You need to understand what makes a creeper creepy.
A reader – Concerned Cosplayer – asked specifically how to handle a creeper in the outer-edges of her social group. Now normally I would just save this for Wednesday, but one question she asked stands out: how does one reform a creeper?
And the short answer is: one doesn’t.
The longer answer is that creepers have to reform themselves.
Part of the reason why creepers remain an ongoing topic is because, frankly, many people refuse to acknowledge that they’re being creepy in the first place. Until they do, there’s no change to be had.
This is especially pernicious when you deal with issues of sexual shaming and male privilege; many guys don’t recognize that what may seem like innocent behavior to them can cause women to feel profoundly uncomfortable. Because they see themselves as having done nothing wrong, they attempt to shift the blame to women, calling them “overly sensitive” or insisting that they “need to get over it”.
The men that do recognize the problem and want to change often find themselves paralyzed in trying to fix things – frozen by their anxiety of being “creepy” in the first place and thus unable to do the necessary work in the first place.
So this week, we’re going to do something differently. We’re having Creep Week, all about creepers, how to handle them when you’re dealing with them and how to stop being creepy, and how to avoid being That Guy at popular nerd venues like conventions, comic stores and other geek gatherings.
Today we’re going to talk about what it takes for someone to become an ex-creeper. And I’ll tell you now: it’s not easy.
Step One: Understand What Makes A Creeper Creepy
One of the issues that comes up again and again when discussing the topic of Creepers is the idea of simple ignorance: that is, many guys are unaware of just what is considered “creepy” in the first place. Some guys literally paralyze themselves with social anxiety, worrying that the most innocent and innocuous of gestures will be seen as being “creepy” and unwelcome. Others refuse to acknowledge that their behavior plays any part at all in causing a woman discomfort, putting the onus on her to not be disturbed by these theoretically well-meaning but socially inexperienced and awkward types.
Of course, it’s easy to say “give the creepy guy a chance” when you’re not the one who has to gauge every social situation by the potential danger it may or may not present. To quote from Gavin DeBecker’s excellent book The Gift of Fear: “Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death.”
Now, there have been many useful guides that are meant to help bring awareness to creepy behavior, including John Scalzi’s. Perhaps the most well-known guide is Schrodinger’s Rapist, which explicitly points out just why women are unlikely to give a creeper a chance.
Unfortunately, many people take the wrong messages from these and assume that the take-away is that men should not talk to strange women ever for fear of being given the Scarlet C and being exiled from feminine company forever. This isn’t the point. The point is to make men aware of their behavior – that things that many men take for granted as “unthreatening” or even “complimentary” will come across entirely differently to a relative stranger. You may think that you’re being clever or flirtatious or even sweet… but you can come across another way entirely.
The other popular counter-argument, of course, is that it’s not a matter of behavior but looks; that it’s only “ugly” men who are “creepy” and that handsome guys are never called creepy.
The infamous “Just Be Attractive” Saturday Night Live sketch gets bandied about as though it were some truth handed down from on high rather than a comedy skit intended for a quick laugh before segueing to Weekend Update and the musical guest.
This ignores the fundamental truth about creepy behavior: at it’s core it’s an issue of a violation of boundaries. Some people are able to get away with behavior that others are not – being sexually direct, making inappropriate jokes, standing well within an individual’s personal space – because boundaries are elastic. We are more willing to accept certain behavior from some people than others; people we know well are able to “get away” with more as it were. People who are socially well-calibrated are given more opportunities than a random stranger. We allow them greater leeway than others because they demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they understand where the line is – and this is important – how to step back from it when they get too close.
This does not mean that someone who isn’t a social butterfly can’t approach an unfamiliar woman and attempt to strike up a conversation, just that he needs to be very aware of how his behavior can come across to others, whether he intends it to or not.
The short-hand version of the various guides is actually very simple at it’s core.
Understand the social contract and how it can change depending on circumstance, location and time of day; approaching a woman walking down the street during the day is going to have a different feel than approaching her at night, for example.
Maintain your distance – generally about foot and a half for most Western cultures – and be careful not to back someone into a corner or otherwise prevent them from leaving the interaction.
Don’t be inappropriately sexual, especially early on in the interaction.
Be aware of the other person’s discomfort. When in doubt, apply the concepts of enthusiastic consent to the conversation and look for an explicit “yes, please continue” rather than not getting a direct “no, go away”.
It’s not nearly as hard as others may make it out to be. Most women’s signals are not as subtle and inscrutable as people make them out to be.
Step Two: Accept That You Aren’t Owed Anything
One thing I hear frequently from guys who don’t want to be creepy is how confusing it all is and how much they wish that women would teach them how to not be creepy. In fact, I’ve seen far too many men who imply – or even state outright – that it’s not fair that women establish these seemingly arbitrary rules and refuse to educate men on what they are.
So I want to emphasize this cold hard truth: nobody owes you a damn thing. You aren’t owed sex, a second chance, a first chance or so much as a smile just because you demanded it.
A woman doesn’t owe you an explanation of why or how you creeped her out. She isn’t obligated to tell you how to not be creepy. It isn’t her duty to teach you how to pick her up or to give you a chance to start over and try again.
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A woman doesn’t owe you an explanation of why or how you creeped her out. She isn’t obligated to tell you how to not be creepy. It isn’t her duty to teach you how to pick her up or to give you a chance to start over and try again. It doesn’t matter if she was giggling and enjoying some other person’s dirty jokes and blatant sexual come-ons. It doesn’t matter if she’s been receptive to your friend, the guy who came up before you or after you or to any other random dude that night – she isn’t obligated to be social to everybody who approach. Consenting to a particular type of interaction with one specific individual does not mean that she has de facto consented to having that type of interaction with all and sundry.
Every woman out there is allowed to set her standards for who she does and does not want to talk to, even if it makes no logical sense. If she decides that she isn’t going to talk to you because you’re a ginger and she believes that red hair is the sign of the devil, that’s her business.
There is no debate to be had. You don’t get to argue her into changing her standards, and it won’t help to try. You don’t get to protest or look to some higher authority for an appeal because ultimately it comes down to this simple fact: her right to not be approached should she choose outweighs your desire to approach her.
You may think you have reasons. That’s nice. Your excuses really don’t matter. I’ve heard them all… you’re from a different culture, socially awkward or even having Aspergers or falling on the autism spectrum. 99% of the people you’ve creeped out aren’t going to care about why you did it, nor are they obligated to listen or to forgive you.
(And as a side-note: I’ve known many people with Asperger’s Syndrome – as in, diagnosed by a medical professional, not by a test on OKCupid – and they go out of their way to avoid being creepy by accident. Their response to accidentally offending or weirding someone out isn’t “hey, you can’t get upset at me, because reasons,” it’s “Oh man, I’m so sorry….”)
