Male sexual desire, Hugo Schwyzer writes, is shaped by a desire for the approval of other men.
One of the enduring myths about female beauty is that it’s not something about which men really care all that much. Van Morrison sang about girls who went out at night “dressed up for each other,” and few men question the wisdom of that famous line. Ask most men—perhaps particularly straight men—about women and beauty and you’ll get the same sort of answer:
I don’t care that much about fashion. I think a woman can look great in jeans and a t-shirt without any make-up. I don’t understand why women take so long to get ready/spend so much time stressing about clothes/worry so incessantly about their looks. Don’t they know that most dudes don’t really care about that stuff?
I’ve heard versions of that spiel from a great many guys. Most women have heard something similar from husbands, boyfriends, or would-be suitors. It’s one of our basic cultural assumptions about beauty, fashion, and the modern female: this obsession with looks is something women do to themselves. The judgment and the criticism are largely woman-to-woman. Men may be a bit clueless, the trope suggests, but they’re much more accepting of women than women are of each other.
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At best, that’s an incomplete understanding of the issue.
Yes, it’s true that fashion is about a good deal more than simply making women attractive to men. Not every aesthetic decision is linked to a sexual agenda, a point made cleverly and creatively at popular sites like The Man Repeller. Many women’s passion for fashion has little at all to do with wanting to attract or keep a man. To pick an obvious stereotypical parallel: high school boys don’t go out for sports solely to impress girls (though that’s often one secondary factor among many in their decision-making process). Many men love sports for their own sake, irrespective of their appeal (or lack thereof) to women. The exact same thing is true of beauty. Men make a colossal error in assuming that those women who are fascinated with fashion (not all are, of course) are looking for ways to make themselves more sexually alluring.
But it’s also true that men care much more about women’s looks than they let on. And women know it.
Straight men aren’t just sexually attracted to women. They’re also, all too frequently, attracted to what beautiful women can do for their status in the eyes of other guys. Even those who are leery of claims that a “Guy Code” exists outside of feminist theory (or beer commercials) acknowledge that having hot girlfriends is the sine qua non of being an alpha male.
The desire for the approval of other men shapes straight men’s sexual desires. Think of the very reasonable claims of many men that they’re not attracted to size zero, skin-and-bones supermodels. Lots of guys claim, with apparent sincerity, that they love women with “curves.” So why are men so interested in dating skinny models? (A question asked and answered brilliantly in Ted Demme’s marvelous Beautiful Girls.) The answer, of course, is that a great many men care as much about what other guys think of their girlfriends and wives as they do about their own desires. The young guy who claims to love curves may be sincere, but he may also have to endure the taunts of his peers, who’ll call him a “chubby chaser” – or simply remark dismissively, “Dude, your chick’s fat.”
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Put simply, it’s not about the sex, it’s about the status.
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In Guy World, models imbue their beaux with a special and rare cachet in the eyes of other men. And that cachet is more than worth dating a woman with a body type that is less of a turn-on than a great many people imagine. This isn’t true of all men. But it drives a great many guys throughout their lives: from high school boys who sense the homosocial boost of dating a cheerleader to middle-aged men who suddenly start dating “hotties” half their age. Put simply, it’s not about the sex, it’s about the status.
Whether or not they can name this phenomenon for what it is, a lot of women know that men are being too cute by half when they come out with that “I prefer women in jeans and a t-shirt” line. As my friend Annemarie puts it: “I know my boyfriend thinks I’m hot whatever I wear. But I also know that when we go out he wants me to look hot for his friends too. Sexy, but not slutty. He just knows how bad that sounds if he asks for it, so he just hints at it. It’s chickenshit, but it’s par for the course with most guys.”
That line between what’s considered “sexy” or “classy” and what’s considered “slutty” or “trying too hard” is a very difficult one for young women to negotiate. Because it’s an inherently subjective distinction, women have to consider their own comfort level, their own aesthetic sense, the expectations of the setting into which they’ll be going, and the reactions of virtually everyone whom they’ll encounter when they’re out. Telling them “it doesn’t matter, you look great whatever you wear” sounds nice–but most women know that it isn’t that simple. (I remember when my first serious college girlfriend first met my parents. She tried on what had to have been seven different outfits. When I snapped with exasperation to “Just pick something already,” she snapped back “Easy for you to say. You know damn well this matters, and not just to you.”)
Just as so many young women know they’re expected to negotiate effortlessly the sexy/slutty distinction, many aging women know well that they live in a culture in which their looks are given a cruel, arbitrary sell-by date. Not every man over 40 stares at hot girls half his age; not every middle-aged father prefers to masturbate to images of “barely legal teens” rather than “MILFS” when he’s alone with his laptop. But enough aging men do sexualize very young women—and disparage their female peers—to send a loud and clear message to women on the high side of 35.
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Men can’t have it both ways—insisting that beauty and make-up and clothes are irrelevant and bewildering wastes of time, and then responding with such unmistakable desire to those whose skin is youthful, and whose ability to negotiate the sexy/slutty dichotomy seems the most natural and effortless. Well-meaning compliments have to be backed up by our actions. And in our contemporary culture, women take their cues about what really matters as much from our actions as they do from Vogue and Project Runway. Admitting that would be a good place for guys to start.
—Photo kedai-lelaki/Flickr
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More on Women’s Obsession with Beauty
Chasing Beauty: An Addict’s Memoir
Are Women Addicted to Beauty?
Her Looks, Your Status: Why His Claims Not to Care About Beauty Ring Hollow
The Ugly Duckling as a Gender-Neutral Beauty Ideal
Don’t Hate Me Because I’m Beautiful
Sorry boys, status is relative to much more than just the looks of your partner. If your status is based on the opinions of other shallow mens’ lust of your own girlfriend, you lack self esteem in such that it’ll be impossible to ever be comfortable with who you are. To that, you have my sympathy. I love who I am because I know what I’m worth and love to share time with others of the same mindset. I am unique however. Usually, men who try to dismiss my perceived status come across as jealous and inept. It’s really hard… Read more »
Why are some men such pukes?! Seriously?! Any guy who will only date a woman who will make his shallow, misogynist male friends jealous is a worthless pig who is NOT worth my time or effort! Those pigs are NOT men but rather shallow little boys trapped inside of a man’s body. No! Real women will not settle for a scumbag like that but hold out for a real man. One who sees the beauty inside instead of obsessing about what’s on the outside. Put another way, The Beauty within a woman could be the equivalent of a Mona Lisa.… Read more »
I have an uncle who married a woman who is by no means a beauty queen. She’s short, fat and dumpy and was always that way. I saw a picture of my uncle when he was younger and he was very handsome. Thing is, he didn’t care about her looks. Honestly, there are those who will always break whatever mold there is.
