Her Looks, Your Status: Why Men’s Claims Not to Care About Beauty Ring Hollow

Male sexual desire, Hugo Schwyzer writes, is shaped by a desire for the approval of other men.

One of the enduring myths about female beauty is that it’s not something about which men really care all that much. Van Morrison sang about girls who went out at night “dressed up for each other,” and few men question the wisdom of that famous line. Ask most men—perhaps particularly straight men—about women and beauty and you’ll get the same sort of answer:

I don’t care that much about fashion. I think a woman can look great in jeans and a t-shirt without any make-up. I don’t understand why women take so long to get ready/spend so much time stressing about clothes/worry so incessantly about their looks. Don’t they know that most dudes don’t really care about that stuff?

I’ve heard versions of that spiel from a great many guys. Most women have heard something similar from husbands, boyfriends, or would-be suitors. It’s one of our basic cultural assumptions about beauty, fashion, and the modern female: this obsession with looks is something women do to themselves. The judgment and the criticism are largely woman-to-woman. Men may be a bit clueless, the trope suggests, but they’re much more accepting of women than women are of each other.

♦◊♦

At best, that’s an incomplete understanding of the issue.

Yes, it’s true that fashion is about a good deal more than simply making women attractive to men. Not every aesthetic decision is linked to a sexual agenda, a point made cleverly and creatively at popular sites like The Man Repeller. Many women’s passion for fashion has little at all to do with wanting to attract or keep a man. To pick an obvious stereotypical parallel: high school boys don’t go out for sports solely to impress girls (though that’s often one secondary factor among many in their decision-making process). Many men love sports for their own sake, irrespective of their appeal (or lack thereof) to women. The exact same thing is true of beauty. Men make a colossal error in assuming that those women who are fascinated with fashion (not all are, of course) are looking for ways to make themselves more sexually alluring.

But it’s also true that men care much more about women’s looks than they let on. And women know it.

Straight men aren’t just sexually attracted to women. They’re also, all too frequently, attracted to what beautiful women can do for their status in the eyes of other guys. Even those who are leery of claims that a “Guy Code” exists outside of feminist theory (or beer commercials) acknowledge that having hot girlfriends is the sine qua non of being an alpha male.

The desire for the approval of other men shapes straight men’s sexual desires. Think of the very reasonable claims of many men that they’re not attracted to size zero, skin-and-bones supermodels. Lots of guys claim, with apparent sincerity, that they love women with “curves.” So why are men so interested in dating skinny models? (A question asked and answered brilliantly in Ted Demme’s marvelous Beautiful Girls.) The answer, of course, is that a great many men care as much about what other guys think of their girlfriends and wives as they do about their own desires. The young guy who claims to love curves may be sincere, but he may also have to endure the taunts of his peers, who’ll call him a “chubby chaser” – or simply remark dismissively, “Dude, your chick’s fat.”

♦◊♦

Put simply, it’s not about the sex, it’s about the status.

In Guy World, models imbue their beaux with a special and rare cachet in the eyes of other men. And that cachet is more than worth dating a woman with a body type that is less of a turn-on than a great many people imagine. This isn’t true of all men. But it drives a great many guys throughout their lives: from high school boys who sense the homosocial boost of dating a cheerleader to middle-aged men who suddenly start dating “hotties” half their age. Put simply, it’s not about the sex, it’s about the status.

Whether or not they can name this phenomenon for what it is, a lot of women know that men are being too cute by half when they come out with that “I prefer women in jeans and a t-shirt” line. As my friend Annemarie puts it: “I know my boyfriend thinks I’m hot whatever I wear. But I also know that when we go out he wants me to look hot for his friends too. Sexy, but not slutty. He just knows how bad that sounds if he asks for it, so he just hints at it. It’s chickenshit, but it’s par for the course with most guys.”

That line between what’s considered “sexy” or “classy” and what’s considered “slutty” or “trying too hard” is a very difficult one for young women to negotiate. Because it’s an inherently subjective distinction, women have to consider their own comfort level, their own aesthetic sense, the expectations of the setting into which they’ll be going, and the reactions of virtually everyone whom they’ll encounter when they’re out. Telling them “it doesn’t matter, you look great whatever you wear” sounds nice–but most women know that it isn’t that simple. (I remember when my first serious college girlfriend first met my parents. She tried on what had to have been seven different outfits. When I snapped with exasperation to “Just pick something already,” she snapped back “Easy for you to say. You know damn well this matters, and not just to you.”)

Just as so many young women know they’re expected to negotiate effortlessly the sexy/slutty distinction, many aging women know well that they live in a culture in which their looks are given a cruel, arbitrary sell-by date. Not every man over 40 stares at hot girls half his age; not every middle-aged father prefers to masturbate to images of “barely legal teens” rather than “MILFS” when he’s alone with his laptop. But enough aging men do sexualize very young women—and disparage their female peers—to send a loud and clear message to women on the high side of 35.

♦◊♦

Men can’t have it both ways—insisting that beauty and make-up and clothes are irrelevant and bewildering wastes of time, and then responding with such unmistakable desire to those whose skin is youthful, and whose ability to negotiate the sexy/slutty dichotomy seems the most natural and effortless.  Well-meaning compliments have to be backed up by our actions. And in our contemporary culture, women take their cues about what really matters as much from our actions as they do from Vogue and Project Runway. Admitting that would be a good place for guys to start.

Photo kedai-lelaki/Flickr

More on Women’s Obsession with Beauty

Chasing Beauty: An Addict’s Memoir

Are Women Addicted to Beauty?

Her Looks, Your Status: Why His Claims Not to Care About Beauty Ring Hollow

The Ugly Duckling as a Gender-Neutral Beauty Ideal

 

Don’t Hate Me Because I’m Beautiful

 

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About Hugo Schwyzer

Hugo Schwyzer has taught history and gender studies at Pasadena City College since 1993, where he developed the college's first courses on Men and Masculinity and Beauty and Body Image. He serves as co-director of the Perfectly Unperfected Project, a campaign to transform young people's attitudes around body image and fashion. Hugo lives with his wife, daughter, and six chinchillas in Los Angeles. Hugo blogs at his website

Comments

  1. “Male sexual desire is shaped by a desire for the approval of other men.”

    Let me get this straight: I want to have sex with a certain woman because another man finds her attractive? Are you sure you want to go with that?

    Ridiculous. Rubbish.

    When you are contemplating marriage, who cares what someone else thinks of her looks when it’s you who will have to wake up looking at that face for 50-70 years?

    When I first say my now wife years ago, I was struck with her beauty, grace, intelligence, shyness, and other attributes. My view of her had NOTHING to do with the approval of other men, women, make-up or clothes.

    • The Wet One says:

      Smart men have that thought, dumb ones, not so much…

      • Regardless, sexual desire has nothing to do with a desire to impress someone else.

        • The point of the article appears to be that sexual desire is not the only deciding factor in chosing a mate.

          • That there are other influences is obvious (e.g. some women prefer a man who can support a family on his own should she choose to not work for a while) but that’s not what he said. It’s his same predictably incoherent misandristic drivel repackaged.

            • The Wet One says:

              I concur. As much as I enjoy the envy of other men for my wonderful sweet love, that isn’t the reason that I’m with her, or even considered her. It’s just a bonus. Nothing more.

    • Yeah, I don’t agree with Hugo that most guys are attracted to women because of what other men will think. It’s a factor with some guys, but not all by any means. I do agree with the rest of the post though – men do send mixed messages about what they’re attracted to. They say they love women for things other than looks but then make it obvious that they really don’t. You’re obviously no exception, Eric – you say that when you first met your wife “I was struck with her beauty, grace, intelligence, shyness, and other attributes.” I see what is first on the list. If she’d had the same intelligence but not so much of the beauty and grace, would you even have noticed her? I doubt it.

    • Agreed Eric,

      Female feminists have been stating this for the last 40 years (think trophy wives, or Stepford Wives).
      Why we have been listening to a small group of women talk about male sexuality for the last 40 years I don’t know.

      IN this case, this is pure projection. It is women far more than men who choose their mates to please their friends. How often do you hear women bragging that their husband is a doctor or lawyer, or some other form of elite? It is far more often that women see men as a status symbol.

      The simple fact is that men are addicted to beauty. It activates the reward center of a man’s brain to look at a sexy woman.

      It feels more rewarding and exciting to look at, feel the curves of, have intimacies with and orgasm with beautiful women case closed.
      ht tp://www.livescience.com/9834-hourglass-figures-affect-men-brains-drug.ht ml

      The fact that many male feminists sign on board to this patent fraud, just to advance their careers to try to make themselves some kind of female-civil-rights-equivalent of Dr. Oz is just sad and pathetic.

      And, it will not bring female fandom as they expect. Hugo’s huge tirade about older men dating young women smelled distinctly of sour grapes watching much more misogynistic men dating the kind of women he wishes he had the ability to pickup.

      I’m really sick of Hugo’s shaming male libido. I hope tgmp starts rotating him out of their roster. But, I doubt that as his threads I am sure bring lots of comments and views (and I acknowledge the irony that I am adding to that).

      • Justa Soares says:

        “IN this case, this is pure projection. It is women far more than men who choose their mates to please their friends. How often do you hear women bragging that their husband is a doctor or lawyer, or some other form of elite? It is far more often that women see men as a status symbol.”

        Not at all. Women brag about anything their men do. Their job, their talent, their artistically abilities, the kisses they give them when they wake up in the morning… that is all because we actually care for men as full human being. We are PROUD of our men. Are are proud that they are hard-working and managed to get there or learn anything by themselves and/or by their own will. And I’m sure men love to know their women respect them and are proud of them. Unlike men who, usually, treat their women’s dreams, hard-work and achievements as nothing at all… women are not valued for their contribution to the world, unless it is for their decoration or child-bearing capacities. Women are just decoration that should be there smiling and pleasing their men (and popping some babies in the end), right? So why would men ever care about anything else and their humanity?

        “It feels more rewarding and exciting to look at, feel the curves of, have intimacies with and orgasm with beautiful women case closed.”
        Of course, it also feels much more rewarding and exciting to look at (and masturbate to), feel the muscles of, have intimacy and orgasm with hot, toned men case closed.
        But still women are not acting like entitled idiots who believe they deserve a man like that, even more when they are not hot as well. Even less are they constantly humiliating men they could believe are less than hot enough.
        Men on the other hand, keep doing that all the freaking time. Even more now that we have the anonymity of the internet.

        That is not about shaming libido, stop with the victimization. That is about QUESTIONING why these things happen, and the actual bullshit behind it.

  2. “Male sexual desire is shaped by a desire for the approval of other men.” Its actually women that use pre-selection by other women as a measure.

    Do you have any studies to back up your assertions Hugo.

    Also, your depiction of all the action as being on the on the male side and the female role as passive and lead is deeply sexist and patriarchal.

    • Yeah, I wouldn’t hold my breath. Women’s Studies has clearly become an echo chamber, based on the premise that an oft-repeated idea is true and need not be thought out critically.

    • Jun Kafiotties says:

      There are some men and women who seek approval of their peers in order to feel fine in dating a person. Some men and WOMEN also desire a partner with a lot of status in order to raise their own.

      It’s great to advocate that we should pick more than just sexual attraction in a partner but speaking for all men about this issue simply generalizes way too much. Attraction varies from person to person and even “ugly” people find love, the article leaves A LOT to be desired.

  3. Ahhh Jaysus, I’m not sure what to make of this article Hugo, I get what your trying to say – I’m just not sure I buy your argument. I really think your selling the Gents out there short!

    Don’t you think that this works both ways? … I would imagine the proportion of men that go for really good looking women for the reasons you suggested would be similar to the proportion of women who go for really good looking men for the same reasons you suggested?? I don’t think the search for status is sexually bias, the high school girl how goes out with the star QB is socially elevated in exactly the same way and the boy who dates the head cheerleader.. but that’s high school! When we get older and wiser that just becomes superficial and superficial is, as superficial does.. for both sexes.

    Men may say “ I don’t care how she dresses,” but they really do, that’s exactly the same as the way women say they are attracted to a sense of humour over looks, we all know that’s not exactly true; but is it really that damaging?.. we all know that looks are a factor, but we also know that it’s never the be all and end all. It’s a confluence of factors – and proportions in which they come as a package in an individual that lead to a meaningful attraction as opposed to a meaningless superficial tryst.

    I have also heard “you look as good to me in jeans and a t-shirt as you do on a night out”, many times from male friends – and I’ve never doubted their sincerity, the thing is dressing down and lack of effort are not the same thing. I would interpret the above statement to mean that on Saturday afternoon when we’re walking the dogs or playing with the children and you’re in jeans and shirt you look as good to me as you do when you get dressed up for a night on the town, it’s about the outfit being appropriate for the occasion… not the clothes themselves.
    On the flip side, there are times when one catchs a glimpse of ones guy outside playing soccer (I’m European) with the lads, and he will look as hot as he does in his suit. The “you look as good to me in jeans and a t-shirt as you do on a night out” statement works both ways too.

    Oh and lastly – we ladies find it difficult to negotiate the sexy/slutty distinction? Aw pet, it’s getting dressed, it’s not rocket science, we know if something is slutty, some of us like the attention that gets us and some don’t. Sometimes it’s a bit trial and error, I might get something that flirts with the distinction between the two, and it might end up a bit on the slutty side, depending on how I’m feeling on the day, I’ll knowingly wear it or I won’t… but do be so naive to think that we don’t know the difference when we choose what to wear…

    I do take your point about the sexualisation of young girls, it happens and it’s getting alarmingly younger and younger…. but I can’t imagine it’s very easy for you boys to see posters of a chiselled Taylor whatever his name is from Twilight, everywhere either. The simple fact is there are a more than one multimillion dollar industry pushing these images at us and our youth and it’s up to us the grownups to say – it’s just looks – it’s a factor.. but not the only one, to both our boys and girls!

  4. Henry Vandenburgh says:

    I learned years ago to prefer the attractive woman to the beautiful woman. Extreme beauty is usually manipulative. Often constructed by its wearer.

  5. I don’t know about two things here: First, the idea that men claim not to care about women’s looks. In my experience, men don’t care about makeup and fashion *because they think women already look good*, not because they don’t. I’ve talked with plenty of men who say they think that stuff is ridiculous because they find the “natural look” more appealing–and perhaps that’s because it’s a better display of the goods? I don’t know. (I’m also pretty sure that most men only think they don’t like makeup on a woman. They just want the makeup that doesn’t look like makeup.)

    But I also don’t really know about the whole status symbol thing. I’ve gone out with plenty of guys and while I’ve occasionally felt like there’s an element of pride about showing me off to his friends, for the most part I haven’t felt that. I’ve only felt that when the relationship is casual and shallow and everyone knows it, you know? Now, maybe that’s because I’m not stunningly good-looking–perhaps if I groomed myself in such a way that indicated I might think of myself as a status symbol, or simply possessed a remarkable beauty, I’d have had different experiences. But neither am I plain, and certainly the men who have neglected to parade me around like a status symbol have not neglected to comment on how *they, personally* find me beautiful.