You may feel that you’re being unfairly misunderstood. Misunderstandings happen. This doesn’t mean that you get a free pass on whatever you did to creep them out. It means that you can apologize and hope you get a chance to try again. No, it’s not “fair”. Fairness doesn’t enter into the equation at all. Women aren’t video games or computer programs that follow a rigid and unchanging set of rules that are applied equally to everybody. Trying to treat them otherwise is only going to make your creep level go from “potential creeper” to “definitelycreepy”.
Other people do not exist for your pleasure and you don’t get to tell them that they don’t have a right to whatever arbitrary standards she has chosen. You have to be willing to accept “no” for an answer and walk away – to do otherwise is to tell her that you prioritize your desires over hers and this is an explicit indication that you are willing to ignore her boundaries.
Moreover, arguing why you weren’t really creepy is counterproductive to your goal: learning how to not be a creeper. You have to want to change and that means accepting that other folks are finding you creepy for a reason. If you want to stop being called creepy, you have to learn not to give them that reason, not try to argue her standards down.
To misquote the zen koan: true change comes from within.
The sooner that you can accept this, the less likely you will be creepy by accident.
Step Three: Develop Your Sense of Self-Awareness
Since women aren’t obligated to help you on your journey of self-improvement, what’s a contrite creeper supposed to do?
He’s supposed to develop his sense of self-awareness, that’s what.
Part of learning how to not be creepy is that you have to learn to be aware of your behavior and how others are perceiving it.
Notice very carefully how I said “How others perceive it.” This is important. What’s acceptable to one person can be unbelievably rude or creepy to another… and it’s on you to learn how to gauge the difference.
This is ultimately a matter of social experience; you can’t just learn the theory and expect that to get you through every social interaction… especially if you’re looking for a relationship. You only get the ability to gauge people’s reactions through, well, going out and getting those reactions.
It can seem counter-intuitive to have to practice interacting with other people because it seems like something we should be able to do instinctually. This misses a critical truth: being social and understanding basic human interaction is a learned skill; it doesn’t seem like one because we’ve (theoretically) been practicing it since birth. As a result: we mistake a lifetime of learning for natural-born instinct.
Now I’ll be the first to tell you: it takes a lot of work to be self-aware and dispassionately critical about yourself, especially when you’re trying to unlearn bad habits and adapt to new sets of behavior. It’s tempting to read what we expect to see in the reactions of others, whether it’s what we want (“She wants me!”) or what we fear (“Oh god I offended her!”).
This is one reason why I recommend journalling everything about your interactions when you’re trying to get better at dating. It can be hard to pick up on patterns and cycles while you’re in the moment. Being able to take a step back and look at things with a calmer, more detached eye afterwards can make recurring issues stand out. Watch for specific triggers – certain “compliments” (especially sexual ones), poorly received jokes, attempts to prolong the conversation past it’s natural end… these are all common areas where guys fall down when trying to avoid being creepy.
Yes, you are going to make mistakes. This is part of the process and it’s important to accept that you’re still learning. Being able to handle those mistakes is just as important as avoiding them in the first place… more on this in a minute.
Sometimes it can help to have a friend who’s willing to help you out (keeping in mind my previous rule: nobody, especially women who have already rejected you, have an obligation to teach you) and provide feedback. An extra set of eyes – especially someone who is willing to be bluntly honest with you instead of reinforcing your ego by insisting that bitches be trippin’ – can be a valuable resource.
Ultimately, however, you need to be able to monitor your own behavior and the reactions of others. Nobody else is going to do it for you.
Yes, this is going to be hard to keep all in mind and maintain a natural conversation with people. It’s not different from trying to learn how to hit a baseball or shoot a basket or perform a katta; you’re trying to gauge distance, trajectory, speed, balance, position and muscle control all at once… but eventually it all becomes one smooth movement that you can perform without thinking.
As with any skill, mindfulness and self-awareness takes practice and repetition. With time and experience, you can turn it from a conscious process into the mental equivalent of muscle memory.
Step Four: Accept That You’re Going To Fuck Up Sometimes
So after all of the beating about the head and shoulders with the clue-by-four I want to remind guys of something: being creepy by accident isn’t the end of the world. It’s not necessarily even the end of the interaction with that particular person.
This is something that trips up a lot of well-meaning-but-otherwise-awkward guys: they let the fear of being a creeper overwhelm them. They may freak out and over-compensate by fearing to approach anyone while some become so obsessed with not making any mistakes that they fall back on pre-scripted routines and can’t handle any interaction that doesn’t go 100% smoothly. Many become convinced that women are actively looking for reasons to refuse them and come into every interaction with the assumption that they’ve been rejected in advance.
Here’s the thing: you don’t need to be perfect in order to succeed at dating. You can fuck up pretty badly and still recover from it… as long as you know how to handle the aftermath.
Are you ready for my wisdom? Brace yourself, ‘cuz it’s pretty heavy.
You apologize. And then you try to not repeat your fuck-up.
Pretty simple, huh?
When you trip up, the best thing you can do is get up, dust yourself off and – this is the important part – learn from it. The whole point is to learn how to not to screw up the same way twice.
If you tell a creepy joke – something with sexual innuendo, say, that your social circle wouldn’t blink twice at – and the person you’re talking to doesn’t like it? Apologize, make a mental note not to tell that joke again and just move forward. You don’t dwell on the moment and reinforce that it happend. You shrug your shoulders, make your apologies and move on.
Approached a woman who wasn’t in the mood to be hit on? Apologize, move on. Went for the kiss with your date when she wasn’t feeling it? Apologize for misreading the signals. Accidentally back someone into a corner while talking to them? Apologize, take a couple steps back and to the side. Someone isn’t comfortable with your being touchy-feely? Apologize and keep your hands to yourself. Realize that you’re keeping someone in the conversation longer than she actually wants to be? Apologize, say it was nice talking to her and let her go.
Never underestimate the power of a sincere apology to diffuse the creeper vibe.
This can be hard to comprehend at times – we’ve been sold the idea that dating is supposed to be a smooth and effortless process that goes off with military precision that we forget that we’re only human and sometimes we screw up. But when you can handle the fuck-up with class, you actually become more attractive than someone who gets flustered or angry. It’s an important part of learning to develop your self-awareness – being able to handle the times when you screw up without going to pieces.
Like I said earlier: creepy behavior intrudes on somebody else’s boundaries. Being willing and able to recognize that the intrusion happened and showing that you honestly didn’t mean to is a sign that you respect her boundaries and limits. It’s the mark of an emotionally mature, socially intelligent man to be able to say “Oops, my bad” and not continue acting like a dick.
This is why it’s important to not try to argue or debate whether or not you were being creepy. You may think that you’re being wrongly misunderstood and trying to explain… but all she’s going to hear is “You don’t have the right to feel threatened by me because my desire to fuck you outweighs your right to feel safe,” and this has never gotten anyone laid ever.
Even the best seducers and ladies men have their moments where they trip over their own dicks. The point is not that you have to avoid all mistakes upon pain of death; it’s how you handle things when you do fuck up.
