‘Titanic’ left us brokenhearted, but why do we need someone to blame?
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The interwebs have been buzzing madly since Kate Winslet finally made the shocking admission that her iconic character, Rose, allowed Leonardo DiCaprio’s Jack to die needlessly in one of the most famous scenes of the mega-famous blockbuster, Titanic.
During her charming-as-always appearance on Jimmy Kimmel Live, their chit chat went as follows:
Jimmy: “People were very excited that you were sitting next to — or near — Leonardo DiCaprio…even though in a way you let him freeze to death in the water, because I …”
Kate: “No, I agree, you know, I think he could have actually fitted on that bit of door.”
Jimmy: “There was plenty of room on the raft!”
Kate: “I know, I know!”
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The question of whether or not Jack had to die has been a topic of pop culture debate since the movie’s release in 1997.
So much so that a Google search of the phrase “did Jack have to die” yields 111,000,000 results!
In 2012, The Disney Channel’s Mythbusters went so far as to recreate the conditions the fictional characters would have endured in that nightmare of a storm, and then conducted hypothermia tests, all of which “proved” that had Jack literally climbed on board with Rose, and had they both understood the science of buoyancy enough to realize that putting Rose’s life jacket under the makeshift raft would have kept them afloat, the two young lovers would have both survived the tragic sinking of the Titanic.
Except, as the movie’s director, James Cameron, stated in response:
“I think you guys are missing the point here. The script says Jack died. He has to die. So maybe we screwed up and the board should have been a little tiny bit smaller, but the dude’s goin’ down.”
In an interview that same year, Cameron shared a similar response when a reporter for The Guardian asked him, “Couldn’t Rose have shared her wooden board with Jack at the end of Titanic instead of shoving him into the ocean?”
“Wait a minute,” Cameron snapped back, “I’m going to call up William Shakespeare and ask why Romeo and Juliet had to die.”
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I personally have the utmost respect for creative freedom and artistic choice. Without question, Mr. Cameron knows at least a wee bit more about what goes into making a successful film than I do. How about you?
What I find far more interesting is the way we as a society have made this debate about whether or not Rose consciously and intentionally “allowed” Jack to die, or whether Jack was “too stupid” to climb aboard.
Fan theories abound:
- Jack only died because Rose pushed him down into the freezing water.
- Rose let Jack drown because she didn’t want to marry an uneducated artist.
- Jack chose to drown because he knew he could never marry her and he didn’t want to return to a life of poverty alone.
Kimmel himself used the phrase “let him freeze to death.” The reporter from the Guardian referenced Rose “shoving him into the ocean.”
Don’t things happen for which neither a man nor a woman is to blame? Does it always have to be us against them in order to reconcile our feelings about loss and grief?
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Are most men and women — let alone a 17-year-old girl and 20-year-old chap struggling to survive in the middle of a freezing ocean in 1912 — knowledgeable enough about physics to have figured out that if they put a life vest under a wooden door it would stay afloat? I know I would have had zero clue. Zero.
Don’t things happen for which neither a man nor a woman is to blame?
Does it always have to be us against them in order to reconcile our feelings about loss and grief?
I would love to see a collective statement along the lines of this:
“It’s totally fucked up that Jack died. We all left the theater with our stomachs in knots, wiping our snot-and-tear-laden faces with our sleeves. Sometimes sad shit happens, and no one understands why. Let’s hug the ones we love tonight and try to enjoy every moment we have.”
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It is my personal theory that had this story been real (as some believe it is), Jack would indeed have died. And it would have been neither his nor Rose’s fault.
I believe this because:
A. I can’t imagine anyone but a physicist being in that terrifying moment and intuitively knowing Rose’s life vest could save them both, and
B. Hollywood.
As Cameron said, the dude was going down.
