Dr. NerdLove discusses the number one quality women find attractive in a man, and offers tips for how to increase that factor in your life.
Men spend a lot of time worrying about being more attractive to women. Men tend to feel as though they’re at a disadvantage when it comes to dating and consistently look for the magic bullet that will maximize their efforts. Because of the pervasive belief that sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive – the idea that women grant sexual access only to those who offer the best “value” – they tend to focus on the most obvious aspects of what supposedly makes men attractive: looks and material wealth, with “status” following third.
The problem is that they’re working on the wrong areas and a misunderstanding of just what makes somebody appealing to women. Yeah, good looks can help – nobody denies that being gorgeous doesn’t have an impact on one’s life – but not only is it not the only thing that counts… more often than not it’s not even in the top 5 of what makes a man attractive.
More than looks, more than money, more than whatever nebulous definition you want to give to “value” or “status”, the most attractive aspect of a man, that x-factor that nets him attention, attraction and dates is…
…fun.
Wait, WHAT?
Over the years as I was trying to make my transition from “dateless loser” to “ladies man”, I got to know a wide variety of folks who were good with women. Some were blessed with every advantage – classic good looks, money and charm – while others had to work for their success. And yet there were a few people in my social circle who could – to put it charitably – punch well outside of their apparent weight class. They were not classically handsome – in fact, many of them were fat and balding. They weren’t “high-status males” with impressive jobs or flashy cars and fancy clothes. They didn’t have useful contacts for the social climbers or the money for those supposedly hypergamous women looking for the next level. They were strictly average dudes… who still managed to date sexy, intelligent, ambitious women.
Their secret was very simple: they were fun to hang around with. If you talked to them, then you were going to enjoy yourself. They knew how to make people feel good. They were genuine interesting people with stories to share and a genuine interest in getting to know the people they talked to. They made friends wherever they went. The bouncers, the bartenders, the waitstaff… they all loved these guys within minutes of meeting them. Everybody knew who they were. Everybody wanted to hang out with them.
Small wonder that they were so consistently successful.
The fact that they were fun to be with was all it took to flip those attraction switches. Being fun, being able to help someone enjoy themselves transcended looks and status. It gave them a notable, long-term advantage over the guys who were all surface and flash, the ones who only had a handful of tricks and routines to rely on and the ones who got by on social pressure and status games.
It took me a while to appreciate just what they had but once I understood, it was like a new world opened up to me. I began to see just how integral being fun was to a successful dating life… and I started to understand how to integrate it into my approach towards women.
“What Do You See In That Guy?” “He Makes Me Laugh”.
It’s a very simple premise: we instinctively like people who make us feel good. The better they make us feel, the more we like them.
It’s known as the Reward Theory of Attraction—we are attracted to people whose presence or behavior makes us feel appreciated and liked. When the feeling of pleasure at a person’s involvement in our lives outweighs the costs (someone who’s fun to hang around with but who causes problems through his behavior, for example) then we tend to be drawn towards that relationship over others. The brain increases dopamine and norepinephirine, which regulates the brain’s pleasure and reward centers. We associate the pleasure with the person and thus want to spend more time in their presence.
This is part of why a sense of humor ranks so highly in every poll about what makes men attractive. Laughter produces endorphins that go straight to the pleasure centers of your brain and relieves physical tension and stress in the muscles making you feel more relaxed. Making you feel good triggers the instincts that tell us that these are people we should like and enforce that feeling with a shot of dopamine.
Many geeks and outcasts learned in high-school that being funny as a means of self-defense; making people laugh helped keep you from getting your ass kicked. Who knew that one day you could turn it around and use those same skills as a part of a way of getting dates?
However, as much as making people feel good makes them like us, there’s more to it.
Someone who is fun tends to be more confident in themselves – after all, it’s hard to be fun when you’re too worried about looking silly or acting childish. Fun people are also positive; excessively negative people suck the energy out of the room and kill the mood while positive people help generate energy. Fun people make others feel comfortable and have a better grasp on how to read people’s signs and moods and can adjust themselves as needed. This makes the difference between someone who’s fun and someone who’s just a clown: fun people can find the line and know when things are appropriate or not while a clown tends to blunder on regardless of mood or intent. Fun people are interesting – they tend to have diverse interests that they enjoy and have stories to share.
Fun as Dating Strategy
This isn’t to say that it’s just a matter of telling a few jokes until you manage to laugh them into bed.
Being fun is a holistic part of dating and attraction—it influences everything about what makes someone attractive.