    My question here is: Who are these men? And why, in 20+ years of dating, have I only run across a spoonful of them? (It’s not like I’m always picking prizes, either–I’ve gone out with some jerks, but not men who treat me like a Ferrari.) I’ve no doubt they exist, but it’s a particular *kind* of man that in my experience is far less common than what’s warranted by a headline about “men’s claims.”

    • There was a test done that had men look at one woman in three stages of make-up. The first stage was “a little” make-up. The second stage was a medium amount of make-up and the third stage was a lot of make-up. They first asked these men how much make-up do they like on a woman. Most of them said “a little” or that they liked a more natural look. They then showed the men the three different pictures of the same girl (in the same pose and with the same clothes on) and asked which picture was the most attractive. Most men picked the medium amount of make-up. Men don’t wear make-up so it’s only normal that they would have no idea how much is “a little” make-up or “a lot”.

      Also. if you take an attractive girl wearing old clothes, she isn’t going to get as many looks as an attractive girl wearing current clothes. I’ve gone out in tees and sweats and I don’t get as many looks as when I wear boots and a tight top.

      • Great points. What constitutes “a little” to men and women regarding makeup could be totally different, and apparently is.

  6. Yes, I want a hot girlfriend/wife. Interestingly, my hot is very different than my friends’ hot. And yes, I want my girlfriend/wife to look good but not slutty when we go out. I have no problem admitting that because it’s not anything negative. Physical attraction is an important part of a relationship for me and many other men. That’s perfectly natural and nothing to feel bad about. I’m not going to be with someone romantically if I’m not attracted to her. Why would I? And dressing appropriately seems to be more of a common sense issue. Why would I want to be with someone dressed slutty? Of course the company you keep reflects on you. Again, that’s common sense and it works the same way for men and women.

    Finally, how can you criticize others for an “incomplete understanding” of the issue and then bust out this line: “The desire for the approval of other men shapes straight men’s sexual desires.” Talk about hypocrisy Hugo. I’m not saying that’s not true of some men, but you state it as if it’s indisputable fact. And I’m sorry, but you’re wrong about that. In fact, sometimes my desire for certain women has been to the consternation and confusion of my other straight friends.

    Give men some credit Hugo. We’re not all wandering around giving each other “thumbs up” when we see each other with a hot girl. Men have brains. We’re not all panting dogs obsessed with who’s got the hotter girlfriend. And we know that often hotter does not equal better.

    Admitting that would be a good place for you to start.

    • Admitting that all of us are impacted by our male chauvinistic society would be a good place fo you to start, Daddy Files.

      Culture is like second hand smoke. Quite a few of us don’t smoke, but it still gets into our lungs.

    • Am I alone in wanting to see Hugo’s dissertation in psychology? He talks like he holds at least a Phd in the subject the way he formulates his thesis.

      • The funny thing is, he’ll start disparaging psychologists the moment they say something he doesn’t agree with.

        I’m not making this up either, google his name and the term “pop psychology” and you can see his baseless attacks on common psychological theories.

        • If you don’t agree with Hugo Guys, why don’t you state why on an intellectual level instead of personally attacking him. I really don’t see either of your, 8of10 and Mike, posts have to do with the subject except to use it as a scape goat to attack the writer of the article, not what’s actually in the content intellectually.
          DaddyFiles, ironically, while you clearly feel stigmatized as a man for being seen as shallow, while conversely using “we are men and we like attractive women” line, your perception of the article and thinking it’s reducing physical attraction to being something that is wrong is actually an extremely shallow way to look at what Hugo is saying. Physical attraction is important for men and women, not just “you and other men” DaddyFiles. No one said physical attraction was wrong. What Hugo is addressing goes beyond physical attraction to touch on social norms women are held to that are unrealistic and that yes, many men buy into and do treat as status symbols. (You don’t and good for you but a lot of men do and I’ve seen it my entire life.) I never heard a man brag about how smart his girlfriend is but I have heard a lot of guys brag about having a younger girlfriend or how beautiful his girlfriend is. (Now again, clearly this doesn’t go for you but I’ve seen it regularly in my life from all kinds of men.) Is this to say men are brainless? Don’t be ridiculous. It’s about how men measure women. And while a man individually might love his woman’s good heart, (and good for him that he does) he is probably also *still* objectyfing other women in some way. Men don’t want to be seen as shallow but they don’t want to stop favoring women for shallow things either. They want to be able to say “I’m a man, of course I like attractive women!” But they don’t want their own partners to feel pangs when he is noticing other women younger or prettier then she is. Because he wants his shallowness to define his masculinity but he expects his own partner to be stronger then that and ignore his own behavior. That’s really what it comes down to. Men want women to be the stronger ones and not validate themselves for their beauty while they shamelessly connect their masculinity to how women look. Such as you did when you said how much men are men and how they like attractive women. When we touch on these kind of subjects, you’re often right on it’s coat tails whining about how men are being disenfranchised when the author is usually addressing something that disenfranchises women. In some twisted view point you can’t get past the idea that men don’t always treat women very well.

          • Erin,

            I have written complex critiques of MANY of Hugo’s past posts. It gets tiring. Unlike other writers at GMP Hugo completely ignores the comments threads, and so the same points can be brought up againt and again in all of his posts because he never address any of them. As it’s not my job to be an editor for Hugo, I don’t see why I need to do anything other than lodge an existing complaint on the off chance he actually stops by a comment thread on day.

            Additionally, it seems a might hypocritical of you to single out 8of10 and myself for your attack while ignoring at least a half-dozen posters who have posted the same way above us (Marie in particular added nothing in this exact comments thread, her post can be condenced to “I feel that society sucks”), yet you ignored them and went right at us.

            I suspect this has more to do with your opinion of our viewpoint than the actual contents of our posts. If you’re going to attack posters for failing to intellectualize their posts, at least attack all sides so you don’t make your own bias plain.

            • I don’t think he is ignoring the comment threads. I think he chooses not to comment so that the dialogue on his piece doesn’t gets over ridden with drama. He states his opinion and he lets us state ours. He allows all of us instead to have our own thoughts and ideas and share them without his presence in the comments portion to deter from that conversation. We already know his opinion anyway so why would we need it in the comments portion?

              Yes, I singled you two out because I’ve seen repeat comments from both of you and because what I wanted to comment on came on within the tag-along posts you both where in. Don’t hold me to a standard you don’t even hold to yourself by claiming I need to cite every person on here and comment to them just because I singled you out.

              Lastly, you weren’t attacked. You were asked to support your comments on an intellectual level. It’s simple.

          • John Anderson says:

            Erin the problem with the post is that it assumes one standard of beauty. Do you even know what a “thick” girl is? I’d define thick as between 110 and 120% of her BMI, probably a size 8 or 9. I prefer the thin look, but I know four guys, all tem years younger than I, who like them thick. Beauty magazines may not have bought into this trend, but a sizeable number of younger guys have.

            I have a friend who could talk his way into any woman’s bed. His girlfriends were gorgeous. He married the one woman who actually asked him out and paid for the date. She’s not very pretty, but she’s cool as heck. I only know one guy who married a “babe”. Unfortunately, their marriage didn’t survive her affair.

            My criticism of Hugo’s writing would be don’t start out wanting to write a “hit piece” on men. Look at what is actually out there. Not everyone will have the same idea of what is beautiful and that view can shift over time. I think Hugo picked a small segment of men and projected that onto all men.

    • John Anderson says:

      “Yes, I want a hot girlfriend/wife. Interestingly, my hot is very different than my friends’ hot”

      That is precisely what I was thinking. I’m picking a girlfriend that I think is beautiful, not someone my friends think is I’ve also noticed that when I find a woman who is kind, intelligent and outgoing, I become physically attracted to her even if the attraction was not there initially. A female friend told me that when you care about someone, you don’t see them the same way.

  7. Spin hamster spin.

    Your premise that men date attractive women to impress other men is laughable – as is the claim that they care about fashion. If men cared about fashion, then why is it that no amount of money spent on clothes will make a n old or fat woman attractive to men?

    Lets recap the obvious that everyone knows:

    What we call ‘attractiveness’ in women is a correlate with fertility. Young, fertile looking women are attractive. Curves – like large breasts, narrow waist and wide hips signal sexual maturity and fertility. Nice hair and skin is a signal of health.

    Most men are not attracted to women over 40, because they are past fertility. And men who are honest with themselves, of any age find younger women attractive. The most attractive women – to all straight men – are in their early 20s. This is borne out again and again in studies, in porn viewing habits, in the marketability of female movie stars etc.

    That men like curves is clear from the type of women who show up in porn – all of them curvy. Traditional fashion model body types are almost non existent in porn. And curvy does not mean fat. Marilyn Monroe was curvy – and tiny. Today she would be a very hot and curvy size 0.

    Middle age men prefer the same women all men prefer – women in their 20s. It has nothing to do with impressing other men. It is a biological drive to mate with women who can produce children. When any man dates a woman above her 20s it is because he could not attract one younger. All things being equal any man would prefer younger. Save your denials – they ring hollow.

    Women know this. The message comes in from every channel. When they were lean and young the attention comes in from men of every age. As they get past 30 the interest starts to drop off until for most women- by age 40 they get zero interest from men with any options. Same goes for fat women.

    MILFs – save your stories about how at age 40 you’re still attracting young men. You do know what “MILF” is an acronym for, right? That last “F” doesn’t stand for “Marriage” or even “Relationship”.

    A young guy may bed a MILK for fun – but he won’t stay with you – and unless you are Demi Moore – no younger man will marry you.

    Young men go after “MILFs” because they know it is easy sex. Why feminists have latched on to such a
    crude pejorative term is a mystery.

    I miss the old “mod down” system.

    • The most attractive women – to all straight men – are in their early 20s.
      I’d change that to “most” rather than “all” but that’s a minor nitpick.

      When any man dates a woman above her 20s it is because he could not attract one younger. All things being equal any man would prefer younger. Save your denials – they ring hollow.
      Hold up. I think you may be leaping a bit here to apply this to all men that date women past their 20s.

      And as a man that actually has a preference for women that could be called MILFs (I hate that damn term, can’t we just call them older/old women?) I think you might be leaping a bit more with the implication that guys for for older/old women for easy sex. Personally I don’t think its a matter of easy sex but rather a matter of it now being socially acceptable, as in hip and trendy, to be into older/old women. One big difference to look at is the treatment of men express sexual attraction to women that look like Stacy Dash and Demi Moore at their age versus men who express sexual attraction to women that are as old and older than Dash and Moore but “don’t look like them” (like say Pam Grier and Judith Light). Not a sure fire indicator mind you.

    • Linguist,

      I have always avoided men like you. Frankly, your theories make you a less desireable partner. Hope you enjoy your solitary retirement.

    • So what would you tell a woman who’s out of her 20’s? That she’s genetically screwed? That she should just accept that no one finds her attractive?

      The biological arguments are just completely unfounded. There are no studies that can prove that men are biologically attracted to a certain women. There are evolutionary theories, but those are scientifically impossible to prove. Correlation doesn’t prove causation. The attraction to younger women could be caused by any number of things, including the social factors that Hugo is attempting to convey. No one would suggest that because rich guys tend to buy nice cars, that they are genetically predisposed to expensive car purchases. Blaming everything on biology allows people like you to dismiss all of the nuance and say offensive things without feeling like a jerk.

      • “So what would you tell a woman who’s out of her 20′s? That she’s genetically screwed? That she should just accept that no one finds her attractive? ”

        I would say, hard beans, now you know what it feels like to have 0 value on the meat market. Considering how feminists have screamed their head off about the right to preference I think a saying in my native language is very appropriate. Be wary, the one’s you kick in the face on you way up are the same ones that catch you when you fall.

        • Sure, people have a right to chose. But, that doesn’t mean that shallow choices have to be supported. there’s a pretty big gap between what people have the right to do and what is most kind, most humane, most valuable, and least shallow. If you’re bitter about your lack of human connection, why don’t you try sympathizing with people rather than pushing them away?

        • Actually, that proverb (as I’ve heard it) is a little different the way I have heard it.
          It goes: be careful who’s ass you kick on the way up. You may have to kiss it on the way down.

          That was always told in the context of workplace political back-stabbing. But it can apply equally for dating.
          Part A)
          In their 20’s women go for jocks and jerks because they titillate them. The boring hard-working poindexters get passed over.
          Part B) when the same women hit their 40’s after riding jock/jerk c**k most of the fertile years (and the jocks become Al Bundies longing for their glory years as the star school QB) and will now deign to date the boring poindexters, those same poindexters have an extensive portfolios and networth. The poindexter now runs from the yesteryear prom queens to date a whole generation lower (early 20’s).

          Feminists don’t have a problem with Part A, they only have a problem with Part B. How convenient for them.
          The message Lindsey isn’t that women in their 40’s are screwed: it’s that they should have chosen the respectul, hard-working, quality guy in their youth. But instead (not all, but a significant portion of women) squandered their youth on low-quality guys to be titillated.
          That being the case, they have nothing to say about men in their 40’s trading in their wealth to date much younger women. Why? Because just as men make decisions with their little head, women DO make decisions with their organ that rhymes with flit.

          In short: don’t hate the player, hate the game.

          Things will only get much worse if legal prostitution spreads to other states, and much much worse when birth control pills for men become available.

          • Yup. Then poindexter finds out his lovely little sweety-pie is screwing every jock in town on the sly and using him to pay for the breast implants. So the world turns. One would think at some point all you poindexters would figure out just how pathetic you actually are and just deal. Oh well, lots of plastic surgeons are paying alimony on your dime. C’est le guerre.

            • lol
              Did I strike a nerve suzy?

            • No, she said the truth. No younger girl will get turned on by these old guys. They can even have sex with them (gross), but then will cheat on them with any young hot guy they can find. Just common sense.
              In fact, I have seen cases where the girls were taking te old man’s money and using it with their side young hot guys. That was hilarious.

    • Marilyn Monroe would not be a size 0. I heard that she was actually a size 10.

    • Traci C says:

      I really hope you make a ton of money – because that’s the only way my pert, young 24 year old body would get into your bed. If you don’t make a ton of money (or the moment you stop making a ton of money), you are a failure in life and instantly less attractive to me. It goes both way, sweetie! :)

      • Justa Soares says:

        Sure, and don’t forget to keep straying with young, hot and fit dudes.. not that I have to remind you of that. ;)
        He wants a baby with you, using his own worthless 35y/o+ male sperm? Yeeeeeek… just get one of your side dudes to get you pregnant instead so you will have a healthy baby. Or tell him you want to do that using artificial ways, just “to be sure you will get pregnant as fast as possible” because hey, you *love him sooo much* you can’t wait to have a baby of an old dude! And then get some of his money and pay the doctor to use the sperm of a tall, young and healthy male of your preference from the sperm bank. Job done. ;)

    • Justa Soares says:

      “Curves – like large breasts, narrow waist and wide hips signal sexual maturity and fertility.”

