A respected writer asserts that men in power are liked and women are uniformly hated.
Let’s just stop and think about that.
My twitter feed is abuzz with comments on Jessica Valenti‘s article today in The Nation, “She Who Dies With the Most ‘Likes’ Wins?” The gist of the article is a feminist call to action that women stop trying to be liked so much, because it undermines their power, and accept the fact that their ambition may make them, by definition, unpopular. Ms. Valenti states: “When Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg gave a TED talk in 2010, one of the issues she talked about—and later expounded on in her 2011 commencement speech at Barnard—was likability. ‘Success and likability are positively correlated for men and negatively correlated for women,’ she said.”
She goes on, “the implications of likability are long-lasting and serious. Women adjust their behavior to be likable and as a result have less power in the world. And this desire to be liked and accepted goes beyond the boardroom—it’s an issue that comes up for women in their personal lives as well, especially as they become more opinionated and outspoken.”
I really try to stay away from these gender debates. Honest. And generally I feel like despite having founded The Good Men Project and been a passionate member of our community for four years now, I know very little about the essence of men (or women). But articles like Ms. Valenti’s and comments like Ms. Sandberg’s really stick in my craw because they seem to me to be moving the ball backwards down the field of gender enlightenment and equality rather than forward.
One of the things I have become crystal clear on, the hard way by running my mouth when in ways that caused a justified backlash, is that talking about gender in universal terms is problematic at best. There is something that theorists call gender “reductionism” that means that if you say that women are always X and men are always Y, any man who is not Y or woman who is not X will be left out of the sweeping generalization. Often this is used in reference to the way that sexism reduces women to a false stereotype. But I refuse to accept that it is a one way street. Both men and women come in a rainbow of shapes, colors, attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors. There’s no box big enough to hold them and say, that right there is a real MAN or WOMAN.
So let’s come back to this idea that women in some generalized way attempt to be liked at their own peril. I am perfectly willing to accept that we have a glass ceiling that we need to continue find ways to break. And that gender, racial, and sexual preference discrimination does still go on. But a flat comment like Ms. Valenti’s rallying cry:
“Women’s likability is something feminists use as proof of inequity—he’s a boss, she’s a bitch—but not something we’ve put on par with standard feminist fare like reproductive rights or pay inequality. Because there’s no policy you can create to make people like successful women. There’s no legislation to fight for or against, or even a cultural campaign that would make a dent in such a long standing double standard.”
…just doesn’t make sense to me. Do I view every woman in a position of power as a bitch? Do you? How is that possibly a fair comment to anyone who thinks carefully about what it means to lead effectively. I have had plenty of male bosses who were roving assholes who got none of my respect. I can think of ten women in power from Hilary Clinton to Indra Nooyi (CEO of Pepsi) who I like and respect. Hell, I think Mark Zuckerberg is a raving lunatic asshole who is out to take over the world. And for the most part I think the only good thing about Facebook is Sheryl Sandberg. She’s likable, tough, rational. She doesn’t walk around in flip-flops and pretend that the entire world is her inferior.
Towards the end of Valenti’s piece she quotes Sandberg again as saying that women need to “lean in.”
She was referring largely to professional ambitions, but I think it’s good advice all around. We need to lean in to who we really are—not who we think people would like most. We need to tell young women that not being liked, as hard as it may be, is often as sign that they’re doing something right.
I ask again, why is this a gender issue at all? Isn’t a core part of becoming an successful adult, and authentic human being, shedding what people might think of you and having the courage to take off down the path of “who we really are.”?
I’d appreciate your thoughts on this. As always that means not just men but women readers of the GMP. Whether I like you or not I will listen carefully. I promise.
###
Image of Indra Nooyi, CEO of Pepsi, by AP
As a female teacher I confront this issue daily. My most powerful ‘disciplinary’ tactic especially with boys is to be liked. This contrasts entirely with my male colleagues who have size, voice, and general physicality with which to create a sense of respect and control in the classroom. This becomes even more apparent when dealing with students I don’t teach (ie those I just encounter in the yard) who find it particularly easy to ignore and dismiss me but do not do the same thing to my male colleagues. I find that I need an existing relationship with the students… Read more »
In general, women want to be liked because that is a primal, female, savannah brain legacy. Like it or not, men still hunt and women still herd. Men form triangular hierarchies, women form circular groups. A woman’s greatest fear is exclusion from the group and her instinctive smile is her defence against this. It was ever thus and it always will be.