It’s all part of the learning experience. You’re going to take some lumps. It’s going to suck. But when you stick to it and make the effort to learn how to avoid creeper behavior, you will find that people will start responding the way you hope they will.
And you won’t be a creeper any longer. You’ll be that cool guy that people like to get to know.
Now go and creep no more.
Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove
If you can’t read the subtle cues that women give you, without telling you flat out to go take a hike, then it’s probably in your best interest to educate yourself on this.
To me, this is a practical question. Ultimately it doesn’t even matter if you are “right” and she is “wrong to think that way.” Once she sees you as a “creep,” however she defines that, fairly or unfairly, you will not be changing her mind. You can assume you will not prove her wrong, certainly not in her mind. I challenge you to find any woman who felt creeped out by a guy who immediately changed her mind about him after he talked to her for a few minutes. At that point there’s probably nothing you can do to improve… Read more »
I think that this post is wrong about one thing: no experience is needed. What it takes to understand what approach is ok and what is not, is to imagine yourself being approached that way. Women do it all the time, imagining what the other person might feel (this is because women have to…just think about how many movies are about men…women always get to imagine being the male protagonist when going to a movie….but more serious: in order to stay out of dangerous situations women have to constantly wonder about what is going on in the man that is… Read more »
As a guy, as someone that has to approach women if I ever want to have romantic contacts: That won’t work. If guys would do as you said they would be labeled a “Nice Guy”. And if what you suggest would work, would actually work the same “Nice Guys” would be the ones that would have gotten all of the ladies. I’m going to keep it real here. Not only will it not work. I don’t think most women deserve this level of consideration. I should try to minimize the level of creepiness as much as I can. But if… Read more »
“I don’t think most women deserve this level of consideration.” And you call yourself a ‘nice guy’, right? “TRY to be as engaged in the interaction and feel out what both parties want. TRY to make the other party comfortable expressing themselves as they are expressing themselves. TRY to find positive traits about the other person and not force the other party to become somewhat of a dancing monkey. TRY to express their boundaries in a clear cut way. And ask about and accommodate the other party’s boundaries as well.” If you are the one approaching women and you are… Read more »
If you can’t read the subtle cues that women give you, without telling you flat out to go take a hike, then it’s probably in your best interest to educate yourself on this.
Hola, no I am not a nice guy. I was a nice guy. Then I stopped the bullshit and got laid instead, The problem here is that both girls and guys want something. Like it or not you are part of a community that is looking for something, It’s not like it’s only men that want relationships and sex right? So you do have a responsiblity, specially if you like the priviliege of not needing to approach. Being the approacher strains you in ways that might be hard for women to understand. Women that somehow want’s to push more burdens… Read more »
I don’t agree with all of Nistan’s arguments, but I do wish someone on here would address his point about the onus on men, at least in this culture, to initiate contact. I think this is worth and in-depth discussion, and I’m curious to hear other perspectives on it.
Yes, it would be great if men and women approached each other equally. Why don’t they? Well, obviously in the past that was cemented as the only appropriate way to do dating.. that men must approach and women must not (because masculinity, femininity, being proper). Now we’re starting to discard these old fashioned ideas, but these things don’t change over night. I would love for women to approach me, but I have also heard guys put down women who are too ‘forward’, implying that a woman who approaches men easily must do it all the time and is probably a… Read more »
Overall an interesting discussion and a good article, but I have to criticize something: you could have checked yourself before inserting the “bitches be trippin” as your example of an entitled man’s bafflement at how women are responding to him. It casts a black man’s image with the idea of male privilege, which is not bound by skin color or culture. Maybe you did not mean to do this. However, it’s alienating to men of color when White men (which admittedly I’m not sure you are, but being named ‘Harris O’Malley’ ups that possibility) exercise their racial privilege in this… Read more »
I wish this article had gone a bit deeper and questioned the integrity of a dating system in which men are expected to “approach” and are then castigated (by women as well as other men) for not doing it properly (“properly” doesn’t make sense here; “to her liking” seems more fitting). If it’s going to be the man’s burden to wag his tailfeathers, I think he at least deserves a little bit of sympathy and understanding, if not respect. Besides, as far as I can tell, there appears to be no such thing as “a creeper” outside of a very… Read more »
Well, you can imagine what it would be like for a woman to be approached by you in the manner that you do. If you would creep yourself out, you know that you will also creep out any woman. Or imagine another man approaching you in that way. You can do that all on your own. What would also help is to pay attention to women’s behavior when you approach them, instead of waiting for them to sit you down and tell you flat out what you are doing wrong. Repeat whatever women you approach like and don’t repeat what… Read more »
While it’s good to improve self-awareness and practice social skills, it’s inappropriate to let anyone off the hook for having such arbitrary silent rules that they effectively close themselves off to a large portion of the population. There’s another word for people who behave this way- snobs. Snobbishness should be taboo. Furthermore, it’s downright harmful to blame the men who transgress the delicate snobs’ silent rules by accidentally stepping on one of the eggshells she’s surrounded herself with, despite his best efforts not to. Some may step up and improve their social skills while others may throw up their hands… Read more »
@Evan M,
“I think we need a more open and less cliquish society where people can feel comfortable striking up conversations with each other without having to beat themselves over the head wondering what they did wrong. It was so much easier to do that sort of thing as a kid, but adults have really screwed it up, and that’s a shame.”
I could not agree more. It is simple human decency.
Well, that is what happens when women are taught to fear men. Unfortunately when a woman is raped the first thing everybody would say is something like ‘why were you in that bar drinking to begin with’ or ‘why did you go with him’ or ‘why were you flirting when you didn’t want sex’…etc. Women are often held accountable for their rape whenever they were nice to the guy earlier on. So we are taught to never be nice to strange men, it’s as simple as that. Besides that, many men do demand more after just one talk. Once they… Read more »
I agree completely with all you said here. Definitely guys reading into things so much…. they think you want them when you are just being polite or when you don’t want to be a b*tch.
And because most women ignore eye contact with men and tell men their compliments are ‘inappropriate’ for these reasons, the women that DO smile and make eye contact are sometimes immediately labeled by SOME men as ‘easy’, ‘sluts’, etc. You see how women just can’t ‘win’ either?
Creep has become the new C-word. If you look up Feminist Shaming Tactics, it is often used to shut down any kind of rational debate.
Must be very hard for you.
Just wanted to add to whatever I said before. And about the touching vs. compliments… did I not make it clear that physical boundaries should be respected? In my personal case, I have trained martial arts for years, so it’s not such an issue for me personally. I can and will defend myself from creepers. But I do feel for people who really don’t seem to ‘get it’, as I know that some people who act creepy might have some social disorders or have been abused.