      Le absurdity. Large breasts mean more pregnancy than fertility. Women can have it all and be infertile; nature is not that dumb.
      Men, males in general, are attracted to the woman’s smell. When she is sexually mature (that is what ACTUALLY attracts males in all nature) she has a smell that attracted men. Even today men can still sense that smell. They don’t have to be that young, though – in nature females are still wanted and desired as long as they can procreate, and usually they go for the fittest and younger males, as their sperm is the most valuable.
      It is actually females that look for physical clues to choose males. Young, strong and fit males are the most desirable. The most colorful and “proud” in birds. That is because they have the best gens, and only the males with the best gens should procreate by nature’s logic – while all females should procreate, as no female is disposable, not as long as she is still able to procreate. That is the reason males are much loose and do not choose. Even the weakest females will still be able to attract the most powerful males. Males can fertilize everyday, females can be fertilized for a short period of time, sometimes only once or twice a year… so their egg should never be wasted. That is the reason females have a great pool of males to choose from, they will obviously choose the strongest, youngest (but sexually mature/adult) and fittest to copulate FIRST… and because this male can still be infertile somehow, most females of most species usually accept some or many other males after the first chosen one (who still have the greatest probability of being the father of the offspring) to copulate with as well, so that certain that she will not waste her egg. That is the reason so many species have females practicing “orgies”, monogamous females cheating on their male mates all the time (as they male got older his sperm is not valuable anymore but he can still be there to help “raise” the offspring, so they cheat with younger males)… even species where males live with multiple females, the females are always out “cheating” – and the males are always suspicious.

      “Most men are not attracted to women over 40, because they are past fertility. And men who are honest with themselves, of any age find younger women attractive. The most attractive women – to all straight men – are in their early 20s.”
      That is the thing. Most women are also not attracted to men over 40, if you take only looks into consideration, and that is not really because of their lack of good gens (men over 35 already have trashy sperm that should NEVER be used to procreate); that is just because of the looks. By the way, many women can still get pregnant way over their 40, the same goes for men over 40 being able to get a woman pregnant (they shouldn’t, as their sperm is trashy and can bring many genetic problems; while the female egg is still relatively strong enough, not the best, but still not as trashy as the sperm of a man of the same age).
      The “20’s” thing is another absurdity, though. That is much North American-ish… in my Country (I could say continent), almost half of the women men drool over are over their 30’s. We are not as screwed-up as you guys.
      Also, again, males have NO drive to mate with females who an produce children; in nature males are mating with other males and objects all the time. Older and already infertile females still get to attract males and strong, young and fit ones at that… because males are still attracted to any sexual approach, and infertile females still will approach males to copulate.

      Your biologt classes were weak as fuck, uh?

  8. This is a pretty interesting comparison to Tom Matlack’s recent, “Are Women Addicted to Beauty?” article. The difference being Tom seems to recognize there are two forces at work (one force saying men want a specific woman to the exclusion of other women and the other saying men just want sex with women) while Hugo just decides that there is only one force at work.

  9. Hugo’s assertions are spot on and every woman knows it. Not all men are shallow and seek to claim their trophy woman, but there are too many who do. Walk down the streets of New York and see what happens. How many men, who are with another woman, will leave her to pursue the “hot” model? How many men avoid the “grenade” (I hate that term) in favor of the beauty in her party? Sorry guys, I’m with Hugo on this one – having witnessed and experienced what he’s describing. Women know it’s not enough to be a good person to attract the majority of men. We have to be the prize that so many can brag about in front of their friends. Models, beauty queens and cheerleaders are the target group. How many guys trade in their loyal partners in favor of the “new” model? The cliches exist for a reason – there is some truth in them. The question is, will they be acknowledged and dealt with by good men? To be fair, there are women who behave in the same manner. The difference being, women will call the witch out on her behavior – publically.

    • The cliche about men leaving their wives for younger women is as tired as it is wrong. Women initiate 70% of the divorces. There used to be, in my parents time, a respect for marriage that protected women. Men would marry young women in their prime, and only a cad would leave them after their had faithfully stood by then and bore their children.

      But those days are gone. Today both men and women are exposed to the laws of the jungle that favor successful dominant men and young attractive women.

      • Women initiate most divorces because men won’t even when both parties know the marriage is over. You just said yourself that no man could possibly be attracted to a woman over 40, not even his own wife apparently, and if they stick around its only out of “respect” for marriage. So if that’s true (not that I believe it is) why would a woman want to stay with a man who feels that way about her? Sounds better to be single.

        • Yeah, itiating a divorce and causing one are two different things. I’ve never come across any data that explains the reasons that the women file, although I’m sure “my husband has a younger girlfriend” is definitely in the mix to some degree.

          • I think its the other way around. Women want divorces 90% of the time. They initiate 70% of all divorces and the other 20% is men who initiate because they know their wife wants out.

          • Lindsey says:
            Yeah, itiating a divorce and causing one are two different things. I’ve never come across any data that explains the reasons that the women file
            ======
            Prepare to be enlightened.
            Per this 46,000 divorce 4-state study, it appears women initiate divorce 66% more often than men.
            The reasons why seem to be different variations on her being bored.
            Also, many women state they initiated the divorce because they knew they would get child custody.

            ht tp://www.livestrong.com/article/146100-why-do-women-initiate-divorce/

        • Exactly. Women may initiate the divorce but it’s often because the man is cheating with a younger woman, but thinks he’s being a “good guy” by not deserting his family.

      • What you perceive to be a bygone “respect” for marriage kept women from divorcing abusive husbands and having greater autonomy generally. Women didn’t divorce as much in large part because laws were typically much more restrictive. That’s hardly something to idealize.

        • Yeah, they just keep improving marriage. That is why fewer and fewer people get married.

        • Wrong Maxwell:
          Before no-fault divorce, divorce laws were fair and equitable and gender-blind. It was ruled by contractual obligation laws.
          In essence it broke down like this:
          A spouse had to sue for divorce.
          If the suing spouse had grounds (i.e. the other spouse had done one of the four A’s: abuse, abandonment, addiction, adultery) then the suing spouse got the lions share of assets, the house and custody.
          If the suing spouse had no grounds, then he/she was seen to be abrogating (cutting short) the marriage contract.

          In essence it allowed a truly wronged spouse to get the lions share of assets and custody and was gender blind. The difference is that it did not allow BORED OR CHEATING wives to divorce and keep custody and the assets.

          Now with no-fault divorce, a cheating wife can actually divorce and still get custody and the lions share of the assets (thanks to “best interests of the child” and “tender years” and other doctrines enshrined by ruthless lawyers and feminists).

          Modern divorce laws incentivize women to get divorced–even when she is the cause of the marital conflict.
          It’s like driving drunk, hitting a school bus (injuring or killing several or all of the kids) and suing THE INJURED and winning!

          Family courts are a breeding ground for incredibly bigoted and misandric jokes of laws.
          Mothers get sole custody 80% and shared 14%. Fathers get sole custody 6% and shared 14%

          80% versus 6%. Can it really be possible that mothers are the better parent THIRTEEN TIMES AS OFTEN?

      • Justa Soares says:

        Most women could care less about “dominant successful men”… unless that man looks like Ian Somerhalder or is good looking enough (we are much more forgiving than men, do not worry, and we even settle for someone that is out of our league – less) and has a heart of gold. :P

        Thanks for admitting men could care less about a woman’s faithfulness, loyalty and actual love and only care about women’s looks. Why would you believe that is something that men of today should not care about anymore is beyond me, but I guess men never actually cared about it anyway… that was just taken for granted. Women still need to hear about it from men over and over again to finally wake-up and see men for the selfish, entitled beings they are… and just disregard them.

    • The Wet One says:

      “The difference being, women will call the witch out on her behavior – publically.” What exactly does that look like? I’m curious.

      Also, does that make you a better person somehow? If so, how? I don’t really understand.

      Thanks!

    • I’m sorry, what? Women publicly call out “witches” who leave their husbands? Do you have any examples of this, because I’m a little confused as to what you mean having never personally witnessed this phenomenon.

      And let’s keep in mind, men target different women depending on what their end goal is. If they’re single and they want to get laid, maybe they are targeting the cheerleaders, beauty queens, etc. And to that I say so what?? Most of the women in my single days went for tall, dark and handsome. That sucked because I’m none of those, but oh well. That’s life.

      But when it came time to settle down, most men I know went after attractive women who are intelligent, kind and challenging. Having said that (and being happily married to a HOT woman who is also smart, compassionate and loyal), OF COURSE WE STILL LOOK AT YOUNGER WOMEN! Why wouldn’t we? We’re not dead. We didn’t go blind when the wedding ring went on. I will always be attracted to beautiful, young women no matter how old I get. I’m not about to feel bad for that. It doesn’t mean I’m any less attracted to my wife, it simply means I still appreciate how a gorgeous young woman looks.

      The female insecurity on this site is staggering.

      • I think that what Melis was saying is that there are more social consequences for women who cheat, rather than men. And I do agree with that. I think that a woman is more likely to see cheating on a partner as an indication of poor character, which would make them less likely to be friends with a person. I’ve definitely heard women say that they’ve backed off a friendship because their friend’s cheating made them respect him/her less or made them uncomfortable. I’ve never heard that from a guy. It probably does happen, maybe just not to the same degree.

        Just because someone has an “end goal” in mind doesn’t give someone the right to devalue someone’s personal traits. Despite what you may think “I just wanted to get laid!” is not a good excuse to objectify someone. Did you ever think that maybe the woman didn’t want to be a “target”?

        First of all, when there are entire discussions about how women over 29 lose their sex appeal to most men, can you really blame women for being insecure? Maybe the ones who are insecure feel they have a reason to be. Also, not wanting your partner to drool over every piece of ass is not insecurity. Finding someone attractive is fine, but the fact that it’s only young women is telling. If you are a mature guy, why can’t you find mature women attractive? Maybe your evaluation of attractiveness is just way too narrow?

        • Lindsey says:
          I think that what Melis was saying is that there are more social consequences for women who cheat, rather than men.
          ========
          Two words:
          Tiger woods

      • We know you will look at other (younger, better looking) women. Just don’t be a dick about it.

        • The Wet One says:

          I’d prefer to hear Melis reply myself so we know what she (I assume it’s a she) is saying.

        • Jill: “We know you will look at other (younger, better looking) women. Just don’t be a dick about it.”

          Exactly. No one would care about someone checking out an attractive person if attractiveness didn’t hold such WEIGHT. I mean, I think it’s as much fun to look at a hot young guy as the next woman, but that’s all it is – FUN. I’m not seriously thinking of approaching him or having an affair with him just because he’s young and hot. To me it’s just “Oooh, isn’t he cute” and then I move on. There’s nothing wrong with appreciating someone who is good looking – just with using that as the basis for deciding who is worthy of a relationship with you. An awful lot of people seem to stay stuck in adolescent fantasies – that is, thinking they are *entitled* to making their teenage fantasies come true as opposed to just letting them stay harmless fantasies as they should.

          • I couldn’t agree more. It’s the weight that attractiveness hold to men that is threatening, not the attractiveness itself.

          • It’s been proven that looking at attractive women fires the reward part of mens brains.
            I don’t have the link handy, but I remember reading that brain scans revealed that men looking at pictures of beautiful women had scans very similar to a heroine addict getting a fix.

            I think linguist states it precisely right:
            At one time society socialized men and women to marry young when both sexes had their hormones in over-drive (and also this meant more age-similar marriages).
            The culture and divorce laws HEAVILY shunned men who divorced. Even very rich and powerful men who had divorced paid heavy consequences for it. In the early 20th century, men who had divorced couldn’t even run for office.
            He was seen to be a disloyal social pariah for stepping out on his wife and children.

            The dissolution of the social contract has turned the dating market into a shark tank.
            But to pretend that there are not also female sharks who benefit from this is unrealistic and one-sided.
            Men are simply obeying the rules that feminists and lawyers setup when they destroyed at-fault divorce laws.

            The chickens have come home to roost.
            To have a culture in which male loyalty would be punished for 40 years and not expect that men would eventually adapt is unrealistic and imbecilic.

            Everybody keeps harping on immature men in their 40’s trying and succeeding to establish relationships w/women in their 20’s are silent about women in their 20’s blowing off docile, respectful hard-working poindexters (in favor of jerks, jocks, bad-boys, and thugs).

            As it stands for men in their 20’s an ex-con has a better chance with (a sizable chunk of) women (who are mostly immature) then a shy guy with a good job and is “on paper” a good catch.
            Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
            If you want real change–then support shared parenting advocates. Shaming male libido won’t fix anything (and it’s only 1side of the coin).

            • Justa Soares says:

              Yes, women only date criminals and men with bad character in their 20’s… and that is a female problem, how? If young females are dating so many bad guys/criminals like that, that is proof we have too many bad and criminal men in our society. As researches show women do not date only a small pool of men, so yeah… why are men so twisted that most will become bad guys and criminal, thugs and jerks? Your logic said that, not me. :)

              “If you want real change–then support shared parenting advocates. Shaming male libido won’t fix anything (and it’s only 1side of the coin).”
              And how will supporting shared parenting “change the game” (older dudes using money to buy the affection and sex from younger, prostituting women)? And how that is shaming “male libido”? Oh, please. I would say the same if 40y/o women were acting like that in hordes.

              I still find it horrible that older women also do that and will buy young men’s affection and sex, but they do that so much less than men, as women learn to have that kind of self respect of not buying other people and actually seeing men as human beings… but if men keep doing that, I actually HOPE more women will be doing this more and more over the years, so men will feel the same that we do, as that is the ONLY WAY a men could evr take an issue that does not affect them as much as something important. In fact, it can even turn upside down and women may be one day start earning more tha men, own most of the money and actually demand men to be hot… so many things have turned upside-down in the past, why not this? Do you want women to respond the same way men respond to women when this situation becomes real?

      • That’s cool as long as you keep my bank accounts topped off. Touch any of those babes, though, and you’ll end up lonely and broke in the poor house.

      • Justa Soares says:

        “The female insecurity on this site is staggering.”

        Women are judged mostly by their looks. Most men believe a woman’s looks is their most important or only attribute. Women pass their 40 are just told they are worthless as human beings now because hey, if men cannot find you attractive what is your worth as a woman?
        Women are attacked all the time, mostly by men (and when attacked by women it does never hold the same power, for obvious reasons of gender, same social groups, etc.), for just not fitting the beauty standard, and boys/men will keep making fun and humiliating women they don’t believe are “hot” – many will even act as if women who are not hot for them are just not worth living. Yes, we experience this since childhood.
        And you still act as if this insecurity is just an annoyance for you poor male commodity? To hell with that, man.

    • Melis, I agree that Hugo’s assertions are spot-on. I have heard so many men say that their wives or gifrlfriends are “arm candy” that they want to impress their male friends with.

