of which I’ve considered and largely thrown out as nonsensical, tyrannical, totalitarian or “too bad so sad, that’s life.” I guess I’m lucky because I’m a man, but somehow it doesn’t seem that way to me. No regular sex with a live human female until my 30′s? That’s good? WTF? So terrified of women because of the endless droning on and on and on about how my very existence oppresses them (even though I’m more than likely the one to get completely bent over at the courthouse and lose my kids (had I any))? Dangerous waters dallying with women.
It’s one of the reasons that the following sayings have deep resonance:
“If it flies floats of f**ks, it’s cheaper to rent.”
“You don’t pay them for sex, you pay them to leave.”
Misogynistic? From a certain point of view perhaps. However, there is some real world male experience that underlies these sayings. Some men are wimps that can’t handle relationships. Other men get completely bent over and anally violated. I’ve managed to avoid the latter but some days I wonder if it isn’t just a matter of time.
Thankfully, these days, I look into my sweetie’s eyes, listen to her voice and feel confident and optimistic that the bad stuff that can happen won’t happen to us.
“Gary Wilson and his wife Marnia Robertson . . .”
Why did you address Gary first? And why did you identify Marnia as Gary’s wife?
Why didn’t you address Marnia first? And why didn’t you identify Gary as Marnia’s husband?
When a woman and man write an article together, so many people assume that he dominated and she submitted. And even when a woman is the leader, so many people will put that man’s name first.
These little micro-putdowns are one reason why the feminist movement won’t go away.
Actually it’s because it’s Gary’s site and because Marnia told me he’s her husband.
But be offended if you want. Glad I could help!
Oh yeah, and a simple answer to this question:
“In this culture, in this moment, why do so many people seem to need pictures?”
Because we always have. Ever heard of Pompeii? Erotica in the ancient world (say like the carving in that holy place in India and the Kama Sutra). It’s never been any different. It’s old ideas in a new medium. Nothing to see here folks. I think that our culture (moreso in the U.S. than some other places), it’s been put so under wraps that it seems odd that it’s bursting out everywhere.
Well, it was everywhere in Pompeii and that was just regular life until Vesuvius blew up and buried the city. Somehow, in more modern times we’ve grown rather less overt about these things.
The artistic murals, mosaics and art which adorned our ancient civilizations were depicting these sensual and sexual delights for the sake of enticing them to the enjoyments of one another. The difference in todays culture is that the “art” of pornography is instead, more often replacing the other.
I don’t believe that for a second. It completely fails to square with what I learned of ancient Rome and Greece in my classics classes at the University. Also, have you ever seen the show Spartacus, Blood and Sand? That’s more like a depiction of what life was like back then. I won’t say it was totally accurate because I don’t know enough to be able to say, but it’s a lot more realistic than what you’re talking about. A people who could enjoy watching men women and children being raped to death by animals at the public stadium probably weren’t too reserved about enjoying sex on a grand scale. Especially since they had real bona fide slaves with absolutely nothing to be ashamed of because it was totally legal. That’s a rather different world with rather different rules than the one we’re talking about where I was afraid for most of my life of even approaching women for any kind of relationship.
We live in a completely different media culture from ancient times – it’s irrelevant to compare the two on a consumption basis. Content was the same, yes, of course though. Sex is a very natural human behaviour, which can be strongly influenced by individualism. But our ways of sharing cultural ideas is markedly different. From a historical veiwpoint, we’re left with some writings and artifacts – hardly a comprehensive base to compare with today’s media saturated culture.
“The extreme nature of some of the acts in pornography, the intensity of the cruelty and degradation to women, the racism of it, I mean all of it kind of defies the imagination.”
Ummm what? Again, I refer you to my links above. Then again, I’ve made a conscious decision not to delve too deeply lest a balrog be unleashed. I know what you’re talking about. I know it’s out there. It is not mainstream.
As for racism, how about that U.S. president of yours and the reaction of the U.S. people too him. It’s kinda pretty isn’t it? Anyways…
As for this:
“We live in a world where women are bought and sold for male sexual pleasure on a daily basis. In some places it can be on the street, where you can buy and sell not only adult women but girls…and boys.”
While this is true in some parts of the world, if you mean that you can buy the person and not just sex with the person, that ain’t North America or Western Europe (which is where I assume you’re talking about generally). No need to conflate what goes on in the worst shitholes on earth to what goes on in any North American city as if they are exactly the same thing and exactly the same place that the readers of this site live and work in. Yeah, there are sex tourists, but no one smuggles children home in their suitcase as their favourite sex toy from Thailand souvenir.
You really should clarify that comment because you’re starting to sound, ummm (I hate to use this word, but it’s so apt) hysterical. Seriously. Not denying these things happen in the world, but to suggest it happens all the time here in North America is just hysterics and nonsense. (ooh boy. gonna get flamed for this post.
It does happen all the time in North America though. The sex trade industry is big here, and half the time that prostitute you bought may be a victim of that very sex trade and you will never know. Here are some links for proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCo_PVUqqTY
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-11-25/opinion/carr.human.trafficking_1_trafficking-victims-protection-act-tvpa-lena?_s=PM:OPINION
http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-10-06/news/17316911_1_trafficking-victims-human-trafficking-new-owners
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1596778&page=1
And it’s not just children either but women unwillingly thrown into the fray through coercion; johns buying them will never know they are a victim. Half the time, they don’t care.