Once I understood the appeal of fun, I began to recognize how it formed the underpinnings of everything I’d learned up to that point—and how much I had seen it in action over the years. My friend Miles—he who attracts women the way cheese attracts mice—was successful not just because he looked like the bastard son of Hugh Grant and Rob Lowe but because he knew how to be fun. He was naturally outgoing and positive and instinctively understood how to make people feel good, how to feel special. He was a genuinely nice guy who liked to tease and play around with everyone—especially the girls he was attracted to – and they would respond with great enthusiasm.
Take bantering and antagonistic flirting, for example. I enjoy bantering as a means of flirting because it meshes with my personality and it’s a method of screening for the type of women I am most attracted to. I get a charge from sharp women who enjoy that sort of witty duel-by-wordplay. When done properly, it’s a game of verbal sparring back and forth, matching wits and humor with gentle ribbing and sexually charged teasing… and it’s insanely fun for everyone involved.
…yeah, kind of like that.
Being fun and helping others have fun is a way of keeping dates and potential relationship partners engaged and invested in the relationship. It’s a vital part of the chemistry that helps ensure that not only will she enjoy the first date but that she’ll be interested in coming back for a second… and even a third date. The worst dates aren’t the ones that go badly but the ones that are utterly unremarkable. A bad date can be salvaged after all; a boring date just drains the life out of everyone involved.
Even building sexual tension involves understanding fun. Proper, deliberate sexual tension is like a roller-coaster ride: the deliberate slow build-up of anticipation at the very beginning cresting at the absolute height of almost unbearable frustration and the sudden thrill of the release at juuuuust the right moment. Even little tricks like the “almost-kiss” are built on the idea of fun; it’s unselfconsciously, deliberately cheesy… and yet when delivered properly, it’s silliness is a significant part of it’s appeal. You’re playing a naughty game like a pair of horny teenagers, seeing just how far you can push things before one or both of you simply can’t stand it any longer.
The more that you can bring a sense of fun into your dating life, the more success you will have.
Fun As Social Proof
Much is made about the concept of social proof: the idea that the behavior of others is a model for how one should act. In a social context, a person with social proof—say, a crowd of people around him has been vetted by others; people are responding positively to him, therefore he is someone others should want to get to know and pay attention to. It generates something known as the halo effect—where positive aspects of a person influence others into assuming more positive aspects about them. People like this person, therefor he must be cool.
Pick-up artists often try to manipulate social proof as a way of establishing to others that they’re cool or desirable. This is often managed by trying to be surrounded by attractive women; the effect is to say “These beautiful people find me compelling; clearly they know something you don’t, so you should find me compelling.”
And yet being fun is a simpler and more organic way of generating social proof—without having to rely on status games or trickery. To be fun is to bring legitimate value to an interaction rather than trying to leverage social contracts and often coercive tactics.
Think of it in terms of a party. There’s always those people who are seen as being the life of the party, who tend to have many people hanging around them. These are often (but not always) the most fun people. When people see others hanging around and wanting your attention, others – like that cute brunette you’ve had your eyes on—will naturally gravitate towards you. The fact that others view you as someone to spend time with will help invoke that halo effect that will make you shine even more in other’s eyes.
Even if you’re on the introverted side of the personality spectrum, you can make fun-as-social-proof work for you; it’s a matter of establishing a reputation as much as it is about being seen in the “proper” light. Introverts often work best in one-on-one situations and so can take advantage of the situation by having interesting, intense conversations. Being fun isn’t just about being the entertainer, it’s about how you make others feel.
How To Be Fun
The most obvious way of being fun is to be funny; after all, the appeal of a man with a sense of humor is nearly universal. However, not everybody is going to be a laugh riot, nor is it the only way to be fun.
So what are some other ways of bringing more fun into your dating life?
Pick Offbeat Dates
Everybody’s done dinner and a movie; you want to stand out by taking your date somewhere different. If you can’t be funny yourself, you can always borrow somebody else’s sense of humor for the night and take her to a comedy club or improv performance. If you’re dating a foodie, try signing up for a couple’s cooking class or a wine tasting. You want something different than what she’s used to—novelty helps produce dopamine in the brain, after all.
Explore Your Passions
It can’t be said enough: a person who explores and pursues their passions in life and can communicate them to others are people who are interesting. So many people live day-to-day humdrum lives of boring routines; having passion makes you stand out. It’s an attractive trait, one that women adore because people who are passionate have drive and intensity. They have taken charge of their lives and their enthusiasm carries others along… and that is incredibly fun.