      • The Wet One says:

        The fact that they say this doesn’t necessarily equate to that being the main reason they’re with them. I am reasonably sure that they would be with the “arm candy” even if no other men were around. Perhaps especially if there were no other men around because then they would have the pick of all the women. Of course, the term eye candy wouldn’t make any sense (except if there were lots of lesbians who found the same woman attractive, but wouldn’t the fact that there were lots of lesbians make up for the one who went with the man? Ummm… What the heck did I just say?!?!!?!? Lol!)

        • Yes, this is another common line that I hear from men: “Sure, my wife/girlfriend is hot, but that’s not the reason I’m with her. She could be the hottest woman on earth but I wouldn’t be in love with her if she wasn’t a great person…” yada yada.

          OK, now what if she was the same great person but not so hot? Would you still be with her? Would you even have noticed her? That’s the question most guys do not want to answer.

          • LF Says:
            Yes, this is another common line that I hear from men: “Sure, my wife/girlfriend is hot, but that’s not the reason I’m with her. She could be the hottest woman on earth but I wouldn’t be in love with her if she wasn’t a great person…” yada yada.

            OK, now what if she was the same great person but not so hot?
            ============
            I’ve often thought the same thing about women married to men who make $100k or more.
            I wonder if they would stay with those men if they were suddenly poor.

            You never hear about a plumber, social worker, or laid-off man being a “good catch” among men when women talk.
            File this under pot calling the kettle black.

            • ht tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiSKxw2B2PU&feature=related
              Start watching at the 30second mark.
              ht tp://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3318366/Wealth-is-key-for-marriage-study-claims.h tml

              Women place a premium on a mate’s wealth and status.
              Surely, women could find good personality traits among low-earners, but (a generous portion of women) exclude even begin looking at those men for important traits.
              They only are willing to look at men who are upper middle class or higher.
              So, please don’t act like men have a monopoly on dehumanizing people.

            • Justa Soares says:

              “I’ve often thought the same thing about women married to men who make $100k or more.
              I wonder if they would stay with those men if they were suddenly poor.
              You never hear about a plumber, social worker, or laid-off man being a “good catch” among men when women talk.”

              Most women would. Most women even stay with their husbands while they are extremely sick or cancerous in the hospital… men leave their women in this situation much, much more.
              That is true about the jobs, though. That is difficult to hear about a woman praising her husband for having a “lower” job… and that is a societal problem. Most people see these jobs as less. But the women will still talk about these men’s artistic ability, their kindness, their loyalty and romantic ways.

    • Pure projection. It’s women who value men as trophies.
      Men love beautiful women, for the same reason that women prefer jerks/confident suave guys: titillation.

      Men don’t date beautiful women for approval from other men (if that is so how do you explain so many male politicians dating young sexy women on the side and keeping it secret FROM EVERYBODY for many years?).

      Men date beautiful women because it activates the reward center of our brain, just as women date extroverted confident men (or sometimes even jerks or even cruel lady killers if need be, over shy guys) for titillation.

      Women (not all, but on balance) MARRY trophy husbands who they passed up in their earlier years as not worth their time. It’s not that these women don’t still pine away for the lady killers, it’s that their youth is gone and they can no longer attract these same caliber of men.

      Men think w/their little heads and women think w/their organ that rhymes with flit.
      Men don’t have a monopoly on immaturity.

      • Justa Soares says:

        “Men date beautiful women because it activates the reward center of our brain, just as women date extroverted confident men (or sometimes even jerks or even cruel lady killers if need be, over shy guys) for titillation.”

        As if men didn’t date cruel women who destroy their families, abuse them and their kids for “titilation”. As if women didn’t find it rewaring, in a psychological and emotional way, to ride the cock of a hot, young and fit male.

        Women marrying men only for their physical attributes or for the sex is much rarer than men doing it, though, and that’s a fact.

  10. Let’s not forget that “I think a woman can look great in jeans and a t-shirt without any make-up.” is often code for “I want a woman that looks flawlessly sexy from the second she wakes until the second she sleeps without an effort whatsoever.”

    • True story.

      The fact is that most men know so little about clothes/makeup that they can’t even tell how much effort was put into looking a certain way. A guy might look at someone and think that she’s not wearing makeup when she’s actually wearing quite a bit. They don’t like sloppy or obvious makeup is what they mean.

      Expecting someone to effortlessly match a social ideal is so unrealistic. It’s like if a woman wants a beefcake who doesn’t go to the gym, doesn’t wax his body, doesn’t use any products, and eats whatever he wants. It’s just not going to happen.

      Fitting some sort of ideal is pressure enough. Fitting it without effort is just overkill.

    • Well said and spot on,Keyath.

  11. The Wet One says:

    Hugo is right. I’ll never forget the time I went to a football game with two gorgeous young things (one of whom I asked on a date and she asked if her friend could come along. Lucky me, the friend was as hot as the girl I asked out). So many compliments from men at the game on having two gorgeous women with me. And the looks and thumbs up I got… Sigh, let’s just say it was an ego booster for sure. Sadly, only got one date, but I was still learning how to play the game. I had only just developed the nerve to ask out hot women and I was still learning how to navigate these treacherous waters.

    And to this day, with my extraordinarily hot significant other, I still enjoy the feeling of “Yeah, I’m the king buddy” when I see other men checking her out. Love it!

    It’s not the reason that I love her (I’ve had the hot crazy, jealous or otherwise messed up girlfriend), but there’s no denying that I like the status it gives me. Flame away, but just remember, I got mine and Yes, my girlfriend is hot like that! Boo yaa!!! :-D

    • Gorgeous young things? Women are not things.

    • ARe you hot enough so she can feel the go boost when walking arounf with you as well? It seems men are so into their women’s looks that they forget women are not blind. You know, if she is hot I believe she puts a lot of effort into her looks as well. Do you do the same? Or is just another regular guy that could care less to appear attractive to your girl?

  12. I love how you try to turn “men don’t care about what women are wearing” into “men don’t care about looks.” Men DO care about looks, we ALL admit we do. We DON’T care about what an attractive woman is wearing, not really. If you’re hot, you are hot whether you are wearing a t-shirt and jeans, or a $5,000 evening gown, with Jimmy Choos. If you are not hot, then you need to do what you can to make yourself more attractive, which can be done through clothes.

    • I was wondering if anyone was going to point that out. Hugo has blurred the lines between “caring about fashion” and “caring about looks.”

      Men care a great deal about how a woman looks; we do indeed want youth, health, and beauty in our mates. What she’s wearing? Well, the better it shows off her own body, the more we like it… and that’s about it. Color, cloth, collar, sleeve length? Don’t care. The number of buttons doesn’t matter unless we’re counting how many are undone.

      • “Men care a great deal about how a woman looks; we do indeed want youth, health, and beauty in our mates. What she’s wearing? Well, the better it shows off her own body, the more we like it… and that’s about it.”
        The same goes for women, we also care a great deal. The problem is, mst men want to believe we don’t lie to themselves and just WON’T be attractive for women. And then complain women do not ask guys out…

  13. Tom Matlack says:

    Van Morrison? Really? Man that hurts. My favorite singer of all time. But then I have seen in him concert where he yelled at the audience and made clear he would rather be any other place on the planet.

    I don’t completely buy your argument about female beauty being about status to guys. I also got rightly reprimanded over on my column about the difference between beauty and fashion. Fashion is an art form that pretty much only women obsess over. Female bodies (“beauty”) is something men spend way too much time obsessing over, witness our use of porn et al.

    My wife is indeed beautiful in a way some might say is culturally supported. I am proud to be with her when we go out. But I think that’s because I love her. More than that I am in love with her and still after 10 years of marriage attracted to her in a way that makes all those fights worthwhile. I don’t think it has much to do with what anyone else thinks. It has to do with what I think when we get into bed together.

    But that is just me.

    • Well, Tom, do you agree with some of his argument about female beauty being about status to guys? Hugo didn’t say that status among other men was the only component of male sexuality. He just said it’s part of the whole package. Like it or not, Hugo has a valid point.

      Speaking of beauty issues, you need to have a column about male standards of grooming. Sorry, but most men nowadays have abused the casual dress codes. If guys want to get dates, they need to dress well and stay in good shape. And if they want women to respond to their online dating profiles, they need to go to a good professional photographer and look their best.

      The men in Mad Men were male chauvinistic, but at least, they dressed well. Even when they were casual, they didn’t look sloppy.

    • Tom, the late, great Joanne Woodward said that she didn’t love Paul Newman because he was so handsome. She said she loved him because he made her laugh.

      Hah! Joanne, if Paul were ugly, would you still love him? Come on, be honest.

      I don’t believe it when people say, “My spouse is good looking but that’s not why I love him/’her.”

      • Actually, I DO kind of believe that statement.
        Here’s my point: she may REALLY have fallen in love with him because of his sense of humor.

        But she most likely only agreed to date him because of his looks.

        To my mind many women lose out by “screening” potential dates for income, the same way many men probably lose out by “screening” women based on looks. Many men may have missed their soulmates due to their unwillingness to date a plain jane. Many woman may have missed their soulmates by dating only white collar high earning professionals.

        I believe her statement that she fell in love with PN based on humor, but I am sure she only approached (or let approach her) those men she found attractive.

        • Justa Soares says:

          The difference is most men screen women based on looks, and they expect the hottest. While most women could care less about a man’s income, they just want you to not be a lazy ass.

  14. Keythah- You nailed. They claim they want a natural beauty, but what is natural about shaved armpits?
    It’s all relative isn’t it? 170+ lb woman was the ideal for many hundreds of years. Now, OMG, she’s a fatty.
    And plus, how do you know if you’ve won if there isn’t a hierarchy?

    • That is a fantasy.

      For women the same thin curvy body has been desirable throughout all of history.It is reflected in art of ancient Egypt, to Greek and Roman art (e.g. Venus de Milo), to early renaissance (e.g. Botecelli’s birth of venus), through to the present day. Rubens is often used to justify some era where fat women were desirable. Rubens is an outlier, And his women are not as fat as most imagine:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rubens_Painting_Adam_Eve.jpg

      Not to worry, the ideal body for men has been the same through history also – lean and muscular – represented perfectly by Michaelangelo’s David.

      • Actually, the ideal female body in the paintings you speak of is a far cry from what the ideal female body is considered today. The women back then, didn’t only have more curves, but they were more realistic. Take a look at the very painting you mentioned, Botecelli’s Birth of Venus and Venus De Milo, you’ll see her body is a far cry from what we see today in porn and men’s magazines. So yes, the ideas about beauty has changed drastically for women.

        Linguists, I am curious though, what do you hope to accomplish in your previous posts on this subject ? What do you want women to take away from what you are saying? that we are pretty much all worthless from the day we are born? And that after the age of 25 we should all be shot like dogs? What do you hope to accomplish by saying the things you are about women?

        • If he thinks that it’s probably out of resentment cause no woman would give a damn about him, maybe just after his money or whatever.

        • The sexual market place is cruel and unforgiving. Everyone – men and women – wants to be with someone who is in the top 10% of desirability.

          For women that means tall, successful men. All men know this. That is why many men exaggerate their height and hint a professional/financial success on dating web sites. Women will only chose sperm at sperm banks from men 6 feet or over. Poor or short men may not like this – but that is just too bad.

          And the same goes for women with age and weight. Dating profiles for women over age 40 or overweight get a lot less interest. Young women in their 20’s with good figures get hit on all day long. Life isn’t fair.

          There used to be some rules in the past that encouraged young women to marry young right in the peak of when they are getting interest from every man. And men were discouraged from divorcing their wives as they got older.

          We’ve removed all those rules. The result is an unregulated marketplace that favors the top most desirable people of either sex.

          The result is that a few men – tall men with good jobs, athletes etc. – are sleeping with a lof of young women – who they have no intention of marrying. These women are all competing with each other for that small group of men. The majority end up aging out of the marriage market – and settling for a lot less then they would have had to in their 20s – because the top 10% of men they were going after wasted their time. And of course men who are not in this top 10% are frustrated that all the women are after the same few guys who treat them badly.

          The current situation is particularly bad for women. Young women in their 20s don’t feel this – but by middle 30’s, women start to see how the system hurt them – as many of them find themselves alone and unmarried, settling for FWB type relationships.

          I’m sure many women will feel a shock of recognition of situations like:

          1. having handsome successful boyfriends who slept with you for 3 months and then left you for no good reason,
          2. having a ton of boyfriends in your 20’s and early 30’s but never finding ‘the one’ and now starting to worry as options start to dry up,
          3. that nerdy guy in college that you would never consider but now that he is established, responsible and has a good job looks pretty good – and he is now married to a woman younger than you.
          4. In your 20s you were demanding and entitled, but today you’re much more easygoing.

          Many men get into their mid 30s and – and if they are reasonably successful and are at least average
          looking – they start to see a reversal in the dating market. Where they used to struggle to get attention, they suddenly have women they used to lust after calling them. You meet your unmarried female peers, living in a little apartment, with some marginal job they don’t really like, and you get a sense of desperation from them – like they are hoping you will save them.

          • The Wet One says:

            Well, as the guy in Linguists post above, I can certainly say that my prospects turned around when I got older. Except for all his belittling stuff about women, I’d say that his comments they accord to the average dude with a good job who wasn’t in the top 10% of males, certainly was correct.

            Life did get better in the sex and relationship department. Thank god for that!

          • You didn’t answer my question Linguist. I said:

            Linguists, I am curious though, what do you hope to accomplish in your previous posts on this subject ? What do you want women to take away from what you are saying? What do you hope to accomplish by saying the things you are about women?

            Wet One, my prospects also got better with age. Emotional maturity accounts for a good chunk of this. Having the ability to pick better partners after knowing more about yourself. Linguists lives in a world where women are living in holes with their cats and men are strutting around like peacocks. I don’t know this world. In the world I live in, I see successes and failures in both men and women. Infact, men living with their parents in their basement isn’t a stereotype for a reason.

            • I post for my own amusement. I don’t expect that my post will change the minds of women who played the field in their 20’s and are now committed to a lifestyle of short term boyfriends. Now you have to rationalize that “it only get’s better from here” and “I’m still desirable because I attract a steady string of short term relationships”.

              It might help young, inexperienced men who might read posts like Hugo’s and buy into his byzantine feminist rationalizations. I’m pretty sure what I’ve been writing resonates with the experiences of most men.

              Hugo is like an encyclopedia of feminist rationatizations: always undercutting traditional masculinity (Hugo: despite what feminists say, women demand it of the men they date) , defending sluttiness (sorry – men may sleep with loose women, but they never marry them), defending cuckholding etc.

              The funny thing is, that Hugo says one thing – but as many posters have pointed out – he lives his life according to the common sense rules of the real sexual dynamics between men and women. For example his long history of leveraging his meager social proof as a professor at a no name college to bed, and then dump, a long string of female students. (I’m sure he feels more pride than shame at reading this).

              I think it is sad and funny when he gives us an anecdote about having once “dated” a fat woman, and then not taking her to meet his parents, and probably dumping her shortly thereafter. It is especially ironic that he uses this story as a way of giving feminists his bona-fides that he isn’t “lookist”.