When you say victim of the sex trade what do you mean? Do you mean that the person was bought and sold and is owned by someone else? I think that is very rare and I need some evidence that this occurs on a wide scale. If that’s the case, why don’t they (the adult women in any event) just shout for help on the street? Are they totally incompetent? Are they children? I assume not.
I have actually seen reported cases of adult women being kidnapped to be dragged into the sex trade, but like I say, that’s rare and makes the news when it happens (at least in my neck of the world). Prostitution of all sorts is as common as pie and isn’t reported much. As for what’s out there in the mainstream media (you posted an ABC link thus my comment), I don’t believe most of it. It doesn’t seem to square with rational analysis of the issue.
On the child exploitation front, I don’t know. I’ve never seen a child in the venues I’ve attended (strip clubs etc.), but I understand that they are out there (especially those who have no place to live and engage in “survival sex”). However, the organized exploitation of children (or teenagers) is somewhat rarer and the police here (at any rate) seem to go after those criminals fairly agressively.
Note, I am not in the States and prostitution is legal where I’m at.
Prostitution happens all the time here, but let’s not confuse that with sex slavery. That’s why I asked that the author clarify so as to not conflate two rather different things. It’s a real question whether prostitution should even be illegal. Sex slavery and the buying and selling of sexual slaves should unquestionably be illegal. We can’t even have that discussion if we say the two are exactly the same thing.
“According to the U.S. Department of Justice, nearly 85% of victims in confirmed sex trafficking cases are U.S. citizens – mostly homeless kids. While often perceived as an international issue, American children are being trafficked throughout our country every day.”
http://www.abolishchildtrafficking.org/
No, prostitution and trafficking are pretty much the same thing.
Really, so the ranches in Nevada are engaged in trafficking? Why aren’t the authorities cracking down on that?
“No, prostitution and trafficking are pretty much the same thing.”
That is utter bullshit on several levels. It denies that there is a such thing as *non-sexual* trafficking, when in fact this is the majority. And it denies that fact that many sex workers are far from slaves, and will tell you in no uncertain terms that they aren’t if you were to ask them.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you’re pushing this line, you are very much part of the problem, because you’ve taken the very real problem of forced labor (both sexual and nonsexual) and co-opted it over to a phony moral crusade.
There’s an outstanding paper out on this very subject, BTW: “Rescuing Trafficking from Ideological Capture: Prostitution Reform and Anti-Trafficking Law and Policy”: http://www.law.upenn.edu/journals/lawreview/articles/volume158/issue6/Chuang158U.Pa.L.Rev.1655(2010).pdf
“We, as a global people, are quickly forgetting the fundamentals, and reasoning, of raising children as a significant aspect and purpose of our lives.”
Prescriptive. Please don’t tell me what the purpose for my life is or ought to be. If everyone wanted to stop breeding tomorrow, they truly have no obligation to do otherwise. Humanity has MANY responsibilities, and I’d never absolve them of such; but I never once understood reproduction to be one of them.
If people can be celibate, single, or in non-monogamous relationships in a healthy, satisfying way (mutually for all parties involved, of course), then I can’t think of one good reason why they shouldn’t.
As for any other arguments regarding porn, I’m not here to debate whether they’re right or wrong; I know there are very good arguments against porn, and there are very good arguments FOR porn. There are types of porn I find offensive as a woman, and there are types that don’t offend me. Porn has negative consequences and positive consequences — and there might be a net of either one over the other. I will give you ALL of that.
Just, let’s stay away from the “should” when we start talking about individual lives, personal goals, and so on. We have enough problems in the world instigated by one handful of people supposing they know what this other group of people “ought” to do, or think, or want. Don’t do that.
I concur.
There was not a “should” or “ought” in my comment above, Alex. I absolutely do not care what you or anyone does with their genitals and reproduction as long as it doesn’t intrude into my personal space. In looking at any and every biological creature on this planet, it seems that the natural imperative is to survive and to then reproduce. That is what I was addressing in my comment. I believe that it’s irresponsible for humans to have a bunch of kids during an already overpopulated world with a serious depletion of natural and sustainable resources. That is my opinion that I will keep. You do not need to change your opinion, whatever that may be.
However anyone uses pornography or sexuality is their own experience, unless it violates established social laws and boundaries. I am not telling anyone what to do. If porn or your sexual preferences are keeping you, as a biological creature, from your biological imperative, I am calling that a Darwin Award, meaning that your line of DNA may not continue, as a natural organism. That’s your choice and I support that. I apologize if this seems rude but the colloquial fits.
Plus one.
I’m imeprssed. You’ve really raised the bar with that.
I’m intrigued that Bee & Jensen are uncritically using the fact that “compulsive online sexual activity by one partner is the reason stated in the majority of divorce cases every year”. Given that most divorce cases are contentious as best, lawyers will use anything and everything to try to gain an edge. If a partner has looked at online porn, that’s easily magnified into “compulsivity” in order to try to smear the other person.