Embrace Your Competitive Side
There’s nothing quite like a little rivalry to liven things up. The playful smack-talk, the tension when scores are tied, the thrill of victory… these get your hearts pumping, the juices flowing and the senses come alive. Few things are quite as fun – or arousing – as a friendly competition. Bowling, laser tag, mini-golf, go-kart racing, pool… as long as there’s a contest for winner and loser, you’re likely to have fun.
Master The Art of Conversation
The old adage is true: interested is interesting. We love nothing more than a chance to talk about ourselves to an audience that really gets us and wants to know more. All too often we don’t encounter people who actually want to converse so much as people who are waiting for their turn to talk. Being a master conversationalist and utilizing active listening can lead to long, deep and in-depth discussions about life, the universe and everything… and make you both feel as though you’ve known each other for years instead of hours.
Collect Stories
Just as few people have passion in their lives, few people are interested in finding new experiences. Sometimes it’s worth going out and doing things just because you know there will be a story involved at the end. Take some chances and try things you’ve never done before… and build that bond between the two of you by experiencing them together. Whether it’s exploring your city without a map or a plan and just letting whim guide you, signing up for a beginner’s line-dancing session, going geocaching or even an impromptu picnic out under a blanket of shooting stars, you should make a point of finding exciting new opportunities for escapades and exploits. Sharing these new and awesome adventures will be more fun than you could ever imagine… and bring you closer together than you ever dreamed.
Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove
More from Harris O’Malley
Photo: Flickr/natalie419
About Harris O'Malley
“And yet there were a few people in my social circle who could – to put it charitably – punch well outside of their apparent weight class. They were not classically handsome – in fact, many of them were fat and balding. They weren’t “high-status males” with impressive jobs or flashy cars and fancy clothes. They didn’t have useful contacts for the social climbers or the money for those supposedly hypergamous women looking for the next level. They were strictly average dudes… who still managed to date sexy, intelligent, ambitious women.”
So let me get this right Dr. Nerd Love, you want to give hope to “average” dudes to date, not other “average” women but those ellusive-prized “sexy, intelligent, ambitious women” that all men desire.
Look, I agree with the premise of your article. I agree that humor can be a catalyst for attraction for women within men. (Although I don’t think it is as much as a catalyst for men within women.) But I’m really tired of advice for men that is about the “average” man getting “sexy, intelligent, ambitious”..basically fabulous babe types. So men can continue to be completely “average” but women must be this super combination of beauty and intellect that even “average” guys can get. Maybe we should stop encouraging men that being “average” is so great to begin with. Maybe the reason men are struggling sometimes with their identities is because we tell guys that being “average” is good enough. (By the way, I understand the way the world defines “average”. But I am not saying that by working on not being “non-average” you need to have tons of money or be famous.)
Erin.
If I, as a guy, have to do all the heavy lifting to get a relationship going why shouldn’t I go for the people that I find most attractive?
Maybe heavy lifting is not really necessary, but I think you gotta take care of your appearance. Dress nice, groom nice. After all most men who got into serious heavy lifting and bodybuilding usually not doing it for women. Its our passion.
And although the truth is, attractive people usually are people who born with attractive features on their faces. Unless you want to use makeups, you wont change that. Thats why many women rely heavily on makeups, they know how it can really change the game.
Nistan, I understand that men have a lot to contend with in the dating world. I believe that men certainly have more pressure in dealing with the initial approach. But I don’t believe that just because there is a difference in expectations between men approaching women vs women approaching men, that means that only men do the “heavy lifting” to get a relationship.
Men and women BOTH most contend with a lot of factors when it comes to dating.
Men and women BOTH understand that dating is rarely easy for either side.
Men and women BOTH have unqiue pressures they face that sometimes reaslitically and unfairly come easier to the other gender.
Men and women BOTH have to work on aspects of themselves to sometimes twist themselves into who the other gender may want them to be.
Please don’t assume that dating is this easy process for women where we all just sit back and enjoy the ride. Dating for me has been difficult, disappointing, filled with some hard life lessons and hardships. I’ve had to work hard in the dating world. I’ve had to work hard on myself to be a better partner. It has not come easy for me. So I totally reject your idea that it’s mean that have to do the heavy lifting simply because there are aspects of dating that come easier to women and other aspects of dating that come easier to men.
I am really tired of “average” guys being told how wonderful they are in their averageness while being given advice about how to score these amazing babe types. Maybe men instead should be learning how to like themselves and respect themselves and maybe then men will be able to appreciate the qualities in women that fit outside the stereotypes about women having to maintain intelligence, beauty and whatever fabulous quality she is suppose to posses while he maintains his averageness.