It’s an interesting and even contentious idea that all women have a proto-brain programmed by evolution and that it always ends up in Pointy triangular things. My response to that is Balls! I say balls because they are Three Dimensional and as soon as you step out of the mind limits needed to have a flat and two dimensional view of the universe that third dimension starts to make everything look like balls. Some of the balls may even come with a pointy bit (Just Look at the NFL), but I do find that no matter how flat some people… Read more »
Wellokaythen: I disagree. I think women being likable in and of itself holds a lot of power. For instance, when the layoffs come rolling through due to down-sizing a likable women may be spared whereas a man (likable or not) may be less likely to be spared. Women have a same gender preference, men do not. If anything men have a women-centered preference. So what you see is that both men and women would rather be waited on, or interact with women (men because with a man you may or may not have to deal with a macho ahole, and… Read more »
Another aspect that is missing from the assumptions made about powerful women being perceived as bitches, while powerful men are perceived as bosses, is that it relates only to direct business related activities and only to the activities in a “standard” business. A female boss placing her hand on a subordinate’s shoulder is showing concern. A male boss doing the same thing is a perv. Unless it’s been changed, the last time I looked, this was codified in the law, the reasonable woman and reasonable man standards. I’ve heard of female executives entering a professional male athletes locker rooms, but… Read more »
The obvious problem with Sandberg’s position is that maybe women in power are perceived as bitches because they act like bitches. Look at other areas where women are in positions of power. 50% of rape in adult prisons is staff on prisoner. 80% of that is female staff abusing male prisoners. In juvenile detention where the power dynamic is arguably greater, 95% of staff sexual misconduct is female staff abusing male detainees.
Men have never been taught how to handle victimization. Could it simply be that women as a group have never been taught how to handle power?
Some of the women bosses I’ve had have been the best. On the other hand, some may have been far more invested in what I’ll call “attitude adjustment” than male bosses. As someone who is really straightforward and analytical in management situations, I found this type of boss to be awful. I was fired by two of them for being “negative.” I believe that I was mainly being analytical. The last one was before I returned to grad school and became a professor. I had doubled the business for the hospital for which I was marketing director, right before I… Read more »
I think Valenti’s article does describe something that is still too common in the workplace. It’s overhyped and overgeneralized, as you rightly point out, but there’s still some basis in reality. I think about this a lot with some of my more difficult coworkers. Would I find this person as offensive if she were a man and not a woman? Honestly, I admit sometimes the answer is “no,” so I do have a double standard. But, many times the honest answer is ”yes,” this person is just offensive regardless of gender. What concerns me a lot is that fighting this… Read more »
At work, I want to be liked, and I want to be respected. AND, I do my best to follow my inner guidance and do what I think is right, even though it may cost me like and respect. On a good day, I have the stones to live like that. On a bad day, I’m a people-pleaser.
I think that 1> this concept of like and respect and success applies to everyone; and 2> it’s doubly true for women, who face a much tighter needle to thread of like and respect.
yeah to some extent David. I have been known to be pretty touch when it comes to work and negotiations. But I don’t go out of my way to be an ass for no other purpose than to throw my weight around. I try to tell the radical truth and negotiate hard for my POV without screwing around. My hope is that people on the other side of the table, and who work for me, see me as tough but fair. And therefore like that I have integrity. If they don’t see it that way I frankly don’t care. As… Read more »
Unfortunately, women often are not trained the way men are in the world. Just look at the image by Steven Bowler of his daughter’s “failed” homework assignment, an indication that people still think roles should be played based on gender. Women are still expected to fill motherly roles over managers-in-charge. Aside from gender bias, I can understand why people think of women as bitches more than as bosses. Many women allow their anxieties to rise to the surface and perpetuate bitchy impressions. But again, I think it’s a matter of women being thought of as “women” rather than managers. On… Read more »
Kiai wicked cool that you fix motorcycles. I will say as a dad who is more at home than not I will say that plenty of moms still look at my sideways (like what are YOU doing here) at pickup or some kid event. I don’t let it diminish my engagement with being a dad one bit.
I just find this so so strange that you’d get the sideeye. Is it a Boston thing? A status thing? A culture thing? Cause there are dads all over the schools at the ones my kids go to. And at swim team and etc etc etc. Mine included. Odd. I realize more and more how lucky I am to live how I’ve lived, where I’ve lived.
I’ve had good and bad bosses of both genders. I’d agree there’s some people out there who won’t respect a woman in power no matter what (or respect a man who isn’t in a position of power), but they’re definitely in the minority. Painting their sexism as being representative of the entire workforce isn’t helpful.