Further, unless a claim of sexual compulsivity is made by a trained therapist, it’s likely to be the result of misinformation or fear. I’ve spoken with many people who were convinced that their partner’s were sexually compulsive simply because they had a difference in their levels of interest in sex, not because the partner with a higher interest was outside the statistical norm. That sort of thing can easily play out in divorce cases, of course.
So as alarming as they make things sound, I think both Bee & Jensen would do well to practice a little critical thinking instead of swallowing these specious arguments.
A citation would have been nice. I’m getting really tired of feminists on this site positing their opinion as fact without any citations.
Here is an interesting link:
ht tp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/
This is the largest divorce study I have ever heard of. 46,000 divorces covering 4 states.
REasons given by women for divorcing:
Infidelity Not a Major Factor
Exploitation Not a Factor
“Because I’ve Outgrown Him”
“Because I Don’t Need Him”
“Because I Will Win”
Statistically, author Margaret Brinig says, women who filed for divorce most often felt confident they would receive advantageous custody agreements. “The question of custody absolutely swamps all the other variables,” Brinig said. “Our study found that children are the most important asset in a marriage and the partner who expects to get custody is by far the one most likely to file for divorce.” Brinig adds that not only are women certain they will get custody, THEY DIVORCE SPECIFICALLY in order to “gain FULL CONTROL OVER THE CHILDREN.”
Compulsive behaviors of any kind don’t even make it onto the list.
Women initiate divorce 66% more often than men. Women and men know that women have an immense advantage in divorce laws. Women are actually dis-incentivized to work through minor problems.
If the authors are truly concerned about the affect of divorce upon children, then they should sign on board to Fathers and Families shared parenting movement. This would remove incentive from fathers and mothers to seek divorce as the first option when faced with problems and work them out instead.
Here is your citation, John-
“In 2003 the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers reported that over half of all their divorce cases that year resulted from “excessive interest in online porn”. -P. Paul, Pornified.
In the eight years since that statistic, porn has, of course, only exploded even more so there’s no reason to believe these numbers have gone down.
The other issues you raise are serious ones and in need of real discourse, however, minimizing the prevalence of online sexual compulsivity as a strong factor in divorces does a great disservice to the many who have stood by their spouses in hopes for recovery. And in the majority of cases I talk with personally in my business, the couple doesn’t have children. Still, the issues you raise about custody are important, indeed and I’d love to see more written about just this.
Some common sense:
Divorcing litigants are going to try and besmirch each other for better positioning.
Rather than relying on lawyers who are part of the problem of making divorce expensive and contentious I would put my faith in an anonymous study of 46,000 divorces then 1 quote from a person who sees the maximum divisiveness and (potentially false or over-blown) claims to better their position, or to paint the other litigant as un-safe to be around the children.
Do you have a link to this article? Is this a study or just a quote from one person organization? Common sense says there is going to be a difference between what a lawyers sees, and what happens in anonymous surveys. I would put my trust more in the survey.
This is analogous to the difference between police reports and anonymous surveys when looking at rates of female on male DV. Men are too ashamed to press charges of DV from women. When you look at arrest records DV against men is seen to be under 10%. When you look at anonymous surveys it appears to be 1/3rd to half.
Hi John- The quote is from a book, not an online source, though the book’s probably available online. The name of it is Pornified, author P. Paul, who is a statistician. In any event, the quote was released by the American Assn of Matrimonial Lawyers, not an individual attorney or firm. If that stat was a tool used against the spouse wanting custody, then it would seem to be in their interest to release new stats every year. However, despite repeated phone calls to them, they will not release those statistics for more recent years. Don’t you find that pretty interesting? Many of us do.
I know you have a case against feminists, as you say here in your posts, but to keep this all in context: compulsive online sexual activity is equal opportunity nowadays. Females are responsible for one third of visits to porn sites, and of those females, 17% are addicted, by their own admission. So the gender argument seems to fall flat here since a father who wants custody could use that against his wife if she’s the one with the addiction, no? It seems unlikely a court would award custody of children to a female sex addict, just because she’s the mother. I don’t mean to water down your anger about what seems like definite injustice in father’s rights cases, but I think as this particular stat is concerned, it’s probably not the smoking gun. Hope this was even a little bit helpful, And please do write a piece about this; it seems many of us know about this only peripherally.
Hi Lilli,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Accepting your supposition that porn addiction would cut both ways, then it stands to reason that your stat regarding the matrimonial assn of lawyers doesn’t pass the smiff test.
Since mothers get sole custody 80% and shared 14% (to fathers sole custody 6% and shared 14%) I would say that the over-riding factor regarding child custody CAN’T be porn addiction (or as you point out custody would be more evenly split).
It seems that the more likely determining factor is biased laws and anti-father courts.
Also, since the Matrimonial Assn of Lawyers don’t seem willing to repeat that claim, I don’t know if that stands as a really credible source (as you somewhat conceded).
I do however agree that porn can be a problem–and for some a very large problem. It doesn’t appear that compulsory masturbation to online material, or any material (of the kind that disrupts productive behavior and ruins marriages) is as large a problem as you seem to think.
I would definitely like to peruse any more information or links you have on the matter.