              But then arrogance and narcissism are attractive to women.

              A bunch of female posters argue against me, and yet their posts betray how in reality they agree with me. For example in an attempt to shame me I’m asked if I’m a 6’4” banker. Lol. (subtext: that is what is desirable in men – I agree!)

              Or just now you bring up the stereotype of the man who lives in mom’s basement. That stereotype lives not because it is common but because that is the stereotype of the type of man who repels women – e.g. low status, dominated by his mother. Note that the stereotype is not “dad’s basement”.

            • I think you post because of residual bitterness toward women Linguist. Lets spark a campfire and invite my girlfriends and we could tell you some good stories about our relationships with men. None all them are massive rejection of young men while we point and laugh. Sure, women do some rejecting. We don’t date every guy that asks. But we get rejected too. Your inability to understand that women experience the ups and downs of dating equates to your inability to see women as human beings.

              Perhaps if I was a perfect 10, I wouldn’t get rejected. Perhaps that’s where your real bitterness comes from. Not from regular girls out there in the dating world but maybe what *you* care about are the 10s that weren’t interested in you. Lots of regular normal girls out there have their war stories. Young men aren’t exactly looking to settle down most of the time in this hook-up culture any more then young women might be looking for.

              When women ask you sarcastically if you are a 6’4 banker it’s because you are pretty much completely decimating the female population. It’s no different then when men or women make references to Super Models. We all culturally know these two types of people are attractive for certain reasons. But that doesn’t mean men or women don’t find other people very attractive. Or that women are sitting around holding out for 6’4 Bankers. I’ve dated a wide range of men. Over weight, short, bald, tall, athletic. Men that worked in retail and men that owed their own business. And these things never really had much to do with what a man had to offer to me as an individual person. Some of the best men I’ve been with probably wouldn’t have been attractive to the majority of society. But you don’t want to hear that. You want to fester in the idea that women aren’t human beings with experiences in the dating world that are both good and bad. Because if you did that, it would require that you actually think about women in terms of being your equals instead of being “something” that you can put down.

              By the way, the stereotype about a man living in the basement of his childhood home runs from mom’s basement to parent’s basement. There is also more of a stereotype about “Momma’s Boy” vs. ever hearing “Daddy’s Boy”. It’s historically always been more acceptable to mock men through their relationships with women then their relationships with other men. Even going so far as treating feminine traits as not only the opposite to masculinity, but cultural negatives. Such as when men attack other men by calling him a P*ssy or a “woman”. As if being a woman is negative already.

          • I never had a ton of boyfriends. I’ve never been attracted to arrogance and narcissism. I would gladly have dated a nerdy guy. And I don’t give a crap if a guy is athletic so long as he takes reasonable care of himself (which I do also). But even the nerdy guys often think they’re entitled to some supermodel! I have loads of male friends (not FWB’s because I don’t do that), own a home and have my own career, and would also have been perfectly willing to (and did at times) date a guy who didn’t make much money. Still would.

            All I really wanted in a husband was someone who treated me with respect, someone who wants real intimacy, and with whom I have things in common and shared values – a true life partnership. I feel that being single is preferable to marrying someone without those things. So I’ve stayed single. I’m not desperate – as mentioned I take care of myself just fine and am blessed with a lot of good friends. But that doesn’t mean I’m not profoundly saddened by the superficiality of the dating game, and how many people will base a major decision like who they will marry, on such a shaky foundation. It’s even sadder that even people who are pretty enlightened in other ways still fail to understand this and/or make no apologies for it.

          • @Linguist: LMAO! How can so many straight males be so silly!
            You are mostly saying older men marry younger women only. Younger women only date around older guys. That is just illogical. Most women want only 10%… pfff. And no, you are wrong, most women could care less about your money, they make their own.

            “And the same goes for women with age and weight.” – Actually, the same goes for both women and men. Most women want thin (but toned) and young guys. Maybe not necessarily younger, but definitely not that much older.

            Wake up. Your views are illogical, flawed and most of all, obsessed. You are also a sexist who condones actions of misogyny. A very ignorant person, that I feel sad still exists in this world.
            “Linguists lives in a world where women are living in holes with their cats and men are strutting around like peacocks. I don’t know this world. In the world I live in, I see successes and failures in both men and women.”

        • Justa Soares says:

          John D and Lisguist are the same dude. Or at least as screwed up as one another.

      • You’re right Lingquist.
        As an example the venus de milo certainly didn’t look like a 170lb woman.
        Even if you add in the missing arms.

  15. The Wet One says:

    Thinking on this further and the whole “trophy wife” comment above, I think in a certain economic millieu where there is a whole lot of competition and status demonstrations (I’m thinking law offices for one and corporate boardrooms for another), men may actually want a beautiful woman for status more than anything else (maybe amongst pro sports players too as they’re pretty competitive). Amongst your average guys though who’s as powerless and as downtrodden as the next schlub, not so much. They don’t compete amongst each other and status seek to such an extent that having a “trophy wife” one ups anyone in their circles so they don’t aspire to it. Also, they can’t really get “trophy wife” material because it’s out of their league.

    However, for the average dude, Hugo is more off the mark than on (notwithstanding my earlier comment about my own significant other above). It really is about how hot she is to the average guy. The fact that other dudes are envious, jealous or whatever is just a bonus, not the goal. Heck even for me, I couldn’t really care less about what other men think of my dear sweet love. However, I do enjoy the fact that they’re envious! HA!

    • The Wet One says:

      “However, I do enjoy the fact that they’re envious! HA!” To clarify, the foregoing means I’d still be with my dear sweet love even if other men didn’t turn their heads. I think my comments will confuse some people or be intentionally confused, so I’m clarifying in advance.

      • THe Wet One, i’ve read your posts in this article and all they proved to me is that Hugo is right. You’ve bragged several times now about your wife or other women in situations where men were envious of you. You find them attractive but you also do use them as status when you brag about them. It doesn’t matter that you keep saying that you don’t do it for status. Your actions of talking about it alone show that you do. It’s not even that you mentioned it once. You’ve mentioned these things several times now. Which doubly solidifies the status you feel over it.

        • The Wet One says:

          Can you explain to me how enjoying the fact that other men check out my significant other is my use of her as a status symbol?

          Assuming you can do that, could you then explain to me how I could have my significant other, note the fact that other men check her out and NOT use her as a status symbol?

          Thanks!

          Also, I knew this post was coming, but anyways… It’s a gas in here! HA!

          • I just did explain it. You use it as a tool to “brag”. Not just once, but several times. And several times through out the postings on this site, you’ve often made comments about attractive young women that were into you. You totally think it ups your status. Or you wouldn’t talk about it so much. You wouldn’t post the kind of things you do about the subject. You’re dialogue about the subject says more then you seem to realize.

            You want to share the fact that other men look at your partner. You’re proud of it. But what do you have to be proud about? You didn’t contribute to her beauty. Her beauty doesn’t makes you a better man. Her beauty says nothing about *you* as a man. So why would you take pleasure at other men looking at her if you thought it did? The pleasure you get from it makes you feel good. Over other men. Status.

            It’s not like your sitting around bragging about how much your mom loves you or the tons of money you make. When men sit around flashing cash we all know they are bragging and measuring their worth through that cash. When men sit around bragging about the hot women that they are with, whether they are girlfriends or hookers, we know that man is measuring his worth through those women.

            It’s one thing to be in a relationship with a beautiful woman and celebrate her beauty. It’s another to brag about it and say how other men check her out and make flip little comments about it through the convers

            • Justa Soares says:

              Bingo.

              That is actually scary the number of men who are oblivious to their own impulses, inner thoughts and motivations. How many times it gets a woman to show them the truth about what they are doing.
              Maybe because they see women as so much less than human, as so inferior and thoughtless… that what they think about us, do to us and use us for is passed for nothing important in their own heads. While we acknowledge, see and feel all of this and have to actually remind them or even teach them about their actions. Amazing. And sad.

    • Actually, I think that Hugo always emphasizes the impact of patriarchy on men’s choices whereas Tom generally denies its impact.

      Neither Tom nor Hugo talk about the relationship between individuals and the culture that they live in. Allan Johnson rightly says that we are all impacted by patriarchy, capitalism and white privilege, but we can choose how we respond to those forces. We can actively promote them, we can just go with the flow, or we can challenge them and work for something better.

      I want to see The Good Men Project challenge patriarchy and work for something better.

      • Good post Marie, and that’s exactly right. I think men and women *both* suffer from the effects of patriarchy and capitalism, it’s just that currently, women are more aware of it. So I don’t “blame” men as individuals for where we have ended up in our still mostly pathetic attempts to have genuine relationships. There are too many men in my life whom I love dearly and I know they mean well and are basically respectful toward women. But I still have to concede that too few of them are willing to challenge some of the basic assumptions about relationships that still poison us all and are still a product of past attitudes/gender roles.

      • Ah, that mythical word Patriarch, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
        If it only existed, then feminists wouldn’t be totally full of crap.

        • Justa Soares says:

          Oh, the MRA idiot who believes women as property never existed and men as the only seen as human, able to have rights or more rights, only one able to start divorce, and the only one able to own money and work never existed and does not still exist in many places of the world.

          It’s in the dictionary, search about it’s meaning. By the way, this world have been around for much, but much longer than feminism, they did not invent the concept. You are full of ignorance.

    • I know several “average dudes” and most of them emphasize women’s looks. Some of them even call their wives and girlfriends “arm candy” and brag that they got the best looking woman.

      When we call these “average dudes” on their objectification of women, they’ll say, “I’m a guy and I can’t help it.” And when we tell them that women want good looking men, they say that women’s standards are too high. :-(

      Not all “average dudes” are like that, but I’ve seen so many that demand “arm candy.” Some of my male friends will tell me about guys who say to them that their wives are so beautiful. But these male friends will say, “They’re just saying it to impress us, as in ‘I got the best looking woman.’

    • Justa Soares says:

      Yeah… and the hotness of a woman is still her most importat attribute for most men. And men usually agree with each other aboutt women’s hotness in general. They may disagree only about who is the hotter.
      And what makes a woman hot is actually really difficult to obtain, have long hair or stylish enough, pluck your eyebrows, wax your mustache, shave your whole body, be skinnier than what is healthy… make-up and cute clothes are a plus, but also seen as necessary to attract most men as well. And men will hold women to these standards. While not putting even 20% of the same effort into themselves… don’t get me wrong, most women will forgive all of that and still believe you are hot while being a full, adult male human – with a hairy body and all – but why men abuse their privilege that way? lol.

  16. Chuck Nevitt says:

    If your woman has the body of a Lane Bryant model and hairy armpits because that’s what you like, doesn’t that make you an alpha too?

    It was easier in Marilyn Monroe and Liz Taylor’s day. Now, a woman has to be an athlete but also have big boobs.

    A discerning man knows that there is something fundamentally twisted about skinny-woman look.

    Going out with a drop-dead sexy female inevitably means you are having two social interactions: one with the woman, and one with the men who are checking her out. Dealing with the latter is tiring, imo.

    • And, honestly, nothing lasts forever, especially not youth and beauty. I heard an eastern European proverb once: young women are like fresh white bread, they get old quickly. Unless you plan on dumping your wife/girlfriend every few years (which some men do, but not feasible for most guys) eventually you will have an older woman on your arm. Hopefully a nice looking older woman, but, still, OLDER. You’d better be able to find her beautiful, or you will be pretty damn miserable.

      • The Wet One says:

        A man’s happiness (much like woman’s) is not wholly dependent on the person they’re with. A few men (as with a few women) fit into that mold, but not most people.

        • What I meant was, if a man values his partner’s youth & beauty over other factors, assuming he wants to have a long term relationship with her, the youth & beauty he values so much is not going to last. I keep reading comments from certain people on this site (not you, Wet One) who express these really deeply negative feelings toward women who are (gasp!) older or less attractive. I always wonder what men like that will do if and when they decide they want to be in a long term relationship with a woman. If it’s true (as some commenters here keep asserting) that it is genetically/biologically impossible for a man to be attracted to a woman who is over 40 or doesn’t have the correct ratio of hips to waist, what do you do with your wife when she hits the big 4-0? Have an affair? Dump her? Sit around feeling angry and bitter and posting nasty comments on the internet about ugly older women? It all seems very sad to me. Same goes for women who value superficial qualities in a mate.

          • Yeah, a lot of men do exactly those things you’re talking about, Jill. And it IS very sad. It’s true that happiness isn’t wholly dependent on the person they’re with, but on the other hand most people really do want the level of intimacy that can only come from a long term relationship and a truly shared life. And many people, when they don’t get that, think the answer is somehow to be found in having a succession of superficial relationships.

            Very sad indeed.

          • Jill,
            I think you’re either missing the point, or maybe those commenters you mention are over-stating the youth angle.

            The way I see it is this:
            Men (at least men who feel confident enough–which by definition is the men women want) will screen which women to pursue based on looks. Men are still looking for love, but the more charming, confident, successful, at ease w/himself, artistic, etc.. a man is the more actively will he screen (by beauty) females in which he invests time.

            The end goal is still love, but the active search takes place across a smaller section of women. If the man finds love (I believe at least) even a very successful man would stick with that women. Although the higher on the totem pole a man is the more women will be throwing themselves at him, and the more temptation he will have. Think donald trump or mega sports athletes.

            This is in no way different and equally shameful/unethical as woman screening men for wealth (which I believe is waaaayy more common, and much less shamed).

            Cradle-robbing men get way more shamed than gold-digging women.
            The issue as linguist points out is the destruction of the social contract between men and women. The removal of at-fault divorce and lack of shaming of men and women who divorce for inane and superfluous reasons is really to blame for the shark tank that dating has become.

            Once again, those interested in fixing things should join shared parenting advocates to help restore the social contract, and re-invigorate the stability of marriage. When marriages are more stable (and especially women are no longer incentivized to end it) then you will see more marriages and less dating, raunch, hookup culture from the 20’s to the 40’s.

            • Jill,
              You could have articles like hugo’s take up all the pages in every newspaper for ten years (and constantly on every tv channel of every minute) and it won’t do any good.

              The need is to address the underlying issues of why the dating realm is a shark tank, not just to endlessly berate men for not behaving in a way that women don’t like.

              2nd wave feminism started for exactly the same reason (women getting messages on how to behave). It won’t work.

              Reestablishing the importance of the social contract between men and women will do way more than hugo’s article.

            • Justa Soares says:

              “This is in no way different and equally shameful/unethical as woman screening men for wealth (which I believe is waaaayy more common, and much less shamed).
              Cradle-robbing men get way more shamed than gold-digging women.”