Well said Peter.
It’s fair to say that there are leaders who try to lead by being overly concerned with being popular and likeable. It’s something that both men and women do, though maybe women are more socialized to take this approach than men are. It’s a mistake that men and women both make, however.
“A respected writer asserts that men in power are liked and women are uniformly hated.” I’ve heard sentiments like that so any times – and the Powerful Women And lady Bosses are hated always makes my blood boil – especially when it’s women saying it. People do look perplexed when you point out that they have just made themselves part of the hating group, and they better explain 1) negative views of all women – their hatred as women of other women, or 2) why they keep using language about other people is such a negative way and have they… Read more »
eh, that people (men and women) react poorly to aggressive women is well documented and supported by science. It’s the generalization from a statistical increase into becoming a blanket fact that is troubling.
(for example – )
Sandler, Bernice R. “The Classroom Climate: Chilly for Women?” in Deneef, et al, editors, The Academic Handbook, Durham: Duke University Press, 1988, pages 146–152. A good overview of research on subtle subconscious bias, although it does not contain references.
http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/node7.html
Lynne any-time there is a gross generalisation being presented as a blanekt fact it is an issue – a bit like spontaneously generated stats which occur around 68.3% of the time!
It gets even worse if that pattern gets mixed up with some folks views on gender! Then you get multidimensional blanketing and factoidal drift … and it’s been documented it even bugger up the Giant Hadron Collider are CERN! P^)
For the average woman this is a bigger issue than for the average man. Mrs. Valenti would agree with you that being yourself, being assertive, and focusing on the fewwho love you over the many who might like you are important for both men and women. However there are more women who neglect this than men and this fact necessitates callouts specifically to women on these issues and an examination of the exact relationship between gender and ‘likeability’. I feel conflicted here. On one hand it is extremely important to avoid generalizing. On the other hand I seriously doubt that… Read more »
“that doesn’t mean that Tom Matlack is going to be aware of all the issues that affect women, or other people unlike himself, let alone their severity.” Amen to that. That’s why I really tried to make this post an open ended question rather than a conclusion. I also think that it’s important to look at individual behavior rather than trying to globalize when it comes to gender.
I will say that in general I have not noticed gender bias in the corporate or civic communities in which I operate. However, certain individual men have renewed my gratitude that I have had as little opposition as I have. I serve on a board of directors and requested financial information which I require to fulfill my role in the organization. The (male) treasurer suddenly insisted I go through him (instead of directly to the bookkeeper as I had been doing) and questioned why I needed the information even though he was well aware of my role in the organization… Read more »
I have. I have been on dozens of corporate boards over my career in VC and to be honest my experience is that getting financial information, like you, is crucial to doing my job. Generally the less well run, or successful, the organization the less forthcoming they are with the numbers. Or they present them in the most complex and un-intelligible manner possible to obscure the truth of their failure. I am not saying that you are not experiencing sexism. You very well might be. But you could also be experiencing someone protecting their incompetence too.
Because as far as I can tell there is a word that has not come up yet. A word that is freely flung around in even so called progressive spaces there use of the word bitch would be (rightly) questioned and challenged. A word that no one seems to be able to remember when talking about gender insults. A word that was only mentioned in passing even here at GMP about a year or so ago when talking about gendered insults. Dick. This word, it’s use, and it accepted use (like I say even people who would challenge use of… Read more »
Danny – I completely agree with this. And I think one of the things people don’t realize is a very basic truth – it is hard to lead. It is hard to be a boss. You have to tell people – tens of people, hundreds of people, thousands of people — what they need to do over and over and over again – very clearly and directly. And you have to do it when times are good and times are bad – under moments of stress and in moments when everyone has to work as a team, doing things they… Read more »
But I think that one of the gender differences that may be at play here is that women are taught they can complain about being called names, whereas men are taught to shut up when that happens. Anyone else think that might be the case? Most certainly. And even though women are taught that they can complain it is still a hard time for women that complain or call out these things. There are definitely gendered differences at work here and those gendered differences complicate things a lot. Those gendered differences are, IMO, the main reason that the people on… Read more »
Saying something is dickish or a dick is not the same level of insult. That’s like he won’t give me time off to go to the dentist or ate my lunch out of the fridge. Bitch implies incurable malevolence. Dick is not caring, Bitch is purposefully trying to hurt others. Dick is a one occasion thing. Bitch is a core personality trait.