Hi Charlie- You said: “Further, unless a claim of sexual compulsivity is made by a trained therapist, it’s likely to be the result of misinformation or fear. I’ve spoken with many people who were convinced that their partner’s were sexually compulsive simply because they had a difference in their levels of interest in sex, not because the partner with a higher interest was outside the statistical norm. ”
We actually do NOT diagnose, but refer out to CSATs, Certified Sex Addiction Therapists. They are the only ones qualified to make a diagnosis.
Dr. Jensen and Lili, thank you for your reflection, wisdom and insight. Dr. Jenson you hit the nail on the head when you said: “The hardest sexuality is not tricks…it’s intimacy.” This is the crux of the matter. We’re sooooo polarized and jaded about not enough sex, too much sex, bad sex, graphic sex; women hating men, men hating women….the list keeps going, that we can’t see what’s in between the lines. The “humanity” of sex as something that takes two mature, reflective and respectful partners to accomplish whether they be straight or gay. And because we seem to have lost our way in setting boundaries and knowing what feels right and is not fed to us by the media of what sex should be like, Lili’s sight at PoSARC tries to assist those who are indeed feeling a bit lost and in need of some guidance.
I must say it is a struggle to stay in conversation with those who refuse to believe that sex trafficking, sex slavery, porn addiction/compulsivity exist in statistically meaningful numbers. I will because we simply must keep talking until we hear each other.
I have worked with partners/spouses of sex addicts/NPDs for over four years and the numbers here in Atlanta are NOT small or insignificant. I am also an activist for the abolition of sex slavery and sex/human trafficking. That is happening here also. Sadly, just last week the two causes intersected. One of the sex addicts (whose spouse I have worked with) was arrested at a strip club for attempting to solicit a sex slave for a two-month overseas trip he had planned. Tragic for the spouse and children.
Actually, I want—with every fiber of my being—those who choose alternative sexual arrangements to be quite frank about their inclinations and associate with each other. I read Charlie’s blog about his take on the sex-positive motions. That was helpful. I want all those whose shame is high enough that they are not up to being truthful to align themselves with like-minded persons and become entirely whatever it is they want to become and/or do.
Here’s a surprise: I have participated in a pretty wide variety of sex play that involves “consenting adults.” And it was coerced or at best coming from a compromised ability to stand up for myself. I sold out over and over again until I reached a low that I would not wish upon anyone. I cannot help but wonder how much of that same selling out (especially on the part of women) is going on in sex-positive communities.
Robert Jensen speaks powerfully on the notion of choice in his book “Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity”—in short, that the degree of power one has in a relationship and community determines the that person’s ability to actually make a truly free choice. Women in a patriarchy do NOT have the same choices men do. Especially sexually.
Making rebellious sexual choices is as enslaving as obeying the rules without questions. Discovering one’s most genuine preferences is a very subtle inward process for women.
Before I get toasted for being sex-negative, let me re-state that I actually want those who refer to themselves as sex-positives to continue to strive for honesty and introspection and to NOT be shamed for their activities. I also want trauma counseling available for those like me who had weak boundaries. Some of my experiences were deeply traumatizing.
Conversely, those whose sexuality is being shamed from religious dogmatists deserve trauma therapy also. We are walking a thin line and sniping at each other must eventually become conversation. I remind myself over and over again that this current era of contention is just the part where pent-up frustration and anger is spewed before all sides are spent and we join together to honor all as humans who are exactly where they are right now.
Who said that “sex trafficking, sex slavery,” don’t ” exist in statistically meaningful numbers”? I agree that these things occur, but I don’t really think it’s on every street corner?
Why do I think this?
1. Every time there’s a child porn bust, I hear about it.
2. Every time there’s a case of sexual slavery in my city I hear about it.
3. I hear about #1 about 50 or 100 times more often than I hear about #2.
I don’t think that police just let sex slavery or human trafficking slide and I know they are pretty vigorous about child porn. Maybe I’m being too trusting, but I just don’t buy that. Too many female cops and too much focus on it (especially knowadays).
Also, having bee involved in the scene at a certain level and being in conversation with those at other levels, NO ONE condones sexual slavery nor child prostitution. If it was nearly as widespread as some suggest, I should have heard waaaay more about it than I have. Waaay more.
I’ve also talked to the sex workers themselves, and they don’t suggest that its common at all (this is from those both still in the industry and those out of it).
Again I’m not saying it doesn’t happen because it does. But it’s not nearly as common as run of the mill prostitution. That’s why I say, don’t conflate the two.
Then again, maybe in the States things are different. But until I start seeing the media firestorms from the arrests, I find it hard to believe that it occurs on some kind of super massive scale. Where’s the evidence?
Again, I’m talking North America. Other parts of the world, it’s a whole different ball game (like where families sell their daughters into prostitution. WTF is up with that????) but in North America? Show me the exploited by their hundreds of thousands. And if you’re going to suggest that cops don’t go after this kind of thing, well, maybe it’s time for another one of those sting operation TV show that actually targets the traffickers if they’re really that common.