              Women screening men for wealth is more common than men screening women for beauty? LMAOOOOOOOOOHOHOHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!
              Most women could care less about a man’s income. Most men actually see the woman’s beauty as the most important attribute. MOST MEN. And even the ones who don’t will admit they would want the hottest woman if possible. Women also care about looks, but not as much, have no high standards as men and are much more forgiving and willing to date out of their league (less attractive). Mst women are alright with their men’s looks and actually would not want the hottest men out there… they are realistic and actually believe in “fairness”, not to mention we don’t see hot men as more valuable than less than hot men and we don’t rank men’s looks in a scale of 1 to 10. SOME women do, not the majority. In fact, an attractive man and another attractive man are both 10’s for us, in general.
              Gold-digging women are more shamed than gold-digging men. Women who date younger hot guys cause of their money are shamed to hell. Men who do the same are praised.

  17. CandidCutie says:

    First there is a difference between fashion and beauty but… GTFOH – I can’t take some of these comments seriously. Men are not influenced by competition? Why do blonde’s have more fun? Why are their no beauty pageants with men that are the equivalent to Miss Universe or Miss World? Why do women get breast implants. Why do all of the women in commercial porn from Playboy to XXX look the same? Why are fat women always ridiculed as non sexual?

    There has been no definitive answer as to what constitutes universal beauty, but over time there has been evidence of specific ideals of beauty tied to culture. Is it possible for someone to address the argument with the goal of reaching mutual understanding instead of defending feminism or men’s rights for the sake of winning an argument?

  18. Well Hugo, you’re articles always make me feel hopeful that there are men out there that get it and work to improve things not just for women’s sake, but for the sake of how men and women relate to each other. But then I read the responses and I admit to feeling sad/defeated about how most of the men responded view women. The sad thing of it all is that these things aren’t even positives for young women either. Because young women grow older too. So if a man is interested in them for their youth, he really isn’t respecting them anymore then he is respecting older women for shaming them for being older.

    The tone of a few of the men’s response just have me baffled. So much anger and so much comments about how women *deserse* what they get. And that we must *pay* for it. Pay for what? I don’t spend my time turning down men and purposely hurting them but somehow I’m suppose to *pay* for some imagined slight feminism created. Now because women go to work, just like men, I’m suppose to end up old and alone. Now because women ask for divroces more then men, other men (that might not even have experienced divorce!) will gleefully express how I *deserve* what I get. And apparently what they think I deserve to get and how I deserve to *pay* is to be old and alone. And why? Because ome super hot girl didn’t want to date him? Because women are in the work force? I’m just baffled at the anger and misogny.

    But thank you for fighting the good fight for men and women and brining your unique perspective to The Good Man Project. And thank you for this last comment in your article:

    “Men can’t have it both ways—insisting that beauty and make-up and clothes are irrelevant and bewildering wastes of time, and then responding with such unmistakable desire to those whose skin is youthful, and whose ability to negotiate the sexy/slutty dichotomy seems the most natural and effortless.  Well-meaning compliments have to be backed up by our actions. And in our contemporary culture, women take their cues about what really matters as much from our actions as they do from Vogue and Project Runway. Admitting that would be a good place for guys to start.”

    It’s so very true that it amazes me more people don’t see it. I’ve struggled a long time with my looks and weight and striving to look a certain way that I never will. And the men I dated weren’t bad guys at all but they berated me for being upset with them for looking at porn or 20 year old girls. They would say things like “I am with you for so much more then that.” or the classic” I’m a man I like attractive women!”.

    It’s great that men like women for more then their looks. But I don’t understand why men expect women to be happy with that alone when men aren’t. I just don’t understand how more man can’t see how much of a battle it is for average women everyday. And how we try hard to fight what the media tells us is beautiful about women. Women can’t fight it alone. Because how can I be with a man that buys into the stereotypes about women and their bodies while I try to fight it? How can a man sit there and oggle porn but tell me that I am being shallow for being worried about how I look or in turn tell me how good my heart is? He isn’t looking at porn for women with good hearts. Why is it okay for men to be shallow but berate their partners for questioning how their looks come into play. Why is okay for men to say “i’m a man, I like attractive women”, but when you are a woman and say “I’m a woman, I just want to be the most attractive woman to my partner”, you’re seen as illogical and shallow?

    You hit the nail on the head Hugo. Man can’t have it both ways without causing strife in their own relationships. they can’t sit there and tell their wives and girlfriends how much they love them for their personalities expecting that to be enough for them while they consume porn or objectfy women their looks, clearly expressing that their own woman’s good heart isn’t enough. It seems to me that a lot of men want women to be stronger then themselves. Which is why men don’t want their partners to be bothered by the message they send by looking at women but want to use the excuse about how “he is just a guy and likes attractive women. Because it’s not right to ask women to be strong enough to stand up against how women are judged shallow for their looks, while still demanding women maintain those same looks and not ask their male partners to be anything better then ” a man who just likes attractive women”.

    Please step up to the plate guys. Women will throw you a good ball only if you step up to the plate and play good naturedly with us. Isn’t that what we all really want anyway? More peace and understanding between men and women? Cause i am personally sick of the same venom about how women are only as good as their age or breast size and men are only as good as their height or wallets.

    • Erin, Hugo’s posts are filled with baseless assertions that seem to confirm your own biases, leading you to mistake his unfounded claims with “hitting the nail on the head.”

      As an example, Hugo asserts that men who claim to care about a woman in their lives are actually lying and primarily care about how that woman garners them status with other men. To get there, Hugo is assuming that men making this specific claim are lying. This is incredibly unfair as it marginalizes the actual experiences of men by assuming without proof that their experiences are misrepresented (that they are lying about what they actually desire).

      When actual statistics are brought up (earlier in the thread one of Hugo’s detractors pointed out that women initiate 70% of all divorces), they are ignored in favor of a narrative rather than competing statistics: commenters leveled the claim that women were being pushed into initiating divorce, and so who initiated it didn’t matter. No numbers were offered to back this up. The moment someone is unwilling to even try and find evidence to back their opinions, there is no point in having a conversation: that person is a zealot.

      But more importantly, when the exact same arguments Hugo levels at men are aimed at women, he (and I suspect many of the commenters) have historically rejected them as baseless.

      As a prime example: we can all see that there are women who primarily care about power and money rather than the love of the men they are with (Charlie Sheen’s “goddesses,” Donald Trump’s wives, most women Bill Clinton has been with…). It has previously been claimed, here and otherwise that these women are TYPICAL: the average woman is concerned only with the status garnered by her lover’s power and money.

      But this argument is usually rejected by Hugo and other feminists (and rightly so), because it marginalizes the actual experiences of the majority of women. The exception is not the rule, it is the exception.

      And now here comes Hugo arguing that because we can see some men caring more about status with other men than with the women they are with, then that MUST be the rule and not the exception. Yet Hugo has no more proof than the (presumably) men who claimed that Ivanna Trump is the rule and not the exception. And just as the actual experiences of the majority of women are marginalized by the claim “Women only care about money and power,” so too are the expriences of the majority of men marginalized by the claim “Men only care about status among other men.”

      Without any actual evidence, the latter is every bit as wrong as the former, and Hugo needs to be called out for it.

      • Mike- I don’t see anywhere in Hugo’s post where he is saying men are lying if they care about a beautiful woman in their life. What he is saying is that some men measure their masculinity through the looks of their partners. I’ve never heard a man brag about his wife turning 40. I have heard men brag about their younger wives and other men cheer him on. Does this mean that these men don’t love their wives? No. But it does mean that a woman’s look are commodities on some level. And this “proudness” a man feels in his wives appearance is less about her and more about him and how he appears to other men.

        Women do initiate more divorce but not because men are longingly in love and women are breaking their hearts. Statistically along with that 70% divorce rate, men are more likely to stay in relationships they are unhappy in romantically and live with the status que. Women tend to not look at it the same way. Men also have more to lose in the divorce courts since courts are partial to women.

        I agree that there are women that primarily care about power and money rather then love. However, the difference is other women aren’t slapping these women on the back and cheering them on. Charlie Sheen’s “goddesses” where jokes to women and some men. Other men thought Charlie Sheen was the man because not only where these women younger then him, one was a Porn Star. In my own dating life I’ve dated men with all kinds of jobs. Blue collar and white collar. Most women don’t require a man have extreme social power. He just really needs one strength. One thing he is passionate about. Maybe he is book smart, or physically strong or whatever. Most women don’t want Donald Trump and aren’t sitting around masturbating to images of rich men. Most men do seem to want women who are very beautiful and do sit around masturbating to images of beautiful young women.

      • Excellent post Mike.

    • Hi Erin, don’t let the haters get you down. No point trying to win them over. You are not the jerk whisperer! :-)

      The guys who post those comments are bitter and angry for whatever reason in their personal lives. instead of dealing with it, they spew bile on the internet. Their loss.

      • I agree with you, Jill and Erin. Hugo’s posts are good, but it’s depressing to see so much defensiveness and hatred of feminists among the male responders.

        I think Hugo think he needs to write posts like “I’m not rich and I don’t run a Fortune 500 company, so how can a guy like me be privileged?” and “I don’t believe it. Show me how I learned the Guy Code.”

        The fish are usually the last ones to notice the water, as they say in sociological circles. The Good Men Project needs to show men how to notice the water.

      • Jun Kafiotties says:

        What is funny but sad is that SOME of the females commenting against those men are also generalizing, using personal experience as what ALL men or ALL women do, having the same bitterness and ignorance that some of the males are doing.

        Quite frankly all I’m seeing are both genders both giving their opinions and then denying others, trying to ignore the female’s doing wrong aspect whilst criticizing heavily the males doing wrong aspect.

        “Hugo’s posts are filled with baseless assertions that seem to confirm your own biases, leading you to mistake his unfounded claims with “hitting the nail on the head.” This is SO SO SO TRUE but She and others are too blinded by bitterness to realize it.

        We need a good women project, to show the women how to notice the water as well. Hiding behind a few popular theories some of the women are simply trying to suggest males are bad, women are the victim.

        What people absolutely fail to realize is that attraction VARIES PERSON TO PERSON. Not every single male will find the same thing appealing, not every single woman will find the same thign appealing. There is a possibility that men are most attracted to younger women for fertility reasons at an instinctual level, which might influence their choices for partners. There’s also the possibility that women are influenced by various attributes of a male such as strong genes, fertility, ability to provide resources for the family. There’s also the possibility that society and culture heavily influence our attraction, and there’s also personal experience which can influence our decisions.

        All these possibilities yet people are confident in thinking men ONLY like young women, and women ONLY like rich men? Cmon now, I’m sure we’re all intelligent enough to realize we can’t judge what everyone finds attractive because IT VARIES PERSON TO PERSON.

        Both genders are to blame, both can be victims, both can be abused, both contribute to culture and society (in today’s age both have the ability in some form to contribute quite heavily), so instead of sitting there and generalizing that the other gender is all evil….OPEN YOUR EYES.

        • “What people absolutely fail to realize is that attraction VARIES PERSON TO PERSON.”

          I read and hear this all the time: we are all *unique* individuals that are so utterly independent of one another that to generalize in any way is a supreme injustice!

          ALSO (in a more extreme variant): Look, look! My life or my friend’s life or some other anecdote contradicts the generalization, so the generalization is worthless because it doesn’t account for every single person! Don’t tread on me, I’m my own person!

          Nobody has formulated every thought, tendency and practice (conscious and unconscious) all by their very own selves. Indeed, evidence abounds that we are deeply affected by exposure to cultural practices.

          Nothing Hugo wrote is claiming men are evil, nor are most comments suggestive of YOUR generalization about ongoing discussions, either.

        • When a site or an article focuses on social movements or trends, there HAS to be some level of generalization. Whether or not it’s accurate or not is, of course, up for debate. But I don’t think that pointing out a social trend, particularly one as obvious as an obsession with youth, is really going out on a limb too much. Of course some men prefer older women. Of course everyone is an individual. But, the point here is social commentary, not commentary on you.

          This website exists for the purpose of examining social trends, or perceived social trends, and analyzing them, correcting them, supporting them, or trying to pull them down. It’s not a personal insult to all men.

          If you were to say “American women tend to major in liberal arts fields, rather than in Math or Science,” it would be a generalization. But it’s a true generalization. It might not hold true for each American woman, but it’s true on the whole for American women.

          Trends matter. Social movements matter. They have causes and reasons that back them up, even if they don’t apply to every person everywhere. Analyzing this is a good thing and can bring positive change.

          • Justa Soares says:

            Straight men are afraid of change. Even more when it comes to acknowledging their own faults and part of the blame for treating women as less than human and not holding themselves to the same standards they hold women to.

        • Justa Soares says:

          Women are not the ones saying they only like rich men. In fact, most women don’t and most women actually despise women like that. Most articles for women trying to find a mate is about finding a good guy who loves you. Most women care about a man’s personality (humor and confidence are the most mentioned, usually) and passion the most.

          Men actually ARE the ones saying men in general (or ALL MEN, look above!) dislike older women and go for beauty and youth mostly or only. In fact, that is a truth most men can’t deny and do not deny. Most articles for men trying to find a mate is about findind a beautiful and/or hot woman who could know how to cook and give great blowjobs as well. Most men care about a woman’s beauty and grace the most.

          The old rule men go for beauty, women go for personality is a generalization. But a true one, as most people of both genders really act like that.

      • It’s hard not too sometimes Jill but thanks for the encouragment. I laughed at the “jerk whisperer” comment.

      • Jill said:
        The guys who post those comments are bitter and angry for whatever reason in their personal lives.
        ======
        I’ve been seeing way more bitter comments from women stating “all guys do ________”

        Berating men to behave in a manner you think they should won’t work.

        Berating all critics of either gender as being f*cked up isn’t part of the solution.

        • Justa Soares says:

          Still you berate feminists and call them full of crap. Hello, hypocrite. Thanks for not being part of the solution.

    • “Well Hugo, you’re articles always make me feel hopeful that there are men out there that get it and work to improve things not just for women’s sake, but for the sake of how men and women relate to each other.”
      Have you looked into Hugo’s own lifestyle choices? He is married to a former model, many years his younger.

      “But then I read the responses and I admit to feeling sad/defeated about how most of the men responded view women. The sad thing of it all is that these things aren’t even positives for young women either. Because young women grow older too. So if a man is interested in them for their youth, he really isn’t respecting them anymore then he is respecting older women for shaming them for being older.”
      So what? Considering how feminists keep screaming their heads off about how men that don’t succeed just have to be content with living on their own, the same should apply to women.

      ” And apparently what they think I deserve to get and how I deserve to *pay* is to be old and alone. And why? Because ome super hot girl didn’t want to date him? Because women are in the work force? I’m just baffled at the anger and misogny.”
      No Erin it works like this. The theory of the Nice Guy ™ and it’s implication tells me, a 28 year old virgin that women don’t want to date me because I am an asshole, and women can sense this from miles away, thus I get the female companionship I deserve. Now, enter Hugo Schwyzer, a man who has abused his power position for years on an end, who has lied, deceived and manipulated. Yet somehow he has managed to ‘not be single much since the age of 16′, this doesn’t hold with the theory of women being able to weed out the a-holes among men.
      Add to this that feminists keep screaming about their right to preference, that now not only do they have the right to only go after men that make much more money than they do, they also have the right to demand that the men they prefer are in excellent shape and have an enormous amount of interests in their spare time. From this comes that the same things work in reverse, women get exactly the male companionship they deserve, and every man has the right to any preference in women he so wishes.
      If older women fall out of this frame, well to bad, but remember first axiom of feminism, right to preference, always, everywhere.