I suppose I care about how my partner looks to other men, but it’s extremely low on my list of priorities. If I’m shallow, it’s in a different area. I care much more about whether I’m having great sex with a woman, much more than how she looks. I don’t understand being with a beautiful woman as the primary goal. I suppose some men think like that, but I just don’t get that. What’s the point of being with a woman who matches some particular visual image if your sex life is lousy? Then again, I don’t have buddies that… Read more »
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I love this website! It is so great to read articles by men about these issues. It made me realise how I have so often (and without realising) not taken similar articles written by women so seriously because I felt like ‘what is the point’ it is just a discussion amongst women and yes we all agree and yes we all do go through this but men just don’t understand or give a sh*t enough to read about it as well. But here are men actually writing these articles and it makes me feel like I am not just going… Read more »
“I’m going to keep this short because you’re barely even reading what I wrote. Your responses don’t even address what I was saying, so I just have this to add:” I have read what you have written. I have responded. “When writers have articles about how some men can’t find girlfriends, they aren’t talking about all men. It’s just some. There is no feminist article that says that ALL single men are single because they’re misogynists deep down and turn women off.” This might be the case, but it is very well hidden. This is like saying that all you… Read more »
“I’m not super familiar with “Nice Guy(tm)”, but I am pretty familiar with reality and I can assure you that women do not have Jerk ESP. ” Great, tell that to heartless bitches, Hugo and Amanda Marcotte, when the rant about the Nice Guy ™. “There is no 6th sense for crappy people. Everyone, women and men both, just try to get a feel for people and base their opinions on that. It’s not just with sex and relationships, either – it works the same way with friendships and acquaintances. Everyone, at some point, has though “oh, this person is… Read more »
I’m going to keep this short because you’re barely even reading what I wrote. Your responses don’t even address what I was saying, so I just have this to add: When writers have articles about how some men can’t find girlfriends, they aren’t talking about all men. It’s just some. There is no feminist article that says that ALL single men are single because they’re misogynists deep down and turn women off. Every girl can tell you that she’s come into contact with at least one Nice Guy, who was giving off very blatantly hostile vibes. But every girl can… Read more »
I meant to say, “I think Hugo needs to write posts like “I’m not rich and I don’t run a Fortune 500 company so how can a guy like me be privileged?” . . .
Well Hugo, you’re articles always make me feel hopeful that there are men out there that get it and work to improve things not just for women’s sake, but for the sake of how men and women relate to each other. But then I read the responses and I admit to feeling sad/defeated about how most of the men responded view women. The sad thing of it all is that these things aren’t even positives for young women either. Because young women grow older too. So if a man is interested in them for their youth, he really isn’t respecting… Read more »
Erin, Hugo’s posts are filled with baseless assertions that seem to confirm your own biases, leading you to mistake his unfounded claims with “hitting the nail on the head.” As an example, Hugo asserts that men who claim to care about a woman in their lives are actually lying and primarily care about how that woman garners them status with other men. To get there, Hugo is assuming that men making this specific claim are lying. This is incredibly unfair as it marginalizes the actual experiences of men by assuming without proof that their experiences are misrepresented (that they are… Read more »
Mike- I don’t see anywhere in Hugo’s post where he is saying men are lying if they care about a beautiful woman in their life. What he is saying is that some men measure their masculinity through the looks of their partners. I’ve never heard a man brag about his wife turning 40. I have heard men brag about their younger wives and other men cheer him on. Does this mean that these men don’t love their wives? No. But it does mean that a woman’s look are commodities on some level. And this “proudness” a man feels in his… Read more »
Excellent post Mike.
Hi Erin, don’t let the haters get you down. No point trying to win them over. You are not the jerk whisperer! 🙂
The guys who post those comments are bitter and angry for whatever reason in their personal lives. instead of dealing with it, they spew bile on the internet. Their loss.
I agree with you, Jill and Erin. Hugo’s posts are good, but it’s depressing to see so much defensiveness and hatred of feminists among the male responders.
I think Hugo think he needs to write posts like “I’m not rich and I don’t run a Fortune 500 company, so how can a guy like me be privileged?” and “I don’t believe it. Show me how I learned the Guy Code.”
The fish are usually the last ones to notice the water, as they say in sociological circles. The Good Men Project needs to show men how to notice the water.
What is funny but sad is that SOME of the females commenting against those men are also generalizing, using personal experience as what ALL men or ALL women do, having the same bitterness and ignorance that some of the males are doing. Quite frankly all I’m seeing are both genders both giving their opinions and then denying others, trying to ignore the female’s doing wrong aspect whilst criticizing heavily the males doing wrong aspect. “Hugo’s posts are filled with baseless assertions that seem to confirm your own biases, leading you to mistake his unfounded claims with “hitting the nail on… Read more »
“What people absolutely fail to realize is that attraction VARIES PERSON TO PERSON.” I read and hear this all the time: we are all *unique* individuals that are so utterly independent of one another that to generalize in any way is a supreme injustice! ALSO (in a more extreme variant): Look, look! My life or my friend’s life or some other anecdote contradicts the generalization, so the generalization is worthless because it doesn’t account for every single person! Don’t tread on me, I’m my own person! Nobody has formulated every thought, tendency and practice (conscious and unconscious) all by their… Read more »
When a site or an article focuses on social movements or trends, there HAS to be some level of generalization. Whether or not it’s accurate or not is, of course, up for debate. But I don’t think that pointing out a social trend, particularly one as obvious as an obsession with youth, is really going out on a limb too much. Of course some men prefer older women. Of course everyone is an individual. But, the point here is social commentary, not commentary on you. This website exists for the purpose of examining social trends, or perceived social trends, and… Read more »
Straight men are afraid of change. Even more when it comes to acknowledging their own faults and part of the blame for treating women as less than human and not holding themselves to the same standards they hold women to.
Women are not the ones saying they only like rich men. In fact, most women don’t and most women actually despise women like that. Most articles for women trying to find a mate is about finding a good guy who loves you. Most women care about a man’s personality (humor and confidence are the most mentioned, usually) and passion the most. Men actually ARE the ones saying men in general (or ALL MEN, look above!) dislike older women and go for beauty and youth mostly or only. In fact, that is a truth most men can’t deny and do not… Read more »
It’s hard not too sometimes Jill but thanks for the encouragment. I laughed at the “jerk whisperer” comment.
Jill said:
The guys who post those comments are bitter and angry for whatever reason in their personal lives.
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I’ve been seeing way more bitter comments from women stating “all guys do ________”
Berating men to behave in a manner you think they should won’t work.
Berating all critics of either gender as being f*cked up isn’t part of the solution.
Still you berate feminists and call them full of crap. Hello, hypocrite. Thanks for not being part of the solution.