Here is what I would assert. It is harder for a man to get someone in his league than it is for a woman to get someone in their league. This is fair to a point because(most) men are less selective for certain biological and social reasons:
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/08/women-get-to-play-out-of-their-league.html
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/10/upper-hand-in-relationships.html
Sure Erin, both genders have a lot of difficulties in dating. But their severity are not the same.
Did you know that Guys can be wooed? I met girls that aren’t that hot that have charmed me.
You know what they often have in common? Most where bi or lesbians. Meaning they knew how to be charming and ACTIVE .
This is the biggest difference between the sexes. Most hetero women are stuck on NEUTRAL. (Even your initial post was about how average men don’t notice average women Erin.) And what that does is that most women don’t try to be interesting.
I, as a guy, usually have to be in a relationship before I really get to know her. If that’s so, why shouldn’t I go for the hot one? Same amount of risk in the end. This phenomenon is not my problem, as a guy. This is primarily a women’s issue. Be more ACTIVE. Both mentally and in your action and guys will mellow out.
Nistan, instead of asking: “Did you know that guys can be wooed”, perhaps next time try: “Do you woo men?”
The first question has a pre-mediated idea in place about what you’ve hypothesized about me. The second question is more objective and direct. I felt that your first question was condescending. But I will answer it anyway because I have my own insights to offer.
I am aware that guys can be wooed/charmed. However, usually the things used to “woo” men are not the same exact things used to “woo” women. I don’t interact with my female friends the same way I interact with my boyfriends. I don’t want to have to interact with my boyfriends the same way I interact with females! If I did, then I would infact probably date women. While I think that the world is more gender progressive then ever before, and that is over-all a positive thing, the inherent reason I am attracted to men is because they are different from me, not the same.
Just because I do not approach men aggressively, does not mean I don’t know what it takes to charm or woo a man. Just because my approach is more subtle, doesn’t mean that I am being passive or not doing my own kind of wooing. Approaching someone does make you active. However, being the person getting approached doesn’t necessarily make that person passive. It’s a dance that requires two to work…or two not to work. Both have a role they are playing and participating in.
Often I see men make suggestions to women about how to be more like men. Instead of respecting and valuing the way women are and do things different from men. So no, this isn’t just a female problem. This is a relational problem between men and women. This is not primarily a woman’s issue. It’s both our issues because how the genders choose to interact with each other is always connected and will always have certain reactions. I don’t even really believe you believe this is just a woman’s issue. I don’t think you would have commented on it if you really believe that.
You brought up your experience with bi or lesbian women. It sounds like you want to be charmed and pursued by women in the way women would stereotypically be charmed and pursued by men. And that’s fine! It’s fantastic actually because it’s great to know yourself well enough to know what kind of relationship you want and desire. To know what works for you. However, that recipe is not going to fit everyone.
What I see between you and also from Bay Area Guy’s comments is that you feel entitled in a way. Simply because you made the initial approach. You are obviously free to approach who you want. But your focus on “hot” women exclusively gives me even more reason to not to talk to men that don’t want to talk to me.
Entitlement isn’t an attractive trait and it actually makes me less inclined to want to do as you suggest. What you’ve taught me is that if a man finds me attractive, he will approach me. And if he doesn’t, he won’t. Women are told all day long how visual men are and how much men need to be attracted to their partner. I believe that women are more flexible in their physical attraction of men then men are on their physical attraction of women.
I don’t want to be stuck in a relationship with a man that liked me because I was sweet and funny and because I approached him and made it easy for him but then spends the rest of his time while we are out ogling other hot women that he actually would have approached or looking at online porn. So women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
But weather a woman approaches or not, doesn’t mean you are entitled to super hot women just because you approach. And your focus on approaching the hottest women is exactly the reason more women don’t put themselves out there. If men do not show a diversity of interest in women, in their looks, or outside their looks, men give very little reason for women to be participants in a game they can’t win.
Lastly, I am bothered by your comments that women mearly have to be more active and a guy will mellow out. First it insinuate that how women choose to act isn’t already active just because it’s not the way a man would act. Second, it suggests that women are the ones that are not only responsible for their own choices (as they should be) but they are also responsible for how men act. You are basically saying if women do “A” then men will do “B”. I guess I just find that completely unattractive. I don’t want to be responsible for how men act..if men “mellow out”. I want a man who takes pride in being responsible for his own actions and acts a certain way without me having to prompt him out of it.
All in all though, I am tired of hearing advice given to “average” men about how they can get “smart, beautiful, sexy..” super women. How about we all begin to see each other outside the context of terms like “average”, “smart”, “beautiful” and “sexy”. Not that it’s bad to be attracted to these qualities or posses them..not at all..but maybe we need to stop putting a price tag of worth on them. Maybe it’s time to stop telling men that all they need to be is “average” to score the “prize”. Maybe we need to stop telling men that the prize in women is her looks and not instead her heart.