Alternatively, show me the website where all these johns are getting their info and reviews on where to find the children that are being trafficked. There’d have to hundreds of men on such a forum. I’ve never heard of one (which isn’t to say it isn’t out there) and there should have been one or more by now that’s been busted. Child porn rings get busted all the time. It can’t be that much harder to bust similar rings can it?
“Women in a patriarchy do NOT have the same choices men do. Especially sexually.”
Putting aside the problematic concept of “The Patriarchy”, which comes across as simply an all-purpose justification for the less savory aspects of some types of feminism, the solutions I see coming from Jensen, Dines, and the rest are still fundamentally wrong. Do we deal with many women’s relative lack of choices by the lowest-common-denominator restrictions on everybody’s choices? Or do we raise the power of women up so they have more meaningful choices? I say the latter, and this is very much what sex-positive feminism is about.
Here are some citations:
ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails
The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite any woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds.
http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm
This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way to make money for un-skilled labor, best way to travel and see the country, meet new people, and had much better life and work accomodations (and less exploitation) than in other unskilled labor.
The author also states that due to the upcoming world cup in Africa and resultant crack-down on potential upcoming sex trafficking, authorities and government are actually preventing the free movement of young women. In other words, this is actually used as an excuse to invade into peoples lives who aren’t even in sex trafficking and never have been.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8318629.stm
Here is an interviewer calling government to task (in the UK) and saying that the over-blown hype regarding sex trafficking are outright fraudulent.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201401_pf.html
Here is a wash post article regarding the failure of the UK crack-down to find 1 case of sex trafficking.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2850/
Here is a link on the 2006 German world cup crack-down on sex trafficking. Early estimates by feminist organizations stated 40,000 to 100k foreign women would be sex-trafficked to Germany for the world cup.
Utilizing 100′s of 1000′s of police man-hours an incredible 5 cases were found.
This nothing but a marriage between big government (bureaucrats never pass up an opportunity to over-blow a situation (WMD’s in Iraq anybody?) ) and feminists whose favorite whipping post is male sexuality. As if female sexuality is never detrimental. Most of the sex traffickers in the USA are madams, i.e. women oppressing women.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Here are some citations:
ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails
The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite any woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds.
ht tp://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm
This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way to make money for un-skilled labor, best way to travel and see the country, meet new people, and had much better life and work accomodations (and less exploitation) than in other unskilled labor.
The author also states that due to the upcoming world cup in Africa and resultant crack-down on potential upcoming sex trafficking, authorities and government are actually preventing the free movement of young women. In other words, this is actually used as an excuse to invade into peoples lives who aren’t even in sex trafficking and never have been.
ht tp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8318629.stm
Here is an interviewer calling government to task (in the UK) and saying that the over-blown hype regarding sex trafficking are outright fraudulent.
ht tp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201401_pf.html
Here is a wash post article regarding the failure of the UK crack-down to find 1 case of sex trafficking.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2850/
Here is a link on the 2006 German world cup crack-down on sex trafficking. Early estimates by feminist organizations stated 40,000 to 100k foreign women would be sex-trafficked to Germany for the world cup.
Utilizing 100′s of 1000′s of police man-hours an incredible 5 cases were found.
This nothing but a marriage between big government (bureaucrats never pass up an opportunity to over-blow a situation (WMD’s in Iraq anybody?) ) and feminists whose favorite whipping post is male sexuality. As if female sexuality is never detrimental.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Here are some citations:
ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails
The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite any woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds.
http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm
This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way to make money for un-skilled labor, best way to travel and see the country, meet new people, and had much better life and work accomodations (and less exploitation) than in other unskilled labor.
The author also states that due to the upcoming world cup in Africa and resultant crack-down on potential upcoming sex trafficking, authorities and government are actually preventing the free movement of young women. In other words, this is actually used as an excuse to invade into peoples lives who aren’t even in sex trafficking and never have been.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8318629.stm
Here is an interviewer calling government to task (in the UK) and saying that the over-blown hype regarding sex trafficking are outright fraudulent.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201401_pf.html
Here is a wash post article regarding the failure of the UK crack-down to find 1 case of sex trafficking.
h ttp://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2850/
Here is a link on the 2006 German world cup crack-down on sex trafficking. Early estimates by feminist organizations stated 40,000 to 100k foreign women would be sex-trafficked to Germany for the world cup.
Utilizing 100′s of 1000′s of police man-hours an incredible 5 cases were found.
This nothing but a marriage between big government (bureaucrats never pass up an opportunity to over-blow a situation (WMD’s in Iraq anybody?) ) and feminists whose favorite whipping post is male sexuality. As if female sexuality is never detrimental. Most of the sex traffickers in the USA are madams, i.e. women oppressing women.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Here are some citations:
ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails
The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite any woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds.
ht tp://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm
This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way to make money for un-skilled labor, best way to travel and see the country, meet new people, and had much better life and work accomodations (and less exploitation) than in other unskilled labor.