I have no problem calling a man or woman a dick, but have an even higher bar for bitch than I would for slut, moron etc., which I also don’t use.
I have to disagree with that attempt at distinction. Even a man that asserts a strong position could be called a dick and it’s not just unquestioned by is actively defended because “women have it worse”. And besides bitch is often used in the very same terms as what you describe to be a dick. Both are heavily gender insults where jerkish behavior is associated with the person’s gender. But low and behold one is decried as horrible sexism and the other is actively defended. I have no problem calling a man or woman a dick, but have an even… Read more »
“Anyone else think that might be the case?”
YES x 1000. EVERTHING with regard to equality, gender issues, feminist/mra, even general health issues this happens. Men are so often told to shutup, man up, get over it whilst women do seem to be accepted and expected to complain about their issues (which isn’t good in some ways).
Dick has become gender neutral. I hear it applied to women as often as to men. However when you call a man a bitch, it’s an additional insult – he’s female as well! I would never tell a guy to man up, except jokingly, but I really can’t see this as an issue. MRAs are ignored because their math tends to be so bad and they are too often more interested in tearing down women’s accomplishments than helping men, not because we aren’t concerned about men. There are plenty of people fighting for equal access to children after a divorce,… Read more »
@ Lynne – Just a quick point – recognition of color blindness (12% of men, adjust your powerpoints accordingly) That one does tend to catch a lot of folk out – Color Blindness is not a gender/sex issue even if there is a gender bias caused by genetics. It is in fact a Disability Discrimination Issue and using it in the way you have is a false representation, false argument and even sexist. I would have thought after 22 years of the ADA and the same with UK/Euro based legislation some would have gotten past that oft repeated error… well… Read more »
Dick has become gender neutral. I hear it applied to women as often as to men. However when you call a man a bitch, it’s an additional insult – he’s female as well! But you don’t see the additional insult of attributing a woman’s horrible behavior with a set of genitals that she (more than likely) doesn’t have? It’s not that the peson is horrible it’s that they have a set of horrible genitals. Yeah…. MRAs are ignored because their math tends to be so bad and they are too often more interested in tearing down women’s accomplishments than helping… Read more »
@ Danny
Partially true at best. If that were the case then MRA wouldn’t be tossed at people who disagree with women and feminists. Yes there are MRAs that subscribe to what you describe here but it’s overblown to the point of generalization.
You gentleman you! Talk about being chivalrous!
I would never have phrased it that way – “overblown to the point of generalization.”? I would probably likened it to a stereotype taped to a nuclear depth charge. P^)
Bullshit, dick is heavily gendered towards men. A woman cheats? She’s a dick for doing so. Maybe you haven’t had the pleasure of being around such uses of the word but I have and being told the usage doesn’t exist is pretty insulting. “MRAs are ignored because their math tends to be so bad and they are too often more interested in tearing down women’s accomplishments than helping men, not because we aren’t concerned about men.” Where did that come from? I disagree with you again as most MRA actions I’ve seen are to helping men, unless you considered highly… Read more »
Archy – I have to agree with your research and findings in so many areas. But this is a thread about the Workplace and Workplace dynamics and you becoming worked up and frustrated – needing to explain in detail reminded me of an issue that has been glossed over. Work Place Bullying – on a European basis I have to say that the group who bullies most and is most likely to do it on none violent means is women. There is often an exploitation of being a woman and associated stereotypes. One of the defence strategies is to get… Read more »
Interesting, did I play into a trap?
Why you asking? I’m looking at the dimensions of feelings and language – or is that the feeling of language – or the language of feelings .. or maybe all 9 together ! P^)
Text is so two dimensional, and I never allow it to limit how multi dimensional I am.
This is perhaps going to come across as sexist, so I apologize in advance. But I think that one of the gender differences that may be at play here is that women are taught they can complain about being called names, whereas men are taught to shut up when that happens. Anyone else think that might be the case? I would go to an even more Subtle Level – they are taught how to react inspite of actual intent or feelings when certain words are used. I’ve seen people explode into faux paroxysms of indignation because a word was used,… Read more »
It just popped up on the GMP twitter feed (whoever runs it pulls from past articles from time to time).
https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/dicktionary/
Yeah gendered insults are bad, unless they are about men, males, or male parts. Then they might be okay to it’s worth debating and deciding on when it’s actually okay to make such insults….
There are bitches and there are bastards, to say pejoratives are the domain of woman alone is untrue. All we really have is our own anecdotal stories of bad bosses. Personally as a man I have found no statistical bias on this matter.