“Well Hugo, you’re articles always make me feel hopeful that there are men out there that get it and work to improve things not just for women’s sake, but for the sake of how men and women relate to each other.” Have you looked into Hugo’s own lifestyle choices? He is married to a former model, many years his younger. “But then I read the responses and I admit to feeling sad/defeated about how most of the men responded view women. The sad thing of it all is that these things aren’t even positives for young women either. Because young… Read more »
There is just so much wrong with this post. If you’ve had the same type of struggles that these women have had, why are your replies so unsympathetic? Maybe you have more in common than you think. While it may be tempting to view women as the “enemy” and take pleasure when they suffer as you do, you should keep in mind that the women on this board are probably not the same women that have rejected you in your life. They’re completely different people with completely different experiences. They might even have similar experiences to you. I know a… Read more »
“If you’ve had the same type of struggles that these women have had, why are your replies so unsympathetic?” You get what you put in, and considering how I have just gotten the attitude that my troubles are of my own devising and that I should change to counter them, it is quite easy to extrapolate the origin of my hostility. “Maybe you have more in common than you think. While it may be tempting to view women as the “enemy” and take pleasure when they suffer as you do, you should keep in mind that the women on this… Read more »
There’s no doubt that some men can hide their bad sides very well. Women do not have an ability to automatically know who is “good’ and who is ‘bad”. They use their best judgment and sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. Women can, however, usually tell when someone is giving off very blatantly hostile vibes, like you are. “Sorry, they are very much the same.” This is your problem right here. As long as you run around thinking that all women, even ones that you’ve never even met, have done you some grievous personal harm, you’ll never find anyone that… Read more »
“There’s no doubt that some men can hide their bad sides very well. Women do not have an ability to automatically know who is “good’ and who is ‘bad”. They use their best judgment and sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. Women can, however, usually tell when someone is giving off very blatantly hostile vibes, like you are.” That is not what is said about the Nice Guy(tm), there it is blatantly stated that women can detect manipulative assholes and therefore avoid them. This detection capability might explain why women shun me, but it doesn’t explain why then men who… Read more »
“That is not what is said about the Nice Guy(tm), there it is blatantly stated that women can detect manipulative assholes and therefore avoid them.” I’m not super familiar with “Nice Guy(tm)”, but I am pretty familiar with reality and I can assure you that women do not have Jerk ESP. There is no 6th sense for crappy people. Everyone, women and men both, just try to get a feel for people and base their opinions on that. It’s not just with sex and relationships, either – it works the same way with friendships and acquaintances. Everyone, at some point,… Read more »
“Not all women are the same”
We always hear that when people call out women’s bad behavior, as if it were required that every last woman do something before we call it out as a problem. There is even an acronym for that “NAWALT”.
It is enough that many women are “like that” for us to call out a pattern. This whole issue is about the general case.
8outof10 is suggesting a pattern or calling out a tendency – he’s saying that literally all women are the same. That’s just impossible.
But, oh, there’s an internet acronym for it? An acronym created by Nice Guys? Well, then I guess that really shows me.
Maybe the reason that women keep saying NAWALT is because you’re blatantly and unfairly stereotyping every one you meet? Just a thought.
“Sorry, they are very much the same.” They, who? All women? Like all men are rapists in potential? Ok then. “With the main difference that there is no vocal masculinist movement telling the 25+ female virgins that they get what they deserve and if they just stopped being manipulative passive aggressive bastards everything would solve itself.” We don’t need it, regular men already do that to us on a regular basis. But they tell us that we are just too fat, ugly, hairy, not submissive enough or bitchy. Or just tell us that women past 25 are just worthless already,… Read more »
“So what? Considering how feminists keep screaming their heads off about how men that don’t succeed just have to be content with living on their own, the same should apply to women.” ????? What feminists are telling men to live on their own if they do not “succeed” (in what sense)? And if you believe that is a bad thing (I get from the comment you believe it is), why do you want women to suffer ignorance and hatred from men? “The theory of the Nice Guy ™ and it’s implication tells me, a 28 year old virgin that women… Read more »
First there is a difference between fashion and beauty but… GTFOH – I can’t take some of these comments seriously. Men are not influenced by competition? Why do blonde’s have more fun? Why are their no beauty pageants with men that are the equivalent to Miss Universe or Miss World? Why do women get breast implants. Why do all of the women in commercial porn from Playboy to XXX look the same? Why are fat women always ridiculed as non sexual? There has been no definitive answer as to what constitutes universal beauty, but over time there has been evidence… Read more »
If your woman has the body of a Lane Bryant model and hairy armpits because that’s what you like, doesn’t that make you an alpha too?
It was easier in Marilyn Monroe and Liz Taylor’s day. Now, a woman has to be an athlete but also have big boobs.
A discerning man knows that there is something fundamentally twisted about skinny-woman look.
Going out with a drop-dead sexy female inevitably means you are having two social interactions: one with the woman, and one with the men who are checking her out. Dealing with the latter is tiring, imo.
And, honestly, nothing lasts forever, especially not youth and beauty. I heard an eastern European proverb once: young women are like fresh white bread, they get old quickly. Unless you plan on dumping your wife/girlfriend every few years (which some men do, but not feasible for most guys) eventually you will have an older woman on your arm. Hopefully a nice looking older woman, but, still, OLDER. You’d better be able to find her beautiful, or you will be pretty damn miserable.
A man’s happiness (much like woman’s) is not wholly dependent on the person they’re with. A few men (as with a few women) fit into that mold, but not most people.
What I meant was, if a man values his partner’s youth & beauty over other factors, assuming he wants to have a long term relationship with her, the youth & beauty he values so much is not going to last. I keep reading comments from certain people on this site (not you, Wet One) who express these really deeply negative feelings toward women who are (gasp!) older or less attractive. I always wonder what men like that will do if and when they decide they want to be in a long term relationship with a woman. If it’s true (as… Read more »
Yeah, a lot of men do exactly those things you’re talking about, Jill. And it IS very sad. It’s true that happiness isn’t wholly dependent on the person they’re with, but on the other hand most people really do want the level of intimacy that can only come from a long term relationship and a truly shared life. And many people, when they don’t get that, think the answer is somehow to be found in having a succession of superficial relationships.
Very sad indeed.