The author also states that due to the upcoming world cup in Africa and resultant crack-down on potential upcoming sex trafficking, authorities and government are actually preventing the free movement of young women. In other words, this is actually used as an excuse to invade into peoples lives who aren’t even in sex trafficking and never have been.
ht tp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8318629.stm
Here is an interviewer calling government to task (in the UK) and saying that the over-blown hype regarding sex trafficking are outright fraudulent.
ht tp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201401_pf.html
Here is a wash post article regarding the failure of the UK crack-down to find 1 case of sex trafficking.
ht tp://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2850/
Here is a link on the 2006 German world cup crack-down on sex trafficking. Early estimates by feminist organizations stated 40,000 to 100k foreign women would be sex-trafficked to Germany for the world cup.
Utilizing 100′s of 1000′s of police man-hours an incredible 5 cases were found.
This nothing but a marriage between big government (bureaucrats never pass up an opportunity to over-blow a situation (WMD’s in Iraq anybody?) ) and feminists whose favorite whipping post is male sexuality. As if female sexuality is never detrimental. Most of the sex traffickers in the USA are madams, i.e. women oppressing women.
It’s things like this that cause me to wonder about how much “sex slavery goes on.” As I said before, I have no doubt that it does (as noted above it was found at the 2006 World Cup in Germany), but I don’t think that it happens in massive numbers. We would see more evidence if it did. Rather like child porn, where a week doesn’t go by without hearing about a child porn bust somewhere. Unless you actually believe that cops don’t investigate these kinds of things or that sex slavery victims are completely unable to ask for help, or that the johns that see them have absolutely no souls whatsoever and would absolutely refuse 100% to help them.
I just don’t buy that.
I have a question: When you talk about the violence depicted… in online porn, what are you thinking of?
Terre Spencer:
Here are some citations:
ht tp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails
The largest ever crack-down on sex trafficking in the UK failed to find one case. This despite UK law stating any foreign woman in the sex trade who claims to be forcefully trafficked will get a fast-track to citizenship and a hefty pay-out from victim’s compensation funds.
ht tp://www.londonmet.ac.uk/research-units/iset/projects/esrc-migrant-workers.cfm
This is a study based on interviews with 100 foreign women in the sex industry in the UK. Per the research a tiny minority feel coerced. Many decided to enter the sex trade after other jobs. They decided that it was the best way to make money for un-skilled labor, best way to travel and see the country, meet new people, and had much better life and work accomodations (and less exploitation) than in other unskilled labor.
The author also states that due to the upcoming world cup in Africa and resultant crack-down on potential upcoming sex trafficking, authorities and government are actually preventing the free movement of young women. In other words, this is actually used as an excuse to invade into peoples lives who aren’t even in sex trafficking and never have been.
ht tp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8318629.stm
Here is an interviewer calling government to task (in the UK) and saying that the over-blown stats regarding sex trafficking are outright fraudulent.
ht tp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201401_pf.ht ml
Here is a wash post article regarding the failure of the UK crack-down to find 1 case of sex trafficking.
ht tp://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2850/
Here is a link on the 2006 German world cup crack-down on sex trafficking. Early estimates by feminist organizations stated 40,000 to 100k foreign women would be sex-trafficked to Germany for the world cup.
Utilizing 100′s of 1000′s of police man-hours an incredible 5 cases were found.
This is nothing but a marriage between big government (bureaucrats never pass up an opportunity to over-blow a situation (WMD’s in Iraq anybody?) to grow their departments) and feminists whose favorite whipping post is male sexuality. As if female sexuality is never detrimental.
This just occurred to me: One of the sex addicts (whose spouse I have worked with) was arrested at a strip club for attempting to solicit a sex slave
there are some extremely important words in that sentence: one is “arrested” and the other is “attempting”
As in, whatever his fantasy was, he didn’t get what he was asking for. because mostly– it’s just a fantasy, nobody actually gets to buy sex slaves. They just think they can.
As a woman who wants to be “sex positive” in the sense of having a healthy, uninhibited, intimate sex life with someone I love and care about, the thing I struggle with is how to find a sex-positive relationship that isn’t “pornified” at some level. When every man I meet has probably watched 1000x more sexual acts on film than he has ever experienced, how do I compete with that? What is special to him about my body when he has seen 1000′s of other women’s bodies before mine (bodies which are probably much more appealing than mine)? Does he believe, from watching tons of porn, that sexual fulfillment depends on maximizing one’s repertoire of extreme sexual techniques? In a world awash in graphic porn, is there any mystery and enchantment left in our sexuality? These are the kinds of thoughts that go through my head, without any good answers.
I see your point JIll. There is a solution to that issue which no one will accept. Start normalizing and having sex a whole lot earlier. Like at age 14 or so (both boys and girls ). That doesn’t fly in modern life due to economic and legal factors.
Otherwise, if men (and increasingly women) are waiting to have sex until 25 when they are economically able to handle it and “mature” enough to handle it, well, porn will have already set in and any woman who feels as you do Jill is simply beat. On the other hand, guys like me, if we can’t have sex with women, we will start with the Sears cataogue or Victoria Secret catalogue or whatever we can get our hands on and it simply goes from there. Our society as constructed is not normal in this regard (either in terms of social norms or concepts of maturity, sexuality and economic independence). There’s no getting around it in the short term.
And with respect to mystery and enchantment? What are you talking about? You take high school biology and the mystery and enchantment is done. You do it half a dozen times and it’s done (pretty much, which isn’t to say it ain’t fun, just that there’s no mystery anymore. Could still be enchanting though.