Women bosses by force of probability tend to be bosses in female dominated fields. Talking to women I find they prefer a male boss.
Having a female boss rules out some issues, but from personal experience, the best bosses I have had were male and the worst bosses I’ve had were male. Men may be more likely to help a woman out (in terms of mentoring etc.), but also more likely to have issues with you because of gender. They’re usually different men, so if you can rule out the latter…maybe.
Interesting… I’ve had the opposite experience. Best exec I worked for was a woman (amazing leader). Worst exec I worked for was a woman (stupid and arrogant make a bad mix). The men tended to group more narrowly.
Tom, thanks for bringing this subject up. This is what stuck with me most → “How is that possibly a fair comment to anyone who thinks carefully about what it means to lead effectively.” Exactly. I posted this on Facebook and had a long debate with people I’ve worked with over the years. A long-ago boss of mine said, “Talent doesn’t have a sex. And karma has a way of taking care of assholes.” Just about everyone agreed that gender differences are less pronounced than they used to be. Another colleague said “I think it’s gotten better. Or maybe as… Read more »
Indeed Lisa. Success to me is finding great people who enjoy working for you. Or, finding people who have the potential to be great and helping them achieve that greatness. Gender is nowhere in THAT conversation.
I’ll cite examples from my personal career as an engineer in the military-industrial complex. I had an 11+ year career starting at what was originally Hughes Missile Systems in Tucson, Arizona, and ending it at the same location but (after being bought by Raytheon) at Raytheon Missile Systems. When I started, our company president was Louise Francesconi. She was very well-liked by the employees, hourly and salaried alike. It was very common to run into her in the hallway, and she was always very pleasant and personable and friendly no matter if you were a vice president or and engineer… Read more »
Thanks Kirsten for those great examples.
There are plenty of male bosses who are called C****’s here in Australia, not everyone likes bosses. Men are EXPECTED more than women to be assholes in business, it’s not like men are given a free pass on this in my experience. Being in a position of power is going to give you flack no matter who you are, you’ll be a bitch or an asshole or just a c**** to some. Those who bring up this point, is it possible that they are reinforcing women by telling women that the stereotype is they should be nicer in business? Who… Read more »
Reminds me of those asking “Are men turned off by confident, outspoken women?”. My answer is no, but it’s not uncommon to see someone calling themselves confident, and outspoken but really they’re just an arrogant bitch. Is it possible many of these women are trying to be confident, think of themselves as such but are more likely to be coming across as combative, aggressive, condescending? If men have grown up around men who had more years of practice in that role then maybe women simply need to be paying attention to how the men speak or it may change as… Read more »
“My answer is no, but it’s not uncommon to see someone calling themselves confident, and outspoken but really they’re just an arrogant bitch. Is it possible many of these women are trying to be confident, think of themselves as such but are more likely to be coming across as combative, aggressive, condescending?” Hmm. Perhaps self-reporting or self-definition of “confident woman” is as unreliable as self-reporting of “nice guy.” Perhaps women can sometimes be as clueless in how they come across as men are. Crazy, radical thing to say, but a real possibility, don’t you think? Perhaps “ego” is not a… Read more »
Would it be possible to have warnings on posts like this, concerning the risk of laughter accompanied by involuntary urination?
Beware the “post hoc” fallacy. Just because the involuntary urination comes after the laughter does not mean it was caused by laughter.
Hmm. Perhaps self-reporting or self-definition of “confident woman” is as unreliable as self-reporting of “nice guy.” Perhaps women can sometimes be as clueless in how they come across as men are. Crazy, radical thing to say, but a real possibility, don’t you think? Hold on now. I know we are trying to have a major conversation and get everything out on the table but let’s not get crazy here. Next you’ll be saying that the sky is blue and clouds are white. No of course self reporting confident women really are confident, we men are just so intimidated by them… Read more »
Ironically, where I live the sky is rarely blue from November to June. More like the sky is gray and the clouds are gray. For me, the better analogy is saying water is wet…. : – )
I dig.
Indeed, and there’s no shortage of these ones claiming to be persecuted for being their usual “confident” self.
But then, id like to add – like blacks still ranting over 400 years of oppression, one cannot truly rule out the validity of their outcry. I am a man, and like with the civil rights movement, i don’t know what being hosed down feels like – so i respect Valenti’s article. With skepticism. None-the-less any noise is better than silence.
agree that noise is better than silence from any human being of any kind…
with any power comes disdain. In a workplace where power games rule the office, a woman causing such ruckus only says more about the man liking her less as an insecurity derived from his experience and social forces that condition his validation. This whole boss and bitch thing is ridiculous. This contempt towards woman is a much more psychological thing cultivated far before the man knows what a suit is.