Jill, I think you’re either missing the point, or maybe those commenters you mention are over-stating the youth angle. The way I see it is this: Men (at least men who feel confident enough–which by definition is the men women want) will screen which women to pursue based on looks. Men are still looking for love, but the more charming, confident, successful, at ease w/himself, artistic, etc.. a man is the more actively will he screen (by beauty) females in which he invests time. The end goal is still love, but the active search takes place across a smaller section… Read more »
Jill, You could have articles like hugo’s take up all the pages in every newspaper for ten years (and constantly on every tv channel of every minute) and it won’t do any good. The need is to address the underlying issues of why the dating realm is a shark tank, not just to endlessly berate men for not behaving in a way that women don’t like. 2nd wave feminism started for exactly the same reason (women getting messages on how to behave). It won’t work. Reestablishing the importance of the social contract between men and women will do way more… Read more »
“This is in no way different and equally shameful/unethical as woman screening men for wealth (which I believe is waaaayy more common, and much less shamed). Cradle-robbing men get way more shamed than gold-digging women.” Women screening men for wealth is more common than men screening women for beauty? LMAOOOOOOOOOHOHOHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH! Most women could care less about a man’s income. Most men actually see the woman’s beauty as the most important attribute. MOST MEN. And even the ones who don’t will admit they would want the hottest woman if possible. Women also care about looks, but not as much, have no… Read more »
Thinking on this further and the whole “trophy wife” comment above, I think in a certain economic millieu where there is a whole lot of competition and status demonstrations (I’m thinking law offices for one and corporate boardrooms for another), men may actually want a beautiful woman for status more than anything else (maybe amongst pro sports players too as they’re pretty competitive). Amongst your average guys though who’s as powerless and as downtrodden as the next schlub, not so much. They don’t compete amongst each other and status seek to such an extent that having a “trophy wife” one… Read more »
“However, I do enjoy the fact that they’re envious! HA!” To clarify, the foregoing means I’d still be with my dear sweet love even if other men didn’t turn their heads. I think my comments will confuse some people or be intentionally confused, so I’m clarifying in advance.
THe Wet One, i’ve read your posts in this article and all they proved to me is that Hugo is right. You’ve bragged several times now about your wife or other women in situations where men were envious of you. You find them attractive but you also do use them as status when you brag about them. It doesn’t matter that you keep saying that you don’t do it for status. Your actions of talking about it alone show that you do. It’s not even that you mentioned it once. You’ve mentioned these things several times now. Which doubly solidifies… Read more »
Can you explain to me how enjoying the fact that other men check out my significant other is my use of her as a status symbol?
Assuming you can do that, could you then explain to me how I could have my significant other, note the fact that other men check her out and NOT use her as a status symbol?
Thanks!
Also, I knew this post was coming, but anyways… It’s a gas in here! HA!
I just did explain it. You use it as a tool to “brag”. Not just once, but several times. And several times through out the postings on this site, you’ve often made comments about attractive young women that were into you. You totally think it ups your status. Or you wouldn’t talk about it so much. You wouldn’t post the kind of things you do about the subject. You’re dialogue about the subject says more then you seem to realize. You want to share the fact that other men look at your partner. You’re proud of it. But what do… Read more »
Bingo.
That is actually scary the number of men who are oblivious to their own impulses, inner thoughts and motivations. How many times it gets a woman to show them the truth about what they are doing.
Maybe because they see women as so much less than human, as so inferior and thoughtless… that what they think about us, do to us and use us for is passed for nothing important in their own heads. While we acknowledge, see and feel all of this and have to actually remind them or even teach them about their actions. Amazing. And sad.
Actually, I think that Hugo always emphasizes the impact of patriarchy on men’s choices whereas Tom generally denies its impact.
Neither Tom nor Hugo talk about the relationship between individuals and the culture that they live in. Allan Johnson rightly says that we are all impacted by patriarchy, capitalism and white privilege, but we can choose how we respond to those forces. We can actively promote them, we can just go with the flow, or we can challenge them and work for something better.
I want to see The Good Men Project challenge patriarchy and work for something better.
Good post Marie, and that’s exactly right. I think men and women *both* suffer from the effects of patriarchy and capitalism, it’s just that currently, women are more aware of it. So I don’t “blame” men as individuals for where we have ended up in our still mostly pathetic attempts to have genuine relationships. There are too many men in my life whom I love dearly and I know they mean well and are basically respectful toward women. But I still have to concede that too few of them are willing to challenge some of the basic assumptions about relationships… Read more »
Ah, that mythical word Patriarch, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
If it only existed, then feminists wouldn’t be totally full of crap.
Oh, the MRA idiot who believes women as property never existed and men as the only seen as human, able to have rights or more rights, only one able to start divorce, and the only one able to own money and work never existed and does not still exist in many places of the world.
It’s in the dictionary, search about it’s meaning. By the way, this world have been around for much, but much longer than feminism, they did not invent the concept. You are full of ignorance.
I know several “average dudes” and most of them emphasize women’s looks. Some of them even call their wives and girlfriends “arm candy” and brag that they got the best looking woman. When we call these “average dudes” on their objectification of women, they’ll say, “I’m a guy and I can’t help it.” And when we tell them that women want good looking men, they say that women’s standards are too high. 🙁 Not all “average dudes” are like that, but I’ve seen so many that demand “arm candy.” Some of my male friends will tell me about guys who… Read more »
Yeah, I have run into the same thing a lot, Marie. 🙁
Yeah… and the hotness of a woman is still her most importat attribute for most men. And men usually agree with each other aboutt women’s hotness in general. They may disagree only about who is the hotter. And what makes a woman hot is actually really difficult to obtain, have long hair or stylish enough, pluck your eyebrows, wax your mustache, shave your whole body, be skinnier than what is healthy… make-up and cute clothes are a plus, but also seen as necessary to attract most men as well. And men will hold women to these standards. While not putting… Read more »
Keythah- You nailed. They claim they want a natural beauty, but what is natural about shaved armpits?
It’s all relative isn’t it? 170+ lb woman was the ideal for many hundreds of years. Now, OMG, she’s a fatty.
And plus, how do you know if you’ve won if there isn’t a hierarchy?
That is a fantasy.
For women the same thin curvy body has been desirable throughout all of history.It is reflected in art of ancient Egypt, to Greek and Roman art (e.g. Venus de Milo), to early renaissance (e.g. Botecelli’s birth of venus), through to the present day. Rubens is often used to justify some era where fat women were desirable. Rubens is an outlier, And his women are not as fat as most imagine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rubens_Painting_Adam_Eve.jpg
Not to worry, the ideal body for men has been the same through history also – lean and muscular – represented perfectly by Michaelangelo’s David.
Actually, the ideal female body in the paintings you speak of is a far cry from what the ideal female body is considered today. The women back then, didn’t only have more curves, but they were more realistic. Take a look at the very painting you mentioned, Botecelli’s Birth of Venus and Venus De Milo, you’ll see her body is a far cry from what we see today in porn and men’s magazines. So yes, the ideas about beauty has changed drastically for women. Linguists, I am curious though, what do you hope to accomplish in your previous posts on… Read more »
If he thinks that it’s probably out of resentment cause no woman would give a damn about him, maybe just after his money or whatever.
The sexual market place is cruel and unforgiving. Everyone – men and women – wants to be with someone who is in the top 10% of desirability. For women that means tall, successful men. All men know this. That is why many men exaggerate their height and hint a professional/financial success on dating web sites. Women will only chose sperm at sperm banks from men 6 feet or over. Poor or short men may not like this – but that is just too bad. And the same goes for women with age and weight. Dating profiles for women over age… Read more »
Well, as the guy in Linguists post above, I can certainly say that my prospects turned around when I got older. Except for all his belittling stuff about women, I’d say that his comments they accord to the average dude with a good job who wasn’t in the top 10% of males, certainly was correct.