      “But thank you for fighting the good fight for men and women and brining your unique perspective to The Good Man Project. And thank you for this last comment in your article:”
      Said by the man who married a former model, much much younger than himself. Doesn’t hold water.

      “It’s so very true that it amazes me more people don’t see it. I’ve struggled a long time with my looks and weight and striving to look a certain way that I never will. And the men I dated weren’t bad guys at all but they berated me for being upset with them for looking at porn or 20 year old girls. They would say things like “I am with you for so much more then that.” or the classic” I’m a man I like attractive women!”.”
      Yes? So what, I have struggled with my weight all my life, but I get no support. I just have to listen to feminists insisting that being in shape is a function of your moral fiber and that their preferences can’t be changed. Now you know what it feels like. Take it to the feminists instead.

      “Please step up to the plate guys. Women will throw you a good ball only if you step up to the plate and play good naturedly with us. Isn’t that what we all really want anyway? More peace and understanding between men and women? Cause i am personally sick of the same venom about how women are only as good as their age or breast size and men are only as good as their height or wallets.”
      Sorry, I refuse to first read feminists without hesitation going out in national media about how it is just natural for them to lust after the big dick and the six-packs, supported by their feminist beliefs and then suddenly after that demand that I feel sympathy for women. Be the change you want to see in the world for once.

      • There is just so much wrong with this post.

        If you’ve had the same type of struggles that these women have had, why are your replies so unsympathetic? Maybe you have more in common than you think. While it may be tempting to view women as the “enemy” and take pleasure when they suffer as you do, you should keep in mind that the women on this board are probably not the same women that have rejected you in your life. They’re completely different people with completely different experiences. They might even have similar experiences to you. I know a few 25+ virgins who are women and they all struggle with it – it’s difficult no matter what your gender happens to be.

        Also, I have to say that I’m not sure what “feminists” you’re talking about. “Feminist” is a pretty broad term and I can honestly say that no one that I know who identifies as “feminist” has an ideology that is even remotely similar to the ones that you’re discussing. I’ve never watched any TV show where a bunch of women sat around talking about “lusting after big dicks”. I think that your view of feminism might be a bit off.

        There will always be people who use others for pleasure and ego boosts and status and money and connections. These people aren’t called “feminists” – they’re called “jerks” and they can be either gender.

        • “If you’ve had the same type of struggles that these women have had, why are your replies so unsympathetic?”
          You get what you put in, and considering how I have just gotten the attitude that my troubles are of my own devising and that I should change to counter them, it is quite easy to extrapolate the origin of my hostility.

          “Maybe you have more in common than you think. While it may be tempting to view women as the “enemy” and take pleasure when they suffer as you do, you should keep in mind that the women on this board are probably not the same women that have rejected you in your life. ”

          Sorry, they are very much the same. Amanda Marcotte wrote a piece on getting dates on this very page, read her coloumn over at pandagon on preferences and deal breakers. Besides, and this is the major point. If women are magically able to smell out manipulative bastards and reject their company, why does a man like Hugo get to procreate like a rabbit?

          “They’re completely different people with completely different experiences. They might even have similar experiences to you. I know a few 25+ virgins who are women and they all struggle with it – it’s difficult no matter what your gender happens to be.”
          With the main difference that there is no vocal masculinist movement telling the 25+ female virgins that they get what they deserve and if they just stopped being manipulative passive aggressive bastards everything would solve itself.

          “Also, I have to say that I’m not sure what “feminists” you’re talking about. “Feminist” is a pretty broad term and I can honestly say that no one that I know who identifies as “feminist” has an ideology that is even remotely similar to the ones that you’re discussing. I’ve never watched any TV show where a bunch of women sat around talking about “lusting after big dicks”. I think that your view of feminism might be a bit off.”
          I have, women very busy with talking about their feminist beliefs and then turning a program about prostate cancer into a debate about how sexy big dicks are.

          “There will always be people who use others for pleasure and ego boosts and status and money and connections. These people aren’t called “feminists” – they’re called “jerks” and they can be either gender.”
          Kind of like Hugo trash talks men as a group, in order to feel better about himself, and yet I have not seen one single feminist woman come out and question his feminists beliefs.

          The question still stands. Why does a former substance abuser, former alcoholic and manipulative asshole like Hugo, please look up what he did to his female students at his college before his epiphany, why does a man like this get to tell others how they should live their lives and why is Hugo held as a shinning beacon of feminist righteousness?

          • There’s no doubt that some men can hide their bad sides very well. Women do not have an ability to automatically know who is “good’ and who is ‘bad”. They use their best judgment and sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. Women can, however, usually tell when someone is giving off very blatantly hostile vibes, like you are.

            “Sorry, they are very much the same.”
            This is your problem right here. As long as you run around thinking that all women, even ones that you’ve never even met, have done you some grievous personal harm, you’ll never find anyone that you like. Not all women are the same. I’ll say it again. Not all women are the same. Most women don’t even identify with the label “feminist”, which you seem to have such a problem with.

            I’ll ask you a question: Would you want a woman who had just agreed to go on a date with you to read your posts on this site? Would you want this women to read what you have written about women? If the answer is no, you might want to think about why.

            Here is how this situation might turn ugly: A person thinks that all women are horrible, rotten people who act and think alike. Because that’s this person’s mindset, he can’t find any women that he actually likes. Because he can’t find a women to connect to, his interest in women tends to be purely sexual or of a hostile nature, which turns most women off. Because most women are turned off, he is unable to find a woman who is interested in him. His lack of dates reinforces his idea that all women are horrible, rotten people who act and think alike.

            As for your hostility toward Hugo, I think it’s worth noting that people are allowed to make genuine changes in their lives. If he was writing articles about how is past behavior was so cool and awesome and all guys to aspire to be like him, he wouldn’t have the female following that he has today. Women support his current behavior, not his past behavior.

            • “There’s no doubt that some men can hide their bad sides very well. Women do not have an ability to automatically know who is “good’ and who is ‘bad”. They use their best judgment and sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. Women can, however, usually tell when someone is giving off very blatantly hostile vibes, like you are.”

              That is not what is said about the Nice Guy(tm), there it is blatantly stated that women can detect manipulative assholes and therefore avoid them. This detection capability might explain why women shun me, but it doesn’t explain why then men who have a public history of using and abusing women have women flocking to them.

              “This is your problem right here. As long as you run around thinking that all women, even ones that you’ve never even met, have done you some grievous personal harm, you’ll never find anyone that you like.”
              How many samples does one need in order to make a statement about all of the sample space? Do I need to record every sunset in the history of the sun to be pretty certain that the sun will rise tomorrow as well?

              “Not all women are the same. I’ll say it again. Not all women are the same. Most women don’t even identify with the label “feminist”, which you seem to have such a problem with.”
              See above, plus I have a gigantic problem with the feminist movement that seems to believe that women have the right to everything, yet are somehow victims when they face the very same things they are so good at dishing out.

              “I’ll ask you a question: Would you want a woman who had just agreed to go on a date with you to read your posts on this site? Would you want this women to read what you have written about women? If the answer is no, you might want to think about why.”
              That would never happen, I have grown to accept that I will never be in that situation.

              “Here is how this situation might turn ugly: A person thinks that all women are horrible, rotten people who act and think alike. Because that’s this person’s mindset, he can’t find any women that he actually likes. Because he can’t find a women to connect to, his interest in women tends to be purely sexual or of a hostile nature, which turns most women off. Because most women are turned off, he is unable to find a woman who is interested in him. His lack of dates reinforces his idea that all women are horrible, rotten people who act and think alike.”
              Sorry, Hugo had no problem getting the attention of women, despite changing women more often than I change my shirt. This is just a silencing technique used to explain to the ones that lose the game why they shouldn’t try to change the game. Besides, my hostility comes from years of following female dialogue along the lines of ‘I am so lonely, I would like to have a boyfriend. But not one of those loser dudes that are always single. they are probably single because they are worthless and deserve it’.

              “As for your hostility toward Hugo, I think it’s worth noting that people are allowed to make genuine changes in their lives. If he was writing articles about how is past behavior was so cool and awesome and all guys to aspire to be like him, he wouldn’t have the female following that he has today. Women support his current behavior, not his past behavior.”
              That was not the discussion. The discussion was that women state that they can detect manipulative a-holes and shun them. Look at what kind of life Hugo lived before he started preaching to everyone else how they should live their life. He had sex with his students, he picked up women at a blazing speed, he abused all kinds of substances. This should be a prime example of a manipulative a-hole. Yet somehow he had no problem finding willing women. All this about womens’ magical ability to detect bad men is just a way to try and create a sexual caste system.

            • “That is not what is said about the Nice Guy(tm), there it is blatantly stated that women can detect manipulative assholes and therefore avoid them.”
              I’m not super familiar with “Nice Guy(tm)”, but I am pretty familiar with reality and I can assure you that women do not have Jerk ESP. There is no 6th sense for crappy people. Everyone, women and men both, just try to get a feel for people and base their opinions on that. It’s not just with sex and relationships, either – it works the same way with friendships and acquaintances. Everyone, at some point, has though “oh, this person is nice”, only to find out later that the person is manipulative or catty or an opportunist. If some book is telling you that women have some mystical sense about guys, maybe you should be a bit more skeptical.

              “How many samples does one need in order to make a statement about all of the sample space?”
              We’re not talking about samples here. We’re talking about real, actual women that you meet in your everyday life. Even if you had data (which you don’t) that said that 70% of women intentionally date jerks (which they don’t), if you meet a woman at a party, you can’t assume that she’s one of those 70%. You can’t talk down to her or dismiss her or be hostile to her or treat her like she’s done something personally wrong to you. She’s not a sample, she’s a person.

              “plus I have a gigantic problem with the feminist movement that seems to believe that women have the right to everything, yet are somehow victims when they face the very same things they are so good at dishing out. ”
              Did you even read what I wrote? I said most women are NOT feminists. You breezed right over that one and continued on your same little rant. You’ve got the wrong idea of feminism. But, even if I can’t convince you to change your mind on that, you should at least be aware that “feminists” are really only a small portion of women. But something tells me that you won’t believe that because it would mess up your little “women = feminist = entitled bitches” mindset.

              “That would never happen, I have grown to accept that I will never be in that situation. ”
              That’s very sad. Maybe if you thought you had hope, you’d have more motivation to think better of women. The question isn’t why women don’t want to date you, because that’s pretty clear. The question is why would you want to date women if you think so poorly of them. If all women are such awful people, why would you even want them in your life? Are you adopting a negative view of women to make yourself feel better about their absence in your life? Something along the lines of “I don’t have anyone, but that’s okay because they’re all a-holes, anyway”?

              “The discussion was that women state that they can detect manipulative a-holes and shun them”
              Excuse me? I’m pretty sure that I said the exact opposite of this. I stated it again at the beginning of this post, in case you missed it a second time. It seems that the only people stating this are your Nice Guys, who are men, not women. If someone is acting in a way that is blatantly obvious, of course people will notice. But, most people don’t act in a way that’s blatantly obvious. Picking up on something that is as plain as day is a far cry from having Jerk ESP. If a woman asks a guy how much money he makes before she even asks his name, would you say that a guy would have to have a 6th sense to guess that this woman is a gold digger? I’m assuming not. It works the same way with women. If a guy makes comments that indicate that a) he’s only interested in your body or b) hates women in general (which is what I pick up in your case, buddy), no woman in her right mind would stick around. But there are plenty of guys who, unfortunately, just hide it better than others. It doesn’t make them any less of jerks, but it would probably make them more likely to have female company before their true nature is revealed. It’s not some mysterious female magic – it’s just logic.

              “All this about womens’ magical ability to detect bad men is just a way to try and create a sexual caste system.”
              Again, if someone is telling you that women can detect every jerk every time, they’re just plain wrong. It’s not realistic and it’s not logical. There is no grand conspiracy. Women are not intentionally dating jerks just to block you, 8of10, from getting laid. You can think what you want of Hugo, but his experience has nothing to do with yours. It’s not a 0 sum game. It’s not like those women who were with him would have been with you instead had their “Jerk radar” functioned a bit better. You acknowledge that your hostility toward women is blatant, so I’m not sure how this 6th sense even comes into play.

            • “Not all women are the same”

              We always hear that when people call out women’s bad behavior, as if it were required that every last woman do something before we call it out as a problem. There is even an acronym for that “NAWALT”.

              It is enough that many women are “like that” for us to call out a pattern. This whole issue is about the general case.

            • 8outof10 is suggesting a pattern or calling out a tendency – he’s saying that literally all women are the same. That’s just impossible.

              But, oh, there’s an internet acronym for it? An acronym created by Nice Guys? Well, then I guess that really shows me.

              Maybe the reason that women keep saying NAWALT is because you’re blatantly and unfairly stereotyping every one you meet? Just a thought.

          • Lolabunny says:

            “Sorry, they are very much the same.”
            They, who? All women? Like all men are rapists in potential? Ok then.

            “With the main difference that there is no vocal masculinist movement telling the 25+ female virgins that they get what they deserve and if they just stopped being manipulative passive aggressive bastards everything would solve itself.”
            We don’t need it, regular men already do that to us on a regular basis. But they tell us that we are just too fat, ugly, hairy, not submissive enough or bitchy. Or just tell us that women past 25 are just worthless already, as only younger women are valuable. For everything else, we have the MRAs and the idiots from A Voice for Men.

            “Kind of like Hugo trash talks men as a group, in order to feel better about himself, and yet I have not seen one single feminist woman come out and question his feminists beliefs.”
            Even radical feminists hate the dude: http://radicalprofeminist.blogspot.com.br/2013/08/hugo-schwyzer-feminism-and-privilege.html

            “I have, women very busy with talking about their feminist beliefs and then turning a program about prostate cancer into a debate about how sexy big dicks are.”
            You must be new. Men are turning everything about women into debates about what woman is the hottest and big boobs and shit like that. Women don’t even feel itchy about it anymore, as it is just so common. Men do that in real life all the time, too. Even our own fathers in front of us.

      • Lolabunny says:

        “So what? Considering how feminists keep screaming their heads off about how men that don’t succeed just have to be content with living on their own, the same should apply to women.”
        ????? What feminists are telling men to live on their own if they do not “succeed” (in what sense)?
        And if you believe that is a bad thing (I get from the comment you believe it is), why do you want women to suffer ignorance and hatred from men?