Photo credit: Flickr/a65ysg/
Thanks again, Jules, When I see accusation or besmirching of men, I tend not to get into quibbling, and won’t here. Arguing only further detracts and deflects away from the particular men’s issue at hand (which is, of course, the goal). What I’ve learned to do is to speak my peace and move on. My comments are often not even directed at an individual, but to help other men see how to unravel, to see how some tactics work to shut us down (and to show them how to stand up, with dignity)…and then let any detractor that chooses, to… Read more »
Where were men besmirched here? I’m sorry DJ but clearly you were looking to shut me down. Between you and Jules talking around me and over me and ignoring me. My responses have not been outlandish or degrading. It was an attempt to get you to understand that joking about throwing a woman overboard really isn’t that funny to read when you’re a woman. Just like no man here would have found it funny had I made the same joke at men’s expense. And I think you know that but you’ll most likely never say here for fear that admitting… Read more »
@ Erin Just a guess, but I think it reflects the classic dissatisfaction in the MRM with the concept of ladies first. It isn’t just access to life boats. It’s also food aid, medicine, shelter, etc. provided by NGOs. The excuse usually given is that if we didn’t provide these services exclusively to women, men through their superior strength would push themselves to the front of the line. The problem here is that in order to feed women they have chosen to let men starve rather than increase the level of aid or spread the misery. It doesn’t eliminate the… Read more »
John – I guess you’re responding to things I said earlier? Otherwise I can’t see how your response to my last comment makes sense or addresses what I said. Of course it matters that Titantic was a calamity of errors. There were so many things that went wrong that contributed to how many people died. The boat had no procedures at all in the event of it sinking. Thing after thing went wrong. By the way, women in third class died at roughly the same rate men did. It wasn’t that men put *all* women and children first. I already… Read more »
“like the women watching their men die on the boat wasn’t a life altering event for them.” This sentiment has never really left. The sentiment that no matter how much men suffer, women are the real victims. To paraphrase Hillary Clinton we are the true victims of war because their sons, husbands, fathers, and brothers are killed. Same sentiment men are killed, but women are the true victims, but wow, you think we’re wrong? You don’t really address the issue with the NGOs or nearly any other instance where men are prevented from using superior strength. These same instances where… Read more »
John – I simply have empathy for all the men, women and children who were on the Titantic and the extremely difficult place they found themselves at where they *all* had to make bad choices in a bad situation. I never said that women were the true victims. You made that ridiculous accusation. I do think it’s fair to acknowledge that having to watch the people you love die isn’t exactly an easy choice onto itself. Every single human life on that ship was a victim. Victims who died. Victims who lived. Victims who had to watch those they love… Read more »
Oh and as for this comment: “I will though speak against the societal pressure that says it’s their duty to and the societal rules which would value a man’s life as less than a woman’s.” This is rather an ironic statement coming from a man who is 40+ and regularly talks about how he’s going to marry a woman half his age and often poses the question, “Why shouldn’t men go for younger women”. It seems to me that you value women’s lives as less then your own. Yet that’s okay. It’s okay that you’ve put this evaluation on women’s… Read more »
Yes, Jules. I was remiss. Tough post to write. Would not want some woman reading it and thinking it was some sort of men only board though. Was trying to get the point across (to everyone) that the reason this is the conversation that no one else is having is because so very often the conversation gets shouted down, twisted off topic, turns ugly and stuffs the guys back into the box of silence and frustration. They are trying very hard to give guys (and gals) that safe place to finally talk about men’s issues without such. I like the… Read more »
Although I think what most people want is respect, there is also the never enough concept. We see that with the accumulation of wealth. There are billionaires trying to become trillionaires, etc. Same with the concept of equality Now that I’m equal, I want to be equaler. We see this with the fight against men’s rights. We see this with the push for men to be chivalrous to women or sure some of the more crafty with suggest that men should help men in need, but that isn’t their point and few if any have suggested women do the same.… Read more »
@DJ Roukan, You’re doing a superb job my friend. I have been here for around 3 years now. Maybe longer….I will give GMP a grade of “B’. They approach things from a feminist point of view women it comes to dealing with men issues. Scattered about are a few male positive pieces. What is interesting is when ever a piece appears praising and applauding men, very few women will comment. If they do comment, it usually is quite critical of the author, who is most often another woman. Last year a woman of French origin had a piece asking the… Read more »
DJ – In all fairness, I never shouted down the conversation, twisted it off topic, or turned it ugly. I do not think anything I said created an ‘unsafe’ place for other people to comment. You made a joke at women’s expense. I don’t see how that creates a safe place for women. And in reality, your joke as a touch of truth to it. The standard american male could easily throw a standard woman woman over side of something. So I told you not to worry because today’s man can rest assured in their own personal survival. You are… Read more »
@ DJ,
Nice post!