Some have social disorders? I would say all of them, unless the perceived creepiness is only a stupid misunderstanding. But it need not be pathological (like Asperger’s or something), most of the time men just have never been taught how to interact with women socially. You write that women just know when a man is attracted to them. But that is a learned skill. I don’t think you believe the X chromosome gives you a natural advantage over the Y chromosome in that respect? Men could learn it just as well as women, but for some reason parents often only… Read more »
The whole society is arranged that way that women often find themselves in a position in which they have to imagine what a man might think. Reading a book and identifying with the male protagonist or male author…going to a museum and looking at paintings of nude women…going to a movie with a male protagonist (most of them)…..talking to any man that has power over you, like your teacher, boss, dad….any stranger in the street who is twice your size and may want to hurt you….learning how to read social signs from groups of men standing at the street corner… Read more »
@Hola—
I have trained in martial arts, too, and I get creeped out when a guy gets too close and physically escalates, even though I am waving my diamond wedding ring in his face….some guy encircled his arms around me as he was hitting the camera phone button… Ick! Last party I went to I kept my son and hubby at arm’s length and my close high school buddies close by… Amazing how often men creep up on me at cocktail parties and ignore proper social boundaries… I guess it must be Asperger’s or narcissism … Or just plain rudeness…
Oh yes… I agree. But it’s funny… as soon as I mention I train martial arts, it’s like they get scared. Even when they are stronger and taller than I am. Makes you wonder……………. I can not begin to imagine what life would be like to walk this earth with nothing and no one to fear…. this must be what it is like to be a male… and the other guys would not dare bother you cause they know they would regret it.
“(And as a side-note: I’ve known many people with Asperger’s Syndrome – as in, diagnosed by a medical professional, not by a test on OKCupid – and they go out of their way to avoid being creepy by accident. Their response to accidentally offending or weirding someone out isn’t “hey, you can’t get upset at me, because reasons,” it’s “Oh man, I’m so sorry….”)” Not true. See, “The Science of Evil” by Simon Baron-Cohen. Such people are not know to have a much empathy as people who do not suffer from Asperger’s Syndrome. They are also know to not be… Read more »
“Such people are not know to have a much empathy as people who do not suffer from Asperger’s Syndrome. They are also know to not be as social.”
Typos, Sorry.
Should read,
“Such people are not known to have as much empathy as people who do not suffer from Asperger’s Syndrome. They are also known to not be as social.”
I don’t personally care if people think I’m creepy. In fact, I find it super funny in those instances to pull on the hood on my hoodie and start acting all shady. Really freaks ’em out!
Take care, my friend. There are places where somebody can shoot you upon that and get away with it.
Isn’t it interesting how the definition of “creeper” is widening to include almost anything. A few problem with this. 1) instead of only discussing how women may feel, we need to ask WHY they feel that way. people can be socialized to think of men as dangerous – therefore creepy. And with an open acceptance of labels geared towards males, it seems that men’s privilege is considered strong enough to withstand systemic sexism against them. 2) Creepy is often used unfairly and in a derogatory manner. For example an ugly man striking up a small talk conversation. No one wants… Read more »
@Archy,
Yes Archy. It is all this rape culture nonsense.
“There are also some that use the label as a way to stave off lesser attractive people hitting on them.”
Very true too. But it is an awful way to treat another human being. Just as it is equally dehumanizing to not treat a prostitute or homeless person with simply human dignity.
I agree that people can be very mean. But you know what? I have a female friend who is overweight. If I tell you the mean things people say to her… I don’t think I could deal with that. She might never find the strength to even lose the weight after all that. She can be happy and just go about her day, to have total strangers call her ‘fatty’ on the street. I would rather work my butt off to have the world smiling at me, holding the doors open and to know that all the guys want me,… Read more »
I did. Then she seduced me. Then she fell in love with me. Some weeks later it turned out I could not have a relationship with her. By God, I tried to give her the chance, I really did, because she was the nicest person you could ever meet. But it just didn’t work, I got depressed and messed up and had to stop it. Which made her sad. Now I think back to it with regret and shame, as if I had used her like a cheap player does. Not good advice!
That was a reply to Hola.
” Do me a favor, think of the least attractive girl you know and take her out on a date.”
No. I wouldn’t want women pity dating me either. I have standards, I have tried to force attraction for women I don’t find appealing and it doesn’t work. I’m not great on the attraction either but no one is owed a date. Interesting enough the least attractive women I know are all dating, the least attractive men I know are all single.
“No one is owed a date”… exactly. Actually no one is owed anything. We can only hope that people treat us with kindness, politeness and consideration. And if they just don’t even want to talk with you, it’s OK, there are more fish in the sea!
As far as male privilege, here’s an experiment: Next time you see a homeless man on the street, ask him how he is enjoying his position of privilege and dominance. As for the rest, look up articles on Zeta Males and Men Going Their Own Way or MGTOW. We are not forfeiting the game, just refusing to play it in the first place. For the last 40 years we have been told that we are all potential rapists, pedophiles and abusers, and men have gotten the message. The #1 rule of gambling is that the house always wins. We have… Read more »
@Wes Carr, The really sad thing here is the sheer lack of humanity in this ‘game.’ I cannot understand a woman who has a son and think she has given birth to a potential rapist or sexual predator. Nor can I understand how she would not be concerned that other women see her son in this light. I guess it is similar to how men can treat strippers and sex workers badly. After all, ‘it is not my daughter.’ It is other chaps daughter. Hence, it must be OK. In reality it is dehumanizing. There is just something rotten that… Read more »
This is silly, as homeless men are a minority group of the male population. And don’t you think you are exaggerating a bit? I think many mothers do worry about how to raise their kids, including their sons, well. Some might worry that they have not been able to do so. Some might be delusional. I don’t see men as rapists, but take away the law and law enforcement and I don’t want to know what people would do. The human race rages war… destroys the planet. I totally agree though, people act tribal. They only care about themselves and… Read more »
It is patriarchal, when you do not define Patriarchy as the rule of men, all men. It is the rule of the Patriarchs, who are a small subset of all men. The rest of us get screwed over as cannon fodder.
Hola, ” The human race rages war… destroys the planet. I totally agree though, people act tribal.” Yes, this is the irony of living in an advanced indutrialized nation like the US. I would expect more tribal behavior to exist in a poor country such as Sri Lanka or Bhutan…etc. I think the fundamental difference is in the US, this tribal behavior is driven by narcissism. While in a poor country it is driven by the need to suvive as a unit or as in many parts of Africa the existence of tribalism. If you look at human history, it… Read more »
Class privilege and male privilege aren’t the same thing, nor does one negate the other. The homeless man on the street is still significantly less likely to be a victim of sexual violence than the homeless woman on the street. That’s all privilege is, it’s that, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, you’re less likely to suffer something bad specifically because you are a man (or hetero, or white, or whatever).