Life did get better in the sex and relationship department. Thank god for that!
You didn’t answer my question Linguist. I said: Linguists, I am curious though, what do you hope to accomplish in your previous posts on this subject ? What do you want women to take away from what you are saying? What do you hope to accomplish by saying the things you are about women? Wet One, my prospects also got better with age. Emotional maturity accounts for a good chunk of this. Having the ability to pick better partners after knowing more about yourself. Linguists lives in a world where women are living in holes with their cats and men… Read more »
I post for my own amusement. I don’t expect that my post will change the minds of women who played the field in their 20’s and are now committed to a lifestyle of short term boyfriends. Now you have to rationalize that “it only get’s better from here” and “I’m still desirable because I attract a steady string of short term relationships”. It might help young, inexperienced men who might read posts like Hugo’s and buy into his byzantine feminist rationalizations. I’m pretty sure what I’ve been writing resonates with the experiences of most men. Hugo is like an encyclopedia… Read more »
I think you post because of residual bitterness toward women Linguist. Lets spark a campfire and invite my girlfriends and we could tell you some good stories about our relationships with men. None all them are massive rejection of young men while we point and laugh. Sure, women do some rejecting. We don’t date every guy that asks. But we get rejected too. Your inability to understand that women experience the ups and downs of dating equates to your inability to see women as human beings. Perhaps if I was a perfect 10, I wouldn’t get rejected. Perhaps that’s where… Read more »
I never had a ton of boyfriends. I’ve never been attracted to arrogance and narcissism. I would gladly have dated a nerdy guy. And I don’t give a crap if a guy is athletic so long as he takes reasonable care of himself (which I do also). But even the nerdy guys often think they’re entitled to some supermodel! I have loads of male friends (not FWB’s because I don’t do that), own a home and have my own career, and would also have been perfectly willing to (and did at times) date a guy who didn’t make much money.… Read more »
@Linguist: LMAO! How can so many straight males be so silly! You are mostly saying older men marry younger women only. Younger women only date around older guys. That is just illogical. Most women want only 10%… pfff. And no, you are wrong, most women could care less about your money, they make their own. “And the same goes for women with age and weight.” – Actually, the same goes for both women and men. Most women want thin (but toned) and young guys. Maybe not necessarily younger, but definitely not that much older. Wake up. Your views are illogical,… Read more »
John D and Lisguist are the same dude. Or at least as screwed up as one another.
You’re right Lingquist.
As an example the venus de milo certainly didn’t look like a 170lb woman.
Even if you add in the missing arms.
Van Morrison? Really? Man that hurts. My favorite singer of all time. But then I have seen in him concert where he yelled at the audience and made clear he would rather be any other place on the planet. I don’t completely buy your argument about female beauty being about status to guys. I also got rightly reprimanded over on my column about the difference between beauty and fashion. Fashion is an art form that pretty much only women obsess over. Female bodies (“beauty”) is something men spend way too much time obsessing over, witness our use of porn et… Read more »
Well, Tom, do you agree with some of his argument about female beauty being about status to guys? Hugo didn’t say that status among other men was the only component of male sexuality. He just said it’s part of the whole package. Like it or not, Hugo has a valid point. Speaking of beauty issues, you need to have a column about male standards of grooming. Sorry, but most men nowadays have abused the casual dress codes. If guys want to get dates, they need to dress well and stay in good shape. And if they want women to respond… Read more »
Tom, the late, great Joanne Woodward said that she didn’t love Paul Newman because he was so handsome. She said she loved him because he made her laugh.
Hah! Joanne, if Paul were ugly, would you still love him? Come on, be honest.
I don’t believe it when people say, “My spouse is good looking but that’s not why I love him/’her.”
Actually, I DO kind of believe that statement. Here’s my point: she may REALLY have fallen in love with him because of his sense of humor. But she most likely only agreed to date him because of his looks. To my mind many women lose out by “screening” potential dates for income, the same way many men probably lose out by “screening” women based on looks. Many men may have missed their soulmates due to their unwillingness to date a plain jane. Many woman may have missed their soulmates by dating only white collar high earning professionals. I believe her… Read more »
The difference is most men screen women based on looks, and they expect the hottest. While most women could care less about a man’s income, they just want you to not be a lazy ass.
I love how you try to turn “men don’t care about what women are wearing” into “men don’t care about looks.” Men DO care about looks, we ALL admit we do. We DON’T care about what an attractive woman is wearing, not really. If you’re hot, you are hot whether you are wearing a t-shirt and jeans, or a $5,000 evening gown, with Jimmy Choos. If you are not hot, then you need to do what you can to make yourself more attractive, which can be done through clothes.
I was wondering if anyone was going to point that out. Hugo has blurred the lines between “caring about fashion” and “caring about looks.”
Men care a great deal about how a woman looks; we do indeed want youth, health, and beauty in our mates. What she’s wearing? Well, the better it shows off her own body, the more we like it… and that’s about it. Color, cloth, collar, sleeve length? Don’t care. The number of buttons doesn’t matter unless we’re counting how many are undone.
“Men care a great deal about how a woman looks; we do indeed want youth, health, and beauty in our mates. What she’s wearing? Well, the better it shows off her own body, the more we like it… and that’s about it.”
The same goes for women, we also care a great deal. The problem is, mst men want to believe we don’t lie to themselves and just WON’T be attractive for women. And then complain women do not ask guys out…
Hugo is right. I’ll never forget the time I went to a football game with two gorgeous young things (one of whom I asked on a date and she asked if her friend could come along. Lucky me, the friend was as hot as the girl I asked out). So many compliments from men at the game on having two gorgeous women with me. And the looks and thumbs up I got… Sigh, let’s just say it was an ego booster for sure. Sadly, only got one date, but I was still learning how to play the game. I had… Read more »
Gorgeous young things? Women are not things.
Nope. You’re quite right. Their names were Lisa and Sheena too. Does that help?
Nope. You are just another dude who actually see women as things and less human but lie to himself that you don’t.
ARe you hot enough so she can feel the go boost when walking arounf with you as well? It seems men are so into their women’s looks that they forget women are not blind. You know, if she is hot I believe she puts a lot of effort into her looks as well. Do you do the same? Or is just another regular guy that could care less to appear attractive to your girl?
Let’s not forget that “I think a woman can look great in jeans and a t-shirt without any make-up.” is often code for “I want a woman that looks flawlessly sexy from the second she wakes until the second she sleeps without an effort whatsoever.”