“I do not need someone bird-dogging me around a men’s board leaping to correct me because if forgot to cross a T, or uttered support for a men’s issues.”
Just so you know, GMP does not consider itself a “men’s board.”
I’ll be honest Jules, your support for what DJ said to me took me by surprise. Do you honestly believe I’m ‘bird-dogging” DJ?
Secondly, how would you have felt had a woman come here and made a joke at men’s expense about throwing them over board?
Erin, It is a point of female entitlement, (that is the punch line of the joke). When we devalue the life of one group for the advantage of another, it entitles one, oppresses the other…and it is a danger to all when attempted as it only slows down the process. We have to admit that, and do so openly, just as we have done for women in the past if we are ever to move forward, to not stagnate…and that is what happens when we get into these type of “he said, she said” discussion rather then suck it up… Read more »
DJ – No one is asking you to ‘prove your metal”. Some of us may be more familiar with each other, but everyone here is allowed an equal voice whether they’ve been here a while or not. We are all equals. You certainly don’t have to prove yourself to anyone here. This is a board that represents conversation, sharing ideas and debating them. And because that’s what this space represents, if I don’t see something I agree with, I’ll speak up on it. If I see something I agree with, I’ll say so too. Just like you would. So no,… Read more »
I once submitted an article titled something like Sometimes I Just Need Someone to Hate. It wasn’t published, but I talked about the untimely death of a friend’s little brother. When you’re in pain, you want to be able to lash out at someone to make you feel better. You want to get even. When there are tragedies without a villain there is no where to release your pain through anger and guys don’t do crying well.
Yikes! People are over-thinking this. I think you got to believe the actual person that wrote the movie. The door probably should have been smaller so that it truly would have followed the script of it ‘having’ to be that way. Now, I hated when Jack died. You want them to go on and have a happy life together. But there is something to be said for Rose going on alone. And here is why. If Rose and Jack and gone off into the sunset together, all her adventures would have been because of Jack. The reason her life plan… Read more »
Well, Arianna, I know that I would have survived, as I would have thrown her in the water and climbed aboard myself. You do not need physics for that, just a bit of weight training. Kidding, but the fact that so many do not understand such basic concepts as buoyancy does trouble me. Does so more then so many men do not. I belong to a particular men’s site that is just a community of men associating together with no dark political objectives or intent. There are sections on “the manly arts”. There is one titled,”100 manly skills that every… Read more »
“…. I know that I would have survived, as I would have thrown her in the water and climbed aboard myself. You do not need physics for that, just a bit of weight training. Kidding.”
In the movie, Rose didn’t throw Jack off the wood and climb on it herself. But yes, as a man, you could easily do that to most women. So don’t worry, if for whatever reason another Titantic happened, Im sure this time around more men would survive because they have the pure physicality to do it.
It was a joke, Erin. No reason why this can’t be fun.
…and they still load in the order of women and children first as of my most recent cruise.
Okay DJ. But I do wonder how your joke would be taken if I made the same one about men. I probably would be verbally massacred if I made a joke about shoving a man over board for my own survival on any website that touched on sensitive issues between men and women.
Plus, there are actual men out there who use the Titanic as an example of what they perceive to be women’s privilege. At least they can take comfort in knowing that next time around, they can push women and children overboard to survive.
@ Erin
But why shouldn’t men consider their lives as important and valuable as a woman’s?
Whaaat????? When did I say men’s lives weren’t as important or valuables as womens’???