“Just because I do not approach men aggressively, does not mean I don’t know what it takes to charm or woo a man. Just because my approach is more subtle, doesn’t mean that I am being passive or not doing my own kind of wooing. ”
What do you do exactly?
“Often I see men make suggestions to women about how to be more like men. Instead of respecting and valuing the way women are and do things different from men.”
Some believe that how “men do things” and “women do things” are largely arbitrary and socially constructed, you seem to believe there’s an inherent difference rooted in their psychological/biological natures or something.
“I don’t want to be stuck in a relationship with a man that liked me because I was sweet and funny and because I approached him and made it easy for him but then spends the rest of his time while we are out ogling other hot women that he actually would have approached or looking at online porn. So women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.”
actually I agree with some of you said. But this paragraph is wrong. Again, you always generalize men and think men as a stereotyped gender. You are the type of feminist that very proud of your feminine nature, so much that you think feminine is the unique traits of women, that men cannot and should not act like that. Now take a look at another paragraph at your comment
“Just because I do not approach men aggressively, does not mean I don’t know what it takes to charm or woo a man. Just because my approach is more subtle, doesn’t mean that I am being passive or not doing my own kind of wooing. Approaching someone does make you active. However, being the person getting approached doesn’t necessarily make that person passive. It’s a dance that requires two to work…or two not to work. Both have a role they are playing and participating in.”
This, you already said it. That because you dont approach men aggressively, does not mean you are passive and you dont know what it takes to charm a women. And then you said, if a man being appraoched by woman, he only accept it because its easy for him. And then he will ogle at other women and looking at online porn. Thats so wrong it disgusted me. Just because I want to be approached by women, does not mean I being passive. Doesnt mean I dont know how to “woo” and charm a women. Doesnt mean I dont like her, doesnt mean I dont fall in love with her. Doesnt mean I would ogling at another women. I take a different role then majority of men. Doesnt mean I want to act like a women. Doesnt mean I want to take your “feminine and womanly” role and “nature” of women. Doesnt mean I’m not a man, just because I dont act aggressive at woman I like, just because I act more subtle, using my charm to attract her, to approach me.
You know Erin, how to act more subtle to charm the opposite sex, to want to feel desired, wanted, even lusted, is not women role. Just because I want to do it doesnt mean I want to be like women. Doesn’t mean I dont really like and love women I try to attract with my subtle ways, and then I’m going to spend my life ogling at another women and porn. Doesnt mean I only try to attract super sexy and hot women. Doesnt mean I only care about women looks. I usually agree with some of your post, but to be honest, sometimes you act like you know all the things about men and then generalized all men it makes me annoyed.
John, I know that my opinions of men are not always pretty. I do generalize. But that doesn’t mean I don’t know that other types of men exist. I speak from my experiences. So it’s impossible for you tell me I’m “wrong”. Look, I understand why you and people generally don’t like generalizations. But you argue about my generalizations when you made a generalization of me. Have you ever seen me call myself a feminist? To be honest, I don’t even know what that word means anymore because it’s been abused so much in conversation. Maybe I am one, maybe I’m not. I don’t really know because everyone seems to have a different idea bout what Feminism is exactly. But I think I get the honor of giving myself that label if I want it, when I want it, based on how I define it for myself. And since I haven’t yet defined myself that way, you’re comment about It’s getting really old how often I seen this word thrown around to subjugate people into categories. I’m a human being. I’m a woman. These are the words I identify with. These are the words that more accurately represent where my words come from then being labeled a “feminist” would. You talk about stereotypes but clearly by your response, you have a few stereotypes of your own about others.
It has largely been my experience that men are very visually focused. I’ve been told this message time and time again from men themselves. It is not rare for men to look at pornography. And it is not rare for men themselves to justify looking at porn because of visual desire. Maybe these do not apply to you, and you are free to point that out. But this has been my experience with men. I am not saying other people don’t exist outside of this. All I am saying is that I have largely been told, often by other men, about how important looks and physical attraction are to them. If looks and physical attraction are important to men, which is largely what most men in my life have told me, why wouldn’t I want to be with a man that thought I was physically attractive enough to approach me? Does this mean I’m saying men don’t like other qualities? Of course not. But I find that men focus a lot on the physical.
And no, I do not think that being feminine is a trait unique to women. But I, as a feminine woman, I strongly identify with feminine characteristics. I like some aspects of traditional gender roles with some evolution of those roles modernized. This does not make me a hypocrite or unbelieving that feminine and masculine traits can exist positively in non-stereotypical gender roles. It just means that I speak from a place that pertains to *me*. Just as you speak from a place that pertains to *you*. I think we can learn from each other.