). If you want to keep the mystery, keep humping a new person every night. It gets old after awhile, but there’s always the mystery of what will you get. Enchantment, eh, that’s more a matter of skill and quality of the lay IMHO. If she (or he for that matter) is all that and a bag of chips in bed and has dozens of tricks up his or her sleeve, well that’s enchanting. If she (or he) is dead fish, well, that get’s old real fast.
But maybe that’s just me.
As for what’s special about your body Jill is the fact that you’re in it and you’re the woman he’s with at the time. Make an impression and he’ll remember.
I’ve seen gazillions of bodies. I’ve been with, in person, a few dozen. The ones I remember are my past SO’s, the first and the most skillful ones. 10′s of them were very beautiful, but to be honest, I don’t really remember what they even look like other than that they were hot (oh and one did really look like Lara Croft from Tomb Raider who was DA BOMB in the sack but she was unusual that way and not the best looking of them all). The one I still think of most is my lovely sweetie. She’s the most rocking bestest looking of them all hands down.
I guess another point Jill is that you will NEVER WIN the looks competition game (especially with two dimensional images that can be photoshopped and modified to what is simply unnatural). There will always be someone more physically beautiful than you, if not in the present, tehn eventually. That’s just the way it is.
You’re better off learning how to suck a golf ball through a garden, tie cherry stems with your tongue, do a million kegel exercises (that one’s pretty cool), shoot ping pong balls out of your woo hoo or something really interesting than worry about your looks. There is a real ray of hope in the fact that for “every beautiful woman, there’s some guy tired of screwing her.” If you’re more than just beautiful, a guy will get less tired, less quickly (if at all).
Ah… I’ve probably said too much and will shut up now. Sigh…
I’m hearing you Jill – I have a very similar want and stance. When their brains are awash and eventually hard-wired by all those tantalizing, sexy, hard-core images, real-life just doesn’t seem to cut it anymore… I’m still confident I can find a partner who has a healthy porn usage – I’ve given up my quest to meet a man who doesn’t consume porn. I’m not sure many of those exist…
I hear you, Jill. And it IS a big issue for a lot of us, which is why I’ve written the articles I have.
They draw controversy but we MUST keep talking about this.
What doesn’t get discussed enough is the big money driving all this (Dr. Jensen touched on it) and the emphasis gets conveniently shifted onto discussions about “rights”, whether they be related to personal sexual freedom, the freedoms afforded your group of peers (sex positive, to name one example) but the really juicy story just waiting to be written is the financial one.
Thanks for responding so thoughtfully, Jill.
Oh, do tell about the “big money” behind the sex-positive movement. Because clearly, there are no personal sexual freedom or freedom of expression issues at stake here, right? When Jensen’s close collaborator Gail Dines is part of a congressional briefing alongside Morality in Media, calling for more obscenity prosecutions, nobody but “big porn” and their paid shills could possibly object, I guess.
It amazes me that any halfway educated person could buy into the shit that you’re peddling here.
The money isn’t actually that big, lili Bee. Among the people I talk to are a highly successful pornographer– he’s one of the Big Names. His wife is one of the most enduring sex actresses in the business.
And he worries about his future, and his wife and employees futures.
That’s because porn is a free market now where people are still getting the product for free. It’s not because there is a lack of interest in porn.
Jill, I speak with porn-using men daily. And what many of them say is that porn is nothing compared to the real thing, and the real thing–imperfect as she might be– is much better than the beautiful but not actually touchable bodies on the screen.
I have heard men rhapsodize about the woman they’ve gotten together with, and then seen the photos of a woman who is lumpy, and short– normal to you and I in every way. You’d think they were talking about some porn superstar!
Thanks for a most thoughtful article. I especially liked Bee and Jensen’s pungent comments about humanism. Also, Jensen’s comments about the difference between tends and patterns and predicting what every single person will do are spot-on.
I hope Tom Matlock is reading this article. Sadly, I have seen him elevate masculinity above femininity in several of his articles
Finally, what the heck does a non “pornofied” relationship look like? I mean, aren’t there two (or more) people having sex? Tab A into slot B repeat as required? That’s pretty much the essense of porn. Sure you twiddle this, stroke that and so on, but basically, that’s all there is to it. Heck, some days even I wonder why I watch the stuff it’s so danged repetitive. I’ve done pretty much the same in my sex life and I haven’t found my SO’s complaining that it was “pornofied.”
I can sort of get it when you object to a facial (that’s a pretty porno kind of thing), but otherwise, there’s really nothing new under the sun (see ancient texts on sex) not even in porn (except maybe for the modern day toys or settings). Otherwise, it’s all been done before by humans somewhere.