        “The theory of the Nice Guy ™ and it’s implication tells me, a 28 year old virgin that women don’t want to date me because I am an asshole, and women can sense this from miles away, thus I get the female companionship I deserve. Now, enter Hugo Schwyzer, a man who has abused his power position for years on an end, who has lied, deceived and manipulated. Yet somehow he has managed to ‘not be single much since the age of 16′, this doesn’t hold with the theory of women being able to weed out the a-holes among men.”
        There are many types of assholes. There are the cunning, intelligent ones like Hugo, who are charming (and also good looking) and know how to fake a different persona. Now there are the bad assholes, too dumb to fake it and actually focus on the women who are even more dumb to not see it, or women with the lowest self-esteem out there. That is true most women can see when you are a too obvious asshole. That is true you can convince many of these women otherwise when you are a master of disguise. And that you can even convince many women who are just too immature, broke and have super low self-esteem to be with you even when you are an obvious asshole. That all depends on the chance.
        You, for example, is the type of asshole who is open about it, could care less about women’s issues and actually find it good when women receive any “payback” you believe they deserve and is too emotionally immature to see anything other than your own prejudice. You just can’t see anything men do to women as wrong, just payback. You don’t get sad with women being treated poorly by society, but is fast to fake your victimization. Fake victimization because real victims would never act like you, they actually feel sympathy for everyone, including the ones of the same gender/race/nationality that did hurt them in the past or are still hurting them now.
        But hey, let me tell you something: you still CAN find a woman who will like you and take your virginity, you just have to fake being a nice guy in the beginning and screen for the females who are self-haters, have the lowest self-esteem, are sexist with their one gender/misogynists like you and got abused by their parents when younger so now they are so broken they seek it again and again… these are the women who would get with you.
        Not that I want you to do that, I would want you to seek help, but hey, I know you wouldn’t anyway and will end up hurting some women in the meanwhile, so there my tips for you to finally find a woman. Hope you enjoy it.

        “Add to this that feminists keep screaming about their right to preference, that now not only do they have the right to only go after men that make much more money than they do, they also have the right to demand that the men they prefer are in excellent shape and have an enormous amount of interests in their spare time.”
        Eh, you see, most feminists are really protective over the right to preference. That doesn’t mean all preferences are good and supported. Most feminists would never support the preference for someone because of their money. Nor the shallow preferences of going only for people who are the top of the beauty standards, even more when you are not there as well. Or the shallow thoughts that women (or men) who are over 40 are worthless and have no “market value” anymore. Or a society that leads many people to choose only much younger partners for the very last same reason, even less when trading affection for money.

        “Yes? So what, I have struggled with my weight all my life, but I get no support. I just have to listen to feminists insisting that being in shape is a function of your moral fiber and that their preferences can’t be changed. Now you know what it feels like. Take it to the feminists instead.”
        You talk about your pain like it really hurts, and I know it does, but then turn around and ask “so what?” when someone else talk about their own problems? You see, you do have problems, but the biggest ones are your sexism, addiction to the gender war and blind, ignorant bitterness.
        Now, citations about the feminists, please. I don’t see many feminists being like that about body image problems, they are usually really passionate and serious about it.
        And again, you talk about women experiencing problems about their image as if it were something new. Come on, that is something women experience much more than men and have been experiencing for ages. you know, since the times where men would sell their own daughters and buy women and wives… for their looks.

        “Sorry, I refuse to first read feminists without hesitation going out in national media about how it is just natural for them to lust after the big dick and the six-packs, supported by their feminist beliefs and then suddenly after that demand that I feel sympathy for women. Be the change you want to see in the world for once.”
        Citations needed. That is just not something feminism in general holds true.
        And again, you may not feel sympathy for these obvious ignorant women (that I believe you are making up, but still), but why women, all women, are being the focus of your lack of concern here? So, so many women are attacked by men as well, and have been attacked and held as less than human for centuries, what still happens in many parts of the world… so you are ok with women not feeling any sympathy for men as well?
        What are YOU doing to change the world? Talking shit on the internet while being a misogynist? You are not here to change, you are not here for being a good person. you want war, prejudice and pay. You are twisted.

  19. I meant to say, “I think Hugo needs to write posts like “I’m not rich and I don’t run a Fortune 500 company so how can a guy like me be privileged?” . . .

  20. “I’m not super familiar with “Nice Guy(tm)”, but I am pretty familiar with reality and I can assure you that women do not have Jerk ESP. ”
    Great, tell that to heartless bitches, Hugo and Amanda Marcotte, when the rant about the Nice Guy ™.

    “There is no 6th sense for crappy people. Everyone, women and men both, just try to get a feel for people and base their opinions on that. It’s not just with sex and relationships, either – it works the same way with friendships and acquaintances. Everyone, at some point, has though “oh, this person is nice”, only to find out later that the person is manipulative or catty or an opportunist. If some book is telling you that women have some mystical sense about guys, maybe you should be a bit more skeptical.”
    I am skeptical, I have brought this up as a point lots of times, if women are equiped with a magical jerk radar. How come there is male on female violence in close relations? The women should detect those tendencies and leave, if they have this magical ESP.

    “We’re not talking about samples here. We’re talking about real, actual women that you meet in your everyday life. Even if you had data (which you don’t) that said that 70% of women intentionally date jerks (which they don’t), if you meet a woman at a party, you can’t assume that she’s one of those 70%. You can’t talk down to her or dismiss her or be hostile to her or treat her like she’s done something personally wrong to you. She’s not a sample, she’s a person.”
    See Schoredinger’s rapist, a feminst piece of propaganda that tells us that every woman has the right to judge any man based on what other men have done to her.

    “Did you even read what I wrote? I said most women are NOT feminists. You breezed right over that one and continued on your same little rant. You’ve got the wrong idea of feminism. But, even if I can’t convince you to change your mind on that, you should at least be aware that “feminists” are really only a small portion of women.”
    It is a small portion when there is something bad being discussed, but when something good is being discussed, then feminists speak for all of womankind.

    “But something tells me that you won’t believe that because it would mess up your little “women = feminist = entitled bitches” mindset.”
    If you play with fire, don’t complain when you get burned.

    “That’s very sad. Maybe if you thought you had hope, you’d have more motivation to think better of women. The question isn’t why women don’t want to date you, because that’s pretty clear.”
    I am not in the least bit as assholish as Hugo was in his hay day so that shouldn’t be a problem, judging from previous examples.

    “The question is why would you want to date women if you think so poorly of them. If all women are such awful people, why would you even want them in your life? Are you adopting a negative view of women to make yourself feel better about their absence in your life? Something along the lines of “I don’t have anyone, but that’s okay because they’re all a-holes, anyway”?

    I would be a-ok with never dating. What makes my gears grind is seeing young women first talking about how they have every right to talk about how unattractive overweight men are, how they have every right judge a man because he doesn’t have an interesting enough past-time, then somehow magically I am supposed to feel sorry and pay money to projects that help young women with performance anxiety and body-shame

    “Excuse me? I’m pretty sure that I said the exact opposite of this. I stated it again at the beginning of this post, in case you missed it a second time. It seems that the only people stating this are your Nice Guys, who are men, not women.”
    Read up on you heartless bitches, your feministing and your Hugo Schwyzer.

    “If someone is acting in a way that is blatantly obvious, of course people will notice. But, most people don’t act in a way that’s blatantly obvious. Picking up on something that is as plain as day is a far cry from having Jerk ESP.”
    I have seen plenty of men verbally abusing other men, putting them down and airing inferiority complexes by having to talk about their drunken escapades in the middle of a discussion on partial differential equations. For some reason these men always have harems of women lusting after them. How is this?

    “If a woman asks a guy how much money he makes before she even asks his name, would you say that a guy would have to have a 6th sense to guess that this woman is a gold digger? I’m assuming not. It works the same way with women. If a guy makes comments that indicate that a) he’s only interested in your body or b) hates women in general (which is what I pick up in your case, buddy), no woman in her right mind would stick around.”
    So this is why Charlie Sheen has been married 3 times? This is why Hugo has been married 4 times?
    This is why almost all famous serial killers have harems of women?

    “But there are plenty of guys who, unfortunately, just hide it better than others. It doesn’t make them any less of jerks, but it would probably make them more likely to have female company before their true nature is revealed. It’s not some mysterious female magic – it’s just logic.”
    It states that women aren’t turned of by jerks and that manipulation can work quite well, despite what women say.

    !Again, if someone is telling you that women can detect every jerk every time, they’re just plain wrong. It’s not realistic and it’s not logical. There is no grand conspiracy. Women are not intentionally dating jerks just to block you, 8of10, from getting laid.”
    I don’t care, really. What I care about is that woman who was too cool and had too high value on the meat market to even have the decency to shut up about how worhtless overweight dirt poor grad student 8of10 was when they were in the 20s can’t come back when she is 40 and complain that men only are after looks and younger women.

    “You can think what you want of Hugo, but his experience has nothing to do with yours. It’s not a 0 sum game. It’s not like those women who were with him would have been with you instead had their “Jerk radar” functioned a bit better. You acknowledge that your hostility toward women is blatant, so I’m not sure how this 6th sense even comes into play.”
    It establishes that feminist dogma is incorrect, being a manipulative asshole is in no way a deterrent to getting laid. If it was true, then Hugo would still be a virgin.

    • I’m going to keep this short because you’re barely even reading what I wrote. Your responses don’t even address what I was saying, so I just have this to add:

      When writers have articles about how some men can’t find girlfriends, they aren’t talking about all men. It’s just some. There is no feminist article that says that ALL single men are single because they’re misogynists deep down and turn women off. Every girl can tell you that she’s come into contact with at least one Nice Guy, who was giving off very blatantly hostile vibes. But every girl can also probably think of a few really good guys that have just, for whatever reason, had bad luck in dating. No one is suggesting that there is ONLY ONE reason why a guy wouldn’t have a date. Similarly, there are articles that say that some women, after years of being alone, tend to give off needy vibes. They don’t say that ALL single women are needy. Articles like this are just an explanation of one of the many things that would hinder dating. They’re there as a “check yourself” to everyone. They don’t apply to every reader, or even most readers. They’re not suggesting that women can scout out all jerks and that this is the only reason why a person wouldn’t get a date.

      And, to be honest, I’m not sure why you’re so concerned about the Nice Guy thing. You’re not even a nice guy… you’re very clearly in the bad guy category. Your anger toward women is making it impossible for you to even have a rational conversation. I’m very sorry if you’ve been treated badly, but I had nothing to do with that. I wasn’t there, I’ve never talked to you in person, and I have no idea what you look like. If you want to think i’m guilty by association based solely on my gender, what can I say? There’s no talking sense to a person who has that strong of a prejudice.

  21. “I’m going to keep this short because you’re barely even reading what I wrote. Your responses don’t even address what I was saying, so I just have this to add:”

    I have read what you have written. I have responded.

    “When writers have articles about how some men can’t find girlfriends, they aren’t talking about all men. It’s just some. There is no feminist article that says that ALL single men are single because they’re misogynists deep down and turn women off.”
    This might be the case, but it is very well hidden. This is like saying that all you say about illegal immigrants doesn’t include all immigrants, but you never talk about any other kind of immigrant.

    “Every girl can tell you that she’s come into contact with at least one Nice Guy, who was giving off very blatantly hostile vibes. But every girl can also probably think of a few really good guys that have just, for whatever reason, had bad luck in dating. No one is suggesting that there is ONLY ONE reason why a guy wouldn’t have a date.”
    No, but the Nice Guy ™ is the topic that occupies 99% of the discussion.

    “Every girl can tell you that she’s come into contact with at least one Nice Guy, who was giving off very blatantly hostile vibes. But every girl can also probably think of a few really good guys that have just, for whatever reason, had bad luck in dating.”
    The problem is that Nice Guy can mean lots of things, I can agree with that it is morally wrong to use manipulation and false flag operations to try to get sex, but take as an example the guy who told the story of his female friend who got a new boyfriend. It hurt him so much that he couldn’t stand being around her anymore, this was labeled as Nice Guy.

    “No one is suggesting that there is ONLY ONE reason why a guy wouldn’t have a date. Similarly, there are articles that say that some women, after years of being alone, tend to give off needy vibes. They don’t say that ALL single women are needy. Articles like this are just an explanation of one of the many things that would hinder dating. ”
    Saying is one thing, doing is another. Where are the dating articles that don’t start and end in Nice Guy ™?

    “They’re there as a “check yourself” to everyone. They don’t apply to every reader, or even most readers.”
    Then maybe the authors should make that clearer in the articles.

    “They’re not suggesting that women can scout out all jerks and that this is the only reason why a person wouldn’t get a date.”
    When 99% of the articles discussing male dating problems are about the Nice Guy ™, it is very easy to get that impression.

    “And, to be honest, I’m not sure why you’re so concerned about the Nice Guy thing. You’re not even a nice guy… you’re very clearly in the bad guy category.”
    No, I am not a nice guy. I help people without any ulterior motive, because that is how I would like to be
    treated.
    I am even honest in my opinion that you reap what you sow.

    “Your anger toward women is making it impossible for you to even have a rational conversation. I’m very sorry if you’ve been treated badly, but I had nothing to do with that. I wasn’t there, I’ve never talked to you in person, and I have no idea what you look like.”

    Have you read what I have written? I have stated what I believe. That we live in a superficial world, but that this isn’t worse for women than it is for men, it is just the way it is.

    “If you want to think i’m guilty by association based solely on my gender, what can I say?”
    Have you tried to understand what I have been writing? That Hugo isn’t a person that has any moral authority on anything, and that he should atone himself before he starts preaching to everyone else.

    “There’s no talking sense to a person who has that strong of a prejudice.”
    How can I make the message clearer.
    1. Hugo is a hypocrite, he can’t both defend female right to preference, then tell men that it is wrong to be attracted to younger women, then marry a former model much younger than himself.
    2. Hugo should start atone what he has done before deciding what other people do.
    3. You can’t complain that it is unfair that you aren’t good looking if you at the same time subscribe to ruthless competition on the meat market.

  22. I love this website! It is so great to read articles by men about these issues. It made me realise how I have so often (and without realising) not taken similar articles written by women so seriously because I felt like ‘what is the point’ it is just a discussion amongst women and yes we all agree and yes we all do go through this but men just don’t understand or give a sh*t enough to read about it as well. But here are men actually writing these articles and it makes me feel like I am not just going to be called a feminist bra burner for feeling passionate about my frustrations as a young woman.

  23. I suppose I care about how my partner looks to other men, but it’s extremely low on my list of priorities. If I’m shallow, it’s in a different area. I care much more about whether I’m having great sex with a woman, much more than how she looks. I don’t understand being with a beautiful woman as the primary goal. I suppose some men think like that, but I just don’t get that. What’s the point of being with a woman who matches some particular visual image if your sex life is lousy?

    Then again, I don’t have buddies that I’m out to impress. I’m not out to impress my male friends with anything that I do, and I’d say we are definitely in the stereotypical “Guys” category. If I were to “show off” my partner for some reason, they would be more interested in whether my sex life was good. If I started dating an obvious “trophy,” they would likely LOSE respect for me.

  24. I have an uncle who married a woman who is by no means a beauty queen. She’s short, fat and dumpy and was always that way. I saw a picture of my uncle when he was younger and he was very handsome. Thing is, he didn’t care about her looks. Honestly, there are those who will always break whatever mold there is.

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