“This, you already said it. That because you dont approach men aggressively, does not mean you are passive and you dont know what it takes to charm a women. And then you said, if a man being appraoched by woman, he only accept it because its easy for him. And then he will ogle at other women and looking at online porn. Thats so wrong it disgusted me. Just because I want to be approached by women, does not mean I being passive. Doesnt mean I dont know how to “woo” and charm a women. Doesnt mean I dont like her, doesnt mean I dont fall in love with her. Doesnt mean I would ogling at another women.”
I actually never said that just because you don’t approach women, that it would make you passive or that you wouldn’t know how to “woo” a woman. I do think that men live in a tough world where there are many images of women cultivated to appeal to their hormones surrounding them and I do tend to find from my own experiences and conversations with other women, that sometimes their man’s wandering eye is troublesome.
Based on what Nistan is saying, he is basically saying since he is the one doing the approaching, he is going to pick the most beautiful women to approach. This is really another round-about-way of re-enforcing stereotypes about men’s visual desires. If men are approaching women for only their looks, if men continue to tell me how important a woman’s physical looks are, why shouldn’t I infact beliee it?
So logic ensues that if a man is not approaching me, he does not find me beautiful enough to approach. If Nistan is picking the most beautiful women to approach, why would I try to get in the way of his true desires? His true desires being those really beautiful women.
I’ve been told pretty much my entire life from men and women alike, how visual men are. How much the visual matters to them. Men will talk very often about how sexy Megan Fox is but they won’t talk about how they admire Diane Sawyer (just an example). Do men not care about other thing? Of course they do, but when you are told over and over again, usually largely from other men, about how much a woman’s physical looks matter, when you hear men talk about Kate Upton and her beauty before anything else, and then you hear Nistan talk about approaching only the most beautiful of women, it’s not exactly motivation to get out there and approach men as a regular woman.
“I take a different role then majority of men. Doesnt mean I want to act like a women. Doesnt mean I want to take your “feminine and womanly” role and “nature” of women. Doesnt mean I’m not a man, just because I dont act aggressive at woman I like, just because I act more subtle, using my charm to attract her, to approach me.”
I can totally understand that and I like how you explained it.
“You know Erin, how to act more subtle to charm the opposite sex, to want to feel desired, wanted, even lusted, is not women role. “
I do not think wanting to feel sexy is a woman’s role. And I never said that it was.
“Just because I want to do it doesnt mean I want to be like women. Doesn’t mean I dont really like and love women I try to attract with my subtle ways, and then I’m going to spend my life ogling at another women and porn.”
What kind of things do you do to attract women in subtle ways? I’m very interested in this.
“Doesnt mean I only try to attract super sexy and hot women. Doesnt mean I only care about women looks. I usually agree with some of your post, but to be honest, sometimes you act like you know all the things about men and then generalized all men it makes me annoyed.”
I do have a tendency to use generalizations. And while I can understand why they sometimes annoy you as a man, it’s not really my intent to do. I also tend to look at generalizations differently then others. Sometimes I believe generalizations are important in talking about big issues that affect a certain population. It doesn’t mean that I don’t understand other equations exist outside of what I talk about though or that I am saying other equations are “wrong”. I actually think that most of us make generalizations and I tend to find that both genders are ready to make them about the other but take heart when they are made about their own gender. Although, myself, I am fine with generalizations being made if they have broad appeal.
I don’t want to be stuck in a relationship with a man that liked me because I was sweet and funny and because I approached him and made it easy for him but then spends the rest of his time while we are out ogling other hot women that he actually would have approached or looking at online porn.
But you want men to be perfectly ok with having to be the ones to approach women; make it easy for them; be liked for being sweet and funny; instead of actually being desired, lusted, longed for and chased after ?
Are you even aware of your hypocrisy?
I don’t agree with you that I am hypocritical. That’s your opinion of me but not my opinion of myself.
I do think men like feeling desired. I also think that what women sometimes stereotypically want to feel desired can be different from how men stereotypically sometimes want to be desired.
I will use a pretty obvious example: strip clubs. Male and female strip clubs are not mirror images of each other. There are significant elements that make these two establishments different. There is a much larger quantity of strip clubs with female dancers then there are strip clubs with male dancers for a reason. None of this has to do with political correctness, it’s human sexuality at it’s most base nature.