True story. The fact is that most men know so little about clothes/makeup that they can’t even tell how much effort was put into looking a certain way. A guy might look at someone and think that she’s not wearing makeup when she’s actually wearing quite a bit. They don’t like sloppy or obvious makeup is what they mean. Expecting someone to effortlessly match a social ideal is so unrealistic. It’s like if a woman wants a beefcake who doesn’t go to the gym, doesn’t wax his body, doesn’t use any products, and eats whatever he wants. It’s just not… Read more »
Great points, Keythah and Lindsey.
Well said and spot on,Keyath.
Hugo’s assertions are spot on and every woman knows it. Not all men are shallow and seek to claim their trophy woman, but there are too many who do. Walk down the streets of New York and see what happens. How many men, who are with another woman, will leave her to pursue the “hot” model? How many men avoid the “grenade” (I hate that term) in favor of the beauty in her party? Sorry guys, I’m with Hugo on this one – having witnessed and experienced what he’s describing. Women know it’s not enough to be a good person… Read more »
The cliche about men leaving their wives for younger women is as tired as it is wrong. Women initiate 70% of the divorces. There used to be, in my parents time, a respect for marriage that protected women. Men would marry young women in their prime, and only a cad would leave them after their had faithfully stood by then and bore their children.
But those days are gone. Today both men and women are exposed to the laws of the jungle that favor successful dominant men and young attractive women.
Women initiate most divorces because men won’t even when both parties know the marriage is over. You just said yourself that no man could possibly be attracted to a woman over 40, not even his own wife apparently, and if they stick around its only out of “respect” for marriage. So if that’s true (not that I believe it is) why would a woman want to stay with a man who feels that way about her? Sounds better to be single.
Yeah, itiating a divorce and causing one are two different things. I’ve never come across any data that explains the reasons that the women file, although I’m sure “my husband has a younger girlfriend” is definitely in the mix to some degree.
I think its the other way around. Women want divorces 90% of the time. They initiate 70% of all divorces and the other 20% is men who initiate because they know their wife wants out.
Lindsey says:
Yeah, itiating a divorce and causing one are two different things. I’ve never come across any data that explains the reasons that the women file
======
Prepare to be enlightened.
Per this 46,000 divorce 4-state study, it appears women initiate divorce 66% more often than men.
The reasons why seem to be different variations on her being bored.
Also, many women state they initiated the divorce because they knew they would get child custody.
ht tp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/
Exactly. Women may initiate the divorce but it’s often because the man is cheating with a younger woman, but thinks he’s being a “good guy” by not deserting his family.
What you perceive to be a bygone “respect” for marriage kept women from divorcing abusive husbands and having greater autonomy generally. Women didn’t divorce as much in large part because laws were typically much more restrictive. That’s hardly something to idealize.
Yeah, they just keep improving marriage. That is why fewer and fewer people get married.
Wrong Maxwell: Before no-fault divorce, divorce laws were fair and equitable and gender-blind. It was ruled by contractual obligation laws. In essence it broke down like this: A spouse had to sue for divorce. If the suing spouse had grounds (i.e. the other spouse had done one of the four A’s: abuse, abandonment, addiction, adultery) then the suing spouse got the lions share of assets, the house and custody. If the suing spouse had no grounds, then he/she was seen to be abrogating (cutting short) the marriage contract. In essence it allowed a truly wronged spouse to get the lions… Read more »
Most women could care less about “dominant successful men”… unless that man looks like Ian Somerhalder or is good looking enough (we are much more forgiving than men, do not worry, and we even settle for someone that is out of our league – less) and has a heart of gold. 😛 Thanks for admitting men could care less about a woman’s faithfulness, loyalty and actual love and only care about women’s looks. Why would you believe that is something that men of today should not care about anymore is beyond me, but I guess men never actually cared about… Read more »
“The difference being, women will call the witch out on her behavior – publically.” What exactly does that look like? I’m curious.
Also, does that make you a better person somehow? If so, how? I don’t really understand.
Thanks!
I’m sorry, what? Women publicly call out “witches” who leave their husbands? Do you have any examples of this, because I’m a little confused as to what you mean having never personally witnessed this phenomenon. And let’s keep in mind, men target different women depending on what their end goal is. If they’re single and they want to get laid, maybe they are targeting the cheerleaders, beauty queens, etc. And to that I say so what?? Most of the women in my single days went for tall, dark and handsome. That sucked because I’m none of those, but oh well.… Read more »
I think that what Melis was saying is that there are more social consequences for women who cheat, rather than men. And I do agree with that. I think that a woman is more likely to see cheating on a partner as an indication of poor character, which would make them less likely to be friends with a person. I’ve definitely heard women say that they’ve backed off a friendship because their friend’s cheating made them respect him/her less or made them uncomfortable. I’ve never heard that from a guy. It probably does happen, maybe just not to the same… Read more »
Lindsey says:
I think that what Melis was saying is that there are more social consequences for women who cheat, rather than men.
========
Two words:
Tiger woods
We know you will look at other (younger, better looking) women. Just don’t be a dick about it.
I’d prefer to hear Melis reply myself so we know what she (I assume it’s a she) is saying.
Jill: “We know you will look at other (younger, better looking) women. Just don’t be a dick about it.” Exactly. No one would care about someone checking out an attractive person if attractiveness didn’t hold such WEIGHT. I mean, I think it’s as much fun to look at a hot young guy as the next woman, but that’s all it is – FUN. I’m not seriously thinking of approaching him or having an affair with him just because he’s young and hot. To me it’s just “Oooh, isn’t he cute” and then I move on. There’s nothing wrong with appreciating… Read more »
I couldn’t agree more. It’s the weight that attractiveness hold to men that is threatening, not the attractiveness itself.
It’s been proven that looking at attractive women fires the reward part of mens brains. I don’t have the link handy, but I remember reading that brain scans revealed that men looking at pictures of beautiful women had scans very similar to a heroine addict getting a fix. I think linguist states it precisely right: At one time society socialized men and women to marry young when both sexes had their hormones in over-drive (and also this meant more age-similar marriages). The culture and divorce laws HEAVILY shunned men who divorced. Even very rich and powerful men who had divorced… Read more »
Yes, women only date criminals and men with bad character in their 20’s… and that is a female problem, how? If young females are dating so many bad guys/criminals like that, that is proof we have too many bad and criminal men in our society. As researches show women do not date only a small pool of men, so yeah… why are men so twisted that most will become bad guys and criminal, thugs and jerks? Your logic said that, not me. 🙂 “If you want real change–then support shared parenting advocates. Shaming male libido won’t fix anything (and it’s… Read more »
That’s cool as long as you keep my bank accounts topped off. Touch any of those babes, though, and you’ll end up lonely and broke in the poor house.