Superb piece, Tom. I’m glad someone appointed the situation.
I don’t know AllyF even saying it’s relative rather than absolute is still making it a universal. My answer is I don’t judge bosses based on gender. I have seen women who were awesome and men who were awesome, men who were awful and women who were awful. Honestly in my business career it’s about getting shit done, not about judging whether their gender, sexual orientation, race or hair style. Individuals are individual, for good and bad.
You may not have this attitude, and most men may not either, but all it takes is one or two to cause an issue. Men or women.
Jerks are jerks. Female jerks are bitches and male jerks are assholes. So, I suppose, there is a gender difference.
…just doesn’t make sense to me. Do I view every woman in a position of power as a bitch? Do you? How is that possibly a fair comment to anyone who thinks carefully about what it means to lead effectively. Read more at https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hes-a-boss-shes-a-bitch/#CyFek8VW0qlwh74V.” You’re assuming that the effect JV describes needs to be absolute and binding. It doesn’t. At a social level, it only needs to be relative. Does she assume that every man and every woman thinks the same way about every man and every woman? I doubt it. All she requires is for the bar to be… Read more »
This old fashioned distinction is unfortunate. More unfortunate is that women rising in seniority feel that they have to act “the hard bitch” in order to gain respect. This is a retrograde step. “Bitches” don’t have the support of their peers or their teams and the “Bitch train” runs out of steam along the way.
My advice to women is “be yourself”. Show people what you are capable of, be candid, be honest, have integrity and intelligence. Respect comes naturally as a result.
Playing games and inauthenticity is the path to failure.
I honestly agree with everything you are saying Scarlet and think it applies equally to men.
I agree with everything you said. However, I think the issue is what behaviour deems a woman a bitch. In my personal experience if I am agressive, or making an unpopular decision that is enough to deserve that label. I understand that this is a personal experience but I have seen it play out in a lot of different ways in my company.
In my personal experience if I am agressive, or making an unpopular decision that is enough to deserve that label.”
I’d say men too get the similar treatment, cept they’re usually called an asshole, C***, dick, etc.
@Ann – Not being picky – but I do think this needs clarification:
In my personal experience if I am agressive, or making an unpopular decision that is enough to **deserve** that label.
Now, if you feel you truly deserve the label, it’s a choice I may disagree with but hey it’s a free world – but I actually hope you meant “receive” as in “be given”.
I’ve also been shocked at what men object to. When a guy did the exact same thing in the exact same way, no one noticed. When I do it, they’re outraged. Some guys have a thin skin for female authority and accomplishment.
Wow Tom, this one should get a big discussion going. Having worked my way up through the ranks in the corporate world, something that I observed, though several years ago, is that it appeared women changed as they moved up in ranks. What I mean by that is that at least in my world, they became harder and colder. It bothered me because they appeared to believe that they had to be someone different but in reality, it was who they were that got them to where they are. Am I making any sense here? Yeah, with a more demanding… Read more »
Interesting point about whether or not women have an issue with women bosses. This part of you comment just made me want to puke. So sad. “Three years later we were advised that 5 of her employees stayed late and beat the crap out of her.”
I think women absolutely take issue with women bosses. I have watched it happen, a person who worked with us got promoted and slowly but surely the other women we worked with started finding reasons not to like her. They started to exclude her, they would talk about her to the other managers behind her back. Some eventually got to where they would disrespect her directly to her face at times. I left about 3 months after she got promoted, and in that short amount of time she went from being a part of the “group” to being a complete… Read more »
When friends suddenly become bosses, most of this tends to happen irrespective of gender. Working in a largely co-ed industry, I have never seen this happen and instead I’d say women tend to work more closely with female bosses and the problem is more with reports coming to them for help more often than they would with a male.
This would never happen with a horrid male boss. This sounds like they couldn’t stand taking orders from a woman.
Actually – In house corporate violence is rare – and if it does happen more likely to be targeted at men.
The very mention of a group acting in violence has my antenna twitching, cos group reaction requires co-ordination and co-ordination requires leadership – and when that happens with the reported outcomes in an employment setting It screams Bully and Corporate Psychopath.
Of course both men and women are equally capable of being on either side of the divide – and also being manipulated in and around the dynamics.