I think alot of men rather watch a beautiful woman dance then be the ones on stage doing the dancing. I think that more women would feel beautiful from being the one dancing and showing off her stuff then being the one on the floor stuffing dollar bills down a man’s g-string.
Of course there are men and women that don’t fit inside that. There are men that enjoy being on stage and there are women that enjoy watching. But largely speaking, strip clubs with female exotic dancers exist at such a higher level because there is more of a demand for it then the reverse.
Do I think this means that men don’t want to be desire? Not at all. I just think that sometimes the way men and women experience how they want to be desired can be different.
“Do I think this means that men don’t want to be desire? Not at all. I just think that sometimes the way men and women experience how they want to be desired can be different.”
I don’t understand what the difference is. As a guy, I want to feel desired exactly like stereotypical women want to feel desired. I want my gf find me physically attractive and sexy, not just funny and confident. Maybe I’m just a minority? But looking at how many young guys go to gym nowadays, I do feel deep down every man want their wife/gf find them physically attractive. If not, no men would go to gym. Almost all men , especially young boys go to gym for women.
Erin
I am sick of women like you who like to tell men that we enjoy being the pursuers and prefer to be wanted/desired for other qualities rather than looks.
Have you ever considered the possibility that men supplement themselves with other qualities; bring other things to the table; and be the initiators and pursuers because they don’t have an option? Because they know they wont be valued by women for their looks and bodies?
Men are humans too and have no lesser need to feel desired and validated. The validation one gets from being desired for physical beauty is far superior than the validation one gets from being valued for one’s usefulness. Being wanted/desired for physical beauty gives you a validation and sense of fulfillment like no other. Too bad most men never experience that.
If given an option between being wanted/desired for ones physical beauty AND being desired for one’s usefulness or ability to make others laugh; I can assure you most men would prefer the former. Because Most men can see that men who are very good looking, handsome and sexy get the amount of attention, interest and affection from women that is unparalleled.
*****
Let me break this novel concept to you that will take some time to get around your head.
Its not that women are less visual than men……
Its just that women are much more SELECTIVE in their visual-ness.
its just that the looks and bodies of the vast majority of men do nothing for most women.
Its just that the threshold of physical attractiveness required by women is higher…such that the vast majority of men fall below it.
Its just that unless a man has the face of Adonis and the body of a Greek god; women can’t sexualize, objectify and lust after men; and cant find their bodies as delicious and irresistible as vice versa.
Its just that unless a man is really really good looking, women cannot base attraction on looks alone.
Its not that there is some elusive pressure on women that stops them from approaching men and being the pursuers…….
ITS JUST THAT WOMEN FIND FEWER MEN ATTRACTIVE / DESIRABLE / HOT ENOUGH TO BE PURSUED.
Ask any great looking guy and he will tell you tales to tell you of women pursuing him…. Breaking the goddamn convention of “men are supposed to be the pursuers”
Tim, I never said that men enjoy being the pursuers or prefer to be wanted or desired for other qualities rather than their looks! But it’s ironic isn’t it that women want to be wanted for their internal qualities more and men want to be desired for their external ones. Maybe that tells us something about how men and women relate to each other. I suspect that the reason you are so desiring of experience a woman’s attraction to your physical body because of the rariety where you receive that attention. I suspect the true is same for women who are often objectified for their bodies and not appreciated for their other qualities as much.
“Let me break this novel concept to you that will take some time to get around your head.”
I don’t appreciate the way your talking down to me.
“Its just that unless a man has the face of Adonis and the body of a Greek god; women can’t sexualize, objectify and lust after men; and cant find their bodies as delicious and irresistible as vice versa.”
I’m sorry but as a woman, this has never been my experience. I’ve been attracted to men of many different body types. As I have seen among my friends as well.
“”"”However, usually the things used to “woo” men are not the same exact things used to “woo” women. I don’t interact with my female friends the same way I interact with my boyfriends. I don’t want to have to interact with my boyfriends the same way I interact with females! If I did, then I would infact probably date women. While I think that the world is more gender progressive then ever before, and that is over-all a positive thing, the inherent reason I am attracted to men is because they are different from me, not the same.”"”"
People are “wooed” by the same thing. Both men and women like pretty things and both men and women like charismatic people. What I am talking about is the imbalance in who does what, even if we throw sex into equation.
“”"”However, being the person getting approached doesn’t necessarily make that person passive. It’s a dance that requires two to work…or two not to work. Both have a role they are playing and participating in.”"”"”