Some days I wish I could mind meld (Vulcan style) with some of you folks on here so I actually knew what the heck you were talking about. So many ideas that are expressed here I don’t even begin to understand what is meant. It amazes me that my world is so very limited…
Hi Wet One, well, to me, “pornified” sex means that someone has watched so much porn that the real sexual experience is just an extension of a porn fantasy, rather than an experience of 2 people connecting on an intimate mental, emotional and physical level. And, yes, I know sometimes a “quickie” or a one-night stand can be physically gratifying and a lot of fun, but even then, it’s so much more than just inserting Tab A into Tab B. Sadly, but you wouldn’t know that from porn. I do think there is mystery and enchantment in sexuality, but porn turns sex into something about as profound as cleaning a toilet. Sex has become banal (to use a word that sounds a little porn-y, ha ha). I think we’ve lost that sense of sex as being an exploration of a mystery — of connecting deeply with another person who, being separate from ourselves, is ultimately unknowable, thus mysterious. The enchantment is the magic of connecting with that person despite their separateness from us. That doesn’t film as well as a facial I guess.
Shouldn’t that be Tab A into Slot B?
um, yes, Slot B. Thank you!
You seem to have very conservative sexual values, it’s funny to me that people who say things like you often call yourselves liberals. You just want to obtain a monopoly over the sexual interest of men instead of having to compete with other women. However your perception that you can’t compete with women in porn is probably a mental distortion caused by insecurity and sexual repression. Adults have the right to record themselves having sex and distribute it to others. Deal with it.
http://www.abolishchildtrafficking.org/
According to the U.S. Department of Justice, nearly 85% of victims in confirmed sex trafficking cases are U.S. citizens – mostly homeless kids. While often perceived as an international issue, American children are being trafficked throughout our country every day.
How many such cases are there as compared to the number of cases of prostitution offenses? Could you provide me with a ratio or a link?
Thanks.
The idea that women pornographers are really victims of oppression seems very patronising to me.
A male pornographer is an evil misogynist exploiting women, but a woman who does exactly the same job must have been pushed into it by her oppressor, and therefore isn’t truly responsible. Whatever she says about why she makes porn, ultimately men (in the form of all powerful Patriarchy) must somehow be to blame for her choices.
Generally it’s only children and the mentally handicapped who aren’t considered fully responsible for their actions. Some radical feminists seem to want to include mentally competent adult women alongside them, at least when those women choose to do something they think women shouldn’t.
Sex addiction is a debilitating curse. Anything to help reduce its impact is only going to help men and women in their relationships – no matter which one of the partnership is the sex addict. Both men and women can become addicted to abnormal sexual behaviors.
I agree Cam. Having a wild, fun and exciting lifestyle is one thing but when the lifestyle starts to run you, with less enjoyment each day, driven by an obsession more than joyful desire, dire repercussions from erratic behaviors, then life needs a bit of introspection.
One could say that about any and every life circumstance… jobs, homes, family, all the things we do.
I found this article to be impeccably written, and found much value in the critical lense that gender, feminism, patriarchy and pornography was viewed. For anyone who does not believe pornography harms people, please go to these sites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNZG-S27hgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1ZAG0K4_O4
http://www.shelleylubben.com
For those people who do not believe porn use can become an addiction, please read this:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/pornography-addiction-a-neuroscience-perspective-2011.
There is a list of scientific, peer-reviewed and credible articles for your further reading.
Best of luck to you on seeking the truth for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5zhu1xsDlI&feature=player_embedded
Women aren’t children. If they participate in porn it’s an adult choice they are making. Loads of them do it for free. They make the same conscious decisions that men make. This is all so much predictable and patterned GMP anti-male rhetoric.
I don’t see anywhere , where someone claims women were children. But this is a common moniker you enjoy to use Eric. It’s such a perserve statement because you’re not really concerned about women being treated like children. Actually, you enjoy the idea because it gives you a platform to belittle women and insist that any issues they face can be taken down notches to them just being “child status”. Thus, downplaying women and issues they may face that should infact be up for discussion.
The ability to acknowledge that many women in the porn business end up abused in some way has nothing to do eclipsing their choices to be in the business they have choosen to be in, but to directly address a very reality of the industry instead of the fantasy that many people buy into at face value.
You also ignore the fact that while there are more women in the industry in more powerful positions, it’s a male run show and that many of the female “stars” are subject to the leadership of the men that drive the industry. Further, many of the women that get into the industry usually do some from a very young age compared to the seasoned and experience men in the industry, from the actors to the very porn producers. And “agents” that are there to “protect” a certain actress, are really less interested in her protection then he is the money he can make from any given girl on any given day for the short time she is in the business. Did you know that the majority of porn actresses only last 6 months to 1 year in the industry? Most of them. And that within that time span they are asked to indulge in increasing degrading and potenially harmful sexual acts?
Yes, they choose to do this. But they are also often manipulated by more seasoned and experienced players and don’t have the life experience to handle themselves. They also don’t have the education in most cases since they are usually very young and inexperienced.
Attempting to draw a link between being honest about the abuses that go on in the industry to somehow treating women like children is most ludicris. And if you were really fair, then anytime an issue men faced popped up on GMP, you would have to be right on that article page talking about how “men choose” those situations. But I never seen you say such things about issues men face that a man might have choosen within his life.
You contradict yourself when you say the thing about women in porn having suffered abuse during childhood because having been abused as a child doesn’t negate someone’s status as being an adult once they’re of age. Being an adult means being allowed to make your own mistakes, there’s no way to get around that.
What a load of crap.