“The female insecurity on this site is staggering.” Women are judged mostly by their looks. Most men believe a woman’s looks is their most important or only attribute. Women pass their 40 are just told they are worthless as human beings now because hey, if men cannot find you attractive what is your worth as a woman? Women are attacked all the time, mostly by men (and when attacked by women it does never hold the same power, for obvious reasons of gender, same social groups, etc.), for just not fitting the beauty standard, and boys/men will keep making fun… Read more »
Melis, I agree that Hugo’s assertions are spot-on. I have heard so many men say that their wives or gifrlfriends are “arm candy” that they want to impress their male friends with.
The fact that they say this doesn’t necessarily equate to that being the main reason they’re with them. I am reasonably sure that they would be with the “arm candy” even if no other men were around. Perhaps especially if there were no other men around because then they would have the pick of all the women. Of course, the term eye candy wouldn’t make any sense (except if there were lots of lesbians who found the same woman attractive, but wouldn’t the fact that there were lots of lesbians make up for the one who went with the man?… Read more »
Yes, this is another common line that I hear from men: “Sure, my wife/girlfriend is hot, but that’s not the reason I’m with her. She could be the hottest woman on earth but I wouldn’t be in love with her if she wasn’t a great person…” yada yada.
OK, now what if she was the same great person but not so hot? Would you still be with her? Would you even have noticed her? That’s the question most guys do not want to answer.
LF Says: Yes, this is another common line that I hear from men: “Sure, my wife/girlfriend is hot, but that’s not the reason I’m with her. She could be the hottest woman on earth but I wouldn’t be in love with her if she wasn’t a great person…” yada yada. OK, now what if she was the same great person but not so hot? ============ I’ve often thought the same thing about women married to men who make $100k or more. I wonder if they would stay with those men if they were suddenly poor. You never hear about a… Read more »
ht tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiSKxw2B2PU&feature=related
Start watching at the 30second mark.
ht tp://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3318366/Wealth-is-key-for-marriage-study-claims.h tml
Women place a premium on a mate’s wealth and status.
Surely, women could find good personality traits among low-earners, but (a generous portion of women) exclude even begin looking at those men for important traits.
They only are willing to look at men who are upper middle class or higher.
So, please don’t act like men have a monopoly on dehumanizing people.
“I’ve often thought the same thing about women married to men who make $100k or more. I wonder if they would stay with those men if they were suddenly poor. You never hear about a plumber, social worker, or laid-off man being a “good catch” among men when women talk.” Most women would. Most women even stay with their husbands while they are extremely sick or cancerous in the hospital… men leave their women in this situation much, much more. That is true about the jobs, though. That is difficult to hear about a woman praising her husband for having… Read more »
Pure projection. It’s women who value men as trophies. Men love beautiful women, for the same reason that women prefer jerks/confident suave guys: titillation. Men don’t date beautiful women for approval from other men (if that is so how do you explain so many male politicians dating young sexy women on the side and keeping it secret FROM EVERYBODY for many years?). Men date beautiful women because it activates the reward center of our brain, just as women date extroverted confident men (or sometimes even jerks or even cruel lady killers if need be, over shy guys) for titillation. Women… Read more »
“Men date beautiful women because it activates the reward center of our brain, just as women date extroverted confident men (or sometimes even jerks or even cruel lady killers if need be, over shy guys) for titillation.” As if men didn’t date cruel women who destroy their families, abuse them and their kids for “titilation”. As if women didn’t find it rewaring, in a psychological and emotional way, to ride the cock of a hot, young and fit male. Women marrying men only for their physical attributes or for the sex is much rarer than men doing it, though, and… Read more »
This is a pretty interesting comparison to Tom Matlack’s recent, “Are Women Addicted to Beauty?” article. The difference being Tom seems to recognize there are two forces at work (one force saying men want a specific woman to the exclusion of other women and the other saying men just want sex with women) while Hugo just decides that there is only one force at work.
Spin hamster spin. Your premise that men date attractive women to impress other men is laughable – as is the claim that they care about fashion. If men cared about fashion, then why is it that no amount of money spent on clothes will make a n old or fat woman attractive to men? Lets recap the obvious that everyone knows: What we call ‘attractiveness’ in women is a correlate with fertility. Young, fertile looking women are attractive. Curves – like large breasts, narrow waist and wide hips signal sexual maturity and fertility. Nice hair and skin is a signal… Read more »
The most attractive women – to all straight men – are in their early 20s. I’d change that to “most” rather than “all” but that’s a minor nitpick. When any man dates a woman above her 20s it is because he could not attract one younger. All things being equal any man would prefer younger. Save your denials – they ring hollow. Hold up. I think you may be leaping a bit here to apply this to all men that date women past their 20s. And as a man that actually has a preference for women that could be called… Read more »
Linguist,
I have always avoided men like you. Frankly, your theories make you a less desireable partner. Hope you enjoy your solitary retirement.
And yet my bed is never cold.
No, just your heart.
Yeah, because anonymous people on the internet tend to be really truthful about their sexual habits. Let me guess, you’re 6’4″, work in banking, own several vacation homes, and often get mistaken for Brad Pitt?
I’m with Jill – guys like you tend to turn off women pretty quickly. There’s nothing like being told you have an expiration date to make women run the other way.
Wow everything in his post is subjective, cruel, and full of woman-hate.
I don’t believe you.
So what would you tell a woman who’s out of her 20’s? That she’s genetically screwed? That she should just accept that no one finds her attractive? The biological arguments are just completely unfounded. There are no studies that can prove that men are biologically attracted to a certain women. There are evolutionary theories, but those are scientifically impossible to prove. Correlation doesn’t prove causation. The attraction to younger women could be caused by any number of things, including the social factors that Hugo is attempting to convey. No one would suggest that because rich guys tend to buy nice… Read more »
“So what would you tell a woman who’s out of her 20′s? That she’s genetically screwed? That she should just accept that no one finds her attractive? ”
I would say, hard beans, now you know what it feels like to have 0 value on the meat market. Considering how feminists have screamed their head off about the right to preference I think a saying in my native language is very appropriate. Be wary, the one’s you kick in the face on you way up are the same ones that catch you when you fall.
Sure, people have a right to chose. But, that doesn’t mean that shallow choices have to be supported. there’s a pretty big gap between what people have the right to do and what is most kind, most humane, most valuable, and least shallow. If you’re bitter about your lack of human connection, why don’t you try sympathizing with people rather than pushing them away?
Actually, that proverb (as I’ve heard it) is a little different the way I have heard it. It goes: be careful who’s ass you kick on the way up. You may have to kiss it on the way down. That was always told in the context of workplace political back-stabbing. But it can apply equally for dating. Part A) In their 20’s women go for jocks and jerks because they titillate them. The boring hard-working poindexters get passed over. Part B) when the same women hit their 40’s after riding jock/jerk c**k most of the fertile years (and the jocks… Read more »
Yup. Then poindexter finds out his lovely little sweety-pie is screwing every jock in town on the sly and using him to pay for the breast implants. So the world turns. One would think at some point all you poindexters would figure out just how pathetic you actually are and just deal. Oh well, lots of plastic surgeons are paying alimony on your dime. C’est le guerre.
lol
Did I strike a nerve suzy?