You know you are absolutely right. And if you think that’s what I said then I didn’t make myself clear. The lesbian women that talked to me initiated the conversations. They were easy to talk to and it was fun to do so with them. Notice that I wasn’t passive I gave back just as much. What happened was that I had so much fun with them that, even if they were quite homely, it was completely natural for me to think well of them and wonder how much fun they would be in bed or in a relationship. What I was getting at is that most women men meet don’t try to be like these charming and funny women.
“”"”"”Often I see men make suggestions to women about how to be more like men. Instead of respecting and valuing the way women are and do things different from men. So no, this isn’t just a female problem. This is a relational problem between men and women. This is not primarily a woman’s issue. It’s both our issues because how the genders choose to interact with each other is always connected and will always have certain reactions. I don’t even really believe you believe this is just a woman’s issue. I don’t think you would have commented on it if you really believe that. “”"”"”
It’s a societal problem yes. But the onus is on women to fix it. We didn’t choose to interact this way we were forced to do it. If this was by choice that our genetics forced upon us, PUA wouldn’t need to exist. It would have been obvious what to do.
“”"”What I see between you and also from Bay Area Guy’s comments is that you feel entitled in a way. Simply because you made the initial approach. You are obviously free to approach who you want. But your focus on “hot” women exclusively gives me even more reason to not to talk to men that don’t want to talk to me.
Entitlement isn’t an attractive trait and it actually makes me less inclined to want to do as you suggest. What you’ve taught me is that if a man finds me attractive, he will approach me. And if he doesn’t, he won’t. Women are told all day long how visual men are and how much men need to be attracted to their partner. I believe that women are more flexible in their physical attraction of men then men are on their physical attraction of women.
I don’t want to be stuck in a relationship with a man that liked me because I was sweet and funny and because I approached him and made it easy for him but then spends the rest of his time while we are out ogling other hot women that he actually would have approached or looking at online porn. So women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
But weather a woman approaches or not, doesn’t mean you are entitled to super hot women just because you approach. And your focus on approaching the hottest women is exactly the reason more women don’t put themselves out there. If men do not show a diversity of interest in women, in their looks, or outside their looks, men give very little reason for women to be participants in a game they can’t win. “”"
I want to talk about something here. This is something that is everywhere in society not just in women. That is contempt for men. To see the worst in them on the get go. In general it can be seen in the wole “man up” meme.
In women it is seen in that the majority of men start on the minus and we have to prove our worth to you. This is an entitled position. This is “why more women don’t put themselves out there”. If ALL men thought like me the majority of women would act like men are today. Because women would understand that if they had to get any man they would have to step up their game. Women would become more aggressive. Because human biology tries to reduce pain and harm more then it tries to find pleasure. Basically women are in a pleasurable position with more choice then the other team.
“”"”Lastly, I am bothered by your comments that women mearly have to be more active and a guy will mellow out. First it insinuate that how women choose to act isn’t already active just because it’s not the way a man would act. Second, it suggests that women are the ones that are not only responsible for their own choices (as they should be) but they are also responsible for how men act. You are basically saying if women do “A” then men will do “B”. I guess I just find that completely unattractive. I don’t want to be responsible for how men act..if men “mellow out”. I want a man who takes pride in being responsible for his own actions and acts a certain way without me having to prompt him out of it. “”"”"
We live in a society. How we act to each other will have consequences. I find this funny because in the paragraph above you say this: “And your focus on approaching the hottest women is exactly the reason more women don’t put themselves out there. If men do not show a diversity of interest in women, in their looks, or outside their looks, men give very little reason for women to be participants in a game they can’t win.”
Where is the responsibility here?
If you want to know why a lot of men are interested in PUA try this Erin:
In one week.
Look at all the men you meet. And find ONE positive thing about him.
Now I can’t find the bloody blog that this experiment was first tried. But all the women that did this where absolutely BLOWN away how many attractive everyday men there were out there.
Suddenly they wanted to get to know a lot of them! What a shocker. Everyday men can be attractive!!!
This is the way that men were raised to think about women.
Now imagine that the other half of society… Hell Society at large don’t think that back about you.
A lot of guys can’t stand that pressure because he is, whatever else people say about him, ultimately human. Now the rebel PUA comes in and whispers things in his ear about not needing to feel this way.
If I, as a guy, have to do all the heavy lifting to get a relationship going why shouldn’t I go for the people that I find most attractive?
Exactly. Men have to invest a lot more (in terms of taking initiative and having good social skills) in courtship than women do, so they deserve at least a somewhat higher return for their investment.
Erin
Nerdluvver tries to give the impression that men who struggle at dating, and the men who need his advice, are average men who intend to date women outside their league.
I can assure you this impression is false and this happens only in media and Judd Apatow movies.
In reality AVERAGE men struggle to attract AVERAGE women.