The number one way to not be seen as a creeper is to suppress your own sexuality. There are other ways to be a creeper but the simplest is to show romantic/sexual interest in someone out of your class or without invitation. if you head over to youtube and look this up you will find over and over the same advice… don’t have any apparent sexuality or interest. They say it a bit nicer but that is really what it boils down to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5M5QmYWIuM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si6RO2qpkWA I don’t think that last one really knows what sincere means. One of the links… Read more »
Compliments are always welcomed. If you say something like “you look beautiful/lovely today”, with a nice smile, it would be hard to go wrong with that. Of course you have to mean it. Just watch her reaction. Acting like a gentleman is always OK. Say things that she can say “Thank you” to. And then leave it at that. If she wants to say more, she will. If she feels uncomfortable, it was just a nice compliment and no harm is done. Just keep it short and sweet and be OK even if she does not respond the way you… Read more »
She will know you have a sexual interest in her, mainly because… probably EVERY guy does. So there is no point telling her you want her sexually. A nice compliment will tell her you might be interested, or might just be a gentleman, being nice. So keep it more mysterious as opposed to going full stalker.
I am saying this cause men always used to keep their sexual desires to themselves and act like gentlemen, in older days. Part of what is creepy is a guy who just does not want to play this game, but would prefer to just be more aggressive in his approach, without caring about how the female feels about this. It never works. It’s much better to take the time to understand these social dynamics and to learn how to communicate or how to bring out the best in yourself. Just so you know… women also have to suppress their sexuality… Read more »
I have to disagree – I definitely do not want a compliment on my beauty/looks/body/etc from a stranger, like, ever. A friend or a guy I’m getting to know, sure. But not out of nowhere.
Right, because that would be creepy to have some guy walk up to you out of the blue and express a interest in your body. Other things that caught my attention. “with a nice smile, it would be hard to go wrong with that. Of course you have to mean it” I very much doubt anyone has not meant it when such is offered. “I am saying this cause men always used to keep their sexual desires to themselves and act like gentlemen, in older days. Part of what is creepy is a guy who just does not want to… Read more »
OK, but this happens to me all the time. I constantly get compliments from total strangers, both male and females. I thought this was pretty normal. Perhaps it’s not. I was more thinking of a situation like a classroom, where the two people already sort of know each other. As a nicer thing to do than to stalk or stare. To be honest, women KNOW men want them. They will also know when you are trying to hide that. It would be hard to camouflage. I don’t know what it’s like to be a guy and to constantly be sexually… Read more »
Also… to Anonguy, what is your current approach then? Do you approach women and make it super clear what is on your mind? I don’t really see what your problem is with either your sexual expression or the repression thereof? Can you be more specific?
My approach is to be married for 14 years. This is more of an observation about how inherently dishonest people have to be and how it kinda shocks me how much people sub out reality for fantasy on how dating should work. Yes a man should be honest and upfront. However to have someone simply express whats on the mind like that would be super creepy don’t you think? “To be honest, women KNOW men want them. They will also know when you are trying to hide that. It would be hard to camouflage.” It is hard to camouflage…maybe that… Read more »
Oh I do want… but I have my vibrator baby 😉
@Hola, “OK, but this happens to me all the time. I constantly get compliments from total strangers, both male and females. I thought this was pretty normal.” Yes, Hola it is pretty normal, except with many white American women here. I am a minirotiy person. Miniority women do not have all the social hangup (or extremely narrow views of attraction) as White women in America. I saw a very well dressed women who appeared to be of immigrant origin in Safeway last week. I complimented her and she was all smiles. She said ‘Thank You!” She also offered me a… Read more »
To be clear: If someone said “Cool shoes” or “That’s a great nail color” or something – man or woman – I’m not going to be bothered. But “You’re beautiful” would be really uncomfortable, and I’ve never had someone say it who was a stranger where I haven’t thought about bolting for a door. I actually had a young guy follow me out of Whole Foods a year ago – when I was with my kids – and say, “I just have to tell you how beautiful you are. Your face is just… beautiful” and I was like, “Thank you”… Read more »
If you had men say it who acted respectfully around you, would it bother you to this day? Or does it bother you because it’s always been by creepy guys?
You’re missing the point – the act is what made the guy creepy, nothing more, nothing less. While there are some women who will use the word “creepy” to simply mean “unattractive to me”, what we’re talking about here is acting like a creep. The dude becomes a creep not because of how he looks but because he follows her out of the store to comment on her looks. Most of my female friends who have called men creepy within earshot of me have done so because he did something like what Joanna described, not because they simply didn’t like… Read more »
Joanna, I seriously wonder why you feel it’s inappropriate when a stranger just wants to tell you he finds you beautiful? It’s not like he is saying “hey tits, wanna F***?” I do have people tell me they think I am beautiful, etc. Or ask if I am a model. Most don’t mean anything else by it. Sometimes a person just genuinely means they find you beautiful. Does not always mean they will go home and masturbate to you. Though they just might. LOL It’s not a bad thing that people find you beautiful. Actually, I find you beautiful as… Read more »
I am white European by the way. Indeed I am not American. However I have lived in the USA for multiple years in the past and have traveled through the USA a lot. I must say that American men are VERY much into giving compliments.
I do use a Spanish word as my name here, but just to be complete and clear, I am a white female of North European nationality.
“To be honest, women KNOW men want them. They will also know when you are trying to hide that. It would be hard to camouflage. ”
Remember all the women who act innocent and say they don’t know the “nice guy” liked them and claimed to be surprised when they found out? Not all women know when men like them or those women would be lying about not knowing the nice guy likes them…so which is it?
Meh. Self-labeled “nice guys” are usually not nice at all, but are resentful about rejection, have an ambivalent self-esteem, and tell themselves they are just nice and “that’s why” to self-soothe. They also often seem to feel entitled to women who are way “out of their league” (in terms of effort expended on attractiveness, anyway) and who they would never actually be happy with. Jenna Marbles says it well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXXXX9iVPI
Agree with you.
The ‘nice guy’ is not necessarily a guy who does not voice that he likes a woman. The ‘nice guy’ is a guy who treats her well IN A RELATIONSHIP.
A very readable text with a number of interesting comments complementing the message. I’ve been creepy occasionally, both as a man communicating with women and in other social or group settings. I’ve managed to stay clear of the ‘creeper zone’ with women for about about two years, with one notable ‘fuck-up’. I’m still working on general social and group communication issues. A number realizations helped me along, the most important of which was that everyone is responsible for their communication. I am responsible for what messages I am sending and how these messages are received. In particular I am responsible… Read more »
“I am responsible for what messages I am sending and how these messages are received.” Sure, this is true if one is tempted to become aggressive about meeting people. I won’t typically approach strangers in public because of the issues that many people on this thread have mentioned. Once in a great while I’ll notice something humorous and point it our to someone I haven’t met– maybe in a grocery line or something. None of these contacts has ever turned into an ongoing relationship. Once, before I was married the second time, I had a great train ride where I… Read more »
So ‘ginger’ is now a word used everywhere to describe people with reddish hair? Can you not see it’s not the right way to go about this?