No, she said the truth. No younger girl will get turned on by these old guys. They can even have sex with them (gross), but then will cheat on them with any young hot guy they can find. Just common sense.
In fact, I have seen cases where the girls were taking te old man’s money and using it with their side young hot guys. That was hilarious.
Yes, when I was in my early 20s I was so very annoyed by the hot, young men in their 20s. I just wanted an older man with a belly, aging skin, graying hair, close to impotence, many of them with children, who enjoyed making reference about movies, tv shows, and music I hadn’t even heard of, who would treat me mostly like a child because we really aren’t on the same page and maturity, who my friends would laugh at behind my back and make fun of me for being a gold digger of having daddy issues, and who… Read more »
Marilyn Monroe would not be a size 0. I heard that she was actually a size 10.
She was 5’5”, 120 lbs with a 22 inch waist. You calculate the dress size.
I really hope you make a ton of money – because that’s the only way my pert, young 24 year old body would get into your bed. If you don’t make a ton of money (or the moment you stop making a ton of money), you are a failure in life and instantly less attractive to me. It goes both way, sweetie! 🙂
Sure, and don’t forget to keep straying with young, hot and fit dudes.. not that I have to remind you of that. 😉 He wants a baby with you, using his own worthless 35y/o+ male sperm? Yeeeeeek… just get one of your side dudes to get you pregnant instead so you will have a healthy baby. Or tell him you want to do that using artificial ways, just “to be sure you will get pregnant as fast as possible” because hey, you *love him sooo much* you can’t wait to have a baby of an old dude! And then get… Read more »
“Curves – like large breasts, narrow waist and wide hips signal sexual maturity and fertility.” Le absurdity. Large breasts mean more pregnancy than fertility. Women can have it all and be infertile; nature is not that dumb. Men, males in general, are attracted to the woman’s smell. When she is sexually mature (that is what ACTUALLY attracts males in all nature) she has a smell that attracted men. Even today men can still sense that smell. They don’t have to be that young, though – in nature females are still wanted and desired as long as they can procreate, and… Read more »
Yes, I want a hot girlfriend/wife. Interestingly, my hot is very different than my friends’ hot. And yes, I want my girlfriend/wife to look good but not slutty when we go out. I have no problem admitting that because it’s not anything negative. Physical attraction is an important part of a relationship for me and many other men. That’s perfectly natural and nothing to feel bad about. I’m not going to be with someone romantically if I’m not attracted to her. Why would I? And dressing appropriately seems to be more of a common sense issue. Why would I want… Read more »
Admitting that all of us are impacted by our male chauvinistic society would be a good place fo you to start, Daddy Files.
Culture is like second hand smoke. Quite a few of us don’t smoke, but it still gets into our lungs.
Am I alone in wanting to see Hugo’s dissertation in psychology? He talks like he holds at least a Phd in the subject the way he formulates his thesis.
The funny thing is, he’ll start disparaging psychologists the moment they say something he doesn’t agree with.
I’m not making this up either, google his name and the term “pop psychology” and you can see his baseless attacks on common psychological theories.
If you don’t agree with Hugo Guys, why don’t you state why on an intellectual level instead of personally attacking him. I really don’t see either of your, 8of10 and Mike, posts have to do with the subject except to use it as a scape goat to attack the writer of the article, not what’s actually in the content intellectually. DaddyFiles, ironically, while you clearly feel stigmatized as a man for being seen as shallow, while conversely using “we are men and we like attractive women” line, your perception of the article and thinking it’s reducing physical attraction to being… Read more »
Erin, I have written complex critiques of MANY of Hugo’s past posts. It gets tiring. Unlike other writers at GMP Hugo completely ignores the comments threads, and so the same points can be brought up againt and again in all of his posts because he never address any of them. As it’s not my job to be an editor for Hugo, I don’t see why I need to do anything other than lodge an existing complaint on the off chance he actually stops by a comment thread on day. Additionally, it seems a might hypocritical of you to single out… Read more »
I don’t think he is ignoring the comment threads. I think he chooses not to comment so that the dialogue on his piece doesn’t gets over ridden with drama. He states his opinion and he lets us state ours. He allows all of us instead to have our own thoughts and ideas and share them without his presence in the comments portion to deter from that conversation. We already know his opinion anyway so why would we need it in the comments portion? Yes, I singled you two out because I’ve seen repeat comments from both of you and because… Read more »
Erin the problem with the post is that it assumes one standard of beauty. Do you even know what a “thick” girl is? I’d define thick as between 110 and 120% of her BMI, probably a size 8 or 9. I prefer the thin look, but I know four guys, all tem years younger than I, who like them thick. Beauty magazines may not have bought into this trend, but a sizeable number of younger guys have. I have a friend who could talk his way into any woman’s bed. His girlfriends were gorgeous. He married the one woman who… Read more »
“Yes, I want a hot girlfriend/wife. Interestingly, my hot is very different than my friends’ hot”
That is precisely what I was thinking. I’m picking a girlfriend that I think is beautiful, not someone my friends think is I’ve also noticed that when I find a woman who is kind, intelligent and outgoing, I become physically attracted to her even if the attraction was not there initially. A female friend told me that when you care about someone, you don’t see them the same way.
You sound like an immature child. That’s the truth.
I don’t know about two things here: First, the idea that men claim not to care about women’s looks. In my experience, men don’t care about makeup and fashion *because they think women already look good*, not because they don’t. I’ve talked with plenty of men who say they think that stuff is ridiculous because they find the “natural look” more appealing–and perhaps that’s because it’s a better display of the goods? I don’t know. (I’m also pretty sure that most men only think they don’t like makeup on a woman. They just want the makeup that doesn’t look like… Read more »
There was a test done that had men look at one woman in three stages of make-up. The first stage was “a little” make-up. The second stage was a medium amount of make-up and the third stage was a lot of make-up. They first asked these men how much make-up do they like on a woman. Most of them said “a little” or that they liked a more natural look. They then showed the men the three different pictures of the same girl (in the same pose and with the same clothes on) and asked which picture was the most… Read more »
Great points. What constitutes “a little” to men and women regarding makeup could be totally different, and apparently is.
I learned years ago to prefer the attractive woman to the beautiful woman. Extreme beauty is usually manipulative. Often constructed by its wearer.
Ahhh Jaysus, I’m not sure what to make of this article Hugo, I get what your trying to say – I’m just not sure I buy your argument. I really think your selling the Gents out there short! Don’t you think that this works both ways? … I would imagine the proportion of men that go for really good looking women for the reasons you suggested would be similar to the proportion of women who go for really good looking men for the same reasons you suggested?? I don’t think the search for status is sexually bias, the high school… Read more »