Sorry to drop some reality here but my experience growing up demonstrated that it was routinely males from financially challenged backgrounds, without stunning looks, that were routinely labelled ‘creeps’ and shamed by their peers (mostly women I’m afraid).
And you’d like to reform them?
Tobe, I suspect this is true. I think part of the problem too is the “predatorization” of men by sex negative feminism. Terms like “creep” and “predator” color (all) men with attributes they probably don’t have. These terms are tantamount to racist epithets in many ways, except they’re based on gender. In contrast to healthier periods like the 1970s, we get a woman’s culture that smacks of high school. Ew, a creep, ew, ew. I remember a message board I was on where a woman bemoaned the fact that no one wanted to date her on OK Cupid. Then she… Read more »
Sorry, Tobe. I meant Ben.
I do not believe the notion of the predatory male is due to sex-negative feminism. It has been around much longer, at least since the Victorian era (back then when it was “decided” that women have no sex drive and are therefore creeped out by men having one), or maybe even further. Somebody once mentioned the 18th century as starting point. The guilt of the sex-negative feminism movement was that they adopted those very conservative notions uncritically, not challenging their own patriarchal way of thinking. They did it not as feminists — actually in doing so they failed in being… Read more »
At what point are feminists responsible for their mistakes as feminists? Constantly appealing to internalised remnants of the patriarchy just looks like buck-passing.
Excellent, excellent piece of writing Harris O’Malley!
“Creepers” don’t “have to reform themselves”. All too easy for an outsider to say when it requires no personal investment on your part and everything on theirs. The fact is, the situation could be just as easily resolved if the recipients of “creepiness” were more open and accepting of it as if the “creepers” stopped being so. Both outcomes require one or other of them to uproot their entire way of interacting with others… and there aren’t many incentives that could possibly make that a worthwhile sacrifice… let alone for a complete stranger. More often than not I suspect women… Read more »
The thing is… you are the one who ‘wants’ something of someone else. It could be that you want to talk to a female or more. But the core of the issue remains that it’s YOU who thinks he needs or wants something from a person who basically does not reciprocate, for whatever reason. It could be totally unfair or even racist reasons. It does not matter what it is. The point you have to see that what she sees is… a person wants something from her that she is not interested in. Fair or not is not the question.… Read more »
In fact, we all put in personal investment to not be creepy! Social interactions take time to learn for all of us. We all face rejection. We all have faced awkward moments. But most of us DO put in the time to understand what will make us not come over in creepy, desperate or weird ways. You are not being singled out in that way. The rules of creepy apply to all of us.
Even an attractive girl can become creepy by acting the wrong way. So you are wrong to suggest that other people are not making an effort to not be weird, awkward or creepy. We don’t need you to change, but if you are interested in social interactions, it would be in your best interest to learn more about this. You are the one who desires the social interaction from females. I think you might be mixing up behavior and looks. Yes, people are called ‘creepy’ based on their looks. This is not what this article is about. This is about… Read more »
The creep label has far more stigma against men than women though. Women generally do not have any idea of how bad the label can be for guys. It plays into the idea of men being sexually aggressive/violent, and in extremes it’s even said to male teachers around children. That’s why I think it’s important for people to say what they felt was creepy, it allows the other person to change far easier.
OK.. you get to be ‘creeps’, we get to be ‘sluts’.
By the way, it’s often other guys that will tell lies about guys too. I’ve had guys tell me “Oh you know this and that guy? He is a player. watch out for him”. Etc. But probably to prevent me from liking that second guy. Any type of made up gossip can be damaging. But let’s focus on the behaviors that are creepy like crossing physical boundaries.
I understand there are labels which can be harmful to women but there aren’t any that I’ve seen that can lead to major problems with your career like creep. Imagine a primary school teacher who is male, gets called a creep and rumors start. I suppose it depends on where you are though but here where I am the creep label usually gives suspicion to someone being “rapey” or sexually violent. All I ask is people be careful with how they apply it. I suggest if the behaviour is minor then maybe use the word uncomfortable and explain why (eg… Read more »
And this is why I eventually quit my job as a swim teacher and wouldn’t even consider teaching primary school. All it takes is for one parent to have a perception of you and say the wrong thing, then the rumors start, and before you know it it isn’t just your career that is finished, but your standing in the community as a normal person too. Being convicted or charged by the police is completely unnecessary in this situation, because all that is necessary for the destruction of a man’s character is doubt. This is why the word “creep” is… Read more »
@Hola,
” The rules of creepy apply to all of us.”
Not so. Do you think it applies to Ryan Gosling?
I think ‘creepy’ is a label applied far more often to men (by women) than women (by men).
I can see how Ryan Gossling could be creepy too, if he behaved in a weird way. I’ve dated some top male models way better looking than Gossling, who were practically sociopaths. They would be interesting cases for psychiatric studies. OK, you don’t like how you are not popular like Ryan Gossling, but what about all the females who are too ‘fat’ and ‘ugly’? Do you find EVERY girl attractive? I don’t understand when certain people want to date really attractive women. Date someone who matches you. Same with girls. If you really think all of this is unfair, then… Read more »
Hi Hola My compliments for this remark : ” If you don’t believe me about the creepy thing, I can definitely look my best and totally creep out a person. But I admit that most guys would first use me before they would run. See, this is the difference between men and women. Men are capable of putting their privates into people they find creepy or that they strongly dislike. For women, it would be unthinkable to have sex with a person they find creepy or that they dislike.”” Exactly. And that is why some men can not understand why… Read more »
And that is why some men can not understand why women [don’t] just walk into the nearest bar and pic up “somebody” each time they feel a longing for sex. It may be that some men don’t understand. What I have witnessed in online discussions, including GMP, is men trying to get women to understand the profound difference between refraining from sex because you don’t like any of the options, and not having any options. In the former case, it’s your choice. You could walk into a bar and pick somebody up, if you got truly desperate enough, You choose… Read more »
Good analogy, and yes, this distinction is frequently missed.
Good analogy. I find so many seem to gloss over it with the “But we don’t wannttt that type of sex”. You may not want it, but plenty of women do partake in that privilege and that doesn’t remove it’s overall privileged status allowing easier access to casual sex than what men have but simply you’re far more picky than the men. I guess in this case men may simply be more likely to be a risk taker, or maybe so many feel so starved for affection that they take what they can get.
Honestly, in my experience, it’s not that women are picky in sexual matters because they’re picky, it’s that they’re picky because sex with strangers is a lot more dangerous to women than it is to men. Above and beyond the social repercussions, where men are congratulated for any action at all while women are scrutinized for any type of sexual contact outside of a very specific set of acceptable social parameters (i.e. the monogamous, committed, hetero relationship), women stand to lose a lot more from sleeping around. Pregnancy is an obvious one, the fact that receptive partners during sex are… Read more »
Thank you for pointing out the vast schism in the physical risks of casual sex. But there’s also a large difference in the potential benefit. How are we defining sex in casual sex? Are we defining it as PIV sex, which results in a male orgasm? Or are we defining it as a variety of sexual activity, with a guaranteed female orgasm? I would speculate that when men think women have some sort of “sexual privilege,” because we can just go to the bar and pick anyone up, they’re defining sex based on their own pleasure. Men are much more… Read more »
Am I just brainwashed by old-fashioned ideas about sex? Besides the safey issue, there’s the orgasm issue. I’m guessing another major issue or difference is that in a casual sexual encounter with a stranger, a man is still pretty much guaranteed to get an orgasm out of it, but probably much less so for a woman who does it. As a general rule, sex leads to orgasm more quickly and more directly for the man in the hook-up scenario. “Any hole will do” is a much more common experience than “any dick will do” for women. Don’t assume that a… Read more »
In reply to Rick’s comment: you got it right, in my opinion. But there is also the emotional risk many women deal with, of wanting to see a casual sex partner again or even securing a relationship with him, not losing respect, getting involved when the guy just does not care, beyond having sex. Also… masturbation (for the many females who do it) is generally extremely satisfying for females. Probably more so than masturbation is for males. Masturbation in females generally results in multiple orgasms, guaranteed. But to have an orgasm with a casual friend or a stranger is a… Read more »
@Hola, “OK, you don’t like how you are not popular like Ryan Gossling, but what about all the females who are too ‘fat’ and ‘ugly’?” I really do not care about the popularity thingy Hola. I am very happy in my skin. Even my shrink told me so. I have zippy to prove to anyone. I live a great life, though humble about my success. I give of my time and money to women homeless shelters. I feel good about this work. Also, I think I am much better looking than Ryan Gosling, period. I also have a loving, giving,… Read more »
Excuse me?? What is with the prejudice regarding really physically attractive women??? Please re-evaluate your ideas there and what harm you may be causing to females who happen to be physically attractive. Isn’t that the same as people calling a person a creep for no good reason? How is what you are doing any different? You are jusding a person on appearances only and putting prejudices into the world. Do you have ANY idea what this can do to women who are physically attractive????????
*judging*… can’t even type that’s how shocking this is….
I will tell you something. Women who are very physically attractive generally are VERY picky and don’t just share their bodies with anyone. They KNOW people want to take advantage of them and they do not seek to be used as objects. It is one thing to make yourself feel better for not being able to sleep with them, but to put this out into the world is indirectly just as harming to those women as the ‘creep’ label is to some men! Careful what you say!
And yes, it has happened to me that some men thought I had had a lot of sexual partners, just based on my looks and the attention I get from males. It has really messed with my life to the point where I want to look average. I never even deserved to be seen by guys as ‘not relationship material’ based on me being ‘too attractive’?? Yo… look a little deeper than skin-deep! Do you realize most attractive females don’t even think they are?? Thanks a lot… you think only unattractive people have problems?? Try being the attractive girl toy!… Read more »
Some of the pro-feminist stuff that Gossling has said gives me some creepy vibes. I don’t really disagree with what he says, but his statements seem so perfectly calculated, so perfectly “what they want to hear” that he seems a little disingenuous.
Can I also say that I find it creepy when guys use “female” as the main noun to refer to women. Like “I didn’t see any females at the bar.” I know it’s popular to use that terminology in military and police circles, but man, does it sound kind of twisted….
agree.
This wanting.
It’s weakness. In a sense, you’ve got a punishment coming for that reason alone.
Weakness is a crime deserving punishment? Everyone has weaknesses.
Well… the main thing to remember is that… if it is YOU who wants something from someone else, HER rules apply. So the way to be liked by this female is to make sure SHE does not think you are creepy, unattractive, etc. So your goal would be to try to entertain her, charm her, appeal to her senses, etc. It’s not as simple as… you like her, so she will come your way. No. So in that respect, you DO have to change IF you want something from another person. I don’t know if I put it right? I… Read more »
It’s not wrong to want things.. but it’s wrong to feel entitled to them. Meaning, if you get the message of rejection… don’t feel like it’s the woman’s fault or that you have to convince her otherwise. Just let it go and shift your focus. Don’t hang on to this rejection or take it too personally. Guys who are generally successful with women are guys who let rejection slide off really quickly. They don’t feel like their life or their self-image depends so much on the outcome.
@Hola,
“Guys who are generally successful with women are guys who let rejection slide off really quickly. ”
They are also conventionally attractive. This means they face little rejection. They know they can just find another woman very very quickly without a lot of effort.
Don’t believe all this bragging those guys do. Everyone gets rejected. Some power-hungry people even feel more powerful when rejecting an attractive person.
Players and handsome guys get rejected cause girls know they will get used. Sometimes the girls play along, to use the guy. Is that what you want? Maybe it is.
You want to be more sexually attractive perhaps. Attractiveness is not just about looks. But either way, there are lots of things you can do to become more attractive to the opposite sex. It depends on what kinds of women you like, though.
Hola, I am very happy with my sex life. This after being in a sexless marriage for over a decade +. I have guy friends who are miserable and involuntarily celibate. My heart goes out to them. I always have them in my heart. I am not a womanizer. I am not a serial dater. I have been with only a very very few women. I am happy with this. I have a very good woman as my girlfriend of one year. For me, looks is not even in the top 5 things I seek. I like smarts, intelligence, good… Read more »
OK nice to know but, how does this even relate to the issue?
“Because they see themselves as having done nothing wrong, they attempt to shift the blame to women, calling them “overly sensitive” or insisting that they “need to get over it”.” Some women are so hypersensitive where the guy does no actual wrong and gets labelled for it. I have seen COUNTLESS times a guy has been called a creeper for his dress style, that’s it, dress style. Eg, “Pedo glasses”. Seen guys get called a creeper for saying hello and they weren’t very attractive, acting in exactly the same way as others do who don’t get the label. The hyper… Read more »
Women don’t need creepers to change. Women just want creepers not to cross their boundaries or bother them in a bad way. Sometimes it’s just as simple as, she is not interested in you. Just like guys might not be interested in certain girls. It’s not like… if you act a certain non-creepy way, that girls will be all over you, per se. Think of a girl you don’t find attractive in any way. Maybe she just isn’t your type. imagine this girl talking to you or trying to pursue you. Imagine her acting like she is obsessed with you.… Read more »
Another thing that might be a bit creepy is when people notice nervousness. Simply because… it signals that the outcome of an event is THAT important to a ‘creeper’ (socially challenged person). The ‘creeper’ is putting too much importance on something that should be fun and relaxed interaction, with a myriad of outcomes. People can pick up on subtle clues like nervousness. Women are very good at this. So really the best thing to do is to stop making social interactions so important to you and just get a little more comfortable in your own skin. I guess that is… Read more »
I think one of the toughest parts of the creep label is that it can spread to others, you get a bad reputation for something that is subjective and may not be any fault of your own. There are some that use the label to bully others. It’s also linked to sexual crimes, creeps are sexually harassing in many cases so to be labelled as such can be a real shock especially if you had no desire to hurt them. So much harder to label what a creeper truly is because of that, at least with physical assault like a… Read more »
Yes, I think the word ‘creep’ is used by some women to describe men they find unattractive. Just like guys use words to describe women they find unattractive. A true creeper in my book is someone who would grab my arm or block me from moving away, who would hint at rape, who would stalk me or follow me home, etc. That kind of stuff.
Or who would just grope me… anything regarding crossing boundaries.
@Hola,
“Yes, I think the word ‘creep’ is used by some women to describe men they find unattractive.”
Ditto. The same act can be committed by a good looking man and it be perfectly fine.
I think your definition of creepy is what it SHOULD be. Unfortunately, any man who a women deems unattractive is usually a ‘creep.’ Since women find only a few men attractive, most of us are deemed ‘creepy.’ Oh well.
You are totally right and I have had to check myself in the past too. There were guys that I found very attractive, that I allowed more ‘BS’ from than I would from others. The minute I realized, it, I stopped doing it. What can I say, women have hormones too. They don’t always make us do smart things. I am now trying life in a new way! Trying to treat everyone equally, regarding BS. Women are actually very visual creatures too. There are new studies coming out that prove they are even more visual than men. I am definitely… Read more »
Hola,
“. Women are actually very visual creatures too. There are new studies coming out that prove they are even more visual than men.”
I agree Hola. You are one of the few women on GMP who will admit this. For some weird reason being visual is assocatied with ‘objectification.’
Pretty, handsome or good looking people have a natural advantage. The only equalizer is $$$$$. Then a lot of women will look past the things in a man they see as unattractive.
I tell people when they’re being creepy, up to a moderate level of feeling threatened. However, that is not my responsibility. I am a volunteer, not an employee. So here goes: this post was creepy. It was creepy because there is an underlying thread of resentment of women. Examples: (“If women are not willing to give “creepers” a chance then they have no right to expect creepers to do any magical changing since there’s no real way to gauge if it’s working.”) So I guess we just continue this war, then? By the way, getting into healthy interpersonal interactions and… Read more »
Nice article, though one of the most important points was lost imo. To me creepiness and wierdness comes from lack of conviction, coming from a lack of presence. A charismatic guy sometimes feels as if he can ‘get away with anything’ because he fully assumes it. The ‘geek’ guy cannot, however because being trapped in mind (ego) means he seems like he is hiding something or not revealing something, it seems as if he is not being straight forward and clear, as if he has a ‘hidden agenda’. Its that ‘hidden agenda’ which would seem creepy to a girl because… Read more »
The charismatic guy is often considered creepy, too. Just doesn’t necessarily fit the stereotype.
As the women in your lives, they’ll tell you hat “hot” guys and “charming” guys can also be super creepy.
Yes hot guys can be super creepy too. Extremely so, unfortunately.
I think good-looking guys get away with more, because they fit whatever women find physically attractive. Unfortunately, they can be just as if nor more creepy in the end. So women really never know who or what they are dealing with. Which makes the first approach even more important. I think the more creepy things really do have to do with some sort of dehumanization of the female, or pure objectification. Sometimes a woman can be in a relationship before she realizes the guy thinks this way (and starts running). The creepiest guys are the ones who think males are… Read more »
A HUGE amount of creepyness is insecurity, nervousness and hesitation in action. It can be a slight delay in speech (uncomfy silence), stuttering, shifty eyes (commonly misinterpretted as signs of a liar, real liars usually keep eye contact good apparently), lingering (someone stuck trying to think of what to say, gets so caught up in figuring out what to say that their sense of time is distracted but the other person’s hasn’t and it gets uncomfy for them). Even just simple things like standing too close, standing over someone (common at school if they’re sitting on the bench and you… Read more »
Being a creeper really boils down to only thing: not taking “no” for an answer. Goes for women and men. Anything before the “no” is not necessarily creepy. But if someone says “not interested” and the initiator won’t leave, THAT is when they earn creeper status.
You are so right and I have struggled to define it. Thanks.
I’m fully aware of the fack that for the original question, coming from a female cosplayer, it’s significant to hone in on how man can often be super creepy and that’s a problem, but can we maybe step slightly away from the bit where women get a free pass. Two weeks ago a woman approached me in a bar and started talking to me. Almost immediately she started touching me, my piercings, my face, trying to push up against me. I asked her not to, even physically removed her hands from me. She persiated and even followed me when I… Read more »
RM I’m so sorry to hear about that woman in the bar, and of course about the rape. I believe the experience of men being raped by women is far more common than we’d ever really known or understood. We absolutely MUST be teaching all young people healthy boundaries starting from preschool and healthy sexual consent (yes means yes consent, as well as no means no). We must teach it to girls AND boys. There are multiple reasons – first, men deserve to be able to give enthusiastic consent whether it’s to women or men, just as women do. Second,… Read more »
Awesome comment, Ms. Schroeder. I would love to comfortably give enthusiastic consent, as well as comfortably show sexual interest without thinking I’m pressuring her or some sort of pervert for thinking women are attractive. It’s my firm belief that men’s libidos are artificially augmented by making much of our identity and even our perception of lovability based on “getting laid”. It’s done because sexually frustrated men are easy to control. That is, until they break. At the same time, they control women by constantly appealing to women’s sex appeal to men. “Are you sexy enough?” It’s not about sex, it’s… Read more »
Excellent point about how restrictions (I guess “guidelines” is more accurate.) do not go the other way. I’ve had women act towards me in ways that they themselves would find very creepy. I’ve had girls openly talk to me at work in ways that could get me fired. When discussed with anyone, including girls, I’m told “She’s just a lonely girl. Stop being such a judgmental bastard.” Of course I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Not harm no foul. But it also mildly infuriated me, because I know I could never get away with freely expressing my sexual… Read more »
I had women grab my manboobs n say they felt like tits. Was so tempted to grab back to see if they liked being dehumanized but that’s just childish. I wanted to punch em clean in the face for it but can’t do that either. It was creepy as fuck and I hated it, I felt so disgusting after that. Even had someone else call the police n talk to the school about sexual harassment over an incident they saw against me…..made the bullying far worse in school. If I grabbed back, I’d cop the charge, if I went to… Read more »
I am sorry you were sexually assaulted. That said, does this make you feel any empathy for the women who feel this way in sexual harassment situations? That their only real option is to endure and get away, rather than advocate for themselves and invoke rage at breaking gender norms (shunned? expelled? fired? raped? murdered?). This is more of a response to some other comments I’ve seen on this thread, but the logic flows well here, so that’s why I want to include it here. This is why women often don’t overtly say no, but choose to use subtle social… Read more »
Accepting a woman’s right to think that you are a creep, without treating her as if she owes you anything, is not the same as just accepting creepy behavior from women! Nobody said that it is ok for women to be creepy. How could you read that into the article above!?